Being Asian in America

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Yo, I think America could use more Asian values right now.

No, say more.

Asian principles, Eastern principles that could help America without sacrificing what it means to be American. You know, a little bit more humility without giving up dominance. Like, I'm not— I don't want to speak on anybody else. I'm just saying Asians are doing what we're supposed to. Yeah, I think, I think Asians are the best Americans. I stand on this.

It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast, somehow for the very first time, influencer, YouTuber, Instagrammer, comedian sometimes, Andrew Fung. Welcome, Andrew.

And hot sauce, uh, chili oil founder now.

Yes.

Thank you.

And chili oil founder. How could I forget given that we have Smala in the office at HQ and we put it on pizza. We've got like, you know, everyone loves this sauce and makes sandwiches a million times better.

So small office going. I'm very excited about that.

Thank you. I mean, I do think of you as something of a food influencer. Is that accurate?

Yeah. I, you know, it's funny is like we kind of started before the word influencer came about. So I actually call myself a creator. That's kind of the elitist term where I'm like, whoa, influencer. No, I'm not just holding up a bag of tea or like trying to push peptides. I'm like a creator. But, but sure, whatever. Like, I don't know.

And they dug deep into the recipe and the origin of Smala sauce, which again, Chinese delicious. If you please, they'll have a link in the show notes. You can check it out. But you and I first met 8 years ago. When I just started running for president. And let me first say that I owe you and your brother a real debt because Andrew Yang was nothing. Andrew Yang was a flyspeck. And no, it's true. And then the Fung Bros were a very, very formidable YouTube channel. And being on your show actually was one of the things that broke the Andrew Yang campaign. So very, very grateful. To you guys. And that's how we first met.

Dude, actually, to add details, you met my brother playing basketball with a mutual friend. That's when you guys informally met.

I do remember that game.

He hit a game winner on you is what I remember.

Yes, I think that's right.

No, but, but when we heard that a mutual friend was running for president, we were like, what? Okay, we got to go see this. And then, yeah, we went to your first event and then we did that video, and I am— I'm honored to have given some type of Asian American validation at that time to you. Yeah, you know, you're a legit guy, and I stand— I always say this, I always tell you this, I say Yang hasn't really changed since then. He stood on business about helping people, getting people money, getting people out of poverty, fighting poverty, and Yang has not tried to become a greedy billionaire through that yet.

Not yet.

Not yet.

Everyone, you know, please do sign up for Noble Mobile and make me a greedy billionaire. That would— nothing would make my wife happier.

But you wouldn't be a greedy billionaire. You would ideally not be a greedy part one.

It's true. I'd be saving people a truck ton of money, which is— but thank you. And being on your show at that time was a huge validator for the Asian American community. For people generally, I never told you this, but for weeks and months afterwards, people would see me and then they would actually say, I know you from the Fung Bros. And it's funny because like I did obviously hundreds of interviews over that period.

Yeah.

And so you kind of get a sense of which ones were the needle movers. You guys were 100% one of the needle movers and you were first.

Thank you so much for saying that. I mean, I— and that's why I think me and David always did take kind of pretty seriously who we put on and who we put the spotlight on. And I think that that is something that we always thought about. It wasn't like, oh, I'm only going to support like politicians or something like that, but like we knew you through another legit friend, a mutual friend, you know? And so there's like that obviously like mutual friend validation where he's like, yo, this guy's— this guy's cool. He's actually like a— he's legit.

He's like, yeah.

And when I hear that from a person that I know is solid, then I'm like, okay, cool. And I think that, you know, we've turned down working with certain people over, you know, and it's not that again, like, we're not kingmakers. We're not these crazy, like, we're not— I'm not like a record exec, you know, where I can just like, yeah, oh, you're going to the top of the charts. Yeah. Like, we're literally super grassroots. But I feel like, and I do take it with some seriousness about like who we put on and who we validate. Because like, if I leave a link to their page in my description and I'm putting them on— and, and by the way, anybody that we do put on, you know, I take seriously. We ask serious questions, we try to get to know them, we take them, uh, we're not just putting people on to be clowns, you know. So I— we take it with some seriousness because I know that it's going to drive attention to their page. So I have to respect what they do and and what their pages or what their content or what their whole ethos is about.

Yeah. You guys are discerning. Uh, that's, that's how I wound up the first now. Um, so, so the, the arc, the journey you've been on, I actually find fascinating because you and I are two of the only people I can have this experience. Check it out. Check it out. You're on the street, you're at lunch, you're in a bodega, whatever. And then someone looks at you and then they make like extra long, eye contact and then just trying to figure out. It's like, so what do you do? So do you get, did we go to school together? Like, do we, do I know you?

Or they get for me, they get the name wrong because there's other people in our space from a long time ago, like Wong Fu, which I will get like Wong Fu Bros. And I'm like, oh, almost. You were 50/50 there. Uh, yeah. Uh, I don't know who you get confused. Do you get a different name? What are some different— I feel like people probably just, just pause and just have to think, but they'll blurt out a name for me. Like they'll just go for it, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I have been mistaken for other Asian bros. Uh, I mean, that has happened. I like, I had a whole conversation with someone where they thought I was Andrew Ng, who Founded a company called Coursera. They're like, oh, I use your courses. And I was like, that's cool. By the way, I ran a company that had courses. So I actually— I still—

so you got tricked into it.

You're like, we're both this. And then at some point he started saying things like, oh, it's not me. I most often get this, uh, like, do I know you? Did we work together? Did we go to school together? Or, hey, you're Andrew Yang. I mean, you know, it's like that does happen just like it happens to you too, where someone's just like, Fung, like Andrew Fung. But then like the— it's also accompanied by occasional confusion. And then I'll actually just cut to the chase and say something like, I'm on TV sometimes. That's why.

Yeah. So I have decided, and I think you do the same thing or a similar thing where I just go and say it like if someone's having trouble, I'm just like, YouTube, YouTube guy. Yeah, YouTube phone pros. And then I'll introduce myself. Yes.

I have no—

I have— I've I'd rather get the interaction, I guess, over with and introduce myself and clarify things versus them like hang around because like it's kind of awkward because I think for me, I've been on the internet a long time and people— I have had a lot of exposure as far as like a lot of views on the channel, but a lot of people don't know the name and they get our faces. They know that the face is familiar, but they get it mixed up with names. And Andrew Ng is funny because it's almost your name too.

Yeah.

And they clearly have seen your face, but now they're mashing identities together, which is totally what people happen. And that's why eyewitness accounts are good, but also shaky. And so when people are like, they're trying to figure it out, I'm just like, yo, yo, Andrew from the Phone Girls. Yeah. And then they're like, yes, yes.

Yeah.

I'm just like, let me, let me do it because I'm like, you're— I was like, you're not going to get it. This is going to take a minute.

Yeah. So I, you know, you and I are two of the only people who have that experience on the regular because I'm sure you get that, uh, and particularly from a lot of Asians.

So yeah, a lot of Asians too, non-Asians too. And by the way, like, I actually have this thing where I think the non-Asians who have watched us percentage-wise get the name correct because my theory is that they probably watch less Asians overall, so there, there's less Asians to get us confused with.

They remember the ones they did watch.

Yes, exactly. So they're like Fung Bros, because they're like, I only watched a few Asian guys talk about sneakers. So it's got to be you guys. So I— there's something about that.

Yeah. So you and I have shared that. And one thing I really appreciate about you and your brother is that you are two of the only Asian Americans of our vintage, your vintage, really, because, you know, you and I are probably like, you know, something of like, like 15 years apart or something along those lines.

Sure.

Not to date myself or whatever.

Sure.

Um, and there aren't that many Asian Americans who've made their bones in just out and out like media. I'm going to put it, there just aren't that many famous Asian Americans. I'm just going to say it.

Yeah. And fame, it's funny. Do you get this question? I get this question a lot where people are like, are you famous? And that's one of those awkward questions where I'm like, I don't know. Like, I'm like famous to the people who know me. But if, if you don't know me, then I'm nobody. Like I always say, I'm, I'm somebody to some people and I'm nobody to everybody else. So then like, I don't know how to answer that question. Like I'm famous sort of within a niche.

Well, you characterize it as like there's YouTube famous and then there's famous.

Yes, I would say YouTube fame. And it's funny because there's all these people get this idea because like, you know, sometimes girls will like recognize us and in the past more so, but like there's even been crazy reactions from people, right, who just spot us out in places that they don't expect.

By the way, I was at— we were at a deli or whatever and someone freaked out upon seeing—

yeah, sometimes the freakout is even more— I'm like, whoa, you don't have to do this. Like, this is—

geez, I really actually enjoyed seeing that, by the way.

There's like gasping and stuff.

And I saw that. I saw— yeah, that's great.

And I'm like, I'm not a musician, what are you doing? You know, but musician love— and I got musician friends and they're like, the love that musicians get is so different than like YouTubers, where a lot of people like, dudes will be like, yo, like, I see girls like recognize you, like, I'm like, it's not, it's not like that. Like, it's really just chill. Like, it's not— they, they— I'm like, uh, it's like comedian love, kind of, you know, like, or, or newscaster. Like, you see newscasters all the time, you recognize them, but like, you know, it's kind of like in between that love.

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You do always ask me about dating. This is funny. Yeah, you're always curious. Like, every so often you're like, hey, who's dating?

What's going on?

Uh, that's my Andrew Yang impression.

Hey, what's going on?

Uh, yeah, so I would say generally, um, I don't— so I, I'll answer this question. Some people are like, oh, do you date like fans? Like people? I'm like, not real— like, that's kind of weird. Like if they're a fan fan, or like if they start off like I've been on the dating apps and sometimes someone will message you, "Ah, Fong bro!" And I'm like, this is not how I want to start. It's a little weird. Just calm down. Like, you could play it cool. Some people will play it cool like Dave Erickson. I think right now some people have— I look familiar to them, but they're not fully sure from where because maybe they haven't seen something in a while, so they can't put a name to the face. And that's totally cool, you know? I mean, It's nice that when people kind of understand or appreciate what I do, but that's not a requirement. But yeah, there's definitely, um, yeah, there's a portion of, of people who have seen something in the past and they're like, hey, yeah, you look familiar. And that familiarity can help you, and not just in dating, but just in obviously networking and meeting people in general, you know, like you're familiar for doing something that they enjoyed or that they found interesting. So those are good points.

I guess if that answers your question, I'm obviously trying to live vicariously through my young friend.

Do you have a beautiful wife? That's all I'll say. But like, she's awesome.

Oh yeah. I mean, people know I'm happily married. I'm like a family man and all that. But still, you know, obviously, you know, we're only two letters apart. Andrew Yang and Andrew Fong, very similar names.

That's why I go by Drew now, because since Andrew's always around, so.

Mm. Yes, I actually use Drew sometimes when I'm ordering.

You can't do that.

Restaurant or whatnot.

Drew's what the streets call me.

One reason why I also— I'm like, again, internally, eternally indebted to both you and your brother because you sense that there's something where you guys like to try and help out Asian bros, Asian creators, Asian creatives. Yeah. And why not? And by the way, For those, those people who, you know, know me, it's like, uh, I, um, share that inclination in part because I think it's very, very difficult for, uh, Asian Americans, like in a lot of the kind of, I'll say political realm, media realm. Like I just don't think it's easy. And, and it, and it's partially because, um, maybe, uh, there are cultural aspects, there's the immigrant aspects, like, you know, some of the jokes I tell about how my parents tried to keep me from running for office when I told them. And then months later, they were, you know, getting interviewed by the press about how they raised such a, like, a courageous son or whatnot. And they lied. But, but there's, you know, internal resistance. There's a resistance, you know, within your family or sometimes. And the community doesn't necessarily rally around each other in the way that frankly, someone might hope. Like, one of the things I had just had on the podcast as an example, a guy named Sam Wong who's running for Congress. By the way, this, this, his profile is absurd where he's a neuroscientist who's a professor at Princeton and he's running for Congress in New Jersey. I mean, it's wild.

And elect him.

Yeah, no, really. And one of his platform elements is, you know, we could use more scientists in Congress. And I thought about it and I was like, yeah, we really could. And he's you know, raised six figures, a very credible campaign. It's a 13-candidate race. So if this guy, you know, gets some momentum, he could— he could genuinely win. And so I have gone to, you know, various folks in the community, been like, hey, check this candidate out. And some people are like, yes, into it. And then others, you know, crickets. And so you— you, by the way, so like, I obviously appreciate it when someone is like, oh, sure, like, you know, like, let me check him out. Happy to help. You have that spirit. I like to think I have that spirit. Do you think that that spirit, or how would you characterize that spirit?

Are you kind of referring to like the abundance mindset part of it where it's like can give first? Like, I believe in, like, I think I'm pretty, I think I'm pretty helpful. You are pretty giving.

Like, this is my point, is that I, I find you to be helpful. You mean you helped me when I was again like this very, very marginal candidate?

Yeah.

And then you guys helped elevate my campaign at a time when we really needed it.

Yeah.

I do think, though, that the Asian American community is not excellent at necessarily coming together to like get behind folks who stick their neck out from our community. And just want to say like very grateful to everyone who supported my campaign of any background, obviously. But one joke I will share was that like, you know, Zach, everyone knows my campaign manager, tall, handsome white dude. So I'm running for president. And then he asks me at some point early on, it's like, hey, 'When are the Asians going to get behind you?' He's like, 'I kind of, you know, I thought it was a little automatic. That might be a thing.' Yeah. And then, you know, and I said to him, with like, just off the top of my head, 'After other people do.' Yeah.

Yeah. I think, first of all, there is an— let's be honest, there's an Asian hierarchy and there's a lot of different types of Asians who have made it in different spheres. And there's there's even economic and educational and class difference because Asians is such a big group. It's not a monolith. So I think that there's definitely a portion of Asians that are very, very strict. First of all, they're not born to support a bunch of people. That's not how they're raised. They're not raised with this like, oh, like they're cool, like let's help each other out, like community thing. Like, you know, maybe they didn't play enough team sports. Maybe they weren't around enough types of people. Maybe they were, just raised in a family where they were just drilling like, you have to be successful and climb and climb and climb. And, and if you're raised that way, it's, it's tough to blame you to a certain extent. Obviously there's a point in your life where you have to deal with other people and you have to learn these things, and there's no excuse at some point. It's like, are you the type of person to— that you're willing to give a little bit first? And I think a lot of particularly Asians who are raised to be high achievers don't do that. They're not raised to think like that. And it's very hard for them to, to be like— I mean, if you've never supported anybody in your life and you never even had like a sports team you went out for and cheered for, or friends, uh, teammates that you had to just go to bat for regardless, like, you're not, you're not used to that, right? That's all coaching and training. And I think a lot of these things are not necessarily like built into anybody genetically. It might be built into the culture of the family a little bit more, but it's all learned and it's all coaching, right? This mindset of like, hey, like, this person is cool because based on my principles that I have, I've in my mind validated them. I can support them a little bit. I can either give them some money, give them a shout out, tell a couple other friends about them, share what they're doing. You know, and I think Asians are getting to it. I think even your campaign tested it. You know, obviously I know not all Asians supported you on the same level. I know Asians who didn't really support you early on, and I was telling them about you, and I was like, you know, and I wasn't like blindly telling them about Yang like the most fanatic person, but I was just like, "Yeah, he's cool. You should check him out." And they were just like, "Meh." And then later down the road when you got more validation, and maybe to their credit they needed to get to know you a little bit better, but then they come out and support you and they're like, okay, cool, now I can, I can feel good about this, you know. And, uh, it's, yeah, it's either between, I think, a lot of Asians being raised with a lack of abundance mindset and also, uh, the whole saving face thing. Yeah, what's face? Like, I don't want to support him early on and then him be a loser and then like it make me look like I support losers. Not that you're a loser.

Oh, no, you know what I mean?

I mean, you're not a loser.

I mean, I technically am a loser, so it's fine.

Hey, hey, but a loser is a mindset.

You're all—

you're just a person who hasn't won yet.

I'm a future winner. Yeah, that's what we tell our kids. Do you know who J. Caspian Kang is?

I don't know him personally, but I read his book The Loneliest American.

That's what I was going to talk about. So check it out. So J. Caspian Kang's a writer. He's written for New York Times, a lot of very, very estimable publications. And he wrote a book on Asian American identity. Called The Loneliest American.

It was really interesting.

Which— so what was your takeaway from it?

So I summarized that book and then I emailed it to like 50 friends, my summary of the book, because I knew they weren't going to—

you did people such a service because they were obviously not going to read the book.

Yeah. Well, to be honest, I, I listened to the audiobook, but I took notes while I listened to it.

Yeah, 1000%.

Yeah. And this was before ChatGPT, by the way. That book was really interesting because I took away that the main message was essentially like, it's tough for Asians. A lot of Asians do not fit into this white-black dichotomy in America, and we kind of exist in an interesting space where some people lean this way, some people lean that way, which unfortunately are the two teams, which doesn't make any sense. It's like you're an immigrant, you land here, and they're like, uh, all right, so which team are you on, Team White or Team Black? And you're like, Yeah, you know, I just come here like, I just want a better life.

Like, what are you talking about?

Like, what do you mean? I got to pick a team, you know? And then, so I think he raises a lot of interesting questions in that book and poses a lot of interesting points. And I thought it was one of the most interesting books I'd read about Asian American identity. And I think because it came from a more macro perspective. Like, I like the books that focus on a person's personal story. I think that's always cool too, memoirs and stuff like that. But like, when he was able to zoom out and be like, hey, this is like, yo, even my— his Korean parents, they were like, I don't know what being Asian American is. I'm just Korean and then I'm in America. You saw to them, the Asian-American— and I'm not saying that's all Korean parents, by the way, but just a lot of parents in general Yeah.

And he went to the genesis of Asian American identity, which was, you know, like in California where like in the '60s they sort of fashioned it.

And that leads— it doesn't lead me to this point, but like I kind of had this thought. I was like, yo, I think America could use more Asian values right now.

No, say more.

I think this is— this is the time, especially with everything's going on, is like Yo, what if we like— I wanted to write this book, actually have a treatment for it about what would it be called? It's called like Think Like an Asian or something where I'm just like, think Asian principles, Eastern principles that could help America without sacrificing what it means to be American. You know, a little bit more humility without giving up dominance. There's like even certain Eastern preventative medicines that not all the TCM, traditional Chinese medicine stuff, but some of it Eastern meditation that comes from the East.

All this stuff, think, think like an Asian would be a hit. You know what reminds me of a little bit? Do you know who Amy Chua is? Yeah, yeah. So she wrote an Asian parenting book, but you know, 20 years ago.

Yeah, title, Hymn of the Tiger Mom.

Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom. And it's like you freaking drill your kids and like, da da da da da, and it became a hit. So think like an Asian, dude, like that, that, and it's now, he has trademark the title by saying it out loud right here in this podcast. Yeah, think like an Asian.

Asians are doing—

by Andrew Fong—

are doing the right thing right now. Like, I'm not— I don't want to speak on anybody else. I'm just saying Asians are doing what we're supposed to. Yeah, I think, I think Asians are the best Americans. I stand on this. I have the stats. I don't— you know, I'm not going to say that you agree, but I think you'd get what I'm trying to say in terms of America needing to incorporate Asian values or lessons.

By the way, you know, I ran for president. We had like the math hats.

And yeah, and you kind of—

symbol—

what's funny is like, obviously there's criticism. Everybody always has their criticisms, you know, and people are trying to criticize. Oh, he's playing the math thing. That's an Asian stereotype. And I was like, all right, what do you— it's like you're trying to promote math and then all of a sudden you're being stereotypical and it's like All right.

Yeah. So my attitude on this too, by the way, this is— and I make this case to Asian Americans, really any group all the time— is, but speaking for myself, my family immigrated to this country. I was born here and I look up and be like, okay, let's make good things happen for people. Huh? What's with this setup you guys have here? This two-party system, split the country in two, yell at each other. It's like, this does not seem awfully constructive or productive. Like, maybe you should rethink that a little bit, and maybe you should try and have policies that actually improve outcomes for people. Like, you know, it's kind of measurements, like numbers, math, um, that, that sort of thing. Um, and so one of the arguments I make to groups is, look, there's this middle ground in American life around pragmatism and outcomes and results and data. And that the, you know, I think Asian Americans just kind of naturally gravitate towards that in large part because maybe we run small businesses. And if you run a small business, you have to be very pragmatic and like, you know, just try and get the stuff right. And like, no one cares about, uh, you know, like the, like you can't, one of my, uh, comments on business owners is you can't berate the numbers and make them agree with you.

Obviously there's also like the whole idea of harmony, which is a big like Confucian value. And I'm not telling everybody to be Confucian. I'm just saying that now at this point in America with all the— whether it's Judeo-Christian or the Western, like, you know, Greek principles and everything that has come from that— I'm saying it could be a good time to mix in some Eastern stuff now, which actually people are in the wellness space. Like there's a lot of people who love like what people are. You see all these buff ripped rip guys on Instagram jumping around doing qigong in the morning, nice, hitting their lymphatic, you know, getting their, their blood and muscles going. And, um, I think people are waking up and being like, yo, there's actually something to this. You know what's funny? I had a conversation with Marianne Williamson, right? And I actually interviewed her, uh, and she's actually into this stuff. And, and, and she kind of— not to quote her, but she was like, yo, like, America could use some more of this stuff. Like, be cool. And I'm like, Dude, who better than to deliver than— unless white people want to take credit for the Eastern values again. But I'm like, y'all already taking mahjong, like, just let us, let us do this. Focus Features and Blumhouse present Obsession.

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So the passage from The Loneliest Americans that stuck with me the most was when Jay Caspian Kang said, no one gives a shit about us. No one gives a shit about this group in general. In general. And I actually laughed. And then he said, it's kind of difficult to write a book on a topic where the argument is no one gives a shit about this topic.

And we give some shits, Jay.

And so I actually laughed out loud at that page. But was like, oh my God, like there's something very, very correct about that. In your opinion, how come?

Why? I want to hear your side. Why do you think nobody gives a shit about us?

My—

and us can be Asians or Asian males.

My take on it is genuinely that America is so black-white bifurcated Unfortunately, Americans kind of enjoy the tribalism, the conflict, the character drama, the rivalry, the us versus them, the rivalry, like, you know, all that. And so if you're like, hey guys, let's like focus on like, you know, what would actually work for everyone, it's like, oh yeah, I don't want to hear it. It's like, you know, fuck you. And so like, and I think that if you had like a multipolar system, then people could have different perspectives and voices and you'd be like, oh, you know, like you're not one team or another, you're this other thing. And that's cool. And like, let's hear what you have to say and you're important.

Like, you know, you know what the most stable shape is? Triangle.

Yeah, let's go.

Why should there at least be a triangle?

Should it—

like, 3 levels is always the— look, just as first, second, third degree, like crimes. Like, why does the judicial system have 3 levels? Because it kind of makes sense.

But this is something, and this might get kind of deep or personal for a second, but one of the takeaways from that J. Caspian Kang, no one gives a shit about Asian American, like, you know, interest, identity, like I'm writing a book about something no one gives a shit about. And I hint at this a little bit in Hey Yang, Where's My $1,000? But check it out. Like, I consider myself a do-gooder. I'm something of a public figure. I'm one of the more prominent Asian Americans. Um, and so there are people that like me, um, because they think I'm going to make a difference. They, you know, that they like my approach to things or they just like because you're famous too. Yeah. Or, you know, maybe at this point, any other reason. Cool. Who knows? Yeah. At this point, who knows?

Um, ultimate swag.

And there's like a persona that comes with being, let's call it like a high-functioning Asian American man. Um, and the inverse of that No one gives a shit about, um, like the inverse would be, hey, like, you know, evincing vulnerability or doubt or need. Like I ran an organization Venture for America and I joke with people, but this is pretty accurate. Uh, there were two pitches I could give. One, we need your help. Two, we're this rocket ship and we're going places and would love for you to get on board, but we're going to go there with or without you.

Mm-hmm.

The first pitch did not work. Like, we need your help did not work. What did work was we're rocket ship, we're going places. And I actually think that part of that is tied up with this observation by Jake Caspian Kang. It's like it— and when, as an Asian American in public life, like, if you evince vulnerability, shame, weakness, um, you know, any of those things, people like, oh, like, you're even—

humility is seen as weak.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, if you're like, hey, I'm like, you know, super powered, super confident, like, you know, invincible, successful, then it's like, oh, I'm down. Yeah. And, and that, that's something, by the way, that might not be all Asian American men. It could be like just men generally in America because like, you know, it like Maybe men just don't get rewarded.

I think part of it is a lot of Asian— and I'll just speak on Asian guys— a lot of Asian men have had trouble, whether they're trying or not, to make people feel something interesting. So here's my thing. America loves having enemies. They love competition. Western people. I mean, if you look at Europe, they were all a bunch of groups next to each other. So it kind of pushed them to help develop more weaponry because, you know, you're going to advance your technology in order to—

very militaristic culture, very militaristic.

Right? And then military-industrial complex, whatever, blah blah. In America, where having an enemy, an opponent, is like what drives America, it burns like— it needs America to kill fuel that keeps feeding that fire for America to— that's why I think America needs to make enemies. And like, China's an enemy right now, uh, obviously Iraq, blah blah, all this other stuff. Um, always keeping enemies And maybe it's because, I don't know, America somewhat like has like, you know, these, these, you know, safe borders to an extent, you know, from other, from their enemies, you know. That's why they're not like, oh, Mexico's great, that's not our enemy, obviously, you know. But they're like, oh, across the seas, 3,000 miles away, enemy, you know. And then so that burns and just keeps America pumping, military-industrial complex pumping, economy pumping, right? So America just needs this and I think Asians, Asian guys don't really— in America, Asian American men don't really fall within this. Like, we're not— when the— unfortunately, it's like white and black and they're always competing, or at least drawing at each other. Asians are like—

we're like, well, Ronny Chieng says we're like the referees.

Yeah. Are we in the game? Are we— are we the refs even? But are we the refs? Because no one listens to us.

Oh yeah.

So that's it. I love Ronny's joke and Ronny's hilarious, but If we were going to break it down, are we even the refs right now?

I don't think—

who listens? Who listens? The refs have power.

Yeah, the refs have the whistle.

So, uh, but I think in our minds we're the refs. I think we think like refs, and that's what I think Ronnie meant, where it's like we actually see the game, like what's actually happening, and that's why more people should hear us out. With that said, for some reason, emotionally speaking, we can't rile up America. And I think you did for a moment because you were— you got behind one cause, which was great that, you know, you had a direction. You said, I want to help people get out of poverty. I want to give everybody $1,000 a month. You had these hard, strict, like, you know, this message. And I think that people were hearing it out, you know, and I think— but I think that's very hard to do. So I always say you're like the only Asian guy that I know that got famous primarily for just his thoughts.

Wow. Well, thank you.

And what you had to say. So that's big. And but, but yeah, in general, I think, you know, we have trouble making people feel something.

People— Americans feel something.

They want to feel something.

Yeah.

And I know that there's probably going to be some jokes people make about that, but like, I'm just saying, like, because we're often so even-keeled, mild-mannered. That's why when I see educated, like, coastal Asian guys say something or like say something that people would deem as extreme, I'm like, I'm just here. I'm just— these people are generally reasonable.

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That was the argument that Wesley Yang wrote. And this was even, you know, yeah, Wesley, also another good writer. Yeah, yeah, I was like, the Souls of Yellow Folk. He ended the article saying that we need more rebels, you know, like raconteurs, like, like people to tear shit up.

Yeah, you know who's like the most like boring man in America is considered like a mild-mannered, educated, college-educated Asian guy like that's, you know, but in a way that's like who we should actually have more in power. Well, yeah, I mean, we need more boring— like, I don't want to say boring people, but we need more like even-keeled people, less extreme, competent professionals. Yeah, competent professionals that are like reasonable.

I would accept reasonable, competent professionals in a lot of situations.

That's seen as boring.

Yeah, no, at this point, boring would be an upgrade.

Yeah, people want the highs and the lows. They want that roller coaster. Yes. That's why they stay in toxic relationships. I just did a podcast on like a love thing about this and I was like, it's not like love is just that feeling that you get. It goes up and down and like love, passion and romance are actually key components of a toxic relationship. That's why you stay in it, because you have the highs and lows. And then when you hit the low, You're just addicted to trying to get for the high again. And in a way that is like similar to America or even like whatever you want to say, how people do drugs in America, the drugs are getting stronger and it's just like people, they want that high. Well, you know, giving them that high.

I mean, as someone who's been married for 15 years, it's true like that, that energy is different.

It was— are you fulfilled and satisfied?

It's been like fulfilling, it's been like warmth and comfort.

Yeah.

More than the highs and lows of some of my relationships with exes. And didn't I, you know, I just want to say to all of my exes out there right now, look at me now. No, I'm kidding.

They're not watching. I hope they leave a comment though.

They're definitely not watching.

I went on a date with Andrew Yang in 2001 or whatever.

And I don't know who exactly, I really don't.

Too many, too many Yang.

Yeah, I might not know.

Gosh.

That, you know, again, man, that's why, why, we have to, you know, live vicariously through people who are still out there making it happen. And I root for, you know, I mean, you and I are friends, so like I root for you on that level, but root for guys generally.

Yeah.

And it, you know, it's like you can romanticize when you were younger, but I actually like remember how hard it was to be young and to be out there dating. And then even when you think something might you know, go somewhere, you have like a really exciting first date or whatnot, and then it goes to shit, like, you know, X days later, or the person ghosts you or all that stuff. And I took that stuff very, very hard. I took it very much to heart.

Yeah. I mean, you've got a lot of, you know, happiness.

You're a very sensitive guy.

Happiness is all about aligning your expectations with what you're getting. But you know what's funny is like dating back then, and I still, because I'm old enough, I still remember kind of dating back then before all the apps and everything, and it was still hard. But what happened back then is like, you— everybody had it hard. But now on social media, it gives you everybody's highlights, so you just feel like it shouldn't be that hard. But guys, younger guys, if you're watching— I have no idea what age group watches this, but I don't know if they're 20-year-olds, but if any 20-year-olds are watching, it's hard all the time to date, but it's that at a time we all knew it was hard, so everybody banded together and did things knowing that it was hard. But now you just assume like, oh, you're gonna get some money, get good looking, and then dating super easy. And that's how it feels and that's how it seems, you know, due to social media. And I think that's— that's—

I think— I mean, dude, that's really not the case. Like, I, I talk to people all the time who have a lot going for them, and it's— I think it's hard all over. I think the apps By the way, the apps— I saw the stat where Tinder usage has plummeted, or the dating apps have fallen out of favor because they're exhausting. And then there are these gender dynamics that pick up on them. I know men who are out on them. I know women who are out on them. And there's something of a movement around getting back to old-school get-togethers. There are even some people investing in various things. Now, to me, I mean, The world has changed. I wish in many ways it hadn't changed, uh, you know, for the sake of, uh, the next generation. Um, but I will say that people's minds are being opened to the fact that these apps have not been all they're cracked up to be.

Yeah. I mean, it's a tool. I think it's, it's worked. I mean, I know people who have, I know people who have, but it's a tool again, and it can be exhausting, exhausting easily. And I, I think that human connection doesn't change. After all this, AI is going to change how we code or write stuff or even work and blah, blah, blah. We all know this is coming and it's here right now. But like human connection, like that, starting relationships and partnership, that's not going to change because that's like hardwired into us. Like we didn't— what do you think about that quote? Did you ever hear that quote? It was from some scientist, I think, or he was always like we— and people always bring this up where it's like We have Paleolithic emotions, Stone Age minds, Stone Age minds, Stone Age brains, Stone Age brains, medieval institutions.

Yeah.

And godlike technology in the palm of our hands.

Yeah.

It's like, are we even like—

I mean, that's the summary of where we are.

Are we, are we ready for it? What's—

Oh, we're totally unready.

Okay.

And one of my goals is to try and upgrade our institutions, but that's very difficult.

And upgrade institutions. Yeah, yeah.

Trying to upgrade them from medieval to modern. I mean, that would be the dream, man.

Maybe it's because the secret societies are still based in the medieval rules that's running everything. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if you want to get into that, but you know, actually, we don't have to talk about too long. But in general, what's your take on conspiracy theories?

I know, I think that they're kind of all the rage now. I mean, I think that we're in a very deeply skeptical and dubious time. And so if I say, hey, these guys are full of shit and here's why, like, very, very compelling.

Yeah.

And sometimes there's some truth to it, you know, like, is— are the Epstein files a thing? Yes. Like, did lots of very prominent people do fucked up shit? Obviously. And it's probably right. But no one's— no one's getting—

yeah.

And then that would have been a conspiracy theory a minute ago. So, you know, I get it. I get it.

My overall take is like, if you start believing some conspiracy theories, you almost have to be skeptical of everything now. Well, yeah, it's only fair. Even the things that go against your team, because everybody's like we said, very tribal. And now finally MAGA is like, hey, did Trump's assassination really— that was a little fishy. I'm just saying things are fishy.

I'm like a both/and guy where it's like I see the skepticism. And I actually in many ways know some of the institutional players. And like I joke, it's like, you know, they're just people doing stuff. And a lot of the times we project malignant intent onto them when they just really just missed it or they fucked up or there was like an omission or a mistake. And be like, oh, it's like actually maybe they just filled the form out wrong or whatever the fuck, you know. But, you know, I mean, as someone too who you know, has been on, um, you've been somewhat behind the scenes.

Yeah.

Yeah. And also been on both sides of that where it's like, I got accused of something and I'd be like, what? And then they'd be like, well, like that piece of it has like a fact in there that is accurate, but the rest of it is not accurate. But then what do I do with like the fact that blah, blah, blah. And so then obviously I wrote poems about it to unpack the burden. I'm kidding on that, that last part. Um, so Andrew, uh, what kind of content are you making now? How can people, uh, follow you? First, let me recommend Smala Sauce. Go right now, smalasauc.com, order, uh, order a container or three.

We're actually selling out soon, so, but it will be launching in Texas very soon at a big retailer in Texas, um, many locations.

You will thank me for it. It will make your sandwiches better, your pizza better, everything better. Um, but if someone wants to follow you, I, you, I mean, you're on all the socials, I'd imagine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, follow me and my brother on YouTube. My brother is currently in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, and he's, he's the worldwide global arm of the Fung Bros now. Uh, and then, uh, yeah, I'm in based in New York. You can follow my Instagram, follow my YouTube. I think, um, our content is changed over the years. I do think we're transitioning and figure things out, figuring things out, but that does not stop us from posting videos that we're— and topics that we're passionate about. We're still hopefully, I would like to say, leading a conversation, a discourse, uh, about Asians and Asian Americans, you know. And I still have a passion to talk about other topics, but you know, in a world of this much content, you kind of have to niche it out and specialize. So I'm like, cool. Talking about Asians, that's a mission. I'm down with that for a long time. So I want to keep doing this.

Andrew Fung, thank you for all you do. Thank you for your friendship and support over the years. And looking forward to seeing what you do next, including the bestselling book, Think Like an Asian. You heard it here first.

Well, now that you plugged it so many times, it's like, it has to— I got to go write this in the next 3 weeks.

Yeah, totally. Totally. 2 weeks max.

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