Sleep, The Ultimate Performance Hack

Take a power nap, less than 30 minutes, and earlier in the day, and it's really critical, do it before 3 PM. Otherwise, you've wasted the nap.

Hello and welcome back to the Wellness Musketeers. I'm Aussie Mike James. And today we're talking about something that affects every single one of us— sleep. It's something we all do, but few of us do well. And the truth is, how you sleep affects everything— your energy, your memory, your mood, your fitness, and even how long you live. We've got our usual crew on board. Dr. Richard Kennedy, our medical expert. Hello, Rich. Good. Our economist and wellness-minded thinker, Ketil Vitting.

Hello. Yes, you got the name right this time.

I did. I tell you what, it's only taken me 2 years. Must've been the good sleep I had.

Yeah.

And David Liss, personal trainer and our resident podcast wrangler. And before we jump in, folks, don't forget to follow or subscribe to the Wellness Musketeers. On Apple or Spotify. If you like what you hear, share this with a friend and leave us a review, 4-star review of course. It helps others discover us. Let's dive right into this topic of sleep and why it is the most underrated superpower we have. Dr. Kennedy, can you kick us off? What actually happens when we sleep and why is it so critical for our health?

Thank you, Mike. What happens when we sleep, simply put, Sleeping is our body's way of tuning us up and building us up for the next day. I call it the recovery phase of all that has happened the day before. What actually happens when we go to sleep, as it gets dark, the gland in the brain called the pineal gland releases a chemical called melatonin, which basically makes us feel sleepy. It helps us to prepare to get into sleep. And then once that happens, we fall asleep. We get into— there are basically 4 different phases of sleep that we all go through. Stage 1, which is just really light sleep. And this is where we transition from wakefulness where our muscles relax, our heart rate slows, but it's still easy to wake us. And that's typically about 1 to 5 to 10 minutes. Then there's the next phase of light sleep where our body temperature drops, eye movements that we were having slows down, our brain shows sleep spindles, which are these special things inside the brain. That gets us ready. Then we get into what we call deep sleep, which is essentially the most restorative stage of sleep where we get to have tissue repair happening, our immune system gets boosted, and it becomes harder to wake us. And then stage 4, what we call REM sleep or REM, which is rapid eye movement. Is where, that's where the dreaming occurs for the most part, for most of us. And it'll be vivid dreams. It's where the brain activity spikes and the body is paralyzed. This typically happens over about a 90-minute period, and then it recycles through the night. And that's where we get to normal sleep-wake pattern.

Okay.

Dr. K, I noticed there's a number of apps that can track that. I don't know a lot about them, but I use the Apple, Apple Watch and that tracks your sleep pretty well. Do any of the panel know of a good app that really tracks your sleep other than the Apple Watch?

I think there are a bunch. I use some on Apple. I think you can just look for sleep tracking on your, at the App Store. I think they do variations. I don't, it's fascinating to me how they work, how they know what phase of sleep you're at when they're just laying next to you in your bed.

But yeah, there's various devices now that you can at least track that. But when we're talking about Quality sleep, but Dr. K, what are the signs we're maybe not getting quality sleep? Even if we've had long hours and sleep, essentially asleep, and we're still feeling jaded and not—

So do you mean this after we've already awakened from sleep?

Yeah.

A lot of it has to do with how we function during the day. Are we alert? Is our ability to focus like we normally would during the course of that early part of the day? Are we irritable, do we have some level of anxiety, do we become forgetful? Those are the sort of early things that tell you that even though you technically might be sleeping 6, 7, 8, 9 hours, that you're not. And it becomes a repetitive thing because you— or the even more simple thing is that you almost feel like by midday you got to take a nap.

Okay.

So even though you technically slept for a long period of time, your body is still telling you you're not really awake.

Right.

And you're not really alert and focused.

Okay. So just on napping, is that good or bad or indifferent for us, or does it depend individually?

Actually, napping is good up to a point. Nobody should nap more than 30 minutes. Napping should occur before 3:00 PM because if you do it after 3:00 PM, typically it will interfere with your ability to sleep later in the evening.

Okay.

And one of the ways you gain a benefit from napping is that afterwards, and they call it, we call it power nap, where it's 10 to 30 minutes, and it's not something you should be doing every day. If you're napping every day, then it means that your nighttime sleep is not— you're not sleeping the way we would expect you to sleep throughout the day. If you're feeling that you got to nap every day, every now and then, and this is where people who, for whatever reason, instead of you sleeping your normal 7 hours or 8 hours, you only slept 6 hours for 2, 3 nights in a row. And so what ends up happening, your body starts to say, I, I need to catch up. I need to catch up. And so sleeping, taking a quick power nap will help you to focus. If you sleep too long, meaning if you take a nap that's an hour and 15 minutes, typically after that happens, you're more groggy as the day goes on. You find yourself yawning more throughout the day. So although you took a nap and you should have felt refreshed, and that's what should happen after you take a power nap, less than 30 minutes, and earlier in the day, and it's really critical, do it before 3 PM. Otherwise, you've wasted the nap.

Can you— two questions at once. Can you catch up on sleep? And you talk about don't take a nap after 3 PM. By the same token, Should— when should you stop drinking caffeine during the day?

You probably should stop drinking caffeine or any other— same thing with chocolate, probably not past 4 or 5. And partly because if you think about it, the effects of caffeine, any kind of caffeine, may last— still be in your system 6 hours later.

Wow.

And so if it's there 6 hours later, then by default when— and caffeine counters what melatonin is supposed to do. Melatonin is that chemical that is starting to prepare us, to make us prepare for sleep. If you take caffeine or same thing with alcohol, why you don't drink alcohol late, why you don't do caffeine late. And why you don't eat heavy meals, spicy meals, things like that, because they all do the same thing. They all make your body— and what they do is they cause your sugar to go up. And when your sugar goes up, then it sends a chemical reaction and it alters what happens at night with our cortisol and with our insulin.

Is it By the same token, should you not exercise too close to sleep?

Correct. You should— there should be at least an hour to 2 hours before where you have completed your physical activity before you go to sleep. Again, same principle. Once you're exercising, you've released all this the cortisol, the growth hormone, the glucagon, the adrenaline, all of those things actually— and again, they don't go away all at once. They go away over time. I always say, think of it this way. Melatonin's job is to put us into the mode where we want to sleep. Cortisol, growth hormone, glucagon, which is essentially an excessive amount of sugar being pushed into the circulation, causes the counter effects of melatonin.

So that happens when you exercise?

Yeah. When you exercise, those chemicals get released.

Yeah. Yeah. Because I've seen that because my, my wife had a glucose monitor, you know, like continuous one. And actually there was an interesting thing when just during or after exercise, the spike, it spiked.

Yes.

And even that, even if she hadn't eaten and actually in the morning it spiked too. Yeah.

And that's again, the physiologic— if you think about it, when you're exercising, you're using your muscles and your muscles are breaking down. When they're breaking down, what are they releasing into the circulation beside the amino acids? It's glucose.

Oh, yeah. Okay.

And so your sugar then tends to go up, which then sends a signal to the brain to send a signal to the pancreas. We need to push some insulin out there. And you now have altered what would normally be happening when we're sleeping.

Is there, you know, after I retired, I started sleeping more, obviously, because I didn't need to get up that early and I didn't have that very clear activities. I would hit easily 8 hours and sometimes even 9 hours. Can you sleep too much?

It is a hard question. I think that's an individual thing because, and then that leads into what for a person over 50, what is the normal amount of hours we should sleep? And that typically is 7 to 9 hours for a person, for a person for 18 to 64, they say 7 to 9 hours for 64 plus. They, 65 plus, they say 7 to 8 hours.

It's less.

Yeah. And as we age, what ends up happening, we start to get tired earlier. So we go to bed earlier and thereby we wake up earlier. And so you see, I see this with my father-in-law who's 92, is that all of a sudden he's up at 5 AM religiously. And they've been living with us 10 years and he used to be getting up 6, 6:30, 7. And what it does is it alters your sleep pattern. And this goes to why it's important to get sunlight and to go out in the sun, because we'll talk about it a little bit more. The circadian rhythm, which is the brain and the body's cycle to a 24-hour cycle. And it uses it based on light and darkness. And when we get light, when we go out in the light, that signal goes into our brain. And all of this happens at the— what is that called? It's called the suprachiasmatic nucleus, which is out of the hypothalamus. That's a part of the brain.

That's some science.

And it's supposed to, it is the, they call it the master regulator of our circadian rhythm.

Oh, okay. So what I use that you talked about light, I use sometimes some eye, eye shields. Shields that, and in the beginning you think, ah, it doesn't, but it really works a shot and really is strong. Yeah.

They, when they work.

Yeah. And if you spend— there's some light, not a lot of light, but there's a little bit light. And even keeping that out is very important.

I have a couple of friends and they just got back, different trips, but they were in Norway near the Arctic Circle. And it was, when they were at the Arctic Circle, it was 24 hours of sunlight. And I don't know how that affects people. Have you lived in that kettle?

I spent a summer up there. This problem is generally tend to spend more time during the night or so sleep less, at least during the night. But again, you need to have very good shades for your room and curtains. So it keeps out the light and if not, it's very hard to sleep enough.

And then by the, on the opposite side, if you, if it's 18, 20 hours of darkness, how does that affect? People.

Then you, I, when I grew up in Norway, I generally in the morning, I would have to always get up before the light. And when you come home in from school, that's ended quite early, it was dark. And of course it keeps your, you see it, you know, to keep going, you keep it, it's a little harder. So people drink a lot of coffee.

Yeah.

And I also spent a winter up in the north where it's actually even darker there. I really drank a lot of coffee and I got kind of problems because in my stomach because of that.

Yeah. Because it stimulates a lot of acid release.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's helpful to wake yourself up, but it's not helpful to stay awake, really.

And that brings up another thing is that probably one of the best things every person can do is to put themselves on a sleep-wake schedule, meaning that you get up a certain time every morning. And you go to bed pretty much the same time you typically, and if you get into a routine like that, your sleep tends to be more regulated and improved. And it's like here in the US, you have lots of people who are shift workers.

Yeah.

Who work 4:00 PM to midnight and 12:00 AM to 8:00 AM. Well, for them, because light and darkness is almost reversed, in order for them to still get their 7 to 9 hours of sleep, it's important for them to do that when they have to— when they get off at midnight, it's still dark. It's easier for them to fall asleep. But come 7:00 AM, when they're still asleep, still sleeping, in order for them to stay asleep for that 7 hours, 8 hours, that's when an eye shield might be useful. It'd also be helpful to be in a dark, cool room because normally— and again, when we're falling asleep, our body temperature, as we start to fall off to sleep, the body slows itself down to begin the overnight repairs. And so the heart rate goes down, our breathing rate goes down, the body temperature goes down. All of this in preparations for regenerating all of the things that have been worn out over the course of the previous day.

How about our screen time? If people, we're all on our phones or watching TV, is it bad, like, for people to put a TV on in the background or?

Yes.

Or is it all that stuff?

Yes. So your phone, so typically your phone your computer, your laptop, your TV essentially emanates something called blue light. And that by itself falsely thinks the body needs to be awake, which means it'll be harder for you to get into the different phases of sleep you need to get. And they, they believe that it decreases the release of melatonin from the brain. If you add the fact that as we get older, we also make less melatonin. Than we did when we were younger.

So another thing, so I noticed that, and it's a little bit related even to the fact, so when I travel, so the question about, so you travel in time zones, so you get jet lag. There are two philosophies in our family about how to beat this. My wife is to force herself to stay up very late when she comes to the States from Europe, for instance. To get into a new rhythm, I basically go with the flow. When I'm sleepy, I sleep. When I'm not sleepy, I don't sleep. And so that's the question, what is the best strategy? Then there's another observation, so you can, to some extent, maybe related, is that I find when I getting over the, so I have a rhythm that normally that's about sleep and then I eat at certain times. And I go to the bathroom a certain time. And all of these things need to be joined for me to be over the jet lag. So the eating time becomes very important too.

It's very true. It goes back to routine. It goes back to a routine. You're right. You and your wife elicit the right thing that each person's a little bit different.

Okay.

So somebody, so one person. May say, I'm going to push through. Now, when I used to travel to Europe, Asia, and Africa, I would push through partly. And again, I always say, interestingly, going particularly going to Europe, Asia, you end up tip, and it's not surprising why most of the flights leaving the US from the East Coast for sure, leave mid-evening, mid-early afternoon to the early evening.

Yeah.

Because they want you to get there the next morning where basically even though— and your body's going to be jet lagged, but because you're on a plane, it's easier to fall asleep like you normally would based on your time. And when you wake up, you're closer to being in that time zone. Doesn't always work. It's— and there, and again, there are other options that people use. There are people who use the melatonin pills. People use, what is it, valerian root, chamomile tea, CBD, all of these different things. And I always say, this is what works for one person may not work for another.

Yeah. If it's any consolation, Kettle. My brother, an international pilot for about 40 years, he follows the same method you do. He said he's seen all the methods for jet lag, but he says if you fall asleep, you just fall asleep.

I think that's the type of person. So you have some like Dr. Kennedy, the strict type A person, like my wife, they want to control things and they're happy when they control things. And then you have people who go with the flow like me.

I'm not entering into that one. We'll leave that. That's a whole other podcast, Kettle.

Happy wife, happy life.

Yeah, I can't wait to meet those Type A personalities.

Oh, okay, careful. Moving on. Okay, let's talk about who needs how much sleep. Dr. K, what are the general guidelines for different age groups, from infants to older folks like maybe us, some of us getting old. Okay.

So infants need, they need the most sleep because they need that time for their brains to develop, for their muscles to develop, the nerve roots and everything, their organs. Like 0 to 3 months, they're probably What is it? 14 to 17 hours a day. By the time you get to 1 to 2 years old, it's 10 to 12 hours. When you get a little bit older, the 3 to 5, and it's not surprising. It's how we, how our children, even when they're in preschools and things that there's nap time built into Is nap time built in the morning of their day? Is nap time built in the afternoon of their day? And then of course they go home and they go to sleep. So they need about 10 hours as well. And it's not until you get to about 13, 13 years old, 13 to 18, where you start to see 8 to 12 hours of sleep is normal. And then after 18 to 64, we tend to say 7 to 9 hours. 65 plus, 7 to 8 hours. And then it said, because there are a lot of elderly people would tell you they they don't sleep more than 4 or 5 hours a night. And there are a lot of different reasons for that as well.

Do women or men sleep— need the same amount of sleep?

Technically, everyone believes women need more sleep than men. And that's because women have more hormonal changes as they go through life, through menstrual cycles, through pregnancy, through menopause. All of these things. And so they believe that, I think it was, I was reading, it was either Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic where it's saying that women need about 11 minutes more per night than men. And then again, as we age after the age of 50, everybody's sleep patterns changes, but women, so for instance, Women have more— there's a greater association with women with mood disorders. So with depression, anxiety, things like that. Men actually have more sleep apnea than women until you get to menopause, and then women and men have about the same amount of sleep disorder.

Can you catch up on sleep?

Can you catch up on sleep? Up to a point, I'd say. So in other words, let's say for 2, 3 nights you wake up and you end up waking up an hour early or you go to bed an hour later, but you still wake up the same time. 2, 3 nights, you'd be 2, 4, that'll be essentially 3 to 4 hours. You might be able to catch up if you go to bed a little bit early and sleep a little bit later. The other way would be to start to integrate nap time into, but that's for short term. In other words, if a person's what we would call sleep deprived, meaning you've, you're no longer sleeping your regular 7 to 9 hours, but you're doing 5 to 6 hours and you're doing it for a month, you're probably not going to catch up with it that way. Those people, that's when you— that's where first then you entertain simple things. So you try to make sure you get on a regular sleep schedule because a lot of times this is— and this goes back to travel. When people are traveling, their sleep patterns get disrupted. Matter of fact, even your bowel patterns and urination patterns change when you travel. There are lots of people who tell you who they go to the bathroom regularly once a day, and then they go and travel, and all they did was go from California to New York or from New York to Chicago, and they'll tell you that they don't go to the bathroom for 2 to 3 days.

Yeah, the constipation.

Yeah. And again, it's because your circadian rhythm has changed.

Yeah, exactly.

Everything is tied to that circadian rhythm.

I read somewhere that there is literally for 6 hours, it takes at least from 1 to 2 weeks before it's actually adjusted.

It's probably, I'm sure there's truth to that, but there, there, it varies. So I would say the seasoned traveler has learned how to counter that quicker. Now for you, it may be easier for you because you've taken the If my body says go to sleep, I'm going to go to sleep. Yeah, I go to bed. Now it's easier to do that when you're in a retirement phase where you don't necessarily have a whole lot planned for the next day that if you might have said, gee, I'm going to go do this, but now you don't feel like getting up, you just rest. But if you're going to a meeting and you're having to make a presentation you have to be ready to make the presentation. So you have to make some adjustments.

Yeah. Yeah.

I read this one article is about this. It was the coach of the British cycling team. And so what he had this thing about continuous improvement. And so in order to help have the athletes sleep better, he encouraged them to bring their own pillows and blankets from home. Because they said they'd be more comfortable and they'd improve the quality of their sleep.

That makes sense. It just makes sense. Anything that can breed familiarity for you is going to benefit you.

That's why you see little kids with their blankets and their pillows that they get attached to. Maybe that's evolution.

Does it bring the teddy bears as well?

Yeah, some of them do. Yeah.

Mine's just out here. Oh, I'm sorry.

Dr. Kenny, from, as a physician, what are the range or most common or craziest problems you've seen people come to you about with regards to this?

A lot of it used to be insomnia. I just can't, I just can't sleep. And so initially they'll try the over-the-counter things, the Tylenol PM, for instance, which is essentially Benadryl, but any things like that, or NyQuil, all of those things, essentially they're Diphenhydramine, they're antihistamines that have sedating properties. So, we'll always try the first thing. For me, it was always, what's your sleep pattern for you? When do you typically go to bed at the same time? Do you typically get up at the same time? Do you exercise regularly? If you're a coffee drinker, Are you a coffee drinker or a tea drinker where there's caffeine in it? When do you drink it? When's the last time you drank it? When do you exercise? If you don't exercise, all of those things. So once I get a sense of where they are, then the next step is first, let's try and get you into a regular routine if you don't have one. I'm going to get up at 6 AM every morning and I'm going to go to bed at 7 PM or 8 PM every night. And so if you, once you, because our bodies are, they're machines. And so they, they get used to repetition. It's no different than when you're doing a new exercise. If you're doing rep, the reason we do repetitions is to create, i.e., muscle memory. You're, that's what you're doing with your brain. And when you do that, all of this helps with your ability to focus, your memory, because part of when you're sleeping is it's helping your brain to store the memories that have happened and put them in the right place in the brain so that a day from now, 2 days from now, you can recall them without trying to say, gee, I know there was something like that had happened before, but I can't recognize it. Yeah.

Okay. Dr. K, when we talk about the one we often hear about is sleep apnea, is that different from just snoring? And when should we see a sleep specialist with any of those problems?

So sleep apnea, snoring is a, can be a part of sleep apnea, right? I've always believed that everybody snores. If you were to sit and watch people, and actually we'll talk about the anecdote I have about sleeping in the middle of the day. But one of the interesting things is that it becomes sleep apnea when it, for the individual, it's disruptive. So is it disruptive to who lives with them, who sleeps nearby with them, if they're hearing the snoring? Because snoring There's snoring that stops the person multiple times of stopping their breathing because the muscles in the back of the throat relax. And then basically, you snore as a reflective response. The ones who have what we call obstructive sleep apnea, which is the most common form, it's because the individual has had periods where they're having trouble getting through days. They feel like they got to— they're always tired no matter— they'll tell you that I slept for 8 hours last night, but I'm still tired. I'm still tired. Or that they were drinking 1 cup of coffee and now they're drinking 4 or 5 cups of coffee and then a little bit of chocolate. Or they say, gee, I need to rest tonight, so I'll take a quick drink before I go to bed, which is also a no-no because it all basically interferes with one's ability to build respiratory capacity. And the way you evaluate this, basically two ways. The old ways is the— and they still do it— is to go into a sleep lab. When you see the sleep specialist and they put all these electrodes and everything on you and you go to sleep and it registers all that information. Or now they have home sleep studies.

Okay.

And actually that became, to me, was a godsend because you could, you automatically just write the prescription, put it in, and then the sleep company sends it directly to the patient with the instructions. On how to attach it and everything. You wear it for 2, 3 nights in a row. It's recording how long you sleep, how many times you stop breathing, how many times you breathe really rapidly after your body realizes you've stopped breathing, how restful was your sleep. And then it will determine whether you're someone who the CPAP machine, which is this sort of gold standard, that you give the person to help them to sleep. There are other people where they'll give them— the dentist can put in a mouth guard that you can wear that basically what it does is it prevents you from clamping down so that this airway stays open. So those— it works for some. Okay. But, and you know, now the importance of treating sleep apnea is because of the concomitant health conditions that it aggravates or makes worse. Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, blood pressure, all of them are affected by it. Significant others move you to the couch or to another room if they— because it's disturbing. And the only times that people don't wake up is in the deep sleep or the REM sleep. Because it's so deep they can— you could be singing a song and nobody will hear you.

Is the primary cause of apnea— is the primary cause of apnea, is it related to weight or alcohol, or just as people have more of a disposition?

Weight contributes to it for sure. The heavier you are, if you think about it, the heavier you are— and I always say that we are Whenever we've gained weight, we proportionately gain weight everywhere. So if you've gained weight around your hips and your belly, you've also gained weight in your throat. So now, and this is a very small area where air is supposed to come in. And remember, the other side of it is, and this is why sleep apnea is a problem, is that normally when we breathe in through our nose, which by default warms the air oxygen coming in, which then also opens up the tubing below it to allow it to go in. When we breathe through our mouth, it's not warmed, it's cool, and it makes things close down. So it makes the area that's small smaller, and that's what's happening with snoring.

So a couple years ago, Kettle and I interviewed James Nestor, who wrote this book called Breath or Breathe, and he was a proponent of we should all be breathing strictly through our nose. And then there, the idea of a tape over your mouth while you sleep. And I don't know what you think of either of those things.

I don't know. It seems, could it work? First of all, I'll put it this way. Think of it when people have the CPAP machines. So there's basically 2 or 3 types. There's the CPAP machine that looks like an oxygen mask that's over your nose as well as your mouth and everything like that. And it's noisy because it's pushing air through. It's constantly pushing air through. So for a lot of people, it's oppressive. So what ends up happening, they start out sleeping with it and a half an hour into sleep, it's off. So to do this where you literally zip the mouth closed, it's just not instinctive. It's possible, but I think it would have to be a learned behavior. You'd have to train people to do that.

I've been sleeping with the thing that pushes my, I think it's the lower part forward.

The palate. Yeah.

The palate.

Yeah.

And in the beginning that was awful to put on, but now I'm completely used to it. So that's not a problem. I've also tried to tape them off. It worked, but I think the idea that we should try to breathe more through the nose is probably a good thing.

Yeah.

You also look smarter and healthier when you do that.

And you, yeah, you do.

Yeah, yeah, you look at especially old people, they have the mouth open, they breathe a lot with the mouth.

Yes.

If you're actually very conscious about how you look like, and I am, you basically try to look to breathe through the nose.

And technically you're getting less air because if you're breathing through the mouth, the air is cool. It's, and by default, the air, everything down here constricts because it doesn't like the cool air. So technically you're getting air in, you're just getting less than you would normally do.

Of course, if you do a lot of physical activity, you have to breathe with everything. But another advantage then is also when you actually calm down and you want, you try to take longer breaths and breathe through the nose and all of that seems to work. It's not a, it seems to do intuitively correct. But yeah.

Yeah. Okay, guys, on a sort of lighter note, and it relates to sleep, I think we can all relate to that 2 PM feeling after a lunch. They say the worst time to attend a meeting or give a presentation is that 2 PM time where the postprandial effect takes place. Can you explain a bit about that, Rich, after we've had lunch and then the meeting after that is Yeah.

Yeah.

So rest time.

Yes.

I'll tell the story, the story first that explains. So I used to give talks to the World Bank and IMF people who are soon to retire about going into retirement in a healthy way. And the talk used to always be 12:30 or 1:30 in the afternoon. And so the very first time I did it, I'll never forget it was in the fund, in the fund. I started talking. You have the slides up and I'd say I probably had gotten through 2 slides and you start hearing a snoring over in the left corner. Then you start hearing coughing and snoring over in the right corner. I literally turned the light— I literally had them turn the lights on. Right. And, but what I did is I said to myself, since I got to do these talks, and they're not going to change the times at which they have them, I said, I have to find a way to keep people awake and alert. So what I did is I bought a little boombox in, put on some music, and I made everybody stand up before we start to talk. I told them to go at arm's length. I turn on some music and I tell them, just move. That's all I want you to do is move. And so what was fascinating, the first thing was the fascinating thing is that initially people were reluctant to do it, but then they see people getting up and it's fascinating when you see people from different cultures dancing to the same rhythm of music. And so people are dancing and shaking and everything like that. And we do this for, I do this for about 3 minutes. And then I tell everybody to put their arms up in the air, take a deep breath in through your nose, blow out through your mouth, have a seat. And then I start to talk, and nobody else ever went to sleep. And then I started doing that all the time. But going back to the postprandial, the real issue is that when you eat, that food has to be digested. And so it gets into the stomach, and there are lots of chemical reactions going on. Trying to break down, because it— by the time that food leaves your stomach, it has to be in a liquid form so that it can be absorbed through the blood vessels in the first and second part of the small intestine. So in order to do that, you have to increase blood flow to the intestine. It has to take blood flow from somewhere, so it can't take it from the heart. 'cause that has to continue to function. It can take some from the muscles 'cause you're essentially not doing anything. It'll take a little bit, it can't take it from the lungs 'cause you still gotta breathe in and out to get oxygen and get rid of carbon dioxide. And it'll take a tiny smidgen from the brain. And that's just enough to make people doze off.

Yeah. I actually knew, I went to a presentation. It was a chap who was the strength coach for the Pittsburgh Steelers. So he was quite an imposing looking fellow, young bloke with his cowboy boots and everything on. And he just said at the start of the presentation, it was about 2 o'clock, he said, I know you assholes are all gonna fall asleep in here and I'm gonna challenge each and every one of you. And so he would, if he saw someone fall asleep, he'd say, don't you fall asleep on me. It had the desired effect. It was probably a bit more direct than yours, Dr. Kaye.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

I also can remember, and it's a brief little story, but I think everyone's faced it at some point. We used to have a meeting when Dr. Kaye and I worked for a health services department. Used to happen on a Wednesday about 3 o'clock.

Yes.

And let's just say the presenter wasn't the most exciting. No names, no names, but he wasn't the most exciting. He had a one-level voice. There was no modulation to keep you awake, no agenda for the meeting so that you could tick it off and say, oh, we're nearly finished. So you just sat in there in this one long room and it fitted about 10 people in there. And if you, if people tend to gravitate to their own corners, so I'd found a little one where I could sit behind someone. If I started to doze off, he wouldn't see me. But this day I got in late. I'd taught a boxing class and came in and it was, I got into it late. All the seats were taken, so I had to sit next to him, next to the presenter. But I sat back a little bit so he couldn't actually see me. And I thought to myself, God, I hope I'm not going to fall asleep in here. And I was doing all my skills as a former massage therapist. I was pressing my ears and pressure points on my legs and the neck, and I feel myself falling asleep. And I think, no, I'm okay, I'm okay. No one's noticed. No one's noticed. I did this for about an hour and I thought I got out of this okay. No one noticed a thing until Dr. Kennedy and one of his female colleagues come up to me later and said, Mike, you gotta sit there more often. We were just killing ourselves laughing that you've fallen asleep the whole time.

Yeah.

So I thought I was being Mr. Smart and no one noticed. So I've had it both as a presenter and as a participant, it's Oh yeah, it's devastating. It's devastating. But as a presenter, you've gotta definitely employ some different tactics.

Yeah, you do.

You can go Dr. K's route, the gentler route, or the Pittsburgh Steelers guy. Find a which way, I guess.

Oh yes. Oh yes.

So just, I know we've gotta, Kettle's gotta leave us soon, so let's move along to our next topic here. How does lack of sleep affect things like decision-making? Work performance, even relationships. I guess that thing called mental fog, Dr. Kurtz.

Yeah, it's true. If it happens continuously enough, you're going to find that you're not as focused, you're not as alert. Things that, you know, that you, if you're in a meeting, you're in a meeting with your couple of colleagues and the subject matter that's being talked about yet you have difficulty pulling forward the thoughts that need to come out because you haven't been sleeping well. And when you're not getting enough sleep— and again, this goes back to the body needs to— it needs a certain amount of sleep in order to function. Sleep is, like I said earlier, is that restorative phase for our body, and it helps with memory, it helps with focus, it helps with attention span. It helps when you get proper sleep now, it decreases irritability. It helps you so that you can prevent those periods of fog and things like that. Because a lot of people, and a lot of people start to say, I'm getting older, I can't remember like I used to, and that's the reason why. But many times, It's just because the sleep pattern. And this goes back to when you're under stress. And so going to work for some people can be stressful. Going to school can be stressful. And so how you manage those stressors. And if you're someone who's a more sedentary individual, you don't burn off the energy, you don't create the balance between the, all the stimulating chemicals that the body uses to the relaxing chemicals that the body uses, we get into trouble. But, and this again, the probably the most important thing is getting a routine that works for you so that you can figure out how many hours of sleep. And it, by doing it the same time all the time, your body will automatically start to fall into the pattern. At the end of the day, when it's 8 o'clock and typically you're in bed by 8:30, your body is already preparing itself to go to sleep if you've been doing it regularly. Sure, of course, every now and then you're not going to be able to, but as long as it's not something that's becoming a pattern, it should be okay. A routine, a sleep schedule, even having a diary. Things that help. So there are people who will wake up in the middle of the night. Some people wake up 3:00, 4:00 in the morning and can't go back to sleep. And now that's an interesting time because that is the time that the body is actually increasing the release of cortisol, one of our stimulating chemicals. And so if it's being released and you had not— now, in order for the person to wake up at that time, it may have been that they never really got into the deep sleep or the REM sleep to begin with. And it's why having the room as quiet as possible, not having light in the room, soft music, things like that. Now, if you can't go back to sleep, they say if you're laying in the bed wide awake, for 20 minutes, you need to get up. Because if you stay there, you are actually now starting to teach your body that, okay, when I wake up, I'm going to stay awake. And once your body starts to get into that pattern repeatedly, the next thing you know, the next night you're doing the same thing. And the night after that, you're doing the same thing. So then simple thing, sometimes doing something, they call it doing something dull, but I'd say pick a book that is always— you always felt boring. So for a lot of us, it is reading the books that we were learning our skill set on. So for me, it's reading a medical journal. I know that in 10, 15 minutes, if I'm reading it, I'm going to be dozing off just because that's the way it is. And or put on your music. It's okay to listen to podcasts as long as they're not podcasts that are asking you to stimulate your mind, because your mind should be quieting down. It should be slowing itself down. So you need to find those things— music, meditation, deep breathing. There's this, what is it called? It's the 4-7-8 rule. Yes, the 4-7-8 rule, where you tell the person, you, you hold your breath for 4 seconds, then you breathe out for 7 seconds, and then you breathe in for 8 seconds. And you do that repeatedly. And what you're doing is you're relaxing all— to do that, you're relaxing and contracting all your muscles. Which is also telling your brain, slow down. So there are different ways to affect that. Just now, it does no good to get up and go have some chamomile tea at that point in time. Don't turn the television on to anything. Just don't turn it on because the blue light itself. Don't— stay away from your social media and everything an hour and a half before you go to bed.

Yeah, definitely.

Being in a cool, dark room works. It can indefinitely work.

Yeah. Kettle, you have any questions from an economic standpoint?

There are studies that actually there are quite a lot costs to a lack of sleep in most industrial countries. What is your comment on that, Dr. Kennedy?

That there's a lack of sleep in the industrial world?

More?

Yeah. Yeah. So they're talking about 1 to 2 hours in US on average, and that actually reduces the productivity.

My— in theory, it makes sense. I don't know. I don't know how accurate. I've not, I've not read about it to that degree, but in theory, it makes sense that one could be less productive. So I take it this way. If a person is not getting enough sleep. And the way I would look at it is whatever it is that they're doing for their 8-hour job, if they're not getting enough sleep somewhere during that 8 hours, they're gonna feel like they need to catch up with the sleep that they haven't been getting. And if they're doing that, then they're not being productive. Indirectly, if you have 30% of your workforce who's having that problem, you should not be surprised that the production drops as a consequence. That makes perfect sense to me.

Yeah.

And also when you go to more cultural climates in the less industrialized world, one of the things that you notice that most of those people do is they work, they move throughout the day so that when their day is done, they wind down. And again, it's almost like a routine. They get up really early, go to work, they eat. Then they go to work, have a break for lunch, then finish the afternoon work, and then they come back home, gather with the family, and then go to sleep and start the routine all over again. So from that perspective, their production is consistent because what is it? They have a routine and a schedule that they follow day in and day out. Yeah, so it makes sense. It makes perfect sense.

Okay.

All right. Let's turn to now, guys, giving our listeners something to work with. Let me ask you, Dr. Covey, what are 3 science-backed tips for better sleep? What would you think would be the 3 regular things a person can do to get better sleep?

To get better sleep?

Yeah.

First, have a sleep schedule, a regular sleep-wake schedule. Where that you figure out what time you wake up, what time you go to sleep. In between that, how much exercise I'm going to do and making sure my exercise is over at least an hour and a half to 2 hours before you're scheduled to go to sleep. To make sure you, when you eat and at the end, particularly toward the evening, eat a less heavy meal. Eat a less spicy meal. If you know that going to bed is at 8:00, then by 6:00, you need to have finished eating, particularly if it's a heavier meal and spicy meal. And again, limit your screen time to at least 1 hour before bed. Stop. At least 1 hour before bed, stop looking at your computer, your phone. Your tablet, turn the TV off, make sure the room is dark, it's cooler because we sleep better when it's cooler. There's no question about that. And it's okay. Some people like, some people love to have music playing before they go to sleep. Some people like what we call white noise sounds. Whatever works for you to put you into, and to me, this is more about routine.

Yeah.

And your environment too, I suppose. Yeah.

Your routine and your environment for sure.

All right guys, before we wrap, let's each share one actionable takeaway for our listeners. Dr. K, what would yours be for better sleep?

Again, respect your routine. Your body thrives on the rhythm. Just do that and you're leap years ahead.

Okay.

Kettle?

Yeah. So a little bit different. Go with the flow.

Listen to your body.

You need to sleep, sleep. If you need to eat, okay.

All right. And Dave?

I think I'd like to learn from Dr. Kennedy. I think I want to live like Kettle says, but I know I need to really live like what Dr. Kennedy says because I think I can get away with just doing whatever I want and I can't and I don't have a routine. And I'm all over the place and I have to take naps whenever I can find the time. So I think I need to, I aspire to be kettle, but I know I need to live like Dr. Kennedy.

Okay. Don't live like me, Dave. That's one thing I'll tell you. I just wrap up by saying it's, you can't be perfect. We all have got different things in our lives that makes us not follow a routine from some time, but we try to be as consistent as we can, just like we do with our workouts, same with our sleep routine. And If I could, and Dr. K, you might help me with this one, some further reading or reputable sites to look at about sleep studies. I believe Hopkins Medicine is one.

Yeah. hopkinsmedicine.org, themayoclinic.org, webmd.com.

Okay. And you said Cleveland Clinic, was that another one?

Clevelandclinic.org.

Okay, great. All right. Okay. Or give Kettle a call. He'll be able to help you.

Sleep. Bye-bye.

Okay. All right. Okay. On that note, folks, that's it for today's episode of Wellness Musketeers. We hope you are walking away with a few tools to start sleeping smarter and living better. Sign up for our newsletter at www.auzziemikejames.com for bonus content and tips. If you enjoyed this episode, do us a solid, hit follow or subscribe. Leave us a great review, share this with a friend who needs more sleep, stacking the Z's as they say, and drop us a comment. We'd love to know your go-to sleep tip or question.

Folks, thanks for tuning in. Now go get some rest, you have earned it.

Sleep well, and until next time, stay informed, stay rested, and stay well.