Lina Khan’s Figma victory lap, Meta’s Superintelligence Team, BYD mega car-carrier video & MORE | E2160

The goal of consumers getting more for less has been achieved so greatly by these companies that to go and invest in a competitor sometimes this doesn't make sense. Gmail being free is a really hard price for the industry to compete with the browsers. Being free is an incredibly hard price. That's where the software eventually winds up a gigabyte, a terabyte, you know, just massive amounts of free storage for photos. And we have gotten to the point where the market has made everything free and cheap for consumers with the exception of the industries where our government is running them and over regulating them. Housing, health care and education. If we really want to point the gun of regulation somewhere, for the love of God, crack the monopolies that these colleges have with accreditation. Crack the monopoly on health care and insurance and pharma and crack the crazy regulations that and these companies buying tons of homes and on housing. That's where we need it. You don't need it in our industry.

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All right, Alex, how was your weekend?

Mine was good. I played some poker online when the kids were down. But I think, I think you were actually somewhere else playing cards.

I was in Vegas this weekend for the national heads up tournament. This is like a very famous poker series that kind of went away for a little bit and now it's back. I understand poker. Go Peacock. You know, NBC and I can't tell you any details, but it was a blast. And I can tell you it's great to be a celebrity now that I am a minor celebrity. There was football players from the NFL, there were podcasters, chefs, all kinds of interesting actors and me.

Wait a minute. I've seen back in the day, the old heads up tournaments, right? And in my experience, it was always like a couple of pros staring over the table at each other. This sounds much more like was this a pro Am event?

Basically Pro Am, they have the pros can buy in for 25k, then they have celebrities who come. So just a lot of fun met a lot of interesting people and that'll be coming in a couple of weeks on tv. I'm going to do a little more TV poker because I noticed, you know, as much as you want to think like the work you do here on the podcasts, the investment work, writing books, substacks, emails, whatever, like these are the important things. What I've learned is when people see me courtside at a game or in on poker that has more, more cachet and drives more applications for our fund and people applying for investment, which you can do at Launch Co Apply. Launch Co Apply, then maybe doing podcasts, I don't know. So I'm just. And also selfishly, I like sitting courtside at NBA games and I like playing cards. So a little more. Invite me to your online TV poker. I'll go maybe if I have time.

Jason, on that note, do you want to start with the Linacon Victory Lab?

Well, before I do that, I just want to also make a quick announcement. Foundry University has been this incredible program we created. We just finished 10 cohorts of it. It's a 12 week course. They meet twice a week. Monday you get some content, a speaker. Thursdays you meet in a pod of 30 other founders and you talk about what you got done that week. Every Monday you give us like an update on your company, you fill out a form, here's what we got and then you know, whoever from my team is your pod leader will then, you know, feature you in that Thursday session. It's all on Zoom. We do some in person stuff and boy, it's been amazing. It just keeps growing. I think we had 350 teams and we wind up investing in the top 10% of them. It has not gone unnoticed around the world, this program, because it's a pre accelerator and probably one of the most difficult things that our industry has is this nebulous period between really qualified people with an idea and incorporation cap table being formed. In other words, the foundation of a startup. Now when people get their 125k check from Techstars or our accelerator or Y Combinator or all that has to get done right because the check has to be received and put into a bank account. But most of the time what I see in the field and the industry sees is a bunch of people working on a project on weekends while they're still working at Google or Facebook. And if you do that, use your own computer and make sure you keep some clean lines there. Don't do it on like because they're.

Going to take it from you.

Well, they will have a claim and rightfully so if you're doing it during work hours or you're doing it on their equipment or using their resources. So just be thoughtful folks about that. Anyway, you also know I've been spending time in MENA Middle East, North Africa region and people kept asking me over and over again, hey, when are you bringing this week in startups and when are you bringing Founder University or your accelerator to the region? And after much discussion, one group really wanted us to do this and that was senable from the PIF in Saudi. And so we're going to be bringing this fall. I can't believe this is actually happening folks. It's incredible. We're going to be bringing Founder University to mena. So this is a big deal for us. It's the first time I've done anything outside the United States, first time I've done anything in the region. So what are you going to learn at this thing? Well, I'll be on the ground for the first week and I'll probably come to graduation as well. So I'll be there a week or two a year and we're going to try to find ambitious founders in the region. Want to build great companies, you need two or three people on your team. You need to have a product person hopefully who can write the code and actually build it. I mean maybe if somebody's really good at vibe coding, we've been in it. So anyone can apply from anywhere in the world if you commit to in person sessions in Riyadh, which is really fun and an interesting place to go visit. So if you're an early stage founder, really what we do this based on is the team. So you can go to Meena M E N a Founder University, MENA Founder University. You can pull up the website if you don't mind and you're going to learn a lot of important stuff like cap tables, product market fit, having world class design and what that actually means because it does make a difference. Landing your first customer, landing your first 10 customers. And so here it is folks, we're doing it and I couldn't be more excited. I think the future of technology and business is going to be driven by three regions. The United States, MENA and Asia. And so if we look at those three regions, obviously we're very big players here in the United States and we are neophytes in mena. But we will not be in two years when we have run four of these sessions. So we're going to do I think six sessions to a year for the next three years and then we'll make an announcement at some point about Asia if we choose to do that.

Question?

Yeah, please.

So you mentioned in the American version of this, you fund about the top 10%.

Yeah.

Is that going to be the same ratio over in mena?

No, we do not have a vehicle set up for investing in these companies. However, if they are Delaware companies and they're addressing the US market, Launch Fund 4, when we raised money from our LPs, we told them that was the focus of that fund. So this is an interesting question. Very well done. Your journalism paying off. We don't have as the mandate for that fund to invest outside this region, North America. So therefore you can't bait and switch your LPs essentially or change the mandate without going to them and getting a bunch of paperwork done, which is impossible. So if there are shining stars there, we're definitely going to invest in them from Launch Fund 4. If not, I'm considering starting Launch Mina a fund for specifically companies in that region so that our LPs can do that. So I might set up a 10 or $25 million fund at some point just for the region. And my goal in this third chapter of my life is to really go international. My third act and unless we get this technology dialed in and we have forex, my third act is going to be this global network of founding universities. So I want to see. I was in Singapore, so Singapore and Japan are other candidates. Singapore, Japan, Australia. I've got friends and partners in Sydney and Melbourne, Perth, a bunch of places. So my goal and I think I'll skip Europe unless there's like a really great reason to do it. If there's some amazing country that really wants it in Europe, I would consider it certainly. But there is a big ecosystem already built up there. So outpost for founder, university in each of the major markets and we go from there. Your website is so important. It's how your company makes its first impression. And that's why Squarespace is here to help you design a beautiful, professional, attention grabbing website in just a few simple steps. Maybe you want to show the world your amazing portfolio. Maybe you need to tell your potential customers about your service and share some testimonials. Well, Squarespace is the all in one tool you need for your business to grow and flourish. Squarespace offers stunning templates for every type of site. They've been at this for over a decade. So you can start an online course, you can schedule appointments and you can generate client invoices all with just a few easy clicks. Email. They are obsessed with their customers. Their editor is incredibly fast and intuitive. Anybody can learn to use it and it even works on your favorite mobile device. Plus they've got this new AI powered feature. It's called Blueprint. And it makes it easier than ever before to customize your web design and make it pop. Okay, squarespace.com twist for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com/to get 10% off your first website or domain purchase. That's squarespace.com/hey, and after you make it, show me your Squarespace on Twitter and maybe I'll give you a little reply a like maybe I'll even retweet your new beautiful Squarespace website.

So it's really interesting. We were talking the other day with a couple of investors here on Twist. I think it was the last Wednesday panel and we were talking about how everyone invests early and everyone wants to find these founders early on. And we've talked previously about the price sensitivity of early stage investors and et cetera, et cetera. And people want to get as early as they can. I don't think you can get earlier than founder or university. Right. I think this is as early. So I think you should take it everywhere, man, because it just seems like the cheapest, best way to find the next best people.

The issue with this is it's not the best way to make money. I believe it's the best way to make impact, but it's not the best way to make money. If I was strictly optimizing for returns, I could have a very simple life. I was offered at one point to be in a growth fund with like a seven figure salary and the only goal was to use my influence and name to get maybe one or two deals a year. So get an allocation in Neuralink, SpaceX, Stripe, Anduril, whatever. Maybe that last one would be kind of hard. Anyway, get allocations in, you know, the, the next big thing when it's that series C or something. And most people would be like, you know, I think probably three out of four times people like, oh yeah, I'd like to have Jake Al on the cap table. You know, he'll make a big deal out of it on his social media, on his podcast. So that would be for if I was optimizing for money. I'm optimizing for the journey. And my joy, and my great joy is when I meet with a founder before they're incorporated or as they're Getting incorporated and I get to be the first, second, third investor. And so I've just decided to optimize for that. I mean, what's the point of being, what's the point of having FU money? I'll just end this. Alex, if you don't get to pick the world you live in, I pick the world I live in. And this is like a really good thing for people to understand who are listening, especially young people who aren't going to have the same job prospects. We'll get into that a little bit today. I'm sure we might not have the same job prospects. You're on your own. And here's the reward for being on your own. You work twice as hard. You stare at the ceiling. You have a pit of acid in the bottom of your stomach. You got to have some Greek yogurt to get over it. And then at one point you do cross over and then you realize, I can do whatever I want. I'm dangerous. I can define the world I live in. You. When I offered you to come here, which I did for three years, and I think in whatever the second or third year, you were like, you know, it's time for me. Yeah, at certain point I watched it flip and you, you're like, I could work for private equity folks and be yanked on their chain or I can start the road towards independence. And I think you're probably either there or well on your way. So I give you a lot of credit for that.

I want to just add a caveat or an addition. So Jason mentioned FU money and I don't think there's enough money in the world, Jason, for everyone to have as much as you. But I do think that what young people can do, and this is, I mean this from the bottom of my heart, I tell a lot of young people this who ask me about financial advice is if you start your savings journey early, you'll have more flexibility and independence and therefore you're more dangerous. So if you want to give yourself a shot when you're in your early 20s, save more and bank it and invest it. Just buy some index funds and you will be such in a better place when you're 30th.

So great you say this. I literally was playing my first heads up match was against a 23 year old poker player who had made a million dollars and got a deep run in the main event. Really, really, really nice kid and was asking me a bit of advice at the table. We were getting into a little table talk. It was pretty spicy for A bit there, but then I wound up loving the kid and I wouldn't say anything else because I don't want to spoil surprises. I told him, as you win this money, figure out what your 401k, your IRA and all these acronyms are and max them out every year, 25k, 10k, whatever you got and never touch it, never look at it, never alter it, put it in low fee index funds and every year when they compound, you're going to have more and more freedom. Let's get to the docket. There's a lot going on. So anyway, I'm really excited. I'll be on the ground in Saudi the first week in November. I might go out the week before for FII and speak there. That's the big conference that the Saudis do run by the PIF Yasser and all the great team over there. I spoke at it two years ago, I think, or maybe it was last year. Anyway, I really am excited about this because I think I'm in a unique position right now to build a bridge between these two regions. I've said this before, I think probably the most important region in the next 20 years is going to be not China, but the Middle East. Why? Because they have so much capital and they're so smart and they've been educated in the west and they're so ambitious. They're like the new America. They're the upstart now. And they've been explicit in multiple conversations across multiple countries. Bahrain, uae, Qatar or Qatar, Saudi, the kingdom, always the same story. We've got 30 years of this petro economy and we're going to take all that money and invest it in real estate, technology, private equity, venture capital, sustainable energy, nuclear science, AI. And they're bold. They place big bets and their bets will pay off. Not all of them, but the ones that do hit are going to change the world. So it's really important that the alignment based on people I've talked to in our government and around it. It's critically important that Americans take seriously this region. I mean there's obviously business benefits, but I have plenty of deal flow here in the United States. I don't need to do this. I'm doing this for this is not to be maybe delusional but I do think if the fabric of these two regions gets more intertwined, it's going to be better for humanity ultimately. And you can see what happens when it unwinds with our relationship with China. I'll leave it at that.

I just want to the thing That I was going to say is.

Jason.

Saudi Arabia's population, just to stick with the Riyadh example, is incredibly young. And that's why, to me, it makes a lot of sense because.

Explain that.

Yeah, this is the population pyramid. And so what it shows is the number of people at different age bands. And what you want to see if you're a healthy country is lots of young people, lots of people of middle age, and then people tail off as they pass away. Population charts that are less healthy are smaller at the bottom, fewer babies, and they bulge out in the middle. The Saudi Arabian pyramid is a pyramid. It's literally like there's so many more young people than old people, which means that in coming generations there'll be lots of folks to do work. It's kind of the inverse.

Italy, if you will, or the inverse of Japan would be the other striking one is absolutely, you know, and what that also means is young people who are super tech savvy, super worldly, and these societies, having seen it up close and personal, have been evolving very rapidly, very rapidly. And so when you go to Dubai, as an example, or Doha or Abu Dhabi, and now when you go to Saudi and you go to Riyadh, it's starting to feel to me like New York in the 80s and 90s. That's the vibe you get. It's becoming really cosmopolitan. Most of the people I've been doing business with, I would say like a third are women who have been educated in the West. So a lot of the, you know, I think a lot of collectively people in the west vision of what's going on in the Middle east is probably stuck to 10, 20 years ago, and now it's really different. And the pace of change there is dramatic. So I'm super excited to spend more time there and be part of this incredible journey. Lina Khan. You know, it really is interesting to me how high profile people who cause damage to, like, the ecosystem then come out and, like, try to take a victory lap. And last week, Lina Khan tried to take a victory lap and she was absolutely demolished by everybody in the industry immediately. Maybe you could just cue this up for us. I don't want to ruin your day, but have you taken a look at your cloud computing bill lately? They probably give you some kind of deal to start, but over time, those bills start to add up. Well, our friends over at Oracle Cloud Infrastructure want to help you cut your cloud bill in half. Yes, that's right, 50%. While you're getting better performance, at the same time, OCI is a next generation cloud designed to work with a any application, including AI. It's faster, it's more secure, and you can do it for less. We're talking complete cloud infrastructure and services regardless of your specific setup or workload. And OCI costs significantly less than other clouds with a span of 50 interconnected cloud regions and more than 150 OCI services apiece. So you can access your cloud from anywhere and keep your prices consistently low worldwide. So join Modal, Skydance, Animation and more innovative AI tech companies who upgraded to oci, OCI and saved. See if you qualify for half off@oracle.com twist that's oracle.com twist this offer is only for new US customers with a minimum commitment.

Yeah, so everyone can recall that there was a company called Figma. It was a little startup back in the day. Then back in 2022, Adobe wanted to buy for $20 billion with a $1 billion breakup fee. And then over the next year, the deal was stalled and then never got done. So Figma walked away with a billion dollars. Adobe walked away with a bruised face. And basically, people have pointed a finger at that era of the FTC as being too punitive towards mergers and acquisitions. And today the counterpoint is that Figma has gone public. It priced at around $20 billion in its IPO and then immediately shot higher. It was 47, $50 billion at the peak. And so Lina Khan came, as you can see on your screen, and said this was a great reminder that letting startups grow into independently successful businesses rather than be bought up by giants, can generate enormous values. She calls the Figma IPO and its resulting POP a win for employees, investors, innovation, and the public. And then Jason, there's this guy named Jason who didn't agree, shockingly enough. Talk me through this.

Well, you know, I really think that her philosophy of being able to predict future competition and then putting her thumb on the scale of different transactions is not how business should be run. It should be up to the leaders of these businesses, their employees, their investors to make these decisions as to what's right for them. So we can sit here and do a revisionist history. Okay, this thing had a big pop, of course. Check with me in two years, because this pop, I think in a lot of these recent IPO pops, just my signaling is it could be a situation where they're trading at the same price three years from now. And we have seen some companies with that where they just came out too hot and they had to grow back into that valuation. She believes that a company that charges $10 or $20 a month for their product being bought by another company that charges $15 or $20 a month for their product are in some way going to cause there to be less competition in 10 years or 20 years. It is the most farcical, ridiculous argument ever. This is niche software in the age of vibe coding and an acceleration and SaaS being absolutely by these new technologies. And this happens every single time the government intervenes, which is the market takes care of it. There are a thousand startup teams that could replicate any piece of Adobe or Figma software in less than a year and create a viable coexist or an eventual competitor. And they could do that for under $10 million. People don't choose to do that in some cases because the products that are out there are so cheap, they're so affordable that you would be tilting at a windmill. Which is to say the goal of consumers getting more for less has been achieved so greatly by these companies that to go and invest in a competitor. Sometimes this doesn't make sense. Gmail being free is a really hard price for the industry to compete with the browsers. Being free is an incredibly hard price. That's where the software eventually winds up a gigabyte, a terabyte. Just massive amounts of free storage for photos. We have gotten to the point where the market has made everything free and cheap for consumers with the exception of of the industries where our government is running them and overregulating them. Housing, health care and education. If we really want to point the gun of regulation somewhere, for the love of God, crack the monopolies that these colleges have with accreditation. Crack the monopoly on health care and insurance and pharma and crack the crazy regulations and these companies buying tons of homes and on housing, that's where we need it. You don't need it in our industry. The fact that we have a race to figure out how cheaply we can move people and services around, that's at a buck 50amile, $2amile and going down to a buck and then going down to 50 cents tells you everything you need to know. So it's important for all of us to recognize when the government is overreaching either way. And the government isn't doing enough to crack the three monopolies I just talked about healthcare, education and housing because they're captured by special interests and they're doing too much to get involved and tinker with tiny insignificant M and A dispatch the odd. I'm done.

All right, so taking a couple of those points wanted to let you finish your thought, the argument that people don't go into competition when price points are low is an argument against founding Figma in the shadow of Adobe. So I would quibble with that one a little bit. But what I thought I would do.

Just I think they did.

Right, so that's my point.

Yeah, no, sometimes I'm just saying overall, the reason why you don't see Google and Microsoft competing with Adobe is they think not a big, not a big prize there, it's a minor prize. Right. That should give you an indication now why does everybody seemingly seems to be building a search engine and a browser?

Because that's market big enough to go after.

Market big enough to go after. So, you know, it just kind of proves my point. And you know, there's also open source. People forget that if you want a free version of Photoshop, there's a free version of it. If you want a free operating system, there's Chrome os. If you want a free. I mean there's. What's the free Microsoft Office competitor? There's a free open source LibreOffice. Is that the one? The open source Microsoft Office competitor? Yeah. And some people use that, right? Some people LibreOffice, L, I B R E Office. I think there's more than one of those.

There's OpenOffice as well. There's several of these out there that people don't use much like Linux. So I knew we were going to end up right here of Jason's views, Alex's views, so I ran some math just to get some numbers for us. So I went back in time to the earliest time we could find Figma's valuation, which was its series. It's only raised $40 million at a 440 post. Pretty sure that was the Series C. So IRR to September 2022 at the $20 billion exit price would have been 187%. That number is too high because it wouldn't have closed at that point. It would have closed actually about a year later. But I wanted to make the most positive case. I ran it at today's market cap this morning, so 48.8 billion, not the peak that it reached on Friday. Just trying to be fair here. And that was IRR with the additional time of 106%. So in IRR terms, investors didn't do better if they bought in at the Series C and sold at the IPO than they would have at the figma. Sorry at the Adobe price. But their total return was larger because it eventually became worth more money. So in case you were curious about that, that's kind of the way it.

Should sound, is the internal rate of return. This means what percentage did you gain every year on your investment? This is the pure way to look at an investment because if you were to double your money in one year versus tripling your money in 10, the IRR is going to be quite different. One's going to be 7%, one's going to be 100%. In other words, what did you make each year? This is why venture capitalists, hedge fund managers, private equity, all of that looks at irr. Now you can look at cash on cash. I like to do that as well. But this is the obvious reality that people are ignoring here and for good reason. You never want to let the facts get in the way of a good story. So that was actually a great get by you, by the way. Very nicely done. Because I was going to ask you about that because I actually didn't know. And you did it from series B or C?

A different series C. If you did.

It from the seed round or series A, I think this would be even more dramatic. The IRR for those people, obviously. But you did, you split the baby. You went right for the middle.

Well, I went for the first valuation that I could be confident about. I started at the seed round, but I couldn't figure out exactly what their seed. And also by that point, there was only a handful of investors and we're talking about the majority case. There's no crying in the casino. There's no crying in the club. Everyone did very well here. I just think that. I think Lina Khan's getting kind of a bad stick because deal making under the new administration has been tanking. And if you compare growth rates in deal making in the 2003-2004 range, it was going up and now I had the chart here from S and P. I'll just show you, Jason. It's going down. And so there was all this complaint from folks like yourself who had a reasonable contention with the con ftc. I'm not dismissing what you're saying, but under the new administration, I'm hearing no complaint about meddling from the White House and trade policies that are damaging and dampening dealmaking. So I guess, Jason, I'll accept all the Lina Khan criticism if there's some consistency in condemnation of the Trump administration for scuttling what was supposed to be a strong year for M and A in North America. And as you can see from this chart from S and P Global, it's.

Not for our industry. It's massive. This is probably the overall industry. So I can't.

Yeah, this is total M and A.

Yeah, I can't speak to it because I don't know what's going on in other pockets of the economy and why. If you are a busy person, keeping track of where all your money's going is a constant hassle. Thankfully, now there's Monarch Money. This is not just another budgeting app. No, it's a complete financial command center for your bank account, for your investments, and even tracking your long term financial goals with all your transactions clearly listed and searchable. No more jumping between apps. Nope. And no more constantly re entering your bank's login information captcha. And what city were you born in? You know the hassle. Now you can stay on top of your spending in real time with a dashboard and quickly spot any problems that require more attention. You know how much I love leaving huge tips, right? Well, with Monarch Money I can track exactly how much cash I've spread around to local servers and waitstaff. You know me, I'm splashy cashy. So I don't have to go too overboard and get in trouble with my accountant. My people, huh? So get control of your overall finances today. Visit monarchmoney.com twist for half off your first year. Please use that URL. Please tell them you heard about us here on this Week in startups, that's 50% off your first year@monimalmoney.com twist. I do know in our industry we're seeing an incredible velocity when we look at those other charts that show M and A specifically to tech and we've had them here, it shows it rebounding this year and we've been tracking it ourselves. The number of IPOs, number of M and A transactions. We also have to look at the size of them. This is the other issue too with these numbers and fundwit numbers is we're going to have to look at maybe two year increments if we bucketed them and then by the size of the acquisition in our industry, because the exits aren't all equal. And what we want to see is a good number of single and doubles, I'll call those under $5 billion transactions. And then we want to see the home runs and grand slams, which would be 5 to 25 billion would be the home runs and then 25 billion to 100 billion be the grand slam category. Wiz is a grand slam. And then some of these other ones are, you know, home runs, you know, even Instacart where the last set of investors got rocked, but everybody else did or the early investors did. Well, the late investors did poorly. Still a home run for the early investors. And it's kind of like getting hit by the ball and getting on first pays for everybody else. You might.

It hurts.

It's painful. You got a lot of makeup.

Okay, well, actually we can extend the analogy. All the investors who got hit by the instacart baseball then went out and back to Trump, which was a bench clearing, dugout clearing moment. And then we all had big scrap in the middle of the baseball field and home plate. Is democracy or something?

Sure.

Anyways, Lena Khan took a lap and Jason does not agree.

All right, well, it's not just me, by the way, Vinod Khosla. I mean, everybody was like, and you know, you gotta ask. She wants to be that. She has that main character energy that I talk about. And I put producer Oliver on a new project which is to just get us the main character every day. And when we. Every day at 2 o' clock in our docket slack room, he's going to talk about the main character so we can be up on this. She has that main character energy. So I think she's looking for a job or she's going to run for office. And when you run for office, you want to make sure you try to recontextualize your tenure. And I am not going to allow her to do that. I am going to ride her every time she slings this bullshit and correct the record.

As long as you bring the same microscopic analysis and nicknames to the Trump administration.

I have. I mean, I'm. Bulls and strikes. Come on, man. I mean, literally the whole administration is like. And even Jake, Jason Callaghan is like, their position on me is like, my God, we have to pay attention to this guy.

Well, no, I don't. I mean, no offense to the White House team.

You know, when you're hitting the right note in my mind as a moderate independent, when both sides are equally contemptuous of you, I think of anybody in public life. Is there somebody in public life, Alex, right now as a voice and I'll just characterize myself as a minor one who both sides hate. Is there somebody both sides hate more right now?

Bob Villain, the UK rap punk group that everyone crapped on for a while there?

That's such a deep poll. None of us know it. Is there somebody know of note, like a commentator, Joe Rogan, Megan Kelly? Well, no besties. I mean, pick somebody who is. Is there anybody who's Moderate. Anyway, the bulwark guy, Tim Miller, is he moderate? I don't know.

I mean he's very moderate for the current era. And I would say both sides.

I don't know. I think he seems to be.

He's too, he's too. Well, he's nice, he's well spoken. So I don't think the left does any beef with people. I feel like you're. It's, it's an impossible question to answer because it depends on what you consider to be people, things people are mad at. But I think the only example is the New York Times, which everyone hates.

I think you're right because the New York Times now and CNN are both trying to get closer to the middle. Yeah. If you watch cnn, they added that guy who's like the full right wing guy who just demolishes everybody who's like a socialist every time they come on. And I forgot his name.

I don't, I don't watch tv, so I don't.

I just know it from the clips on Twitter. But there's a guy on CNN who is kind of famous for dunking one of our producers. We'll ask producer Claude to pull this up for us. But there is a. I think the.

Times is a good example of someone that everyone's mad about. Mad at all the Times because in my feed people on the left are.

Accusing them because of the Gaza situation, I guess.

Well, they tend to write headlines that they on the left think minimizes from whence the bullets come. And people on the right accuse them of being too coddling towards Palestinians. So you end up there. Anyways, let's keep mo.

Yes.

Do you want to talk about meta or the end of the early career job market? So why don't we do meta first?

Because it's kind of interesting because there was that viral screenshot that I sent you over the weekend and I asked you to use producer Claude and your own abilities and strategies to just make sure that this wasn't capped as the young folks would say, that this is legit. So pull up that chart and just walk us through it and tell us what's going on here.

Yeah. So this is a chart, a table actually that shows a lot of information about the purported new Meta super intelligence team. This was shared. I saw it from Didi Das from Menlo vc. Didi is becoming one of the more prolific venture posters. I think we could say Jason got it. He's leaning into sharing things that get attention to him and his firm. Totally fine. But when you see a Chart like this table is Menlo. Menlo. Yeah. When you see a table like this, you want to go look at the information behind it and not just take it whole cloth. So Oliver and I, along with our dear friends at the AI model companies, did some work and we found some names from the list that we had made that were not on this list and vice versa. So the actual answer is going to be somewhere between. But we did find a total of 51 people that are now working at Meta's ASI team. And Jason, it's too many names to go through, so we did some aggregate data analysis.

Before we do that, let's just explain the table for people listening. You have the name, you have where they're from, America, Israel, French, France. I guess they're not using. Okay, American, Chinese, Brazilian. And what you'll see in that third column, that's the spicy part, is the absolute extraordinary number of people who are Chinese, I guess, in ethnicity or nationality. Two different things, right? You could have people who are Chinese American. In other words, they're born in America and they're American citizens, but they're of Chinese origin. Or you could have their Chinese and their citizens of China who are here on some sort of work visa. Then you have their tenure in days, which is crazy. Yoe years of experience. I guess that's what that means. Current job, prior roles, expertise, advanced degree, undergrad degree. And when you look at the advanced degree, almost all of them have PhDs, which is in purple. That's what makes this chart super interesting. So let's keep going.

So we bucketed these people that we could find and fact check. So China, you're right, does lead with 23 of the 51 that we could find. Following in number of frequency, it's USA with 14. And then Brazil, Russia, India, South Africa with 2. And then other nations with people that made it to the Meta ASI team include France, Israel, Australia, South Korea, Germany, and the UK. Now, you mentioned PhDs, so what fraction hold an advanced degree? It's 80.3%. Now, I think this is both masters and PhDs, but the gist is these are highly educated people who went through traditional educational channels. The only person we could find who didn't go to college at all was Daniel Gross and Alexander Wang, previously of scale AI, dropped out of MIT, and.

They are both incredibly young. They're in their 20s. Makes sense. Daniel Gross is more of an entrepreneur than a computer scientist. So he's a wild card on this list. He's the joker's wild here. And I mean that in the best possible way. And then you have people who are dropouts kind of thing. 75% have PhD is 50% or so from China. 75% are first generation immigrants. So this is super important. I think when we think about policy and recruitment, which I keep bringing up, had an interesting discussion with JD Vance on stage just two weeks ago. There's two ways to look at this data. Should we be concerned? And I'm sure there are people in the State Department who are that. You have our adversaries, our rivals in China making up 50% of this list. Of that group, how many are spies? Just to say it bluntly, how many are compromised and are spies? Now this sounds like xenophobic and dramatic. There are people in our State Department, CIA who are monitoring the communications and tracking these people. I can guarantee you that not all of them, but some of them. And in fact, these companies are probably tracking them. And if you think that this is crazy, just look at the history of Twitter, Facebook, Microsoft, finding spies within their ranks. It happens all the time.

Yeah, Saudi Arabia, for example, got some people into Twitter back in the day. Famously, North Korea has been placing, well, actually not spies, but workers in a number of companies as well, which I.

Think they were doing just for the.

Just for the salaries because they literally need hard currency.

Yeah, they need money. So. But here it's like a very nuanced point because also what the Chinese government does, according to reports I've read, is they compromise these folks by going to their family members who are still in China and they put screws. Now, lest we pretend that the United States are angels in any of this, or Israel is, or Germany is, or France, we all do this. We're all compromising people and planting people. We've got plants in China, Russia, everywhere. So this isn't like a one way thing. Everybody's planting people everywhere, everybody's spying on everybody. But you do have to think, wow, the majority of the team at, the majority of the team in Meta's AI group, the superintelligence group, is either from China or of Chinese origin. This means two things. One, what's going on with our education system. Two, if we are in competition, who is the loyalty for each of these people too? And knowing how aggressive the Chinese are in these matters, this is a massive red flag. And I'm not saying that in any xenophobic way. I know some people might take it that way. It's just the game on the field. The two rivals happen to be Chinese and American. That's It. I'm not bringing up the other folks on this list from Brazil or wherever because there's like one from each country. I mean, Russia would be the other one I would be concerned about because they are rivals. And obviously, you know, we don't have a rivalry with Brazil and Australia at the moment. We do with Russia and China. How many Russians were on the list? Any. Used to be 2. 2.

Okay, 2. 2. According to 4%.

2, 4%.

I just love. I love Dede, the VC who showed this on Twitter. He did a follow up tweet and he says source Colon, anonymous Meta employee. Yeah, I love it.

The search for what?

The chart that we're talking about that we tried to verify. So on the point about China though, we do have a little bit of information that makes it clear where these people did their education. So for example, the most common university that we found was the Shanghai Jiaotong University. And I'm so sorry to everyone who speaks Mandarin, I'm going to ruin this. But it's the take your best shot. Tsinghua University in Beijing. These are all words that I've read in my head 48,000 times that I never had to say live on a podcast. MIT 3. And then we have Nanjing and Nankai universities coming in basically fourth and fifth. So it really does seem that Chinese universities are generating a simply amazing number of high caliber AI talent. Now your point about should we worry that it's half. I actually, I'm not worried in this case because there's a lot of folks that meta tried to go out and get and couldn't. So this is not saying that 50% of the world's best AI talent is, you know, being born and trained in China versus the United States, for example. It's that 50% of the people that Meta managed to hire for this team do have a Chinese background.

Well, you know, and every time we find a spicy topic like this, my mind immediately goes to new products and services based on the insights. Right. And so based on my insights here, I think the most interesting thing you could do is figure out what is the shortest period of time you could make somebody into a superintelligence qualified person. Going to a research lab and one of these universities, get your PhD as one path. That's a seven year, eight year path. Can we do it in two? And if we did it in two, how? And so this dovetails with some of the discussions we're going to have about mentorship. In the end, and that was in my Nostrikanis presentation. I did last week, which was the end of apprenticeships and somebody could pull up that slide. The end of apprenticeships is a really interesting moment in time and generation. Tool belt, which we've talked about here countless times. Who's going to mentor people to this level of excellence? And then my second point is, if you did make that university, I wonder if you made that university. Oliver, you can bring that up if you want. That slide, although we don't have to even show it, it's just a very basic slide. If you do produce that level of talent and you have a pipeline for it, is AI going to become super intelligent by that time and all these people are going to be worth like a nickel?

Well, I guess you could say that the race to ASI could be very expensive in terms of human capital, but then the race to ASI at the end, once we reach the finish line, will take all that human capital and render it useless.

So well said. That's kind of what I'm getting at, is that you could just literally, if these folks do their job, the reward is a pink slip. Yeah, interesting.

Here's your slide, Jason, and then I have a chart for everyone. But here's what you had in your latest KPMG Nostrakhanis presentation.

Oh, tis I Nostrakhanis, and I'm sounding like Dracula. I gotta work on this.

That's much better. Less vampire vibes.

But yeah, I said AI could mean the end of entry level junior associate jobs. A partner at a promising law firm told me, this is Andrew Yang, former presidential candidate. AI is now doing work that used to be done by first and third year associates. Yeah, AI can generate motion, a motion in an hour that might take an associate a week. And the work is better. Someone should tell the folks applying to law school right now. And I actually was my KPMG speaking gig. I was talking with somebody who worked at a university which is the lowest cost law degree you can get at 13,000 a year. And I challenged them to say, and I don't know, is law school three years?

I guess law school's three. Yeah. Although people say it doesn't need to be.

Got it. So that's 36k. I was just challenging the person and other people in the room. Can we do it for 10% of that cost? Could you, with AI, train somebody to be a lawyer for 13K? So if you are out there and you want to build this product, I will give you your first 125k. If it's just you and you get three founders together. All of you can code or design three people who build. Maybe one of you has a law degree and some domain expertise, but you don't need to have it actually. You just get that from advisors. If somebody presents me with those three people and you have a plan or an experiment to get a law degree to a person for $13,000, I will back that experiment knowing how insane and how much the system will fight it. And the odds are only 10% that we'll ever make this work because God knows those accredited universities are going to try and stop you. But basically what you want to be able to do is have that $13,000 prepare somebody a $13,000 education. Prepare somebody to take the bar and pass the bar in under. I want it to be done in two years. So in one year less for 10% of the price.

Do you want for actually half price?

How about half price? I wouldn't even go to 10% half price, which would be 36 as I divided by two. So let's just say 15k.

Yeah.

For 15k in two years, you pass the bar, build that product or service.

One of my best friends is a startup lawyer and he's based here in Rhode island and he, I think, co owns the practice. Do you want me to drag him on to explain to us how hard that would be?

No.

Okay.

I want to bring the person who can tell me how to get it done. Everybody's going to fight this, especially people who are part of the machine. They always want to fight this. They're, you know, like they're going to be the red cells. Where's the white blood cells? What takes the white blood cells kills things.

Yeah, yeah.

They're the white blood cells that will try to kill this idea. I need somebody who's a lunatic who thinks it's possible.

Oh, that's why I was thinking of my friend, because I think he'd be. I think he'd love this.

Oh, he would. Okay, we run it by him and then maybe we'll bring one. Okay. If he's going to tell me why it can't be done, I know why. I know all those arguments, Jason.

I know you well enough to not pitch someone coming on to tell you no, because that would be boring also. Anyways, this is the chart that I wanted. This is the number of AI publications by year, by country. And China's had a bit of a lead for a while and then the US is growing and India is also seeing a pretty good uptick. I think that what this shows is that some of the public metrics that are associated with intellectual progress aren't so good. And an example of this is who has always had the most patents? Jason? It's IBM. How pertinent is IBM to this? Also, I used to work for a guy who worked at Salesforce and he described for me how that company goes about getting patents and I lost all respect for that process. So I think that.

Here's what else. Go ahead, finish your.

Oh, just proofs in the pudding. I mean, right now we are in a two and a half horse race. The US is the absolute lead in closed source AI, China is the absolute lead in open source AI, and Mistral in France is doing both.

Okay, now if we pull this chart up again.

Yeah, yeah.

Dump that chart into producer Claude and ask producer Claude to get the data for this and put it against population, which is to say the number of AI publications by year, by country, by population, per capita.

Per capita AI papers per year, by country.

Yeah, because India has three times the population of the US at 1.44. China is at 1.4 billion people. They have three times the population of the US and they have, let's see, we're at 30 and they're at 80, so they have about three times as much. India has less. Right. So this is a hard one for an LLM to do right now. But if we could get that final years, what I would like to see is the final year, 2024, the final year's data, if we can source it against per capita, that actually would speak volumes. Then we would know on a per capita basis how many of these elite pursuits we have. And then this is what I, this is why I always, like when we look at Europe, to do the statistics of unicorns by country, by capita. It's really interesting. Per capita unicorns.

So we talked a lot about power laws, you know, and how, you know, if you were an early stage investor in figma, that probably returned your fund because it did so well, you know, good stuff. Think about the incremental value of an AI paper, Right. The average paper, and then think about the value of the real seminal ones, like for example, attention is all you need. That kicked off the LLM revolution. It just shows that volume is not everything. Now producer Claude points out that the nations that have the highest per capita when it comes to research papers here are Singapore, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland. So what we're seeing here is what I call the small country effect. When you only have 25 people, if you do two papers, you look like you're A world class research hub. We should just have a floor of 100 million.

Yeah, I would set the floor at 50 million. 30 million. I'd say at 30 million. Because if you do 30 million, you take out Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden. Well, Sweden's at 35, I think. You take out Norway, you take out Netherlands, you leave the United Kingdom, you leave Australia. Yeah, 30 number. But you also take out Israel with whatever 6 to 9 million people.

Israel always punches above its technological weight. But China was only ranked 21st in per capita AI publications. The US was ranked 17th according to producer Claude. So it's interesting to see how that kind of dilutes under a larger population. I'll just say this, how great is producer Claude?

I just want to give a shout out to our new producer, producer Claude, because for deep research this would have taken like a producer a day or a half day to kind of find this information on the web and then distill it down and now we can do it in real time. It just shows you where we're at as a. And just like hybridist, Claude updates with the request of less than 30 million. Thank you to our partner, producer Claude.

This is from producer Claude. This shows AI publications by country in 2024. And this is only with countries that have more than 30 million people. And this is a per capita number. So notably, notably the UK has the highest number of AI publications per 100,000 people at about. Oh Jason, what's that 13? Then Canada at around 10 or 11. Germany, France, South Korea, then the US and then Italy, which I made fun of earlier. Japan, Spain and then China. So it appears that per capita quite the, quite a different data set and.

You know, the quality of then now the next level to peel the on you would be like the quality of these like there must be and it's above you and I's pay grade but the quality of the citation, like maybe the, you know, the. Maybe there's a country in there getting citations for something that's nonsensical. Right? Or just not relevant or not a highly cited publication. Who knows what the benchmark for that is? Just let's continue on in our docket. That's a really interesting lot of interesting things to think about with regard to immigration and what we're seeing in terms of our own countries. It means we need to get more of these people to the US and make them aligned with US values, get them to assimilate. Trigger warning for socialist libs. Assimilate means take on American values and bring some of your own values. To the melting pot, which was a concept that will also be triggering to some people that when we all bring a little something to the soup, it's a better soup.

Jason, I want to grab the wheel here for a second and just talk about byd, because we were looking at a story about BYD imports of EVs into Brazil and we have a whole bunch of information about that. We can talk about that if you want. But I want to say an LLM point here. I was pulling information from BYD's investor relation website, figuring out how many cars they sell overseas that are electric, and I got lazy and I didn't want to do my own chart. And so I literally just had, in my case, chatgpt. I'm like, can you just chart this data set for me and look at what it made for me? Jason? It's so cute, this. Speaking of time saving, this is a better chart than I could have made in Google sheets. And it took me about three seconds. It didn't make the Y axis the way I wanted it to. So I told it to change the Y axis, start at zero. I changed the headline via a prompt and here it is like, this is.

All right, this is a really interesting story. This company byd is making incredibly cheap, sexy cars that I probably wouldn't put my family in yet because of safety concerns. The last thing Chinese producers are interested in is safety. The number one thing they're interested in is cost. And number two and number three are cost. So do not trust any Chinese product for anything that requires a lot of safety. I would have red flags up. They have a different view of this culturally and in business it's kind of like that would be like trusting people in the 60s and 70s in the US when they're making like. Or maybe the 50s and 60s in the US when they're giving you advice on cigarettes and baby formula. Like, here we go. So here is. Let's just play the video.

Okay.

Over 7,000 Chinese EVs just showed up in Brazil. But here's the twist. They didn't get unloaded, they drove off the ship themselves. Seriously. A few days ago, this giant ship pulled into it. A Ji port, BYD's own ship, the Shenzhen. It's 200 meters long, 38 meters wide, basically a 60 story building on water. But the real shock, it carried 7,292 electric cars, all made in China. Not parts, not containers. A full blown ev. Army dock workers were like, this isn't shipping, this is a landing. And no cranes were used. The Ship has ramps, front, back, both sides. It's called ro. Roll on, roll off. The cars just drive off in a line. About 100 cars per hour, like leaving a parking garage. So why go all out? Because BYD's Brazil factory isn't ready yet. And instead of waiting, they said, fine, we'll build ships and deliver cars ourselves. Other car companies use shipping firms. Byd, they built a fleet. And Shenzhen, that's just the start. More are coming. Changsha Xi An. Eight ships total. A full on EV Navy. This isn't just exporting cars. It's China saying we don't just make cars, we control the road and the sea. Now here's the real question. If a BYD EV pulled up in your city, would you drive? One comment below down.

Okay, so can I, can I fill in some gaps here please?

Because you know I saw this video and I'm like, is this real or cgi? I sent it to junior producer Oliver and I was like, get on this. Just, I'm busy. I don't know if this is true or not. And I think we found out that this is actually true.

Okay, so most true, nearly all true. There's many facts in there, Jason. There's, you can't, it's not a blanket statement. So here's what we found out. First of all, yes, BYD owns a lot of boats. They own six currently with a total capacity of 45,600 or 7,600 cars per on average. They are adding two more to bring their fleet up to eight and those will have an average capacity of 8,100. So yes, BYD owns its own fleet. Yes, they are large. Yes, they are going around the world now. Is BYD exporting in volume to Brazil? Yes, they actually exported quite a lot of cars in I believe it was June because the EV tariffs for imported vehicles were going to rise the next month. So they shipped a lot of cars there. Is BYD not making cars in Brazil? Not anymore. This is now wrong because BYD's Brazil factory as of I believe early July has put out their first quote. BYD Dolphin Mini. So they are now also building cars domestically inside the Brazilian market. Now one more claim. What about the cars driving themselves off? Are they all self driving cars? I could find no corroborating information for that particular claim anywhere. So I do not know if they are self driving off the cars. But yes to the navy, yes to the exports, no to the Brazil can't make them and unknown on the self driving.

There you go Jason, pull up the Yang wang. Yang Wang U8. This is. Or the Yang Wang U9. Yang Wang U9. U9. This is like the craziest thing they produce. They're trying to get into the supercar space, which is essentially when, you know, you're in like the top of the line. Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti. Million dollar supercar race. And this is their EV version, which looks like a Corvette that kind of.

Ran into a Tesla Model S and then has a McLaren wing on the back, basically.

Yeah. And so, you know, they're planning to win. I think that thing costs a quarter million dollars U.S. that's it. Supercars typically start at 500 to a million. The new. If you pull up the Zora, which is the new Corvette that. This is the Corvette I think I'm going to get. I'll show it to you. I've been wanting to get a new Corvette. So it's the ZR1X, which they call the Zora. It just finished the Nuremberg ZR1. Set the record Corvette ZR1X. When you see this beast of a car.

Ooh, she pretty.

Oh, yeah. I'm going to get this. I need to have a place to keep it that's not the ranch. Because driving a low profile like this on my ranch is going to destroy it. But I've been hankering for a new.

This is what you should buy. While we're doing the car talk here, have you seen the McLaren Senna?

I don't know. I've seen the original McLaren. Those are like 250, I think. I have a couple friends who had them.

I'm trying to find a good picture of the Senna. The Senna is essentially their fastest track day car. It's Basically, all the F1 tech you can fit into a their website. Surprising McLaren. Fix your website so you have better shots of your cars. But here's a picture of the center. I'll just pull up this one so you can see it. This is the car that I would buy if I was going through my future midlife crisis. Right now.

Please. Yeah. Oh, wow. Look at that. That is sexy too.

She's the most gorgeous car of all time. They didn't make that many of them, of course, because that's a track car. Yeah, but you can drive it on the road. That's the thing. It's essentially like a speedy track car, but you can also drive it out and about. And Austin's flat.

Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, you could drive it. You know what most people do with the Corvettes. And I had the E Ray. The folks over at Chevy sent me an E. Ray to play with for a couple of weeks. I loved it. And that's what got me, like, you know, back into wanting to own a sports car before I die so I can zip around a bit and have some fun. But you need a lift. You have to put a lift on it. So most people will lower their cars. These new supercars are slow, so low that there's a lift button that you could add for, like, three grand. That's stock. It's an option, basically. So you lift it up a little bit. So, yeah, this is a contender. I like Jason.

I'm getting worried about you. Don't know if you're going to raise fund. 5. Third act of my life. And then you just said, before I die, like, I mean. I mean, what's going on, man?

I just am acutely aware through tragedies in my own life, where I've had friends die too young, that I just think about it now that we're all. And I should have been thinking about it younger, but, hey, the folly of youth. I just think, man, there's a certain number of years left here, and I've probably got less years in front of me than behind me. I don't think I'm going to make it to 108 and less science. So if I have less years, got to make them great. And I probably have equal number of adult years, right? And I got. I've been pretty darn lucky in this life. So you start to do calculations. Like, there's like, your retirement account calculation. And, like, how much money do you need? And this rule of 4% coming out of your principal. And every time I run those simulations, they're like. And I think about my current lifestyle and how I spend, and it's like, you're gonna be dead with a lot. And I'm like, okay, what if I spent three times as much as I am used to spending? And it's like, still gonna have a bucket load left. And I'm like, jesus, I gotta spend more money. And I'm so cheap that, you know, I drive a Model Y. I love that car. It's my favorite car ever. I drive a Model Y, and I typically keep my car seven years. But if you're gonna be. You know, if we're not going to be driving much longer, I might as well have something I like. I've also. I'm going to buy. I decided I'm going to buy 1969. Pull this up. 1969 Corvette Stingray.

So this, this is a what I call a long nose car. Like this car is like, it's got like a room for like, you know, so much engine.

Oh, man, they don't make those. And I'm going to drive it to. I'm going to buy it to drive it. So I'm not looking for matching numbers. I'm not looking for. I'm looking for perfect suspension, perfect engine, drivable. I don't care if the numbers match. I don't care if it's the original engine or tranny prefer it to be a new one. I think they call it a resto mod.

When they kind of restore it.

Yeah, you restore it and modify it. I would like it to have that aesthetics. I think that might be the most beautiful car I've ever seen. Let's get back to the docket here for a second.

Yeah. Where the hell. How did we end up in business anyways?

Well, the BYD thing I wanted to point out because it does dovetail with tariffs and protectionism and ambition. China's ambition is to own all cars on the globe. America needs to think this through. Europe's going to block BYD's, I'm sure of it. There are reports that BYD is going to be available in the EU, like 2028. They're going to block this. The idea of having cars that cost half as much and are like this, well built, like the same way. Japan and South Korea and China are very protectionist in letting you bring cars there. Singapore as well. The United States is just going to have to reciprocate with this or else there will not be a US car industry and there certainly will not be a German European car industry.

There will be. There will be. Because Fiat Jason is building the next hypercar. Let me show you what they're building. Who I present Fiat. I present to you the future of supercars. It's the Fiat Topolino.

Come on, man.

I like this so badly.

Look at that. It's a go kart. Okay, but okay for Europe and you're going to dinner. Yeah, totally fine. That's gotta cost 15k. I'm taking it.

It's like 15 or 20. It's a reprise of the Fiat Jolly, which is a car back in the day.

That was a car. Yeah, yeah.

But you couldn't get the FIA jollies unless you knew people because they were rare. And so they brought back the fun aesthetic for the EV era. I live in a city with small roads. I don't Live in Texas. So that car is perfect.

Here's the problem with that car. I've been watching some safety videos online. You know, I got kids, I want to like, live as long as possible, yada yada. That car, when a, you know, SUV or truck hits you from behind, you're dead.

So true.

Now, if everybody drove those, then we would be living in a Disney bumper car world and that'd be fine. There is an argument on small islands, in small towns to only let those cars in. I think it's a genius idea. If you lived in Kauai or Sardinia, whatever. Just say the maximum weight of cars is X. Every car has to be this amount. And trucks can drive from 11pm till 6am in the city on these roads. But everything else is golf carts. You could purposely make roads for that. But man, the ambition of this company, byd, the fact that they want to build their own shipping cars and driving people off of them just shows the ambition. I do think it also speaks to how quickly we're going to have autonomous cars and how quickly ride sharing is going to ascend. And I am completely diversified, folks. I have plenty of investments in all the players across many different vehicles, like financial vehicles. So I'm not speaking my book with Uber, but when you look at Volkswagen and you look at we ride and pony, byd, Tesla, Waymo, man, there's so many people going after this. There's so many cars that are going to be produced. All right, everybody, that's another amazing episode of this week in startups. If you want to participate in the docket creation, go to thisweekinstartups.com docket followstartups if you really help me when you see us tweet the docket for the day or the day before or the morning of, here's what we're going to talk about. We'd love to get you in the replies telling us, hey, I would love to hear Alex and Jason comment on this or want to comment on that. Give us what you want us to talk about. Because it's a slow month in August, we need a couple of things to talk about. Although, gosh, it's been kind of crazy. We'll see. He's at Alex, I'm at Jason. We all have four or five character Twitter handles that tells you everything you need to know. Old school OGs. See you next time. Bye bye, boys.

Bye.