The $10 Bet That Ended in the ER

I had a guy who was 350 pounds who was at a party maybe 4 blocks from the hospital. They obviously had been drinking. The guy challenged him to jump out of the window from the 3-story building and over the wrought iron fence onto the curb. And he bet him $10 that he could do this. So the guy jumped. He's 350 pounds. His legs got over that wrought iron fence. His body didn't.

Okay.

His body landed and went right through the wrought iron fence. So they had to cut the wrought iron fence to bring him in. 'Cause it was still in his body.

In a pile?

You think piled up?

He's a big dude. He wasn't feeling anything. He was like, I'm ready to go. Let me go. But he was drunk as a skunk.

Hello and welcome to Wellness Musketeers. I'm Aussie Mike James. Today we're diving into one of the most debated topics in health and wellness, alcohol. Alcohol is a substance that's deeply embedded in our cultures, celebrated for its social benefits, but also associated with significant risks, both health and societal costs. Joining me are my co-hosts, our medical expert, Dr. Richard Kennedy, our economist, Kettle Heiding, and David Litt, a personal trainer and wellness professional. Together, we'll explore alcohol's health impacts, societal implications, economic costs, and its role in fitness and wellness. To get the ball rolling, guys, I guess we can say there's a bit of background there. Alcohol touches every aspect of life, from health to economics to personal wellness. Let's start by discussing why this topic's important for each of us. And let's get you on the ball here, Dr. K. What are the most important considerations about alcohol that everybody needs to understand?

Probably the most important point is that alcohol in moderation is okay. And in the United States, defining alcohol in moderation is for women, one drink per day, no more than 7 drinks in a week is okay. For men, 2 drinks per day and no more than 14 in a 7-day period is what we would consider moderate intake. Now, the problem with alcohol consumption and its relationship to health risk, because you hear about how certain amounts of alcohol have been known to decrease the risk of cardiovascular disease. And we talk about that with respect to wine in particular, because spirits and beer doesn't necessarily improve the risk or reduce risk. Now, you can pretty much take almost any cancer that you want to talk about, but particularly breast, head and neck cancer, liver cancer, pancreatic cancer. All of those have been associated with increased risk of cancer when you increase your alcohol consumption. So probably the most important thing is moderation is the key. Now, that being said, most of the studies in the United States have all been observation. So these are not studies that have been retrospective, placebo-controlled. So these are more observations that you Take a person who has a particular disease, and in the questioning of their health, you ask about alcohol intake, and then you get a connection between large numbers of people who do excessive consumption and have an association with these certain conditions. So that's why we look at it. And again, it's when people do things in excess, and pretty much with almost anything. Gets—

can—

has the trouble to get us into trouble. And so alcohol in moderation is the key. Now, what's considered an adequate drink? So for beer in the United States, 12 fluid ounces is considered a normal glass of beer, or 355 milliliters. Wine, 5 fluid ounces.

That's 5 fluid ounces?

Demonstrated by our colleague Kendall, seem to be 4 fluid ounces or 148 milliliters. Distilled spirits that at least 80 proof of whiskey, Scotch, Brandy, things like that, bourbon, 1.5 fluid ounces or 44 milliliters is what is considered a standard, typical drink. Now, one of the other caveats that I always say, that a person who drinks alcohol on an empty stomach has a greater chance of having more of the untoward effects of the alcohol versus the person who drinks with a meal or with food. Because again, alcohol is broken down in the liver. And there's a chemical, and the reason women can take less, need to take less drinks, is because they have, one, they're smaller frame and thereby most of the time have a smaller muscle mass, but they also have less of the enzyme that is responsible for breaking down alcohol in the body called lactic dehydrogenase or DHDH.

Okay. That's good. Let's get into later on, Dr. K, we'll talk about the specific impact alcohol has on major organs, but Let's turn to Kev right now. Major organs of the body I'm talking about there. Let's turn to Kev. From an economic perspective, Kev, what are the biggest challenges alcohol poses to society?

So it's true. I mean, there are quite a lot of estimates about the cost to society and they are quite high. I think I've seen some estimates about 2.5% of GDP. It probably doesn't mean a lot to most people. It's the cost to society, mostly the fact that actually people drink too much and they drink and they drive, for instance. So all of that is important cost. There's also important cost in actually when people drink so much that they need, that they cannot work and they need to be rehabilitated and things like that. So that's the economic aspect or economic societal aspect. All societies, as we know the societies we live in, Alcohol is a part of these societies. We cannot, as we, I cannot remember the prohibition. I don't think anyone here can. There was an attempt of trying to get rid of it, uh, because it's a reaction of completely, it was getting out of control. But every society is in, in some way or another that we know are trying to struggle with imposing some moderate behavior when it comes to alcohol. And I think that, that, that's something we can discuss as well and has to do with it can be quite addictive. I mean, so if one drink easily leads to a second drink, okay. And a third drink, uh, it doesn't have a very clear kind of, oh, this is enough. Like when you eat food, at least normal food.

Okay. Now in terms of alcohol in conversations about fitness and personal wellness. I guess one of the key factors here is alcohol's quite calorific. A 12-ounce bottle of Heineken, because it's one of my favorite, it buys, is 140 calories per bottle. You take 5 or 6 of those a night, that's a significant calorie consumption. And of course, allied with that, if you're out and about, you know, it's just a bar or something, you'll tend to munch along with something with that, something salty or fries or whatever else, a bar food or so forth. So again, it becomes the allied calories add up there. So I guess in terms of the fitness space, again, it's about moderation, as Dr. Kennedy says, but it's also very important to keep in context because if you're pursuing a fitness program, if you are excessively drinking alcohol, your motor activities, your fine motor skills are definitely going to decrease because your reaction times won't be the same and of course, and you're more likely, I would say, if you're recovering from a hangover or whatever, to incur an injury and something like that. So moderation is the key. And I would say, I've got nothing scientifically to back this up, but I'd say if you're really looking for that six-pack look that everyone is enamored with these days, I think drinking regular alcohol and beer in particular is not going to be a factor that helps with that. In fact, I would say it's Damn near impossible. Yeah.

I have a comment and partly a question. 'Cause you, you mentioned it has a lot of calories, but it's also, um, it has a lot of sugar.

Yes.

Yes.

The one thing is actually it affects your calories, but also it can lead to spike in your blood sugar. No, that has other impacts. And also that in fact impacts probably the metabolism as well as how you actually process Yeah. Food. And to add to that, that was mentioned here that if you eat, that's what the positive things from France here, at least it's mostly combined with food. Even when you have an aperitif, we drink before the meal, you always have something with it to, to, to, and that you, you also feel that you don't get as quickly drunk.

It's, yeah, it's important.

Also, it's probably better for your body.

Yeah.

But. I would suggest if you're looking to get into a physique contest, certainly beer drinking wouldn't be pursued, be looking at on a regular basis. But other than that, again, it is about moderation.

I'm certainly working on my six-pack, so that, that glasses of wine is not helpful.

The one you drink or the one you wear?

I don't know. It's, yeah, yeah, that's that probably.

Kettle, one wouldn't think that you would go into one of your fencing competitions —don't drink before hand. Your target might end up being a whole lot bigger than it really is.

One thing that's common is people, like, they're a little nervous about something they're going to do, right? They're going on stage, they're going to do something, they'll do a shot. I want to know if that's how we use alcohol for those things, or—

I guess that's an individual thing, I'd say, Dr. K, right?

I'd say so. Think of it this way. A lot of people, particularly the first few times that you drink alcohol for the first time, one of the things it does is it gives you initially this sort of euphoric sort of state of mind or this very relaxed state of mind. So people's inhibition tends to be lessened. So that's why it's not surprising that there are sometimes there are people, although they should never do this, if they're going to give a talk or a presentation, might actually take a shot beforehand. Because they found in the past they're more relaxed and therefore they can focus and get into whatever it is that they're doing. That's not a good thing, but it's like anything else. Alcohol has initially a high, but then if you continue to drink, it also can give you a depressive effect as well.

What is it about alcohol that causes people to drop their in— to become violent, like bar fights and spouse abuse and things like that. What is it about alcohol that makes people more violent?

I don't know if it's that it necessarily makes people more violent, but you reduce their inhibitions. So if you think of it, take a person who happens to be— two people happen to be in a bar and having a disagreement over whatever. While they're in the bar, they may disagree and be also because they're or other more reasonable heads in the room will basically intervene and push people away or take them away, et cetera. But if you're inhibition, if you're inhibited, not inhibited, I should say, and someone is challenging you, all of a sudden you, you get this hero thing. I can do anything. You get this invincible mindset. And so throwing a punch at that time or shoving somebody at times you don't think twice about it because you're inhibited. You can take the other avenue. You're in a bar or a club and you've had one or two drinks and there's this young lady across the room that you've been noticing all evening. Initially, because you're, you know, you're afraid of being rejected, you don't say anything, but then after you've had a couple of drinks, you're not really concerned about that and you'll walk up to that person, introduce yourself. You might even say, "Can I buy you a drink?" "Boy, I've been standing here watching you all evening. I just thought that you would really like this drink, so I took the opportunity to bring that over to you." Now, that might not work, but at the same time, it takes away— even if you get rejected, you don't go into a depressive state because you don't care. Because it's like, "Ah, I tried, it didn't work," and you move on to the next I'm learning something every day with Dr.

Kennedy.

As an emergency room physician, do you have any stories from people that you came across in the ER? Plenty.

Plenty of people. The problem is, you have to remember, many times when in the emergency room, you're seeing people who are over— they're intoxicated. So they're belligerent. If their natural behavior is to be aggressive, they're more aggressive. If their natural behavior is to be timid, they actually can be more withdrawn.

I agree, Dr. Chuck. I agree.

It's very, very, you see this, you'll see this all the time. Or you'll see people who would like to, they've always had the thought, boy, if I could just run across the street and jump over that car, I could do it. Whereas common sense says, I haven't run in 6 years. If I go and run and try to jump on it, I'm probably gonna miss it and get hit by it. But if you're— and best example, I had a guy who was 350 pounds who was at a party, maybe 4 blocks from the hospital. And this guy challenged him to— they obviously been drinking. The guy challenged him to jump out of the window from— and this is, think of it, it's a brownstone, so it's a 3-story building and it challenged him to jump from the second floor to jump over the wrought iron fence onto the curb. And he bet him $10 that he could do this. So this is 1987 or so. And the guy, he jumped. He did. Now remember I told you he's 350 pounds. His legs got over that wrought iron fence. His body didn't change. His body— his body landed and went right through the wrought iron fence. So they had to cut the wrought iron fence to bring him in because it was still in his body. He's a big dude. He wasn't feeling anything. He was like, I'm ready to go, let me go. But he was drunk as a skunk. Why?

You know, I tend to agree, Dr. Cahill. It was strictly, we, it was very much a pop culture and I always believed that aggression, it was usually people who had that sort of trait inborn into them, I think, who were aggressive by nature, even without alcohol, largely, very few exceptions to that, I thought, in my experience. Turning to some of the actual health benefits and risks, Dr. Cahill, could you explain alcohol's impact on major organs like the brain, the liver. We often hear about how alcohol affects the liver, the heart, and the immune system. Yes.

So alcohol, you know, there have been some studies that have found that moderate drinkers, again, these are the, in men, 2 drinks a day, women, 1 a day. And again, we're also talking about in the United States, everyone over the age of 21. Technically, if you're under 21, you're not supposed to be doing this at all. Okay? And so research has found that it lowers mortality. The moderate drinkers lowers the mortality rates compared to people who have abstained from drinking versus those who are heavy drinkers. Now, because there have been no studies to counter that, we don't know how accurate that really is. So it doesn't mean, so if a person reads that, they might say, gee, if I'm an, I don't drink, but I hear that people who drink, men who drink 2 drinks a day, if I start drinking 2 drinks a day, I may decrease my mortality. That's not necessarily true. You don't know that because it's never just about one thing. You have to take into account the person's entire history, their family history, how they function at work, what kind of work they do. There's so many, what their mental health. History is like, all of those things play a role. So research has also found that the risk of diabetes is lower in those who consume alcohol moderately. Now, why— I question that because I don't understand the logic in that. But again, remember, these are observational studies. So that sort of essentially means there's a study that maybe they initially said, we're going to look to see if people who eat a certain way and drink a certain way and compare them to another group of people who are supposedly eating a certain way but drink a little differently, what percentage of them get diabetes versus those who don't. So that's what it's implying. You have to read further to see how accurate that is. But probably the one group health issues that have been shown to be beneficial is that evidence has always suggested that mild to moderate alcohol consumption decreases the risk of coronary heart disease and thereby cardiovascular mortality. So this goes back to when they used to say 2 glasses of wine a day, 1 to 2 glasses of wine a day. Decreases the risk of cardiovascular mortality. And they looked at this, and I think it was the French population, comparing it here to the US, and that their level of heart disease is less than that in the United States. So they made— and again, there are factors, there are other factors that involve— the French diet is very different than the American diet. Forgetting about the types of food, just the quantity that people consume is very different than the quantity that's consumed here in the US. That's like, there's more obesity in the US, there's less in Europe. Well, why is that? We know that you, all you have to do is anytime they show a picture of any of the cities of Europe, people are on bikes. People are walking. People, you know, are— they're always active. You see that. People sitting every day at lunchtime drinking wine. I have plenty of friends who live in France and are from France who drink wine in the morning, in the middle of the day, and at night. It's just part of the culture. And many of those people, because I know them as patients, are healthy despite what we would think might be excessive amounts of alcohol intake. So kettle it, take it into, uh, consideration.

How is it in Norway and Australia versus America as far as alcohol? Kettles from Norway. Yeah.

No, notice Norway, it's much closer to America in a way that it is not something— drinking alcohol is not necessarily part of your— actually, it might be a little different from Australia, but more like America. It's not something of your daily life. But you drink more when there's a party. It's more weekend drinking and it's larger quantities during the weekend. And, uh, it's, uh, you know, whereas for instance in France, you drink with meals and it's more often. And also the attitude towards drunkenness is very different. So here in France, it's considered really bad form and also somewhat loss of that you actually get drunk is a loss of control. Whereas in Norway it's okay. So that's like in America. And so you, but you're looking for a whole different thing when you drink. And in France it's more about a bit with a meal or maybe in a social setting, a glass or two, and you stop with that. But the total quantity is gonna be more. Just a comment on, on, but maybe Mike wants to talk about Australia. But the comment on the studies is, so of course when it comes to diet and all of these things, and maybe even to some extent things like smoking, it's very hard to do double-blind tests and the kind of— Yes, absolutely. So, but there's always gonna be some problems with these things. But as you said, one thing important is to try to figure out what is the mechanism by which you can actually say the causality goes one way or not the other. So the problem also when you are comparing a population that does so much things different, it's very hard to say that it's because of the alcohol because nearly everyone is drinking one or two glasses. Yeah. Oh yeah.

In Australia, remembering that, no, I left Australia 30 years ago. It may have changed, but certainly the Australia I grew up in was very much a hard drinking sort of culture. You worked hard and you played hard. Even if you played a sport, you went to the bar after it and many beers, and it was just considered part of life, your Fridays and Saturdays and so forth, you know, just considered normal. And I was gonna bring this up later, but I thought maybe now is an opportune moment to bring it up. When we talk about the moderation, I guess when you're in a culture similar to that and when you're in that sort of atmosphere, and we like to live in a real world, people are people, that to, you know, what Dr. Akintobi was referring to, the one standard drink, et cetera, that sort of goes out the window. I can't remember anyone counting drinks unless you were driving. You didn't drink and drive when we were in a social situation in Australia. So moderation, when it did become a problem, I was very fortunate. I was pointed to in, in my physical education degree, I was pointed to a, a graph or a reference called the Jelinek curve. And it's, it was devised by Dr. Morton Jelinek and created and developed the Jelinek curve. Back in the '50s, and it was later revived by a British psychiatrist, Matt Gallat. And it's a pictorial chart that represents the typical phases of becoming addicted to alcohol. Yeah. But what this does is it outlines specific behaviors when, where you are going beyond moderation, and it talks to actual specific behaviors like memory blackouts, urgency of your first drinks, and progresses along there. To where you actually need addiction treatment. And I always found it both then growing up and now when I, when any, in a wellness field and as a wellness coach, if anyone comes up and asks me, they maybe think they have a drinking problem, I refer them to this chart and it makes them think about it a bit more. It points to specific behaviors. The one or two glasses, I understand where there have to be guidelines, but again, in a social situation, they go out the door. They don't get listened to. So this sort of chart really puts you in a position and makes you see where you stand in terms of maybe you're not too moderate, maybe you do need specialist help. And that's when you would go to an addiction specialist. But it's very interesting. I'd really point to where the listeners are looking at. It's called the Addiction and Recovery, the Jelnicke Curve.

And we'll put that in the episode notes and put a link to it. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, in Australia, it was even for sports teams, it was very much a hard drinking sort of culture. I think it still is, although I would suggest more the young, younger people are a bit more refined than we were, and they're probably more into the wines and things now. And I think drink driving rules are very strict now. And so that may restrict it somewhat now, but certainly growing up, it was very much a pub culture.

Does alcohol affect people or mean different things to a person's body at different ages? I don't like in our country or the United States, you're not supposed to be the drinking age for alcohol, for liquor is 21. Is there any like health reason for that? And do different countries look at age of drinking differently than we do? And if you're an older person or 20-year-old, does it make— does your body deal with it differently? A man or a woman?

With 18 in Australia, I can tell you that much. And I can certainly tell you, we're not— Dr. Kennedy's got more of a science, but I can certainly tell you definitely your tolerance decreases as you get old. And like a lot of things, but I'll let Dr. Kennedy speak to the medical matters of it. Yeah.

I think that people are, first of all, I think that 21, you're becoming an adult in this country. Much, 21 is that age that allows you to do a lot of things that you weren't able to do before. And they think that's at that level where you're becoming more mature and more responsible. As to why they do 21. Because yeah, I don't think Australia is the only country in the world that uses 18 as the cutoff. There are other countries that 18.

England, I believe. In France, if I'm in high school, can I have a drink in the cafeteria? It's 18.

18, yeah. But it's not, the bar will not serve you and they're gonna get into trouble. But I would say in practice, in the restaurants, if you're with the family, they will, they'll very relaxed about it. So the 18 is not really portraying the reality. You will find younger people drinking and it's not considered to be a problem.

Is there any, is there any—

And I would think that again, here in the States, one of the reasons that what makes a lot of sense is that a lot of the motor vehicle accidents in the younger people have been, there was an association with alcohol and/or drugs. And so they tried to get a handle on it by using 21, because we know that every college campus, although they're supposed to be alcohol-free, you know, that there, there are literally pubs just off the campus grounds most of the time. So it's not that it's not available and people find ways to get things because all you need is one person who's 21. To walk into the supermarket or the grocery store to pick up a six-pack beer. Yeah.

I often wonder though, it's the way we look at it from a society's viewpoint. When I was in Germany, the way I saw the Germans were, they were very liberal with their drinking laws. And I saw people going before work into the train station, going for a beer before work, drinking. A man in a business suit, he'd just been at work all day. He was standing on the train platform with a can of beer. Now here, or even in Australia, you would look at that with a glance and you would say, oh God, that guy's got a bit of a problem. But there it really was considered just a drink and it was no big deal. So I guess it's the attitude to it. Here in America with the college groups and everything, it's pound 'em down, let's get drunk and so forth. But I don't think it's German and some cultures have a much more sensible attitude to it. It's interesting.

Like I know, like when I was in college, I knew some people, I'm sure you met people like they, their parents were very strict. They lived in a home, maybe it was a religious home or whatever, that they could not drink. It was like you were committing murder if you had a shot, if you had a glass of beer. And then when they went to college, they went berserk, were overcompensated for being in that strict environment. And I think if you're in a place where it's like less forbidding, it's, you don't, maybe there's some restraints that are natural because it's not something that's forbidden.

It's like when we were at high school, the Christian Brothers Catholic School, you had to have short back and sides. What did everyone do once they left school? They grew hair down to their shoulders. They'd become surfers and hippies. Looked awful, but we were rebelling. We were going to let it grow. It's pretty much the same thing, I think. But turning a little bit to the economic side of things, Kevill, what is the economic burden of alcohol-related diseases on healthcare systems? Can taxation or regulation help mitigate those type of costs?

Yeah, it's, as I mentioned before, the biggest thing has to do with what happens when you are drunk or you've been drinking too much. It's— I mean, there's always those are some health effects of drinking too much and people have illnesses, but it's the amount of drinking. And it's the, as I said, it's about drinking so much that you cannot perform your job, drinking and having accidents. And because of that, it's both in human toll as well as economic. And that is the biggest cost, I think, definitely more than the kind of the overall health. And there's also the overall health because people drink generally, many drink more like 4 or 5 glasses of wine or the equivalent in other alcohol. And of course it's gonna reduce their health. It's very difficult to measure, but as I said, some attempts have come up with about 2.5% of GDP. Different countries are dealing with it different ways, but I would say it seems quite similar in much cost in different societies.

What should we understand, like, 2.5% of GDP means in dollars?

Yeah, you have to look at the GDP of United States.

Then could you say that means in the billions or I would have to be, wouldn't it?

I would think. So US GDP is 27, about 30 trillion US dollars. So 2.5% of that is, trillion is thousands of millions.

It's not insignificant.

No, it's not significant at all, no.

And I know that we've all met somebody in our lives who's had a struggle with drinking. And I think The one thing it seems to me to be a problem about, if you have someone who has a weight problem or most of your social engagements involve either food, alcohol, or both, and it's, you're on the one hand, you're, it's part of what you're doing. On the other hand, you're, you need to have restraint because of someone who's kind of difficult. How do you deal with those kinds of things?

That's where it, I think, becomes very difficult. I know in populations, and again, this might be the sphere of the addiction specialists, but like our colleague who wrote the book Atomic Habits, who's saying to get rid of bad habits, you've gotta look at the environment you're in. And it was always very difficult if we did have friends who were suffering alcohol problems, it was very hard for them to socialize with us because there was always alcohol involved. And generally speaking, in my experience, the successful ones removed themselves from that group and really went into a different sort of social sphere. Difficult. It's very difficult if your peer group or the group you associate with, sporting club, alcohol's always involved. So yeah, it becomes a difficulty. And that, that is a real cost on society, I think. And it makes it extremely tough for individuals. I've always had a lot of admiration for people who do manage to do that because that's quite a task. You've got to change your life around. And I've seen a few people do that, but nothing but admiration for them.

And you should admire it because I think it's like any addictive drug. The most difficult thing is for the person addicted to it to acknowledge that they are addicted to it. Yeah.

Yeah.

And because that's the first step in the process of healing is to acknowledge that it's a problem. And alcohol's different in that it will, because it generates what we call empty calories. Like you said, for a Heineken, 40 calories. And if you drink 3 of them, you're almost at 400 calories. Yeah. And so if a person does that and it fools— the interesting thing, alcohol fools the body, particularly the liver, to thinking it's getting nutrition. So what it then does is stop the individual from eating. They don't feel hungry because they fulfill fill the liver's caloric need. And so basic— and so that's why they tend to have much more problems with their liver. They tend to have much more problems with their pancreas. They tend to have more problems with their gallbladder. And thereby, when you do that, because there are several enzymes that we all need to function and to help with nutrition and digestion, you don't use because they either get destroyed because the liver is overworking, because it realizes after it thought it got calories that it didn't. So it's craving more. It releases what it has, and then you start to have less and less available. Well, that's where the chronic liver disease comes from. That's where the chronic— acute and chronic pancreatic disease comes from, et cetera. It's why people have gout. Who drink a lot tend to have greater, more frequent flares of their gout. And so, yes.

What leads to cirrhosis of the liver, which is common amongst alcoholics. Okay. Okay. I guess one of the questions posed is also, how does alcohol consumption affect physical performance, recovery, and mental clarity? And what are the safe ways to incorporate it into a fitness routine? I guess if I could look at, looking at that, obviously it's dose dependent. I don't think if you're a in a sporting activity on a weekend, maybe a few drinks earlier in the week is gonna hurt you that much. But I do know at top level, when you're talking about elite sportsmen, whether it be Aussie Rules or soccer players or even NFL players, in the '50s, '60s, '70s, they were quite hard drinkers as well. They worked hard and played hard, but the sport has become so refined now and so fine-tuned and more endurance-based in, especially Australian Rules and the soccer and so forth. They really generally turn off alcohol all year long during the season. It's very rare that you would see them drink alcohol during the season now. So that's at the elite level. What happens, of course, being young guys, they're looking for a high somewhere. They might turn to something else that has less effects on skin folds and weight and so forth. And that could be all sorts of other extraneous types of material, speed and cocaine and so forth. So there's a double-edged sword to that. In alcohol consumption for the average person in a fitness routine, I think again, moderation and allowing yourself time to recover so that you've dissipated it out of your system a little bit. I would say leave 12 to 18 hours before you do your next exercise session, just so that you're not going in there with a belly full of alcohol or possibly being a bit troubled by your fine motor movements. And that's just a general rule of thumb. I have no research to really back that up. Would you agree with that, Dr. K? Yeah.

And I'd also say if you take the amateurs, so take the weekend golfer or the weekend basketball player, you know, that they may, you know, and during a round of golf, people drink beer. They drink alcohol while they play. They smoke cigars. It says, and some of them will tell you they play better. Some of them will tell you they, they play better cuz they relax. Yeah. That they're not as tense. But I always say that at the end of the round, when you look at their scores, if you compare it to the time where they didn't drink at all until after the round was over versus during the round, they don't perform as well. And then you look at the person that now, there are some people who I call it are alcohol dependent. That they drink it so often that it is part of their sustenance. And so when they don't drink it, and this is what we see in the emergency room, is the alcohol withdrawal. Right. Or the delirium tremens where they're coming confused and disoriented. They're tremulous. What is that? Basically because you alter the chemical breakdown in the brain. That's all. You just make it— the things that are supposed to be working aren't working as well. And again, when you create false calorie, you actually cause increased fat deposits. And fat deposits in the brain, if you do it enough, you basically decrease some of the normal functioning neurons because they're being compressed. They're not allowed to function. So there's always this, and it's a very fine line. There are, in practice, you know, there, when you ask the question, do you drink alcohol? And then you ask people, how much do you drink a day? How much do you drink? If you go to any doctor's office for the first time, they have you fill out a questionnaire. They ask you, do you smoke? If so, how much do you smoke a day? How much do you smoke in a week? Do you drink alcohol? How much do you smoke in a day? How much do you smoke in a week? And we always say that people who've been longtime smokers, if they tell you they smoke 1 pack a day, you know they drink, they smoke 2 to 3. If they tell you that they have 1 to 2 drinks a day, they're probably having 4 to 5. Then particularly if they're the person who's asking you to come in and write them a note so that they can take time off from work because they've just had a bad week., and they need some time to recover. There's this very fine line. And again, these are the people who drink, who don't think their drinking is abnormal. And if they don't think it's abnormal, then it can't be a problem. If it's not a problem, then they just continue to do— because they'll tell you, I've been doing this for 25 years, I'm functioning fine. I still work on Wall Street. I still work in the Senate. And they'll tell you that they're fine. And it's the subtleties, it's the subtle things where they're in the middle of talking about something and they lose track of what they're saying, or they start with one sentence and come up with a completely different sentence that had nothing to do with previous.

Do you think that most of us are guilty of it, of lying to ourselves and lying to our doctors?

No.

No.

No. That? Oh. I think that it, to me, it depends on the relationship you have with your doctor. If you have a good relation, working relationship with your doctor, and you feel that your doctor's always got your best interest at heart, because it's interesting, most times people will come in and we'll say, okay, based on your history and the recent lab tests we've done and exams, we need to—

I'm sorry, you dropped off for a second. We may need to repeat that last part. There was something on the glitch in the matrix there.

Oh, I said, if you're meeting with your doctor and they say you need to lose weight, and one of the ways that you can get people to lose weight is to cut back on their alcohol. So as they say, when we talk about beer, people have beer bellies. As they say, you can be walking through an airport terminal and you can tell many of the people who have a love affiliation with beer just by the way their bellies look. And the way they move and the way they talk. This is more of just having experience. So I don't think people intentionally, and again, I think it depends on the person. Some people are really con— when they're concerned about something, they're more apt to tell you something because they want help. Then there are other people who, I didn't really come here to talk about that. I came here to talk about this. And that's all I really wanna talk about. So they'll, they wanna, they want it to go away because they don't wanna discuss it right then and there.

Let me throw another, a more positive vibe here. I don't think we're being negative. I think we're being exactly right. It's true. But I would say that I've drank beer most of my life and I've gotta say it's brought me some of the best times in my life. Met some of the best people. Been a great social lubricant. It's been wonderful for me in business. I can tell you that lots of times. It's been discussing things that are hard to discuss. You can discuss them over a few beers. Overall, I would say it's been a very positive effect. Meeting with my friends and family over a few drinks, it's one of the joys of life. So again, it's moderation, but there's also, I think, a positive aspect that can't be overlooked. But again, it's like anything, you can overdo anything if it's good. That's just a point that I'd like to make.

I have a question. Is it, so the, you talked about relaxing and you said in quotation marks, but does it, is there a muscle relaxing element of alcohol or is it just in your head?

I don't know. I feel relaxed, but I'm not sure that Dr. Kennedy has to.

I'm not sure, but I know that it is definitely from the mental standpoint, there is a relaxed sensation, no question about it. And by default, for instance, if you are about to do something that requires a lot of strength and tension, you tend to initially tense up in preparation for it, and then you do it. Alcohol does relax you, but the problem is the amount of alcohol that I might need to take to get relaxed. May be different than Mike, that may be different than Dave, or may be different than you. That there's— and certain drinks. So for instance, I could drink a glass of wine and then have another glass of wine and I'm done for the evening. But I could drink 44 milliliters of a scotch, of a good quality scotch, and I'll be good all night. So it's very different. And I think that says a lot about each of us being a little bit different.

Another question, so is the interaction with things like depression? You mentioned earlier that there was a depressant.

Yeah, that the long, the more they drink it, the longer, the more they drink it, the more likely that later on, you know, they'll have a depressed mood. Or be sad or more quiet. It's why they tend to fall off to sleep. It's why you don't want people to drink and drive because in the midst of their driving, they're not as alert. They're not as, they're not as focused on what's ahead of them. They're actually too relaxed, too calm.

Yeah, I think that's a good point, Kevlin, you bring that up because again, I'm talking from personal experience. If there was a problem I faced or if there was a stress, alcohol wasn't the answer. I never used it as a, I never thought to use it as a way to get relief or something like that. You've got to tackle the problem. I always saw it as a social lubricant for celebration, not for commiseration or depression. And I think there's a very real element when you see people drink too much in a depressive state, it's not good. And I'm not a psychologist, but that's a very good point. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we're nearing to wrap up, but Kevin, maybe you could comment, is there any lessons we can learn from countries with stricter or more, with stricter regulations on alcohol or even the more lenient? Is there anything economically that makes them stand out or be different when they have those regulations?

I think it's a very difficult question because it's so linked into the culture. All the Nordic countries having a very strict regime. But I think, I think unless you want to go the whole way out, you're going to have to struggle and have some leniency when it comes to alcohol. And I think overall, even though living in France, I must say that cultural attitude towards alcohol helps in, in, in, it promotes moderation and actually alcohol consumption is falling in France. Okay. Whereas in the Nordic countries, it's not. And it's a healthier approach. Although, of course, it has costs here too. The large amount of drinking it all day, it's not good, but that's not really the case anymore. So I think that's a good thing. So I think there's a lot to learn from that, but it's a part of a whole, after all, it's considered as food and it's a approach to food in general. I think that's another way of looking at it as well. It's like saying that, you know, everything you take in the body's gonna have an effect on you. And it's a part of a harmonious relationship to your food. And that's also one of the things that's very different here. You eat at certain times, you drink at certain times, you do things during a certain rhythm. Yeah.

Okay. That's kind of, as we, I think we're winding down, but If you were going to talk to a teenage boy or teenage girl right now, and you were going to advise them about how they should think about alcohol and how they're going to consider it in their life, what would you tell them? Or what should we understand?

I'd actually, I'd actually say I would tell them what we know about drinking in moderation, that they should. And at the age that they're at now, that alcohol, there's no advantage to them using alcohol at this time in their life. As they get older, that may be for celebration, things of that nature. But I would also encourage them, you grew up in a household where you may, either there was no alcohol or there was some alcohol, and I think it's important to take into account what your family believes is normal, assuming all things were pretty normal to begin with, you want them to follow the guidance because the people who clearly said there will be no drinking, no alcohol, no anything like this, some of those children cannot wait to do it. It's no different than them saying, "Nobody's gonna smoke in this house," and every opportunity they get, they try to find a way to do it because If you, particularly because we live where alcohol is advertised, just like they advertise detergent, just like they advertise deodorant and hair wash, clothing. So it's part of the culture. It's part of life. So you want people to understand it. And also people won't know how alcohol affects them until they try it. And so moderation is always the key, but you always tell people, and I agree with Mike, is that it is like a social interaction that creates good vibes, good things. Lots of, as they say, probably many business deals all over the planet have taken place with a glass in each person's hand. Whether they drink anything of it or not. But just the fact, because it's a, it is a way to relate to one another. You may get to the point where you talk about, gee, I like this particular drink, try this, things like that. So there are many different ways in doing it rather than forbidding that it's there. And I think you have to deal with you really have to respect your own culture, what works for you, because you may grow up in a culture where you're quite comfortable. Like for Muslims don't drink, the entire Arab world, they don't drink and, and they function perfectly fine. They do every, but they have the same diseases that everybody else has. They have the same, they just have less percentages of, but they still have them. It's, they probably, and they probably have motor vehicle accidents just like we have motor vehicle accidents. They just don't have alcohol as their drug.

In these countries, they drink a lot of soft drinks now that's been marketed a lot and that functions a little bit the same way, but that has a lot of sugar as well. Okay.

Okay, guys, we've covered a lot of ground today. And as we wrap up the discussion, let's share one actionable takeaway for listeners about making informed decisions regarding alcohol. Dr. K, let's start off with you.

If you're not drinking, you shouldn't start drinking just to be one of the crowd. You should think about it and everything in moderation. If they— the goal here is for women, one, for men, two. And I would tell you, if you're starting out, one probably is more than enough for you to sense and see, because you're— because there's going to be a feeling or reaction to it. Now, some people may have none. You're gonna have a few people, but that doesn't mean I'm supposed to drink until I feel something, because normally it's going to go on down the wrong ladder, as they say. And again, be responsible. Be responsible. Carol?

Yeah, I would very much agree with Dr. Kennedy. I would, when it comes to alcohol, really focus on mostly to drink it with food. Yes, of course. I think might be some exceptions, but make sure that you have a good feeling about how the body reacts to it. And as well, also that goes on a little bit, the speed of consumption as well. It's why don't you stop, take stock a little bit about what's happening in your body. The first glass of wine often is the one that tips you over and then you start having a few others.

I've had the opportunity once to talk to Tony Robbins. And the conversation was about food, but I think that his response goes to food and alcohol as well. He said, food is the friend that can't say no. And I think that alcohol is much the same way. If it's there and you want it, it's not going to say no to you. You have to say no to it. You choose your friends wisely. It's how you should live your life. Yeah.

And I'll just finish off with regarding fitness programs and wellness generally, align your drinking habits with your fitness goals and Generally, I would say it's for celebration, not commiseration. It's to meet and be social and enjoy the benefits. And on an educational level, I'm a real fan of that Addiction and Recovery that John had curved. It's just a good reference point for family, friends, yourself, if you think you might be overindulging in alcohol. But on a more positive note, if you want to see, I have to mention this fellow, Dr. K might remember him. There was a famous athlete back in, or boxer. Back in the '40s and '50s named Two-Ton Tony Galento. Yeah. Who owned Two-Ton Tony Galento, who owned a bar in New Jersey and used to box and actually knocked Joe Louis down, nearly won the heavyweight championship. That was a person who is an example of both playing hard and working hard. That's a guy for a good juxtaposition on everything we've been talking about, I guess, on a positive note. And that's a wrap, folks! Today, we've explored alcohol from multiple angles—its effect on health, its societal costs, its economic implications, its role in personal wellness, and in social interaction. If you've enjoyed today's discussion, subscribe to Wellness Musketeers and share this episode with others who might benefit from these insights. Stay informed, stay well, and always consider the bigger picture when it comes to your health journey.