The Dirty Secret Behind Ozempic: How It Wrecks Your Gut (Here’s How to Fix It) | Hannah Kleinfeld

You can predict someone's age by a lack of diversity in their gut bacteria.

Without addressing the gut, there's just so many other things that you can't really address, like you can't calm down, low grade inflammation in the body, if you have leaky gut and you keep spewing toxins into your bloodstream. So it's all connected. But the gut is a huge foundation to even things like that.

You already know your gut controls more than digestion. It shapes your brain, your immune system, even your metabolism. But here's what no one's telling you.

Unhealthy human or in an unhealthy gut, for example, you have your good bacteria, then you have opportunistic bacteria.

You're probably still doing it wrong. You take probiotics, but then they don't work. Sometimes you eat fermented foods, but they're not enough. You try to heal your gut the way I did, but the problem isn't what you think. Hannah Kleinfeld has spent years inside the microbiome industry breaking down what actually shifts gut health at a biochemical level and why a huge number of these so called gut health products really don't work. Your gut bacteria actually make decisions for you. Cravings, mood, sleep, that's today. You'll learn how to take that power back and the one upgrade that actually fixes your microbiome, maybe even for good. Because if you don't control your gut, your gut controls you.

70 to 80% of our immune system originate in the gut. And I know that if my gut is not working properly, my brain also won't be working properly. So if I started by optimizing my brain, but my gut was a mess, I really wouldn't be making any progress.

People talk about there being a gut brain and sometimes a heart brain and then a brain brain. Is there a connection between the gut brain and the heart brain that you're aware of? So ask yourself who's really in control? You're listening to the human upgrade with Dave Asprey. Hannah. If you had a choice, you had to optimize either your brain or your gut. Which one and why?

I would optimize my gut because I know how closely the gut and the brain are related and I know that if my gut is not working properly, my brain also won't be working properly. So if I by optimizing my brain, but my gut was a mess, I really wouldn't be making any progress.

If you fix your brain, does it also fix your gut?

No. But if you fix your gut, that Will have a very positive impact on your brain.

Okay. People talk about there being a gut brain and sometimes a heart brain and then a brain brain. Is there a connection between the gut brain and the heart brain that you're aware of?

Ooh, I'm. I don't think I'm aware of it. But, you know, you could argue that if your gut is leaky or inflamed and you have toxins and other bad substances leaking into your bloodstream and your heart is filthy, your heart literally pumps your blood, then of course, that would also be impacting your heart and really pretty much any other organ in your body.

There's definitely a vagus connection, the vagal nerve. And then when the gut's leaky, you get the lipopolysaccharides, and those create systemic inflammation, including in the heart and then pericardium. And so when the guts off, you're going to feel it emotionally in the heart, and you'll also feel it with anxiety in the brain, at least in my experience. Why is the gut important for you?

Wow, that's a big question for me. I mean, the more I understand about the gut microbiome, if you take my journey back to kind of where this all started, I had a really bad case of Lyme disease in my early 20s. And for anyone going through that, it involves a lot of. At least back then, it involved a lot of antibiotics, months of it. The Lyme itself destroyed my gut, amongst many other systems in my body. And throughout this experience of repairing myself and my body and kind of recovering not just from the Lyme, but also the after effects of all the medications, I really learned that my gut was such a foundation to helping me get my energy back and helping to really get me back to health. And that really sent me on this path of my wellness journey.

I had really severe toxic mold, which at the time, if I was exposed or re exposed within a day or two, like the lining of my gut would shed, and just my digestion was ruined. And I also had active lyme disease, which I think 90% of the time is a root cause for Lyme. So it's funny, you treat the mold, most Lyme will get better without antibiotics, necessarily. And I was also on antibiotics for 15 years because of chronic sinusitis and strep throat when I was a teenager. And so my gut was wrecked, similar to you, you know, mid-20s. I'm like, what is wrong with me? My brain doesn't work, my gut doesn't work. And so we're both Motivated by this. Let's not let other people go down that path unless they really want to. I've seen such an explosion in our knowledge about this. First, there's probiotics, and I've been this for 25 years, various flavors, some work, some don't work, some you don't know. And some of them actually made symptoms worse. And then we come up with prebiotics. And then I've covered the launch of some of the latest postbiotics and now we have parabiotics out there. What is the difference between prebiotic, postbiotic, probiotic and probiotic?

Right. So probiotic is the live, beneficial bacteria. The definition of a probiotic is beneficial bacteria conferring a benefit to human health or to your. To your health. And so that's the probiotic. The postbiotic is the things that are made by the probiotics. So our good gut bacteria make things like butyrate, short chain fatty acids and other helpful compounds that our body then uses. That's considered a postbiotic. A prebiotic is the food for our probiotic bacteria. So that's, you know, things you can get from your diet, things in, you know, good fiber, but it's also things that you can take as form of a supplement, as a prebiotic supplement. And then you actually also have symbiotics, which are the combination of a prebiotic and a probiotic into the symbiote. Symbiotic. And there the idea is you are adding some prebiotics to your probiotic supplement to one, feed the bacteria in the supplement and two, give some of these good fibers also for your intestines.

What about parabiotics? I've seen a few of those on the market lately.

Yeah, that's actually a term that's new to me.

This is the idea that if you take dead bacteria that they will have a signaling effect, kind of like taking a prebiotic where they're going to be a signal to your bacteria to do it. And it, it can be kind of confusing. And I like to think I've spent probably $200,000 on probiotics or prebiotics over the last 20 something years. And that seems like a lot of money. I spent 2 1/2 million dollars over 20 years on my longevity program. You don't need to do that every year, I don't think. Although maybe it would be nice or maybe it wouldn't be. So having tried all these things, this is one of the areas that actually is most confusing for me because how the heck am I supposed to know If a probiotic actually works or not. How do you tell?

Yeah, so that's a really great question. You know, so many people who we talk about probiotics, do they often say, well, I tried probiotics and they didn't work. And one of the questions I always ask as well, which one did you try? Because many times, you know, if you're just taking some random $20 probiotic off of a shelf at CVS, but you're not actually thinking about what are you trying to accomplish with this probiotic, it's pretty likely that it's not going to work for your situation. So what I'm looking for in probiotics and what omnibiotic really does as a company, we think about what are the health outcomes we're looking to optimize for, because we know that different strains do different things in the body. So a probiotic formulation for, you know, helping restore your gut microbiome after antibiotic intake will look very different than a probiotic formulation targeting the gut brain axis. So that's point one. It's like, how are these strains actually formulated and what are we hoping to accomplish? The second step is clinical studies, clinical studies in humans using the final formulation. So not just random strains, but the actual product that will show you. Look, we've tested this in humans and this is the outcomes we've gotten. If you have a brand that does that, it's much higher likelihood that these products will also do that for you. And then the third, you obviously also need to think about the delivery mechanism of the products. Because if you're just taking a beautifully crafted product, but it can't actually survive that passage into your intestines, it dies in the stomach, then that's, you know, not very helpful. So ideally also you would be choosing a brand that has tested their delivery mechanism in lab settings.

I'm really happy you talk about delivery mechanism. Some of my friends, or sometimes detractors in the calories in calories out crowd, they get really mad. I'm like, well, if it's just about calories in what if I took all my calories and I wrapped them in a condom and swallowed them, I go, what? But you can't absorb those. That doesn't count. Oh, so absorption of calories is what we're paying attention to. That means not all calories are the same if they can't be absorbed.

This is a good point.

And it's the same thing with probiotics, because if there's 20,000 or 20 million colony forming units in a pill when it's manufactured, they may not be there when you take it. And maybe they need refrigeration, maybe they don't. Maybe there's spore forming, maybe not. But if you put it in your mouth, are they going to change what's in the gut? And I don't think the answer is the same for everyone, because if you took it with a meal, there was stomach acid. Without a meal, there wasn't the reason I wanted to have you on or one of the reasons. And this, thanks for coming here in person, this episode you've been on before is to talk about the delivery system that you're using with omnibiotic, because there isn't another company doing that that I'm aware of. Why do you do it and how does it work?

Yeah, so, I mean, you, you exactly said if, if the probiotics should or can't, the probiotics need to be alive in order to have that benefit in your intestines. And many probiotics are freeze dried, which means all the water is extracted out of the bacteria and they're essentially in this dormant state. The first liquid that these freeze dried probiotics come in touch with, they will soak up. Because the idea is that that's supposed to kind of rejuvenate them and give them life. If, however, that is the stomach acid in your stomach, because maybe it was the probiotics were in a capsule, capsule opened in the stomach. Your probiotic bacteria find the stomach acid, they soak that up and the majority of them dies, and then they don't reach your intestines. With omnibiotic, our delivery mechanism, it comes in a powder. You rehydrate the probiotics in water or another neutral liquid prior to intake. Our powder also contains some important prebiotic nutrients. So essentially the probiotics wake up from the slumber, they rehydrate with the water, and then they also find their favorite food. And that actually makes them really strong for their passage through the stomach acid and ensures a much higher survival. We tested this in a GI simulator. 83% of omnibiotic bacteria reach the intestines alive and active, compared to 7% on average across 10 other leading brands.

So you're getting about 12 times more live bacteria when you do the omnibiotic approach. And I hate putting powders from little packets into water. And there's like 20 companies like, here, I sent you a packet. How many of you? I couldn't even drink all the liquid with all that stuff. So other than electrolytes, which I Put in all of my liquids or just salt yours. The omnibiotic is the only one that I'm willing to do that with regularly. And the reason is that, oh, it's going to work. So I take a little packet and I mix with water and I wait 30 seconds and I get 12 times more versus if I'd have taken a pill. So, okay, that's a trade off that I'm worth doing.

Worth it. And you know, the other thing is you can mix it in fairly little water. I mean, some people will do a whole glass, 4 to 8 ounces. I usually do 2 ounces. And then it's really almost like taking a shot of water. And then, you know, some people like to take it in the morning first thing. If you do it on a whole glass of water, you kind of kill two birds with a stone. You hydrate while doing it. So it's, it's fairly simple to incorporate into your routine.

The other thing that I like, the reason I wanted to have you on is that you run one of the very few probiotic companies who has very function specific strains. And I've for years said, all right, how do I fix my gut after antibiotics? I don't usually need to take them. I don't like to take them. I just had a substantial surgery three weeks ago. I had 28 square inches of skin left over from when I was obese removed from my face and neck. That's a lot more than you would do in a normal facelift. This is, I did that, plus a bunch of longevity stuff. But of course you take antibiotics when you have large amounts of skin just removed from your body. So I was thinking, okay, I have a lot of probiotics floating around because people keep sending them to me, right? And I do take a few weird unknown strains to raise glutathione or something. But I'm like, how do I restore my gut bacteria? And it was cool because you sent me your newest strain, which is called AB10, which is specifically for what do you do post antibiotic. And something interesting happened. I literally did this yesterday. Not because we were recording today, just because, like it had arrived. I'm like, oh, I should do this. So I took them around two. And I don't get brain fog almost ever. I don't get those kind of brain brownouts. I'm like. And I was tired about two hours after I took it. I'm like, well, I'm, I'm a little bit tired here. I laid down for half hour, did some rejuvenation. Things, my brain came back online, and then I got an amazing night's sleep, and I woke up and my gut function is much better than it was before. It wasn't that bad before.

Yeah.

But it was a really noticeable difference. Why, if someone takes probiotics like that, why would I have been tired for a little while after I took it?

Your body was just going through a lot. You mentioned you had surgery because of. You had to take antibiotics. They definitely did something to your gut. It's possible that with these new good bacteria, that your gut was kind of going into a bit of a rejuvenation and restore mode. And, you know, you. Because you're also very tuned into your body, you just felt that as, oh, I need to take a little rest and actually help my body kind of take that opportunity to recover and rejuvenate. And then, you know, you, as you said, you got a good night's sleep and you're feeling really good today.

It's okay if someone does a probiotic or something like that. When there's a rapid shift in the body, you can be tired for a little while. And that doesn't mean it's not working. It actually means it probably is working. But if I had taken it and I just felt like crap for days and days and days, that would have been something different. Do people get that from some probiotics on the market?

Yeah. So, actually, two things I want to say that the other thing, by the way, it's possible with, you know, we know that people after surgeries when they're taking antibiotics, it's also quite possible that your gut was just contaminated with potentially something slightly pathogenic. But because you're in very good health overall, maybe you didn't immediately feel it as other people would feel it. But then when you send in a probiotic that restores and fights that off, it could have also been that that fatigue was a bit of, like, your body defending against a potential pathogen. Now, to your question, do other people get that one thing that I hear often, actually two things when, like, with regards to bad reactions or weird reactions to probiotics. One, people will say, oh, I'm. I started taking this probiotic, and I started getting really bloated. And then I ask, well, what. What was in the probiotic? And then you hear, well, it actually had milk. And then I say, well, are you potentially lactose intolerant? And then you can see the wheels turning. They're like, yeah, yeah, I'm lactose intolerant. I don't eat dairy. Well, if you then take a probiotic that contains milk, that could have done it and that, you know, again, wouldn't go away. If you are lactose intolerant, you're going to have that reaction. The other thing though, which I think is also quite common, people who have a gut that's in not good shape, you have overgrowth of things like Candida or pathogenic bacteria. If you then take a probiotic that actually works, that changes your gut microbiome back to something better, you will see die off effects and, you know, use. People see that with other conditions like when I had Lyme. When you get that treated, you experience die off. It basically makes you feel pretty bad for a short period of time. But it's generally a sign that your body is healing. It's tough sometimes to tease that apart when you're just your, your own self, kind of your own individual on your wellness journey. But I've definitely seen that and also frankly experienced it myself. When I had Lyme and my gut was in bad shape and I started fixing my gut and fixing all these things, there were periods of time when I maybe was feeling a little bit worse. But you know that it's heading in the right direction.

That idea of a healing response or a Herxheimer response, a lot of listeners have heard of that. It's the real deal, especially if you're dealing with really bad dysbiosis or with Candida. If you kill a bunch of yeast, well, it's going to make a bunch of defense chemicals right before it dies, and then you have all the dead stuff to clean up. And there are ways to help protect yourself by having a more intact lining of the gut, which is the function of good probiotics and good prebiotics and mopping up the toxins. What is sibo and what do you do about it?

So sibo, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. It essentially happens when bacteria that really shouldn't be growing in your small intestine are overgrowing there. There can be many different causes. It essentially just means something is off in your small and large intestine. And actually some of our researchers from Europe, they have seen that oftentimes sibo goes along with an imbalance of bacteria in your large intestine. And then, you know, for some reason it's kind of creating this imbalance in your entire digestive tract. What to do about it depends on what practitioner you speak with. I've spoken to some practitioners who have an herbal protocol that can help with sibo. Other practitioners believe that it Requires specific targeted antibiotics that kind of just go after those specific sibo bacteria. But in any case, if you're using something to kill certain bacteria, whether it's, you know, herbal or a real medication, you want to make sure you support your gut microbiome with a good probiotic. In this case, I would again go for omnibiotic AB10, because it has those strains that help restore and rebalance the gut microbiome after disruption. And anything like sibo is definitely a disruption to your gut microbiome.

A friend called me yesterday, and his girlfriend has sibo that didn't respond to the normal antibiotics for it. It's like, what do I do? Well, you work with your doctor, but if it was me, I would take a broad spectrum nuclear antibiotic, kill everything in there, and then take AB10 and some prebiotics and just repopulate or maybe do fecal matter transplant if you have access to that, which is quite expensive. So start out with something designed to restore. How would somebody know whether their gut is just so wrecked that it's time to just reboot and start over versus to push it in the right direction?

With probiotics, I would honestly say work with a really skilled practitioner, Do a stool test, do blood work. Just at that point, if you're really. Honestly, if you're at that point where you're just not sure you know something is really wrong, but you just don't know how badly wrong it is, I would say you need some sort of lab data to help you understand. Is it just just one pathogen, like a C. Diff or something that's making you feel horrible? Or is your entire gut in so much inflammation and in such disarray that you might need a full protocol.

Also, it could be you're eating something every day that irritates your gut.

Oh, yeah.

Like black pepper or oxalate, Something like that. You also could have parasites.

Yep.

Right. And you also could have bacterial overgrowth of bad stuff, and you don't know which one it is. And so unpacking all that, it's really nice to have a practitioner. However, it's expensive to have a practitioner, so let's assume that I'm on a budget. Okay. I know I have sibo. I'm farting death all the time. I'm bloated all the time.

Yeah.

What's step one?

I would say look at your diet, because, you know, certain foods that you eat can make your sibo worse. So there's this thing called a low fodmap diet to essentially reduce These things that the Sibo bacteria feed on, I would say definitely take a good probiotic just to kind of try to restore as much balance as you can. Otherwise, I would look into some of these herbal approaches to targeting sibo.

This is oregano oil, grape seed extract.

Exactly. Things like that. I think there's even some specific formulations that are possibly called like SIBO X or whatever. Like things that kind of make it clear that it's specific for sibo. And then, you know, I think a good binder to help sweep some of the dead stuff out is really good.

Activated charcoal.

Yeah, something like that. And then also, as you said earlier, you know, there's other supplements that can also support your gut barrier. L glutamine, there's aloe vera, juice or liquids, things like that. Just anything to kind of strengthen your entire digestive tract.

So you do that and you take a good probiotic. In this case, it would probably be the omnibiotic AB10.

Yeah. And then, you know, depending on how low on a budget you are, there's also some stool tests that you can do without a practitioner necessarily. However, I've found that if people do those and then they get the results back, they're even more confused than they were before because it's hard to interpret a stool test without really understanding the gut. But, you know, that's something you could consider as well.

It's getting a little easier these days. You can take a stool sample and dump it into your favorite AI tool. And just what do I know about my poop? And it's kind of amazing. They do like an 80% job.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

What do you think is going to happen with AI and probiotics and our knowledge of the gut?

I think it's going to explode. And I think we're. I mean, we're already seeing this. There's so much research coming out every month on the gut microbiome and how it's linked to so many different systems in the body. And I think with AI and just that level of intelligence, I'm hoping that both on the testing side as well as on the treatment side, that we can get more targeted, hopefully lower costs. I mean, some of these lab tests are still really expensive. So with AI, maybe we can find lower cost alternatives and then also making it more accessible to people who don't want to or can't spend thousands of dollars working with, you know, a functional medicine.

Doctor, do you think we'll ever get to the point where you can just use your phone or similar device like Take a picture of your poop and know what probiotic you need.

Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. I mean, you can't see microbes, so that might be a stretch, but maybe one.

We can always remain hopeful. I always think something's impossible, but the amount of correlations we can do today, it's pretty phenomenal. So it wouldn't surprise me if they're like, tell us what you ate, give us a picture of your poop, and we'll tell you. Magic. I don't know anyone who can do that right now, but I would like to see just our knowledge base expand to the point where we can at least be 80% of the way there. So maybe this probiotic. One of the things I did do as part of my stress resilience protocol when I was having this recent surgery is I took the omnibiotic stress. And you have stress, you have detox, and you have the AB10. Am I missing. Is there another one?

Yeah, we actually have a few additional ones. We have omnibotic power.

Oh, I have that one.

Yeah. You know, that one. That really targets oxidative stress. Then we have omnibotic balance, which is more for, like, overall immune support. It's also really beneficial for people with constipation.

Okay.

And then we have omnibutic panda, which is for babies and young kids, as well as during pregnancy. We haven't talked about that one a lot.

Wait, this is Panda. Like to stop strep bacteria kind of thing?

No, no, no. It's just literally the Panda bear. We didn't come up with the name. That was already existing.

Got it. So it's the qn.

Yeah, it's Pandas for our kids.

Pandas is a really important thing that happens in kids when they have chronic strep throat, usually as a result of toxic mold. I know about it because I have had it as a kid. We didn't know what it was called, but it gives you ocd and odd, because your body makes an autoimmune response to a protein on the surface of strep bacteria that causes changes in the brain. And this is one of those things where the sinus microbiome, the oral microbiome, and the gut microbiome, they're all actually integrated. And if something's wrong up here with kids, they're likely to take antibiotics and they get more gut dysregulation. So I wish when I was a kid, I would have had good probiotics, because I probably wouldn't have got that panda stuff, which usually it's a behavioral disorder that they usually lump in with things like autism or adhd. And it's a different thing. But your panda formula is just cute pandas for bears. But taking good probiotics is likely to reduce kids getting actual panda.

Yes. I mean, there's. I actually just was listening to a podcast on this in the functional medicine space and you know, they are. Those folks on the podcast were saying whenever a child, or really anyone, even an adult, approaches them with any kind of spectrum disorder, they need to look at the gut. Because without addressing the gut, there's just so many other things that you can't really address. Like you can't calm down. Low grade inflammation in the body if you're leak, if you have leaky gut and you keep spewing toxins into your bloodstream. So it's all connected, but the gut is a huge foundation to even things like that.

Ultimately, most of those spectrum disorders are chronic autoimmune neuroinflammation. And that always happens over time when you have a leaky gut and the wrong bacteria growing. And it can be caused by other things either cause a leaky gut or directly cause the neuroinflammation. So I've never seen anyone successfully reverse autism or even ADHD without improving the gut. Maybe it's just improving the diet, which improves the gut, but quite often it's a bacterial balance.

Yeah.

Are you ever going to come out with something like the omnibiotic ADHD formula or.

Oh, that's an interesting one. I don't know. I'll talk to our research team. But you know, the omnibiotic stress release, because it targets the gut brain axis, we have seen in clinical studies that that also helps stabilize mood, improve mood and even cognitive focus, cognitive function and focus. So we, we actually have practitioners also here in the US who use that with patients who are dealing with anxiety and kind of other emotional disorders. And they, many patients feel so much better taking that product.

Okay, that would make sense if it's balancing the, the gut brain axis. What would happen if someone with we'll say an unlimited budget just sat down? So I'm going to take all the omnibiotics. Was that six of them you have now?

Yeah, six or seven.

Just mix them all up in a glass of water and take them. Is that worth doing or is you just pick the one or two that are most likely going to work for you?

Yeah. So first of all, I would say don't mix them in the same glass of water because, you know, you don't want the bacteria from one of the formulations potentially compete in the same glass of water for nutrients with another formulation. We know that bacteria can either work together in teams or they can compete for the same resources. So I personally often take one of the probiotics in the morning and one in the evening. I generally think about two is fine. After that it's, it's probably just a lot to keep track of. And you know, usually most people, if I say, okay, what are the one or two things in your health that you're really looking to optimize? We can narrow it down to two.

Omnibiotic formulations I've got on the counter downstairs. You can see it when we, when you finish. I've got power, stress and a B10 and I just kind of randomly take one of them. I'm not sure that I'm that structured about twice a day. Yeah, just whenever I think about it, and I think my stomach's mostly empty, I just kind of mix one with water and chug it. Like I said, a two ounce shot.

Yeah.

Okay. What percentage of what's in one of those packets is prebiotic versus the actual bacteria?

The majority is. Well, actually that's a good question, I would imagine, or I think the majority is the pre, the probiotic bacteria. And then we mix small amounts of prebiotics in. So what's really important, People ask us this all the time. They say, so is omnibiotic also a prebiotic supplement that I would take if I'm fiber deficient? The answer to that is no. A fiber supplement. A prebiotic supplement. Usually you take like bigger scoops and it's just fiber, it's helping to, it's helping you meet your fiber requirements. The prebiotic nutrients in the omnibiotic powder are just the right amount to feed these probiotic bacteria when they're mixed in water and during that activation phase. So it's not the same as taking a full on fiber supplement.

Okay. When people are on low carb diets, they're usually also on low fiber diets. Will probiotics work if you're carnivore or if you're on a low carb diet?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say, you know, in that case you need to even more so you need to make sure that you're supporting your gut, your digestion. Some people who are not getting enough fiber, they suffer from things like constipation. However, you know, fiber is really important as the food source for your probiotics. So if you're not getting that through your diet, I would say at least look at ways through dietary supplements that you can increase your fiber intake to make sure that the gut bacteria actually have food to survive on.

When I was doing a lot of intermittent fasting and keto dieting, I measured the number and diversity of my gut bacteria. And I had relatively low number, relatively low diversity. In fact, you can predict someone's age by a lack of diversity their gut bacteria. So I had older person's poop dynamics because of diet. So I added a prebiotic I wanted to formulating and I was getting about 40 grams of soluble fiber, no insoluble, like sawdust kind of stuff. And it quadrupled the number of species of bacteria in my gut. And I took probiotics at the time. And I think there's a case for that. There's also a bunch of people on the carnivore side are saying that there's no proof that we need a soluble fiber whatsoever. And actually in my first book, I put this study in there. Collagen can be fuel for gut bacteria. So you don't have to have fiber if you get enough collagen. Have you ever looked at that? Is collagen enough to grow bacteria or should people really be taking some fiber?

Yeah, that's a great question. I personally am not so much into the research on that. I'm sure our scientists in Europe might have looked at that, but not something I know off the top of my head.

Good deal. It's a pretty detailed question and it's one I've often pondered and I've gone through phases where I take a lot of.