How to Automate Your Finances the Right Way

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This week on the Andrew Yang Podcast.

Fundamentally, we're changing how people think and interact with their money. What people are looking for is the ability to sleep better at night and do everything else that, like, should be taking their time— friends, family, their job. You shouldn't need to think about your money at every moment because you can establish a system to make it a whole lot easier and a whole lot better.

It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast for the very first time, the CEO of the brand new company Fruitful, Sam Lewis. Welcome, Sam.

Thanks for having me, Andrew. Really excited to be here.

Also, Sam is the father of a 9-month-old boy, so we were bonding over that, um, though it's been a minute since my kids were 9 months old. We also have, uh, Mike Milstein in common. So just so, so people understand how this conversation came about, um, one of Noble's best investors and first investor is my friend Mike Milstein, who I've worked with and known for years and years. And Mike wants to improve people's financial lives and has for also years and years. And so I remember a few years ago, he talked to me about the company that then became Fruitful. And wow, he managed to get some awesome CEO to step in. And you come from a financial background. You were at, I want to say, MasterCard, one of like the big companies. So what was— how did Mike entice you into this role?

Yeah, Michael's my, you know, partner and co-founder in doing this. And what he brings is the backing of a bank that he's leading that gives us the infrastructure and all the access to build the products we need to do. Then being able to pair that with how do you build a startup and iteration engine to really solve this epidemic of of people in America struggling with their finances day in, day out, and being able to pair technology with the infrastructure of a bank to be able to put the best thing forward for just what a person is looking for, which is how do I think and stress about my money less on a day-to-day basis? And you can't do that with a very traditional offering. You can't do that only with financial advice that someone's getting on TikTok or Instagram. Instead, you need to bring technology and trustworthy financial products really close together. So that you can give a person the ability to not have to think about their money on a day-to-day basis.

So, Sam, thank you for being here with us. What is Fruitful?

Fundamentally, we're changing how people think and interact with their money. So if you, if you've taken a self-driving cab before, a Waymo or one of the Teslas, you know, and you get in the backseat, there's no one in the front seat and you're like, this is what I grew up like watching The Jetsons being like, I'm in, I'm in the future. We're doing that for your money. We're building self-driving money so that when your paycheck comes in, the money goes to where it needs to go. We're helping you on investments, on your bills, on your spend so that you don't have to think about your money anymore. And we are combining that with a human partner who's an expert certified financial planner and automation and AI so that your money goes to where it needs to go. And you can just get back to everything else in your life.

You are the benign AI plus human that's just going to guide my, my savings and investments.

Exactly. Everyone thinks it's going to be 100% AI or 100% human. That's just not the case. What we're doing is blending the human guidance with AI automation so that every time you're getting paid, your money goes to where it needs to go. And you can be working towards your goals and not thinking about it on a daily basis.

Wow. And you guys have like a 2-week trial. So if someone wanted to test it out, they could just go to fruitful.com right now and talk to a real-life human being.

Exactly. In your first 7 days, we will automate your financial life.

And what—

yeah, just with a— we'd only need a couple numbers. Tell us, all right, What are you making each month? Do you have any in savings? Do you feel like you are spending more than you bring in? You'll talk to a real person. You'll be able to talk about what your goals are and be able to clearly lay out, here's what I'm— here's what I need to pay for. Here are the goals I'm saving up for. Here's what I should be spending each month. And at the click of a button, put it into action.

Holy cow, man. I know a lot of people who could use that. I feel like most Americans could use that. You know, we could use like a financial consult. And the great thing is most Americans don't want to talk about this with anybody. So happily, I'm sure you have— I mean, you know, joke about this, but like, you know, like it's like totally confidential. It's going to be really—

we're giving you a financial best friend. One of our, one of our guides uses that with, with members she works with, and people find it really hard to talk in your friend group about this. It's a It's a tough topic that's really personal and we were looking for that.

Oh God, no one talks to their friends about this. Like, who on earth would be like, hey, can you give me, you know, some help on what to do with my paycheck? I have lived a long and fruitful life. Haha. I've had many friends. I've had many friends. I've never had that conversation in my entire life, either giving or receiving. You know, no one's asked me and I'm not asked.

That's why we think there's a big market for it. It's the thing that every— yeah, it's 75% of Americans say their finances are the biggest stressor in their lives. And there are a lot of stressors out there. So we're going to try to make this one a little easier.

Let's talk about what is in the industry now and like why people aren't getting it.

There's this huge gap right now in the country where 84% of millennials and Gen Z want someone to help them with their finances. 3% of them actually are working with a traditional financial advisor, which often doesn't even speak to the needs they have. And then the rest are getting their financial advice from people on social media, which is going to be not tailored, not vetted, often pitching products that are going to be predatory or not fit for purpose for what the person is looking for. So there's this desire to have more, more advice about your money. You can get this advice and then it's nearly impossible to put it into action. And the biggest gap we're seeing, you know, with our company, with Fruitful, but writ large, is people just want things to be easier. They want to be able to have something at the click of a button that can have expert advice, put it into place, and I can go back to doing anything else with my life.

So today, okay, I totally can imagine the mismatch between— you said 84% want financial advice, then 3% get it from a traditional planner. Because let's press on this for a second, because the traditional planner probably works at the traditional bank.

Exactly.

And in order for me to get that traditional planner, I have to deposit how much money?

Usually— and these minimums are going up— usually $1 million and going up to $2.5 million. Yeah. In investable— because it's all based on investable assets. And because that's how these folks have made money. It's you're going to come in, you're going to take your investments, we're going to park them. I'm going to help set something up for you. I'm going to give you a 100-page financial plan that looks really nice and has— it's laminated, going to sit on the corner of your desk. And then I'm going to clip 1 to 2% in fees for basically doing nothing. And the reason they need to have those minimums be so high is because it's only the focus on investments and not where most Americans are concerned and stressed, which is when my paycheck comes in, what the hell happens to it? How do I just even start making any sort of progress?

So most people have a bank. They're not really that eager to try and give you financial advice unless you have a lot of money.

Exactly. To talk to a real person, you have to have those minimums, right?

So if you don't have a lot of money, then you're like, okay, like no one cares about me and my— and let's take this optimal young person, um, let's say they have $5,000 saved. Now that's not enough to meet anyone's minimum, and so they wind up in DIY land. Um, and so when they go into DIY land, which is like, I'm just gonna mess around a little bit like I did, I suppose, um, I'm, I'm, I'm guessing that the platforms they use right now to mess around are, um, maybe one of like the trading platforms or Robinhood.

Predominantly going to— it depends if you're going DIY, which is where a lot of the like influencers and social media are going to push you. Robinhood's going to be the easiest. You're going to have access to everything. It's talking about democratizing, but it's getting you into different assets and areas where you might not be ready for it or playing it much more as a game or as akin to gambling or make a parlay using your 401(k). That's not where a lot of people should be starting.

No, no, they shouldn't. That's true. I think that there is probably a, you know, or I'm certainly a mismatch there. If someone asked me, by the way, if someone asked me what to do. So number one, I think Americans should become more comfortable talking about money with their friends and family because there's like a taboo around it. So if your employer, number one, talk about money with your friends and family. Number two, if your employer makes any kind of retirement offering available to you, take advantage of it. Match or no match. Like, if it's matched, then you should freaking dial that thing all the way up and thank your employer because that's real money. But even without it, you should be like— because, and I remember being young and broke and being like, oh, like, you know, I can't afford to do this. You should just put anything in, you know, like that. That's actually— I'll make this number 3. And so an impediment for a lot of people is like, oh, I'm putting in too little money for it to matter. No, every amount matters. Take $100, $50, whatever you have, throw it in that thing. And I'm going to give you a couple of reasons for that. But one is that, you know, you put in $50 today, maybe next year you'll have $500 and be like, oh, and then it can go in the other because saving is addictive.

Just seeing the numbers go up. It gives you a sense of progress and it's all just like you start really early on. At Fruitful, we've worked with people who have been at the start of an investing journey and figuring out paying down debts, all these different pieces, all the way to people making six figures and a little further along. Everyone is stressed. Everyone feels like they're behind because like you said, it's this kind of last taboo topic where people aren't really talking about it. So you're flooded by the attention economy and things in social media. Made to feel like you're behind, made to feel like you're doing all the wrong things when in reality, just starting down the right path, getting that activation energy is the hardest piece to do.

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So first answer, if that person has $5,000, doesn't know what to do with it, the first thing you want to do is just have a 1-month emergency fund for things happen. You want to be prepared and that peace of mind can set you on that journey where—

and that emergency savings fund, you'd still want to put it someplace where it's accruing interest, right?

Easily accessible in cash, a high-yield savings account or a high-yielding account, which normally you're not going to get from a big bank because they're not paying a lot of interest on their—

One reason I love, love, love Fruitful, because you guys pay what interest on—

4%.

4%, which, by the way, check what your bank is doing, but I'm 99% sure they're not giving you 4% on cash. So already Fruitful is trying to do something noteworthy, in my opinion, by saying, look, and I agree with you, like, hey, sock some cash away, But even that cash you sock away, you should try and get interest on it.

Yeah. And the, the gap we fill is execution. The, you know, there's this old Seinfeld episode of Jerry's going to rent a car and they say and they have a reservation, but then they don't give him the car and say anyone can take a— give you a reservation. It's something else to take a reservation. And it sticks in my head when I think about what we're doing with Fruitful, because anyone can give you advice. About what to do with your money, whether it's on social media, whether you're reading the news about what the big, you know, investors are doing. Taking that and doing something with it is the hardest part. So in the very traditional world where someone's giving you a 100-page financial plan, you can't actually do anything with it.

Yeah, I love this so much. It's like, look, I don't need your advice because I get advice from all over the place. Like, I need someone to mechanically take my money and like actually buy the index fund, actually allocate it. And then optimally, I'd like them to do that every month when the money comes in.

Yeah, do that with your investments. Do that with when your paycheck is coming in, making sure you have the right amount going to savings, right amount going to your spending each month so that you don't need to think about it. You don't need to budget. That's where things are fundamentally broken in the country, is everyone— yeah, we're just reaching the end of January now. A lot of people probably had New Year's resolutions around, all right, I'm going to stick to a budget, I'm going to lay all of this out, I'm going to look at every transaction I make. That sucks. You don't want to look at every single piece. It's just— it gives you more— like, the awareness is helpful, but it gives you more stress about your money.

Instead, what people actually the term that jumps to mind for me, Sam, is set it and forget it.

Yeah. The old Ronco commercial.

Yeah. Yeah. You want to set it and forget it. I want to set it and forget it. You know, I love having just like rules-based. And this is, you know, one thing where if you do have, let's say, for example, a 401(k) or whatnot.

Yeah.

Like you can do set and forget it and the money just disappears.

Yeah. And knowing that it's going to trustworthy places and that ultimately What people are looking for is the ability to sleep better at night and do everything else that, like, should be taking their time— friends, family, their job. You shouldn't need to think about your money at every moment because you can establish a system to make it a whole lot easier and a whole lot better.

All right, so Fruitful is this company that actually blends the execution with the guidance and the advice, uh, and so you do have real humans, uh, guides, I believe, um, that will help steward someone's financial journey, but then like they'll actually implement the whole thing.

That's exactly right. Blending a human for accountability, uh, and communication with AI and automation to make everything go where it needs to go. That's where we think the future is. It's not going to be 100% human where you just have a person you're sitting across from at a desk in an old, you know, bank branch building. And it's not going to be, all right, I'm just trusting this chatbot to do everything. Like you said, money is that last taboo thing. If I'm buying a house, I need to have and trust in the information I'm getting and know that my money is going to where it needs to go. You want to be able to blend the communication and accountability and compassion of a person to also sign off on the automation of what can help this scale and move things to where they need to go.

So how does the pricing work? And is it the case that, you know, I would want to have a certain amount of money in order to use Fruitful?

So it's a bit similar to what you guys are doing at Noble, where the pricing model of old, whether you're from a big investing side where you're clipping fees or you're a traditional bank that is not paying you a lot in interest, selling you products you probably don't need. Instead, we flip that entirely. It's on its head because people want transparency. They want something genuine. They want to know, okay, I'm going to pay you this. What are you going to give me? And that's why Fruitful is one of the only things out there in the financial services space. You go to our website, boom, this is what you pay. This is exactly what you get. So it's $48 a month where we are able to pass all— pass back all of the interest in cash rewards on your spend to just make this really simple. And something that a member has upfront trust in where their money is going and where and why it's going there.

Well, and if I get a guide, is it my guide?

Yeah, that's your guide.

Wow.

So you can talk to the guide over chat whenever we help you set up your money system in your first month. That, that building foundation is the most important part from when you sign up. You choose your, your guide that you're working with. Within a week we're going to change your entire financial life. We're going to build out very straightforward view of here are the bills and the things you have that you have to pay— your rent, your cell phone bill.

And this is where it gets interesting. I mean, it's interesting from the get, but so if I had like gobs of money, um, you know, like hundreds of thousands, you would still just charge me $48 a month? I mean, like, sorry, that, that would That one's a thinker because, you know, most of the time if you do end up with lots of money, then like you're more lucrative.

And that— yeah, that's where a lot of the industry is broken. In my past career, I worked with a lot of big banks, a lot of the big investors around how are you squeezing out that every last dollar, helped big banks build their credit card programs or helped the institutional investors figure out how are we going to increase assets people are going to have. And ultimately, in a credit card program, the most lucrative people are the people who aren't paying their credit card balances every month. That's what people are trying to target. Instead, we want to make that dynamic much healthier, make it— this is what you're going to pay, this is what you're going to get. There's nothing secret or hidden here. People want that level of transparency. They're demanding it. And there just hasn't been something in a— in this, like, mass market that has done that yet.

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So I don't know if you saw— I'm sure you did because you're in this industry, but there was this semi-viral story in The New York Times about people that were making not that much money, like $50,000 or $60,000, and then they were spending $10,000+ on DoorDash. And then they're being mocked and judged. The journalist was like, oh, they're like stressed out and overworked and like 12-hour shift. It's like hit the button, DoorDash. But then other people are like, oh my God, you spend that much on DoorDash. First, you saw this.

I did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you did. So, you know, I try not to judge anyone's financial decisions. I will say that that does seem like a bad way to get ahead. And I do vividly remember when I was in my 20s, I would call the takeout place and then pick it up because I didn't want to pay the delivery guy. And I was like, I'm an able-bodied, whatever, 25-year-old, like, I'm gonna like—

and it gets you outside.

It gets you outside. I mean, there are some times it was shitty out and like, you know, maybe I sprung for delivery, but I do remember it's like, I am not going to pay this delivery person. Though that was like, you know, 20-something years ago and the standards have changed. So when you see a story like that, do you think, oh my gosh, if only we could talk to that person and let them know how much they're spending on food delivery?

It's a, it's a hard story because you understand the piece of the person be like, I'm working, I'm really stressed and tired. This just makes it easy. I have to eat or feed my family. The part where I think people can use help is awareness around that, but then also how do I— what should I do? Because that's what people are missing is like, all right, how— what is this preventing me from doing if I actually change my habits slightly? Trying to ask someone, hey, completely change your approach to life is nearly impossible. But can you turn the dial down this way to turn your savings and goals up a couple— up a couple of notches? That's a whole lot easier. And there's so much judgment around how people are spending their money. More power to the people who shared their stories in that article. That's hard to do.

Did they give their names? I can't remember.

Yeah, hopefully, hopefully just went, went last name.

Look, again, no, I mean, you know, I stress, I even did have a conversation with Zach about this where I mean, now I got to say, like, I, I order in a fair amount and I do not go to the restaurant to pick it up. But, you know, at this point I'm a middle-aged dad, you know, dad of two and running a company. I mean, you know, it's like your tradeoffs change over time.

Yeah, it's what you should have.

That's—

we call it free to spend, which is just a bucket of money that you have to spend each week or each month. You don't have to think about, okay, I'm stressing about each and every purchase.

Free to spend, eh?

It's— so you don't need to line item budget and think about, all right, I should do this for groceries, this for clothes, this for going out with friends. Instead, you have that one number and you can actually stick to that one number versus trying to overcomplicate it. So for some people, that free to spend might be predominantly DoorDash because that's what's great for them. I think that's where the no judgment and building a system can come together.

People sometimes think I'm like a cowboy because I've done a few—

missing the hat.

I've done a few cowboy things in my life. You know, most, most memorably run for president, which is like sort of a mavericky thing. But I love the vanilla investing approach, in part because I don't want to spend my life trying to like chase down like a nook and cranny, this and that. It's like, look, set and forget it. Just buy the index fund, you know, make sure I'm covered, do the right balance. Like, you know, don't want to be a hero, but don't want to be a moron. I don't want to leave stuff on the table. It sounds like I would be an awesome fit.

Exactly. And there are going to be people who want— who still want to have that fun of I'm going to go play and pick some stocks.

And you can still do that on the side, though it's still not smart. But, but continue.

Yeah. And we'll help you figure out what's the amount you should risk there. And the best part about what we do is you say that person come in, try for 3 months, get that knowledge, see how it's going. We're betting on ourselves that You come in, you get this system for what's going to happen with your money every time you get paid, every time you are building towards your goals.

You need a system. You—

the best part is you click a button and it implements it so you don't actually have to do anything. And we're betting on ours. Yeah, we're betting on ourselves that after those 3 months you're going to be used— have used this system. You can't walk away from it because you're like, how could I ever go back to a point where I'm trying to do this manually where I'm stressed about this.

Yeah, no, I just want to set and forget it and let's do the thing.

Yeah.

Let's say the all-in cost was like $500 a year. And so if I had $10,000, that's 5%. Um, and so you think, okay, will this increase my efficiency or returns by that amount? And that might be like too much. But then as soon as you get to a certain amount, then it becomes a pittance. Because at, you know, at $100,000, $500 is like half of 1%, which is much, much lower than any of these traditional institutions will probably like stick it to you. And their advice will be, you know, a little bit aligned to their interests, honestly. Whereas you guys, it'll be like purely on the customer side. And so in many ways, you show up with $10,000 and then you say, okay, look, like help me get to $100,000 over like a certain period of years. And, you know, at that point, then the $500, like you're not even going to freaking notice. Like it would be— and it is going to be a lot less than what you'd be paying just about any other institution. Am I getting that right? Yeah.

And you're, you're getting wins early and along the way. And that's what I think most people are missing. In this convoluted web of personal finances in this country is people think the game is rigged. They think there's not something out there for them. It's either way too expensive or they're put into products that they shouldn't be having. And you just start making progress. You can see it and you can feel it. And that gives more hope in a time where a lot of people need hope and see— seeing that path.

Yeah, I mean, you're right. Like, Noble's trying to do that by reducing your wireless bill from these mega institutions that are sort of extractive. And I'm sure the banks are somewhat extractive in their way.

Wireless companies and banks, two industries with very large incumbents who are just market makers in their decisions and what they do. And there's very little incentive to innovate. And what y'all are doing with, with Noble Mobile, what we're going to do, what others are in the industry are working to do is challenge that because it doesn't have to be that way where my cell phone bill can just go up because they decided it was going to. And I get this added fee and there's no transparency to it. And also, hey, now my service has gone down, but you have to log in to 4 different places to pull a credit. These larger places can do that because they have the customer base and power, but instead The— there needs to be innovation that challenges that because that's what consumers actually want and need.

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That's all it is. People have too many decisions they need to make each day. And to your exact point, with your— if you had to make a decision every time your paycheck came in you're usually probably going to end up spending that short term.

Probably. Yeah.

And not working towards long-term and medium-term goals or even just I want to take this trip and I want to when I come back from it, not feel like I now owe a lot of money. Instead, I want to go on that trip and actually spend time doing it. I want to know I'm on that path to saving for college or have a, have an outlet when I'm trying to combine finances with my partner or we're getting married or having a big moment like having a kid. In my and my wife's world, we, you know, our son started daycare 6 months ago. That should have been a, you know, enormous new expense, huge stressor. Okay, where does this money come from? Instead, because we had a system and we had been saving for it, it was a, okay, let's just put that on autopay. We know our money is going there. We've already made that one-time decision of how we're adjusting our finances. And you don't need to relive that moment every month. People have too many things they need to do and figure out all the time. Let's take finances out of that equation just to make it a little bit easier.

Fruitful for the lazy among us. Um, I mean, we all should be lazy in this way. Um, well, congratulations. Uh, I know you guys, um, already have like, you know, hundreds or thousands, uh, of customers. And so, you know, you figured a lot out. You have at this point, like how many, like, trained guides or— and you, by the way, if you go to Fruitful.com, you actually can see the guides and their backgrounds. You know, they're, they're on your side. If someone wants to sign up with Fruitful, how can they best do so? Is just Fruitful.com?

Fruitful.com. You get started for free, talk to a person, and they'll lay out within your first conversation, here's what we're going to do with your money. And you can at the end of that just click go on an easier financial life. This whole thing is how do you make progress quickly? How do you communicate things clearly? That's all people are looking for in their financial life is to how do I think a little bit less about it?

Yeah, they will give you essentially like your money back within 14 days if you're not into it. So anyone here who wants someone to talk to them about improving their financial life for the future, you should go to fruitful.com and take them up on it.

Yeah, hardest thing is just getting started. You get over that hump, we'll help you get you the rest of the way.

Well, that is a fine principle for us all. Like, hardest part is getting started and just get started. And Fruitful is one way to do it. And it's essentially on their dime because they believe in themselves. And so if you're not into it, then you can just say, well, you know, not for me. 14-day money-back guarantee, I want to say. Well, Sam, congratulations to you for taking this on. It's a very, very big vision and mission, but it's so needed. What's going on out there is like, it breaks my heart, honestly. Like, you know, all these people whose futures are not like as optimistic as they could be if they just had someone like you on their side.

Yeah, it's what keeps us going every day. As you know, building a startup is really hard, but we see it in feedback from our members on a daily basis of, hey, you've— I've paid off all these accounts, or I now see a path to paying for college for my kids. It keeps you going. And knowing that you're having an impact, uh, is just a sign, hey, we're on to something.

Well, you definitely are, man. It's a big honking problem. So more power to you and the Fruitful team. Um, well, yeah, would love to keep this conversation going.

Yeah, absolutely.