The Power of Shame with Depressed Comedian Kristen Carney – #627

I use a little bit of. I guess what it would be is I think shame is a very useful tool and so is a little self hatred. And I hate to say that.

You're so dark. All right.

I know I'm the worst. And that's why I was like, why am I on the show? Bulletproof radio. A state of high performance.

You're listening to Bulletproof Radio with Dave Asprey. Today's cool fact of the day is that we're getting pretty close to brain zapping implants that could help you fight depression. Scientists at University of California, San Francisco implanted hundreds of tiny electrodes about the size of a sesame seed in the outer layer of a 44 year old woman's brain. Then they kicked off a tiny electrical, they call it an earthquake at different spots in her brain. And the woman didn't notice most of the vectoral pulses, but when they targeted the brain area just behind her eyes, she said she felt calmer in her nerves. And with stimulation to that one part of the brain, other study participants sat up a little straighter and seemed a little bit more alert. And those positive mood changes that were in response to very light neural jolts brought those researchers closer to a really big goal we've had for a long time, which is a device that you can put into the brain of severely depressed people to detect a big crisis coming on and zap the brain out of it, almost like stopping a seizure. And to other scientists who have studied depression for decades, it's a big deal in neuroscience. Of the about 16.2 million US adults with severe depression, about a third of them don't respond to conventional treatments. If you've checked out my YouTube channel or the podcast I did about transcranial magnetic stuff, you'll see a picture of me. I look like a Smurf. My face is all wrapped up in this blue neoprene thing with a $250,000 giant magnet zapping my head. That also seems to work. And in that same podcast, we talked about ketamine, which is another thing. But what would happen if you actually could use technology so you didn't need drugs and you didn't have to have, you know, 10 ton, $250,000 magnet strapped to your head because it's hard to walk. Actually, you can't even move when you're doing that. So what scientists have figured out is using tech, not drugs, that there are some key features of depressed brains. There's certain types of brainwaves in specific locations, like that one behind and slightly above your eyes. And other researchers are looking at how do you correct that faulty brain activity? Certainly neurofeedback is part of it. You've heard of my 40 years of Zen program, which is doing really well. We don't, we don't treat depression there, but we look at a depressed brain, you can see what it looks like. And the idea of implanting something's interesting. The idea of sticking something to your head is also interesting. But what I want you to know, even if you don't have depression, you probably know someone who does have depression. It's a big deal. And sometimes medications can absolutely save people's lives and other times there's lots of other things to do with it, but it's something that affects the fabric of society. It's a big deal. And the idea that we can hack that makes me pretty happy. You might have been wondering, gee, I wonder if Dave's going to talk about depression. And that's because I have now actually earned a PhD in the art of foreshadowing. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you definitely know about that. And, well, we are going to talk about depression, but we're also going to talk about humor and how the two come together. Because today's guest is a really interesting woman. She's hard to pin down. Like, well, what do you actually do? And the answer is lots of cool stuff. She's a comedian, a writer, a podcaster, does stand up comedy at live shows on tv and she's written for Comedy Central and the Adam Carolla Show. She co hosted Loveline with Dr. Drew and Mike as well as co hosted the Adam Carolla show. And, and she co hosts the Ask Women podcast where she's willing to talk about pretty much anything you can think about, bedroom or not. So we will talk about things that are funny and probably sexy. And we're also going to talk about living with clinical depression because you probably didn't know that Kristen Carney has clinical depression as well as doing all that other fun stuff. Kristen, welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me. I really feel just so alive by that intro. I actually don't realize that I do all those things because my brain is always weighed down by depression. So that actually was flattering to hear that I do all those things. I'm like, oh, that's kind of cool.

Do you have imposter syndrome?

I definitely do.

So even though you're doing, I mean, those are some serious credentials I just read out. I mean, those are, I mean, dare I call them game changer level things, but okay, Adam Kroll is kind of a badass. Dr. Drew is kind of a badass. I've been on both of their shows. And good human beings, but also hundreds of millions of eyeballs causing positive change in the world, creating joy and things like that. Yeah, I kind of write for those guys. Whatever. What does the voice in your head tell you? The depressed voice in your head tell you?

Well, ever since I was a kid, everything has been not just glass half empty. It's glass totally empty. I don't know why my brain's been like that. I don't know if it was learned or if I just came out of the womb feeling like, well, that womb was half empty. I have looked at everything, always with a negative light, and it's made my life incredibly difficult. And so I feel like I have a little part masochist in me because no matter what I do, it's not good enough and it's not interesting enough because I let reality in my current moment weigh me down. So, like, for example, right now, you listed all of those credentials, but what you can't see is I have a frame from a child's bed covered in an egg crate that's ripped and has, like, stains on it to try to reduce the echo in my room. And so in my mind, a real professional wouldn't have that. A person who's achieved things wouldn't have that.

So have you seen. Okay, I'm just gonna turn my camera for a minute. Okay. Do you see all the chaos around here?

Yeah, but it's like beautiful chaos. And I think because I can get shallow enough, I can say, well, it's beautiful chaos. Cause it cost money, you know? And I'm like, well, my thing didn't cost money, so it's not beautiful chaos. I'm broke, so it doesn't. You know, it doesn't matter.

So the voice in your head saying, like, I don't have enough money. I'm not doing it as good as some other. And it's pretty much constantly there, or does it come and go?

It's constant. It's constant. But it's weird because I have flashes. It's almost like little jolts of lightning that don't hit often because I'm not lucky enough to get hit by lightning. But every once in a while, they come in and I see things clearly. And that's something I hang on to, to be able to move forward to the next day or the next week because I had this little flash of, oh, things are great, I have a wonderful life and I'm doing great. But then it goes away. But I remember it. It's like I hold onto it like a little, you know, I tuck it away in a special box that I'd put under my bed.

Wow.

And pull out when I'm lonely or something.

So what does it do to you if someone just looks at you and just like pets your hair and says, I think you're so amazing, and just like stares at you? Does the voice in your head just be like, screw you, buddy, or do you just melt?

Well, part of me is like a raging narcissist because I'll be like, oh, my God. I know. Thank you.

That's your comedian side.

That's. But that's also the non comedian side because the, the like, I feel like part of me is like a Woody Allen type where it's just constant talking to myself. No, no, no, this was wrong. I didn't, I shouldn't have done this. And I, I, I don't, I don't know what that voice is. It's, I'm kind of losing track right now trying to even figure out what that voice is or what your question was. Actually, just now I was just wondering.

What your voice does if someone really comes in and just validates it. It says all the things that a depressed voice doesn't do. I wonder how it affects you versus how it affects someone who doesn't have clinical depression.

Okay, Right. So, yeah, so I'll take it in and I'll agree and that will last. That's that little flash of lightning. And then the other side comes in and shows me the evidence of all the things that I'm not. And so then I'll be like, yeah, okay, buddy. Like, I don't know if you're, you know, just trying to get somewhere with me or if you're, you know, what your ulterior motive is. I don't trust it. I assume that there's something else going on for someone to say something so lovely and nice to me for no reason.

So you have sort of an inner skeptic that's maybe a little bit more buff than the average person.

Yeah, I mean, he's like Schwarzenegger. My inner skeptic is Schwarzenegger. And my inner narcissist is like tiny little bite sized. I don't want to say something politically incorrect. Someone from little people, big world. Just leave it at that. You know, it's a small, it's a smaller physical structure.

Okay. I Just make sure that wasn't a comment about hands, was it?

No, no. You have lovely hands, by the way.

No, I don't mean my hands. I was just thinking of some other person who shall remain nameless. You know what I'm talking about?

No. Oh, yes, yes. Someone who's in politics.

And by the way, I have never expressed an opinion about politics on this show at all because frankly, I follow politics about as well as I follow professional sports, which is to say, not that well.

Yeah, same.

Now, getting back to the clinical depression side, you said something interesting. You said maybe I was. You said, maybe it's how I came out of the womb. So do you have this background of, like, dark trauma? I mean, did you come out of the womb, you know, with birth trauma and forceps and have a rough childhood on the streets of New York or something?

Honestly, I think it's just traumatizing that I had to be in my mom's vagina at all. So I think we all start out in a dark place. We're like, I was in there, oh, my God, I've touched my mom's vagina. That's a weird concept to know that we've all had contact. It'd be, you know, it's like we've never had contact with our dad's, you know, junk, hopefully. But it's just, you know, a thing that we all have touched our mom's vagina and we don't. We don't talk about it like it's a strange thing. So I think that's where the damage began. It's just knowing I was in my mom's badge. But, no, I didn't really. I didn't have a dark childhood in the sense of having a bad family or abuse. But I, at the age of three, developed. I don't know. That's not the right word because, you know, you don't develop a lazy eye, but you do. I guess develop just sounds positive, you know, like your grow. Growth is development. But with me, I, at the age of three, started to show signs of a crossed eye, which turned out to be something called accommodative esotropia, which essentially is, I guess, your muscle trying to see clearly. And in its attempt to see clearly, your eye crosses. It's almost like it can't pat its head and rub its belly at the same time. It's like you can't do two things at once. So your eye is essentially giving up the straightness in order to see 20. 20.

Wow.

So at that young age All I knew was those are my first memories are of having a crossed eye. And I think that affected me so deeply.

But you don't see in how I identify. At least I don't see it.

Do you actually? Well, I have this special thing on the camera here that makes my eye look straight.

Okay. I totally.

No, no, no. I do not have a crossover.

Okay. I'm thinking, man, I'm crazy here, because you don't. Okay, so it went away.

Well, so it didn't necessarily just go away. I had surgery, and it was a pretty traumatic surgery where the doctor came in and cut my muscle essentially to shorten it and tighten it so it became stronger or something like that. I never really have understood the surgery, but then I had to wear a patch over my eye. And I have really thick glasses that you can't see because I'm masking them with contact lenses at the moment. But when I do take my contacts out, my eye does cross again.

Are you kidding?

Yep. So I have a very dark secret that I feel like I keep and I've kept my whole life, which I think has affected me.

So. You know what's weird? It's actually making me laugh because one of the things that helped me figure out the psychology side of why I did all sorts of stupid stuff when I was younger is that I met this lady when I was 30, and she looked at me, she goes, tell me about your birth. And I'm like, hospitals, vaginas don't really know. That's kind of a weird question. It was at a personal development thing, and she was running it. Her name was Barbara Findeisent. And it turns out I'd been born with the umbilical cord wrapped around my neck, which didn't cut off oxygen. But there's birth trauma. And you come into the world thinking, like, everyone's out to get me and the world's a bad place and there's something trying to kill you.

Well, they're right.

Yeah, pretty much. So anyway, she helped me do a bunch of work on that stuff, which is why I asked the first question. But then the other thing, I don't know if I've ever talked about it on the show for probably till I was about 35, my brain would turn off my left eye. I didn't know it, but I was not seeing with both eyes because it was so much work for my brain to make my eyes work together that it would just go away. And so I would just look through my right eye. And I used to have, like, a Droopy left eye, too, that I was super conscious about. And I went through about three months of really intense training, like visual training that just made me exhausted when I do it. And now this. More than, what, almost 15 years later. How old am I? 11 years later. I can. I'm 2015 in both eyes, and I don't have that problem anymore. But it was like a couple years of cognitive, or not cognitively, just changing my brain neurologically.

Wow. See, that takes work. And you're the type who works and you work hard to figure out, you know, hacking, how to make yourself stronger, how to make life stronger. That takes work and energy, and I hate work. And I have no energy. So if someone said, here's a way to keep your eyes straight, you know, it would just take immense amount of work, I would say, nah, I think I'm good with the crossed eye. I'm very lazy.

Okay, so there's strategic laziness here, Kristen. And the question is, if you're truly lazy, avoiding the annoyance and pain of having something can be as big of a motivator. I think I'm the laziest person on the planet. I just don't like to do stuff. So if I can automate it or I can spend less time or energy doing it, I'll take that path because I'm super lazy. And that does free up time to do something that I wanted to do.

The problem is that, yeah, you're a motivated, lazy person. And that makes total sense. I'm like a lazy, lazy person. I'm the real deal. You wouldn't have street cred amongst my types.

All right, well, so are you. Is that what you're calling laziness? Although I'm kind of looking back to what we talked about here. I'm like, let's see, you have all these professional gigs like, oh, yeah, Love line. I'm a stand up comedian. Total loser. Me. I'm like, this does not match. Right. So your self professed laziness that is not borne out is in your career. Is that because of your clinical depression or is it from something else?

I've always struggled with that. And that was one of the first things when I finally talked to a psychiatrist because I was ironically too lazy to find one. Once I did find one, I said, I don't know if I'm lazy or if I'm depressed. And he said, you're depressed. And that was a huge, huge burden lifted off of my shoulders because then I didn't have to, which I loved. Not take responsibility for my lack of work ethic or my lack of drive or my lack of whatever it is. Because he said it's your depression. So in a way, I got to take blame away from myself. And even though he's told me it's your depression, I still have a hard time buying it. It's the same. Like, if someone complimented me, I'd be like, I don't know. But I think it's a combination of both. I look at, like, my family and what I'm from. We're not the. We're not the hardest working group of folks out there. Our last name's Carney. What do you expect? And so. And so I think I come by it naturally, but I have this tick in me that needs to achieve. So it's a difficult combination to be incredibly lazy, but also to want to amount to something. So it's a constant thunderstorm, you know, trying to fight those two things at the same time, or together they're fighting each other.

Well, it seems to be working on some levels for you, at least professionally. Okay. That side of things has been dominant. I'm still interested, though. You said something fascinating. You said, when I was diagnosed with depression, it was a weight off your shoulders. And I also. I thought there was something just wrong with me. I'm like, I don't know. I'm about to fail out of Wharton, and I feel like I'm kind of stupid some of the time. And it turns out I was, because I went in and I got a brain scan with Dr. Amen, who's been on the show now and has become a friend. And they're like, you have a hardware problem in your brain, Dave. It's actually not getting blood flow. And see these big holes right here? That's where you have chemical damage to your brain. I'm like, oh, my God. It's not a moral failing. It's not that I'm just weak. It's that there's something that is wrong. And I'm pretty sure we can fix a hardware problem. So I went in and did a bunch of stuff, and I was like, wow, I didn't even know how. I don't know the upper levels of what my brain's capable of. I'm still plumbing that. Have you gone in and said, all right, what's up with my brain, doc? Give me some antidepressants. Give me some whatevers. Have you gone down and sort of looked at that?

Well, again, I hate to keep saying this, but I think I'm too lazy because I don't know where to start. It's like, if I don't have. And I think a lot of depressed people struggle with this and people in general, but if you don't have a starting point, you just don't start at all. And so for me, if I don't have a starting point, like, I don't know where to look necessarily to get a brain scan. I don't know how much that would cost. I don't know, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so when you're depressed, you're so weighed down by the smallest little tasks, like, you know, getting up to take a shower or, you know, paying your car bill. Those things feel so heavy that the last thing on your list is figuring out how to get a brain scan. Like, no, no, no. I'm still trying to figure out how to get out of bed. So I don't get to that point because I don't really ever feel, like, emotionally strong enough to. But I would love to like you saying that. I want. If I got a brain scan and he showed me the holes, I would like, please print this out, hang this on my wall, frame it so that I can, one feel like, great about myself for actually going out and. And doing that and figuring that out, but also to have proof that it's not my fault again, you know, I can.