https://www.listennotes.com/e/9c74ccb0e89741bdb6ada861ade3c80b

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In my case, with free soling, the consequences are almost always death. Like for the most part, if you fall off, you're going to die.

We understand the psychology of excellence and we understand what a great mindset means.

And how to be great with fear.

And then there's Alex Honnold. Welcome back. Or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I AM your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high performance psychologist. Now the whole idea behind these conversations, it's pretty simple to sit with the extraordinaries and learn about how they work from the inside out. Today's guest is legendary climber Alex Honnold, best known for his free solo ascent of El Capitan. Meaning climbing nearly 3,000ft of sheer rock.

Face, no ropes, no safety lines.

All of this was featured in the Oscar winning documentary Free Solo.

You have to have a lot of not just self belief, but belief in the goodness of the world in order to put yourself out there and try something that hasn't been done or like try to push in your 20s. You're like constantly surprising yourself. You're like, oh, I did something I didn't do, I could do was incredible. Like now I'm rewriting what I think I'm capable of. It's freaking hard work and especially as I get older it's like probably harder and Harder work, you surprise yourself with your own success.

Less often we explore the mindset behind a climber. How Alex organizes his inner life towards mastery.

Most people that say they're afraid of heights are actually just afraid of like falling off an edge and dying. You're like, well that's totally well founded. You should be afraid of falling to your death. I don't want to fall off something, it's just that I'm very confident that I'm not going to fall off most things.

How he manages risk, consequence and fear.

With a rare clarity.

I would prefer to use risk to describe the likelihood of something happening and the consequences being what will happen if, if that thing does happen.

We also talk about fatherhood and how he's no longer just chasing the next set.

I still love sending, but I know that sending the hardest things in the world will only last for, you know, at the most another decade. But what do I do with the other 40 or 50 years? I'm kind of like, you know, I want to build like a healthy, well rounded future.

I want to invite you to listen for his deep, deeper framework and how he has this rare honesty to get.

Right down into the truth.

Now I'm starting to think about it a little bit more because my 3 year old might remember me if I die at this point maybe.

So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with perhaps the most.

Significant mind in all of sports, the.

One and only Alex Honnold.

Alex, when it comes to, it comes to the folks that I think are the most significant in the world of athletics, you sit tall on the mountaintop here. And so I'm, I, I love the way you've designed your life, what you've done and how you carry yourself. So I'm stoked to sit with you because I think the way that you've done what you've done is really special and you have a lot to teach us. So thank you for coming in.

I appreciate that. I don't know have anything to teach but, but let's, let's chat and find out.

I figured you'd say that.

That's all part of it. I'm just, I'm just living, I'm struggling the same as everybody else, just doing my best.

Yeah, yeah. When you say struggle, like, do you mean that in like a, like a suffering struggle or like a.

No, I mean, no, I mean like aspiring to do your best all the time, you know, but same, you know, I have two little kids, I'm like navigating parenthood I'm constantly trying to decide if I'm doing the right thing. Like, should I be training more, should I be training less, should I be resting, should I be going harder? You know, it's like, what should I be spending my time on? I mean, it's all the same sort of things that everybody deals with.

It's, you know, it's definitely the same stuff that I wrestle with. So how old are your kids?

One and three.

One and three. Let's start here for a minute. When, when my son was born. So he's now 16. When my son was born, a friend of mine asked me this question. It'd be fun to ask you this question. Same question, Mike, if you had the chance to go to Mars and you'd be the first one to go to Mars, the only hiccup is that you've got a 50% success rate. Would you go? And instantly I'll tell you my answer, my reflective answer. But what is yours?

Oh, I'd kind of have to think about it, but I definitely would at least consider it.

Yeah, I think that you'd probably lean on the side of like, yeah, there's something here. There's something.

It's hard to say though. I mean, I think I would wind up leaning against that because I don't have any particular set of skills that would suit exploring Mars, you know, like, like I should not be the person to go to Mars, even though it'd be amazing. And like, that's, that's cool and doing a first is cool, but, but it just shouldn't be me because you're full of first.

Like, that's something that you've lived. You know, there's a, there's a ethos in your world of climbing that like when you do a first ascent or whatever, it might be that that's a thing.

Yeah, yeah, it's great. I mean, it's nice to. Yeah, maybe that's just sort of like explorer's gene or something, but just the idea of pushing boundaries a little bit, like doing something new. I mean, it's exciting.

Yeah. And so then he sweetens so instantly I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going. And then I paused and I said, whoa, wait a minute. It's like my son was like 6 months old. Like, oh, wait, hold on, I got a six month old. I go, I don't know right now? And then, so then he sweetened it and he said, what if the whole thing was designed that you're the one that saves the planet and you either go or don't go. So he added like a social responsibility on it. And I was like, yeah.

Then you obviously go right.

Then you obviously go right. And then he says, okay, if I take that away, what's the hesitation? And so obviously you go right for the social responsibility. But if, if that's not on the table, let's go back to your response. Like, do you bring your children into that decision making factor or is it because I was like planted in two worlds.

I was like, well, I mean, you having a six month old, I honestly wouldn't. Because your six month old wouldn't remember anyway. It's like it doesn't matter to them.

Yeah.

You know, it's like now I'm starting to think about a little bit more because my 3 year old might remember me if I die at this point maybe. But you know, I mean, and this sounds really callous but, but it is sort of true that, that if I die, you know, my wife will probably find somebody else eventually. Or you know, we have a rich community. Either way, it's like my kids wouldn't be totally bereft of, of like they might not have their dad. Dad, but they would have plenty of people in their lives that look after them and love them and help take care of them and like they're not going to be left alone, you know, so you're kind of like, I don't know.

That's a cool feeling.

Well, I mean, and that's because of your friends. Yeah, friends and family and, and my wife's like a young attractive woman, you know, like she find somebody eventually, you know what I mean? After hopefully a healthy period of mourning. But like, but I mean she hates it when I talk about that kind of stuff because she's like, oh, that's so, so callous sounding. But I'm kind of like, people lose parents all the time. It's not as if you're doomed, you know, like my dad died when I was 19 and that's obviously a blow, but it's not going to lead to a terrible life necessarily. You know, it's like. Or it doesn't have to.

Yeah. So how did, how did losing your father as a teenager impact you, like looking back at it now?

I was actually just reading this interesting book. I think it was a Malcolm Gladwell book, like maybe Dave and Goliath. I just read it on a flight. But, but he had a whole aside about prominent historical figures who lost parents at young ages. And I have kind of thought that encountering like loss at a young Age just encourages you to go a little harder in a way, because you're just reminded that life is short. Sort of like, oh, I have a finite amount of time. You got to use it.

Yeah, that definitely would have shaped you for sure.

And in my particular case, I think it also took off a little bit of the sort of parental pressure to, like, stay on a. On a path, you know, not that my parents were explicitly pressuring me that hard, but they sort of expected me to go to college, expected me to wind up, and, you know, I would have probably wound up an engineer or something. But then my dad dying kind of left the door open a little bit to, like, do other things, like maybe. Maybe not finish my degree. Anyway, I dropped out of college. So I think that allowed a little more flexibility in a way.

You know, like, let's say it's a heavyweight boxer or a football player. You know, there's lots of scenarios I could pull in that oftentimes I'll say, well, once I get in the ring and I get my first hit or I get hit, then I settle down, because I know it's not the big, bad monster that I had imagined. Like, it's. It's another skilled person. They're dangerous, you know, but I'm okay. And I think when we face hardships, one of the benefits to come, like, you can go through a hardship, like a loss of a parent, and we could have a thousand scenarios where you could find the track of post traumatic stress disorder, or you could find the track for post traumatic growth. You could find either path. And what I hear you saying is, like, yeah, I had a real shocker in my life, and it, like, it. It was materially important, and it actually opened me up to go a little further.

Yeah. And actually, I mean, both my grandfathers on both sides and my father all died within sort of three years, like in late teens. And so I think.

Oh, so you had bang, bang, bang.

Yeah, yeah. And not, like, not crazy traumatic things. You know, the grandparents were super old. They died. Natural causes. Like, it was all. It's all fine. But it definitely was a. A stark reminder, you know, that life's finite and at a particularly important time of life, too. You know, I was. I was 19, I guess, when my dad died. So you're sort of like, oh, what am I doing in my life? You know, what am I doing?

University, like, yeah, you're out of high school.

Yeah, you're already. I'd done my first year university and was. Was not thriving. I was sort of like, not it wasn't. I wasn't. I wasn't well adapted to university lifestyle, so, like, I was mostly just spending my time climbing and not. Not. Not that psyched.

So you were already kind of.

I was already searching.

Yeah. And you were already really good at climbing, like you were getting recognized at that point.

I wasn't that good. I was. I'd gotten second at nationals, but that's only because the really good guys had stopped doing the youth competitions. They. They were all competing as adults, actually, just by.

I didn't know.

I was like, okay, I was not a child prodigy. I was. I was not good.

Glad you brought that up. Yeah. You were psyched. I stoked on it.

You loved it. Yeah, I loved it. But I was not by any means great. And it's. It's interesting, just by sheer coincidence, the region I grew up in, Northern California, wound up sort of creating like, four professional climbers of all the same age. And they've all been better than me my whole life, basically. Who. Who are.

Who are these climbers?

Uh, so Ethan Pringle, who's still a professional climber. Um, he's never as well known as. As some other climbers, but he beat me through all of childhood and everything until like, maybe age 14 or 15 when he started competing as an adult and instead and doing, like, international competitions and making money. And so then. Then I was able to do a little better because he left the category. But then also, you know, Kevin Jorgensen, who. Who freed the Dawn Wall with. With Tommy Caldwell?

Y.

He was also in my age group. Same region, same everything. But he also competed as an adult at an early age because he was so good. I mean, Chris Sharma had come from the same region. He's. He was like the leading climber of the last generation, basically. I didn't compete with him. He's slightly different, but. But same area. And so, anyway, I grew up thinking I wasn't that good because everybody else is way better. And so I have a whole new.

Appreciation for you, because part of the formation years, you were not the one.

No, no, I sucked. I sucked. I mean, I didn't suck. I was a good climber. I was not a great climber, but I was really into it, and I love doing it. I did all the time. And that's. I think that's an important distinction, because.

I think it is.

You know, people. People look at some YouTube clip and they're like, oh, that guy's like. You know, people. If you're thinking on the nature versus nurture spectrum, they're always sort of like, oh, that guy is just a freak. You know, there's something wrong with him. He can like do these things. And you're like, no, I spent like 30 years practicing this thing. Getting slowly getting better at this thing. Still not even that good at the thing. It's like just working away, working.

It's like, what do you think? I'm going to go back to dad in a minute. But what do you think that you are? What are you good at? Yes.

So little. So little.

Come on. Being humble. So you know you've earned your nickname. No big deal.

No, I think the main thing actually is. Is psych.

Like the mental part of it.

Well, no, it's like meaning the motivation stoke. Yeah, the stoke for it.

Yeah.

Because I think, particularly with free soling, which is what I'm most well known for, like the climbing ropeless, I think that volume matters. Like having done tons of reps, basically, like doing a lot of climbing. And I've always been motivated enough to go climbing all the time. Like always have the adventure, like do the thing, hike out to the wall, even in bad conditions and like try. And so I think that has allowed me to get the, the volume required to be a decent soloist. Um, I mean that, that's. Those same traits make you sort of a worse boulder in a way, let's say. Because there are other aspects of climbing where it's better to not do that much volume. It's better to sort of focus high intensity efforts. It'd be like the difference between ultra running and. And sprinting. Let's say.

You can't do it.

Yeah. You can't do both.

Yeah.

Physiologically it's like different things.

Yeah.

So I've always been really into sort of ultra climbing, you know, tons and tons of climbing, Wide variety conditions, wide variety of styles. And that makes you feel pretty comfortable for the free soling. It doesn't make you the strongest climber, doesn't make you a great boulder.

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So because of that, you've had lots of reference points so that you can map against something when you're in a heavy situation. Like I've seen or felt or smelt something like this. An answer is likely in this region.

Yeah. And not panic in, like weird situations, you know, when stuff starts to go a little sideways. Like literally last week I had a whole soloing misadventure, which kind of reminded me of my 20s. I was like this. This feels like something I would have done a decade ago is like a total botch.

And how old are you now?

I'm 30. I turned 40 this summer.

Yeah, Congrats.

Yeah.

Okay, good. So what was the, what was the debauchery here?

Well, I went out. I went out to go scrambling in the afternoon and. And scrambling means, like to go free zoling. So I was going to solve this like 2000 foot wall, this like, thing by my house.

Average day for you? 2000 free soul.

Yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah. Kind of average. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was going to be sort of an active rest day. It was a rest day from like real hard climbing. But it was kind of going to be a casual outing anyway. But there were 50 consequential wall. I don't know if it ever been solid before. So I mean, but it's not like rad. It's not cutting edge.

Okay.

Like, I wouldn't have. Nobody would know about it. It's not like reported or anything. Yeah, I know.

I'm just giving some context because it's like no big deal. I'm gonna go do this thing. So free soling for you is not something that happens once a year. You gear up for it. Camera's on. I'm gonna try this thing.

No, I mean, the big ones are kind of like that. The things you do for film projects, the things you do for TV or whatever. And then occasionally the things you do for your personal projects where you're like, this is cutting edge. This is rad. But in order to do the things that are cutting edge, you have to do tons of things that aren't cutting edge.

That's right.

You know, it's like you have to practice. Yeah. So. So in this particular case, I went out Practicing. And, and I mean it was supposed to be like 50 mile an hour gusts, but you never know with canyons depending on the direction of the wind. Anyway, I was like, oh, that's nice. And so when I was hiking into the canyon, it's really late season right now. A lot of these routes you normally do more in the winter when it's cooler, but right now it's like kind of hot. But because it was windy, I was like, oh, it's kind of nice. And I was like, conditions were fine. Anyway, it turns out as I got higher up the wall, it was like ripping wind, like psycho wind. And then the hardest part of the route was like 700ft up. And, and basically it was on this like really smooth panel in the center of this wall and it was like insane wind. And I like basically wasn't really able to climb because it was like too intense. Like you're being shaken. Basically it's like hard to even hang on because you're being like pushed back and forth by 50 mile an hour gust.

And then, and just to paint the picture one more time, you have nothing to rely on. You've got your hands.

Yeah, I'm just holding your head.

And you're on the side of the 1500ft up at this point.

No, 700ft up.

700Ft. And if you make a mistake, a 700 foot fall.

Yeah.

Is a roll.

So then, so then the thing that made it all sort of traumatic was that in the middle of all this, it's like so crazy. I mean also it's hard to describe how intense wind like that is, but like, so my backpack straps are like slapping me in the face and like hitting everything. And I had no shirt on. And so like the straps are like slapping you and you're like ah, everything hurts. And then my chalk bag kept flipping over and basically like dusting my whole body with chalk so like you can't really see and you're like ah. I was like this is intense. Anyway, and then during all this it's like 50 mile an hour updraft, like basically my pants are like going, my shorts are blowing like crazy and my phone fell out of my pocket and, and I was the only car in this like remote sort of four wheel parking lot thing and, and I drove an electric car there and so my phone is my key and I was kind of like, oh, you know, now I'm screwed. And so, and so then I, and I'm like near the end of the hardest part in the center of this wall. But then I face this dilemma. If I topped out the mountain, like, if I made it to the top of the 2,000 foot wall, then to hike all the way back around to go look for my phone would. I'd be sort of pushing it towards dark. I mean, it's kind of a big thing to some of the mountain and the descent. And then go back to the base and look for your. So I wound up down, climbing straight back down, just like reversing. I was like, time to just abandon ship. I was like, this is not my day. But it was kind of a bummer because I'd already done the whole hard part basically. So I had to reverse the whole hard part.

And you went down. Did you go down because of the wind conditions or your phone?

Both, basically. I was like, I kind of hit a point where I was like, I don't think I can go up. It's like too intense with the wind too crazy. And I. I mean, when I felt my phone fall in my pocket, I stopped and like watched it go all the way to the ground. So you, you know, you want to keep eyes on to see where it lands so you can go find it?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you're just like normal. Yeah, well, I mean, it's kind of normal for you. I mean, what, like anytime you're climbing, even when you're climbing with gear, if you drop something, you like, really make an effort to see where it goes, you can find it again.

Okay.

Because like, otherwise scouring a canyon. Yeah, it's like, you know, it's a whole mountain side and you're just like wandering around looking for a broken thing. It's like not that easy to find when you drop stuff on a mountain.

Okay, so I want to. I've got a.

Sorry, this is a whole weird story.

I've got a really tight question I want to ask you, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you a preamble to get to it. This wasn't long ago, so you and I are not at all comparable in any way when it comes to sport. Okay, so it was, I don't know how long ago, but there was a big swell and it's in my, my local break here in la. And I, you know, I'm not out of shape, but I'm not in kind of nowhere near top shape to, to surf this. But I'm like, I got it. So grab my board and I'm on the beach. I'm looking at him like, oh, it's.

A little bigger than I Thought it.

Always looks a little bigger from the bottom or something, right? Oh, it's a bit. Little bigger. Okay, good. You know what? I know I'm reading the current. I know exactly. I'm going to hug the jetty. Okay, good. I'm good.

You're like, I wrote a whole book about performance mindset. Here I go, here I go, here I go. Right?

And so. And there's a bunch of people on the beach are like, yeah, yeah, come on, Mike, go. I'm, like, listening to that. I'm looking at it, and I know that I haven't surfed, you know, kind of the size in a minute. And I'm hugging the. The. So I get in. I'm good. My mindset is good. And I'm hugging on the jetty to kind of take this rip out to stay out of the impact zone. And I don't know what happens. I can't stay in. In the current. So now I'm flo. I'm. I'm kind of drifting to where the impact zone is.

Yeah.

Okay. So I'm right now in a problem zone. And I could. I should have probably turned. I should have turned back around and gone in and tried again, But I was in this mindset. Like this. This walk of shame was not something I'm going to do. This was a dangerous mindset. This is not what I should have done. Okay. And so I did eventually get out outside. I was so exhausted. Triceps are like. Like blown up, like, not what you want to have happen. My whole back is lit up, and I'm exhausted out back. I had no business being out there at this day. So. So long story to get to this very crisp moment is that I didn't listen to my better judgment. So can you explain how you work with your mind when you've got some social pressures and you've got some ego pressures happening for you as well?

Well, in this case, in this particular storm, there's basically no social pressure because I'm alone in the canyon. It's just. So. It's just ego. Basically just my personal.

Yeah.

And. And, yeah, I mean, I was in very much a similar situation where it's like, you know, it was very windy at the bottom of the route, and I probably could have bailed then. But the thing is, I don't want to bail for bad conditions until they're actually untenable, until you have to bail. And in this particular case, I'm sort of like, okay, well, I gave my absolute best shot, and then I had to Bail, you know. And so, yeah, the conservative thing would be to give up sooner, but you're kind of like. But then you would spend the rest of the day wondering, like, well, maybe it wasn't that windy. I mean, as it turns out, it was like, much windier as I got higher. I think just the nature of the canyon and the smooth. The sheerness of the wall at that. In that area and stuff. But that's not something that you could totally predict from below. Um, I mean, you know, you're like, oh, it's a windy day and it's forecast to be windy, but if it's like a south wind and the canyon, basically it just depends on the geometry of the canyon and like, the actual specific aspect of the face. And so kind of like, well, tried my best, found out that I couldn't do it and. And went home.

Like, so you don't run into a tension there, or are you really good with answering the call of danger? Like, the juice is not worth the squeeze? Because for me, it's a. There's a thin line between pushing just past a comfort zone into, like a danger zone where there is a consequence. But if you don't go to that place, you don't unlock the thing that you need to unlock to keep growing.

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I mean, in this particular case, I feel like I pushed well out of my comfort zone and was like, okay, I pushed as far as I'm willing to push, and this is not working out. And. And now I'm bailing.

And how did you develop.

And then I down climbed very carefully.

Which, you know, it's down climbing is more dangerous than up climbing.

It's just. I mean, it's kind of the same.

It's.

But it's. But it's challenging.

The reason I ask is. Cause there might be an added challenge, like, oh, I'm going to do. Oh, one hold. Okay, good. I got this. Like, there's a. There's a target. There's a more confident posture I can imagine on a normal route up.

Yeah.

But then when you hit a zone where it's like, this is too dangerous, it very easily could flood the whole circuit, which is like, oh, I got to go into protection mode. This is beyond my. My limit. So now as I'm climbing down, I'm actually in a different body because of my mindset.

That's interesting. I actually don't think I experience that so much. I think it's more like I hit a point where I was like, my goal was to climb the wall. My new goal is to climb down the wall and, and now I'm just going to confidently move down instead of up. You know, it's like the same kind of. It was just kind of like I had one goal going into the day and now I've reached a certain point where I've completely reset my priorities for the day. It's like my new goal is to down climb, find my phone and make it out of here.

How do you do that? How do you maintain the clarity of, of goal even when you're in a, an, an edge pushing moment?

Well, not to say there weren't some moments in the middle where I was like, this is anus. What am I doing?

What am I doing?

This is horrible. You know, especially with like the chalk blowing my face and the straps hitting me and I was like, oh, it's really hard to focus. And you know, but beneath all the external, like the physical sensations and like the, the challenge of it, I mean, there's still some, you know, you hope, some kernel of calm on the inside. It's like, and now we'll just do the next correct thing which is in this case, going, going down.

Yeah.

Very carefully.

Do you, is that how you speak to yourself? Like more technical or do you speak to yourself more motivational, more like coach to have your own back or is it truly like, okay, find the next hold. Good. Okay, that's good. Next one. What am I going to do?

Like maybe more technical like that? I don't know. I don't even know if there is that much real self talk. I should, should there be?

I don't like, keep going like what.

I mean, in this particular case it was very, just like I was like, I wanted to go up. I no longer want to go up. Now I'm going down. And it was just mechanical. Like, okay, use this hold. I mean, I basically was reversing all the moves that I just done. I'd never climbed the route before, so as I'd been going up it, I was figuring it out sort of like, okay, here's a hold over here. There's a hold over there. Here's how I stay in balance despite the really, really strong wind. And so then on the way down, I was just like, okay, I'm now reversing these moves very mechanically. Like, put feet here, hands there, stay balanced.

Yeah. So it's truly task focused. Your attention is focused solely on the task.

Yeah. And that's particularly true on something that, that I haven't climbed before. In this case. Because I actually do have to think about the holds. You know, it was, it was something. Cuz sometimes climbing can feel automatic if you know the sequences really well. But in this case I had to actively scan the wall and like look for the feet, look for the hands and kind of where I bailed it was important to look around because there was a stuff out to the right, stuff out to the left. You had to like look for the clues, you know, like little tiny traces of chalk from previous climbers, things like that.

So let's. Let me see if I can combine two things like we were talking about when your dad passed away and there's. It can close the aperture of potential or open it. Post traumatic growth is kind of an opening of the aperture. It sounds like you had. I'm not saying that you didn't go through all the stresses of losing a loved one, but you found your way in an opening to keep to, to kind of take your life by the. By the horns, if you will. And if we square that with reversing your climb, it sounds like there's a, there's a string between these two which is like no, I'm not going to allow this moment to flood my system to put me into an over traumatized state. Like I'm just. You're pretty mechanical at that point.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, so I've talked quite a lot with some of my climbing friends about this. Like why some experiences, why two climbers can have the same experience and one comes out of it totally traumatized and another comes out of it. It's like that's just a normal day. And, and actually even while I was up on the wall, I mean, and, and just to be clear, this whole experience I'm talking about the other day with, with soloing in the wind and whatever, it's not as if this like some unique experience for me, like this kind of things happen tons. Like it used to happen a lot more when I was younger just because I made worse decisions probably. So I haven't had anything quite like that in a while. But variations on that theme happen not infrequently. You know, it's like where you get into something a little beyond what you expected and you have to sort of manage one way or another or retreat or whatever. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, while I was up in having that experience, I mean it did occur to me I was like, is this the kind of thing that like ends a soloing career not because you fall and die, but because you're like traumatized from it and you're like, I never want to, to do this again. But yeah, I don't think so. I think it's just, you know, it's.

Just, I, I just.

A bad day in the wind.

I think that's what you do though. I, I think that you've got this model that you use everything in your world, internally and externally to build. So going down is like, you know what? I made a good choice.

Yeah, I'm a safe climber. Well, actually so. And I even justified it to myself because the thing I was trying to do was supposed to be like 14 pitches, which is like the lengths of the segments of the climb. And then some easy scrambling to the top. And I did the first six or seven and then reversed it. So I wound up doing like 12 or 14 pitches. Cuz, you know, you kind of double what you did.

Okay.

And I was like, well, it's basically the same as if I climbed the route. Cause I also did the whole hard part and then down climb the whole hard part. So I was kind of like, well, even though I technically failed on the thing that I was trying to climb, I was like, I actually did as much hard climbing as I was intending to do for the day. So I was like, I'll call the day a success. And I found my phone at the bottom and even though it was completely destroyed, it still functioned. The Bluetooth still functioned to unlock my car and I was able to drive home. I was like, what a day. You know, I was like, all right.

I think, I think that though I'm.

Not trying to repeat things like that, you know, it was a mistake.

You're not trying to repeat any of this.

Yeah, I was like, this is, this is a mistake.

But I think that what you just described is maybe one of your crown jewels.

The, the growth mindset around it.

Well, just the way that you frame situations, you have your back, you build, you use your external world and your internal world, no matter what the circumstances are. And you are, you're using it to take a step forward, whatever that is. Like, yeah, that was a success. Whoa. I did this many and this many. And you know what? And I reached a limit.

Good job.

Like, it's hard to get to the limit.

Yeah, go me.

Go me.

It's like, I made a lot of bad decisions today, but go me.

But never sounds like that in your head, does it?

No, no. On the inside you're like, what idiot? Well, I spent the whole evening at the freaking Apple store and Then like adt like changing my like new phone, switching my number because the thing was shattered. Like it was all kind of a debacle and I basically wasted my whole evening like dealing with, with my stupid decision. I was like this was a bad choice and I like wasted a lot of time.

And so similar to like we find yourselves, you find yourself in a heavy situation again, I'm going to say this one more time. I think the crown jewel is you don't say to yourself like you said maybe what an idiot. But it doesn't, it's not like it gets in. It's not like it corrupts your self esteem, your self worth, your self confidence. It doesn't corrupt you.

Yeah, that's, that's probably, I've never really thought about it that way but yeah, it's probably kind of true. How did you. I think that I'm very optimistic person. Basically like believe in human goodness and the general like positive trend of the universe. And maybe because I grew up seeing Star Trek, you know, my mom was really into Star Trek, I grew up like you know, but it's very Utopian. It's very like positive, future focused and.

I don't know, I think you maybe appreciate this is that I haven't met a World's Best. Now including you in this conversation that isn't fundamentally optimistic.

Well yeah, you have to have a lot of not just self belief but belief in the goodness of the world in order to put yourself out there and try something that hasn't been done or like try to push, you know, it's like you have to believe it's possible if you're gonna push like that period. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that's true for entrepreneurs and everything as well. It's like, you know, if you're trying to like create the next big company or do something, you have to believe that it can succeed.

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Do you have clarity of a compelling future that you're working toward?

I don't know. That's a good. I mean, instead of sitting in chairs, we should be lying on a sofa. Like I need to recline. Be like, okay, you need a little pendulum. Like that's like straight therapy.

Poorly lit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're turned on the lights in Here.

Yeah, right.

I. I don't know. I mean, I mean, are you asking like, what is my vision right now? Because I mean, I think in this exact moment I'm sort of struggling with that exact question. It's like, oh, what should I be working on? Like, what's the, like what's the best you. I mean, I think that's as a self coached athlete. I mean, the thing with rock climbing is that there's no like team. There's no team. There's nobody around you telling you what you should be doing. It's like, you know, my whole quote unquote career as a climber, I've just come up with goals that inspire me and then push myself to do them. And so I think that the biggest challenge, you know, from time to time, and of course I face this in the past sometimes, but it's basically sort of apathy. You know, every once in a while you're just kind of like, well, I need to do that. Like, I mean, cause it's freaking hard work. And especially as I get older, it's like probably harder and harder work. You know, you have. You surprise yourself with your own success less often is what I'm finding, I think. And maybe not because I'm aging, but also just with kids now and like family stuff and I work more and do all that stuff. But, but I, you know, I mean, I think one of the most joyous moments in climbing is when you do something you didn't think you could do. And this isn't necessarily with free soling. This is like when you're climbing with a rope and you're like, oh, I'm trying something that's in my limit. It's really hard. But then every once in a while you just have moments of sort of transcendence where you're like, oh, I did something. Like I was sure I was going to fail, but I did it. And I was like, oh my God. I totally exceeded my own expectations. It was amazing. I'm so psyched. And like, obviously I still experience that from time to time. Definitely less often. You know, I feel like in your 20s, you're like constantly surprising yourself. We're like, oh, I did something I didn't think I could do. It was incredible. Like now I'm rewriting what I think I'm capable of, you know, and now I'm sort of like, you know, every once in a while I have glimmers where I'm like, oh, I feel way better than I expected.

Okay, so our last conversation was A handful of years ago, you were kind of flying high, post your big. Your most famous climb, you know where it was 3,000 square feet.

So that was the. That was before the film came out. But after the actual climb, I forget when exactly we spoke, because I was at usc.

It was at usc. It was an awesome.

It feels like a long time ago to me. Yeah, it's like so much has happened since then. It's like. I'm pretty sure the phone came out after that.

It was pre Covid.

Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, pre Covid, but for me, that was like pre marriage, pre kids, pre crazy film, you know?

Yeah, right.

Pre. Like my adult life, basically.

Yeah. It was a whole different world. There's something that you said about risk taking. So this is. This is kind of pre kids, pre marriage that I'd love to play it back and then have a reframing or an agreement.

Like, I'm super curious what I. What I said about it, what you said. I mean, because in a way, it's a totally different person. That's like 10 years ago. And.

And Emma, can you play that clip that we were talking about earlier of how he was talking about risk?

So spending some time in the adventure world and the action, you know, high stakes environments. There's a phrase that happens when I'll talk about some projects that I've been part of, and people will respond, they'll lean back and they'll say, why would they do that? Speaking of you or somebody, like, why? I don't understand it. And then there's this unique phrase that pops out right behind it, which is, well, they can't have kids. And then something like. And they can't really love their mom. So I don't get the sense of that for you. But how would you respond to that?

I don't know. I mean, I don't have kids or family or anything like that. So, I mean, I can't speak to that. But. But I mean, I think that I'm making very clear, intentional choices. And I would think that I'll continue to make well informed decisions regardless of my family situation. I don't know. I mean, a lot of my friends, other professional climbers that I've done a lot of the big enchantments and things with, do have kids, do have young kids. And it's not as if anything has changed for them. I mean, we still. I mean, the goal is always to survive. It's like, I mean, we want to live, so it's not like, you know, yeah, it's not like that's going to change. That's funny. At the end, I'm referencing Tommy Caldwell.

You are.

And I still actually paraphrase something that he always says. I mean, he, he sort of jokes that he didn't want to die in the mountains before he had kids, and he still doesn't want to die in the mountains. And that sums up my current attitude still. I'm like, well, I didn't want to die in a terrible accident before I had my kids, and now that I have kids, I'm still not trying to die in a terrible accident.

And you're also pointing to your decision making. You're like, my decision making is pretty sound, so.

Well, at least you like to think so. This whole little anecdote we were telling earlier, it's like, it's hard to tell, but still, still trying my best.

So has being a parent changed the way that you approach risk?

I mean, I don't, I don't think that much. I mean, and I recently did a. A difficult soloing project for a film thing that hopefully be out in a year and a half, but. But it was the first sort of cutting edge wall that I'd sold in a while. I told my wife that I was like, you know, I think the thing that I'm doing is probably like, top 10 free solos for me. And she was like, oh. Because top 10 for me at this point is like, it's pretty hard. And actually at the time, I think she didn't think that much about it. And then she was actually hanging out with Tommy Caldwell and she mentioned, like, oh, you said it was top 10. And Tommy was like, isn't that kind of messed up, like your Easter essence? She was like, anyway, but so it was the first like, hard thing I'd done in a while for sort of extreme free soloing, if you want to call that, and you don't like to call it extreme. Well, I mean, I mean, it didn't feel that extreme. It, you know, top 10. I showed up, I spent two weeks, you know, I prepped like four or five days and did it. And it was great and had a good time filmed on it. It was like, it didn't feel extreme extreme, but it was, it is challenging. Like the grade is. Sorry. I don't know. It suited me well. But. But my point being that before I did it, I was kind of like, is this going to feel different now that I have kids? Like, is this going to be scarier? Like, am I going to get up there and, and find That I don't have it anymore because I'm just like visualizing my 3 year old and you know, like our, our morning routine and everything. And the reality was that, that I had a great time. I loved it. I was up there. I was like, this is so great. Like, I love this kind of thing. I mean, because I did the prep, I felt confident, felt, felt easy, basically. It felt great.

So you didn't have the distraction that you thought like, you know, at the base or somewhere in a tricky moment where it's like, man, maybe I shouldn't be pushing because I need to be there for my kids.

No, I mean, you know, obviously I was thinking about my, I was face on my kids like every time I could through the trip. But for the actual climb, it was like I did all the, the prep work required. I felt good, I felt bad. I don't know. Yeah, it was amazing.

You have a really rich insight about the difference between risk, danger and consequence. Can you open those three up for us?

Yeah, I mean, so, so I like to differentiate risk and consequence. I mean, danger is kind of just its own thing, but, but most people use risk to sort of mean, like, something seems dangerous, like, oh, that's really risky. And I don't know what the actual definitions of all these words are. Like, I haven't used a dictionary, but I would like to. I would prefer to use risk to describe the likelihood of something happening and the consequences being what will happen if, if that thing does happen. And so in my case, with free soling, the consequences are almost always death. Like, for the most part, if you fall off, you're going to die. So the consequences are incredibly high. But if you're watching a video or you're seeing a photo of somebody free soloing, you can't really evaluate the risk. Like, you can't judge the likelihood of me falling off through an image because some of the terrain is really freaking easy. And oftentimes if you're seeing photos or video, you're probably seeing the parts that are easier because that's the part we decided to film on. You know, for a lot of, for a lot of this kind of content. Like sometimes I do the things by myself and then you go back and you film on the parts that are scenic or the, that like, look great. And to the casual viewer, you can't tell the difference between the easy stuff and the hard stuff anyway. It all looks insane. You're like, that guy's hanging on the side of a cliff. Like, that's crazy. Yeah, but so you know, basically, I think it's hard for a viewer to. To evaluate risk. You know, it's hard to. To determine how likely somebody is to fall off or how likely something bad is to happen.

Because for them, it's a perceived risk. For you. Well, for them, actually, not.

Well, what they're seeing are the consequences. They're seeing that the consequences are death, no matter what. So the. They're like. That seems insane.

Oh, so the lens consequences.

Yeah, exactly.

I got you.

But then. But then they sort of use the word risk, but basically, because the consequences are super high, they sort of conflate that to mean, like, oh, it's. It's likely that you're going to die. And you're like, well, no, the likelihood of me falling off is practically zero. It's just that if I do, the consequences are severe.

That's right.

And so I think that there's a healthy attitude around evaluating risk like that, where it's like, just because the consequences of something are incredibly high, if the likelihood is incredibly low, you're kind of like, whoa, could still be reasonable to do that thing.

You know, I think it was.

I attribute something to you, but I actually, as we're talking, I don't think you shared it with me. I think it was Luke Akins. So Luke jumped from 30,000ft into. Without a parachute, into a net.

Bunch of boxes. Oh, the net thing. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Heaven Sent was the name of the project.

Heaven Sent that.

Yeah. So imagine that, 30,000ft, you look down, your target is the size of a stamp. And it gets bigger as you go. It gets.

That's the type of. That's the type of optimism.

Yeah, that's the optimist. That's great. And so when he called me up and he's like, mike, you know, are you in on. Help me with this project? Damn, dude. This is. This is a. This is binary. Yeah.

Either you do it or you don't.

Yeah. Either you hit it or you don't.

But you're going to hit it. I mean, does anyone miss?

So he was. Well, so he.

Did he ever miss in practice?

86 halos, high altitude, low openings, which are dangerous in themselves. You have to have special permission for ish. You know, for someone like him, not that dangerous. I mean, he is exceptional. For me, incredibly dangerous. Okay, but so he was 86 for 87.

Where he opened this once.

Yeah. So once.

So going into the why do you miss?

I was a win thing.

Oh, yeah. You know, like, so he's, like, doing his best and he's doing his best.

He's tracking. Tracking. And like it's counterintuitive, you know, when.

You'Re skiing, but I guess that's the kind of thing though where you, you judge your conditions before you go.

And that's. Right. Same to your point. Like, and there's, there's Gus. That happened similar to your, your climb.

And you have to suspect that of his 87 practice goes, he probably did a lot of his practicing in marginal conditions to see what the limits of the conditions are.

All types of righteous, windy days. Yeah. And so, so that's kind of always. That was hanging in, in his mind. But 86 for 87, he's world class.

Yeah. You're like on the day of, he's gonna do it.

Let's go.

That's Joe.

And so on the day of, he was actually behind the target. And so. Meaning that he had to, you know, it's closing fast and he had to put his head down to increase his speed to be able to get to the target. So he, he didn't land right in the center. He landed just, just in the net. He survived. He was successful. But just like those last minute calculations, the last kind of 1500ft were heavy and so.

But that's what he practiced. Right? I mean, that's like a normal, that's like a normal day for him.

Yeah. The thrill was. This is where I get confused. The thrill at the end when he made it was like he was glowing. There was a thing, it was like the most alive. I know Luke is in those moments. And I don't get that from you. I don't get that when you, when you got on top of, when you're on top of a wall.

I think that's because rock climbing is fundamentally less thrilling than falling out of space.

That's right.

You know, I mean, climbing is a little slower, a little more.

That's right. Different. Different DNA.

It is still deeply satisfying though. But I suspect that part of what part of the rush that he was experiencing was having completed something that he'd worked on for so long.

That's right.

Oh, I've achieved this thing.

That's right.

And so with climbing, I mean, I definitely get a thrill of achieving things that are hard. You know, like if you've put tons and tons of effort into something and then you succeed, like, there's still definitely a thrill around that, but it's just not the same as jumping out of space, you know, because that's psycho.

Yeah, it's totally different. Now, do you so oftentimes, like, the most dangerous part of a thing is moments before the final success is going to take place. Like the last three. The last three steps to get to the top of the mountain.

Do you think that's actually a thing? I don't know if I believe that. I feel like that's sort of like a, A popular, like a cliche, but I don't know. Or when people say, like, with climbing, the accidents always happen on the way down to mean, like, oh, you have to stay alert the whole time. And you're like, well, no, accidents happen on the way down for. For different reasons. Like with highlight. Yeah, because with highlights you're mountaineering because you're like, incredibly fatigued and like, weather and whatever. Or with rock climbing stuff, because repelling is like, fundamentally more dangerous in a way because you're, like, hanging on the gear and whatever. Yeah, but I think those types of, you know, like, accidents happen at those times. I'm like, I don't know. Is that true?

I don't know. Like, I think that you're probably pretty extraordinary at holding focus and so you're not letting.

But don't you think anybody doing something cutting edge like that is focused all the way?

Yes, I know.

Like, like how many Olympians, like, coast across the finish line? It's like, no, people go all the way to the end for.

Well, those, those ones.

And they're notable exceptions.

That's.

Notable exceptions make the rules. Because you're like, oh, that person got beaten by a nose because they eased up at the very end. That's embarrassing. You know, it's like, that's really embarrassing.

Yeah.

Or like in the NFL, when people, like, spike the ball on the one yard line, you're like, but like, but those types of stories are funny because they're so rare. Because you're like, what an idiot.

Yeah, right. And spiking the ball in the one yard line is what's the consequence there?

Yeah, it's like, not that big deal, but like, when your life depends about it. I mean, about his teammates made fun of it for like the rest of the rest of his career.

Yeah, you don't live that down.

Yeah, but it's like when your life depends on it, you're paying attention.

So that is you.

You're hitting on a couple things that are really important. One, that statement. When your life depends on it, you do. What? What?

How did you just say pay attention?

You pay. When your life depends on it, you pay attention. When something really matters, you go all in with your Intention.

Yeah.

With your attention, with your intensity, with your. The focus to be able to execute. We take life pretty casually.

That's because most of life is very casual.

Yeah. But the. At the deepest level, the consequence of you missing, on the surface level, you missing a joke that you're. You're. Or a smile from your. Your newborn or whatever. Like, okay, there'll be another one.

Yeah, totally.

At the deepest level, you don't get that one back, it's gone.

Yeah, you don't get that one back, but you'll get tons more.

Maybe if we're alive.

Yeah, yeah, right. Because with some luck.

Yeah, yeah, with some luck because we don't know when this thing ends. So, like, if this. I can get somber quickly on this because there's a unknowing about how the bet that we're going to have another one. It's unknown, but for the. For the last 53 years of my life, it's worked out. There is another one, but there will be a time when it's not. And I learned this from studying the samurais, Samurai warriors is like, I want to prepare to be great in my moment, so I can be great at the moment, my last moment too. And so what you're pointing to is when something really matters, you're great with your attention and focus. I love that insight. I also love what you're saying is like, for your climbs, there's a compelling future that you're working towards now. There's a finite nature to it, and I think we need to pull both of those forward to live a great life. What is the compelling future I'm going to live as a. As a parent, as a whatever, as a global citizen? What's the compelling. Or what's so important that I can give all of my attention to it?

So, but that's. I think that's the crux. That's the really hard part, is like, there's so few things in life that demand that level of attention or. Or that you want to give that level of attention to. And particularly in the modern world where there's so many other things that are engineered to take your attention. You know, it's like, you know, I mean, it's a little cliche to complain about that kind of stuff, but it's like there are just so many. I mean, just think like, advertising, like, stuff constantly trying to grab you and, like, take your attention. It's like you really need something that matters a lot to you to keep you focused on a certain path, especially.

When you're Down a scrolling doom. And there's the dopamine, the cheap dopamine hit. You didn't earn it, but you're getting that little kind of hit of, like.

Feel good, you're feeling alive, like there's something happening. And then you're like, wait, there's nothing happening.

I'm just like, my shoulders hurt from.

Being hunched over my phone. You're like, what am I doing with my life? That's, like, terrible.

So what do you do to manage social media and the kind of. The cheap dopamine?

Well, I just. I don't have any of the apps. I. I mean, I still post. I have the accounts and I post stuff, but. But I send it to. To a friend who does it for me, basically. I, like, send my captions, send photos, and so that way I can batch stuff. So if I'm on a flight, I can just, like, send a bunch of photos, send a bunch of captions, and then it just gets doled out over time.

Is that because you.

You don't think that you can manage yourself with it, or is it uninteresting to you?

Because. Yeah, it's. No, it's too interesting. I mean, that's the thing, is that it is, because it used to be that. I mean, so, you know, I mean, all the apps used to be way more benign. You know, fewer advertisements, like, chronological scroll, like, all that kind of stuff where it's just, like, a little less addictive. Like, designed to be less addictive. And so then I was kind of like, oh, this is fun. You know, I see what my friends are up to. But then. Then it was like too much time. And so I would, like, erase the app sometimes, but then you, like, reinstall the app because you feel like you have to post something. But then when you're gonna post something, you're like, oh, what's. What's my friend doing? Like, oh, my friend has a new girlfriend. What's her deal? Like, oh, wow. And then you go down some rabbit hole, and then you're like, what am I doing? My life. Like, this is a complete waste of my time. It's totally stupid.

Yeah. Anyway, chunks of 28 minutes, you know, are. Are we lose them?

Yeah, no, I remember I'm just making.

That number up at 20.

Yeah. No freaking Instagram released. What is it? Reels or whatever. Like their version of TikTok.

Yeah.

And I remember I was, like, sitting on the john, was like, what's this? And then just started scrolling and, like, you know, like, 45 minutes later, I Get off the john. I'm like, oh, my legs went numb. I'm like, what am I doing with my life? And then immediately uninstall the apps again. Was like, no, I'm done with this. Like, this is psycho. Like, what?

You know, so that's a discipline. There's a discipline in you that comes through well.

But the thing for me though is that it only takes discipline once because otherwise uninstall the apps. And now, you know, because I've been having my friend sort of manage it for so long, at a certain point she wound up changing all the logins and everything. Like, so all the two factor authentication is all through her now. So I can't log in even if I wanted to. And that just happened because it was more practical because she had to like log in and out of stuff and whatever. But so the discipline required was the one time when I raced the app and then the choice to have somebody else help me with it and then. And that saves me from having to use self discipline every freaking day.

That's brilliant. That's. That, that's a thing that I learned. It's like a passing comment about when you. When I go shopping for food, be disciplined in that moment.

Totally.

Because then your house.

No, that's exactly like my house when I'm sort of quote unquote on the program. When I'm like tight about diet and like training hard or doing whatever. Yeah, it's exactly that. There's just no, there are no sweets in the house. You're sort of like, it's easy that way.

Then when you go to your cupboard, you know, you don't have to make a choice between the sweets and the whatever.

Yeah, exactly. It's not a hard choice. You're like, I'm going to eat anything I can find. You're like, sadly, there's nothing to find. So that's what you eat. Like, oh, I have like sardines in the cupboard. I guess I'll eat those.

So you are disciplined.

Well, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm any more disciplined than everybody else. I think, you know, you employ strategies like that to limit the amount of self discipline required.

You're clever in the way that you design your life.

Yeah. Trick yourself. Yeah, yeah. Life design type stuff.

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I love that you are living your life according to the way you wanted to do it, but I've made that up. There might be a hidden little secret that you're working from that you're like, yeah, look, I think this thing got away from me. I was pure. I was a dirtbag. I say that affectionately, for folks that don't know what that means, that living in your car to, you know, to climb, not into it for money. And then this thing happened. Now you're famous. You are asked to climb, travel the world to share your insights and ideas. There's real pressures. You've got money and a house and a family and, and, and has this thing gotten away from you in, in any structure, or are you, are you managing it well?

I mean, I'd like to think I'm managing it well, but no, that's always the question that I ask myself. It's like, oh, is this the path? You know, because if my only goal was to send the hard, you know, to do the hardest climbs, to do things that are cutting edge, then obviously I would cut away any kind of corpus p. Any kind of work events. Like, you know, I host two podcasts. I'm like, I'll cut all that kind of stuff, you know, like any kind of extra things that I'll get cut away. And I would just try to send. On the other hand, the reality of climbing is that you can only climb like 30 or 40 hours. Even if you're adventuring all the time and having like, crazy things, you can still only do it for 40 or 50 hours in a week. And that still leaves you plenty of time to do other hobbies and stuff, like, say, host a podcast or like, do some work event. And, and that's kind of the challenge for me is that there's always gonna be some balance. And, you know, now I have a family, and so that's like a whole other dimension as well. And so if I wanted to climb the absolute hardest things, then, yeah, it'd be easier if I didn't have a family, if I didn't, if I didn't work at all. But I know that sending the hardest things in the world will only last for, you know, at the most another decade anyway. And then a lot of the stuff around working and having a family and all that is like me looking at the whole rest of my life. You know, I might be alive for 50 plus more years. I'm kind of like, well, maybe 10 of those could be devoted to sending. But what do I do with the other 40 or 50 years? I'm kind of like, yeah, that's where, you know, I want to save retirement. I want to provide for my family. You know, I want to build like a healthy, well rounded future.

Let's do a, a comparison. Let's go back again 10 years pre family. What was your purpose Then.

And sending. The nar.

Sending. The gnar.

Yeah, the. The sending.

Just like, reckless abandon in sending.

No, but just like wanting to leave a mark in climbing. Like wanting to achieve something in climbing. Like, do things haven't been done. Like, do hard things. Like improve as a climber. Just go hard.

So was it notches on your belt that you had the most firsts?

No, I mean, not exactly first, but. But, you know, you could sum it up as I basically, notches. I could. You know, achieving things that matter. Whatever.

Okay. And it. Was it for the experience of. And the knowing that you were able, or was it for the recognition that, like, you know, oh, he's top of the totem.

I mean, it's a little bit of. I mean, you know, like, it's a lie if you say that recognition doesn't matter, because obviously being recognized by your peers and being sort of, you know, impressing your friends always matters. But a lot of it is. Is feeling like you're improving. I mean, so much of climbing, especially for me, for so many years, going back to Yosemite every season, every spring and fall. Each season you're trying to outdo what you've done the previous seasons. Like, you do a route, and then the next season you come back and you try to do that same route in a day, and then you come back and you try to do that same route in a few hours, or you try to free solo that route. Or, you know, basically there's this constant, like, progression of ways to get better at rock climbing. And so you just want to keep feeling like you're improving.

Is it fair to say that you made a fundamental commitment in your life to pursue that purpose?

Kind of. But. But. But not explicitly. You know, it's like, not as if I would have said that I was on this path. And that's kind of the thing is that sometimes it's hard to tell until a decade later when you're like, oh, wow, I was really, like, doing it for a long time.

Yeah. Okay, so how is your purpose changed or not? Go back now. Take us into present moment.

Well, I think present moment, like, I still love sending. Trying my best, but just the reality is that I spend a lot more of my time around family stuff, around work stuff, around, you know, everything else.

This is. This is the thing. Work, life, balance.

Yeah. And actually, let me just say, though, that the thing that I struggle with is. And I think. I think this is maybe in the film Free Solo, but I think one of the things that my wife has sort of brought to my life a little bit is that she's always had this, this idea of like, well, why not have it all? Or like, why not do it all? And she brought that up at the. I think it's in the film Free Solo. But toward the beginning of our relationship, I was kind of like, I should be single and angsty and like, it'll help me send. And she was like, why don't you just have, have a happy, well adjusted relationship and still send? You know, she's like, why don't you just have both? Like, you don't need to be like depressed and angstful in order to perform. Like, why not be happy and still perform? And at the time that felt like a revelation. Revelation to me. I was like, huh? Like, you mean I can be happy and still climb really hard? And in a way, I mean it's really played out that way. Like we've had a, we've had a great, you know, now it's been almost 10 year relationship. It's like all happy and healthy and I've still arguably done all my hardest things, you know, in the last 10 years. Actually that's probably true.

Wow. So you are doing harder things now than you did before.

But yeah, you know what's interesting actually? So this is, this is the whole thing. So, you know, I do a lot of corporate speaking and the structure of my talks always sort of lead up to free selling all cap, which now happened in 2017. So that's like a long time ago. And so I spend a lot of time talking about, you know, the buildup, the training, all the things I did before All Cap. And then my show always just, you know, my talk ends with me summoning All Cap. And so I know my, my ancient history really well in a way because I talk about all these stories all the time, but I sort of discount all the things I've done in the last seven or eight years because it's, it's post lcaps. It's like, who cares? And, and the reality is that nobody, nobody knows any of this stuff. Nobody cares. Like, it's just. Anyway, so a while back, a couple months ago, my wife told me that I have all kinds of notes on my phone where I keep track of like training and climbing and just things and like plans for the year and aspirations and whatever. You know, I have tons of different notes. She was like, you should have a note of all the things that you're proud of since El Cap, you know, like climbs that matter to you. Like basically like list out things that matter. And so I started keeping track of like, you know, 2022, what are the things that I did in those years. And when I started listing out achievement, like climbing achievements, that kind of would matter, you know, it's like none of them got any of the recognition that that Free song All Cap did because they're not like that scale. But a lot of them actually are really cutting edge and like, cool, and I'm proud of them. But like, nobody really knows about. Nobody cares and. And I'd sort of forgotten about a lot of it. And listing it all out made me sort of recognize that I've had like some very productive years since then. They just aren't. They aren't El Cap. So you kind of forget about it.

This is like a little bit of a golden handcuff is that it's a thing that you're most known for and it's a moment in time. You loved it. You feel really good about Free Solo, but like, you are. There's something different about you than when we met in 2017 or 2018 or whenever that was.

Well, hopefully I'm slightly more mature. I mean, I'm 10 years older.

But there's something different behind your eyes. What is the difference that.

Is it. Is it a deadness? What do you. What do you. What do you see? I don't know. Is it a deep fatigue? Is I have a one year old and a four year old?

No, there's something. I don't want to put a word to it. I have two words that describe it. But how would you describe the thing that's behind your eyes? Go, if you can, go back to the stage at USC and go back to like this moment.

I mean, if I had to guess, you know, USC eight years ago, whenever that was, I mean, I would have been a lot more shy in a way. Like, way less used to public speaking, way less comfortable with that kind of state. I mean, also at the time, that would have felt like one of the classiest things I'd done where I'm like, this is great. It's usc, you know, the storied institution. Yeah, it all would feel like way more intense. Whereas now I've just done so much more of that kind of stuff that it's like, oh, it's, you know, it's all a little bit more casual and.

Fun, but so the words I have is. And these need some explaining is that there's a more openness and there's a. It's like you're closer to the Surface. So shy would be an interesting way to have the reverse of it. But you're closer. You're the, the. The porousness between.

More open.

Yeah. Who you actually are and. And how close that is to the surface feels way more available.

Yeah, I could see that. I mean, I think part of that, part of that is just adulthood maturity and just being a little more like.

To yourself for some.

Well, ideally it's the aspiration.

Yeah. Right.

But then I think part of that is also the sort of well founded confidence that comes with achieving most of the things that you're trying to do in life. You know, it's like, oh, I've gotten to do the things that I'm most proud of. And I mean the thing with like, I spent so much time talking about the film free solo and free soling, all cap and all that. And I'm like, at least it is the thing that I am incredibly proud of. You know, it's like if you're going to spend a lot of time talking to groups about a thing, at least it's something that I am very happy. Like every time I see you don't.

Cringe when you watch it.

It's like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.

It's a masterpiece.

The film is amazing. It's beautiful. The scenery is amazing. Like, it just makes me happy on every level. And I'm like, oh, that's great. And so, you know, to spend your time talking about something that you're excited about, it's like, yeah, it's just, it's good.

What is harder, what is scarier, what's more uncomfortable? You pick the adjective here. Vulnerability and intimacy versus, you know, pushing.

An edge where definitely the former it is. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. So talk about how you manage or work through. Maybe even bring up a moment, if you can, where you were like, man, this is, this is really hard for me. I'm imagining it's no details needed, but a conversation with your wife or maybe.

Like reading my vows or something. Like at our wedding, we actually had two. We got married during COVID so we did like a tiny family ceremony like during COVID and then did like a giant, you know, friend party at our house whenever Covid was like less restricted. I don't know, like the next year or something. But, but yeah, like public displays of affection like that. I mean, oh, that, that feels like much more challenging.

What's at risk?

And also in general, I would say that it's much harder for me to receive praise than to receive criticism in a Way. Which is. Which is interesting because I do so many public events where everyone's like, you're so amazing. You're so amazing. But I find it, like, very draining. You know, Eventually I go back to a room and I'm like, oh, I'm so worked, you know?

Why is that?

I don't know.

Huh.

I mean. Yeah, well, actually, and to be fair, if I had all those people telling me that I was like, that would probably be kind of draining too. But, like, that would also be demoralizing.

Yeah.

But I think in general, it's just easier to take criticism in a way, you know?

Well, I wonder if it's because.

Or like, criticism can fuel you more in a way where you're like, oh, you're like, f that guy. Like, let me show him, you know, I wonder if.

Because the praise, it's pulling you forward so now there's a spotlight on you when that happens, which is. Would be uncomfortable for healthy people if. But feel really good. And I. At the same time, and I wonder if you're afraid of that drug and so is one of the reasons you constantly kind of manage it or push it away or deflect it. Because there is a drug in being recognized for being special. And if it comes, if the drug source is constantly external, then we need them to do it. And it's a very dangerous proposition. If we can back ourselves and believe in ourselves and have a relationship that is grounded in something within ourselves, it's always available. There's a mastery to that. There's a dependency on the former.

Yeah. I've never really thought about in this terms. I mean, I don't think I've ever struggled with, like, that internal self belief, you know, at least not in things that I feel good at.

I believe you.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Like, obviously I spent my whole life, like, doing, like, the things that I think I can do. I really believe that I can do. I mean, there are plenty of things that I can't do.

Yeah. And are those things climbing and relationships?

Well, climbing. No, relationships. I'd say I'm terrible. I mean, relationships that I've muddled my way through and thankfully have stumbled upon a great wife and, like, managed to make it. You managed to hold on to that for a decade. But. But no, I'd say I'm terrible at that kind of stuff. But maybe not terrible because actually, you know, we. Yeah, we've. We've navigated. I mean, just navigating the whole free solo filming and then the tour and all that. I mean, it was like quite.

Yeah.

You did all that with, with your.

Yeah, well, so, yeah, I met my, my then girlfriend right when we started filming making that film. And so it was two years of them making the film, which was incredibly stressful for a new relationship, is like they're literally documentary camera crews following you around while you're like, trying to date. It's like, that's sort of weird and intense. And then there was the whole film tour coming out after that, you know, which culminates with us going to the Academy Awards and all that kind of stuff. And you're like, it's, it's all a lot for a, for a new relationship.

It could be, could, could, could have been a disaster in the making.

Totally.

Right.

But in a way it actually worked. You know, I don't want to say it brought us closer together, but it was like. Because we probably would have been together either way. But. But I think, you know, it was like a stressor that I think made the relationship better rather than worse.

I mean, this is so trite to ask this, but I want to ask it with the preamble that I really, I really have a high respect for fear and its role that it takes. And we all face it. You have it. I have it that, you know, like, fear is part of the broth of living well. And if, if that broth is too salty, too much fear, like, call it clinical anxiety, you know, like.

That's a really good metaphor. Yeah, it's part of the broth.

Yeah. Good. So what are the things that you are afraid of?

Oh, I mean, all the. All the same things. Everybody.

Well, most people are afraid of falling, though.

Well, yeah, but I am too. I mean, I don't want to fall off something. It's just that I'm very confident that I'm not going to fall off most things. Things.

Yeah, actually.

I mean, and I say this to people at events all the time because I always have people come up and be like, oh, but I'm so afraid of heights. And I'm like, almost nobody's actually afraid of heights. Everybody's afraid of falling off and dying. You know, most people that say they're afraid of heights are actually just afraid of like, falling off an edge and dying. And you're like, well, that's totally well founded. You should be afraid of falling to your death. You know, I'm afraid of falling to my death. It's just that I'm pretty confident that I'm not going to fall off on easy terrain.

It's a Tricky one, because I too, I have all that biological stuff. Right. When I even get to an edge of any cliff and I'm. I'm in control of my body, I'm standing at the edge of the cliff. There could be a fence there, but I'm a little closer to normal. And I look down and I still feel all of that DNA biological stuff saying, hey, this is dangerous. And I can feel it. Okay, I'm not going to jump just randomly over the thing, but there is an impulse like, should I jump?

You do wonder.

There's a weird thing that happens.

Okay, all that being said, the fear.

Of death, what is your model of what happens after you physically die?

I think you're just done. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not religious or spiritual anyway, so I'm sort of like, oh, when you die, it's like, you know, it's like powering off a device, like, you're done.

Yeah. It's an interesting philosophical position, is like, were we told, okay, so this, this, I, I'm going to get into a dangerous territory where there's going to be plenty of people in our. Both of our communities are like, man, you got some work to do here, Mike. But what were we told from the institutions of religion that there's a better later. So be a good servant now to the powers that be. That screws with me. I have a low trust. I think, like most folks right now on institutions, there's like, what's really the game that's taking place and are. Okay, so were we told generations ago in my family that be a good servant because if you're not, you, you go to a bad place when you die. And if you are, the rewards later are going to be amazing. And you're saying, yeah, I'm not buying into that. I think when we die, we die. That's it.

Yeah. Yeah, basically.

So does that, does that increase your ability to live? Well, well, that's the thing.

I mean, circling back to. To parents dying at a young age and sort of like experiencing loss, I think that's a reminder that when people are done, they're done. And, you know, just like, oh, I have a very short amount of time.

So better be better. Live the best life I can.

Yeah.

And that.

Or do the things that I'm looking.

To do, do the things I'm looking to do. Yours involves a. A tethering that's different than most people between physical life and physical death.

What do you mean? Like, you mean the things that I'm trying to do? Are consequential.

Yeah, consequential. More. More than. More than the things I'm doing on a regular basis. And do you think that I live a crazy life? Because people think you live a crazy life. I sit, I'm indoors.

I think your life seems relatively. I mean, it seems interesting, but very normal.

Very normal, right. Which would be boring. And I wouldn't say boring. And I think. You think that most people that. That live indoors are kind of crazy.

No, I don't think so. I mean, the thing is, like, I could see myself in a different life. Like, you know, I would love to be doing what you're doing if I wasn't doing what I'm doing. You know, I can. I can definitely see myself in tons of different worlds. You know, like, I could. And I think maybe that's growing up with a rich imagination, like, which I think contributes to the life that I have lived, is that, you know, I could imagine going on a totally different path. But, you know, people. I sometimes get asked things like, oh, you know, if you couldn't climb, like, what would you do? And I'm kind of like anything, you know, Like, I don't know. I was studying to be an engineer. Maybe I would have been an engineer. Maybe I'd like the. I could imagine any other life and I could imagine feeling pretty fulfilled and.

In most lives, so imagination probably linking to compelling future clarity, probably linking to great, great motivation to actually apply yourself to do the things that you see in your movie. And when you see the movie, do you feel it? When you use your imagination, do you feel like you're actually in the movie? Or is it more. Does it have a laugh?

I think so. I think that visualizing the right things can trigger the accompanying emotional state.

That's right.

Like, if you really visualize, like, I mean, if you vividly think about falling to your death and things like that, then you're sort of like, well, it makes you feel a little, you know, maybe not quite like quite the same feeling, but close enough.

When you do imagination of like a new thing that you're going to do or something that you want to be great at, is there. If you were to make up a ratio between seeing the success of it and seeing the. The mistakes and failures of it. Both are important, I think. What is the rela. What is the percentage relationship between the two?

That's interesting. I have no idea how to put a number to it because it's probably not quite 50, 50, but, you know, it's probably 70, 30, positive to negative or something like that. I mean, because there's definitely a fair amount of negative, but overall it skews positive, I think.

And when it. When the negative pops up, what do you do with it?

You just. I mean, you just watch it the same as everything else. You're kind of like.

I mean, I rewind it. I'll catch it as soon as I can, and then I'll rewind the tape and then like, lay a new track over it. Or what I'll do is I'll just kind of pause and reset. I want to lay another track over the mistake track or put myself in the compromise situation and figure it out from there. Those are the two things I do see.

See, I don't quite see that. I mean, I see the point of that because that's like to learn how to do something well or to feel confident doing it. But I see all the different scenarios playing out. Like, if I'm visualizing a hard climb, let's say, and you sort of imagine falling off different places. You imagine, like, your foot sleep slipping, or you imagine, like, your hands feeling all slick and, like, it being humid or whatever. Like, no matter how many negative things I sort of visualize, I don't think that that changes the likelihood of anything happening one way or another, but it just allows you to sort of process all these different potential forks in the road.

Cool. So you use it for, like, almost an emotional framework.

Well, it's like scenario planning.

Yeah.

Sort of. Like these are all the things that could potentially happen. Me thinking about them doesn't make them any more likely to happen. It just means that I've at least considered the possibilities and then ideally mitigated against them.

Yeah. I do not believe if you close your eyes and see a red bicycle, it's going to show up in your, you know, like, that's not how this works. I. There is evidence.

But I do believe that if you close your eyes and you visualize the things that could happen, you'll be less surprised if or when they do happen. And that's. That's the whole point to me.

Brilliant. And that gives you an additional reference point. It's like a free reference point.

Yeah, exactly. It's like you get to practice without.

Doing the thing without any consequence.

Yeah.

The only consequence is feeling the feelings that, you know, that might accompany, which.

Is what you're trying to do anyway. Because the idea is that you don't want to feel those things too intensely on the day of, you know, like when. When you're actually doing the Climb. You don't want to suddenly be like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm up here. This is so crazy.

Right? Right?

You're gonna be like, oh, no. This is exactly what I imagined it would feel. Feel like. This is normal.

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Let's go back to Free solo for a minute. How many times did you see the route in your mind?

Oh, I mean, it's a huge route. So it is more like visualizing very specific sequences and certain boulders and everything.

And so would you play the whole thing in your mind or would you just.

No, I don't think I've ever visualized the whole re. It's too much. It's like. It's too big.

Yeah.

I would just think about the different segments here and there.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that makes sense.

I mean, to actually visual. I mean, I. I can't. And even when. Even on the day of, like, when I free solo cap, I couldn't have visualized every move from the bottom to top, I don't think, because there's a lot of easy filler climbing that I just knew that I would just climb that you just don't have to memorize because it's easy.

If you had, like, one thought for our community to live a great life, what would you leave us with?

Beats me. I'm like, I'm here to learn, you know? So you tell me. I don't know. I. I always just say, like, do the thing. You know, like, whatever you're working on. Like, just do. Do the thing.

I think it's important to know what the thing is that you're working on. That's what. Well, like, I'm learning. Yeah, I'm learning that that's a little bit of. You're in a transition phase right now.

Well, it's hard to say. Or I'm just in a grumpy week. It's just. I split easy. I've got this bandit on one finger. I, like, split one of my fingertips, which is, like, pretty common thing in climbing. But anyway, I have a cut on my fingertip, and so I'm trying to do this, like, hard climb, and I can't really hold on that well because my one finger split, and it's just kind of frustrating, and I keep failing, and you're just like, oh, my. What am I doing?

Yeah, it's amazing. Like, one fingertip.

It's so embarrassing because, like, NFL players will, like, break their femur and, like, take a bunch of Vicodin and go back in and play out the rest of the game. And in climbing is, like, you split your tip, and it's like, the tiniest, tiniest cut on your fingertip. But the thing is, is you just can't pull as hard as you can on your fingertips if it's split. And so even though, like, in the grand scheme of human pain, it's, like, totally trivial, it's like, nothing compared to, like, a boxer getting punched in the face over and over. But it does affect performance enough that you just can't push as. As hard as you need to. It's. It's. It's very frustrating. It's so sad. So did you.

You got a hangnail that's.

Well, that's kind of it. Yeah. You're like, oh, my hangnail's bleeding. It's so embarrassing. I just can't send my garage. And you're like, God, that's annoying.

Okay, let's go back here. I. I would love, if there's something I can do for you to sort out this transition phase about where you're going next. Is there anything there? I can be a service, like, of what you're. What you're really working on right now.

Well, I mean, like, yeah. What do I do next? You know, it's like, what's. I don't know. I mean, how do you juggle, like, what you should be doing versus what you want to be doing versus what?

Well, let's open up.

And how do you know when you know? I mean, I think for me, like, climbing has. Has more longevity than most sports. And so, like, I'm turning 40 this year, kind of, like, realistically, actually, like, one of my friends who's 65, I think, just climbed one of his hardest routes, and you're kind of like, oh, it's. It's pretty good. It's a little different for me because I've been trying my very hardest since I was in my 20s. Like, since I was. Well, since I was 10. You know, basically, I've been trying as hard as I can as a climber, so it's not as if I have quite as much room for improvement. You know, because I've been training like my whole life to this point, but I think there's still definitely some room for improvement. But like, how hard do I want to go? And I don't know, I, I spent, I've been climbing at this wall that's like over an hour hike up to this cliff. And so you have a lot of time to chit chat with your friends as you hike up to the wall. And the other day I was hiking up with a friend of mine who's a professional climber, one of the best sport climbers in the U.S. jonathan Sears. And he was, he was kind of pushing, he was like, he was advocating that I try to do harder routes, like harder grades, because he's kind of like, oh, you know, you realistically probably have a five year window at this point to like do the hardest things that you'll ever do. And he was kind of like, don't you want to feel like you've achieved the hardest thing you can in your life? And I was kind of like, yeah, I hear you. It would be nice to like have a bigger number on my resume or whatever. But I was also like, if I never climbed again, starting tomorrow, it's not like I'd look back at my climbing quote unquote career and have any regrets that I should have done it differently. You know, I'd be like, oh, I'm pretty proud of what I've done. I think I've done, done my best. And, and, and it's great. Like that's, that's fine. And so I'm kind of like, how much harder should I go? And you know, I don't know which things do, which things do I want to do?

Where do you feel most alive? Is it on the wall or is it with family? Is it like.

No, it's like, yeah, it's like soloing walls. So it's so great. I love, I love just rambling up and down things.

Is it soloing or is it pushing the edge where there's, you know, the consequence, Danger, risk, skill, intersection is most precarious, most exciting.

No, it doesn't have to be the most dangerous thing. It just has to be things that are, I mean, I think one of the challenges for me right now is that I was saying to a friend that I've sort of picked all my low hanging fruit, you know, like all the things that I think are cool. Like I've just done a lot, you know, like I've been going really hard for 30 years or I've been a professional climb for 17 years and I've been going like hard the whole time. And so a lot of the obvious challenges and like things to do, I've, I've kind of done a lot of it. And so now anything that's like new and exciting for me represents like a season long project or like some kind of like big thing. Like a couple years ago I did, I live in, in Vegas. Like Red Rock is like the famous climbing area outside of Las Vegas. It's like these beautiful mountains. Anyway, over the years I've solo tons of different routes in Red Rock. And a couple years ago I did this enchantment where I sold the entire mountain range in a, in a single long push. It was like 25,000ft of vertical, like up and down every peak. I tagged every named summit and did like 14 classic climbing routes, like up and down all these things. Anyway, it was like a 36 hour nonstop climbing thing. And the whole time I was working on it, I was like, this is psycho. Like, why is this the thing that I have to do at this point? Because it used to be enough to just go in and climb a route and think like, what a cool day. I sold this route and now I was putting together this insane roller coaster ride up and down every mountain, climbing all the routes and all the mountains in a single single go. And I was kind of like, is this what it takes now to be excited about doing a new thing? I was like, God, that's so tiring. And now I look at the mountain range and I am very satisfied that I did this cool traverse. I mean I was proud of myself, but to do something better than that, I sort of like, oh, that's like, that's too much.

Is it too much effort or prep or is it too much time away from a little bit your deepest investment?

Yeah, a little bit of both. That's the thing, is that, yeah, I mean most of my climbing goals right now are just so much more home focused and like training in the garage and just, you know, because that way I can do breakfast with the kids, dinner with the kids. Like I'm always at home for, for at least the beginning and end of every day.

Yeah, I wonder if this is more about like this quote unquote work life balance, which I'm not sure I can't teach it, I don't understand it. But like, I wonder if it's more of that or if it's more like, okay, am I in this last call it 5 to 10 year window where I need to go big and have another thing. If it's that I would. I would want to know, like, am I answering that bell for others or is that my bell that I'm ringing? You know?

No, that's a fair question because you're kind of like, yeah. Though I don't think anyone expects anything of me at this point, I think. Really, I think you've.

And you've got that kind of freedom.

Yeah. And I mean. And I don't even necessarily expect that much of myself, but I just. I just. Look, I like doing it, you know, it's like, it's so fun to.

Yeah.

And it's interesting. The last couple years, like, the. The biggest projects that I've done have been sort of media things, like. Like TV projects or film things, because they're so much easier to justify the time away from. From family because, like, we're getting paid and it's a professional thing and it's like a good work opportunity and whatever. It's just easier to. To do those as opposed to a personal project where I'm just choosing to spend a month or two away from the family because I want to achieve something for myself that just, like, doesn't feel like. Right. And it's certainly not fair to my wife, who's then left with this, like, giant burden of.

Yeah.

Dealing with. With two screaming babies. I don't know. So it just means that a lot of my climbing has been sort of work focused like that, and. And I love doing that, and I love those projects, but it does. It's just not quite as. I don't know. It's not the same.

If you never got paid again, would you. Would you look for challenging routes if you didn't get paid for this?

Yeah, I would still try to find all the things that. That I haven't done. Like, you know, you just want to find things that are new.

And first, if people no longer had interest in you speaking about your life or your accomplishments or whatever, I'd climb a lot more. You would be okay with that?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I would just climb more.

There's no drug for money. There's no drug for attention.

Well, not to say that it's not nice to get paid for doing something that you love to do. And. And I mean, I like to joke with my friends that corporate speaking is, like, the best gig in the world. Which. Like, what is corporate speaking? Like, just speaking to groups and stuff. I'm like, oh, I get paid to tell stories about rock climbing. Like, I could literally talk about Rock climbing all day. Anyway. I love rock climbing. It's like, yeah, it's the easiest work in the world. And. And I love. If I'm going to do any kind of work, I love doing that kind of work.

And what if that. If that went away for whatever reasons, how would you design your life?

I'd probably just climb. I mean, I'm still sponsored by. By climbing companies, and I would just, I don't know, just try to send more.

You try to send.

Or if it all just totally wound down, if I got canceled for some reason.

That's right. Yeah. Kind of going.

Then I think I would just hang with the fam and climb. I don't know. Interesting.

So then. So then. Okay, so now you're making it a little bit more honest, Right? I'd hang with the fam. So this is a little bit more about a balance between time with family time on the mountain. And that sounds like that's the main challenge. Look, one of my great fears is that when I'm done here, when I die, is that my wife and my son, if they were to say, you know, good man, really tried his best to make a difference, but shit, you know, like, kind of selfish in that, like, he went after it his way. And I wish you would have spent more time with us. It's a fear that runs underneath for me because they are my greatest supporters. They are my greatest challenger of me to be my best. And I do have that. Like, at what point do I stop saying yes to the corporate gig that requires me to go to, you know where, the Middle east or whatever. Like.

But I mean, but your son's 16, so you must have a pretty good sense of if you nail that balance, right? I mean, he's basically an adult.

Well, teenagers are tricky, you know, but my goal is one of my. Like, I want to ask you what. What success means to you, but what my. One of my working definitions of success is is a great adult relationship with my son. Like, I can't wait for that. But that means I need to have the right investments now, too. And. Okay, so. So let's do that. Like, what is successful when.

As a parent or like, in life.

In life? Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, do you know what failure is? Well, premature death, probably. I mean, you know, or. Or like, poisoning all the relationships around you and like, leaving the world the worst place.

Yeah.

It's interesting hearing what you just said, though, with an adult relationship with your kids, because actually, so I live in a Property with two houses. And my. My in laws, my wife's parents live next to us in a separate house, which is totally amazing. And so it's kind of like a little family compound, but. And then my wife, and then my mom lives down the road. And so basically there's a bunch of family, like, in the area. And it's. And it's nice, but so it's been interesting seeing my in laws and my wife as like, adult. Their adult relationship, because, you know, my wife is turning 32 or something, but we've had two kids over the last couple years, and my in laws have been there for. To help with. With all the things. And it's just been interesting to see that. That my wife is probably closer to her parents now than she was through her 20s because they're living together. They're like, you know, they're helping with. With grandparenting and like, all the things. And it made me realize that, you know, I think I'd sort of traditionally thought of parenting is like, from 0 to 18 and then your child is off in the world. I'm kind of like, I don't know. I mean, my. My in laws are like, deeply involved, and they're like, with my wife all the time. And I don't know, it's. It's broadened my vision of parenting. It's more of a lifelong pursuit, which is obvious, I know, but it's interesting to see it.

Yeah. There was a moment where I thought I could go anywhere in the world and post up and be excited about a new culture. I've got this romance about Portugal. I've got a romance about New Zealand. And then at some point, I was.

Like, you like places with surfing?

Yeah, there's all really good surfing. And then at some point I was like, like, wait, hold on. Like, this is where I'm gonna be in my family, and I'm there. That's.

I totally agree. I think for. For my later years of life and like, wherever the family goes, I have two daughters. Wherever they wind up settling. And don't you hope that they stay.

In the same neighborhoods or same. Like, so.

Yeah. Or at least the same region or.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Yeah.

If that. If I had two, I have one. I'd have two houses then, you know, like.

Yeah, yeah, that's. I mean, I think that's. That's totally the way. And that's what my in laws are doing. They live next to us for most of the year, and then they live next to them, their other daughter for. For the Summers when it gets like really hot in Vegas and so they can be basically with their grandkids year round.

Where does your problem have.

I just had a nephew this morning.

Oh, you did?

Yeah, the. Yeah, my, my sister in law had a baby this morning.

Congrats.

So anyway, the in laws are there. My wife's going in a couple days. It's like, yeah, it's a. Yeah, it's the first, the first male in the family in like a generation. Everyone's had girls.

Oh, you have two girls, you said.

I have two girls and, and I have a niece already. And then now we have a nephew. I'm like, oh, what a day.

Where's pressure come from for you right now?

Well, I mean there isn't really any. And that's sometimes what I think is, would like in some ways I think it would help if there was somebody telling you like, you need to do this because like, I think I'm capable of doing a lot more if I tried, you know, if I wanted to, if I wanted to work that hard. But you're kind of like, I don't know.

Yeah, I think this is the challenge of having much.

Totally. You know, and it's funny because, I mean you don't want to complain about being successful, but you're sort of like, but, but I think the joy is found in the challenge and the striving and the struggling. And if you're, there's nothing to strive for or struggle for, then you're kind of like, oh, where's, where's the fun?

But I'm excited for you to teach. Let's, let's, let's revisit maybe in like a handful of months or six months or something to teach like what are you learning about? Because I think the, the new kind of quote unquote pressure is from much a love of climbing. Time away from family and investment in family is kind of the, the, let's go back to the broth. The, the broth that you're trying to sort out the next phase. And again it's like time with family time with climbing. It sounds so simple when you break it down like that. But that, that's kind of the new, the, the transitional phase that you're in. It's not am I going to go climb the next highest notch for my peers or for me to know that, that I did something special. Like I don't think you need that. It doesn't sound like you. It'd be nice. It's good, it's exciting. But the real Tension is between time on the mountain and time with family. And I might just be projecting on you what's happening for me, but that's what it sounds. There. Sounds like there's a similarity there.

Yeah. It just, it somehow feels easier to justify time away from family if it's for something cutting edge, you know, if it's some rad objective.

Yeah.

Because when you're just like, oh, I just want to go climbing, I just want to go out with my friends and climb this route that I've climbed a million times before, you're kind of like, that's hard to justify. So you're like, or I could be at home to do school pickup and, and also just so that my wife has enough time to like, do her own project. She's like working on a book project and like doing her own stuff, you know, and so I think that when you focus on the cutting edge stuff or, or even like I was saying, like doing TV project, like big projects, it's just so much easier to justify because you're like, well, you have to do that because it's like some big thing.

That's right. Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, I think you're kind of right though, the navigating all those like, yep, big project versus small project versus family time.

And I wouldn't.

The interesting thing with family time, though, is I think that, you know, it's like you obviously don't want to spend. You don't want to be 100 focused on your kids all the time because that's not healthy for your kids either.

It's not.

And I've sort of found that if I have several hours a day of parenting, I'm really into it, let's say like two or two and a half hours of like full play devoted to my three year old. Like, we're doing a thing and I do that quite a lot. We spend a lot of time. We have a swing set and we like spend a ton of time on the swings, just like playing on the swings and hanging out. And I'm like, that works beyond that, though. I just, I can't just can't do that many hours a day of just like playing with the child. But I also, and I could be wrong about this, but I feel like she gets a lot out of that. You know, it's like, like you don't need to see someone all day, every day to have a strong relationship with them. You can have like meaningful interactions when, when they matter.

Quality of time is way more important than quantity. There's a balance between the two.

Totally. I feel like I'm only good for a certain amount of quality a day.

There you go.

So I'm kind of like. And maybe that's a personal failing, but I'm kind of like, I can do a few hours of like, quality a day.

Yeah.

But beyond that, I'm like, oh, like, I just don't, like, I just don't love kids the way some people love kids. And I mean, even my kids, I'm like, I love my kids, but, you know, I can only play with my kids so much every day.

Your commitment to be honest is cool.

Yeah, well, I suspect most people feel that way. Yeah.

Yeah. I think you're right.

And I mean, and I've met plenty of other people. Like, you know, say my mother in law has like this remarkable ability to just like be with kids and be present and play like almost indefinitely. But for me, it's like, there's just always something in the back of my mind with like, there are other things I feel like I should be doing.

Yeah.

It's like, it's just. I mean, I can do a few hours and I'm like, into it. It's so fun. It's like beautiful. But then you're like, okay, I should be like training or, you know, if.

You could sit with a true master, who would that be?

Well, I'd say I've met a lot more masters of craft. I've met a lot of people who are good at a thing. I would say I've met very far fewer masters of masters of self. And I may be, I don't know, I'm interested in both because, I mean, I love masters of craft. Like, I love like literally any craft. Like, I love meeting people who are very, very good at a thing. Because I find that so interesting. Like, how do you get so good at the thing? And, and I find that even if it's a thing that I don't care about, like, have you seen the movie what is a Hero Dreams of Sushi?

I mean.

Yeah, it's incredible.

Good. Yeah.

Yeah. So like that movie, it's.

There's a tortured nature to that though.

Like, but like, I don't care about sushi at all. Like, I don't care about rice. I don't care about fish. I mean, you know, I'll eat it, but I'm not.

How long did he have to make eggs for before he actually. Yeah, exactly, son.

Yeah. But so I think that's a perfect example that if someone has devoted enough to their Craft, then they are fundamentally interesting. You're like, that is cool.

Okay, so who would it be, Kobe.

If he was still alive? I'm allowed to just choose somebody from the grave.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And where would you sit with him? And if you only had one question. This is like reductionist 101, but.

Oh, I. I would want to have lunch with Kobe, like, eat a salad with him and just be like. Like, what kept him motivated for so many seasons? Like, I, I, for some, I don't know. Like, I find Kobe interesting because it feels like. And I don't know any. I don't know that much about basketball besides, like, reading a few books and things, but it feels like he was maybe not as talented as a lot of other players, but he just worked so hard and was so great and, you know, achieved so much. And I'm sort of like, I find that more interesting maybe, because it strikes a nerve where, you know, it's. It's like, I feel kind of the same way. What do you do when you don't have that much talent, but you love the game and you just try your hardest? For a long time in your mind.

Do you think Kobe was more internally driven or externally driven?

Oh, he seemed internally driven. I mean, certainly all accounts are like, that. He was, like, psycho about training, like, pushing himself, trying to be the best.

To be able to do the thing, not to get recognized or paid for the thing.

Yeah, yeah.

It's good to have both.

Yeah. But that's the thing. I mean, even the most internally motivated person still appreciates external recognition, you know, because if you bust your ass at something all the time, it's nice for somebody occasionally to tell you that you're doing a good job.

Yeah.

It's like external recognition is still satisfying.

For anybody, and you get told that you are special.

Yeah. But I don't believe them. That's. That's the key.

Yeah.

It's got to be like water off a duck. You just let it all just roll right off.

You don't feel special? Come on.

No, I'm proud of the things that I've done. I. I do think I'm good at a very particular thing, but, I mean, I'm not even like, all my friends who are climbers are all better than me for the most part. It at. At specific aspects of climbing, you know.

Obviously, but the world doesn't know their name. It's an interesting dilemma that you found yourself in.

Well, yeah, well, that's. That's why it's easy to ignore the yeah, the positive, you know, comments. Because you're kind of like, well, you know, I mean, I know all my friends, like, literally all the people that I carpooled with to the Crag the other day are, like, basically better than me, you know, but they're not, like, globally known. You're kind of like. I mean, one of them is a freaking pharmacist in town, you know, Like, I mean, yeah, most of my. My peers that I'm climbing with in Vegas are like, computer program or pharmacists, like a doctor, you know, they're all just, like, dudes with. With jobs. And. And I wouldn't say that they're better climbers than me all the way around, but they are kind of better at specific things, and they certainly have moments. And so it's a weird thing, like.

To look around your friends and be like, I'm gonna make something up. This is for maybe you, but for other people and in our community, like, you know that they're better, but you're the one that gets stopped in the airport, and you've probably got more money in your bank account than they do. And, you know, and they know that you're better, that they're better than you.

It's an interesting no, but they actually probably wouldn't say that they're better. They would say that, like, yes, they can outperform me in a very specific way. You know, I look at them and I only see the thing that they're better at. They would look at me and be like, well, you can do all these other things in climbing.

Like, come on. Yeah, right. Like. Like, maybe wouldn't. Free solo.

Yeah, anything.

Anything, Right. Yeah, I see.

Yeah. But the thing is, like, I'm looking at, like, board climbing is, like, when you train on, like, a training board. Um, like, all my friends better than.

Me in an indoor facility.

It's like, absolutely what I'm worst at in climbing. And all my friends are better than me at that kind of thing. And so I look at that and I'm like, literally everyone's better than me. And they would look at that and be like, well, you're not the best on this particular training apparatus, but, you know, but you. I mean, I am a good rock climb. Like, I can get up, like, mountains and things.

Yeah. Is there one that's sitting out there that is scaring you that, like, if you'd like to go challenge yourself on it?

Mountains.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, yeah. There are a bunch of, like, big walls in the world, and they're definitely on Like a life list.

Yeah.

I think that some of that, as my kids get a little bit older, I'll be more willing to do some of the big expeditions again, like leave for a month or two to like, do things that are, that are exciting. But it just feels like, well, we have a one year old. It's like, do I need to do that right now? It's like, maybe I'll wait till she's five.

I had a motorcycle for a long time and I kind of grew up on them and it got stolen locally. Here it was, it was a Harley and my wife was like, all right, we're done. Until he's 18. I was like, what? And she's like, come on. Just, just, you know, donor cycles. Like, just, just. And then she, like looks at me and I been married to my wife for like 30 plus years. We're best friends. And she looks at me. She goes, well, it's okay if you want to get a bike. Like, do you have a. Do you have an. Do you have any interest in the name of the man that's going to raise your son? Come on.

You know that's harsh.

Yes.

Come on.

Come on. Yeah. Okay, just to wrap this up, I got a fun. You're one of your dear friends, Jimmy Chin, who I've. He's been on the podcast and been able to surf some fun waves with him. And I think he's an amazing human. Maybe one of the world's great climbers as well. He carries gear and, you know, like, maybe not world.

Great climber. World's great climbing cinematographer.

There you go. Yeah. Okay, good. Fair. Put him.

No, no, he. No, he put him in. But the reason he's such a great photographer is that he's fit enough to stay to. To stay ahead or keep up with everybody in. In harsh mountain environments and like on.

Cliffs and with big gear. Yeah, and he's. And he fits in environments really well, you know, like socially as well. So I asked him, I said, hey, you know, Alex is coming on the pod. Do you have a question for him? He says, that's a tough one. I've been interviewing him for 15 years. Has his idea or definition of success changed over the years? What was it in his 20s and what is it now?

You know, in my 20s, my definition of success was sending, like achieving hard things, like doing something cutting edge and climbing. And I think now having done that a lot, like having achieved most of the things on my, on my to do list over the last 15 years, you know, I think it's maybe rounded out a little bit. I don't know, I'm sort of like, you know, no matter how much of that you achieve, like do you succeed in anything? Like, you know, have you actually gotten anywhere? I don't know. So now it's like slightly my definition of successes has rounded out to be a little more like rich, full life, you know, like happy family, like you just all the. I don't know, it's more like a. I mean there's no finish line, you know, there's no like point where you like achieve success. You just. It's trying to lead a meaningful life the whole time, like constantly, which for me I think helps to keep setting goals for myself. So you keep like it's the path that's so satisfying. Like feeling like you get up early and you train and you eat well and like you're, you're living your best life and you, you're like the best version of yourself. And I think that's what's so satisfying in life. And I think that's easier when you have big goals for yourself or like things that you're trying to achieve, like goal posts. The. Maybe I should think of it as like a gates on a solemn course. You know, it's like as you're winding through life, it's like, well, you need the gates to help you steer your way down the mountain, but. Or in my case, up the mountain. But you know, I mean, I think that's kind of my definition now. Like I'm trying to stick to the path.

If you were to finish this thought to live a meaningful life, how would you, how would you finish that?

I have no idea. I don't know. To lead a meaningful life. I don't know. You just do your best, you stick to the path. I mean, I've always seen it as I always call it, like if I'm on the program, like to me the program is like I'm training, I'm eating well, I'm like going to bed early. I'm not like doing any self sabotaging behavior. I'm not like staying up way too late or like binging sweets or like doing things that you know are not really in your best interest, but you just do them from time to time anyway because you're like effort. I just want to live a little. But you kind of know it's stupid. Like so for me, being on the program is kind of living my best life.

It all comes down to, I'd say.

It comes down to having the right goals and like the things that keep you motivated.

Yeah. So it requ. It's. It's incumbent that you really think deeply about where you're putting your effort.

I think so. I mean, otherwise you eventually die anyway and you're like, what did I do with all my time?

That's a great place to end. It's a great place to end. You know, I'm curious if there's been any unlocks or anything interesting that's happened below the surface for you during the conversation or. Or not. It doesn't need to be.

I mean, I think the framing around family and just. I mean, you know, the sad reality is I'm just easing into middle age, you know, and. Yeah, you just wonder like, is this what all middle aged people grapple with or is this.

No, you're different. You're different in this. Like, because most people don't really, really, really, really, really understand what it's like to design their life around what matters most. And so you've got two things that matter a lot to you now. And that's a new dilemma. And you know, I'm. I'm rooting for you if I can be of any assistance. You've taught me a lot from a distance and I know we. We don't really know each other, but you've taught me a lot. And so thank you for how you show up in the world and what you. What you represent in people that want to live a great life.

Oh, I appreciate that. Look, I'm just doing my best, just muddling through, you know, just trying.

But it's that statement. It's that humility and honesty.

Well, I guess because we're all just muddling through.

Yeah, I. I am a mess in progress as well, so I appreciate it.

Totally.

Yeah, I'm rooting for you, man. I. I love how you've designed your life and thank you for sharing as much as you. You're able to do with us today.

No, I appreciate it.

Oh, one more thing. Where do we find you and name.

Your foundation is honda foundation.org you can find. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to promote anything particularly you can find me on social media, but. But the thing I care more about probably is Honolination.org where we support community solid projects around the world. It's been my own sort of passion project for the last 13 years or something. Good.

All right, man. I appreciate you. Thank you, Alex.

Yeah, thank you.

Okay.

Emma, who could possibly follow that? I mean, Alex is so good.

Well, it's actually all on you Come on. We're back on our next installment of Ask Me Anything where. Okay, okay, good. It's our listeners turn to ask the questions and with the help of Yogi.

Is the voice of the people.

Your turn to come up with the answers.

You know what's really fun about this.

Is that I get to do this.

With my friend Yogi Ralph. This is another opportunity where we turn the microphone around and instead of diving into mastery through the lens of our guests, we are going straight to you, our community, for a unique Ask Me Anything episode. You've submitted so many good questions about life, performance, relationships, navigating the complexities of the full human experience. I mean, our community is really strong.

You guys brought it.

We had to split this one into two parts. So Yogi and I were sitting down here for part two where we sat down to answer those questions and perhaps to get us a little closer to our personal best. So I want to encourage you to tune in once more to hear your questions, my reflections, and an exploration of what matters most right here on Finding Mastery. All right, thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Hunch over to findingmastery.com newsletter to sign up. This show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously and the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals@findingmastery.com or slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website, website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode. Be well, think well, keep exploring.