Stop Eating THIS "Healthy" Breakfast (It's Making You Fat) | Ben Azadi
Ben Azadi explains why popular breakfast foods marketed as healthy actually spike insulin and promote fat storage. He discusses seed oils, metabolic damage, and how to eat for stable blood sugar instead of weight gain.
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Steak n shake who are saying, hey, we're frying our french fries in beef tallow, which is a good fat. But when I did some research on steak n shake, they pre fry their french fries in canola and soybean before it's in beef tallow.
I have not in 18 years eaten a seed oil, at least not on purpose. I've been on national news getting criticized for saying I would smoke a cigarette before I would eat a plate of french fries. If I could eat a plate of fries or smoke a cigarette, I'll take the cigarette.
If you've never smoked a tobacco cigarette before, but you've eaten 10,000 french fries, you've essentially smoked 10,000 tobacco of cigarettes because of the aldehyde content.
Today we're joined by Benazardi, a best selling author and health coach who's best known for his work with keto fasting and helping people reset their metabolism.
We know these seed oils, they're highly unstable because of the chemical nature of them. They're called polyunsaturated fatty acids. The word poly means many. They contain many double bonds.
What's your take on avocado? You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Ben. New York Times bestseller. First time this week as we're recording this. Congratulations.
Thank you, Dave. You have led the way, my friend. It's super cool. I'm very grateful.
Wow. I know how much work it is and how exciting it is and well deserved. This is a fantastic book that you've written.
Thank you.
And I want to know, given the research you've done, I think we might agree on some things, but I'm not sure. Why are 93% of Americans metabolically unhealthy?
It's a crazy stat, isn't it?
It went up from like 88% when I looked at my stuff.
It did 88% in 2018 to 93% in 2022. So it's going in the wrong direction. So why? Many reasons why, of course. I would say it starts with being a sugar burner. When your metabolism is locked in, only burning sugar and glucose, of course there's going to be high levels of insulin. And we know you talk a lot about insulin. Insulin is an energy sensor. It's this hormone that when it's elevated, signals growth. And these 93% of Americans that I call they're in a keto deficiency. They're in a fat burning deficiency. They forgot how to burn stored body fat. So when we're locked into burning glucose, it ages Us faster, we start duplicating cells faster, we reach senescent cells much quicker. And what's crazy, Dave? When I was doing the research on insulin and insulin resistance, there's a study called the Whitehall 2 study, which shows that the average person that has insulin resistance it for 6 to 14 years without their blood sugars changing at all, their fasting glucose, and even their A1C, which is insane. So we know that when your levels of insulin are elevated, it lowers nitric oxide, creates vasoconstriction, and then it triggers a cascade of metabolic disease. So I would say high insulin levels is probably the major cause and the most common cause.
You said something really important. Even if you have one of these, you know, the continuous glucose monitors, it doesn't mean anything about your insulin levels, because your insulin can be high and your glucose can be normal, or your glucose can be high and your insulin can be low. Right. And insulin does more damage than glucose. But glucose causes its own damage. What is the overinsulin damage versus over glucose damage?
Well, what's interesting with insulin when they're testing it, first of all, most doctors are not testing it, conventional doctors, because there's not a medication for high insulin. There's only a medication for high glucose. So why should we test it?
Shocking.
Shocking. And even if you do test it, well, the good news is this. It's a cheap test. You could pay out of pocket. It's like 30 or $50, but the reference range will be 3 to 28 on that insulin. Fasting is a blood test. It's a blood test, yes. But if you're over 6, to me, that's a problem. If your fasting insulin is consistently over 6, let's say it's 11 or 12 or 21, it might not be flagged as being a problem, but that's insulin resistance. And as it progresses, when what's gonna happen is first, high blood pressure is one of the most common things, and that's because we're stripping nitric oxide. As you know, it's a very important gaseous molecule that creates vasodilation, the opening of our blood vessels to allow nutrients and oxygen and blood flow to look delivered to tissues. When you have elevated levels of insulin, it constricts those blood vessels, which makes your heart pump harder. Which is what, Dave? High blood pressure. It's not the sugar. I mean, excuse me. It's not the salt. It's the sugar. It's the insulin.
Thank you. This drives me crazy. High insulin causes high blood pressure, and they blame Salt. But what happens when people get way more sodium who are insulin resistant?
It actually helps them. It helps prevents them from overeating, helps them feel satisfied, regulates their potassium and sodium levels.
It can even lower insulin over time.
It can even lower insulin. Yeah.
So I have to say I've been on about 6 grams of sodium per day for 20 years because the first talk I ever gave in public about health was about how sodium was actually good for you, of course. And I was highly influenced by Gary Taubes, who we both know. In fact, Gary, who wrote a couple fantastic books in the keto world, he helped me get my first book deal. So kudos, Gary, if you're listening.
Yeah, we love you, Gary.
Yeah. And he wrote something, I think, in the Atlantic about sodium and the connection there. If you're wanting to fix your insulin, you're going to have to read Metabolic Freedom, which is Ben's new book. You're going to, of course, cut your carbs, but adding some extra salt to your rib eye would be a really important step.
It will be.
What other minerals are going to help people with their insulin?
Well, I love fulvic and humic acid, just because, you know, it's such a powerhouse for the. For the mitochondria.
It's like there's some kind of coffee that contains those.
Can you think of which one that is Danger coffee?
Who knows what you might legit?
So, yeah, putting fulvic and humic in your coffee is a game changer because as you know, when you drink coffee, you lose some electrolytes and minerals. So brilliant marketing, brilliant idea to put that in your actual coffee. So I love that. You know what's interesting about the salt, Dave? I actually have a salt sensitivity. So even though I do. Yes.
You're in the 5%.
I am in the 5%. I know. Thank you, mom and dad.
What do you do? Okay, so let's explain this. About 5% of high blood pressure people are actually sodium sensitive. For everyone else, you just need more salt and more potassium. But if you're in that 5%, it's going to raise your blood pressure much more. And for normal people, no offense, the amount that salt could raise your blood pressure is within the error margin of a blood pressure cuff. It is nonsense. But for you, you're going to get 20 points or something for too much sodium. So how do you handle that?
And I've seen that, too. And I notice when I have too much salt, like for dinner, my resting heart rate, overnight, it's up like five or ten points. As well. So I balance that out with potassium. I'll take potassium with the sodium, and I'll find electrolytes that don't have a huge sodium to potassium ratio, an even balance. And when I go to restaurants, I'm not telling them to salt my steaks. I'm telling them to actually go moderate on the salt because I have that sensitivity. But I'm rare, so there's some workarounds, But I always take potassium. I carry it with me all the time.
What's your favorite form of potassium?
I use the one from Designs for Health. They have some capsules that I take with me. I forgot the form of it.
Citrate, probably.
Probably cidrate. And it has K2, I think, with it as well.
One of the things that drives me nuts with potassium, number one, most people are deficient in it. Number two is you have to have potassium and magnesium for each of them to work. And if you're deficient in potassium, you take magnesium until you fill your pants. You're still not going to make full use of it. But potassium matches sodium so well. And we put salt, even sea salt, on everything, and it doesn't have enough potassium. So I take about 3, 4 grams. But I use potassium bicarbonate because bicarbonate, just like sodium bicarbonate, baking soda, is associated with extending human lifespan. So you might want to add some bicarbon there.
I'm sold. I will.
In Metabolic Freedom, your new New York Times bestselling book.
Let's go, Dave.
Do you talk about things like uric acid versus acid alkaline and things like that? How deep on that side of metabolism are people going to learn in your body?
I do discuss steric acid. I reference a lot of your friend David Perlmutter's work and Richard Johnson's work.
Yeah, great, guys.
And the role of fructose, excess fructose and fried fructose corn syrup on uric acid levels and how we should be testing that. You know, it's interesting. A couple years ago, they. They banned these at home. Uric acid meters. Uric acid?
They banned those? Seriously?
Yeah.
They test strips or the meters?
The meters and the test strips.
Who bans them?
I forget who did it, but it was not available. It might have gone back to being available, but two years ago, they stopped allowing you to purchase it. There was a product called UA Shirt.
Yeah, I used to have that. In fact, I have it in a closet somewhere.
Yeah, me too. And they stopped allowing you to purchase it now. I think that might have changed. I don't know, but I remember two years they took it off the market.
Well, they did increase the size of the FDA by 38% because the DMV wasn't hiring enough. So they put those guys at the fda. But I'm pretty sure that Bobby Kennedy cleaned out the bureaucratic side because just look, if you're in regulatory or you're in government or whatever else, stop preventing me from having my own data. Like that is an actual act of sovereignty that you are interfering with. And if you take my data, I get to take your data. This is a tit for tat world. Don't fuck with biohackers. Sorry.
Let's go. I'm with you 100%. It's like, that's such a valuable tool to know your uric acid levels, which are transient, like blood glucose or fasting glucose, you're not looking at one reading, you're looking at trends. And overall, we want to see that under six. And we know that when it's elevated, it's going to lead to gout. It's going to lead to. Your metabolism is going to be blocked, to put it lightly. But the number one cause that drives up uric acid is fructose, specifically high fructose corn syrup.
Nasty stuff.
Which is nasty. It's mitochondrial poison. But also juicing. A lot of fruit is going to be a concentrated dose of fructose, which we know the liver metabolizes 90% of fructose. And you're gonna notice that When I asked Dr. Perlmutter what are the top five reasons why uric acid is elevated, he said, Number one, fructose. Number two, fructose. Number three, fructose, number four, alcohol, and number five, high purine foods. Exactly, yeah.
Now, this will. This is a little bit embarrassing, but I gave myself gout.
How?
It took me three days.
What did you do?
So I've. I was experimenting with a supplement called inosine. Have you heard of it?
No.
It's an unusual supplement, and I was looking to tweak my sleep a little bit, so I added inosine for some ATP mechanics, let's say. And I take a normal amount of my organ formula. So one ounce of organs a day, that's all the purines I get. And I don't eat fructose in meaningful amounts. I might have an occasional piece of fruit, but I'm not a alcohol guy, not a high fructose corn syrup guy. And I started taking inosine within three days. I'm like, why do I have this weird pain in my joints and my right knee swelled up in a way. I'm like, oh, my God, that was me when I was obese. And it's a very different pain than an oxalate pain, which my oxalate metabolism is trash as well. So I manage all that stuff and I don't have any pain in my body. I can do full squats, like everything. It works so good as long as I know what I'm doing and I'm going, God, I remember this. And thank God I'm a biohacker. It took another day to figure out what was going on, and then I reversed. It took about a week and a half to get rid of it, but, man, I guess I forgot what gout feels like. That was nasty.
Wow. What a good reminder, though.
I can't imagine that I was living with that in my, like, when I was 20 years old. How many young people do you think today have gout and don't even know it? They just think they hurt?
I don't know. Do you know the percentage?
I don't.
Yeah, I know that. You know, it's interesting because we have similar stories. I used to be obese as a young 20 year old as well. Well, never had gout, but I had erectile dysfunction, high blood pressure, blood sugar imbalances, and I never want to go back, just like you never want to go back. So what an important reminder that you never will go back to that way that you were living your life. Even I, you know, I was looking at photos of you, Dave, like in 20, I think Isabella Wentz had posted some photos supporting your book.
I've shifted a lot.
Yeah, you've looked completely different. Like, you look so much healthier. You're so much. You're completely aging in the. In the right direction. The opposite direction. It's just incredible to see.
I appreciate. Makes me kind of laugh because, I mean, I'm on the COVID of my book and we're going to do an interview about my book, but I'm just going to show this off for a second here.
Great photo.
I did not take diuretics. I got off an airplane and shot this. And I'm about 5% body fat according to the medical grade stuff that I use regularly. And people still like, you are not 5 or 6% body fat. You're 12. And I'm like, okay. You realize there's a small amount of health trolls out there, and no matter what you do, they're going to be like that Lane Norton guy.
Yeah, he's angry, right he's gone after me several times.
Do you think that he has erectile dysfunction? Because the metabolism things. Because I'm getting a sense that he might.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm pretty sure.
I think he has.
Scientifically speaking, yeah.
You think so?
Yeah. Well, I mean, I. I asked Chatgpt for all the logical fallacies that guys like that make. Cause there's a pattern, a recipe for health trolls, and he's just like a quintessential health troll.
Oh, yeah.
And it's like, oh, yeah, the ad hominem. Attacking people the way I just did his small penis. So. See how that worked, Lane? That worked really well on you. And you're triggered right now. And so I just got to say, like, if you're feeling triggered by me, that means you're carrying a loaded gun. But my finger's on the trigger. I love you. Okay. Anyway, I'm sorry. I got distracted. I know he's come after you. That was just a gift from both of us to you, Lane.
Yeah. Thanks, Lane. Yeah. He's made nine videos about me. I've counted all nine of them. It's fun.
You know, it makes me laugh because the pattern is there. And then they oversimplify your arguments, then they insult you, and most of the time, that dysregulates people. But if you've learned how to meditate and how to just be a New York Times bestselling author. Oh, by the way, he never has. But if you're doing something like that, you can just say, that's not what your mom said, Lane. And when you say stuff like that, because you weren't triggered, they just get triggered more and more. And it's like winding up one of those little, like, Barbies where you pull the string. It's like, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. And you can just watch him.
So that's his thing, though. That's how he's grown his follower. And it's not how we grow ours. We don't go and attack people, but.
Well, actually, I just kind of did. Does that make me a bad person?
Well, you know, you did it in a fun way here, but that's not your social media platform, is what I'm saying. You're not making videos every week about somebody you hate in our space.
No. And also, this is, in my mind, playful, because, by the way, I'm doing this in part because I know he's come after you. He's come after me for 10 years.
I've seen it.
Oh, yeah. And he just came up to me like a few days ago saying, I'm going to do a mean video about Dave. And I'm like, oh, no, you're going to do a mean video and tell more people about my work that has its own merit, just like you. So I just want to point that out that you will face more criticism now that you're a truth speaking, New York Times bestselling author. And you have my support and all the good people in the space, we all know the pattern, right? So just. You've got a lot of support.
Thank you, Dave.
And we talked about salt, we talked about insulin, we talked about glucose. And you didn't once mention seed oils. Talk to me about seeds oil.
Yeah, It's a fun conversation. What's interesting is now seed oils are mainstream, which is, I guess, great, but also really bad because there's a lot of misconceptions and people saying it's actually really healthy for you. First of all, when we talk about seed oils, we're talking about processed seed oils. Very different than unadulterated seed oil. It's very different. And chapter four, in chapter seven of Metabolic Freedom, I dive into seed oils. And of course, our mutual friend Dr. Cait Shanahan has been a leading voice here.
Kate's so fun.
She's so crude and fun, right? Yeah. And we know these seed oils, they're highly unstable because of the chemical nature of them. They're called polyunsaturated fatty acids. Of course, the word poly means many. They contain many double bonds. The more double bonds a fat contains, the more unstable they are, the more reactive they are to oxygen pressure and heat. How do they process them? Oxygen pressure and heat, the three things that make them go rancid. And of course, they add chemical agents to cover it up. Put it into a bottle, canola, soybean. And then the American Heart association puts their stamp of approval saying it is heart healthy and it is complete opposite of heart healthy. It's one of the driving forces for oxidative stress, accelerated aging. Dr. Martin Grutfeld study looking at french fries cooked in vegetable oil, analyzing the aldehyde content, showed that essentially 25 French fries cooked in vegetable oil is equivalent to 25 tobacco cigarettes smoked. Which means, I think that goes over people's heads. If you've never smoked a tobacco cigarette before, but you've eaten 10,000 french fries, you've essentially smoked 10,000 tobacco cigarettes because of the aldehyde content.
You nailed it. And I've been on national news. Getting criticized for saying I would smoke a cigarette before I would eat a plate of french fries. But that is just following the science.
Yes.
So you are 100% correct about that. And if you're listening to this going, oh, but I like French fries. I don't care. But I like. Okay, if you liked heroin, what would that mean? Right. Maybe you shouldn't do it. Except. Well, wait. Pharmaceutical heroin in low doses is a longevity drug. But let's not go there.
Is it really?
Yeah, I wrote part of a chapter about that in my longevity book. It's because blocking the opiate receptor, um, it's something that you can do with low dose naltrexone, which is a much more preferential route. Yeah, but. And so please don't use heroin or tobacco as a result of listening to this. You know, I don't use either one, but I do use nicotine.
I do, too. I actually have it right here in my pocket. But let me go back to this seed oil thing. Linoleic acid, which, of course, is this omega 6 fat. The half life, as you know, is 680 days, which means if you stopped eating it today, half of these fats will be in your cell membranes, mitochondrial membranes, two years later, six to seven years to remove it if you don't replenish the fats in your body. And they're in 80% of our food supply. And Dave, I don't know what you do when you go to restaurants. We haven't had dinner yet. But I actually use something called. I created this seed oil allergy card. Oh, sweet. And I'll give you one. But I go to restaurants and it says, dear Chef, I'm allergic to these oils. Can you please use the following alternatives?
That's cool.
And I use this because I don't want to take the hit. Yeah, but these companies like Steak n Shake, who are saying, hey, we're frying our french fries and beef tallow, which is a good fat, they're gonna jump on this seed oil free train. But when I did some research on steak n Shake, they pre fry their french fries in canola and soybean before it's in beef tallow. So when you use the allergic word or an allergy card, you're gonna make sure you don't take that hit.
I. I love it that you've got that. And. And thank you. I have not in 18 years eaten a seed oil. At least not on purpose, except for about three months. I did a little bit of Udo's oils after Meeting with Udo, so I'll give it a try.
But those are not processed.
They're completely unprocessed.
And I'm a fan of those.
And you do need a little bit of these omega 6s.
Yeah.
About 1.6% of grass fed beef is linoleic. And I was a little bit low on my laps, so I'm like, I'm going to raise my linoleic. And it's very hard to get low. Right. But it takes years of eating a lot.
You are very rare.
Yeah. So I think my ratio of six to three was down to 2.6 to one.
That's great.
Yeah, yeah.
Like four to one is a good ratio.
Four is the target. But under four is actually maybe pro inflammatory. So I overdid my omega six avoidance.
But that's rare.
It's very rare. So I could just eat some more walnuts or something.
Yeah, exactly.
It's not that hard to fix. So what do I do at restaurants? I just don't order stuff that they cook in oil. And I remember I was recently in Maryland with my girlfriend and went to a restaurant, they had beef tallow fries. I'm like, that's great. You should order those. And they brought this huge plate of fries. And I'm thinking, that's like $18 worth of tallow in there. That can be tallow fries. So then we asked like, oh, yeah, we just pour some tallow on top after we fry them in the canola fryer. So basically, tallow fries are probably not tallow fries unless you use Ben's allergy card. Can people get that card on your website?
They could get it over@seedoilcard.com.
Okay.
I also brought a whole bunch for you, Dave.
I used to say so going back 20 years ago, no one at restaurants would listen to that. They would just make fun of you for allergies. So I would say, is that cooked in canola oil? And they'd be like, no. And then I'd say, oh, thank God, because if it is, I'm going to. And I'd point to the floor. I'm going to fall down, have a seizure. I froth at the mouth. It's really inconvenient. And then they would turn white and go, let me check. And then they come back.
That's good. That's good. Yeah. So when you state that it's an allergy versus a preference, they're gonna pay attention and want to get sued.
And also, guys, be respectful with your server. I just have to say that yeah.
Tip them well. Be respectful.
Yeah, like, if you're. If you're high demand, you have to be a high tipper. And if not, you're probably a bad person.
Yeah, right on. Exactly. Treat them well. And when you have a card, they could just show it to the chef. It makes it a lot easier. And you treat them well, you do a good job. And when you. When you swap these fats out, the bad fats, with. With avocado oil, olive oil, butter ghee. Let's. You want to talk about that?
Yeah, you got to talk about avocado oil.
Okay. Let's talk about avocado oil.
Okay.
Yeah.
What's your take on avocado oil? Because this. This is always a conundrum for me.
Yeah. Well, organic cold pressed avocado oil. It's a monounsaturated fat, so of course it has a single double bond. So it's a more stable than poly, but not as stable as saturated fat.
But is it really mono. It's a substantial amount of linoleic in there.
It is, but if it's not processed the way that canola and soybean is. So then for salad, hexane, they're not, right? Yeah.
You could use it for salad, but not for cooking.
Yeah, No, I like it for salad dressings, like Primal Kitchen products.
There you go. Yeah. Mark's. Mark Sisson stuff. Mark was just on the show.
Mark is my neighbor down in Miami. Yeah. So I love Mark. Yeah, he's great.
Old, old school biohacker.
Yeah. He is the father of metabolic flexibility. We got to give him a shout out because this book about metabolic flexibility. And we would be remiss if we didn't mention Mark 100%.
So. Thanks, Mark.
Yeah.
Now back to avocado oil. It has a high smoke point. That means I can cook with it, right?
No, it doesn't.
Thank you.
Yeah. So there was a really interesting study, Dave, that was done in New Zealand a few years ago, and they looked at polar compounds versus smoke point. Polar compounds are carcinogenic. It's what's produced when you heat these fats. And it used the top eight cooking oils. So it used avocado, canola, it used virgin olive oil, extra virgin olive oil, and it had two different trials. They heated these fats to 464 degrees Fahrenheit. They fried with it. And the other one was 360 degrees Fahrenheit for four hours. And they looked at the polar compounds. The smoke point didn't matter because these vegetable oils had the Highest smoke point. But they also produce the most of these carcinogenic polar compounds. Coconut oil was stable. Avocado oil was kind of mid.
Yep.
But you know, it was interesting. What extra virgin olive oil produced the least amount of polar compounds even though it had a lower smoke.
Lower than coconut.
Lower than coconut.
But if you smoked it, what happened?
Even at the frying point with smoke.
Where it's smoking coming off?
Yes, they did a four hour frying with it. But it has to be real extra virgin organic olive oil because all the polyphenols, the oligocanthals, oleocanthals, protect it from going rancid. But if it's cheap olive oil. No, it's not good.
It's not good. I have not recommended cooking olive oil. You can taste when it goes rancid and it goes rancid pretty easily when you cook with it. And I feel like we're cheating. So with olive oil you should remove the polyphenols or you should add polyphenols back into any other oil. So if you take tallow or ghee and you throw rosemary or oregano, which are really good antioxidants, they protect the oils similarly to doing olive oil. So I will never cook with olive oil because why would you waste all those precious antioxidants you're supposed to be eating?
Fair point.
And I take 100 milligrams of hydroxytyrosol, which is the active compound in olive oil anyway, which is about a thousand bottles worth. So I feel like we're at the stage with olive oil like we were with wine. Wine has resveratrol. Therefore I'll get drunk off my ass and give myself cancer and aging and high uric acid and all the crap that alcohol causes. So cooking with olive oil is the same dumb thing. Don't do it. Cook with butter or ghee or whatever and just add some herbs.
Yeah, I just take a shot of olive oil or sometimes put it in my coffee too. I like the taste of it. Ew, dude, it's not bad.
Oh, man. Do you know about the Starbucks version of that?
I heard about it. I've never tried it.
Can I share a little story with you?
Of course.
I mean, this is your interview, but I just want to show it because you're going to laugh. So people kind of know I did oil infused coffee like MCT and butter is the thing. Right. And Howard Schultz came out with his. I forget what they called it now, the olive oil infused coffee and said this is the industry's first Oil infused coffee. Wow. Right. And so I told a little story on social media. I hired the first Starbucks employee back when I was a at Bulletproof. And she parked next to Howard at his $10 million coffee shop in Seattle. And he goes, what are you doing? And she goes, I'm working for this company called Bulletproof. They put butter in coffee. And he goes, I hope they paid you up front. And so in my social media post, I'm like, howard, we did pay her upfront. Thank you. Right. And since you're the industry's first, let me give you some hints about disaster pets.
Oh, yeah.
And then a month later, all these media reports came out that people drinking the Starbucks olive oil coffee were filling their pants because, well, there are problems if you don't do it right. So anyway, it just made me laugh. It was like the full circle ten years later thing. And, you know, I have no beef with Howard. All, you know, he's an amazing entrepreneur and he brought coffee, like quality coffee to the country and like all kinds of good stuff. But like, the story there around olive oil and coffee just triggered me to think about that in a good way.
You also coined the term disaster pants. I think I heard it from you.
No, it wasn't me. It was Kelly Starrett.
Oh, was it Kelly Stara? Yeah, yeah. Paul Leopard.
Yeah, he was on one of my shows and we were kind of joking about street grade mcts. Before he came out with the old stuff, I used to use the C8 MCT. That didn't cause that he came up with that and my daughter updated it. Now it's underwear surprise. So thanks, Anil.
Underwear surprise.
Either way, guys, if you blend too much olive oil, which I don't love the taste of, or butter, and especially mct, into your even danger coffee, you can overdo it.
So, yeah, I've seen that.
Now, do you use MCT for your metabolic flexibility or ketone supplements at all? What's your take on those?
I don't use too much MCT, but when I do, it's a C8 variety for ketone production. I talk about it in chapter 11 as a way to enhance ketone production. C8 seems to be the best for.
Ketone production and there are studies supporting that. Now there weren't when I first I could just feel the difference. So I talked about it. But yeah, okay, so you don't use much, but you recommend it as being one of the things you can do or you don't recommend. I'm good either way.
I do recommend it, especially for Somebody who's transitioning from sugar burner to fat burner. I want to help their metabolism produce ketones endogenously versus exogenously. Not that I'm opposed to exogenous ketones. I'll take that for me when I travel to help with radiation. I'll take it before an interview. I'll take it as a biohack. I'll take it before I play a lot of basketball. And when I do carnivore, which I tend to do a lot, and I play two hours of basketball in the Miami Heat, I could bonk. So I'll take exogenous ketones and it helps prevent that bonking. So I use it strategically.
Why don't you just have a little bit of honey if you're bonking in the Miami heat?
Well, when I do Carnivore, sometimes I'll do carnivore without honey. I know technically it can be part of a carnivore approach, but depending on how you do it. So if I do a strict carnivore approach, there's no sugar, no honey, but no, I love honey when I'm not doing a strict carnivore approach.
Got it. I tried a carnivore thing before Carnivore had a name. So before I wrote the Bulletproof Diet. This is the first big intermittent fasting book that talked about intermittent fasting and keto. And, well, I mean, let's face it, Dr. Atkins owned the keto the year I was born. He came out with a great book about it. I just didn't know about it until I was later in life. He missed the seed oil thing. That wasn't his thing. He missed the bad sweetener thing and even the low quality protein thing. But, you know, kudos to the innovators. So the Bulletproof Diet was probably. I know it was one of the first big keto books, if not the first and certainly the first big intermittent fasting book. But before I wrote this because I'd been working on keto for years trying to lose the 50 pounds I couldn't lose. I lost 50 pounds in three months on old fashioned keto. And the other 50 pounds took 10 years of tweaking. So it was about metabolic flexibility. And you've got so many updates in metabolic freedom in your new book, which is great and thank you for doing all that work. What I found was I could go full keto and I did it where I was. Or not full keto, I could go full carnivore. I guess Carnivore plus, butter, I was still doing because I just was trying to get enough calories in. So I was doing, yeah, like 4 or 5,000 calories a day. I was doing less sleep. And I felt just amazing and grew my first six pack, which was amazing. I posted a picture of it, and then Joe Rogan said it wasn't my six pack, which was kind of funny. Like he was in the I hate Dave phase of our relationship. And I'm like, what did I do? But in fact, it was on a trip to Singapore when I took that picture. I remember it. And so I'd grown these abs going, God, I'm just doing this thing, and I feel so good. I'm not going to stop. But after three months, I realized I'd given myself leaky gut. I developed an egg allergy. I was just not sleeping. I was sleeping with a headband that would track my sleep, and my sleep just went all to hell.
Was it just red meat and butter that you were doing?
Yep.
Okay.
Yeah. And I think what happened is that I just didn't have any more lining of my gut, which is made out of polysaccharides. Right. And so then Akkermansia starts to tunnel through and, like, you can get leaky gut. I did get leaky gut. So that was what led me to recommend cyclical keto in the bulletproof diet. So what? It's a long story, but here's the big question for you. What is the right amount of time to do Carnivore before you cycle out of it, or do you recommend just endless Carnivore?
I don't recommend endless Carnivore or endless keto at all. And I speak at a lot of keto conferences and do keynotes, and my. Yeah. My colleagues do not agree with me.
It makes them very angry, doesn't it?
Yeah, they just. They think I'm wrong about this. It's another form of metabolic inflexibility, by the way, only burning fat.
Thank you. It is another form. Now, I gotta ask you this question. You've noticed that vegans are very easily angered.
Yeah.
Have you noticed that people have been in ketosis for a year straight are also easily angered?
Yeah, I have noticed it. Yeah.
I wonder what's going on with that.
Yeah.
I wonder if metabolic inflexibility equals mental inflexibility.
Yeah, it does.
I believe it does.
And hormones, you know, to the carnivore thing. I did an experiment last year, Dave, and I've done Carnivore 40 days, 30 days since like, 2019. But last year, I decided to do 90 days. So three months similar to yours. But before I went into it, I did extensive blood work on day one. I did a full lipid panel, thyroid panel, inflammatory markers. It was like $3,500 worth of blood work. I did a stool test on day one, and I put on a continuous glucose monitor on day one. And I also had all my oura ring stats to see what it looked like before and then after. And then I did 90 straight days of a carnivore diet. Wasn't just meat and butter. It was all red meat. Poultry, it was eggs, and it was sheep and goat dairy, but no plants, no fiber.
Dairy helps a lot because you get some carbs from that.
It does, yeah, it does. But no. No vegetables, no plants, no fiber. And when I, When I got the stool test results back, it was about three weeks into already being carnivore. Wasn't just meat and butter. It was all red meat. Poultry, it was eggs, and it was sheep and goat dairy. But. But no plants, no fiber.
Dairy helps a lot because you get some carbs from us.
Yeah, it does, but no. No vegetables, no plants, no fiber. And when I, When I got the stool test results back, it was about three weeks into already being carnivore. My. My diversity was. Was average. It wasn't great, it wasn't poor. It was average. But the recommendations on that stool test said less keto, less meat, more plants, more fiber, more polyphenols. The standard way of thinking, that's how you increase diversity. I did the complete opposite. I kept going for 90 days just doing carnivore. And then when I retested on day 90, the same stool test, you would think that it would have shown a disaster. Like, it would have seen a decrease in my gut microbiome diversity. My diversity actually increased. And I developed five keystone bacteria on day 90 that didn't show up there on day one and seven core bacteria on day 90 that didn't show there on day one. The. The chief scientific officer, like, reached out to me.
Was that biome or which it was.
It was Tend Health. Okay. They're a smaller company. But their chief scientific officer reached out to me because he. It changed the way he viewed the gut microbiome. Now, with that being said, if I would have continued doing that approach, I think I would have seen the opposite effect where my diversity increased and it would lead to problems. But that seemed to have been a good sweet spot for me, the 90 days. But, but here's the interesting thing. About the cholesterol panel. Oh, yeah, let's get into that. Because my total cholesterol on day one of the carnivore approach was already over 300. I tend to eat a lot of fat, and I. I'm. I'm a responder to that. Not a big deal. My LDL was 150 on day one, and on day 90, my total cholesterol went to 450, and my total LDL went to 350.
So there are people who are freaking out right now.
Yeah, yeah. Heart attack, stroke.
Okay, so Nick Norbis was just on the show talking about guys just like you. Okay, tell me about that.
I am what. What Nick and other researchers call a lean mass hyper responder.
Okay.
And if I would have shown those labs to a cardiologist or a conventional doctor, they would have freaked out. Somebody watching and listening right now is probably like, dude, that's. That sounds dangerous. First of all, total cholesterol is almost meaningless. Number more people die from heart disease with normal to low cholesterol than high cholesterol.
Yes.
Total LDL is also kind of a meaningless marker if you didn't look at the panel, the particle sizes. So I got the NMR profile where I looked at the particle sizes. Pattern A is the good large and fluffy LDL particles that go right through your arteries. It doesn't cause any damage. Almost all of my particles were pattern A versus the pattern B. The small sticky that we don't want. So I got the pattern sizes done, and it looked really good. But I also got my HDL done, and that was over 60 both times. My triglycerides were below 70, both times protective. My C reactive protein was under 0.5 both times protective. Homocysteine was in the single digits both times protective. And fasting insulin, Although it's not a direct inflammatory marker, to me, it's a very important inflammatory marker. It was 3.2 both times.
There you go.
Sensitive. Right? So when we looked at the full picture and I had Dr. Philip Ovadia. Do you know who that is? He's a. He's a carnivore heart surgeon who wrote a book called Stay Off My Operating Table. He's based out of.
Oh, interesting. I haven't interviewed him. Okay.
Okay. Yeah. So I would connect you if you want, but he reviewed my labs because I wanted to bring somebody who's done 5,000 heart surgeries. And he said, in a nutshell, and you can watch this on YouTube, I put all my labs on there, but he said, in a Nutshell, you were healthy on day one before you started Carnivore, and you were at low risk of heart disease on day one. After 90 days of Carnivore, you were even healthier and even lower risk of heart disease on day one, even though.
You had such high cholesterol.
Correct.
From a heart surgeon.
From a heart surgeon, yes.
See? So many people. Guys, play this part twice. Just hit rewind for 15 seconds. If you're worried about high cholesterol, it's the inflammatory markers. That's where it's at. I remember back in my late 20s, I must have been about 30, and I'd started doing all this. This kind of dieting. I went into one of the first longevity doctors there was the same one who said, dave, your testosterone is lower than your mom's. He put me on testosterone story. Yeah. It's a true story. Yeah.
Geez.
And it. It helped me so much to get my testosterone levels back where they should be. And almost every young man and actually young women, they're in that same situation right now. I know where you feel like crap was because you don't have the hormones to feel good, but I was an early adopter of Low Tide. Well, what. When he looked at my labs, he just scratched his head. Same thing. My triglycerides, like, 39 or something, because I wasn't eating fructose and very many carbs. And my HDL was 87 or something. This is going back 25 years. So I'm. But these are pretty well stuck in my head. I don't remember what the LDL was, but my total was probably like, 250, 260 or something. And you just scratch his head. And he said, well, your blood panels are technically disordered but low risk. And it was like, they're not supposed. You're not supposed to do that. Right. And that's that thing where just because the average looks like something. I don't care about average, because no one listening to this is average. We're all some mix of. Some of our. Some things are above, some are below. And what you want to do is, well, what are the things that make you an outlier with low risk? And that might mean you have high hdl, which is highly protective. Right. And to your point, try Carnivore. Get your labs. I think 90 days at the upper limit of where you'd want to do it.
Yeah. I agree. Unless you have, like, severe autoimmune.
Yeah. And even then, I would suggest that you do 30 days and then see what happens. Because even if you have severe autoimmunity, which I have had, and I still have a bunch of autoimmune stuff, which.
Autoimmune do you have?
I've had Hashimoto's. I got. I've gotten rid of my markers a few times, but they'll come creeping back. It'll just expose people to toxic mold. If you have HLA Dr.4 thing, like you're going to get some autoimmunity. So that's, that's an annoying thing. And there's probably a few others that float around in there. Just runs genetically in the family and all. And I'm just highly resilient to that stuff compared to any point in my life. And it's something I actively manage because I know that it's one of the things that I'm susceptible to.
Same I have Raynaud's and erythromylgia.
Oh, interesting. Raynaud's. The cold hands kind of thing, right?
Yep.
I used to get incredibly cold hands and feet to the point that I would have probably qualified if I'd have been diagnosed with it. I don't have it anymore with a cold exposure and training and all that stuff. But it took a long time and enough thyroid hormone.
Yeah.
And there's all these things where everybody listening to this, you're not normal. If you look at 10,000 variables in your biology, there are some where you have weaknesses and some where you're extra resilient. So you get your metabolic freedom, get your metabolic flexibility down. So now your mitochondria can help to fill in the gaps and then find out, don't eat that food, it will trash you. In my case, don't take. That's not good for me.
Yelp.
But it might be really good for you.
Right. Who the heck knows? That's right.
So data driven approaches work. And being cautious of something like fasting, maybe starting with a 30 day fast is a bad idea. Or even a 10 day fast. Right. And with keto, do it for a week. Or with carnivore, do it for a week, do it for a month and go in and out. What I found when I was doing carnivore ish things, when I started working on my longevity book, there's very clear associations with the amount of gut bacteria and the abundance, the different number of species, the diversity that those. The higher those are, the younger you are biologically. So, like, what can I do? So I took a combination of prebiotics every day in my coffee and magically I quadrupled the number of species while I was on a fully keto diet.
How long did that take?
Oh, it took about a month.
That's it.
It's not that hard. Try taking 40 grams of prebiotic fiber every day of mixed types.
Did you notice a difference in how.
You felt I should? I definitely noticed a difference. How I pooped. I've never had a hard time pooping on a carnivore diet or a keto diet.
Same.
Not a problem for me.
Same.
But they're definitely healthier, let's say. Okay, some of my inflammation markers went down. I'm also. I want to go deep with you because the act of writing a book, especially one with as much detail as metabolic freedom, it makes you learn the content so deeply so it's all fresh in your mind. I'm torn about gut bacteria. So I have an early advisor, investor and huge proponent of VIOME and getting the data right. And I've recommended that test I don't know how many times. Naveen, his dear friend on the board at Upgrade Labs, he'll be at the biohacking conference so they can show me what's going on. It was their test that showed what was there. But then I also look at germ free mice. Germ free mice have no gut bacteria. They're completely sterile and they live in little bubbles and you can feed them as much food as they want and they're just lean and ripped and just super powerful. And as soon as you put some mouse poop in there, they just get obese and get diabetes. So why are they so lean, ripped and metabolically healthy when they don't have any bacteria?
Yeah, I don't know. That's an interesting question. I kind of go back and forth with the gut bacteria conversation too. I used to think it was everything like the king, queen and everything in between of longevity. The more diverse your gut bacteria, the better it is for you. And there might be some components to that, but I'm also seeing that it's the type of bacteria. Of course we know Akkermansia is, is the skinny bacteria.
It's either good or bad though, right?
Yeah. Right. There's a balance there. So I think it's not about total, like increasing diversity total, but the right amount, the right.
Yeah.
Type of bacteria in relation to different bacterias like Bacterioides to Akkermansia and looking at the ratios which you have to understand when you look at it. But the thing about the gut microbiome testing, Dave, the gut microbiome is always changing. I Could do a stool test today and then do it again in seven days and then in 14. It'll continuously change. And it's hard to kind of get a good accurate picture unless you think definitely. But that's what I've seen.
It can change as little as three days. And there are some species that take longer to change. And the one company that would know this better than anyone is viome. I think they have a million plus samples now. So we have enough of a data set that. Oh my gosh, the knowledge there is incredible. But I just realized that I'm opposed to mindless diversity. Yeah, it's like this. Oh, we need more diversity. So we want a psychopath, a sociopath, a terrorist. Right. An arsonist. Right. Because we gotta make sure that they're all represented here. I'm like, no, I want curated diversity where we're choosing like a team of the right team members that have all the different skill sets that we want in our gut. And I want this one that makes glutathione and this one that makes propionic acid, this one that makes butyric acid. Right. And I want them to be all competing with each other and like friends and whatever. But just saying I have more, it seems a little bit childish.
Yeah. It's not giving you the full picture. That's why when I did my report, I was looking at the keystone bacteria, the core bacteria, and then the ratios in between those. That's the full picture. That's the best way to do it.
Do you recommend prebiotics or soluble fiber?
I like. It's for some people. Yes. Some people who have severe leaky gut intestinal permeability. Sometimes it could create some irritation in the gut lining. I like it personally though, I'll take it. I'm really fascinated with you taking you said 40 grams of the prebiotics in a month and seeing that quadruple. You said quadrupled your.
It quadrupled it. It was a mix of larch, arabinogalactin and mostly acacia gum and hydrolyzed guar gum.
Okay.
Yeah, those are. Each feeds different groups. You could also have added some like green banana flour, but not too much because of oxalate.
Interesting. You know, I think a hidden way or not talked about way to increase healthy gut bacteria are stressors to the gut microbiome like fasting or even red light.
Yes.
Cold plunge sauna. I think if we stress it this is besides eating different foods, we could create this diversity. Fasting is one of my favorite ways to create a healthy Gut microbiome.
Totally.
It's incredible what you can do. And I, in chapter seven of Metabolic Freedom, it's all about fasting. And I talk about energy diversion, where you're not. When you're not eating food, you know this. You talk about this for a very long time. It takes a lot of energy and bandwidth and blood flow to. To digest food.
Correct.
So when you don't eat, let's say 14, 16 hours without food, all that energy that was being spent on digestion is now being diverted towards healing. Energy diversion.
Correct.
So it resets the gut microbiome. Of course, there are studies on mice showing 24 hours in a fast creates intestinal stem cells that are produced. So I think fasting is an underrated tool for the gut microbiome.
I love your perspective on that. There's something else that is maybe the red herring. I want to mix my metaphors like the red elephant in the room.
What is it? What's the red elephant, Dave?
Saturated fat escorts lipopolysaccharide bacterial toxins across the gut more effectively than anything else. Yet you and I are fans of saturated fat. How do you, how do you respond to that?
Well, I think when you have saturated fat in combination with carbohydrates, that is the issue. High fat, high carb.
Because the carbs feed the bacteria more, that create more lps.
That's part of it. But also the Randall cycle will. Will prioritize the. The, the glucose versus the fat. The fat will pull up in the bloodstream, raising triglycerides and raising LPS levels.
Correct.
So when you have high saturated fat with a low carbohydrate diet is incredible for your body. It's not going to raise lps.
It is. Well, it won't raise LPS in the gut, but it does stress gut bacteria.
Yeah, but it is a stress bad.
Well, stress increases LPS if you have the species present that make lps. So part of it, I think, may come down to everything you said and gut barrier function.
Yeah.
And for that, if you're on a carnivore diet, there's this thing, they sometimes call it animal fiber, which is collagen protein.
Yeah.
And having some collagen but not too much is a really good idea.
I've heard you say, and I want to get some clarification here. You said, I think the threshold was 30 or 40 grams of collagen. It's too much.
It's likely 20, but it could be 30 or 40 if you're on a high protein diet. So if you're not on a high protein diet, it'd be 20. If you're on a high protein diet, it's 30 or 40.
Why is that?
Because the proline and hydroxyproline that's present in collagen can go down the oxalate formation pathway.
Ah.
And so if you're an old school paleo person or even, you know, my bulletproof diet book is now, what, 14 years old or something? I mentioned oxalate and lectins and a lot of things. There's been whole branches of biohacking about them since then. They're all in the first chapter. But I under indexed the importance of oxalate as a toxin compared to things like lectins. They're both important, Right? But oxalate is a toxin for everybody on the planet. And some people clear it a little bit better than others, but it will kill anybody. Lectins, either you're sensitive to nightshades or you're not. Right? So there are people, I can eat that one all day long and nothing bad happens. And other people, they eat it and they get arthritis.
Right?
So it's very, very, it's very selective. So if you're doing things like xylitol, which I was also a fan of, that also goes into oxalate, you're doing collagen, and some people clear it a little bit better than others, but it will kill anybody. Lectins, either you're sensitive to nightshades or you're not. Right? So there are people, I can eat that one all the time, all day long, and nothing bad happens. Other people, they eat it and they get arthritis.
Right.
So it's very selective. So if you're doing things like xylitol, which I was also a fan of, that also goes into oxalate, you're doing collagen, and then you're eating a lot of these paleo foods. Certainly I've talked about kale forever because the fetishization of kale is just like morally repugnant. Okay, I'm just kidding. And then you're eating a lot of these paleo foods. Certainly I've talked about kale forever because the fetishization of kale is just like morally repugnant. Okay, I'm just kidding. But finish is higher than kale. But kale is like waved around as a health food when it's the dumbest food on the planet. And I've talked on, actually on the Joe Rogan show about which forms of kale are higher in oxalate. Versus lower in oxalate. So if you're. You're like a kale masochist, you can eat dino kale, like the dark dino kale versus the lacy kale, which is the worst. But, like, there's no reason to do that. That I can find. There's all kinds of downsides, but oxalate's one of them. And then you have raspberries and you have almonds. And like so many of these. In fact, almost every single low gluten flour is exceptionally high oxalate.
I know that buckwheat dude. When I was doing keto hardcore in 2015, 2016. Almond flour. Almond flour.
It will mess you up.
You know what happened to me? I was getting reoccurring styes in my.
Eye that is absolutely 100% caused by oxalate noise coming out through your tear ducts.
It would happen year after year. And it's so painful. It's so ugly. And when I got rid of all these oxalates, or I shouldn't say get rid of. When I dramatically.
You don't have to get rid of. Decreased it 200 milligrams a day. Upper limit. Yep.
I haven't had a sty in years. I thought I was like touching my hand at the gym and touching my eyes, and I realized it's actually the freaking almond flours. Almond flour. I was consuming at a high rate, so my body was dumping those oxygen.
And sweet potatoes.
Yeah, I didn't do too much of those. It was, for me, it was the almond flour.
I definitely over promoted sweet potatoes. I said, look, the two lowest toxins are white rice and sweet potatoes, because sweet potatoes have more nutrients and they're better for you than white potatoes, which have oxalate and lectins. But unfortunately, I was overdoing those as well. So I've doubled down on the blueberries and maybe don't eat the raspberries, which are exceptionally high.
They are.
And I look at this and then I look at people who read your book, read any of the kind of keto paleo in our quadrant of the map things, and we're going to get metabolic flexibility and we run a risk of getting oxalate sensitivity if we eat too many of these alleged superfoods. But then I compare this to the way I was when I was a vegan or raw vegan, or all respect to the medical medium guy. I'm sure he's got his connection to the angelic realms and all that, but his connection to nutrition is from the 1970s and it is not okay to do that kind of thing. It will mess you up. And it takes, like you said in your book, 680 days to get rid of half the bad omega 6 fats in your body. Right. And you're one of the few guys who knows that number. I put it in the bulletproof diet too. And it's an old study from Ray Pete actually found that in the 1950s. And I think Ray Pete's half brilliant and half insane.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, interesting. It's got quite the cult following too.
Yeah, but like, yeah, I went down that path in the 90s and like, well, all the people who are on that right now, like, you'll see what happens. So that said, that number 680 days, if you start on a medical medium or if you start on a plant based sort of, it's going to take a little while for it to catch up, just like it did for me.
I felt quite the cult following too.
Yeah, but like, yeah, I went down that path in the 90s and like, well, all the people around that right now, like, you'll see what happens. So that said, that number 680 days, if you start on a medical medium or if you start on a plant based sort of, it's going to take a little while for it to catch up, just like it did for me. I felt great on Carnivore and I did it for six months and I'm like, what has just happened to my body? And the recovery period can be several years, especially from plant toxins and the recovery period from excessive carnivore that gives you leaky gut. It's going to be faster, but you may have allergies that you have a hard time getting rid of. I'm still sensitive to eggs. Great on Carnivore and I did it for six months and I'm like, what has just happened to my body? And the recovery period can be several years, especially from plant toxins and the recovery period from excessive carnivore that gives you leaky gut. It's going to be faster, but you may have allergies that you have a hard time getting rid of. I'm still sensitive to eggs.
Yeah, yeah. No, it's interesting. The medical medium guy, he's very popular. I saw him post the other day on Instagram. Somebody shared it with me. Wild Blueberries removes heavy metals from your brain was the post. I haven't seen one study on humans that have has shown that. But if somebody comes across that and they think they're removing Heavy metals from wild blueberries. Look, I love wild blueberries, but it's not. Yeah, no, it's interesting. The medical medium guy's very popular. I saw him post the other day on Instagram. Somebody shared it with me. Wild blueberries removes heavy metals from your brain was the post. I haven't seen one study on humans that have has shown that. But if somebody comes across that and they think they're removing heavy metals from wild blueberries. Look, I love wild blueberries, but it's not pulling mercury and cadmium from your brain and aluminum at all.
Can I be really controversial?
You always are. Go for it.
I used to love wild blueberries, but now I don't.
Ah, why is that?
Because they are moderate and sometimes even high oxalate food. And organic blueberries are not. Because all plants, even coffee, they inkling.
Mercury and cadmium from your brain and aluminum at all.
Can I be really controversial?
You always are. Go for it.
I used to love wild blueberries, but now I don't.
Ah, why? Why is that?
Because they are moderate and sometimes even high oxalate food and organic blueberries are not. Because all plants, even coffee, they increase the amount of protective compounds they make based on the amount of predation and stress they are under. So you have a drought, you have fungus in the soil or on the plant, you have insect threats. The more of those there are, the more even just big temperature variations, the more the plant becomes protective. And the more protective sometimes, okay, it makes more nicotine, it makes more caffeine, it makes more increase the amount of protective compounds they make based on the amount of predation and stress they are under. So you have a drought, you have fungus in the soil or on the plant, you have insect threats. The more of those there are, the more even just big temperature variations, the more the plant becomes protective. And the more protective sometimes, okay, it makes more nicotine, it makes more caffeine, it makes more polyphenols. But it turns out blueberries in addition to more polyphenols, when they're wild, they also make a lot more oxalates. And I found that when I carefully pay attention to oxalate, I have zero pain in my body. And what's really interesting is viome picks up oxalate sensitive polyphenols. But it turns out blueberries, in addition to more polyphenols, when they're wild, they also make a lot more oxalate. And I found that when I carefully pay attention to oxalate, I have zero pain in my body. And what's really interesting is viome picks up oxalate sensitivity for me not based on my gut bacteria alone, but based on looking at my mitochondrial function and things like that. So different people have different levels of sensitivity to oxalate. So for me, I tested a whole bunch of blueberries that are wild versus organic, and my test is where I've had joint replacement or joint repair surgery from an old yoga injury. It either hurts or it does activity for me, not based on my gut bacteria alone, but based on looking at my mitochondrial function and things like that. So different people have different levels of sensitivity to oxalate. So for me, I tested a whole bunch of blueberries that are wild versus organic, and my test is where I've had joint replacement or joint repair surgery from an old yoga injury. It either hurts or it doesn't based on my oxalate intake.
Insane.
So blueberries are great, but what is the number one thing you believed about health that you no longer believed after writing Metabolic Freedom?
That the metabolism operates in speed.
What does that mean?
The metabolism doesn't necessarily operate by fast or slow. It's either efficient or inefficient.
It doesn't. Based on my oxalate intake. Interesting. So blueberries are great, but what is the number one thing you believed about health that you no longer believed after writing Metabolic freedom?
That the metabolism operates in speed.
What does that mean?
The metabolism doesn't necessarily operate by fast or slow. It's either efficient or inefficient.
Ooh, I love this.
Okay, so there's a study done By Duke University, 2021, 6,800 people in the study, worldwide, worldwide study involved multiple countries. And it looked at in these thousands of people from age one Dave all the way to age 95 and everybody in between using a gold Ooh, I love this. Okay, so there's a study done By Duke University, 2021, 6,800 people in the study worldwide, worldwide Study involved multiple countries. And it looked at in these thousands of people from age one Dave all the way to age 95 and everybody in between using a gold standard for metabolism testing. If it was a urine test measuring their metabolic rate and their metabolism. And the study showed that between ages 20 and 60, there were no significant changes in the metabolism whatsoever in the speed in either slow or fast. Because a lot of people are using an excuse, oh, I'm 50, nothing I can do about my metabolism. It slowed down because of age, etc. The standard for metabolism testing, if it was a urine test measuring their metabolic rate and their Metabolism. And the study showed that between ages 20 and 60, there were no significant changes in the metabolism whatsoever, in the speed, in either slow or fast. Because a lot of people are using an excuse, oh, I'm 50, nothing I can do about my metabolism. It slowed down because of age, et cetera. The study went on to say that once they reach age 60 and and, and beyond, there's a 0.7% decline in metabolic efficiency every year after age 60. But here's the reason why you're going to love this. It said the reason study went on to say that once they reach age 60 and and, and beyond, there's a 0.7% decline in metabolic efficiency every year after age 60. But here's the reason why you're gonna love this. It said the reason why we see this decline is loss of muscle mass.
Right.
So if you preserve your lean muscle mass, build it, preserve it. If you're under 60 or if you're over 60, start building it, you could be 95 years old with the same metabolism as when you were 25 years old. It's not about speed. And on top of that, the animals in the wildlife that have the fastest metabolism have the shortest lifespan. So it's not about speeding it up. It's not about fixing a slow metabolism. It's about having a flexible, efficient metabolism. That's something that I didn't believe before.
It is so cool to hear you say that. It's metabolic efficiency. How good of a job do you do of turning 30 pounds of air and some food into heat, electricity and other building blocks? Right. If you're good at that, you're going to live a long time. And if you're bad at that, it's not going to work.
That's right.
And when you say things like turtles with a slow metabolism, halibut, some of these long, long lived species, they have very slow metabolism.
Lobsters too. Yeah.
Okay, let's get a little bit controversial.
Okay, let's go.
Doesn't it then follow that you should lower your metabolic rate? Like maybe keep your body temperature down to 94 degrees?
Like somebody in the space that we know?
Oh, no, Brian's been on me. I'm talking about Brian Johnson.
Okay.
Brian's a friend and we need lots of people in longevity. And I love his rigor. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but that's okay. I probably don't agree with all of yours either. It's not about agreement. I can be friends with people who even vote differently than me.
Exactly. Yeah.
Actually, I'm not sure that voting changes anything, so, whatever.
I'm having lunch with my sister after this. She's a hardcore liberal, by the way.
Exactly. And I love her.
She loves me.
Thank you for being an adult.
Yes, exactly.
So, Brian, love you, brother. And sometimes you're fucking weird and so am I. And that's all good.
Also, it makes you and him brilliant, too.
And you, man.
Thank you. Thank you. Now, should we slow down our metabolic rates then? Lifestyle.
Exactly.
No, because it's not about speed, it's about efficiency. So, no, we shouldn't. We know the Biosphere 2 project. You remember that study done. Absolutely. They controlled every calorie for, I think it was two years or it was over a year.
I met someone who was in that.
Oh, did you? Okay, so what ended up happening? Yeah, they activated their sirtuins, their longevity genes, the FOXO genes, and it showed these biomarkers of longevity are activated. Great. But what happened to their organs? What happened to their quality of life? Their organs shrunk, their thyroid slowed down, their testosterone plummeted, their quality of life was decreased. So, yeah, maybe if you find ways to slow your metabolism down, it might extend your lifespan, but will it increase your health span? No, it's going to do the opposite. So I know you're all about health span and lifespan, and I don't think it's about slowing the metabolism to accomplish both.
It doesn't seem like that's a good idea because, you know, metabolic freedom and metabolic flexibility, that means your body can turn on heat when it needs it.
That's right.
Right. And if you're suppressing your body temperature, I don't think that's a good thing. For a long time, when I was quite unhealthy with chronic fatigue and all.
So if you preserve your lean muscle mass, build it, preserve it. If you're under 60 or if you're over 60, start building it. You could be 95 years old with the same metabolism as when you were 25 years old. It's not about speed. And on top of that, the animals in the wildlife that have the fastest metabolism have the shortest lifespan. So it's not about speeding it up, it's not about fixing this.
In my late 20s, early 30s, my average body temperature was 96.8. And if you're not from the US, that's substantially low.
Yeah, it is.
It should be 98.6 in Fahrenheit. And it took me about 10 days to raise my body temperature set point. And I used a protocol designed by One of the members of the longevity group that I ran the nonprofit there in Palo Alto, he was an industrial control systems engineer. He goes, oh, systems work on set points. Like original biohacker thinking, right? So it was 10 days, it was hellish. I wore parkas all the time. I drank only super hot water. I took. Took relatively high doses of thyroid and just sweated my ass off. And I did that. And it was a defined protocol. And, guys, you probably shouldn't do this without electrolytes and doctors and all that kind of stuff. And at the end of that, my body temperature was 98.6 again, and I felt so much better. And the reason is that enzymes in the body only operate within a very narrow temperature range. So if you have a fever, some enzymes turn off, some turn on. Not if you're suppressed, enzymes turn off. Right. So I was just wondering if people are fasting or they're doing cold plunges, which are things that you write about in Metabolic Freedom, what do you think that's doing to their metabolic flexibility?
I think in the right dosage is incredible if they stay within the hormetic zone. And in. In your book, heavily meditated, you talk about the bicep protocol. Is that what it's called?
Yeah, it's not like this bicep.
Yeah, it's intentional stress, right? Correct. Which we'll talk about next. But as long as you stay within the hormetic zone with fat, fasting is a stressor.
Correct.
Doesn't mean it's bad unless you do too much of it. Cold plunging is a stressor. All these biohacks are stressors is what it has in common. But if you do too much fasting, too much cold plunging, then it has a negative effect. I've seen. My colleague, Dr. Rob Comonerek has three patients that started doing cold plunging, and they got strokes.
Three of them, they got strokes.
Strokes, wow. Vasoconstriction. And they weren't healthy enough to go in there. And most people. You know what's interesting, Dave? I've spoken at several biohacking conferences. I haven't had the honor of doing yours yet. But when I talk about hormesis in our space, you understand hormesis, I think. I don't know. 75% of the people in the biohacking space talk about hormesis, but don't really understand it.
You know what they'll say is, dude, what doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
That's true. But unless.
Well, it's not true. Okay. Taking a punch to the Face just gives you a traumatic brain injury. That little bit of mercury, lead and cyanide did not make you stronger. It is an idiot's statement. Right. It's like, oh, I'm so tough. And I absolutely believe this. When I was 19, and there's a reason I've had three knee surgeries before I was 23, because what didn't kill me didn't make me stronger. It fucked up my knee and I had to fix it. Right. So this isn't about being indestructible. It's about being flexible. That old story, like, do you want to be the oak tree that cracks in the storm or the willow that bends? You want to be the willow that bends and probably grows really quickly when you need to and is drought tolerant, which would be metabolic flexibility. Right, right.
Yeah.
So, anyway, so I'll go.
Yeah, no, you're right. And the best way to gauge if you are adapting to these stressors or not, I think, is heart rate variability. Yes.
Thank you for saying that.
Yeah. I love hrv. It's something that I have all my clients and students track. Also resting heart rate and your sleep, and then also how you feel.
Correct.
If you're doing it wrong, doing too much, your HRV will drop, your resting heart rate will increase, your sleep will be sacrificed, and you're going to feel tired and wiped out.
Those are the signs that you're over keto, over fasting, plunging, over plunging, sauna, over exercising, overheat, all of it. Right. And people will say, what's the number one most important thing to track if you're getting your data, I usually say HRV or sleep. What do you say?
Oh, man, that is tough. Dave. If we're thinking about the stressors in the hormetic zone, I will say hrv.
Okay.
But if we're thinking about just health in general, I will say deep in REM sleep. Sleep in general.
Interesting. So amount of deep and rem.
Yeah. And then how many times you wake up throughout the night?
Okay.
But even REM. Yeah.
What's your target amount for deep in REM?
Hour 45 each.
Wow. Do you get that?
Yeah. Last night in the hotel. I got in last night to be here with you, Dave. Let's go to the stats here. I got 2 hours and 1 minute of REM, an hour and 42 of deep.
Very nice.
So I usually get an hour and a half of each on a consistent basis.
Hour and a half of each is my goal.
Yeah.
I'm usually closer to like an hour, hour and 15 unless I'm really cautious. I just travel too much, I think.
But, yeah, but I think you also spend less time in bed than I do. I've heard you say. How much time do you spend an actual bed?
It's under seven hours.
Yeah.
So for me, it's like, usually six and a half.
Me, it's like eight, eight and a half. Right. So that's how I'm. I'm getting a little bit more deep in rem. But I've also heard you say, like, more sleep is also a sign that your mitochondrial damage. So it's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.
It's a. It's a tough one because the studies really do show that people who require eight hours of sleep to feel good, they die more of all cause mortality than people require six and a half, which is the peak for longevity. That said, those studies do not track exercise. So if you're exercising or doing other metabolic stressors, you're going to need more sleep.
Yeah. And yesterday I worked out too, so that showed a little bit more sleep for me. Yeah.
So I would say you're shortening your lifespan if you didn't get eight hours of sleep because you lifted. Right. And in all these big data sets, what it really comes down to usually is toxins and cumulative life stressors. So people with fewer toxins, better mitochondria, require less sleep. Right. So it's very nuanced, but as long as you're getting those numbers, I'd be very happy with where your sleep is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you. I'm happy with it.
Yeah. No kidding. Well, you're one of those guys whose work stands for itself. You've experienced obesity, which is really important.
Mental emphasis on it.
Yep. You've had the mental issues that come with it. Right. And so now you're standing here, you just hit the New York Times list, you've written a book about metabolic freedom, what you do and what you teach people, and you can be an example of that, which is fantastic.
Thank you.
Dave and I would encourage listeners, and you're very welcome. Look at the people who are sharing advice with you. If they are angry, if they are obese, if there's other things that are just off about them, that's okay. Look at the advice they're offering. And if they're offering advice about the things they haven't been able to get working on themselves, that's still okay, as long as they will tell you why. Right. So you can go to your doctor and your doctor says, well, you should lose weight. And you're like, hey, doctor, you're 100 pounds overweight. You should lose weight. Why does your advice not work? And if your doctor looks at you and goes, I'm going to fire you as a patient, Get a new doctor. But if your doctor says, you know what? I have this dysfunction, this dysfunction, and I'm working on them, and here's my strategy, and I know what's going on, and I'm a work in progress. We are all works in progress. And so you can give people grace for that. And that said, just be discerning. Right? So if that vegan is losing their hair and is yelling at people all the time, like, do you want to be like them? Right. And yes. Am I triggering vegans right now? I'm sorry if I am.
I don't think they watch your show.
They do. Well, half their energy comes from anger. Right.
They need content. Idea.
I was a devout vegan. I only kind of rail and vegans. And I do it because I became a vegan for all the right reasons, and it trashed me. And I feel so bad when I see people doing that, thinking that they're doing the right thing. So.
Me too. I was. For a year and a half. Yeah.
In 2012, we have so much in common.
We do, Dave. Yeah, we do.
Cool.
The China Study fooled me back in 2012.
Me, too, man. That book has harmed a lot of people. Well, Ben, your work stands on its own merits. Welcome to the New York Times list. I am so happy for you, my friend.
I'm grateful to be a part of the club. Dave, thank you so much for leading the way, my friend.
Of course. Guys, if you like this episode, you know what to do. You're going to pick up a copy of Metabolic Freedom and heavily meditate it, put them on the same order, and then. And I'm really grateful if you do this, what's going to happen is Amazon is going to show everyone these two books by themselves, right? And say, look, if you buy this one, you should buy this one. And seriously, if you want to learn how to meditate and your metabolism doesn't work, guess who controls your meditation? Your mitochondria. And if you want to learn how to have metabolic flexibility, even if you eat the right stuff and your mind is tweaked, it's not going to work.
So you got to do both.
See you next time on the Human Upgrade podcast.
