In this episode of The Human Upgrade, Dave Asprey and Teal Swan discuss narcissism, challenging the conventional view of it as a personality disorder. Teal frames narcissism as a relational adaptation—a coping mechanism that emerges in zero‑trust, zero‑sum environments where individuals prioritize their own narrative and best interests to the exclusion of others. They explore how this self‑focused narrative creates a "narcissistic bubble" that unconsciously harms others, contrasting it with sociopathy, which involves conscious manipulation. The conversation moves to a spectrum of self‑interest, ranging from overt narcissism to manipulative or codependent strategies, and examines how gender influences the expression of narcissism. Teal notes that men tend to display narcissism overtly, while women often mask it with victimhood, leading to a double standard where women are quickly labeled "bitches" or "Karens" when asserting their interests. They discuss the emerging neuroscience linking a victim mindset to harsher judgment of others and the cultural label of "Karen" for such behavior. Throughout, the dialogue remains conversational and reflective, offering personal anecdotes and practical observations on recognizing and navigating narcissistic dynamics in personal and professional relationships.
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I think all of our listeners are curious because you talk a lot about narcissism.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ultimately, the people who betray you, they could just be assholes and criminals or they could be narcissists. What's the difference?
For me, when I'm using the word narcissism, I don't mean it in the same way that most people do because I don't agree with the standard definition most people have for narcissism. Most people consider it a personality defect or a disorder, and I consider it a relational adaptation. Because it's a relational adaptation, it can be a coping mechanism that any individual employs when they feel like they have to play a zero sum game and to do so, identify only with their own best interest to the detriment of everyone and everything around them.
Let's compare that with the way I'm looking at this. I think there's a lot of alignment, and I've studied narcissism a lot because I think two of the big betrayals have been narcissism and one of them sociopathy, the ones that I've dealt with. So I've had, like, a really nice, really nice mix, a mix of business and even family stuff. So it's been a masterclass. And within the bucket of narcissism, it means that you believe your own story to such an extent that you're willing to destroy or cancel or ignore anything that doesn't match your narrative. So someone who tests your narrative like I'm a good boy or I'm a good girl, they're automatically a bad person and they have to be removed. And it doesn't really matter which way. You cannot see that you're doing it. You don't even know that you're doing that because you're such a good person. So for me, it's you believe your own bullshit instead of believing reality, and then you use that unconsciously to harm others. And then the sociopathy time is when you do it consciously. So what's the difference between your view there and where I'm looking at that?
What you're describing is one element of slipping into a narcissistic bubble where you've created a reality built for one, and inside that reality is your own best interests, without room for other people's best interests or perspectives or experiences or, you know, we could write a pretty long list for that one.
Sure. What are the other aspects of narcissism?
Honestly, every single element of narcissism could fit into that standard definition, which is you have to think about your own best interests. And that includes your own narrative and your own worldview to the exclusion of others. I mean, if we sat here and we talked about, like with a standard psychiatrist or psychologist, all of these criteria, that would cause somebody to qualify as a narcissist. It's a symptom of what I've just described because it's a condition that originates out of an environment that, just like the condition itself is innately an environment of no trust in a zero trust type of environment. A person can't rely on other people to capitalize on their best interests. And so they have to find creative ways to fight for their own. And you either see people slide towards the narcissistic end of the spectrum where they're like, all right, this is a zero sum game. I'm basically in a shark pit and so I'm going to learn how to fight for myself against others. Or they swing towards the manipulative end of the scale, the more codependent end of the scale, where it's, I'm going to find creative ways to go for my best interest. But by exploiting and manipulating your best interest.
Is there a difference between the way women and men show narcissism?
I mean, men tend to be more overt about it, if you want the honest truth.
I just wanted the dishonest truth.
I feel like women are a lot more sneaky about their narcissism.
Interesting.
And they tend to. Narcissism tends to take on, I've noticed in women a much more like a tinge of victimhood. Because when women come out the gate and are more overt about going for their best interests against, they're more seen quickly as narcissists, are called out as narcissists even when they're not being that way. I mean, even if when a woman sort of goes for her best interest in any way, she's like, oh, that's a bitch.
So a double standard then.
Yeah, there's a double standard. So women tend to get further with their narcissism when they make themselves out to be the victim in any circumstance.
I watch for victim thinking and victim language, and anyone that's in my inner circle, they either need to quickly resolve that line of thinking or not be in my inner circle. Because the studies now are coming out in neuroscience that show people who see themselves as a victim. It doesn't matter what kind of victim, just any kind of victim. That that means you're much more likely to judge others against a much harsher set of rules and to call for way, way more extreme penalties. It turns you into a Karen if you think you're a victim. And, you know, people may not like that term. My Aunt Karen doesn't. But whatever you want to call it, that stereotype, there's something to it. And guys do that, too. I don't know what the male Karens are called. Karen O's or something, but it's. It's a thing.
We should come up with a new term for male Karens.
I like it. What do you think? If I could say some. But all of the people would probably be on my list of narcissists who cost me huge amounts of money or pain, so I probably would not be unbiased in my naming of names.
I don't think any of us would.
You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.
