Escaping the Two-Party Trap: A Blueprint for Change

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This week on the Andrew Yang podcast.

You talk about this stuff a lot. It's one of the places where it's a passion point for both you and I. I don't think we should be forced to fit into one of two boxes. It's something that the founders warned us about. All of them in one way or another, said watch out for factionalism. And here we are, weaker as a nation, weaker on the world stage, weaker on every issue because. Because Democrats and Republicans oftentimes spend more time fighting each other than they do actually trying to solve anyone's.

It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast fellow Brown University graduate and Democratic candidate for governor of the great state of Iowa, Rob Sand. Welcome, Rob.

How you doing, Andrew?

I was commenting. You look great. The trail is agreeing with you. So you and I spent time together when I was running for president. I joked that I went to Iowa 25 times and so I feel, you know, like a lot of affection for the state. And I remember running for president during the summer in Iowa, going to the state fair, crisscrossing. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of it's a great place to live and raise a family, as you're doing, but it's also a great place to campaign.

Yeah, it's fun. I think Iowans, in part because of the caucus tradition, have a level of interest in politics that you don't often see and they're willing to come out and talk to people and listen to them and kind of give them a shake, give them a fair shake. And I've been doing a lot of Iowa elected officials will do the 99 county tour. I do 100 stops, so I call it the 100 town hall tour. And the idea there is that way I can say that I'm the hardest working elected official in the state of Iowa. So I share your affinity for terrible dad jokes, too.

What are you saying? What are you saying, Rob?

I'm just being honest. I've always promised you honesty.

Really? You promised that to the people of Iowa. So you are the only statewide elected Democrat. I want to say, how the heck did you pull that trick? And I want to talk about Iowa and the fact that it was a swing state, voted for Barack Obama, the general, I believe that was 2008.

And then 12 and 12.

Look at that. Not that long ago.

Yeah.

And then since then, it has become quite red. I'd say it's plus nine red. And yet you have pulled a very rare trick of being a Democrat that I got elected auditor general statewide.

You bet. You bet. And I think it's, I think it's pretty straightforward, I think, to me, and I think you'll appreciate this, I think you understand this because you're on the same side of this divide as I am. A lot of Iowans don't think in terms of red versus blue or Democrats versus Republicans. Their focus is more insider versus outsider or establishment versus, like, change agent. And they see that politics are broken. They see that a lot of people who are of politics are doing politics, not public service. And so a lot of times I ask people, please reconsider the idea that Iowa has changed because fundamentally, we're actually one of the slowest changing states in the country. And what we should be, what we should be asking ourselves is really, how are Barack Obama and Donald Trump the same? And the answer to that very simply is they are change agents. You know, Obama in, in 08 well, in 2007. But he took on the Hillary Clinton machine, you know, at a lot of time when a lot of people were saying like, oh, this is, this is her nomination. And then Donald Trump came in in 16, and the entire Republican establishment was like, watch out for him. He, he, he's, he's different. Right. And their base looked at that and they were like, great, thanks for the tip. We're with him. So I just, to me, that goes back to the idea of like, you know, my success breeds from the fact that people see me also as being an outsider as being a public servant, as being someone who sees the ways in which the two choice system actually destroys us and tears us apart. And they appreciate that because they see it as a hallmark of honesty. Honestly, because you're willing to talk about it.

Yeah. You're an open primaries guy, a democracy reform guy is one reason why I've donated to your campaign. I'm supportive of it. Also, you're a good human. You hail from the greatest universe in the land. I'm just kidding. Maybe I'm not kidding. Who knows? Yeah, I want to double click on this because I think it's really important and I'm going to share with you my perspective on it. So check it out. You rewind to 2008, 2012 and you have a bunch of Midwestern states that are purple and bellwether E, including Iowa, which you know very well. Ohio, it used to be. So goes Ohio, So goes the U.S. that's right. Missouri was even like, you know, a slightly right leaning swing state.

And these are states now that some.

People listening to this are like, wait a minute, you know, Ohio is a swing state if you're old enough, you remember that Iowa was a swing state. Even Missouri was contested. And these states have all gone pretty significantly rightward. And I have a number of thoughts on this. I mean, part of it is that these are Midwestern economies. They're heavily manufacturing or agriculture. And the Democratic Party has shifted away from unfortunately some, some constituencies and policies that are centered around those industries that they're also majority white. Iowa, very significantly so. And the Democratic Party demoted Iowa for from its first in the line caucuses, which is why I spent so much time there. And one of the arguments that was made, in my opinion, somewhat disingenuously was, hey, the demographics of Iowa aren't representative. And so we're going to put South Carolina first.

And yet they wanted to keep New Hampshire first, even though New Hampshire is actually whiter than Iowa.

Yes. And oh, coincidentally, South Carolina voted for Joe Biden, thanks to Jim Clyburn. So we're going to reward them.

But.

Then we're going to make the case that it's for empowering black voters. And then it came out in a recent book, Common Sense was like, yeah, we kind of did it to protect Joe and then use the black voter thing as a rationale. But there has been this shift from the national Democratic Party away from some of the Midwestern agricultural states. And I will say for me personally, I think it's messed up that they've essentially said, hey, we're going to trade Iowa, Ohio and the like for states that are, you know, quote, unquote, diversifying, like Georgia or Nevada or Sunbelt states. And look, I'm all for, you know, like. Like, trying to grow, but, like, what I really disliked about it was that having spent months in Iowa, I met hundreds or even thousands of Democrats of Iowa who had been very, very good, active members of the party for years and years and years. And it, to me, it was like, hey, like, you're taking people who have been staunch party loyalists and essentially throwing them under the bus and disempowering them because of demographics. Like, question mark. I mean, like, wouldn't another approach be, hey, guys, like, why are we losing so bad in Iowa, Ohio, Missouri? Like, why don't we actually try that?

We actually go and listen. And I think that's a tremendous piece of the problem. And I don't. You know, I've actually. I've never been to the dnc. I don't really consider myself a party person. I can't really speak to that. Like, my bottom line is I'm a guy who's running for office in my home state, in the state I love and wanting to do right for the entire state of Iowa. And I don't even fundamentally understand why we have to be Democrats or Republicans. Right. You talk about this stuff a lot. It's one of the places where it's a passion point for both you and I. I don't think we should be forced to fit into one of two boxes. It's something that the founders warned us about. All of them, in one way or another, said, watch out for factionalism. And here we are, weaker as a nation, weaker on the world stage, weaker on every issue because Democrats and Republicans oftentimes spend more time fighting each other than they do actually trying to solve anyone's problems. And they do that because the system is broken. Because the system says, hey, all you gotta do is convince everybody that the other person is the greater of the two evils. And then, you know, you don't have to solve anybody's problem. They'll just vote for you because they feel like they're trapped.

Yeah, yeah.

It's, like, not exactly inspiring, you know.

No, no. I mean, half the reason why people vote for one party is a dislike for the other party.

Yes.

At a certain point.

And so I think that's been a piece of my success here is I have always talked about that brokenness in 2018. So a piece of this, too is, you know, prior to running for state auditor. I was assistant attorney general, so chief public corruption prosecutor in the state. And I talked about the fact that I prosecuted Democrats and Republicans. I as auditor, we have gone after Democratic office holders when that is the right thing to do. We have defended Republican office holders when that is the right thing to do. And the easiest way to summarize this, I think, is my politics is much more about not bluer or redder, but truer and better. It's the idea that more than anything else, this system actually pulls us apart, divides us and makes it harder to solve our problems, and that we shouldn't center our government, our effort to solve our problems that we face together on a system that inherently tears us apart from each other.

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Amen. You've been a staunch anti corruption guy regardless of which party was, you know, like doing the malfeasance. One thing I like about you too Rob, and this is sort of, you know, so we went to Brown different eras. I'm a little bit older than you and I think you had a choice between a very conventional Brown grad type path of going to, you know, very high end law school and then probably winding up at a high end law firm frankly. Like I did because like I went to law school at Columbia and then went to a law firm that I left very quickly, entered startup world. But you had that kind of choice and diverted yourself directly back to Iowa because you always had in mind to be of service and raise a Family there.

You know, it's funny because when I left. So I grew up in a small town in northeast Iowa, Decorah. Did you ever get there, by the way?

Oh, yeah, man. I went everywhere.

I mean, it is like the easiest way to my heart is for people to be like, oh, I've been to Decorah. I'm going to Decor. Like, my hometown is the best. I am not unhappy living in Des Moines. But every time I go home, I'm like, man, why don't I live here? But when I, when I, when I left, when I, when I went out there, my attitude is very open minded. I. I liked growing up in Decorah. I have never lived anywhere else. How can I say what I'll want to do later in my life, not having ever tried anything else? But yeah, it was, it was. I didn't have to get all the way through all four years to know I wanted to be back home again. And so when it came down to it, for law school, you know, we've got a great, well respected public law school right here at the University of Iowa. And I was able to go there with a scholarship, which was great because I wanted to do public service work. And that doesn't pay that well for lawyers. And so that, to me, was. It was something I was excited to do. A lot of people looked at me and they're like, oh, really? You're gonna, you're gonna go there? I was like, well, this is where I want to be. This is a place that is home to me. And that's the most important part.

Yeah, I think you turned down Harvard. And there was like a Harvard joke I used to tell, which is, brown will fix the world that Harvard broke. But one thing I like about, I love that, I liked about campaigning in Iowa. It looks like you just skip the Harvard piece. But one of the things I like about Iowa is that it's kind of the same experience. I don't know how else to put it where. So it's flat topographically, but it also feels kind of flat in that, like, every family is going to go to the same park, same bear, same event. Like, you know, there's.

You don't have the same kind of division for, for socioeconomic class or something like that, you mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're always going to be heading to the same things. Yeah. You know, you are an exception in many ways. I mean, like your, your eschewing the, you know, Harvard law degree is unusual. I think you were a Louis Vuitton model for a minute. Is that accurate.

Not Louis Vuitton, but similar, similar stuff. Yeah, I spent a little bit of time in undergrad doing that. It was a job I had. It certainly was cleaner than catching chickens. That was my first job.

From cleaning chickens to fashion photography to law school to public servant. And you're also a Democrat, even though I know you don't consider yourself a partisan party member, you're just an Iowan, but you're technically a Democrat who bow hunts.

Yes. Grew up my bow hunting. My dad taught me how to do it. We were, we were gun owners my whole life. He had a BB gun in my hands when I was a very little kid, shooting pop cans, making them pee. And that was something, that was a big, big part of my upbringing. Just spending time outdoors, going fishing, really anything to get out there and enjoy God's creation. And that, and that to me is a, a big piece of this, of my success too is I think people are surprised to hear. And if, and for people who want to learn more about me, it's robsann.com QR code behind me there. But most people, I think if you, if you said like, okay, here's a candidate who was born and raised in a town of 7,000 people and you have to drive an hour even to get to a town of 50,000, so very rural area, who, who is in church every Sunday, who likes to hunt and fish, and who owns guns, including handguns. I mean, what percentage of people would say, oh, that's a Republican, that candidate? I mean, 80, 90%, you know, it'd be a huge number. But all that is a part of what I grew up with. And my, my parents weren't really, they weren't, they were in registered independents. When I was growing up, I remember them voting for Democrats and for Republicans. They were much more focused on community service. They were both in the helping professions. My mom was like the county chair for Habitat for Humanity, you know, and so to me it was always, well, this political system is what we're in, but that doesn't mean that we have to love it. We can, we can, we can protest it at the same time that we are prisoners of it. You know, we don't have to just, we can, we can participate in it and still protest it at the same time. It's sort of what we're stuck with. But we should work on changing it because at the end of the day, again, I think a lot of times there's just too many folks out there that have a knee jerk reaction to anything just because it comes from either the leader of their party or the leader of the other party. And we can't meet our potential. We can't. We can't meet our potential as a state until we change that kind of thing. And I'm a big believer in that idea. And I think it'd be good for the country, too. We just need more people, more elected officials, where their incentive is actually to focus on common sense and what most people want.

You know what, Rob, you kind of look like Hawkeye. Has anyone told you that? No, no, he just did do like a entire Hawkeye routine. Shoot an ad, hang a target, shoot an arrow through it. And being like, that's what I'm gonna do to corruption.

But it occurs to me of Joni Ernst's shooting, shooting Obamacare ad.

Oh, shoot, I didn't even know about that ad. But the, so the, the juxtaposition, though, it's like people think about, you know, senior Democrat, and you are the only statewide elected Democrat in Iowa, Senior Democrat Bo Hunter. Like, those two things don't go together anymore because most Democratic areas are skew, kind of urban at this point. You know, there's like this, this educated component too. And you're obviously very highly educated. You just happen to be from a place with a certain culture. I will tell the story. This isn't about Decora necessarily, but I was touring Iowa on a 17 stop bus tour, and there was one stop that had, I don't know, maybe 12 people. It was like the throes of the campaign. And then someone on my team was like, no, you don't understand. 12 is a great number for this town. Like 12 is like 3% of the town or whatever it was. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I was always good natured about all those things, but I went to some very, very small towns where, like, you know, like, having a few people show up was a big deal because, you know, like, people have lives.

Yeah. No, that's one of the things that I think makes this very real is, you know, I always remember Martin o' Malley had an event. There was a snowstorm. He was like, well, we're going to stick to the schedule. And one guy came out and so he had a conversation with one guy. And I think that's a good test for people who want to run him for office is, you know, is one person still worth your time? How do you react to that kind of a situation? It can be humbling for people, and I think that's good for them. And it's One of the reasons that I love Iowa, you know, people are just like, oh yeah, like, well, that, that's great that you're a U.S. senator and blah, blah, blah. But I'm going to. And it's nice that you called me on my personal phone, but I want to, you know, make sure I listen to all the other candidates first and give everybody a fair shot before I make a, make a decision about who I'm committing to. But a lot of that, too, you know, I go back to this. Like, I think that's part of the, I mean, part of the reason that I'm in this race is just because I feel like you and I are sitting here swapping stories about small town Iowa, talking about the heart of this state. And yet state government in Iowa has, has become so disconnected, I think, from what the state of Iowa is all about. We. So it's been, you know, we all know the phrase, right? Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Iowa has now put a time frame on that. It took 10 years of one party control to get to the point where we are now, which is our economy is 49th in the country according to the Trump administration, 50th according to WalletHub, but our growth rate for cancer incidences is number one in the country.

That's not what you want.

And Andrew, they spent time gutting the auditor's office ability to find misspent money. They have a $900 million hole in the state budget, a record budget deficit. And they, despite all of these problems, all of them entirely foreseeable, they literally, after we found a record amount of misspent money in my first term as state auditor, passed a law that makes it harder for us to find misspent money. Like they're putting their time and their energy and effort into things that serves this tiny number of insiders and special interest groups. It just totally leaves Iowans behind. They have just become completely, I think, disconnected from what the state culture as a whole really is. And, and that's what I want to do. I want to. Well, I want to be a governor for all. I mean, I want to restore state government to a place where everybody can feel listened to and everybody can feel like they're a part of this state.

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Some people listening to this right now are thinking, okay, this Rob guy seems cool, he seems smart, he seems principled. Yang seems to like him. But he's running for governor in a state that as far as I can tell, has gone pretty red. I'm gonna put a number on it. Let's call it plus nine red. Why the heck would I think that he has a chance to win this race and that if I were to dedicate some of my hard earned time or money, that it wouldn't just be, you know, like a feel good campaign that ends in a disappointing fashion. And then number two, hey, if I listen to Yang, what I think is that the two party system not doing such a great job. Rob clearly has some similar thoughts on this and has managed to compete in part by trying to get beyond the polarization. But if I'm just a democracy reform person, what is Rob going to do in Iowa that might excite me in terms of open primaries, final four ranked choice voting, anything where we can be like, ooh, that there is like a structural argument to be made.

Yeah. So I think number one in terms of, you know, the idea of winability, again, you know, people think, oh, Iowa, it's red. But we have continued actually to have Democrats lose the closest races in the country here. We lost literally the closest congressional race in American history in 2020, the closest congressional defense of 2022 in 2022, and then the closest loss for a red to Blue candidate in 2024. So even though Republicans have been winning most of the elections in Iowa, a lot of them have been by close margins. Here's the other thing. I'll say I've won two elections, I'm two for two. So if you think a candidate can win, you might want to look at their past and decide whether or not that is instructive. And I've been able to win when a lot of other folks around me have not been able to do that.

I just want to back up that point for you. I think that there's going to be a lot of energy from that side that's irked at the Trump administration and overreaches. This is going to be a November 26th race, so it's non presidential. But if you think about all the people that are going to come out to vote, generally speaking, the side that is out of power tends to, like, get the energy because it's like, oh, man, we got to turn this around. I'm getting really upset at the headlines, the way things are going. And so if you believe that Iowa actually, like, can be competitive, you're a candidate who's won twice statewide, which is remarkable as a Democrat, only one currently in office. But I think you're going to have, like a good amount of energy and momentum behind you in 26, because there's going to be something of a blue wave aspect.

And you, you may be right. You know, we're, we're, I don't know how many months, I don't count the days like a lot of candidates do, but we're a long ways away from that day. But I think your other, your other piece on that, your other question in terms of the democracy reform, look, I think the vast majority of people understand that the two system, the two choice system is broken. And that at the end of the day, you know, what I like to tell people is if you can make it out of the toothpaste aisle alive, then you can handle a ballot where you're offered more than two realistic options for someone you can vote for that also can win the race. And when that change happens anywhere, it's good for everywhere in the country. True, because all of a sudden there's common sense, focused people who are getting through that system to get elected to go spend time in Washington, D.C. who are much more focused on actually public service and doing what is best for everybody, as opposed to looking at some tiny little sliver of whether it's the Democratic base or the Republican base and trying to serve those people. And that's what we need more of to make things function in D.C. cut through the gridlock and get back to common sense and people working together.

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So, Rob, which reforms have you come out for? Because I know you've come out for some version or package.

In Iowa, if I had my druthers, it'd be open primary with something with like, you know, final four. And then I like the idea of approval voting rather than ranked choice voting.

Approval works.

Yeah. Well, it's also, it's very easy for everybody to understand, right? Here are four candidates. Vote for all of them that you approve of.

Yeah.

Whoever has the most people who votes for them wins the race. Period. Fargo, North Dakota does it. They seem to like it up there, and it just is. It's very common sense focused. And I think probably a lot of the folks that, you know, tune in for your show know how this works. But the bottom line is it breeds civility. Right. Because if it's Rob sand versus Andrew Yang in this kind of voting, I should just tell people that you're a terrible human being and that's going to help me win. But if it's in approval voting, well, and there's a couple of other people running, all of a sudden I want your folks to think nicely of me because if I can get maybe 25% of them to give me an approval vote instead of 15, that increases my odds of winning. And so all of a sudden my incentive, even if I'm cynical, is to actually be nice, just to be nice and to emphasize areas of agreement as opposed to emphasizing areas of disagreement. It's so simple.

Approval voting solves a lot of the same problems that ranked choice voting does. And I'm a fan, you know, I'm for any modern voting system. And if I were to adopt open primaries and approval voting, it would be very, very beneficial. And I think people would sense your sincerity because it would actually help a candidate like you. And, you know, various figures tend to do things that help people, you know, like them. It's one reason why a Lot of folks on both sides of the aisle tend to be averse to reform because they've won in a current system. And then after you're in, then you want the moats to stay deep.

Yeah, no, that's right. Well, everybody else had to. I had to do it this way. So everyone else should have to do it this way too, right? Yeah. Which is just a terrible. A terrible way to go through life. This was the worst experience I ever had. And so everyone else should have to feel it too.

I think you have a really fascinating campaign and chance to win, Rob. I think the people of Iowa know, you know, what you're about to. I think there will be an appetite for a change after 10 years of Republican rule in Iowa that has been, you know, not. Not super awesome on multiple fronts. You know, there's an insularity, too, when you have a lack of competition, the party in charge to become kind of self dealing, which I think you are seeing in Iowa.

I have a great story for you to that. To that regard. Right. I mean, there's the self dealing. There's gutting our ability to find misspent money. There's doubling the pay for the contract for the company that runs our new school vouchers program, even though they're doing nothing else for Iowans. But I actually went and spoke. I did a town hall with a Republican group, just a citizen or bunch of. Bunch of Iowans up in o' Brien County. As you. As you know, in Iowa, all the town names that look like another place in the world, we pronounce differently. So Madrid is Madrid, Peru is Pirou, and there's a town in Iowa pronounced Gaza, G a Z A. And so the Gaza Patriots had me up, invited me to come out. I said, absolutely happy to talk to you. Did a town hall, took questions. When they announced that they were going to have me come and talk to them, the Iowa Republican Party called them up and read them the riot act. For what? For. For having a conversation with a statewide elected official that belongs to the opposite party. We're not supposed to talk to each other anymore.

Yeah, that's. That's not good.

This is exactly the kind of mindset this. This corrupted mindset that you own these voters that is exactly symptomatic of the. Of the system that we have right now, where they are so entrenched here that they are just absolutely willing to tell Iowans what they're supposed to do, as though those voters belong to them and they don't have free will, which I think most People would find un American and offensive.

So did the Gaza crew have you anyway?

Yeah, they sure did. And then at the beginning of the event, Andrew, they told everybody that they had gotten that phone call. They let everybody know.

And after they spent time with you, they were like, you know what? I may vote for him, I may not vote for him, but I'm fine with him. Probably what they thought.

And I. And I think that's half the battle and the system of the lesser of two evils. If you can get people to be like, yeah, he's not evil. Way to go.

Yeah, you're gonna get a lot of votes that way. So if people want to help you in your race, tell their friends in Iowa, maybe donate a buck or two. How can they best do so?

Anybody who's interested. Robsand.com give is a great place to do it. And follow me on pretty much any social media channel at Robsand ia. I think on TikTok, it's TikTok. It's Rob Sand, Iowa. But you'll find me. Look for.

Look for Rob Sand. He may be the next governor of the state of Iowa. And if you win, my friend, I dare say that the state will be in much better hands, less corrupt hands, and you'll drive a lot of value and do a lot of good. I wish you a lot of luck in your campaign and maybe I will somehow see you in the midst. In the. In the course of this campaign.

I'd love that. Good to see you right now.

My pleasure, Rob. And thank you for running and for stepping up. Thanks for having me.