The Key to Longevity & A Workout Routine That Sticks - Tony Horton | 1093 | Dave Asprey

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey, formerly. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Today we're going to talk about longevity and we're going to talk about workouts tailored for hormones and this thing that we all could have used more of over the last decade, but especially three years. What some people call resilience, what I sometimes call equanimity, which is that ability to choose your state and hold your state no matter what is happening in the world around you. You could call it grit, you could call it toughness, but toughness has a dark side that isn't in these other words. But, you know, how do you bring it when it's hard? Our guest today, before I tell you who it is, we share the same mission and different paths for sure, but it's helping people become better human beings, like better versions of you. The you that you choose to be versus the you that you feel like you don't have any control over being. He's a very well known motivational speaker and author. And you might have read books like Bring It, Crush it and the Big Picture. You probably have heard of BeachBody Fitness or P90X.

This is the creator of those.

None other than Tony Horton. Tony, welcome.

Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm excited.

You did something that I actually wasn't going to expect, that I wasn't expecting you to do. And you decided to create a workout for women who are having a shifting hormonal cycle. And my first question for you is, you're a dude.

What would a dude know about these things? Yeah, you're absolutely right. And this was way off my radar, no question about it. And I had a podcast just like this with Dr. Mindy Pelz. And, you know, I've got a team of people and they're searching for good interviews. And, you know, I did a little research on her and I found out who she was and I thought this would be really fascinating. And in her latest book, Fast Like A Girl is doing really well. She's done the circuit on the interviews with the morning shows, and it's had a huge impact on a lot of women, you know, because a lot of women were exercising but just struggling with it, you know what I mean? There were the ups and the downs and, you know, some of them that were maybe ex athletes had a certain pattern or process that they had, you know, they got back to and it was working for them. But for a lot of women who were, you know, busy and in their 30s, 40s and 50s, and they've got kids and. And it's just been a conundrum for them, right? So when she did P90X and she did it, I think for five years in a row, I don't know why anybody want to hear the same jokes over and over again, but she really loved it. But what she did for herself, and she shared this with a lot of her fans and some of her friends and family, is she took the schedule that I created for both men and women and she switched things around based on her hormonal fluctuations. And so her results were infinitely better than she would have if she had followed the typical calendar that I created for both men and women. And we talked about this in the interview and I was kind of blown away. And she said to me in the interview, she said, I want to create a program not for men and women, but really, really hone what the schedule should be, how women need the ebb and flow of their cycles, whether they're premenopausal, menopausal or perimenopausal, whatever it is, based on all the work and research that she's done, I said, I'm in. Yeah, we sat down and we had a lot of conversations. And it was an eye opener for me. I mean, I. I'm going to be honest, I was completely unaware of the fact that, I mean, I always knew that women who did P90X, you know, they would have to modify on certain days. They would have to turn P90X into P1.20X. It was going to be a longer journey for them just based on the hormonal fluctuation. But that was the extent of my knowledge. But really open up the door to some new things. So we created stop options. So there were like, a lot of the workouts are maybe 50 minutes long. You get to stop at the 20 minute mark, you get to stop at the 40 minute mark and fast forward to the cooldown based on what your hormones are saying to you on your. Based on your age, whether you're, you know, in the middle of bleeding or not. And then we also had pretty specific powering up days and powering down days, meaning depending on where you are in your cycle, hey, today's. I know you're watching somebody else going for it, but that's not for you because we want you to feel like you have the energy and confidence to come back the following day. Wow, I've got some hardcore gals, type A. They're like, man, I don't. I want to go for it, but she's telling me I got to mellow out. Friend of mine, Mary, who is here, she comes for playa Wednesday night. She goes, this is the lowest weight I've ever been. And I've been doing. I've been working out less intense, doing more mindfulness practices and doing the types of workouts that I wouldn't normally be doing. And I'm just following the program. This is the lowest weight I've been. So Dr. Mindy Pels and I have created something that doesn't exist, and we're proud of it. And we've had two test groups and the results. I know I sound like the infomercial right now, but heaven forbid, gals for the first time feel like they're doing something that feels right for them. They have energy, they're getting the recovery, and they're seeing the results they want.

It's an act of service to do this for women. A lot of people don't know this, but my first big book was a book on fertility for women. I studied women's hormones and fertility for five years because my wife at the time was infertile and you wanted to have kids. And we restored fertility. And so I've always included in my books. And Mindy and I have talked about this on this show as well. There's a chapter in my fasting book. Here's all the research that's specific to women and even the reason that the publisher, when they asked me to write a fasting book, like, I already wrote one. It's called the Bulletproof Diet. And it's like, don't eat for a while. Like, what's new? And what was new is that I was seeing that women in particular were over fasting. Some Taipei guys do it, but we tend to handle a little bit better. But so many women couldn't lose weight because they were under eating, over fasting, over ketoing, and over training. And one of the criticisms that I've felt about P90X, I don't think I've ever kind of talked about it was like, you can overtrain. And so what you're. You're doing with a stop points, you're giving a little bit of motivation to push hard, but not push so hard that you break yourself. And the reality is that on average, women are better biohackers than men when they first start. And about 60% of my followers and customers are women. And it's because you have to customize it. But when you don't get the separate Information that's like, okay, should you fast longer or shorter based on this? And Mindy has run with that and did a whole book on it. And so I know that listeners of this episode, if they decide to try your new workout where they're spacing it out based on how they feel, well, and again, this is a gross generalization. There are women who have no bodily awareness, but on average, if your body changes every month, you'll probably notice. And for guys, we don't. And, you know, there are changes for guys that. That we ought to know about, but we don't. So I. I think giving them guidance and permission to slow down at the right time is. Is honoring the. The feminine nature of biology, and it creates happier, less anxious, leaner, more fit and happier women when they don't over train. So thank you for working that in. And still, you know, hey, push hard, because if you can't push hard, you're weak. But if you push so hard, you become weak, it doesn't work either. So I'm stoked that you do this. And I'm a dude too, right? So that was part of my question. Like, people ask me that all the time, how can you write a fertility book? You're a CIS white male. And I usually just say, actually, how do you know? You didn't even ask me. And then they go away.

And, yeah, I mean, the adrenal burnout and the cortisol levels going through the roof, and that's the reason why a lot of guys, gals, feel like, well, this is just the wrong program for me. So they jump from one to the other to the other, and they run into the same problems every time because they didn't know what Dr. Mindy knew. And it just felt like, you're right. It's giving women permission to learn to do it a different way, you know, based on what's actually going on in their own personal body chemistry. And, and we. We think it's groundbreaking. We're really excited and. And we're getting some great feedback. So this is. This is fun. And like, with P90X, what. What I did was I, you know, we had. We had intensify, modify. But a lot of people are watching the person who's going for it, and they're not. They're not even paying attention to the person who's modifying. And it's hard sometimes to make those judgment calls in the middle of a workout. You know, it's sort of like, yeah, he's going for it. I want to go for it. When in reality, you know, I look back at that program and it, you know, we sold a lot of them and a lot of people got great results. But if we had the intel then that I have now, maybe we could even help more people, you know.

Yeah. And it's, it's time that we acknowledge that men and women are not the same biologically. Even though most medical research from 20 plus years ago is just on, you know, young dudes, because that's who was in college. And knowing these subtle differences and, and even actually hits women more than men. But if you didn't sleep much last night and you're highly jet lagged and you wake up in the morning, like, is that the best time to go really hard?

But it's on the schedule. It's on the schedule. It's supposed to be an hour and 10 minute plio session. This morning I got partway through my routine and we were going hard. It was a bunch of guys all going after. We were all in a good mood and I told them, I said, hey, in this last round, I'm backing off on reps and I'm backing off on the weight just because it feels like I maybe could get hurt here. But a lot of people don't have that little inner voice, both men and women, and then they wonder why they're always broken to some degree.

It's funny, as a young guy, When I weighed 300 pounds, I went to the gym six days a week, 90 minutes a day, without fail. Even if I only slept two hours, even if I had a sinus infection probably wasn't the right thing to do, and I was restricting calories as much as I could and cutting fat and all that. And I didn't lose any weight after that time. But I know that I over drove myself because I didn't have that. So I feel like younger men are more likely to damage their biology first. And when women anytime in life are over training, I think they get damaged more quickly than men. And so just building, building these stop points and, and saying, you know, this is the time you're most likely to, to do good. It's a real evolution. In fact, some of the comments from the live studio audience from the upgrade collective here, they're coming in and they're saying, you know, bravo for being willing to evolve and you know, even for you, I don't think when you were, you know, 29 years old, you would have said, you know, I, I'm going to take it Alezi, do less reps. You'd be like I am not going to do less reps because I'll be weak. And so your wisdom also is showing.

Totally. Yeah, yeah. Don't tell me I know everything. And then. No, you know why? Because I'm successful. So. Because now I'm successful, I'm going to just compete, going to continue to keep doing the things that I. That I know have worked. But look, I mean, I'm 65, so, you know, over the course. And I got Ramsey Hunt syndrome about seven years ago, which completely kicked my ass.

I mean, I want to talk with you about longevity. And this is a field where I've spent 20 years running a nonprofit. And you've written a major New York Times book on how to live to 180. But the thing that scares everyone is along the way, what if I get Alzheimer's? What if I get a condition? So tell me about what you've got and what was like to acknowledge that this was happening.

Well, it was stress related. I mean, I had chickenpox as a kid. So anybody who's had it has got that virus sitting in there just waiting to come out when you're a little stressed out. So I went through some tough stuff. I left beachbody after 20 years. I was kind of shocked that they didn't want to pay me anymore. That was weird. But it was a, you know, I'm riding this beautiful wave, and then the wave came to shore, and then I have to look over my shoulder and figure out what I'm going to do. So it was that added to the. The stress. And then my longtime client, after 32 years, Tom Petty, passes away the day after the Vegas shooting. And I just thought the world was caving in. And I was a lot more ornery than I even knew. You know, it's like the frog in the frying pan thing. My cortisol levels were, I'm sure was through the roof. My adrenal glands were fried. And then all of a sudden, I felt this burning in my ear. And of course, if you're going to get shingles, the last place you want it is in your ear because you've got the. I think it's the fifth, sixth, seventh facial nerves that affect your balance, your sight, your smell and your taste and go straight into the brain. And so, you know, I mean, I. I couldn't turn my head without vomiting. I couldn't get out of bed. My Epstein Barr was a 12, you know what I mean? I had leaky gut, leaky brain, and all these things that were happening. And I'm the guy that's supposed to be, you know, Johnny Health and Fitness. And I wasn't. And I didn't have a mindfulness practice. My mindfulness practice was, you know, turning Zeppelin all the way up for about 20 minutes.

It's a pretty good one. I, I'm not going to argue with it.

It's a good one. I still use that one. That's not one that I got 10. I got 10. And I look at it on a piece of paper and I go, enie, what do I need right now? I didn't have this list of 10 before. And I read, you know, I read Jon Kabat Zinn's book Full Catastrophe Living, which saved my life because all the king's horses and all the king's men, they tried what they could. I had Bell's palsy. Like, you know, that's not good on camera, right? So I had some real things I had to deal with. And it took a long time, took about a year before I could at least appear normal and function. Still to this day I have something called bilateral vestibular hypofunction which is a form of vertigo. And those nerves have yet to heal seven years later. But you know, I do what I can do and I have a regular meditation practice. It's. I do a lot of body scan meditation, I do a lot of box breathing and it wasn't easy to come back from, but I had this base of healthy eating, regular exercise, but I had to add the mindfulness component. And I had been vegan, which I still am for the most part. I'm a part time vegan now. If there's elk medallion, elk medallions on a menu in Jackson Hole, I'm going to eat them. If there's wild salmon, I'm going to eat it.

So why don't you just say you're an omnivore like everyone else? Part time vegan.

I don't want to label it, I guess because I'll eat vegan for seven weeks in a row and then I'm in Jackson Hole, I'm gonna have some elk. So I don't, I don't know what, maybe give me a good, how should I label myself?

I'm not sure I would say that you're an omnivore. Like you can eat a little meat or a lot of meat, but you know, it's sort of like, like we've put the vegan thing up on a pedestal. In my case, it made me very ill after about a year, year and a half of It. And I've interviewed dozens of medical doctors and top people who had the same thing happen because of oxalic acids and things. So there's no moral value to eating more or less meat. But, like, if you eat some meat, you're not vegan. Most of the vegans who never eat any meat, man, they do not age well.

Yeah, that's a good thing to know. Yeah. I mean, I. I tried veganism twice and it went terribly bad. Yeah. And then when I went. I went through my blood test and I met with the endocrinologist and nutritionist, and I had to cut out so many things just to heal my gut and heal everything else, and it ended up being vegan, like. But I didn't have a decent protein source, so I met with some folks and I made my own, you know, I mean, I. Massive doses of HMB and vitamin D3, put that in the protein and like. Oh. And now as a guy who's 65, I. I feel like I can still charge and lift and work.

So you're looking pretty good. So the. The one thing you're doing, obviously, is you're getting enough protein, which is really hard to do as a vegan unless you package it with, you know, a thousand grams of carbs a day. So if you're doing industrially separated out plant proteins, you're getting your protein levels up, which helps so much. I mean, you.

Yeah, yeah.

How are you doing on the. The chickenpox virus thing? Is. Is it gone? You're just healing from the damage? Is. Are you done with the viral infection or does it keep coming back?

It's there. It'll always be there. You know, there's nothing I can do about it.

Want some biohacking about that?

That.

That's maybe not in medical.

Maybe I could do some help there, but I haven't had any issues in seven years.

Okay. So it's been gone for seven years?

Seven years. I mean, I used to have to put. I had all kinds of inflammation everywhere. I used to put PRP and symbiosis in my knees. I don't need that.

Me too, man.

You know what I mean? Like. Oh, my God. Oh, what's that? Fifteen hundred dollars a knee. That's a little expensive every time I needed it. So. I mean, it seems that right now I'm in pretty good balance. And I think mostly because I've learned to chill out. I've learned to.

There you go. You can't do that. You can take every nootropic out there, every protein powder, but if you can't chill out, you're still not going to thrive. And I've seen you chill out over the course of your career remotely. I mean, we know each other super well, but, you know, I'm aware of your work in the world and you can sort of see the wisdom has come in. Right?

Yeah.

Let's talk for a minute about the chickenpox virus and other pox viruses. This includes herpes. I had high EBV count, I had toxic mold, I had Lyme disease, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, leaky gut arthritis. All this before I was 30. And so I had to learn from my elders at an anti aging group. That's why I know about longevity. And one of my favorite mentors is a guy named Steve, folks, who's been on the show a few times, biochemist, and he wrote a book called Cure Herpes with bht. And BHT is a synthetic antioxidant used to protect oils. And what they found in the 80s, many of the longevity people who are planning to live to 180, like me, they were using this to keep their membranes in their body from oxidizing, just to protect the fats in your body. It turns out all of the viruses that are lipid encapsulated, including chickenpox and all forms of herpes and ebv, they cannot replicate when BHT is present in the body. So for something that costs about a dollar for a month's supply, you can absolutely stop these viruses from replicating. And I have helped dozens of friends with shingles. It comes on, they use BHC topically, they use it orally, about 300 milligrams and it goes away. And some people say, but it's an endocrine disruptor. At lower doses it is. But who cares if you disrupt your endocrines a little bit if you stop shingles? I know that if you had that biohack at the height of your problems, the Bell's palsy would have gone away way faster than it did. And part of my mission is to spread this kind of knowledge. And that's unpopular. I mean, there's expensive drugs that you're supposed to take. This is something anyone can do. And I talk about this occasionally on the show. And if you know you do have shingles, or even if someone in your family gets chickenpox, you can give it to them and they'll have a mild case and they'll stop replicating and everything dries up in three days. And it's very reliable. So I Want every functional medicine doctor. Find the book. It's free online. The guy's name is Steve Fowkes. F O W K E S. And the book is Cure Herpes with bhd. And big pharma hates it, but because of your condition, you need to have a bottle of BHD in your cabinet in case you get a tingle that comes back. Knock that shit down. I mean, Tony, you gotta know, this is where biohacking is important.

Right on. I mean, I feel like I'm very lucky, thinking seven years, eight years, how far will I. Like what? There's ever a stressful event that comes up. I mean, I know what that'll do to me, and I'm just. Yeah, like I said. Okay. Like, there's a lot of things where I used to go nuts and I don't anymore. I go, this. You know, this does not serve me, this kind of reaction. And it comes in my family. I got a. I got. We got some uptight Hortons in the family.

Yeah, you did the deep work to turn that down. And. And what I find, too, is, is that oftentimes guys who live at your volume, you know, you. You do a lot of stuff. You got big businesses, and you're just out there. When you travel around the world and you get, like, physically exhausted and all that, that's when stuff flares up. So what I've learned is that I can take a little bit of bioidentical cortisol, which is something old weightlifters used to do. It's very safe to do this. But if you're right on the edge of crashing and you're like, I'm probably gonna get a cold, you take that for a day, it's like 5 milligrams of Cortef four times a day. And magically, your body has enough power to stop the inflammation so it doesn't start. And that's been something I've taught people to use for jet lag and all. But I'm like, man, I don't want you ever to have another flare up. And I would be honored. I'll make sure you have myself a number. If it happens again, call me. I will tell you the biohacks that are not on most menus, and we can stop it right as it's starting, and those are just a couple of things. But, man, I want you to have longevity and the benefits of biohacking so that you can be calm and peaceful and you can still bring it for the next hundred years.

Yeah, I mean, My number is 109. But I like your number better.

Why is it 109? Like, why not 108 or 110?

110 seems really old. But it's interesting. A lot of my peers, people I went to high school and college with, I mean, I went back east, which is where I'm from, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and I looked around and I went, how come everybody my age looks like my grandparents? It's kind of shocking. And you just watch the behavior and there's lack of movement, there's tons of stress and a lot of family issues and work issues and lack of activity. And just you sit down and just watch one meal and think, I could never eat. That would kill me. That meal would kill me. And people just do that day in and day out. And you can kind of see why they're getting so haggard. So, yeah, I appreciate some of these tips. I've been writing them down. So I really do appreciate that and anything. And I like, I'm a curious guy. If, if something doesn't work, I'll change on a dime. I'm not so addicted to old behavior. Right.

That, that's a, that's a quality. That it. So, so few people develop until, you know, they've taken some hits. When did you learn to be flexible like that?

A little bit prior to Ramsay Hunt, but certainly after that was. That was my kick in the teeth that made me understand. And also the woman I'm married to, my wife is, is a special lady. And so, you know, there were a lot of days during Ramsay Hunt where I was just, you know, lying there with my head in her lap, sobbing, because the, the pain and the anguish and the depression was pretty high. And you know, where's. I. Here's. Here it is, man. It's always nearby. And I, you know, that book did wonders for me. You can even see where I.

Right. Tell me the name of the book for people who aren't watching. Oh, Full Catastrophe Living.

Full Catastrophe Living using the wisdom of your body and mind to face stress, pain and illness by Jon Kabat Zinn. I'd say I pull that out all the time and just go, oh, yeah, there's a reminder, you know, and it's joy and laughter. And a lot of it has, for me, it has to be with communing with like minded people who are just fun to be with. And we laugh hard and we play hard and we chill hard, which I never used to do. And that's really made the difference for me. And constantly getting blood work and looking to see where I need to make adjustments from with my diet and my supplements and everything else and my meds, you know, so.

So if you could look and feel and think and have the amount of energy you have today at 120, would you change your number?

Yeah. Hell, yeah. Oh, yeah.

My goodness, it's happening. I've looked at all the tech. I'm about to go do a very highly advanced gene therapy that'll probably take about 11 years off my already low epigenetic age. And I've. You know, I. I age at 79, the rate of an average person. And it's probably a lower rate of aging now based on some interventions. But, Tony, there's no reason you can't be the Tony of today two or three decades from now, because life is.

Too fun to have it all end too soon. And here's the thing, too, though. I don't know. This is the way I think, and maybe this is the reason why things are going pretty well for me these days, is I don't think in term of longevity. I think in terms of quality of life today. And that kind of builds up and over. I mean, I was scanning Jackson Hole last year. Some of the deepest snow I've ever skied in. And, I mean, I prepare myself all year for those long trips. I'm there for all of January, part of February. I'll be there in December. I'll be there in March. I go up to Mammoth as well. And I was skiing as hard, as fast as I ever had, top to bottom. There's this one run where I used to have to stop. You know, even when I was 15, 90x guy, I'd have to stop twice. Tired, you know what I mean? This one trip, I saw that spot where I stopped, and I kept going. Ooh. And then I went to the second stop. I go, I'll have to stop there. And I went. I did some mindfulness, little box breathing part way down. And I went all the way to the bottom. And I looked up and I saw my two friends. I'm like, I didn't. This was this. I was 63 at the time.

Wow.

It's been that way ever since, you know, And I couldn't do that in my 20s or 30s or 40s or 50s. I mean, you know as well as anybody, it's just a blast to keep moving through time and not noticing what a lot of people are struggling with. It's. It's pretty fun. And to be able to share that with folks like you and I do. I Mean, my purpose is to help other people find theirs through, you know, through this lifestyle.

Well, having a regular practice, whether you're talking meditation or exercise, you've. You've helped so many people do that. You mentioned something earlier about how, mindy, you did P90X for 5 years and all this, and you said, well, how do you listen to the jokes over and over? You've been successful at working out like a madman, been for most of your life. But so many people get started and then they stop. What is the trick for people who are listening to have a consistent practice for years?

Three things, plus one, purpose. Plan accountability with a little bit of intensity as you progress and track your progress. So purpose is, I think, a lot of reasons why people struggle is because the reason why sucks. It's too much about their ego. It's too much about the aesthetics. It's too much about how they think they're perceived by other people, right? So it's all about, you know, bigger arms, like how much you bench and how much you squat. What's your circumference of your arms or how cute is your booty? And it's not sustainable because life keeps happening, right? There's all these, you know, whatever. It's work, it's family, it's stress, it's traffic, za da da. And any little thing will knock you off track because your purpose sucks. I train hard because I have other things outside of exercise that I really want to do and love to do, and so I train for that. I also train because I understand that I'm going to release norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin, brain drive, neurotropic factor. No matter what I do, whether I go for a walk, whether I do an hour and a half yoga, whether I lift weights, especially when I'm doing martial arts or cardio stuff, this is that, right? The temporal lobe, the hippocampus, dentate, gyrus, lights up like a Christmas tree, and it changes my perspective for the rest of the day. That one hour affects the 23. And, you know, that's just science and fact. And anybody who understands, like, oh, it's really about, if I train now, then I can go to Italy and I can get on a bike and ride five and a half hours on the Appian Way where Caesar used to go, as opposed to other people who look at it from their car. You know what I mean? Or I can go skiing with friends of mine that are half my age and fly down that mountain with snow going over my shoulders like that's why I train. And I also train because I'm naturally sort of a depressed person. I'm a quiet depressed person. You wouldn't think so. But I get in my head, if I miss two or three days, I'm not a really good guy to hang out with. I am using myself as the source as opposed to outside sources. Drugs, alcohol, you know, porn, whatever your thing is weed, you know, I am the source. It's already there. And I have these, you know, short term exercise leads to a lifetime of joy, happiness and pleasure. You know, those little bouts with, you know, short term pleasures lead to a miserable life and a shorter life. So that's purpose. And when I get that across to people, oh shit, if I work out today, yeah, I'm not going to weigh any less, I'm not going to look different in the mirror. But I'm a better person for it. And it's not really about me. It's about who I am with how I affect other people in my life, like my friends and my family. Oh, man, I could tell you've been consistent because you're just. I'm more thoughtful, I'm more patient, I'm more altruistic, you know what I mean? I'm more creative. I mean, and that happens right away. You don't have to wait for how you look. Another one is a plan. You got to write down what you're going to do, when you're going to do it. I mean, everybody knows I'm Monday. Saturday is my only day off. But Monday through Friday and Sunday, it's scheduled, it's in the books. Everybody that I work for, everybody that I know is don't get in the way of those workouts. And accountability for me is making sure that I've always got somebody over here. I mean, I've got four different places to work out. I got a ninja course, I got a 20 foot rope with parallel bars. I got another pegboard down there with a rope and a bell and everything else. So I'm always on the horn reaching out to people come and play. Like this morning there were five of us. Last night there were nine of us.

And so you've got community.

Community.

Community is how you're doing it.

That's how I do it. And then last but not least, I track who I am, I track what I'm doing. Some days are maintenance days, but I'm here. Yeah, I mean, other days, oh, I got a couple more reps in or I feel a little bit stronger. I was able to get up that rope, you know, a little bit quicker. Those things make it happen.

For me, the tracking part of it is really core to biohacking. It's like, I just want to do. It works, right? If it's not working, I'm going to change it because I spend so much time doing stuff that didn't work. And it's kind of like your newest program. Like, you know what for women, at a certain point, you know, let's put in stop points. Cause it works better. It's like, do something, measure, test, try something. And eventually everything evolves and improves. If someone's motivated, you're keeping your dopamine levels high with your, you know, your intense, longer workouts. And even the community exposure raises dopamine. And you've noticed because you track it, huh? If I don't get that for three days, my dopamine drops and I'm a curmudgeon. I don't like my life.

And yeah, I end up with exercise bipolar disorder. And, you know, I know what that feels like. So. Yeah, you're exactly right.

Do you do cold plunging at all? Because that's another dopamine thing.

I just got one and I've done it in the past. I've been up to. I'm name dropping now, but I got, I was on Gabby Reese's podcast up at her.

I love Gabby. She's so fun.

She's just the best man. And then her and Laird were there. Hey, you got to come to the house. So I went through the whole pool workout and got in the hot box and got in the ice plunge. And you know, this, this was me in the car in the way. Oh, like, holy smokes, you know, but what a phenomenal day. And so I, I knew about it. I'd done it once or twice, but listening to those two, how important it is. Mine is maybe four weeks old and it's set at 60 degrees. I apologize for those of you, the hardcores that got it down in the 30s, but that's just, that's. I can get out on a ski slope at minus 20 and go, I got all the right gear on. But, you know, getting in that thing in my boxer shorts is a little rough for me. But I'm in there and I do my three minutes and it's, it's done wonders. It's just going to take a while for me to get, to get.

Oh, it's, it's another grit practice like, like being able to push hard in a different way with similar dopamine effects. And I I prefer the ones with cold air. We're doing that at Upgrade Labs, opening franchises all over the place.

Oh, wow.

By the way, listeners, go to ownandupgradelabs.com if you want to be a franchisee and open a business. And, you know, it's one of the different things, but I, I found that for me, with the mental acuity and happiness levels, I can exercise and it helps. And if I cold plunge, I. I really get a big boost. You just want to cold plunge and then exercise, because if you cold plunge after the exercise, the exercise doesn't work. And that's something that we just figured out.

Oh, my God. Because that's exactly what I've been doing, you know, just to kind of bring all the inflammation down.

So if you, if you over train, you can use cold to stop the damage, but if you get cold in the plunge and then you get out, you say, but I need to warm up. Well, your body will warm up, but it's teaching your cells to create heat is actually where the benefit comes from metabolically. So then you're going to start a little slow, but the heat comes on quickly. And the faster the heat comes on, the. The better your metabolism. And then as long as you don't like exercise to the point of almost injuring yourself, the inflammation is good for you. Because now you've got heat that the body made, which also means it made power. And then the power adapts to what caused the inflammation. Then you grow muscles. And the studies, most recent ones, are showing ice exposure after exercise reduces muscle growth. Right.

What do you mean?

I'm working on all the algorithms, and we're using AI now in order to figure out what to do in what order to get the best results. And that one I'm very sure of. And that's from eight years of running. You know, the biohacking upgrade labs under Arnold Schwarzenegger's office in Santa Monica. Right. It's just, you get enough experimental data like, oh, this works better. Right. So there's a hack for you that could be helpful.

Thank you. That's awesome.

You got it?

Yeah. Yeah. Great.

I'm just so intrigued at how you're evolving your knowledge in your programs and even yourself. And you look fantastically healthy.

Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I haven't had alcohol in 35 years. I've been dealing with my stress really well for the last seven. There's some genetics in there for me, but it's also behavior and environment. I've been extremely consistent for a very long time. And I'm very good at making adjustments along the way and making change along the way. Do I run as fast as I used to? No. But I can do a ninja course now like a teenager, which I couldn't even begin to do because I didn't have the hand and forearm strength, you know, I mean, so certain areas are getting better. Certain areas, areas I don't focus on as much because I get more injury. I get on a track and I sort of running fast. If I don't do like an hour warmup then that simple hundred is going to blow out both my hamstrings. So I, you know, I just tone down where I need to. I'm just listening because I don't want to be hurt. So far so good. And, and the consistency aspect of it, that alone, you know, Whoever Woody Allen, 80% of life is showing up and the other 20% in my opinion is paying very close attention to what's happening while you're in the middle of what you're doing. It's like, duh, you know. But you know, when I was 25, you know, I've got a bunch of boneheads around me and trying to bench press that are blowing out both my shoulders. I don't do that.

You know, the fact that you're willing to say look, I'm, you know, I'm not going to run because it doesn't work for me. Kudos. It seems like some people have, I think it's based on the 1970s thing, like a moral thing, like if you run you're a good person. And I did this when I was overweight. Plus you lose weight and I already had arthritic knees and my feet didn't have just the right musculature, the right programming. I didn't know how to move them right from a functional movement perspective. So I was causing all kinds of damage. And I finally just realized, you know what, as a former 300 pound, now 200 pound guy, probably running isn't my sport because of the whole thing called physics. And so I still feel like a little bit of a twinge where like I interviewed Jocko on stage and Jocko, well, this guy, you know, I'm up at 4:30 and I sweated on my watch and, or you know, David Goggins, I ran 10,000 miles before lunch and I'm like, how do you do that? Because biologically it doesn't matter how tough I am. I know that I am going to need knee replacements when I'm 147 or something. If I keep doing that, right? So I'm like, I'm going to choose the things that work for me and there is no goodness or badness for doing it. And I have so much respect for their grit and determination. And so for listeners, you've also adapted this idea for yourself personally and even in your newest program, like, okay, it's okay to say this is enough for me today. And I didn't give myself permission as a young man to say this is enough. Because if you're not enough, whatever you're doing won't be enough. And that's the deep work you've done as well. So well.

And for me, like, if I'm not going to do this anymore, I've got to replace it with something else. So, I mean, the last bicycle I had was like a 10 speed from the 70s. And I just never, I didn't buy it. I had roller blades, I had, I skied, you know, whatever. I did a little bit of surfing here and there and I thought, what's something that I can do all the time that I really enjoy that's less pounding? So I went out and got a really good mountain bike, then I got another really good one and then I got a third one, you know what I mean? Three different kind of bikes for three different kinds of surfaces. And you can go, you know, 30, 40, 50 miles and come home feeling great. You know, I mean, I obviously got the heart, lungs and legs that are working. And you get to see more, cover more ground. You know, you get good shocks on the bike and it's just 1,020 calories later. You know, you have Jackson Hole when you go to Jackson Hole. Just the single track, whatever. Just riding our bikes into town or into Teton national park with my wife. It's just an amazing experience. And we cover, like I said, we cover more ground, see more things, and we come back unscathed, which is key.

Now you're also getting nature therapy when you do that too, which also we know that makes you live longer, makes you happier. So you've evolved practices in your life so that you've built some happiness. In what percentage of the time would you say you're genuinely happy?

Oh, I love that question. I wish it were more. I wish it were more because I'm happy, addicted. I mean, it's in the damn Constitution, Dave, the pursuit of happiness. You know what I mean? I'm working out hard. All my workout buddies are actors in comics mostly, right? They're just funny people. They can turn a phrase, they're Just great company. We're always kind of busting each other up a little bit. That's part of it. My wife is hilarious. I did stand up for two years and I was with Second City LA for a year when I was a C minus student with a speech impediment. And I was a target at school at the bus stop. No matter what, humor was my only way to get out of trouble. So I love making people laugh and I love laughing hard. I watch a lot of comedy specials. You know, I mean I, I understand the importance of laughter and, and there's more dopamine again. But yeah, I, I would say it's every day. I laugh hard several times a day because of some, something somebody else said or something I saw or something my wife has said to me. The other day we're in Rhode island at my buddy's wedding and, and I, you know, I'm in Rhode Island, I'm there for 10 days and I'm not eating as clean as I should, you know, but I look in a two way mirror, I go, oh my God, honey, what is this? She goes, oh, those are chunks. I go, chunks? What's the chunk? And she goes, I don't know, but it's that, you know what I mean? I go, oh my God, I got chunks now making up turns for my obliques. And that's part of my, I think my why I look, the way I do, the way that I feel, the way I do, the way, you know, I haven't dealt with any sort of shingles in seven years. It's the joy and the laughter and the mindfulness practices too. That, that combination and the working hard and eating clean. I mean it's, you know as well as I do and you. In the hacking part, there's still some, there's a lot of room for growth for me there. And I appreciate some of the stuff that you shared with me today.

Some of the stuff that when you just look at data and say I'm going to do the stuff that's not supposed to work. I tried everything I was supposed to and then said I'll try the stuff that seems stupid, right? And if it's works dramatically, okay, I, I guess I had an assumption about reality that was wrong and I do my best to share it. And sometimes it's frustrating and you know, it's frustrating because people like, well that can't be. I'm like, well how much data do you need? And you could try it for a week and see if I'm lying. But Then I, I can't try that. And it's the same thing with, you know, okay, people say, I, I could never do P90X. I can. Like, well, have you ever tried? Like, no. Oh, okay. You don't know that you can't do something until you prove you can't do it. And probably you could have done it. You just already convinced yourself you couldn't.

Yeah. And that's. That's just history and culture and surrounding yourself with the wrong kind of people. And. You know what I mean? All the naysayers and finger pointers are still in your life. You got to clear that out and get the new tribe. I mean, you look at P90X, for example. I mean, I don't know, 11 million copies to date, something like that. I don't know what the number is, but a lot of people who. There were so many things in there that if we known that I know now, we could have, like I said, got more people involved. Jeremy Yost, 300 plus pounds, fused right ankle from a football accident from high school. There was no shot he was going to live past 60 because he was grossly obese. He bought P90X, which wasn't designed for him, and he marched in place for the first month and a half, just watching it and learning. And then 180 pounds later, and three rounds later, he's on tour with me all over Europe and Asia, you know, being a madman on stage. Just because he was patient with it. He kept his expectations down. He just was. For the first part of it, he was just in a learning mode. He was just sitting at watching, like he was watching a TV show, you know what I mean? Just standing there, bringing his knees to his hands, and you think to yourself, kudos to you, brother. Like, way to hack this thing to the point where. And they go, oh, I think I can do this move now. And he would try two or three reps. Amazing, amazing story. To see how far he came. Just because he said yes.

It's that belief thing. And having a belief you can do it or a belief you can live longer, too, it helps. And you mentioned something else that, that I think is underappreciated in the longevity circles because it's. It's not cool and it's not sexy. It's not tech. It's not grit. It's the value of humor. And I. I sometimes open up a talk. I'll say, well, you know, if the calendar says I'm 50, the lab test say I'm 39 or maybe 24. Depending what lab test you like. I don't think I would look like I'm 24, but my arteries apparently are. And, and they say, but my real metric is I still have my seventh grade sense of humor and I make the dumbest jokes. I think it keeps you younger. Either that or it makes everyone else around you older. But either way, maybe you're sucking the youthfulness out of them with dumb jokes. So I'm going to keep doing it. And the people who lose their sense of humor, they get old and angry quickly.

Yeah, dude. I mean, you know, I always make a joke. Oh, you know, I found that I might be suffering from early onset curmudgeon disorder. Early onset curmudgeon disorder can lead to chronic curmudgeon disorder. But then again, if you just keep on keeping on with that lame behavior and that bad company and those myopic opinions, it's terminal curmudgeon disorder. Get off my lawn. You know, I mean, your sphere of friends are smaller and smaller. You know, I think the other thing too that, that I don't think we've talked about is like I've got, I've got a massive group of friends. You know, there was a guy walking down the street one day, I was delivering some of my protein powder to my neighbor because he let me stay at his place in Mammoth. And this guy was like hovering, you know, he was like, oh, we got my, got my other stalker coming. And he just came up and said, hey, you saved my career. And he tells me why, because he had a fused right shoulder and, and there was a rehab stuff that he was doing. I'm on tonal, so he was doing that. And it turns out he's the head of the gang unit here for the FBI in la, you know what I mean? And this fascinating guy who's just walking down the street is one of my dearest friends. I'm always open because like you just spending whatever time, we're going to spend an hour. Plus a lot of people are so close minded, they don't have new friends. All the friends they have are starting to die off or aren't doing anything anymore. And they're looking, you know, they're looking through a buttonhole at their life and they can't figure out why they went from early onset chromosome disorder to terminal. And it's just about being fearless in these simple areas, like how can you laugh more, how can you search out new people who can maybe not maybe necessarily teach you something. Maybe some of them will, but a lot of them are just great company. And you learn from them. I mean, I've learned so much about. About his job and his career. And now he's stationed in London. He's got this really amazing job in London. And before. And I said, hey, we're going to London. He goes, let me connect you with these five people. And our experience in London was completely different because a stranger was walking down the street and said, hello, you know, and by the way, if you're ever in London, you got to go to the Cinnamon Club. Dave, if you don't know what that.

Is, what's the Cinnamon Club?

It's a restaurant. It's a. It's an Indian restaurant like you have never tasted. I mean, it's not regular Indian. If you love Indian food, you will love this 10 times more. It's crazy. And so, you know, one more thing he turned me onto. And I've turned like five other people who've also. The Cinnamon Club's insane.

You probably just turn another. There'll be a. Wait to get in for a while after this.

Yeah, yeah. With your fan base. The food there is my wife and I. Best food we've ever had in our life.

Wow. Okay. Next time I'm in London, I'm absolutely putting on my list. It's interesting too. You mentioned friends from all over the place. When I was in my 20s, one of the most powerful things I did that helped me be who I am and get where I am today. I ended up getting a bunch of friends who were in their 70s and 80s and 90s because I went to the anti aging group where all the old people are getting young and like, I'm going to a friend's 80th birthday and.