From the Super Bowl to Private Equity: How Steve Young Wins at Everything

Hey everybody, it's Tony Robbins here in beautiful Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. I'm not wearing these glasses because I'm outdoors or trying to be cool. I just had eye surgery, but I didn't want that to stop the opportunity to have today's podcast with my partner Christopher Zook. As you know, we're going to have an incredible guest today. He's one of the rare people who's reached the pinnacle of two completely different worlds.

Beginning of training camp, Bill Walsh stood up and says, I don't care what play we call, I don't care what defense we run, we're going to win because we have shared common experiences and an element of love for each other.

On the football On the football field, Steve Young is one of the greatest quarterbacks literally that's ever played the game. He's a 3-time Super Bowl champion, a Super Bowl MVP, and now a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Now that I see the greats, the titans of business, the titans of sports, they have a lot in common.

After times with football, he co-founded HDGC, one of the nation's leading middle market private equity firms.

When you make a fundamental investment decision, it has to rest not only on the spreadsheet. Great investors are gut investors. Well, what is the gut?

This industry tends to attract people that are very transactional.

Transaction is so set in the DNA of our lives. So I look at private equity and I see the partnerships as a way out.

How do you make sure that they feel like it's a partnership? You feel like it's partnership and it's truly 1 1 more than 2.

It's an irony and this is spiritually true. It's true in football. It's true and it doesn't matter.

A belief's a poor substitute for an experience.

There's no shortcuts. I got to start crawling.

The real question is how do you give somebody experience where they do something unselfish and they feel the rewards that come from it.

Fame, money, notoriety, like the hit rate's almost 100% of people that change their rootedness.

It's all love. It connects us at the deepest level. It levels all those things that separate.

Go test it. Go test my science. Test my— I don't care. We're telling you the truth. If you're not careful, you will define the most sacred parts of your life in transaction. And transaction, because it's self-interested, will rot.

Steve's helped build that firm since 2007, and he's been responsible for hundreds of investments and tens of billions of dollars in transaction value. Many of those funds have generated extraordinary returns and have been oversubscribed. So few people have experienced what it's like to lead a championship team in front of millions of fans and then transition into building one of the most respected firms in private equity. So today we're going to explore what connects these two worlds. So Steve, it's such a privilege to be with you, man. Your career is extraordinary, but most people know about your football career. You can't not, you know, think about football, but most people don't know about, you know, your business career here in capital markets. And here on the podcast, we're always focused on decisions shape destiny. Sometimes little decisions do it, sometimes big decisions. So our first question for you is really, you know, over your multi-careers that you've had, is there one or two decisions that have really made the difference and where you are at pivotal moments today that you look back on and say, thank God I made that decision in this direction?

You know, Tony, it's interesting. My dad once told me not too many years ago, so I was older and he's now 90. And it was maybe 5, 6 years ago. He says, you know what, I think you like third and 10. And that's a football metaphor, of course. And I'm like, No, I don't. No one likes 3rd and 10. 3rd and 10 sucks. 3rd and 10 is like hard. He goes, I know, but I think it finds you. And I think I say that because I, I think the decisions that have been the foundational responses, like, you know, you get, you get questioned and your response has always been to climb, to, to, it was to, to grit it, to, And some of it's like idiot savant stuff where he's like, I don't know, I'm just climbing. What mountain you climbing? I don't know, but it's right in front of me and here we go. And so in some of that, I'm not saying it's always the right answer or the perfect answer, but I think the thing that I look back on, it's the response, am I going to go through it or am I going around it? And that's a really existential question for so many things in life. And I have gone around plenty to know the difference. And to go through it is the place that I think what you're describing is the why of where I ended up in these multiple careers and craziness. It's really because I decided that I was going to go through it and take the challenges that were in front of me. And so, I don't know else to say it that— And I don't want to see people say, "Oh." Everyone's success story is full of all this platitudes and great— oh, of course that was a great career. Look at all the— any career, it doesn't matter, good or great or wonderful, are built on like the same kind of stuff. It's work ethic and toughness and grit. And, and, and that's kind of how I look at— I don't like third and 10, Tony, but it seems to find me.

Well, Steve, I mean, you talked about obviously when you were in Houston at our themes event, you actually told the story a little bit about your dad. And I know that that statement of go through it, not around it, came from your father. And the backstory for the audience is when you were at school, in college, you were like, I'm not sure I want to continue to do this. And if I remember correctly, you said effectively, your dad said, you can quit, no problem. You just can't come home if you do that. So how has that really shaped you?

Yeah. So, as an 18-year-old, he was— my dad, his nickname was Grit. So, that tells you that he was in Angela Duckworth's Grit book, strangely. But, he was— I took him at face value.

He was—

what he was saying is, I don't— if you're going to choose this path, I don't want you here. Now, it wasn't— he wasn't going to reject me as a human or as a dad or, but it was more metaphorical to like, I took him seriously. I was like, look, I guess I can't go home, so I'm not going to quit. But I think it was more his big thing throughout my life. He didn't care whether I chose sports or whether I chose music or whether I chose, doesn't matter. As long as it was going to be productive and useful in my life. He didn't try to guide me. He didn't say, oh, I played football, you play football. I was in the orchestra, so you be in the orchestra. Like he did not, never. Nothing like that. But once you chose it, then you were in. And his big thing is, you know, because I remember many times when I was growing up, I wouldn't want to go to practice or I didn't want to— that's a sport. It was— they were playing me. And so I didn't want to play it anymore in baseball or Little League or whatever else it was. And his big thing is you chose it, you got it, you're in. And I think that's resonated even in that, Chris, you talk about You know, when I was in college, when, you know, I was, I was 8th string quarterback. None of the promises that were made in my mind weren't being kept. People didn't know my name. People didn't know that I was even there. I had other opportunities at North Carolina or Syracuse or different schools, like, wow, what could have been? Why am I here? This sucks. I want to go. I want to quit. You know, I want to maybe transfer. I want to— and that's my dad's response was, You can quit, but you can't come home. And that was consistent. That's consistent throughout his parenting. It's like, you chose it. You took all the information in. You said you were going to go to BYU. You do what you want, but I'm not going to be a part of it. And I think that's a super powerful thing in my life.

It's very powerful.

You think about it, most people just don't realize that the simplest part of success in life is the part no one wants to do, which is getting yourself to do the things they're uncomfortable long enough until you truly master them, right? It's— I always say that, you know, people get rewarded in public for what they practice so intensely in private. And I don't know any great athlete, any great business person that hasn't made that push through continuously, not just once or twice. And I know you've done that throughout your career. I want to take a different tact on decisions though. Early in your career, you were signing— you signed up for the USFL and it seemed like the obvious decision. It was a giant contract. In hindsight, though, became maybe one of the biggest risks in your career. I'm wondering, how did that experience shape the way you think about opportunities today when you look at investment opportunities? Because most people, it's something that's too good to be true, man. They got to do it. And those are the ones that often bite us. So missing an opportunity is equally challenging. How has that— has it influenced you in that area? How did it influence your life, that decision?

You know, it was a, it was a rogue renegade league. That had some really meteoric rise and some real success in the spring. You'd have to live through it to— with the NFL the way it is today, you just, you can't fathom it. But it was, and a lot of the, you know, Herschel Walker and Reggie White and myself and many of the young players were choosing to go there because I was, it was an LA Express. That's where the team was. John Hayden was a famous San Diego Charger quarterback that was gonna be the coach with Sid Gilman, who was the godfather of the forward pass. I didn't want to go to Cincinnati and be the first pick and sit behind Kenny Anderson. I didn't want to, you know, and the truth is, I didn't know many people in Cincinnati and I knew tons of people in, in Los Angeles. So there was a comfort level too, but it was a high-risk situation. But it was, but it was— I was going to be on the field. I was going to be, you know, I could get better. I was going to be coached by people that I, that really knew the game.. And so I knew I was going to get better and I was going to get better. I, you can get better by watching. I proved that watching Joe Montana, like I, you do get better. It's slower. It's, it's not, it's not as effective, but, but being on the field, being, you know, being able to iterate real time, that's when you can really improve. And so that's my, I made the decision and it was a risky decision. And I thought if it went haywire, uh, I'd figure out a way to get back to the NFL, which is how it ended up happening. But I think I chose being on the field over not, essentially.

Well, one of the interesting things is, Steve—

Did that influence your decision-making, though, when you look at investments today? Any of that shape that today in any way? I'm curious.

Yeah, I think there is no great investment decision that is without risk. And so, Look, every decision you make has risks involved in it. I think it's— it has to go— it has to resonate fundamentally to the things that you like. In other words, I chose— I knew it was better for me to be on the field. I knew it was better for me to go. If I was going to find out the full measure of myself, I was going to find it out in this kind of crazy rogue, rebel, renegade situation. That's how I felt about it. Now, has it played out? How do you know? It was like a lot of puts and takes, but that's how I fundamentally made the decision. When you make a fundamental investment decision, it has to rest not only on the spreadsheet and this financial engineering, obviously, a big part of it, a lot of inputs. But they always say, "Well, great investors are gut investors." Well, what is the gut? The gut is that fundamental principle that you're grounded in that you can kind of say to yourself, "I'm willing to take this risk because," again, going back to, "I'm going to be on the field. I'm going to find the full measure of myself." This investment, is going to find its full measure. It's risky, but this is where we're going to find out if they're real players or not. We're going to find out if we're going to— and again, you might find out that you're not, or there's a lot of risks involved in it. But I think it does— my investment history is really grounded in the same gut. And people say, "Well, how do you describe your gut?" Well, I'm trying to. I'm trying to tell you that it's grounded and rooted in something that is so fundamental to you that you know is important for the growth of you or that entity, that's where that gut instinct comes from.

Can you give us an example of an investment you made with that and what that principle was that guided it?

Okay. So, yeah, so there was, there was a little insurance marketing business out of Norfolk, Nebraska called Integrity and the 3 owners, founders, good guys and went and met with them. That was a great business, small, and they had great visions for what they wanted to become. And they were going to actually have to invite hundreds of partners to come join them in this and to build this business. And so, in that invitation, I remember thinking to myself, who are they asking to join? It's other like-minded insurance kind of small entities. Are these guys the kind of people that you, when you, when someone's making a risky decision, they know they're giving, you know, like their, their business is their third, fourth child, I don't know, or maybe their first child, but it's the, it's, it's family. Am I going to take the risk here and join this group? And I thought to myself, what's the rootedness of these guys? What are, who, Who are they? How do they respond when, you know, do they respond in abundance or do they respond in transaction? And I noticed that they responded in abundance all the time, no matter what the issue that came up, even in the negotiations over price, their brain was thinking about how does this work out so that it works for everybody? And so, I was like, that's that gut feeling, how people respond They say to them, now this business is, I look, I don't want to brag, but it's just a huge business. And they're thriving because of that rooted gut feeling about what is it that they're doing and how can they see the full measure of themselves by who they are? How do they react? How do they respond under pressure, under the intimate, tough decisions they had to make? And now I tell them they're my why in private equity. Why do I, my wife says, why are you doing this? It's like, well, because these people I'm backing, great humans who could now build huge businesses and not lose. What's the hit rate, Tony, in your life for fame, money, for, you know, notoriety? Like, the hit rate's almost 100% of people that change their rootedness because of these things. And I want to back people that won't change, that will remain value-oriented, you know, moral, good guys, good women, making good decisions no matter how big and how powerful they get. And, and that's what's happened here. So I, it, that rooted gutted gut reaction is really in that kind of idea that can they, the, can, are they the people that can find the full measure of this business? And that's, that it worked. That doesn't always work. Doesn't always work. It doesn't always, it's not perfect. It's not a straight line, but that's one of them.

So it's fascinating. I'm going to kind of bridge two things that you just talked about into this next segment here. So obviously I'll come back to evaluating talent, which is what you just described, and we'll go into a little bit more detail. But when you think about when you started HEGC, obviously you went from a professional football career into the world of private equity. You obviously just kind of put it out on the field and said, okay, I'm going to see if I'm going to be any good at this, et cetera. But what was the feedback? What was the counsel that you got as you were starting into a completely new career that kind of set you on a path to where you learn what you needed to learn to be successful now that you're on the field?

Tony knows Roger Staubach, I'm sure. He was my hero when I was a kid, played for the Dallas Cowboys for many years in the Hall of Fame. And we got to be friends. How many times do you get to be friends with your hero? Like, that's pretty cool. And I was retiring and he was wildly successful with the Staubach Company. I said, Roger, help me. I'm retiring, but I want to transition. I want to transition well. What is your advice? And he says, well, run. And I go, what do you mean run? He goes, run away. The game will never leave you. You need to leave it. And you need to, and then the other advice I got from a great mentor of mine, Bob Gay, he said, look, you're going to fall off a cliff. You're one of the best in the world at something like world-renowned surgeons, world-renowned philanthropists, whatever it is. And all of a sudden it gets cut off. It's over. And the next day you wake up and you find out You know, what are you— you're not great at anything else. Very rarely are people great at two things, especially world famous. Like you're great at one thing and now it's gone. So you wake up the next day, what are you even good at? Like, I'm not great at anything. Am I even good at anything? Probably not. And so there is a humility that has to enter. And I remember I always describe it as you fall off a cliff and at the bottom of the cliff is you're just a bag of bones the next morning. And like in that bag of bones, what are you, what's the first thing you're gonna respond with? I'm gonna respond with the humility of the truth. I was great at something. It's now over. And now I want to get great at something else. And how do I get that started? There's no shortcuts. I gotta start crawling and then I'm gonna start walking cuz I have humility to say I'm not even good at that yet. And then go on another journey. It's a hero's journey to get to be great at something. It's a hero's journey to, to start, go through the rigor, to face it. Now, there are some shortcuts because of your previous greatness, right? There's some small little places where you can shave off some time. But the truth of the matter is it's a hero's journey. Everyone's hero's journey. That means that hero's journey doesn't mean that you're wildly successful. Hero's journey is that you journey. You actually went through the humility and the vulnerability and the ups and downs and the trials and the challenges and everything else, whether it's career, marriage, you know, friendships, It doesn't matter. It's all, it's all a hero's journey. And I think that's why I got started with great advice. Never— the game never did leave me, Tony and Chris. It never did. But I left it and I left it purposefully because I wanted to be at least good at something else. And well, I'm grateful to my dad for that.

As you, as you work through that, obviously you had great counsel from Roger Staubach and I'm sure many others on the investment side specifically. Did you model yourself after someone? Obviously, in football, you could choose some people to model after. Success leaves clues, as Tony always says. So, you know, who in the investment world kind of either took you under their wing, or who did you say, I want to copy what they do, I want to model what they do and learn from that to be able to accelerate that journey, that hero's journey?

I— it's a weird transition story. It starts out of the locker room of the 49ers when we were— Silicon Valley was exploding around us in the late '90s. And we're all like at least smart enough to know if something's going on. And, I had been invite— a guy named Brian Maxwell had started a business called PowerBar. It was making meal replacements for marathoners. PowerBar was the first kind of protein bar. If you, you know, you think about all the protein bars today, PowerBar was the first one in the late '90s. And, I was famously eating them because I was single and, you know, I was not meal replacement. That was my meal. And so, we got to be friends and he asked me to come on the board. And I'd never been on a board before. I'd gone to law school. I knew kind of governance. I knew basics, but I'd never been on a board. And I go to the board meeting and there was Larry Sonsini, Wilson Sonsini, the famous kind of icon, legal, uh, Silicon Valley, uh, icon. And then Warren Hellman, Hellman and Freeman, one of the icons of, of Silicon Valley. And so that exposure to those two, and I mentioned Bob Gay earlier, was at Bain Capital for many years and became a great friend of mine and mentor because of his time And, you know, we connected in philanthropy. Those, those 3 guys that were late '80s, early '90s titans that lived out all of the Silicon Valley success and, you know, investments and, and private equity. Those 3 names are the ones that really turned me from law to business. And it's like, look, Steve, I think despite the fact that you've been trained in the law, I think you're actually built for business. And I think what they were saying is that the EQ part of it, the people skills, the vulnerability, the recognition to see the other person and see the potential in them like a great coach does, right? See somebody goes, "I see potential in you that you don't even see in yourself." So, those kind of aspects, that kind of advice, those are the 3 names of the icons of people that I luckily ran into. I didn't seek out, but I think Roger Staubach told me to run. I ran into him along the way.

That's great.

And I ran into him and there you go. And that's how it went down.

And you actually commented on two things that tie together, which is, you know, for the— generally speaking, there are exceptions, obviously, but business is more about third and ten. It's more about figuring out how to go from a very short distance to a very long distance and to be able to do it in a short amount of time, to be able to generate a return for investors. That's effectively what private equity is all about. But you also said something that I want to double-click on, which is that somebody saw something in you long before you saw it of yourself. Who would that be that recognized that about Steve Young early? And then how have you used those same techniques to be able to identify talent as you think about who to invest in?

Great, great question. Because I look back at my people who coached me even as an 8-year-old kid, Jack Schlegel, like there's that innate nature to see something, the potential in somebody that you don't see in yourself. It really showed itself in college. Lavell Edwards, the famous coach at BYU. Remember I told you I was 8th string? I wanted to go home. I wanted to quit as a freshman. Like, I remember that next year I made a name for— I figured out a way to work through it. I gutted through it. I kind of made my way. And so the next spring I was in spring ball and, and I made my way to like 3rd string. And I remember Lavell Edwards pulled me aside. It's the first time I'd ever really talked to him. It's like, I think it's the first time you even noticed me, to be honest with you. And he goes, he says to me, listen, you're going to be great. I was like, what? You're going to be great.

Like, who's the—

he was iconic head coach. Like, he hung out with all the famous college coaches at the time he'd been there. He was just a— and I said, Coach, I'm sorry, I appreciate it, but I want to say, hey, did you know I was 8th string 6 months ago? Did you know?

Did you not know?

I don't know if you know this, but I'm 3rd string right now. Like, like, you know, and but I didn't say that. I just said I appreciate it. But as we developed a relationship, it was obvious to me because then I started, you know, my sophomore year, end up being the starter and I threw 6— 3 interceptions in the first half against Georgia in Athens, Georgia. And it was halftime. And he walked in and he says, he tried to calm me down. He's like, look, you know, it's going to be fine. You're going to be great. And I, and because he had invested in me in a way that I started to see the potential, I started to recognize, look, I'm not cocky. I don't think I'm, I will never run ahead of myself, but the shoes I fill right now, I can see I'm going to be pretty good at this. And so the 3 interceptions. I knew that they were mistakes and it was not a great start, but because he had led me to a place where I could step into the shoes of who I truly was at the time, again, a lot more development to go. He didn't need to, like, he didn't need to calm me down. I remember turning back to him, no, Coach, we're going to be fine. And he tells this story that he's like sitting there going, why did I tell him it's going to be okay? Because his kid doesn't even know what he's talking about. Like, he's not going to be fine. You're terrible. You're right here. I ended up throwing 3 more intercepts through 6. And, uh, but he stayed with me. But the point is, it's very obvious to somebody when somebody sees them, and I put them in quotations, sees them in the full potential of their human capacity. And it could be in anything, in school, it could be in just capacity of personality, it could be capacity of an intellectual, it could be anything. But the angels in life or the coaches in your life or the angels in your life who are able to have that heavenly given skill to see you in a way that sees the future, sees what's possible, and then can ingest that to you so that you actually take it in. I guess that's the point of the Lavelle story. I took it in. I didn't say, oh, he's crazy. Yes, no way. It's like I worked my way into it to say, I think he could be right. And it gave me that confidence. And so I take that in business today. It happened. I mean, that is a fundamental story for me that I want. It's a pay-it-forward story that I'm trying to do every day in my life, no matter where it is, where it comes up. I'm trying to be that person that stops, sees somebody, even for moments, and can give them some sense, even a small, even in the minute sense of, hey, you're doing great. Like, it feels like, you know, whatever it might be. Could be small, could be huge, you've got a huge investment in that person. I just, I think that's the greatest quality, the quality that I described, the angels in your life or the mentors in your life or the coaches in your life. Those are the ones that have the most impact in so many ways. And I'd love to be in that spot to pay it back. Did you—

I'm curious, when you were sitting behind Joe Montana, it seemed at the time, obviously the greatest quarterback at the time, anybody's mind. Had you already pulled that identity from those earlier angels, or was there someone at that stage of your career kept you going? Was it— was there an ownership of your own identity at that point? I know it was still humble. It still is today. It's one of the great gifts I think you bring to the table. It makes you have the kind of work ethic and depth of caring and love that you have. And people feel that about you, Steve. But I'm curious, at that time, was there another person like that in your life or did you carry it?

So, Tony, I was a— I was an oddity. I was a quarterback that ran around, and that was just not the prototype at the time, and I was left-handed. No one wanted to coach a lefty. The coach at BYU that was offensive coordinator that luckily left after my freshman year, he told me, I won't coach a lefty. I'm like, what am I doing here? Like, this is insane. He ended up leaving for San Diego State and another coach came in and I wasn't playing quarterback at the time. And he said, Ted Tolner said, why aren't you? I thought you were quarterback. I was, I am. Then why aren't you playing quarterback? Because I'm, They said, I'm lefty. And he goes, what does that matter? I go, nah, it doesn't matter. He goes, I don't think it matters either. And so he got me back. I mean, literally I had to come back and, and, and play quarterback again because lefty's okay. But lefties, you look in the NFL history, the number of lefties that have thrived in the NFL, it's a handful in 50 years.

There isn't another lefty in the Hall of Fame, is there?

Kenny Stabler. Kenny Stabler.

Oh, that's right.

But I mean, but, but, there's 10% of humanity is left-handed, but less than 1% of the quarterbacks are left-handed. Something's odd there. You guys can do the, do the research and figure it out and go after the league. There's some kind of bias there happening. But anyway, back to the Bill Walsh story. So I'm lefty, I'm running around, I'm an incomplete oddity. And so despite me feeling like I was going to be a pretty good college quarterback, you make a good point, Tony. What's— that doesn't mean that you're going to be, you know, can just run the table. So now I'm a pro watching one of the greatest or greatest players have ever played. And I'm saying, and I didn't want to be watching and I wanted to say to myself, can I do, can I do this? And Bill Walsh, before I got to San Francisco, the first conversation I had with him, he called me because I'm in Tampa Bay and they were going to trade me. And the long story about how the owner allowed this to happen, but he allowed me to pick my team and at least go out and scout where I wanted to go. Which is crazy in itself. And Bill Walsh called and he said, Steve, everybody thinks that being a lefty and running around is a negative. I think it's a huge positive. It's going to be the differentiator and you're going to be one of the greats in the game. And I thought, I go, I can't believe that what everybody thinks is terrible or odd or weird, that Bill Walsh said it's going to— that's going to be the secret for how you're going to be one of the greats in the game. And I, Now, at the time, Tony, I was not— I did not ingest that. Like, I literally was not sure that I could play in the league. I was not.

It was a seed. That was a seed there.

That was the seed. But he— but then, then Bill Walsh had the offense to show it. He had the play calling, he had the talent around, he had, he had all of it. And so it's like, if you want to see the full measure of yourself, you need lots of help. By the way, nobody does it alone. Nobody does it alone. And, and so for me, it was that visibility because that rang in my ears still, that at a time when nobody saw things as a pot— like you were not— I was not prototype. I was not somebody to invest in. I was not somebody that I was just odd. Today's game. Oh, Tony, I'm the man today. Like, like in today's NFL, this is my game. That's so weird. The future. I was too early for my time, but, but at that time I needed somebody to say, to see it as a positive. And I remember for the first time in my life, because I remember being lefty and go, I don't know if it's, you know, no one wants a lefty. And he was the one that kind of leaned in. I really appreciated that big time.

You know, you've— I've seen you describe the best people as emotional athletes. I think you said that the people that can hold the, you know, the vulnerability The excellence and have kindness all in tension. I'm curious, when you're evaluating a founder, a CEO, a management team, or even somebody come to work for you, how do you actually spot that quality in your mind or those set of qualities and that dynamic tension?

I think the first thing I notice is someone who has the vulnerability. I think most everybody can recognize when somebody is open to critical feedback and to growth. I think that I can, I feel that in people. Even people who are super confident or super, you know, there's a, there's a Spidey sense that, that they're open to, I don't know everything and I can, I seek growth. I seek improvement. I'm not who I could, I'm not the full measure of who I can be today. And I'm interested in that. And I think that there's that, that's the fundamental piece of the puzzle. 'Cause if somebody is not invested in that process, then they're topped out kind of by definition. And it's very difficult to iterate. And as you know, in, in business and in life, you gotta be able to iterate and, and sometimes very quickly. And, and they, they can iterate, but not effectively because it's just gonna be double down on the transaction of their life. In other words, they're, I do it a certain way. This is how I do it. The template works. I've looked where I've gotten to and now I'm just going to keep doing it. And sooner or later, that transaction, that ends. And so, that's the first huge piece that I look for when I meet people. And it's such an attractive quality is the vulnerability. And I love when I see it in super powerful people, super great, like the titans of business when they have that that quest. George Roberts comes to mind. He spoke at our AGM recently. He's a good friend. And he's somebody that just always wants to learn, always looks for like, what's the next thing? How do I change? How do I become better? I just, you know, I think he's 82. It's like, I don't know, it's super inspiring when I run into it. And especially with those people that are super powerful.

And the vulnerability and the kindness kind of go together usually, don't they?

Yeah, it feels that way. But it's funny, that can run out, Tony. That's why I say I appreciate it in super powerful people because over time, a lot of times you lose that because you get lazy or you get like overconfident. It's just like, I don't need that vulnerability anymore. And you become— everything becomes a weapon instead of a tool. And so, it can change. To run the table for your whole life is quite a feat.

That's cool. You want to ask about AGGC's partnership investing philosophy there, Chris?

Yeah, I will. I will do that. So, you know, Steve, when we think about, you know, investing in general, obviously AGGC, like so many other firms like it, it truly is a partnership. But I mean, there's so many people out there that wrap a transaction in the name of a partnership. How do you delineate the difference and how do you make sure that when you truly are partnering with management teams, they feel like it's a partnership, you feel like it's a partnership, and it's truly 1 1 more than 2.

Oh, Chris.

All right.

I don't want to get too wound up here, but what I recognize, life, the— You can get wound up.

Go ahead. Everybody will enjoy it.

Well, the entropic nature of life is that everything's going to rot and die, right? Science proves that. Uh, and entropy proves that. And gravity, you sweat your brow, everyone has to keep breathing, has to keep eating. You have to wait. It's like a very transactional experience. Life is transactional. It hits you in the face. And so in that way, the idea that the transaction would lead, especially in private equity, especially as you find the partnerships, I recognize that if you're not careful, transaction is so set in the DNA of our lives that it's, and especially with business, if you have to work against it, you have to, I say rise above it, but it's an inevitability that unless you kind of intentionally every day work against, you will end up in a zero-sum game transactional. Our politics are built that way, right? They're, it's very, very difficult. And you can see today they just, they get doubled down. Everybody comes more fundamental and ends up more to the edges to find the middle. It's just super transactional. And so it's very dangerous. It's bad place for humanity to be is just let it fall to the bottom of the, of the hill in, in a transactional space. And so I look at private equity and I see the partnerships as a way out of that, that rottedness, that inevitable rottedness of transaction. And so, what do I look for are people who at least will intend. No one's perfect. We're all aspiration. We all have attribution in our hearts. We all want credit. We're all transactional beings. We can't help it. But can I meet people and be with people that at least will say the words and have the intent to look beyond the transaction, look beyond what is just zero-sum game, and see that if we work hard together, if we come together and consistently come together and look each other in the eye and solve problems together and build trust, that abundance can come out of the ultimate transactional world, which is private equity. And that's the point. That's why we started in 2008. It was— we started it because we thought private equity was broken. I remember it was— it's broken. Middle market's broken. It's all spreadsheets and and science projects. The people are gone. Where's the people? Late '80s, early '90s, old school KKR, Bain Capital, private equity was across the table as your partner. Peri passu, invest, reinvest into it together, find strategic vision, help each other succeed. Like, that's what we wanted to do in 2008. Everyone made fun of us. Oh, what are you guys going to be, good guy capital? Like, just be nice to everybody? Because no one really could grasp exactly what I, what I'm trying to describe to you today. Is that in the effort every day to build abundance in a relationship over time is the greatest return you can give back to your limited partners. Now, people say, is that exact dollars or is that— is that— how does that really— how do you— how do you— what's the— what's the science of that? And I just firmly believe that we have built a firm that everybody at least voted with their feet. To go the extra distance, to build into the relationship, to build away from the transaction and find the abundance. And as we talk about, and we're not, look, we got some people in our firm that are so transactional, like, but they're working against their nature. They know it and they're okay, like, okay, I see the benefit. I see the goodness. I see the richness. I see the, not the abundance, but the flow, like the full measure. And so that, That's what we've done. And so when you ask me, Chris, how do you find partners? It's really people that, that when I, when I would, there's a lot of people I say this to and they're like, oh my gosh, this guy's just railing about some crazy love. Like, what is he talking about? This makes no sense to me. And that's like, that's fine. Totally fine. But when I, when we talk about it this way, there's a lot of people go, that's exactly what kind of business I want to be in.

That's exactly how I want So, well, no, exactly that. And what I'll tell you, you know, owning stakes in over 100 different firms and investing with hundreds more, the partners, the limited partners, the investors, they do appreciate that not only the returns have been made, but they've been made in the right way, in a way that's adding value and growing businesses and growing jobs and growing people. That's, that's really, really cool. So yes, it is about the, you know, the dollars, but it's also about the value that's created beyond that. And so, I commend you for trying to do it the right way.

For 15 years, it felt like, you know, people— I know, again, it was antithetical to private equity, right? Is that you would try to find abundance in private equity, like, screw that, just get to the bottom of the hill with everybody else. But now, I think it's— it's, it's really the way so many in private equity are trying to elevate, trying intentionally to elevate every day, to find the abundance in that transaction and find it in their partnership, to figure out how to work together, to build value, to build legacy, to build things that aren't just about the last dollar. And so it resonates. It resonates. And there's not an owner selling a business today that that wouldn't at least make some sense to. There are a few that just give me the last dollar, though. That's all I care about. Very rarely is that the case today.

It's their, it's their child. It's if they're connected to and they built it, it's something emotional.

Yeah. It's their family.

Mission, right? It's family. Exactly. It's all the above. So those things really become critical and it becomes your differentiator. Listen, you know, one of the beautiful things about you, Steve, we're not just blowing smoke your way. Anybody listening and watching you right now feels you. You have a philosophy of life that you really live. There's people who, you know, talk the talk and there's people that walk the walk. So, and I know you wrote a whole book on the Law of Love. I'd love you to comment on that, but also how much of playing on 3 championship Super Bowl teams and being with guys like that, being in a team environment, how much of that shapes the way you look at leadership teams today as an investment side? And tell us a little bit about the Laws of Love, if you would. Yeah, you bet.

Give us some highlights. Good for all of us for this question is that it kind of all is part of it. Bill Walsh was the one that— my Hall of Fame coach back in the late '80s. The first big team meeting I had ever been a part of with the team, beginning of training camp, he stood up and says, I don't care what play we call, I don't care what defense we run, we're going to win because we have shared common experiences and an element of love for each other. And he went on to say, because we're going to be in Green Bay when, you know, at some point down by 4 with a minute left with no timeouts, it's going to be sleeting rain. You've never been colder. Windy years, 80,000 people screaming against you, you're going to get in a huddle. And I want you to not just know the guys in your huddle because their name is on the back of their jersey, but I want you to have relationship with them because in that relationship is how we will win. And so that beautiful process for me around then, the 49ers for 20 years, head of the game. You know, everyone says it's because of the West Coast offense. It was because of the quarterbacks. It was because of Jerry Rice is because it was fundamentally that it was about relationships and it was about selflessness. At the end of the day, as much as someone gets to go in and make a deal with a team, they have a contract, they're getting paid a certain amount of money, at some point, it becomes about the collective. And that's not socialism. That's not, you know, I'm not trying to, it's not a political statement. It's about how humans can subsume their self-interest into the interest of the great, of the good, of the many. And all the great organizations, all the great teams, all the great companies have elements of this that they're working towards. Again, it's a transactional world, Tony. We were built to be at the bottom of the hill, but we can fight against it. And the businesses that have fought against it, Bill Walsh, so obviously saw the beauty, not just like it's a better way of life, let alone, but the fact is it's more abundant. It actually returns to invest, like it actually does all the things. And he titled his book, The Score Takes Care of Itself. That was a great, it's one of the great coaching books that have ever been written. And what he was saying is the same kind of thing. Great values, great relationships, great, you know, kind of underpinnings of culture. The score takes care of itself. Like, you don't have to look at the scoreboard. It's going to take care of itself. And so, in that way, my book that I wrote to my fellow LDS, kind of more of a religious book, was really around the same idea that if you're not careful, your relationship with heaven can become very transactional. Hey, I'll sacrifice God as long as I get credit. And it's very subtle. You don't say it out loud, but you're actually— it's self-interest. Transaction is self-interest. And religion really can't be the full measure of itself if self-interest is rooted in it. It has to be selfless love. And people are like, what is this hippie love? '60s? Like, stop. This is about a different paradigm that is against the transaction, the entropy of this world. But if you're not careful, you will define the most sacred parts of your life in transaction. And transaction, because it's self-interested, will rot sooner or later. It has to rot. It can't be perpetual. And if you believe that there's a durable spirit inside of you that will live on, then it needs to come from a place that's a perpetual place. It can't be led by these transactional laws. Well, what's it going to be led by? It's going to be led by selfless love. It has to be. And so, it's a description to me, the law of love is really around a way forward, a paradigm to shift our definitions of the very sacred things in our lives so that they're not transactional. We tend to use transactional language, transactional thought to define the most sacred things in our lives. And even in marriage or in those sacred relationships, they can't be transactional. They'll rot. And so, that's why I have a lot of passion about it. And I've seen it in football. I've seen it in private equity. I've seen it in my marriage. I've seen it in my family life. I've seen it in my religion. Like, I know that the law of love is undefeated. It's undefeated in any place and anywhere. And I've kind of proven it to myself because I've tested it in all these kind of crazy places. And I've seen the people who have described it in different ways, but the same kind of philosophy and the same kind of underpinnings and rootedness. And I think that's the bounty in life is to leave what is obvious to everybody, which is transaction, which is what's built like gravity is like You know, you don't get to fight gravity. It's going to get you every time. I looked in the mirror today just getting ready for this podcast. I'm like, whoa, things are not going well.

Gravity is going to win.

That is for sure. But so things are, but against that, I'm leaning back against that to leave the self-interest and trying to find that subliminal, not subliminal, but sublime, beautiful space of selfless love. And other humans, when they feel that, Tony, you know this, but this is intuitive to you and to you, Chris. It's like when somebody comes to you in that spirit of selfless, like truly leaving themselves behind, it hits different. It feels, it's impactful, it's masterful. It's It's the full measure of life. And so anyway, you ask a really loaded question for me, but it's connected to football. It's connected to Bill Walsh. It's connected to my spiritual life. It's connected to my business life. It really is. And that's why, you know, you can see I have a lot of passion about it because I've seen it and it's sweet. It's good. It's worth it. And I think I remember, Tony, the other day you said something I've been I was kind of thinking about you recently and all the years that you've been paying it forward and doing amazing things. And you said something about some people work to be happy and it doesn't, they don't, but if you're happy, I can't remember how there was a little play on words.

I used the word be happy.

It really was the law of love. It's really about like, can I be present?

Yes.

And feel the day. And appreciate the day and not be in control and be submissive to a higher power. And in that space, I see people in a more abundant, beautiful way. I see myself. So, I wish I would— I'm sorry, I didn't remember the exact quote, but I know you've been chewing on this for a long, long time. In fact, you probably had a great influence on me. I didn't even know it.

Well, you're very kind. No, I've known in my own life, I got to tell you that all over the earth, the one People say, you have all these different skills or abilities, Tony, you can negotiate and do this, you can build, take an audience and do X with it, you know, like you with a football. But it's all love. It's all love because that's what moves people more than anything else. Because unfortunately, unconditional love, a love where you care about something more than yourself, when you're here to serve something more than yourself, when you disappear and just love is the only thing there, that's when people connect at a level that's beyond just the physical. There's a spiritual side to it, a spirit side, however you want to call it. It doesn't have to be religious in nature. But it connects us at the deepest level. It levels all those things that separate. And it's really obvious. I'm thinking as you were speaking about, if I was a business owner looking to find somebody to partner with, it's like, this is the guy I'd want to partner with because he's looking at life in its full dimension. And in the end, you know, I've dealt with so many people. I recently had a conversation with a very, very successful entrepreneur and he was, his whole thing was like, you know, F happiness. And I said, no, F suffering, you know, F The suffering comes, you're so busy doing things, right? You've forgotten to connect and appreciate what's here, the people, the environment, this breath we have, this moment. And I think sometimes in anything, investments, private equity, you get, as you said, down to the transaction level. And when that happens, it's going to happen at times. But if you stay there, there's no way to be fulfilled. To succeed, you know, success without fulfillment is the ultimate failure, right? And I really acknowledge you because it's very clear you're living the richest, fullest life because you're giving all of yourself. When you're done, there'll be nothing left but the love that you left.

Tony, look, we need to be very— thank you for that. And I also appreciate, because I know you've been doing this for decades and leading the way, but in that way, again, I'm chewing on it with you. I'm chewing on it with others. I am not an expert. I am somebody who has seen the bounty and seeks it every day. But I also recognize the desire in my heart to get credit. The desire to be transactional. Like it's in the water. Like you can't, but you have. So again, I say nobody's perfect at this. But again, the intent and the aspiration of it. Dave Erickson says, Steve, I'm interested in this. How do I get started? I say every morning, start your, like leaving the harbor, have your boat point in the area of selfless love. Like, and I'm looking for a little small, ways to help others heal. Like, that's what I'm going to— I might not be perfect at it today. I might not even spend that many minutes at it, but that's my intent. That intent matters over a period of time. And that's beautiful. I appreciate that.

Absolutely beautiful.

It's one of those things that for so many, particularly younger people entering into this industry, because this industry tends to attract people that are very transactional, tends to attract people that are thinking very much about themselves. And so trying to build that into ourselves, obviously, because we're always struggling with it ourselves, but to build that into people in their 20s and their 30s when they're trying to build a family and they're trying to grow and accomplish and to develop, it's really an interesting thing to try to create. And I end up telling as many Tony-isms as I do head football coach-isms as somebody who coached football for a long time. Dave Erickson. It is about building a locker room, building a team that is all focused on themselves, but not on themselves, but for the benefit of the overall team and making themselves the best they can in order to make the team the best it can be. So I love how you put it. Now, how do you put it to those younger people? Is there a way that you coach them, put them into situations, or you put them into environments where you give them the opportunity to exercise that muscle? If you will. How can you build that in the next generation?

Super cool. Because transaction's actually developmental. Like, it's important for children. Your 7-year-old, that's how you teach values is get credit, right? Like, I'm going to, if I do good, I get a prize. You know, Santa Claus, like, be good and you'll get something good. But that developmental, I don't know that I honestly go back and say to myself, I'm not sure that's the way to do it. Even as a child, but to describe what I just described in your own words around the transaction, what a transaction means, what's the nature of a transaction, the give and take and why. And then obviously for young people, it's going to be over time because it's not intuitive to someone who's seeking. I was speaking to a group of 20-year-olds recently about this kind of subject. And I said, any questions? A kid raised his hand and just, ah, Mr. Young. You know, look, you're older, you know, and you've accomplished a ton and you have a legacy. And so, you know, you're on the other side of it, right? And so, you can talk about all this kind of stuff because like, what else do you— I know what he was— I put words in his mouth, like, what else do you got? You know what I mean? Like, you got nothing left, you know? But what am I? I'm 20 years old. I don't know that I'm ever going to have a legacy. I don't know that I'm ever going to accomplish anything. What is this? How can this be meaningful to me? And it was an interesting question because the same question you just asked, Chris, is like, yeah, it sounds great, but I live in reality and reality doesn't allow for this. And I think what I try to describe is recognize, I recognize, we all recognize the nature of life is transactional and it is rational. What I'm describing is more to that rationality, it's irrational. And I'll own it. I'll own that it's irrational. And as a young mind, you can start to say to yourself, okay, what Steve's talking about, I see that as irrational. I understand that why it doesn't— why it feels odd. But then I said to the kid who asked me the question, I go, look, you're asking about legacy. And I really do believe as an older guy, I have found through time The true legacy is how much healing you brought to humanity. That's legacy. So, if I'm right, I got a late start. I didn't figure this out until just recently. You're 20. I'm telling you that's legacy. I think it's just flipped on its head. You're the one that now has a full lifetime to figure out how to build that legacy. And look, I understand that that's esoteric and sometimes you know, doesn't— but I think it's rooted in truth. And I think that's my answer, Chris. And I don't think that it's— I think it's something you have to keep finding ways. I keep searching for ways to better describe what I'm talking about. And Tony, you've been doing— you've been found words in it for decades so that people can chew on it with me. Because if I can get young kids chewing on this with me, which I think their nature is, by the way. This is the first generation that said, I don't care if I get more as long as it's fair. Like, this is a group that's ready for this kind of conversation. We just got to find the language that really, you know, I think it all will resonate. But, but back into the business world, we're built, the system builds transactional private equity professionals. They come out of school and they're like, I'm ready. I am, I'm super powered. I've got everything. I'm here for you. And I go, sorry, bro. That's not what we're looking for. Well, I mean, with that, we do need the, you know, kind of the financial engineering. We need the science of the deal. Those are all inputs. So, I appreciate that part you're bringing, but a big part of what we bring is not that. And so, they have to— there's many people, not many, there's a few people that have left our firm, Tony, because it just, I just want to do deals. I don't— this whole thing just sounds weird and soft to me. I'm not into it. So I get that. Sorry.

Well, I mean, it goes back to the old adage.

Part of—

go ahead, Tony.

Go ahead. No, I was just going to say part of it, I think, in my experience, for all of us to consider is it's hard to— a belief's a poor substitute for an experience. And we all have beliefs and it's really based on experience. And so the real question is how do you give somebody experience where they do something unselfish and they feel the rewards that come from it. That's what I try to do. Give people enough experiences like that, then they get hooked. Then they get a dopamine hit that comes from the spiritual side of life instead of just the transactional side of life, where it's like no one else has to know, but you know. And when the person learns to feel that, now they're driven by a different voice, not the external world. There's an internal drive in them. And that's what's lasting. That's why I've never believed in motivation. People call me a motivator. I hate it. It's the worst term in the world because, you know, motivation is like warm bath. You should probably have one, right, on a regular basis. But that doesn't change your life. It's finding what drives you. It's finding that inner drive. And I believe it's inherent in everyone, but you have to give them some experiences. Up until now, the only experiences they've been rewarded for have been those transactional ones. So that's what I try to look at it. But Christopher, what were you going to say?

No, what I was going to say, it goes back to the adage of, you know, the best way to be successful is to help everyone succeed in what they're accomplishing. And obviously I'm paraphrasing that, but to be able to enable others to achieve what they want to achieve inevitably is going to lead to success for the entire team. And so that's a really big part of what I love about what you're talking about and how I really hope that this generation of 20s to 30s to 40s recognize that we can all get what we want if we also allow other people to get what they want and we help facilitate that. And what I'll do is I want to transition a little bit to the realities of the investment side.

Chris, before you go, I just want to say It's the ultimate irony. That's the truth of it. It's an irony. And this is spiritually true. It's true in football. It's true in— it doesn't matter. In this, in losing yourself, in seeing someone else, and if you said, look, I'm solely interested in your healing today, that's the irony is that's how you actually receive the bounty. It's in the losing. And the finding. That's the part that people— I want young people to understand is that it is irrational because it's ironic in its totality. It's in losing myself in the seeking of someone else's healing is how I receive everything that I need. All the stuff that— because everyone says, well, I need stuff too. And that's the best way to receive it.

And I think that's where I'll quote Tony and say, you know, the The true secret of living is giving. And that ultimately is what Tony's taught us.

But that's the ironic truth. Like, when we— everyone who's listening to this, go test it. Test it by science. Test it by— I don't care. It's the— we're telling you the truth. Now, just go chew on it and start thinking about it. Because I tell my kids, one of my— I have 25 to 17-year-old. And my 17-year-old's like, "Hey, Dad, I think I'm going to read your book." I'm like, well, yeah, it's only been 10 years. You know, it's like, it takes time. You can't— it takes time to chew on a little bit.

Like, you can't—

it's in your own time. Sorry, Chris, you were going to say something.

No, no, no. I was going to switch gears a little bit, but this is so much value for the audience. And I'm so thankful for you sharing that because it is something that will go long beyond the conversations of investments. But I know that some people would like to talk about the investment side. Just a little bit more. And so, as we think about the opportunities that present themselves, I mean, so many of the investments are very, very obvious at the time, but many times they're just crowded. They're very much of a herd mentality. You, when you look back on your career in the investment world, how have you differentiated between what is a trend and what is ultimately everybody following a crowd and becoming a herd mentality or becoming a bubble? How have you differentiated that way?

Interesting. We, I think we solved it in our roots in how we formed the firm. When we described this, I don't know how partnership investing, we'll kind of talk about as the way to do it. And then we all decided we weren't going to be asset managers. What we'd seen in private equity is that, you know, as soon as you could raise a billion, that means you could raise 10. That means you could raise 70. Like, that's the mentality, right? I'm going to be an asset manager. And we'd seen that and he said, look, if we're going to serve the middle market with this kind of partnership investment in this kind of bespoke individual way, then we can't be asset managers because you actually can't build expertise. The business that you're buying at a billion dollars of AUM is not the business you're buying at $10 billion. And so you have an, it's a new skill. And so yes, you've got more money under management, but you're not, you're not doing this. You're not, the experience you've had is not one-to-one because you've left the certain segments of the market. Right. And so we decided from the very beginning, we're not going to be asset managers. We're going to make our money. We're going to, our funds have been a billion, a billion, 4 billion, 8, 2, 4, now 3. Like we're right. We're just going rate of inflation almost, but we're making our money in co-investment. We told everyone from the very beginning, we will be the biggest investor back into as an LP, back into the GP. We're going to be the ones that are eating our cooking because that's where we're going to make our money and that's where we can use the experience we had and the scars, the many scars get folded back into the experience and doing the same thing over and over again. That's the secret for us. That's how we've solved that problem. And in that way, I guess we solved it from the very beginning. Because we didn't have to question how we were going to chase the ultimate dollars. We're going to chase them by reinvestment and serving the market so that we could maintain this philosophy. Otherwise, you can't— there's a great partnership of investors, but they can't use their experience because they've left the market, right? And that's why so many asset managers come back and build a little fund now to go back in the middle market. And hang out with us little people, you know what I mean?

Being freakish about alignment is a saying that we use all the time as a firm. And obviously, the more that you're aligned with them and the more that you keep doing the same thing over and over and over, you're expected to be much better at it, that's for sure.

Tony, as we go to wrap up, though, I want to come back to your father for a moment since he's such an influence in your life and you've been kind of a father figure during this conversation for I think a lot of young people and perhaps some people of various ages, but your father, if I read correctly, used to say, you know, dreams are 1%. And I think he said something like the plans is 80%. And there's so many people that dream, but they just don't, they don't have a plan. They wonder why it doesn't work out so well. It seems so simple. But as an investor, how do you balance that ambition and discipline in the way you approach your investments in your business? And any comments you want to make about philosophy and how it shaped your life.

So my dad, when I was growing up, I had a picture of Roger Staubach, the poster of the Dallas Cowboys. I used to, you know, and my dad says, what, you have a, you know, what's your dream? I go, my dream is to play in the NFL. He goes, man, that's an amazing dream. Dreams are less than 1% chance. So that's a, that's a great dream. I think that's less than 1% chance you'll ever play in the NFL. And he says, but you also have to have a plan. What's the plan? 80% chance has to be 80% chance that you can do that. I go, well, I'll graduate from college and I'll go to law school and I'll be a lawyer. And he goes, I really believe that's an 80% chance that you can do that. And so that's how I lived. My, I grew up with the 1%, you know, the dream. And so then I went to the NFL and I remember calling my dad because he drilled me out. He goes, well, dad, guess what? The dream became the plan, you know? And his immediate response was, yeah, the average career is 3 and a half years. What are you going to do for the rest of your life? And, uh, So, what's the plan? So, I stuck with the plan. But he was— it really is and it resonates with me even today. And my kids, you know, they're like, Dad, I know, dream and plan, dream and plan. But as long as we recognize that our— and my dad always said, you need both. Don't ever have a part of time in your life where you don't have a dream. But also don't ever have a time in your life you don't have a plan. And that's kind of how he— that's his fundamental philosophy for life, right? And you asked me, Tony, how that informs my investing career. And I think it recognizes that there's in the doing, because truth is my dream did become the plan. Like it did for a brief time. It was 100% chance because I actually started playing and doing the thing that I dreamed about. So, dreams are vital. So, it's in the living them as living things They, they, they, they, and they change, right? But it's always that constant kind of assessment in your life. I recognize that I'm all in on a dream that has less than 1% chance. And I want everyone in my life, my family, those around me that count on me, I'm doing, I, I am doing this and I know it has less than 1% chance, but this is what I'm doing. Because then you now affirming the fact that it's like high risk, low reward, you know, high reward, low, but low likelihood, like be honest about it and that you're leaving the plan behind. Because that's in that, you know, in that truth, everyone around you can, because so many, I know people that are always dreamers and then somehow it'll hit, you know, whatever. I'm down the street from Mark Zuckerberg, right? And it's like, I'm not saying that he was a dreamer. I was just saying things hit and now everyone wants to do like, I want, that's the risk I'm willing to take. One in a million, that's me. You know, it's like, bro, like, let's be honest about it. Carry both with you, a plan and a dream. And I think that's when I talk about investments and investors and really about leaders and about, you know, management teams and who can rally people. It's kind of that they don't have the verbiage that I have about it, but they have the understanding that we're risk takers, but we're also fundamentalists. Right? And so in that, like, how can you be a risk taker and fundamental? They're not friends. We're going to hold them both. We're going to hold them both every day. We're going to talk about them. You know what I mean? And that's how we're going to do it. We're going to hold in suspension two things that do not go together. That's what Bill Walsh did originally, right? We're going to be the best football team in the world. We're going to go punch you in the mouth. We're going to be the love and relationships and like, what? That's insanity, you know? And yet, yet it's in the discord, dissonance. It's in the rubs and the—

Dynamic tension.

Yeah, it's in the tension.

I call it creative tension, Tony. They're creatively tense. They're not toxically tense. That's a whole other thing. These are creative tension. And I think in creative tension, all the best stuff happens. So, there enough of that.

I'm going to ask you the question that I know that every single person is going to want to hear. So, you had the opportunity to be around Hall of Fame athletes, Hall of Fame coaches, world-class entrepreneurs, world-class investors. What is it that sets them apart that makes them who they are as a common thread?

That's interesting. It's the dream, right? The risk-taking on the fundamentals. I was, I was at an interesting conversation recently with, I mentioned George Roberts and Henry Kravis, the longest, most successful partnership in history of business, and talked about like, what, why were they willing to take such risk? And it was fundamental to them. It wasn't, they didn't see it as a 1% chance. They saw it as fundamental to, we trust each other. We believe in each other. We believe that we, we have a better way to do it. And therefore, it's not just a dream. It has a plan in it too. And in that way, I think I see the same thing in athletes that, you know, as athletes, you're a huge risk-taker because it's such a long shot that it'll ever work out like that. And I think it's the same thing. It's built off of the fundamental truth of their ability. Of what they think is important to them and how they can— I, it's once I have the opportunity to show my skill, it gets less of a dream. Right. And so I think, again, I think it's in the creative tension of life. Uh, and, um, I, I wouldn't, I would want no one else to be like, oh, I want to be like Tony Robbins. Well, wait a second. What's fundamental, like what's fundamental about that? Like there's, there's crazy dreams and there's like, Maybe there's something fundamental about your personality and your skillset that makes it less of a dream, but actually you could use that as a template and go do something like that. Good. That's my dad. Now you're talking about a plan. Right? And so they've— my dad talked about two separate things. I tell him there are two things that you hold together and work out. So the inspiration I see in coaches, the thing that I see that's a common thread, the through thread, of all of it is very dynamic people willing to do that creative tension, to work within what I'm good at, recognizing what I'm good at and what I'm not. And now I'm going to start climbing and put my backpack on and that's how I'm going to go. And so it's a— and the truth is I have the honor now that I see the greats The titans of business, the titans of sport, they have a lot in common. They have a lot. They're different people, different things, but they have a lot in common. And I really, and I honor, I honor the greatness in all of them. I really do. It's really, I stand in awe of it.

Steve, we have so enjoyed this today. You've not only given lessons in business, but lessons in life. Nothing could be more valuable for anybody watching. I'm sure everyone's taken a huge amount from this, but I'm most struck by your humility and your love. You know, greatest of all time, we talk about GOATs. To be a GOAT, really, you have to never stop growing. And it's very obvious that your journey's still beginning. And that's pretty cool after all that you've accomplished.

I'm chewing on with everybody else, Tony, and I found a bounty. I found a wellspring that just— and I fell in, like, I didn't do anything. I just, I came upon it and through my life. And now I know it. And I'm aspirational about it. I'm intentional about it. And good luck to us all.

I hope it'll inspire— I'm sure it'll inspire anybody here to look for that within their own life and to find it in their own life as well as in their business. So thanks for taking us through it.

Steve, thank you so much for being with us.

My soul and back again.

Chris, you're a great partner. Thank you, Tony. Great to say hello. And yeah, you've been doing this for a lifetime. I'm just— we started chewing on it recently, so we're in it together. We're all in it together, Chris. Thank you.

We are in it together. Thank you.

Thank you for joining us for this fascinating conversation with Steve Young. To listen to all of our past episodes, go to holygrailinvesting.com, or you can go to Tony Robbins' YouTube channel. You also can listen to all of our podcasts on Spotify or wherever you get your content. We look forward to having you with us again for some really fascinating interviews that we're going to have in the next couple of months, some great guests that we're going to have. So we look forward to having you with us at that time. All our very best.