Fighting for Families in a Divided America

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This week on the Andrew Yang Podcast.

It'S hard to be here and actually not become less partisan. It's you end up being less partisan, you end up thinking in a less partisan way because you start seeing and interacting with these people that you might otherwise see as figureheads on TV or on cable news or whatever. A lot of the members of Congress here still do want to get things done. They do want to accomplish things. And so if you're willing to be open minded about it, it does make you a lot more positive. And I wish that more people could see that from outside of dc.

It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast for the very first time, somehow, the head of Humanity Forward, the co founder of American Policy Ventures, someone who's been a charter member of the Yang Gang since the early days of the presidential campaign, Liam Declaiblo. Welcome, Liam.

It's so great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Even though it's been a long time coming, it really feels like such an honor.

Oh, that's kind. Because you and I do at this point go back seven or eight years or I mean, the years are starting to amount. So for someone who's listening to this, they think Humanity Forward. That sounds familiar. So Humanity Forward is the organization that we kicked up in 2020 that was originally around poverty relief and then it kicked into Covid poverty relief and then has transitioned now into this very wholesome positive advocacy org in D.C. that put up a major victory earlier this year around the enhanced child tax credit or the return of the child tax credit. So when people hear Humanity Forward, they're like, wait, what was that again? That's what it is. It's the organization that was founded based on the words of the Onion, where they said the American people hire lobbyists to fight for their interests. So how do you describe Humanity Forward if someone asks you?

Yeah, well, exactly as you said, you know, Humanity Forward kicked off in 2020 after your campaign, and, you know, among other things, to spearhead the Ideas Forward. Over the last four or five years, my goal with Humanity Forward has been to try to translate ideas into action on Capitol Hill. And so I describe Humanity Forward's work as doing bipartisan advocacy for policy ideas like the Child Tax Credit, which has been Humanity Forward's biggest focus since 2021. And like you said, it actually, you know, this work is, you got to put in a lot of time, but when the wins happen, it makes it all worth it. And it was great to see a big step forward from Congress on the child tax credit in the summer of this year.

So I'd urge if you haven't heard the Child Tax Credit, I wrote a post about it called Fewer Poor Kids, which really sums it up. But what it is, is it's money in the hands of parents that make less than a certain amount of money. It's generally per child. And the measure that Humanity Forward helped get through Congress amounted to something like $80 billion that would go through toward improving the lives of maybe 65 million children. So it was like a very, very big win for those of us who think that kids should not grow up in poverty.

Absolutely. And the Child Tax Credit has had such a interesting story, and I think it's an example of how a policy can be perceived at different moments in time as being a Republican thing, being a Democratic thing, a conservative thing, a progressive thing. And the Child tax credit really kicked up. George H.W. bush talked about it. There was a version of it that was passed with Gingrich and with Clinton in the 90s in 2017 under the tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Republicans expanded it under Trump in his first term. And then what really sort of started politicizing the child tax credit in recent memory was 2021. So in 2021, you, you know, listeners will recall, viewers will recall that that was the. There was a succession of three big packages, legislative packages passed by Congress to deal with the economic fallout from COVID And so There was the CARES act in spring of 2020. There was the initial bill, bipartisan passage. Then there was an end of year package in December of 2020 that was also bipartisan. And then there was a package that was passed, the American Rescue Plan, that was passed by the Biden administration in a functionally very partisan way in early 2021. And that included a temporary expansion of the child Tax credit, which while positive for advocates of the child tax credit at that time for that calendar year. The problem was that because it was passed with Democratic votes, it started to be perceived in Washington, here in D.C. as a very progressive idea or as a Democratic policy idea, even though it was something that Republicans were a big part of starting. And so the last three years, from 2022 till now till 2025, has been a process of trying to depolarize the conversation around this. Around this issue and help everyone to realize that they have a stake in wanting to work on improving this policy, even if it's for different reasons on different sides of the aisle.

Yeah. For the record, I loved the 2021 expansion of the child tax credit that reduced child poverty in the US from something like 11% to maybe 5.5%. So it cut child poverty in half. I talked to religious leaders at that time who said they actually sensed in their congregations that people were less stressed out and were doing better. So, I mean, it was monumentally positive, in my opinion. The fact that it ran afoul of our politics is super sad, but it's great that you managed. We managed to convey to folks that this wasn't a blue or red thing. This was just like a family thing or an American thing. So if you're watching this on video, you're thinking, how old is this guy? If. If Andrew and him have been working together for seven plus years or so, they're trying to do some math in their heads. So now that we've illustrated some of what humanity forward and you have been working on this last number of years, what is the origin story? And I can kick off my version of it, which is pretty freaking funny. So we declare in February 2018, Andrew Yang says the robots are coming. And then you show up on our doorstep.

I've got it right here. War on normal people.

Yeah, War on normal people comes out that spring 2018. And then you somehow show up on our doorstep saying, hey, I want to work on this campaign. Like, so at that point, you were very young. I mean, you're still not exactly old. No offense. But what was it that drew you to the Andrew Yang presidential campaign back in 2018?

It's an amazing origin story for me. I am so appreciative that, you know, that you took me in this random kid showing up. Yes. Literally at the doorstep of the. Of the campaign, which I remember emailing with you about it, sending you that cold message, and you responded very quickly and said, sure, come by and meet at our campaign headquarters, only to find out that that was your mom's apartment. And it was quite the experience and it was quite the day. But I remember being there and getting to meet you for the first time and the very small team that was there at the time as well, to talk through what your vision was for why you were doing this and why you wanted to run for president and the campaign and everything. And I think what drew me to it was something fresh, something different. You know, I think we all have felt different versions of this over the last 10 plus years of our politics, that things are shifting. You know, we maybe don't know where they're shifting to and how exactly things will shake out, but we feel the ground shifting beneath our feet. And so there was something that really drew me to the fact that, you know, instead of working on a campaign for a more established, well known candidate, to work for someone who was a bringing fresh new ideas to the table about the future of our country and where that ground shifting might be taking us, number one. And then number two, I thought it was really fun to work for someone that most people didn't know. You know, I thought that seemed like a really amazing project. And it was one of those things, I'm not sure now, looking back, how you felt about it, but certainly for me it felt like for those first 12 to 18 months, it felt like the kind of thing that could have, you know, ended at any point and it could have been like each month could be the last month. And it just kept going and ended up going far beyond certainly my expectations. And it was an amazing, amazing experience.

We fell short of mine though. Liam. No, I'm kidding.

Yeah, exactly. But I just want to say that this might seem like a little bit of a tangent, but for anyone who is listening to this, Andrew, you know, this is one of my, one of my big, one of my big impassioned personal beliefs. I ended up, you know, dropping out of high school and college just because of being impatient to do other things. And. But that is all to say, I bring that up to say that even without the, like, conventional qualifications that, you know, most people have when they show up asking for a job somewhere, you know, you, Andrew, and the team like took me on and took me in, which I'm so appreciative of till this day. And I just want to say to anyone who's listening to this, who might be a student or a parent of a student, that there really is like nothing to be lost by just cold emailing people. There's nothing to be lost by just showing up and seeing if, you know, will they Let you volunteer, then see if they'll let you work there. Send people a cold email, ask them if they'll get coffee for any opportunity or anything that you're interested in. There is such a. And I've seen. I feel like I've gotten more animated about this being in D.C. because now I'm in a position where people who are younger than me are, you know, emailing me and reaching out to me or their parents sometimes are reaching out to me, being like, hey, can such and such get an internship at your organization? And. And I feel like there's such a fear of doing the unconventional thing and just follow the conventional track. And they apply to an internship program and it's like, if you want to do something, just reach out. And the worst case is that they don't respond. They will always think that you're at least plucky and taking initiative, which is a positive thing, even if it doesn't turn into something good. In this case, obviously it really worked out for me, so it turned out great. But getting to work on the campaign, but I just, I encourage other people to not feel like they're just trapped in what opportunities are laid out for them by their college or by their school, but to just go for stuff that they want to do.

Well, certainly I agree. And you were very plucky, Liam, but you were also very smart. I mean, your initial email that I remember was very well written and thoughtful and you were clearly willing to put in the work. I mean, there's like something of a universal human principle where if someone's like, hey, I want this experience, can you give it to me? Then you, like, it's like, I'm not trying to help you necessarily. Like, I have stuff I'm trying to get done. Whereas if you invert that and say, okay, I did a lot of work and research and even reaching out to you and I'm willing to travel you on my own dime and show up and put time in and prove myself, then folks will be much more receptive. I mean, I remember being impressed by a level of communication and think, okay, young, smart, energetic, plucky. What's the worst that could happen in terms of at least giving him the time of day? And then you were also just, you know, one benefit of youth too is like, you're not exactly super pricey. You know, you wear it like, oh, the six figure contract, like, give you my opinion or whatnot. I'm going to give you a bit of recognition for something that you uniquely pushed us on, which was 2018, we're hanging around, and you're like, you need to go on tour. And then I said, that's dumb. Absolutely no one is going to show up to that tour. It's going to be a waste of time. Like, who wants to tour to nobody? And then you said, that is the point. You must tour to nobody. So that when you do catch fire later, there'll be all these shots of you just going around and. And talking to small crowds. Plus, you'll refine the message. You'll figure a lot of stuff out. And then I heard this, and I was like, oh, my God, he's right. We have to plan the tour for nobody, which was the first humanity, first tour. And shout out to anyone who actually attended that tour, because you were a very, very early adopter. But it was this kid, Liam, the Clive Blow, who was like, hey, I think that we should get you out on the road. And that first tour went to. I certainly remember Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore. There might have been a few other places. Zach with the button driver. Cleveland.

Cleveland. Iowa City.

Iowa City, of course. How could I forget Iowa? I mean, come on.

Goodness gracious. Yeah. No, no, that. I mean, you're. This is. We got to move past this segment of the conversation here. You're just making me bashful. I mean, you know, that's. It's all credit to you and the team for, like, you know, again, like, you know, being willing to take someone in and have someone join the team and then let me test out a few wacky ideas, and plenty of them didn't work out. That one happened, too, but it was an amazing experience the whole ride through. And then to see the whole team grow from 5 to 200 or whatever it became by the end, it was pretty amazing.

Yeah. We'll leave out all of your bad ideas. I'm kidding.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

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Yeah, it was. I was there for the last 90 days and getting to work with and manage an amazing team that grew to be about 90 on the team there for that home stretch. It was an amazing experience. The people of Iowa, like everyone says, every person who's done campaigns in Iowa, they all say, oh, people of Iowa are so amazing. It's true. They really are just the sweetest, most normal people in every way and love the process. Obviously the 2020, it seemed to mark the death knell of the Iowa caucus with how the results were. Yeah. The Democratic side of it. Thank you. The Democratic side of it was such a fiasco, but it was an amazing experience and it's just great to see how you build something like that in the heat of the moment and having. It's all the best stuff of the late nights and the early mornings and the team that's been in the office for 20 hours at a time and is. Everyone's running around doing everything. And it was. Yeah, it was just. It was a treat to get to do it. And I felt like it's one of those things also where certainly you feel like after doing even something for a very, very short stint like that, it kind of puts you in a frame of mind where you're like, well, this was so stressful. If I. If, you know, you get through this, you can get through anything and you don't let regular jobs face you as much.

Yeah, certainly everything pales in comparison to the stresses of a presidential campaign down the stretch, that's for sure. So then the campaign ends and it's 2020. You then wind up leading humanity Forward. That then pivots. So you move to our Nation's capital, Washington, D.C. where you live now.

Yes.

And we started out with some money. Those of you who donated to humanity forward, thank you. And so you had a certain budget to work with and then you managed to find some incredibly wholesome lobbyists who actually like the idea of advocating for children, families. Like what? Because so for most people watching and listening to this first, lobbyist has a very bad connotation. Second, they may not love Washington dc. Third, they think that not much is constructive or able to get anything done. Now you've become something of a grizzled vet, though. You're a very young grizzled vet. But if you do the math, It's a solid five years between 2020 and 2025. So you've been there for over five years. For someone who wants to understand what the heck your day to day actually looks like and how you build an org like humanity forward, like, what has that story been? And to be honest, like, some of it's probably going to be news to me.

Absolutely. So it's Been a great ride. You know, I was in and out of D.C. sort of on and off in years prior when I was doing, working on the political campaign circuit. And being here and doing this job, it has completely changed my viewpoint just, just to say for a moment on partisanship and on my politics. And I think that there's a lot of things that you learn being here, of course, from what you expect to what you actually see when you're on the ground, when you're meeting with senators and members of Congress and chiefs of staff and you're working with and among and in the swamp, it's hard to be here and actually not become less partisan. You end up being less partisan, you end up thinking in a less partisan way because you start seeing and interacting with these people that you might otherwise see as figureheads on TV or on cable news or whatever, and you start interacting with them as human beings, as colleagues. And over time you just start like, yes, they're Democrats, yes they're Republicans. But ultimately, at least for me, the thing that I'm looking for, like when I'm interacting with a congressional staffer or a member of Congress, is are they a serious person that wants to actually accomplish things? And I will say, contrary to maybe what, again, what most people listening might expect, a lot of the members of Congress here still do want to get things done. They do want to accomplish things. And so it puts you in a totally different frame of mind in that I think if you're willing to be open minded about it, it does make you a lot more positive. And I wish that more people could see that from outside of D.C. but answer to your question about the day to day, we went exactly as you said, started the Humanity Forward advocacy operation. The child tax credit was sort of the obvious clear goal to focus on. And so that is why H F's focus has been so clearly on that. After I mentioned earlier about the expansion of the child tax credit in the American Rescue plan, that happened and then it expired, as you said, the politics weren't there to continue it. I do think it's really interesting that when people look at the arc of this policy over this five year period, that it was Democrats who failed to get a permanent expansion of this policy passed and Republicans who succeeded. I think it's quite interesting. It's counterintuitive to what most people would think would happen, but Democrats fell short. And then between 2022 and 2025 there was a big effort, not just by Humanity Forward, but by a bunch of organizations on the left. The center and the right, and a bunch of members of Congress who put in the work over the long haul to try to depolarize this issue, demonstrate how it could be important to both sides of the aisle. And then we knew, and many in D.C. knew, that there was going to be a big piece of tax related legislation that was likely going to be advanced or worked on and likely passed in calendar year 2025. And so what Humanity Forward focused on was doing the work of building coalitions on both sides of the aisle around the child tax credit to try to put it in a position that regardless of how the election shook out and who was in control of the White House, the Senate, the House, that it would have a good chance of getting done in that tax package. And we were just so pleased and so happy that in the OB3, as some in D.C. are calling it now, the one big beautiful bill in the Republican reconciliation tax bill was included a permanent expansion of the child tax credit and a permanent expansion of it that is tied to inflation. And so the child tax credit will rise in its amount automatically with the cost of living for the first time. And so it's really quite consequential because now Congress won't need to go back three years from now, five years from now, 10 years from now to keep passing bills to expand the child tax credit. It will go up automatically. There will be 23.8 million kids around the country who will directly benefit from this expansion. That was according to an analysis done by the Bipartisan Policy Center. And so it's a pretty big deal. And I do want to shout out one person in particular, which is Chairman Jason Smith, who is a congressman from Missouri, who chairs the, who's the Republican chair of the House Ways and Means Committee, which is handles tax policy in the House. He really went to bat for this idea and helped do a lot of the work of building support for it within the House Republican Conference that helped this to get done. And obviously many other, many, many other people worked on it as well. But I wanted to give him a particular shout out for his leadership on it. Then in terms of the day to day, what I'm focused on, what I'm thinking about in recent years has also expanded. So if people Recall back to 2022, there was a long list of bipartisan legislation that did pass in 2021 and 2022. There was the bipartisan infrastructure bill. There was the Chips and Science act, there was the bipartisan Safer Communities act that worked on gun safety and mental health. There was the Respect for Marriage Act. There was the Electoral Count Reform act, which helped standardize the processes by which we certify presidential elections. There was the PACT act for veterans. There were a bunch of other bills that all got passed in 2022. And so at Humanity Ford, I and our then head of government affairs, Paolo Mastrangelo, who had come from a lobbying background in corporate lobbying world and who we were able to recruit away from that to come lobby for the child tax credit, he and I were talking and realizing, like, look like there is a model of a way to bring both sides together to get legislation done. And we saw a lot of it happen, particularly in 2022. There was that spurt of all that activity. A lot of it came from the Senate where the so called bipartisan gangs would come together and negotiate issues and then bring those issues to the floor for a vote and have bills passing with 65, 70 votes with Republicans and Democrats joining together. And that's how you create the most durable policy. And so the idea that he and I had was what if we built an organization that was just specifically focused on trying to de risk and foster that kind of bipartisanship, that kind of pragmatic collaboration, regardless of the topic that it's focused on. And so in early 2023 we started this new organization, American Policy Ventures, focused on that objective and doing that across a broad range of issues, not just one topic. And so for me in my day to day, what that means is that I get to spend a lot of time and our team gets to spend a lot of time talking with members of Congress, talking with senior congressional staffers about the issues that they want to work on, about issues where they see possibilities for bipartisan collaboration, issues where they see interest in working across the aisle. And then what we try to do is try to help them be successful with that. And so I think that building that infrastructure, that apparatus that we did with American Policy Ventures really helped on the child tax credit, but it's helped on other issues as well. And now we're spending a lot of time, now that OB3, the big beautiful bill is done, we're spending a lot of time talking to members of Congress about what they want to work on next. Where do they see opportunities for both sides to work together? And. And even as terrible and as polarized as our politics might seem, I will tell people that there actually are a lot of things that people do want to work on, even if we don't hear about it in the news very much.

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Well, one thing I'm so proud of for humanity forward and for you and the team is that you guys are essentially pragmatic and non ideological about trying to get things done. It's like, look, want to work with me on this? Let's do it. That family in Arkansas doesn't really care how that check ended up arriving. They like care the check arrived. And there are some people who maintain various purity tests in various ways. Like, oh, if you're touching this and I can't do that. I mean there's like a lot of that in politics and media and social media. I mean one of the great ways to attack someone, either side is like, look at this person. Like they were at the same event as them. Like, you know, you can't trust them, can't trust them. So congratulations, you and the team by just saying, look, that stuff is not helping the average family. And so what now that the child tax credit has been cemented and you all are talking these members, like what else falls into this nonpartisan bipartisan zone that you can imagine getting through a very polarized Congress.

The team at American Policy Ventures has been talking to a lot of different members trying to talk to a big cross ideological mix. Conservative, progressive, moderate, Dem, Republican, House, Senate, everything. And there's a lot, you know, the way that I think about it is like an iceberg, you know, where there's the 10% of the iceberg that's above the surface of the water that we all see. And those are the issues that are being talked about on social media, that news channels are talking about that are the controversy of the day. The topics that we think are the entirety of our politics, but really only represent a small fraction of all the issues that actually matter and what can actually get done. So there's that 10%, but of course that means there's 90% that's under the surface of the water that nobody sees and very few pay attention to. But almost because it's under the surface of the water, it can escape some of the polarization and politicization that is affecting our political conversation in this country. And so that 90% is where like I want to focus my energy and I think more energy should be focused because that's where you can get Things done. Some examples of things that I think are in that category. One is a big one that should be getting a lot more media coverage right now, frankly, is housing. This is a topic, obviously you could be a Democrat, Republican. It's very important to people all around the country, in every state. And members of Congress have heard that message about how important that is. And there is a bill right now in Congress, in the Senate, called the Road to Housing Act. And Road to Housing is a. Not just a bipartisan bill, but it is so bipartisan and so broadly supported that it brought together one of the most unique coalitions I've seen working on something in recent memory. The bill came out of the Senate Banking Committee, which oversees housing policy. The Senate Banking Committee, for which the chair is Senator Tim Scott, Republican from South Carolina, and then the ranking member, Democrat lead, is Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democrat from Massachusetts. And so you have Tim Scott and Elizabeth Warren teaming up to work together on this housing bill. People who on most issues do not see eye to eye. And they got this Road to Housing bill passed out of the Senate Banking Committee unanimously, with every single. Every single senator, from the most progressive to the most conservative, all voting in favor of this bill to provide, to make sure housing is more available, more accessible, and in greater supply for people who need it and for whom it might be out of reach right now. And so I look at something like that and say, even without knowing the specifics, right. Even before looking into it and saying, wow, this is amazing that we can get Elizabeth Warren and Tim Scott and a group of other senators that are similarly ideologically divergent altogether working on something that they recognize is important for the country. My hope is that not only we can help get stuff like that across the finish line, but that more of that work can be celebrated. Because right now, you know, as you well know, and something you've talked about very eloquently over the last four years, our politics has gotten to the point where people aren't rewarded for that kind of serious work. They're rewarded for, you know, dunking on their opponents and using the halls of Congress as a place to live stream from, not as a place to legislate.

Okay, so you've got housing availability and affordability as one. Are there another couple of. Yeah, swings or opportunities?

A lot of great stuff. Childcare, big bipartisan issue. Senator Katie Britt and Tim Kaine, Alabama and Virginia, Republican, Democrat, are working together on that issue. Wildfire prevention, big topic for states members who are from states all across the West. As one example, Senator Tim Sheehy, the new Republican senator from Montana, and Alex Padilla, the Democrat from California, have been working together on that, as have a bunch of other members. Ship building, this is a big topic. America is way behind in our capacity to build ships. It's a national security problem. It's an economic problem. We are way behind. China, you know, we all talk about we need to make sure that America is competitive with China. This is one area where we are so dramatically falling behind. Todd Young, who's a Republican senator from Indiana, and Mark Kelly, who's a Democrat from Arizona, are teaming up to work on that with a bill called the Ships for America Act. And then one other one that I'll highlight, although I could come up with 10 more. One other one I'll highlight. The power of American science and American scientific research. There is bipartisan initiative being led right now by Senator Martin Heinrich, who's a Democrat from New Mexico, with Senator Mike Rounds, who's a senator Republican from South Dakota, called asap. It's a great acronym. Most of the acronyms that Congress comes up with for their bills are really terrible, but this is actually a good one. So the initiative is called asap, and it stands for American Science Acceleration Project. And the top line objective is to be sort of a bipartisan incubator for policy ideas, for legislation, for. For initiatives that can 10x the pace of American science by the year 2030, using AI and other emerging technologies as an accelerant. The two senators and their teams are working on developing the policy and the policy strategy that will flow from this initiative. But it's a great example of two people saying, hey, doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on. We all want American scientific research to lead the world on everything from national security applications to energy applications, health applications, and on down the list. And if there's something we can team up to do to make that happen, and by virtue of it being bipartisan, it's actually able to be durable and it's very unlikely to be repealed in a future Congress, then that's something we should do. And so all those examples are things that, you know are happening, and yet there's functionally zero attention paid to any of it. And unless you're sort of here and living it every day the way that our team is, you're not really going to end up knowing about it or hearing about it.

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People would imagine it's like, oh yeah, those aren't really headline grabbers, you know, in the same way. I mean, even unlike housing and childcare, you might think so, but then obviously whatever you do is going to be somewhat incremental and additive. I mean, you know, the, the example right in front of us is the child tax credit. The fact that Republicans established it in perpetuity and pegged it to inflation. Zero headlines about that, even though, you know, like that's much better than the alternative, which was zero, because I think the child tax credit was going to actually zero out. In the absence of any legislation. We have just like a, such a, like a short attention span where the news cycle will just go like this, that, this, that. And none of the issues you named are sexy enough probably. But then I guess that's the point, which is like you can be like, hey guys, we don't need to put you above the waterline where someone might yell at you. We can just like get something done that's substantive.

And that's the thing is, right is like these members of Congress, right? If you're a U.S. senator or a House member, you fought like hell to get into these jobs. You know, like campaigning for Congress is hard even if you're a, you know, best case, you know, you're a self funder in a state where your politics align with the majority politics of the state. Even in that situation, it's a lot of work, it's a lot of public exposure, as we've seen in the worst possible way this week with the Charlie Kirk assassination. You know, every single member of Congress, they not only have to think about the political risks and the time and hassle and the work of running for and being in Congress, but they all have this other layer of their physical safety of being in Congress because they're all public figures. And then of course the physical safety of their kids, of their families. So the burden and the price of running for these offices, as much as we might not like Congress and Congress has a terrible approval rating and we think that many of them are doing a bad job, the price for doing it is high. And so there are like, in spite of the fact that we feel like, you know, the headlines are crazy. And regardless of which side you're on. You feel like our politics are going in a bad direction. And a lot of that is true. It's not saying that that's not true. Not to say that that feeling of negativity is wrong, but it is to say that they do want to actually accomplish things in these roles, otherwise what is it for? Right? Why are they making that sacrifice? And so they do want to accomplish things. And so I think that there's a really good way that the sort of push and pull can work together in Congress. And what I mean by that is like Humanity Forward is an advocacy organization that has primarily worked on the child tax credit and has funded and advocated on other things as well. And is sort of more conventional in the sense that like there's all sorts of organizations, like if you care about, you know, any cause, you can likely find an organization that's based in, in D.C. that's advocating to Congress on that topic. Right. And you can find them and you can support them and get involved with them. And so the biggest topic for Humanity Forward was the child tax credit. And so that work from like outside advocacy does need to happen. And it really is very valuable. And I think for people who are interested in that work, there's a real role for it. On the flip side, on the other hand, on the other sort of side of the equation, I also think there's a role for the work of just helping members of Congress to do what it is that they want to work on and in a way that is not feeling the political risk from collaboration. It is amazing how many times, including on some of the topics that I just mentioned on that list, it is amazing the number of times that members of Congress will tell you in a private conversation that there is a degree of backlash that they receive from, you know, either the hard left or the hard right or whatever for working with the enemy, working with the opposite side of the aisle on even these relatively non controversial topics, you know, even something like childcare or science or, you know, energy permitting reform. We didn't talk about that. Where people on their own side will say, you're a traitor for compromising, you're a traitor for even working with or even talking to people on the other side of the aisle. And so I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done just on that side of our, of helping Congress to work together and be functional, regardless of the specific topic that they happen to be collaborating on. That was why Paolo and I started APV American Policy Ventures was for that goal, and what I think we've seen as that work has built up is that there is so much demand from not just the members of Congress, but also from their staff too. Because think about the environment of like being a staffer in this Congress or in this political environment where you're constantly in the throes of the partisan back and forth, that's a sacrifice too. Most people who are working in Congress as staff, particularly once they get to the more senior levels as a legislative director or a chief of staff, every single one of them, unless they're extremely incompetent, which most of them are not most, all of them can make much more money going to work for, you know, lobbying firms or companies or trade associations. And so they are financially sacrificing, at the very least by continuing to stay in Congress. And so we also want those people to want to stay for as long as possible because they have institutional knowledge, they have expertise, they have relationships. It is in our interest as a country for those people to want to stay in those jobs and want to do those jobs so that more of this stuff gets done. Because it's remarkable from the outside, even though the staffers are totally unknown and they don't get any credit, it's amazing, you know, how much of the work they do as well.

Yeah, I mean, certainly a lot of them could become lobbyists for more money. So you want them to, you know, hopefully get some good things done. They can.

Exactly.

They can feel proud of. So if someone wants to help humanity forward or apv, how can they best do so? Now they've heard you talk and you're like, oh, this actually is very constructive for folks interested.

The websites are humanityforward.com, very easy to remember. And then for APV is apventures.org and so anyone can go and get involved. We'd love to have more people involved from all around the country. So we absolutely welcome it. When I look ahead, you know, I mean, I don't know about. For you, Andrew, I'm actually curious your take since we haven't talked about it just a few days ago. But you know, we're having this conversation a few days after the, after the Kirk assassination. And I have been happily, you know, pleasantly, you know, I've been pleased at least with the response from a lot of figures on both sides of the aisle saying exactly what they should say about how this is a terrible tragedy, it's unacceptable political violence never being acceptable, regardless of the person's point of view. So there is plenty of that. It's not to say that that doesn't exist, but I personally have been really shocked and concerned by the responses on the fringe of either side in response to this event from the hard left who says, well, we disagree with what Charlie Kirk advocated for and spoke on behalf of. And so his death is not to be empathized with or even celebrated. It was something we should celebrate. And putting out, you know, videos of people dancing about it, that's horrifying. And then on the flip side, to see on the fringe right actors who voices, including those with pretty large followings who go out there and say that, you know, this is a sign that we need to, you know, this is war we need to declare. You know, there's, you know, like Charlie, Charlie was the nice guy and he was, he used words, but now we can't just use words because this is an all out war. We need to crush the left. We can't have a country with these people making comments like that. It's so on both sides. That response is so disheartening. And it really has like kind of on a personal level had me a little bit off kilter the last couple of days thinking about, like, why are we doing this work? What is the point of it? Why, you know, re emphasis sort of reminding me about the importance of getting people in a room together and talking as human beings about an issue, even if it's a 10% chance that that leads to passing a piece of legislation, it's worth it. So it's sort of been a reminder of that for me. And anyway, so I know I was just bringing that up, but I really was genuinely curious your perspective on that as well.

I've been very sad and disheartened too. And I mean, you're in D.C. i'm in New York at least most of the time. And it's brutally dehumanizing to see some of the reactions. And it makes you realize how far gone many Americans, certainly the ones that have microphones in some cases and everyone has a microphone now if you have a smartphone. I've got a very bad feeling about where this Zenning and I wish I didn't, but I do. Certainly it makes the work that you're doing and humanity forward and American policy ventures are doing all the more important because if you can lighten the distress that Americans feel, then that's a win, especially if they see that the system is somehow responsive in some way. So if a person goes to humanityforward.com or AP ventures.org, like, I imagine you have mailing lists. You can probably always use money because, you know, money helps. There are some people who are watching and listening to this right now who are consistent donors to Humanity Forward in particular. But outside, let's say someone's like, look, you know, I'm broke. Is there something they can do to be involved or help too? Do you have mailing lists? Do you have things that occasionally you can reach out to your own member of Congress?

Absolutely. So please, you know, go to the website, sign up, reach out. There's contact forms, you know, reach out to us and our team directly. I think that people do underestimate the difference that it makes. Forget about money and giving money. People underestimate how much difference it makes. The power of the voice of one constituent. Not hundreds of constituents, not thousands of constituents, particularly at Humanity Forward. With all of the work on the child tax credit over the last couple of years and, and other policy issues, it's been interesting to see how what tactics are effective and what tactics are not effective. And I think it's always changing. You know, what, as the media landscape changes, as the technology, the digital landscape changes, the political landscape changes, the tactics evolve. But something I would say is almost worthless. That is not worth the time that it takes in most instances. I know many organizations wouldn't, you know, like me to say this because they send these out all the time. Is petitions. I really don't think they're worthwhile. It's primarily a device for organizations to just build their lists of signups. It doesn't really help move the needle on an issue. But. So if I'm saying a petition doesn't move the needle very much, how does one person move the needle? One person can move the needle quite a bit with storytelling. I have seen just amazing instances of one story from one constituent to a member of Congress or to a congressional staffer really making a difference in how they think about something. Also, at the same time, I've seen it make a big difference when, you know, a constituent will write a letter to their editor in the local newspaper, which might seem quaint and small scale, but it really makes a difference. There are members of Congress who read their letters to the editor from their local newspapers religiously. And not that they're going to, like, change their position on something based on one thing they one article they read or one letter to the editor that they read, but that they might feel reinforced or they might feel supported. They might feel more motivated to work on something that they already want to work on. By virtue of the fact that they say, hey, there's someone, someone back home, someone in my district, someone in my state, who noticed that I'm doing this and really appreciates it in a way that kind of hits them. So I encourage you, if, like, if there is bipartisan work, regardless of, you know, the topic, if there is something here bipartisan that your member of Congress or your senator is doing that you think is good and that you appreciate them doing, write to them, tell them that, write a letter to the editor, get an op ed published in your local newspaper, whatever it is, write on Facebook, write on X, write on Instagram, go out there and share that. Because more often than not, it will trickle to someone in the office. Particularly because so much of the communication that a congressional office gets is either extremely negative or very partisan. And so something that's positive and bipartisan will stand out in their flood of communications that they receive or that they see and could make a real difference in helping to make sure that a member of Congress feels like they're on the right track and that they're working on something that their constituents actually see and appreciate. So don't discount the power of your own voice. Even if you're not, you know, in D.C. working on Capitol Hill, it doesn't matter. You can still play, I think, a really, really big part of helping to channel everything in a little bit more of a positive direction.

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Well, you've seen it and you've seen it work. So if someone joins your mailing list, you can ping them and be like, hey, FYI, your member is like looking at building some ships or whatever it happens to be Humanity forward. And you, Liam, are some of the things I'm proudest of in terms of the 2020 campaign. And look, I get plaudits every day from people telling me, oh man, you called AI oh man, you called UBI oh man, like you were ahead of the curve. And I'm like, haha, that's great, that's nice. But like, what did I actually do in terms of improving people's lives? Oftentimes I think of you, humanity forward. And now the permanent establishment of the child tax credit and say, you know what, $80 billion, 60 million kids, tens of millions of families. Like we can hang our hat on that. And the way that happened was through five years of blocking, tackling and thankless invisible work by you and the team in dc. I mean, you did some other things too, that maybe eventually we'll be able to celebrate that. But there was no, there was no pointing to yourself. There's no chest thumping. There was no backpatting. Because one of the things I admire about you and the team is you're like, look, we don't talk about our in public because a lot of times these people are going to take heat for like sitting down with the enemy. So like, let's keep it on the down low until maybe every once in a while we can get something done. So if you supported me in the presidential campaign, which you probably did, if you're listening to this, this one's for you in the sense that you helped make this happen. Because as you can tell, if not for the presidential campaign, Liam Declaim here is definitely not running an advocacy org in Washington DC. Like, who knows what he's doing.

Yeah, no, 100%. I feel so lucky to get to do this type of work. And when you and the team launched and started humanity forward in 2020 and set it on this course and then allowed me to try out this wacky idea of trying to do bipartisan lobbying on Capitol Hill around the child tax credit, it's just been an amazing ride. And to get to do it has been a treat. And you're exactly right. Every single person who was a part of the presidential campaign was integral to making this happen and setting the organization, setting Humanity Forward on this course to be able to work on this. And, you know, it's the difficult thing about the plus and the negative, the plus of doing policy advocacy working in Congress is that if you get something done, the effect is enormous. Right. It affects millions and millions of people. It's at a scale that is hard to achieve any other way. The downside is that you don't. You can't run the control trial to know exactly what would have happened had you not done your piece. And so I certainly want to give credit to a lot of the other organizations and groups and members of Congress who worked on making this child tax credit expansion happen. It was many people at the table, not just us. But I really do want to thank every single person who made H F possible, because I think we did have the opportunity to play a really consequential role in getting this across the finish line and helping people see that this is something bipartisan that doesn't need to be super politicized, even a really. In a really political time. And the other thing I'll say about that is, like, for those who might be listening to the comment that you made earlier that I realized I didn't respond to, which is that people have a negative connotation about lobbyists or lobbying. I think this is a broader message separate from our work in D.C. just more generally. I do think that there is a reticence from a lot of good people who do want to make things happen to use the tools that work to get something done. Right. There's a lot of really nice organizations that I think have a skepticism about doing something like lobbying because they think it sounds dirty and not positive and wholesome. And really, lobbying is just a tool. It's just a tool, and it can be good or bad, depending on the purpose for which it's being used, but it is really just that, a tool. And I think if more and more people who want to make a positive difference on whatever topic or on Whatever issue, embrace the tactics that are effective, that actually work, then even more good things could be getting done. There's a reason why an enormous billions of dollars are spent on lobbying. There's a reason why most companies and trade associations have large lobbying and government affairs teams and PACs is because they're effective. They're not doing them out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it for a reason. And so my hope is that over time, more and more people will do that.

The people can have a seat at the table just like the Onion drew it up. Just like Liam and his team are making it happen every day. Humanity forward. Humanityforward.com Congrats, Liam. I really am super proud of you and the team. Everything you've accomplished and will accomplished. And I would just want to personally take credit for all of it. No, I'm kidding, really. Truly though, I want to give the credit to everyone in the Yang gang who helped make our campaign happen because it was an unlikely campaign, an unlikely journey. I don't know if you can tell, but Liam de Claiblo here is an unlikely journey of his own. But this is 1000% real and happening. And it wouldn't be possible without everyone who believed in 100%. And it certainly would have been possible without you, Liam.

And I know it seems like just the two way. I mean, you're being way too generous. It is really so much thanks to you that I mean, to have this opportunity to get to do this, starting this organization in the first place, putting your trust in me to try out this wacky idea. Like I said, I'm so, so grateful and it's just, it's such a treat to get to do. So thank you for doing it and thank you also for like beyond the child tax credit, which, you know, like we said, is going to directly benefit. You know, it's going to go to 60 million plus kids. It's going to directly benefit in terms of like an improvement on the baseline policy that was already there. It's going to be a direct improvement for 23 million kids. Even beyond that, you know, you're talking about like your and your leadership, talking about the polarization and the partisanship and the political dynamics that we're facing and how we need to put them on a better direction and a better trajectory. I think that that's, that's also just as important and it's something hopefully that more people will catch on to more soon too.

Yeah, I'll do everything I can to bring us back from the brink. Liam, these are tough times but we all have to do what we can if we're in position to do good work. Which you definitely are and I think I am too. Just got to lean into it. Liam declivlo, the head of humanity forward and the co founder of American Policy Ventures. Maybe after your next big legislative victory we'll have you back and then you can give us the inside scoop.

Awesome. I look forward to it. Thank you so much. Andrew Limu Emu and Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual but now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music Limu Save yourself money today. Increase your wealth, customize and save. We say that may have been too much feeling.

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