Don't Say Um: How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life

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Yes, you do need communication coaching. Not you, but everybody. Because it's, it's a. It is the fabric of our lives that we walk through every single day. And can you get better? Yeah, growth, mindset, people. You can get better at practically anything, of course, if you treat it as a skill and if you put some dedication into.

Is a pleasure to welcome back to the podcast. You may be familiar to some of you Communication guru and author of the brand new book don't say how to Communicate More Effectively to Live a Better Life. Drum roll please. Michael. Chad Hepner. Welcome, Michael.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

It's great to have you back. So people who don't know who you are. Michael was my communications coach on the presidential and this story does make into the book for which I'm very proud. But after debate number one, which if you remember was not great, though now I frankly blame msnbc, my team was like, who's the best communication coach in all the land? And they found Michael and he is indeed the best. And while we were roaming around the, you know, cornfields of Iowa or whatever, I was like, you know, Michael, you should write a book. And then here we are.

That's exactly right. In fact, we were in a cab. We were roaming around cornfields, in fact. And you said, I think you have a book in you. And I said, funny thing, Andrew, I've been working quotes on a book for a long time, and it's getting there. And so, yes, now we are. In fact, there it is. Here it is. Living it exists.

Catchy title. Don't say. But one of the first things in the book you say is, hey, that's terrible advice.

Yeah.

Because it turns out that no one can keep a negative thought in their mind or use it effectively. Now, you go way back in these disciplines, and so one of the reasons why I think you're such an innovator in this space is that you arrived as a Broadway performer.

Yeah, Yeah. I spent 10 years in the acting discipline. I went to NYU Graduate Acting Program for theater, and then I worked as a professional actor, Broadway and film and tv for about, you know, seven, eight years or so. And that definitely informed how I teach and what I teach. But the thing that clicked was that it wasn't just about that. It was about taking tools and even everyday objects that people can use to help them physically change certain patterns. So, yes, it's about performance, but it's also about big fancy term called embodied cognition, and getting people to behave differently, to essentially work around habits that have plugged them their entire life.

So you took your background as a performer, plus your clear brilliance and intellect and your innate desire to help people, and then turn that towards business training. Everyone under the sun. But also, you are affiliated with Columbia Business School, whipping future CEO types into shape.

Yeah, I taught at Columbia for. I don't teach there anymore. I've moved out of the city, but I taught there for about half a decade or so, and that was some of the MBA students. But we also designed a course which was cool because they need it. And I don't mean that as a criticism. I mean it that they don't typically get this kind of support.

They don't.

We designed a course for the PhD students, and that one I'm even more proud of, because those folks work for many, many, many years perfecting whatever they're working on, and then they get unleashed into the world to go have much of their life determined by a job talk or a dissertation defense. And they've had almost no training. So we corrected this, we changed it, and have a course now for the PhD students, too.

Well, so, guys, this is something I'm familiar with, so check it out. I went to law school I Columbia, and you might have some weird thought of law school training that you get taught to speak in a courtroom or make arguments. Or debate. None of that. No, none of that happens. And then I cross registered at the business school also at Columbia. And the. The same. Like you'd think that maybe they would have some kind of seminar and like how to give a big presentation, Steve Jobs style. Like also none of that.

Yeah. Honestly, I think it's a little bit of a crime for people's careers. I know that sounds dramatic. It's not. Speaking is a physical activity. It takes 100 muscles more to do what we're both doing right now. And the idea that you're gonna train so muscular. Yeah.

And you're gonna train two world class communicators. So many facial muscles being exerted, more.

Diaphragm, lungs, everything but these. They sit behind a desk, they study or they work their dissertation or just.

Like you're talking about it's very years.

And then all of a sudden they're going to be in front of a huge audience. Right. Either a jury, if they're going to be a litigant.

Totally true. So law school is super bookish. I got offers from half a dozen law firms and it wasn't exactly like a public speaking contest. It was almost purely academic. And so there was kind of self sorting for people that like to speak, didn't like to speak, were good at speaking, not good at speaking. But the truth is that this is a massive professional skill. So this is one of the the things about America. So we have this highly standard, standardized testing dependent academic system that emphasizes particular cognitive skills. And so when you go to college, for example, sales is thought of as unintellectual. And so you think oh, like a sales guy. And then you know, you have this image of a sales guy, like a used car salesman. It's like, oh, that's not what I want to be. Like I want to be the brain or something like that. Meanwhile, and I hate to break this to everyone, but if you're going to be a CEO, you're going to have to sell a lot. And not just sell customers or investors. You have to sell your team, you have to sell vendors, you have to sell the landlord that you're a good risk. You have to sell, you know, like that there's a lot of, of sales baked in. If you want to be a founder of a nonprofit, like what's that going to be? Like a whole lot of stuff. You have to raise money, sell, you know, it's like. So there's like, and I can say this as a formerly introverted or you know, maybe even currently introverted who Knows Asian American, son of immigrants or whatnot. There was this discomfort that accompanied me at every stage, like, oh, I have to, you know, sell up to sell. But then like I started realizing it's like, oh, if I don't learn to sell, I will be stuck in the back. Yeah, I'll wind up the grinder. So I will also say that my personal experience, I was on the high school debate team and that ended up being very helpful to me. I considered myself a very good debater and speaker because I made the US national team as a high school senior, was sent to London, England where I got wrecked by the British, the Brits, you know, like everyone else, but still like thought, hey, you know, I must be pretty good at this. And then did a lot of presentations and teaching around an education company. I would show up, I would teach open houses, I would teach our corporate clients. So I was like very, very experienced. And so the thought of bringing in a coach during the presidential frankly was not something that I thought I needed honestly, because it's like, and this is by the way, is one of the things that most people resist. And you talk about this in the book somewhat where people, it's like, oh, this is somehow unnatural.

Yeah. Well, let me put it back to you. So what happened? What was that moment when like I got this, I don't need this, I'm high school debate champion. And then what was the transformation to recognizing, oh, I can get better at this too?

Well, I like, I consider myself improvement oriented and coachable and a non jerk.

And I would agree all those, yes, definitely non jerk.

And so I, you know, we're in the presidential campaign and they bring you in. It was actually Zach, Zach, they bring you in. And so then I was like, oh, let me be open minded. And then you're actually excellent at what you do and concrete and you know, wasn't, it was very action oriented. It was physical. And by the way, you said this earlier, but one of the things I constantly have in my head where you're concerned is that communicating is a physical act. And so what would happen on the presidential all the live long day is that I'd wake up at the ass crack of dawn, it'd be 6:00am, they'd throw me in a rental vehicle, I'd go do some talk radio in New Hampshire. And then guess what? I'm not exactly super pumped and energetic. And so you made me realize like, look, if you're say the first words out of your mouth or whatever the heck that interview is, like it's probably gonna sound like you just woke up, because that's true. Yeah. So maybe you should do some warm ups in the rental vehicle, maybe. And so the team got so sick of me saying Topeka bodega in the morning, because, by the way, that's something that you use to get your facial muscles warmed up. But I would just be like, topeka bodega. Topeka bodega. And I'd sound like I was spouting gibberish. But, you know, as like weekend warrior type, failed athlete, you know, it's like the athletic metaphor really, really worked for me. And by the way, you may not know this, but during the presidential debates, we're on this incredibly awkward line. It's me, Amy Klobuchar, Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren. And then I literally just start jumping up and down and like, like bouncing around a little bit. Like it's like a boxing match or something like that.

Price fight. Yeah.

And the people, the candidates around me, most of them happily were kind of like, bemused because, you know, I was like, kind of the spunky upstart candidate. And at some point initially, some of them did not like me. But then by debate number four or five, they were like, yeah, like, I actually kind of like Yang. He's fine. So I was like, literally bouncing up and down, in part because of your voice in my mind saying, you know, communicating is a physical act.

Yeah, well, I'm so glad that hit home. I really am. And it's not just a, you know, mindset or something like that. You're actually growing and developing your communication muscles. So as much as the team did not love you having Topeka bodega on repeat, I hope it sticks with you for the rest of your life.

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Yes.

And you even use this very basic example of this high school kid trying to get his friends to go to see a movie that he wanted to see.

Yeah.

So one argument is just about everyone could use better communication ability.

Yeah. Well, not just that, but you mentioned high school students. So in actually a couple days I'm going to be on Good Morning America talking about this very thing. Talking about teens and, and how they have challenges talking. Now maybe it's a screen all the longer.

Exactly.

Right. Because they're more used to talking into a screen than they are to another person. So to the question of like some.

Of them try to avoid it having any kind of conversation.

Yeah, yeah. I talked to my friend as a 15 year old son, he told me that like flirtation now happens first via Instagram or some other, you know, whatever it is, technologically mediated format. And then if they do that long enough, eventually they might actually bump into each other in the hall and then maybe say hi. It's completely, completely mediated by the screen. Which is crazy. But anyway, the point there is that yes, you do need communication, coaching. Not you, but everybody. Because it is the fabric of our lives that we walk through every single day. And can you get better? Yeah. Growth, mindset, people. You can get better at practically anything, of course, if you treat it as a skill and if you put some dedication into it. So whether or not people buy the book, whether or not they ever seek out.

Buy the book.

Buy the book subliminally. The point is simply embrace it as a skill, practice like an athlete and get better.

Yes. So the book starts out laying out the case and then actually has concrete practices and drills that one can do. And so I think the sport metaphor really helped me. And by the way, yet another pre debate embarrassing image for you all was that we would go outside and throw a ball back and forth and people would be asking me debate questions and then I would be throwing a ball just to get a particular rhythm. And you know, I guess another candidate could have seen us just like, why is Yang throwing a ball around? Also before the. Yeah, I found catch. Yeah, I found this stuff very helpful because by the way the customary pre debate routine is that you're in a green room, very still, you're getting makeup put on, you're standing in line for an extended period of time. It's really not very conducive to your feeling energized or like a human being. Let's talk about different qualities that someone would want to develop. You have a number of chapters on things that people could be looking to improve. And I'll give you one example. Let's say enunciation.

Yeah, sure. Well, let me go back actually, a second, because it can sound as though we're saying, loosen up, warm up. We are. You should. And that ball exercise we would do is absolutely useful for just loosening up and not being all stuck and rigid in that, you know, audition room that is the green room. Absolutely true. But if you remember, we also use that ball, a Wiffle ball, as a answering questions tool where I would ask you a question, and then you were not permitted to start speaking until I threw the ball to you. Catch the ball, then you can give your mock answer. And the point is, what you're doing there, of course, is ingraining the ability to pause for a second and consider what to say next, as opposed to just opening your mouth and letting words fly out. So it isn't just about loosening up and feeling free.

Oh, yeah. It was a rhythm. Because you detected that one of the my issues was that I would feel pressure to launch into an answer and that that pressure was unnecessary and that I actually had much more time than I thought I did.

Yeah. So the Wiffle ball is an example of that. But to your point about enunciation, the whole book, I hope people use it like a cookbook, which is that it has these tabs on the side pages, which you've seen, and the tabs you can flip through and just go to a chapter. Enunciation, posture, gestures, vocal variety, avoiding monotone. And you can just flip to the chapter like a recipe that you need. And I often will joke with people, I'll say, look, I'm the only author who will ever say this, which is, I don't care.

Tear this book up.

Well, yes, two things. Tear it up. But also, I don't care if you read it. I don't. I do care a lot that you read one chapter, because people tend to have something that really gets in their way. And if they can gently shift that one thing, what tends to happen is it unlocks a whole virtuous cycle of good communication. So start anywhere, choose one. And enunciation like you asked about is a perfectly valid one to start with.

Well, so that's one of the reasons why I think this book is innovative, is that you're not trying to prove how smart you are. You, Michael, in this book, you're genuinely trying to help people. And so each chapter is very technical in its way. You know, you talk about the body, you talk about hands, eye contact, each of these things. And like you said, each person will have a different issue they can improve on very quickly. So of my many, many issues. I'm kidding. But. So one issue I had was that I tended to launch into an answer because I felt this pressure. Another thing is that I tended to talk too quickly. And so you measured how many words per minute I was saying. And then you were saying, look, you can actually slow down to this much, which helped a lot because all of a sudden I didn't feel some pressure. I naturally talk kind of fast because I'm so smart, but being able to have a rhythm that improved my delivery, but also tended to improve my substance because I didn't, you know, I actually did have a little bit more time to reflect. And most importantly, it made it seem more natural. And that was one of, like the light bulbs that I had when working with you, which was, look, what you're doing is unnatural. And the trick is to make it seem like you're communicating naturally and casually because it makes you more trustworthy. Makes you more trustworthy. Yeah. Credible.

First of all, it is so validating to hear that you've taken all these lessons and you remember them and use them and rely on them. You're 100% right. So the challenge is this. People have a totally false idea of what natural actually is. It's habitual. And the perfect proof point of this is if you ask them what natural posture is when they're feeling self conscious, like in a business meeting or giving a presentation, they inevitably go into some ridiculously contorted, like, faux casual posture that has nothing to do with how people naturally are. Humans are incredible at communicating when they actually are at their most natural, because all the behaviors we think of as the behaviors of confidence or the behaviors of presence come out automatically when we're focused on reaching the other person. That's where enunciation comes from. That's where eye contact comes from, obviously, where gestures, even breath, posture, all of it comes from being focused on the other person trying to get your ideas from your head into sound waves that penetrate their eardrums or bounce their eardrums and affect their brains. So we are at our best when we're natural, but we have a terrible idea of what natural is. So you have to break people out of these received ideas of what they think natural is. And that's why the kinesthetic tools to do that. So to your point about pace, if you remember, it wasn't just words per minute. If you Google how fast to speak, what you will get is a bunch of words per minute. And I think this is a mistake because most speakers, when they're in a moment of adrenaline, have no idea how long a minute is. Couldn't tell you, right?

Yeah, that's probably true.

Even less of an idea of how many words. What is 180 words per minute? I have no idea. So we actually measured in seconds. And if you remember debate one, at one stage you spoke 7.2 words per second, which is way, way, way too fast. The second debate, it was closer to 3.2 words per second. Now that's a whole bunch of math you don't have to worry about. I know your audience is a math audience. In fact, you don't have to worry about the math, though. But the point of that is how fast do you speak when you're at your best? And I don't mean like Andrew Yang Superman presence, I mean really focused on reaching the other person. When you do that, your rate of speech gets unlocked by three really intuitive factors. One, the idea, or, sorry, the time that you need to think of a smart idea. Two, the amount of time you want to give your audience to digest this smart idea. But then three, the amount of time it takes to enunciate, to actually make those words manifest. Now, this magic formula for you ends up around an average of like 3.2 words per second. But when you're at your best, you do those things automatically. Then you get nervous, self consciousness kicks in, which, how could it not? You're on a debate, televised, all this totally artificial situation, and the rate of speech goes to like 7.2%.

They're these asshole moderators. No, I'm kidding. You know, one thing I just realized when you're talking about how when someone's natural and comfortable, there's a certain way that they speak and deliver and communicate. I realized that this is the dynamic behind a lot of podcasts today, where you have a few, I'm just going to say, guys burrowing out.

Yeah.

And it's somewhat compelling because they're communicating very naturally. But then you stick someone behind a podium, it's like a completely different animal. And a lot of what we're talking about here is, like, podium appropriate because, you know, you might be speaking professionally.

Yeah.

And what you try to do is you try and get us back to our state of nature.

Yeah. Well, I'll give you an example. So part of why people like the Broing out podcast is because people use a bigger bandwidth of themselves to communicate.

Yes.

And we do this in real life. So you can even look at vocal variety, which is what you and I are using right now for a whole bunch of really smart purposes, like to surprise an audience, to help them understand meaning, et cetera, et cetera.

And.

And then you go to the podium, and the typical speaker contracts all vocal variety like that.

It becomes sort of monotonous completely. And the vocal variety piece was something that I also really benefited from. So the things that I had issues with to the extent that people are trying to think back to the 2019 season, but I would talk too fast, I would answer too fast, and then sometimes my answers seemed kind of similar to each other because I have a particular way of talking. And vocal variety was a huge boon because it turns out if you pause, if you fluctuate your volume a little bit and pitch, then it seems more natural because that's the way you would communicate if you were just talking to your child or your friend.

Well, there's a story from the campaign. Do you remember we were in Iowa, and you had a big speech at this thing that was gonna make a splash. We practiced a bunch for that. And you were sandwiched between. I think it was Amy. And then Mayor Pete was coming up after you, and you killed. And a lot of what we worked on was that very. And I'll do it now so you can actually hear it, because the first time you're doing a speech, the speech pretty much consisted. And I'll just make some sounds right now. Pretty much consisted right here, the entire time, no matter what. Now I'm giving, like, a characterization of it.

I remember the Iowa buildup. Remember that event?

And then we actually worked so that everything that you said had a build to it. So you were almost, like, at a rock concert or rallying an audience that your voice was all of a sudden had peaks and valleys and all kinds of stuff, and you killed in that situation. It was the best speech of the night.

I remember that vividly. It was an interesting environment, too, because the stage was round, and so you would just be talking, and it was like walking around in circles. And I spoke after Joe Biden, who, by the way, was terrible.

Yeah, terrible.

It's unsettling, terrible. You had to be pretty freaking with it to deliver and the team. And by the way, this is something too, where you and Zach, we really built up to that event because, okay, this is gonna be the chance to make a splash. And then we realized after the fact that the press kind of had already written the story and it didn't really matter, though you can look it up because that event, I think, was the. Either the high point or one of the high points of the campaign in terms of delivery. And it felt. You could feel it. Like it, you know, like I felt it that night. My wife Evelyn is here with us tonight. We have two young boys, Christopher and Damian. And I'm running for president because of a thought that the parents here in this room have had, but we have been afraid to express. And it is this. Our kids are not all right. They are not all right because we have left them a future far darker than the lives that we have led. As their parents, experts are calling this economic transformation, this period, the fourth Industrial Revolution. When is the last time you heard a politician even breathe the words fourth Industrial revolution? Just now. Right? And I am barely a politician. These are the problems that got Donald Trump elected. And this is what you must solve. This is how you must use your power.

You walked off. We gave you a huge hug, if you remember. Now you're saying Biden, probably this whole audience is not surprised to hear that you communicated better than Joe Biden. But what you're forgetting is that Mayor Pete came right after you. Now, people, right now because of his Fox News hits and other things, people think of Mayor Pete as, you know, very, very high on the communication sort of evaluation. You were better than he was that night by not an insignificant margin, by a lot. And a big part of that was that you were actually using your voice like an orator. And for those of you who are keeping track, we mentioned a couple of these P's, but I've actually named this system with a 5P kind of alliterative model to help people remember it. Pace, pitch, pause, power and placement. Pace, of course, is speed. What we were talking about. Pitch is high and low. Pause is silence. That's the Wiffle ball. Power is volume, loud and quiet. And then placement means where the sound amplifies in your body. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking about vocal variety and how it works, you can probably already intuit maybe some of the places in which you could improve and you could have greater fluidity with that. But here's the key thing, everybody. You can forget that system for the rest of your life because you already know it and you know it in your bones. Because we do this when we are actively trying to reach our audience and then we forget to do it and we constrict our bandwidth. Which is back to your point about the bro potusphere. It's partly why it's so effective, because people love watching people communicate in a free and natural and other focused way.

Yeah. One of the environments that's not natural is cable news hits and studios. Because you go in, I mean, I obviously have done my fair share of them now and they're very unnatural. What you, you helped me do is adopt all these practices that made me actually feel more natural. Yeah. And then that ended up coming through and then I internalized them to the point where, like you said, it's like you don't think about it all the time.

Ye.

Because it becomes muscle memory.

Thank you for finishing that with those two magic words, muscle memory. You're exactly right. Now, people who are listening, you may not relate to a televised media hit, 45 seconds, whatever it is, but I promise you, you relate to this idea of feeling unnatural in a high stakes communication situation, whatever it might be. And the essential thing is that you can't rely on some sort of list of mental reminders of stuff to keep in mind. Because all you're doing then is making yourself have to work harder cognitively, more multitasking. You have to build muscle memory. Which is why in the book, you know the chapter on stance, there's pages that you fold flat, there's two footprints. You practice standing on the book with grounded feet. The chapter on enunciation, you rip out a page, fold it up into an impediment, put the impediment in between your teeth and practice fighting past the impediment, the one on structure and conciseness. You tear out a page, tear it up into six pieces, and you practice sharing one thought at a time and placing down the object and tolerating silence. Because you've got to build, just like an athlete, these muscles that you can rely on. Because in those moments, your brain, your squirrely brain, your monkey brain is going to fail you. Your body won't. And this is what performers know, athletes, dancers, singers, actors. But we don't get that training as speakers in everyday life. And that's partly, of course, why I wrote the book. Because I hope people not just like you, who are running for president and can frankly afford to, you know, have me driving around Iowa with you that they can pick up a book for 30 bucks and get some version of the same thing.

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And one of the things you were a pioneer in is that you were trying to develop tech tools for folks early on as well. So what's funny is you would think that Michael clearly somewhat classically trained and Broadway performer and whatnot, and you'd think then it would be book. But really you did it in another order. It was classical training and then tech tools in an app and then book. But you're no stranger to technology. And what's interesting is I think technology is both eroding a lot of people's communication abilities, but it's also making it all the more important if you can do so. Some of the stuff in your book is about how to try and apply these things in a zoom, which some people will be familiar with. I feel like this book is bridging a gap in a way because you also have developed tech tools that people can utilize if they want.

Yeah, sure. So yes, that's kind of a strange order of things to build them in. The truth is that I have an artist's soul and an inventor's soul.

Can you tell?

Can you tell soul of an artist? Now that is not to brag because trust me folks, I'm really bad at a lot of things, but a few of them that I'm good at is thinking of fun, creative ideas. So I actually built. The thing you're alluding to is I built an app in 2015 that now looks like a little bit of a dinosaur, but still not really. But then it was honestly groundbreaking. And the same with this VR headset that I built in 2015 too. And the app allowed you to record yourself and get quick input about how much filler you had. The VR headset, you put it on and you're plunged into a boardroom and you get zapped with loud blaring sounds if you break eye contact. So this is going Back to like 2015 now. I'm proud of all that. And I have not built that into truly a products business yet. We're still very much a service business. I love working with people, but. But I may now go down a new road of rebuilding some of those tools and giving a version two to some of them. It's interesting because we're at the point now where you really could have almost like an exoskeleton of communication guidance at all times. You could have a physical version of Scarlett Johansson in her with Joaquin Phoenix, the earbud, but you could have it over your whole body and it could be giving you gentle, real time guidance on posture and breath and enunciation. Like, we have all that capability. We're very close. So then it quickly gets into the same murky waters we find ourselves in with all tech and all AI right now is do we want that? But could you build tools to make people communicate much, much better right now? Yeah. And they would ultimately be using technology for good versus evil. So to be continued. In fact, there's a version of the app that I built that's coming out again in March, which will have some AI integration. So if people want to use it, I actually it existed when we did the first one of these. It's called Question Roulette. And you can look it up. Apple or Android.

You know, one thing that people find very uncomfortable, and you have them try and do this very early in the book, is just to record themselves speaking and then watch it and critique. I mean, a lot of people cringe at the thought of seeing themselves. Some people I know say like, oh, I hate the sound of my own voice. Yeah, as an example. And I think having comfort with who you are as a communicator and then understanding your strengths and weaknesses is a very big deal. I think that your book will help a lot of people, even just like you said, identify what their area of improvement is. I remember when I was running a nonprofit that I'd started And I was invited to speak at various conferences. And then I was like, oh, I can't do that, because I'm trying to build this org. And I don't know whether speaking at that conference is going to deliver value or whatnot. And it was. My colleague, Mike Tarullo was younger than me, very smart. Now he's doing really well at Bonza. But he said to me, hey, Andrew, in order for Venture for America to get to this level, Andrew Yang has to get to this level. So anything you do that's good for Andrew Yang is good for Venture for America. And so you should go to this conference. And I remember feeling like, oh, like I'm being given permission because I'd feel like I was neglecting my team. You know, you obviously travel away. You go to this thing. And then I would sit on the panel and I would do my thing, I would speak. And nine times out of 10, something good would end up flowing out of my having been to this event. And sometimes that good thing was money. And my goal at that time was to grow the organization, which involved fundraising. But there was some part of me that, like, just. It blew my mind. I was like, wait a minute. It's a thing that you can go to conferences, and if you do a good job making your case, someone will actually write a grant to your organization seven months later. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Like, so it wasn't clear. It wasn't predictable, it wasn't direct. But what was generally predictable is that something good would happen.

Yeah.

I say this as a way to convey just how important communication is, because what was I doing? I was there talking about, you know, the mission, the vision of the organization, you know, what we were doing, and you could drive value. But, like, it hit me during that time, it's like, on one level, because I'm, you know, hardworking, studious son of immigrants, and, you know, blah, blah, blah. It's like, wait a minute. My job is to go to these places, go to these gatherings and talk.

Yeah, well, you're really talking about risk. Actually, three risks. One risk that you took and others can take to watch themselves on video. That's a risk. Number two, the risk to go to the event. But there's a third risk there, which is the risk to try to improve, to actually embrace improvement. Yes, people should watch themselves on video. But that's only part of it, because video is brilliant. At closing what I call the perception to reality gap, you think you're doing one thing, and you watch the video and you're like, holy cow, I'm not doing what I thought at all. And in fact, that's not as bad as I thought. And this part's not nearly as good as I thought either. But that's just the first part, because let's say you do see on that, okay, I never gesture. And in real life, I know I actually gesture with freedom and ease all the time, but when I'm on video, I stop doing it at all. Or conversely, I gesture a lot, and I never knew that I did that.

By the way, most trustworthy gesture, form a globe with your hands.

So let's say you see this, that you don't do that. You want to develop habit. It's not just enough to be aware of it. So as an example, in the gestures chapter, I teach a drill called silent storytelling, in which you have to communicate your idea, but you don't get to use sound. So if you're watching the pod, the exercise works like this. Now, everyone who's just listening, I was basically mouthing words, lip syncing.

By the way, this is the way Trump evaluated himself. Apparently, he would watch his own performances with the TV on mute.

Doesn't he also assess the performance of others that same way? Cabinet appointments, based on how they substance.

Irrelevant, whether you look the part, whether your gestures seem effective, whether you see him in control.

That's right.

Do you have command?

Yeah.

By the way, you know, not just that, Eric Adams, when he was hiring police commissioners, the same thing is like, they had him do mock press conferences and be like, oh, and this is, by the way, one of the darker elements of today is that the substance now has become less relevant compared to just your ability to present, communicate, spin. And this is something that Michael takes very seriously. Michael's like, look, I would prefer to equip good people to do good things because it's a real tool, it's a real skill. But this has definitely started to dominate in our politics. You know, I joked with a journalist the other day that it felt like Trump's team is kind of made for tv.

Yeah.

You know, and that's probably no accident. I mean, they literally just sit there watching video recordings of like, hey, couldn't this person run a good press conference? I mean, half the the way various political figures evaluated is the same. And so you can obviously bemoan that and say, like, it's not great. Or you can just, you know, say, look, this is the world we live in. So, yeah, let me try and become effective within it.

Yeah, let me, let me Pitch audience, Let me pitch you on why delivery matters so very much. So you can think of delivery content, which is what you say. Delivery is how you say it. And the point you're making is that content has been blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It has been deeply eroded for a variety of reasons.

Blah, blah. Yes, I'm delivering it authoritatively and calmly.

Yeah, that's right.

Hire me, Donald. No, I'm kidding.

That's right. So a couple points about what you said. One, Donald Trump is a delivery machine. And by that I mean he doesn't care what comes out of his mouth. But imagine this. Imagine if he in one of the debates, his delivery crumbles. He never has non fluencies. He never actually crumbles or collapses. His posture, he's always gesturing with some level of freedom. He's always spitting out dynamic enunciation when he doesn't know what to say, he just doubles down on superlatives very, very, tremendously, bigly, whatever it is. But he keeps going as almost like a delivery machine. Tall posture, decisive enunciation, sweeping gestures, uniform rate of speech at the top of whatever he's trying to point out as fast as possible. At certain times, if it gets stopped, he simply pauses for a moment and then throws in more superlatives. What if he crumbled? What if he was in a debate and he had a thousand ums and uhs and all of a sudden his gestures collapse in his eye focus drips. People might still vote for him. I mean, at this point, who knows what he'd have to do to lose voters. But his brand of, like, strength in communication, it would crumble almost instantly. Now that's about him. But what's about the listener right now is the following. Delivery matters, and it matters a bunch. And it might even matter more because the brief chapter I have on the end about AI content is getting democratized and ubiquitous and it's happening fast. Everybody has access to brilliant content now because of LLMs and other technology. What they don't have access to is delivering it like the absolute world's expert, necessarily. So equip yourself to do so. And then, last thing I will say, this is a true story. You don't even know. Okay, speaking of equipping good people to speak well in the world to accomplish good stuff in the final chapter. And then editors eventually had me take it out because I wanted to make the book more universal to more people. In the final chapters, I said that coaching Andrew Yang was one of the great professional privileges of my life. Yeah, there you go. Buddy, this is not because I have not coached more high profile people than you. I have. I'm not saying that to brag, but rather the reason I say that, why I wrote that sentence is because of what you're actually trying to do, which is someone in a high profile position who is trying to accomplish good stuff in a variety of ways. So trying to help you in that way marginally improve is a huge privilege.

That means a lot, man. And I certainly feel indebted to you for my superpowers. May I use them for good, not evil. Michael Chad Hepner. Dispensing gamma radiation for our ability to deliver messages to the world. Dear McDonald's, your breakfast menu fire tens across the board. I could be happy with anything, even though I order the same thing every time.

Thanks for not judging me.

I'll try something new next time. Maybe score a two for five dollar.

Deal on a sausage McMuffin with egg and more.

Limited time only.

Price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer single item at regular price.

It means a lot. I mean, you and I have been through a lot together through the campaign and thereafter. And you've always wanted to help good people make good things happen in ways big and small. And this book is a huge emblem of that. I mean, what's funny is like, you know, the theme really is the more other focused you are, the more effective you are as a communicator. And the book itself is very other focused on your part because you're clearly just trying to take what you've learned and convey it to people.

Thank you. It's funny. I'll give a shout out to my agent, Bird level at uta. Thanks, Bird. The reason I'm saying thank you is the subtitle of the book, how to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life. He was pretty adamant about those last four words. He's like, we have to get this out of people's idea that this is about public speaking. Because business money. That's right. Make that rain boardroom conversations. No, I mean, we say words, you know, five to 10,000 times a day, depending on the day. And the idea, of course, is to help people do that a little bit better, no matter what those words are or what situations they're saying them in. And I mean, I was joking that I hope people read one chapter. Maybe not the whole book, but one chapter. Or read the whole book if you want to, but read one chapter for sure. And so even as an example, there's a chapter on navigating nerves that I hope and I think will be tremendously liberating for a lot of people who, you know, have spent a life stuck in some cycle of self judgment and self critique and thought suppression, thinking they can actually never do some of these things. And in fact, they can.

They can.

Yeah.

It's something you can get better at. You should really try to get better at it because it will help you lead a better life. Don't say Michael Chad Hepner how to communicate more effectively to live a better life. So obviously buying the book is one thing, but if someone wants to keep up with you, home in on some of your learnings, how can they best do so?

Yeah, sure. Well, you can go to the site. It's simple to remember. Don'tsayum.com, just spelled like you would think. Don't say U M for those of.

You who don't know how is spelled.

You can also check me out on LinkedIn. So that's just Michael Chad Hepner on LinkedIn. My company's name is GK Training, so you can go to gktraining.com and find all of our socials and that sort of thing there.

Also, just so everyone knows, this is coming out on my 50th birthday. And so if, if you want to give me a present, do something nice for someone in your life or yourself, but just try and celebrate the fact that we have a lot to be grateful for. I certainly am doing that every day and really appreciate everyone who's been with us through this journey.

You know what, by the way, let me just chime in there, because that's not just a birthday message. It's completely oriented to the book too. Because if you actually take to heart that humans are at their best as communicators when we're other focused. And being other focused unlocks our best presence, essentially what you're inviting people to do, to go focus on someone else in some way, give some sort of attention or gift or gratitude to somebody else. So, yes. And maybe not even on Andrew Yang's 50th birthday, but on every day of the year.

It's my birthday every day, people. Well, congratulations, my friend, on the book. It's a great achievement. It's going to improve many people's lives. I'll see you at the book party.

Sounds good. Thanks, Andrew.