Make It Up, Make It Real, Make It Recur: The Ultimate Entrepreneurial Success Formula with Joe Polish and Dan Sullivan - 10xTalk Episode #238

The only part that Dan, you really should have Dan doing is just making up the tool and testing it with high level clients to see if it actually works.

Got it. And thank you for taking us through that process because I think that definitely puts some meat on the skeleton of how your brain thinks through taking questions and giving it context and helping people figure out how they all tie together. If you'd like to join world renowned entrepreneurs at the next Genius Network event or want to learn more about Genius network, go to www.gienstruitnetwork.com.

Hello, this is Joe Polish and this is Dan Sullivan.

Welcome to 10X Talk.

We're in the 13th year, lucky 13 year.

We've been doing this. This is pretty cool. So you have this great line. You have a lot of lines. There's actually your team has put together a bunch of books on the quotable Dan Sullivan and all the different quot but you have one which applies to entrepreneurs and anyone that I would say is in the creative, artistic sort of world, which is make it up, make it real, make it reoccur. So let's talk about that. What do you mean by that? And let's break down, make it up. Let's break down, make it real. Let's break down, make it reoccur. And how this applies to most business owners in the framing of 10x talk is if you can do a better job of making it up, making it real and making it reoccur, you're going to do better. If you don't do a good job, you're going to get yourself in trouble, maybe financially, you might destroy yourself financially and perhaps take other people down with you. And you also talk about guesses and bets, right? So we're guesses and bets. So I'd like to talk about that because what I mean is that there's a lot of people that are trying to figure out what they do when they grow up. I think most entrepreneurs that are in Genius Network and in Strategic Coach from having been in small strategic coach since 1997 and having started my first group in 1998 and then having Genius Networks since 2007, there's a lot of creativity that goes haywire and there's a lot of creativity that builds just transformational experiences and products and services for other humans. And there's a bunch of people that are conning people that are con artists. They make shit up, but they don't make it real. And if they try to appear that it's real, they oftentimes figure out how to make Revenue come in from it. But there's other things that are super high quality. And so you're always a first class individual that cares about your clients and so do I. And we attract people that are that way. Also, once in a while, a sneaky person gets into the mix because they're trying to be around people that are genuine and they fake their way through this with faking sincerity. However, entrepreneurs are funny creatures and when they're operating in a good way, they can do amazing stuff. But they could also be a little reckless too. So the framing of this is how do we impart some useful perspective to our listeners about their aspirations going in a way that really enhances themselves in humans along the way?

Yeah, well, to make it up, I mean, it was just an observation in my company, Strategic Coach, of where is Dan valuable and where is Dan not valuable? And you wouldn't want Dan involved in certain activities. I'm really good in the make it up category. And the whole coach program is based on thinking tools. And thinking tools is a sheet of paper. It's got boxes on it and it's got a series of questions. And I ask you questions, always about your experience as an entrepreneur. And you'll write the answers in. And usually I do a timeframe on it. Name the five biggest opportunities. I'll just create a tool here. This is not a real tool. I haven't done this one. Probably will as soon as the podcast has finished.

So you're making it up and you might be able to make it real. Right. We're demonstrating this.

Of all the opportunities, Joe, that you've had, okay. Since you've been an entrepreneur, early 20s, what were the five biggest opportunities that you captured in your entrepreneurial career? That really worked. They really worked.

Are you asking me to share real time?

Give me an example of it.

Okay, so I'll see if I can think of a few. Definitely. The understanding and application of direct response marketing, where you can difference between a $1 bill and $100 bills. The message on the paper. So if you create a more valuable message that attracts more people in the form of advertising or sales letters, it could be the existing clients. You know, you'll get more business. The first one. So messaging. Right. Marketing. Another is it's not the business that I was in that makes something successful. It's my understanding of how to make a. It was my famous jet ski story. Another one is it takes as much effort to sell a singular sale as it does to a continuity sale. And if I would have learned that early On I would have not just sold a course, I would have sold continuity. Yeah, those are some I can keep going.

Yeah. And what I would do then is I'd have another column where I say, what was the actual results of taking advantage of those five biggest opportunities? Okay. And that's one half the page. And I said, now based on the opportunities that you really captured and they really paid off, then what would be some upcoming opportunities where your knowledge and your experience and the skill that you've developed from taking advantage of what would be five possibilities coming up you can hear in the conversation if you want to share it, you could say one of them would be another opportunity. Yeah.

So for instance, when I learned the direct response, I created my first sales letter before the Internet existed, which was my consumer awareness guide. And then that consumer awareness guide not only helped me educate prospects and clients as to why they should do business with me, I then started packaging up that consumer awareness guide along with a bunch of other methods of communication and marketing that worked. And I started selling that to other people. And that one seed ended up harvesting thousands of business owners. It eventually led to clients that generated several billion dollars in sales for them. And my company became a multimillion dollar company.

Yeah. So, and we could go down and you could find five more that are sort of either on the back burner or they're on the horizon. And then what would be the next set of measurements that you would use to actually show that these next five are going to be a lot bigger than the ones that you already did? Okay. So yeah, thinking process. And then down at the bottom, I'm going to say, what are your three biggest insights of comparing past opportunities to future? And you're going to write down your insights. We're going to put you in a breakout group. You're going to talk about what you did and you come back and everybody shares. So what I've just explained there, this is a thinking tool. And I'll call this the opportunity multiplier. I'm just going to give a name to it. Okay. So that's a thinking tool. And we have more than 250 of these in Strategic Coach that have been created over 35 years. They're all packaged, they're all named, they're copyrighted. I haven't copyrighted. The ones with sexy names have trademarks. And now we're starting the process of getting patents on all these. Okay, so here's the thing. I'll make up that tool and then I'll test it and I have A neat thing that Covid gave me, which is these two hour Zoom calls. Couldn't do that before COVID because there was nobody on the other end. But once Covid came in, there's. Everybody is at the other end of Zoom. And I'll just do this and we'll go through and I'll get to a point where I said, this is a tool ready to go. And now Kathy Davis, who manages all the other workshops and all the other programs, she'll take it and she'll put it in and it'll get to all the coaches and they'll do that. So I made it up. I tested enough that it's got the possibility of being real. Then Kathy and her team and other people, the coaches and that they'll take it and they'll make it real and then they'll make it recur because the program will just use those forever. So that's what I mean. I'll just create the first working model, sort of an R and D lab, test it out, and then we have a team that takes it to the patent company, to the intellectual property lawyers, and they take it to the patent bureau and we get it back. But the only part that Dan, you really should have Dan doing is just making up the tool and testing it with high level clients to see if it actually works.

Got it. And thank you for taking us through that process because I think that definitely puts some meat on the skeleton of how your brain thinks through taking questions and giving it context and helping people figure out how they all tie together. So let me ask you this same question in a different way. There are people that make things up in the attempt of making it up. They overextend themselves, they overhype themselves. They may be desperate, they have no money, so they got to sell something to somebody so they make it up. They are on the path of trying to make it real. They're trying to bumble their way through and figuring it out. And they are hoping that they're going to create some ability to make it reoccur. I'm saying this in sort of a broad way where they make it up. But what they make up and make real is a disaster. They get themselves in a lot of trouble or they don't know what the hell they're talking about. Or another flip side of getting yourself in trouble is you take what someone else has made up, made real and made reoccur, and you try to steal it. And both me and you have been recipients of these scoundrels. That come in and that's of course why you're doing IP protection to one degree. It's also adds value to the tools and all that. But you know, you're very big and what I've always respected about you is you're not out there teaching people things under the emphasis of going, you know, the way to have success in businesses by stealing from others. And there are full blown organizations and individuals or their entire business model is stealing everything from someone else and then encouraging all of their clients to do the same thing where they call it like, you know, funnel hacking, which is basically stealing someone else's funnel or S and D which, you know, steal and distribute or swipe and deploy. And a lot of my friends, and actually good people, not all bad, have utilized these words and these terms. Not really thinking through the intention of who is the originator of these things and what the hell are they actually doing. Right? And so yeah, it's smart to look at what other people are doing. Yes, you can use AI to reverse engineer almost anything. The question is, you know, when you just outright walk into someone else's business or their home, or you become a client or a fake client with no other intention except from stealing from them, you're really not making it up and making it real. What you're doing is you're being a thief. And some people, because they can't be successful making it up and making it real, or they have not yet figured out, like you said, how to best utilize Dan. They don't know where what I call Tammy, where do you put your time, attention, money, effort and energy into that produces a result. So a lot of people that would listen to this is like, I got a bunch of great ideas, I just haven't yet figured out how to make it work. I don't know what to do.

So here's the thing about that. I'm not good at everything. You know, I'm a writer. You know, I was a professional advertising writer before I started the coaching program. You know, big agency, good enough, I could have made a, you know, a career out of it. But I couldn't see how five years in the future would be any different than what I'm doing now. It would be project after project, job after job. But I don't own the company. You know, somebody else owns my time. So I really couldn't go anywhere with that. So I'm really good at this one skill. You know, at 80 years old, I'm down to this is what I do really well. And this drives the progress of 120 team members in the company. We're closing in on 3,000 entrepreneurs in the program. And this is all copywritten material. Two thirds of it is trademarked. Now, we're having great success with the patent bureau getting patents on our stuff. And it's always interesting to me to create a new thinking tool, because I'm listening to what entrepreneurs are saying about their lives, and I said, I bet I could do something with their thoughts, that if I gave it back to them in a structure, they would think better, they'd make better decisions, they would communicate better, they would get better results. And that's why I'm in this loop with these very bright, ambitious, talented entrepreneurs. And I'm just feeding them back in a structured form. Kind of what they're thinking is so that they can think about their thinking. Yeah. And that's all I really want to do. And if I'm 90, I'm doing this. If I'm 100, I'm doing this. But I've created a really great organization around me that the moment I prove another tool, they run with it. There's a whole process. It's like a factory that does it. So the factory makes it real, and then they make it recur. Our coaches with a workshop structure, they make it real. So that's what I mean by make it up.

Let's talk then about collaboration. So you know Jason Corman, CEO of Gaping Void.

Great guy.

Yep. Jason came out and I interviewed him at the last 100k meeting on culture, and everyone really was blown away. And then.

Wicked sense of humor.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. Some people don't get his sense of humor, but he's funny as hell, and.

So I'm never the object of his humor. So that's true.

So we had a whole. You know, that was an interesting last 100k meeting that we did. I had Chris Collins, who wrote that book I Am. I did a great interview with him. And then, you know, Jan, the senior editor of the Epoch Times, and we talked about organ harvesting in China and what's going on in the world, all kinds of wild stuff. So Jason, he's built very successful businesses. And back in the early days of blogging, he came across Hugh McLeod, who was a blogger, and he was also an artist. And I think Hugh would admit to this himself. Hugh was a heavy drinker and, you know, basically doing really creative art and drawings on the back of business cards to communicate memes. You know, I can never say the word mnemonic. How the hell do you say that word.

I never use it.

Okay, yeah, it confuses me. But so basically he wrote what was his first book called, not blogging in your underwear, but it was ignore everybody. That's his angry book that's filled with profanity and I think very insightful and hysterical. And you're the one that first I saw, you know, talking about that, and then I tracked down Hugh and then that led to Jason, who's the CEO. And Hugh never could have built up the company they have right now without Jason. And Jason just noticed someone that was making things up, but he made it real and then they made it reoccur. And there's a lot of collaborations that work and there's a lot of partnerships that are disastrous and they end up starting out in a certain way. Some go somewhere than the, you know, partners might end up suing each other, not getting along. And, you know, our friend Ben Hoodie, he said to me early on, he's one of our partners in my ghost town. And before we bought the ghost town, he said to me, the ship you never want aboard is partnership. And then he's hearing me talk about all these creative ideas on what I want to do with a ghost town if I want to buy it, such as putting it in VR and doing events and, you know, NFTs and Sheriff's Association. The idea that came from you and Cleaner honey and Cleeader Times, the newspaper and all these different things, some are in action and others are on the board of things we want to launch. And he says, can I become partners with you? Because I've never heard anything like this because he's a real estate expert. So now he becomes a partner and that leads to us getting into the mining exploration business. And now we've taken that company public. Right. So it's on the Canadian stock exchange.

Eddie and Baker.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's called King Global. And so basically we have all of these things. So some collaborations work, others attempted, they don't. And others end up in just people hating each other and fighting. But I always liked the Jason Corman example because he saw a talent and he went in and figured out how to leverage it and wanted to leverage it. You know, he just did it. And I think that's really kind of cool when people can bring together, you know, something that they couldn't do without the other person. Whereas I think when you get people that just want a partner because they're hoping the other person's going to do work, and then the person that's the partner hopes that the other person is going do work. And then all of a sudden you got a bunch of either one or two or several groups of people that no one's doing anything except having freaking meetings all the time, and it's going nowhere. I don't know if that's the best question to ask you because you have your front stage talents.

But, you know, there's a very interesting scientist that I follow when he writes a book. His name is Joe Henrich, and he would actually be a really terrific speaker at your national conference. Joe Henrick. And he simultaneously tenured at four different univers in the United States at the same time. He's so good at what he does, he has a book which is called the Secret of Our Success. And he says, why humans? Not the fastest creature, not the strongest creature, there's so many other species that would make us food. And he says, and yet humans are the dominant species. And he said, the reason is that humans are the only species that can specialize individually. Specialize. It's the only species where every human can actually specialize in a different way from other members of the species. You know, you name any animal, you name any creature on the planet, they operate within a fixed bounds of what they can do as a creature, as an individual. But humans branch out. And he said, somewhere in our evolution, and he said, I don't know, million years ago, some human said, you know, Rocky over here can throw a stone a lot better than I can. He can throw it farther and much more accurate. And he said, so what we're going to do is work out a deal where I'll go and I'll shake the bushes and everything, and an animal will come out, rocky, throw stone, and he'll kill the animal, and then we both eat. And he said, we created a collaborative intelligence where each individual constantly develops new capabilities. So I'm writing one of my quarterly books over the next year. It's called Everybody Doubles down on Something. Now, the whole thing is, it may not be good, what they're doubling down on. And you see that a lot. And I mean, it's very interesting. You have the Genius network and you have the Genius recovery. Both are examples of people doubling down. Geniuses are doubling down on something that produces something great that's valuable. They get paid for it, they get famous for it. And people who double down on an addiction essentially destroy their life. But they're both being fully human in the sense that they're doubling down on something. Okay, so Hugh McLeod was doubling down. He was a copywriter, if I remember, in New York City. He was an advertising copywriter. But he would go to bars where he enjoyed his addiction, and he would talk to people. He said, you know, you know, the conversation we just had, I'm just going to draw a picture of it. And he'd show them the picture of it. And then he'd give it away.

Yes.

Then he'd do another business card and he'd do another picture and he give away. And Jason came along and said, he's got the first part right. He's making it up. But giving it away is not a good business model.

Right, right. No, exactly. And then Jason.

So it's a collaboration between, you know, gaping void is the collaboration between the person who could make it up and the person who could make it real and make it recur. So that's what I see. And humans can do this in infinitely new ways. Humans just have this ability to collaborate and create entirely new things that never existed before.

Right, right. So how do you take the make it up brain and temper it? I know that a lot of your tools, you know, I have my perspective on it. And of course, I've had God knows how many countless. We've known each other forever. Not forever, but for many years. And we've been doing a podcast for 13 years now. So we've had so many conversations. How do you temper the creative side of you to not get so caught up in the. Make so many things up that no one can keep up with you? The artist that we have in our ghost town, Ray, he has a boneyard. He doesn't want us to throw anything away if it's two by fours, if it's wire, throw it in the boneyard. I will figure out how to turn it into art. And what this guy is able to make up with what most people would consider garbage is unbelievably awesome in an art arena. But he's just like many creative artists, and he will admit this, has always had trouble making money with it, even though he's had moments where he's made a boatload of money and then other moments where his creativity is just off and it's not even thinking about how to monitor it because it's in the state. And he's incredible at teaching people how to be present because of where he goes into this creative space with art. But also there's the side of business where if you're going to have payroll and have built a team around it, you got to have money. Like, who's going to pay for it. Right. So how do you manage your add your creativity in a way that it's a gift, not a curse? Because it's a curse for some people, it's a gift for other people.

Yeah. I think two things. I have a tremendous commitment to the client who would pay me for it, and I have a tremendous commitment to the team that does the other parts of the process. So I have a role, but it's just one role in a team that has a lot of other roles. And then the ultimate relationship is actually with talented, successful, ambitious entrepreneurs who want to increase their freedoms as an entrepreneur. So I don't create any more than what's needed to keep the team going and to keep the workshop going. And then I read a lot. But I have deadlines, and I'm very good with deadlines. I'm very good at getting stuff done when it's supposed to be done. My experience since childhood, I've always been in teams. I grew up in a family farm with six siblings. Farms are pure teamwork. You know, I was in sports my whole life. Always team sports. And I was a good teammate. Not a great athlete, but I was a good teammate for the level of competition that we were playing. I was in theater. Theater is about teamwork. I was in an advertising agency. It's about teamwork. I was in the army. The army is about teamwork. So my whole life, even though I have this individual capability, has really been about my role in the team.

Right. Okay. And there are some people that aren't into teamwork. They can't do it. What do you recommend for those people?

They need someone who talks to them tough and said, look, I can keep you fed. I can create customers for you and everything, but there's gotta be some rules here. When we have a deadline, you've gotta come through. You know, I'm just very, very good at making myself easy to work with.

Yeah. You know, I have a new COO who you met, and he's great. Yeah. And based on the time that we're doing this podcast, it's not gonna come out the exact day that we recorded this, but there's a, you know, relatively new team member who. Very nice person, and they're being let go 55 minutes from now. And I remember talking with him last night saying, you know, because we've given this person every chance and opportunity we could, and I. I hate letting people go. And at the same time, it's not a right fit for us, and they're not doing what they were hired to do. We've given as much support, even more than I think is needed, and it still pains me. And I'm like, yeah, let me talk to this person, et cetera, et cetera. And he's like, nope, you didn't hire me for that. Like, you don't need to be doing this. I got it. Let me do it. I'm the one that brought this person on also with you wanted and they've just not cut it. And man, I could not have done that in this particular context 20 years ago. And therefore I didn't have team like I do today.

Right.

And I still feel like I suck at stuff.

Well, the big thing about that, you were the last person in your company that thought this person should be fired.

Yeah. Yeah, you're probably right.

Herb Kelleher, who created Southwest Airlines, he says when you're the CEO and a thought comes to your brain, you know, I should fire that person. He said, you should stop whatever you're doing, walk in and fire them. Because you're the last person in Southwest Airlines who thinks that this person should be fired. Everybody else knew they should be fired, but they couldn't do it if you were supporting him.

Right, Right.

Well, first of all, I don't look at as a disaster. It's just that things are not working together. This teamwork situation isn't working. You got to find another teamwork situation where it works. You know what I'm really enjoying about our present age And I don't want to slip too far into the politics right here. For the first time in US history, civil servants understanding what it's like to be fired. Private sector, you always knew what it was like to be fired. Government just never knew what it was like to be fired. They said, we're government. How do you fire us? And they said, it's pretty easy. You know, we change your Zoom account and your pass doesn't work at the front door. Yeah.

You know what's interesting about this is I granted, I think that this is amazing. So much of the waste and people hiding behind bullshit and the corruption and everything that's getting unearthed. And I also, the empathetic side of me feels bad for the good people that are swept up in some of these things, just simply because it's become so infiltrated with corruption. Like Chris Voss, our friend, the former top international FBI hostage negotiator. He's in my 100K group. He is doing a two day event at my office starting this week. I won't be there. The first day, because I'll be at another event that I'll be speaking at that I committed to before these dates were really set in stone. And I'll be there the second day. But I was talking to Chris a while back about, you know, the corruption in these three letter organizations, you know, CIA, FBI, whatever. And I'm not speaking for Chris. This is just my remembrance of the conversation where I said, you know, where does that sort of happen? He goes, well, most the people in organization that are like the field cops, the people that are out on the streets or what's the term he used, you know, the people on the field, he said, predominantly those people are really good people, they're really hard working, they care. Where you see a lot of the corruption happen is when it goes up to the administrative levels in these organizations.

FBI, I think it's called the seventh floor.

So is that where it is?

Yeah, that's the seventh four problem. Yeah.

So I often think about some of the people that. But you know, like, if you see an organization I have a hard time with, like certain pharmaceutical companies, let's say Pfizer, you know, I've met people that work for Pfizer that seem like, you know, really decent, caring people. But I also see like, you know, you look at a company that's been sued God knows how many times, like, what is going on there? How do you work for an organization like that? And, you know, it's an interesting thing. I don't know how to grapple with that sort of thing. And again, I know we, I talked about, you know, make it up, make it real, collaborate, things like that. What happens when, you know, you start collaborating with people that you find, oh my God, like this person is full of shit or this person is unethical, or the products.

That's correction. That's how corruption starts.

Yeah, exactly.

No, I mean, everybody thinks it's like you're stealing billions of dollars. No, you're going along with a decision that you. One, you don't think it's the right decision and you don't say anything. Yeah, that's corruption.

So here's the point. So to take it to the. Firing somebody, you know, and oftentimes maybe not fire yourself is the right way to describe it. But when someone's just not a right fit, you got to get them out of your space. You got to get them.

They're trapped. Yeah, it's almost impossible to fire yourself. So I've done it maybe 10 times in my 35 years. I've done it about 10 times where.

You'Ve had to fire yourself. What would be an example?

Well, not firing myself, but firing someone else.

Oh, okay, okay.

That person could not fire themselves.

Right.

They're stuck. They know it's not working, but they don't have the ability to see beyond where they are.

Yeah. And then they'll get mad at you. And then sometimes they may come back and thank you. Which I've had happen.

Yeah, it depends on how you do it.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

So how do you get yourself, let me use the word, fire yourself. Where you're in a situation, it no longer is serving you. This happens all the time, especially as an entrepreneur. You get into a. It's just not working. I mean, I remember you walked away from a. You ended a software after. I think you guys said it. I don't know how many years ago this was where you spent over a million dollars on development.

Yeah. 1996. No, you were in the program at that point. So it would have been 98 or 99, I think. Yeah. We just said, you know, can't do it. And the software company says, you can't stop software, you can't stop software. And we said, we're stopping. And then we sent a letter out to everybody and said we made a mistake. A hundred people told us. And we really checked around before we started the project. We just happened out of luck or circumstance, just talked to the hundred people out of a thousand who wanted to use it. You know, we said, nobody's using this. Yeah. We had to stop the project. And after that, we'd never started another software. We hired software people who really. It was a working system. It wasn't custom designed for us. And we custom designed ourselves to use this system. You know, we use Salesforce now for everything.

Well, the point is you're able to walk away. And when someone sees corruption, even at a very small scale, I think get the hell out of there. You know, there's no such thing. You can't write a great contract for a bad partner. I mean, it doesn't work. Sell something that you know is not aligned. I mean, you could, but you're going to be miserable. The point of this conversation is I would really like to impart onto our listeners any perspective or wisdom or advice or suggestions that can save them from, you know, the best way to get out of a hole is to quit digging it. That's one thing. And everyone could, if they find their skill, their talent, who they want to be a hero to. Which I think is a great question. You Ask.

You might not remember them, but we had really brilliant physician in the program. But he had created a virtual reality program that allowed you to go inside the organs inside of the human body. And he said, you know, all surgery in medical schools is still taught out of textbooks, two dimensional textbooks, but he says surgery is always three dimensions. So he created this and used Oculus. And so the students would have an Oculus Palmer, Lucky's invention. Then they go inside an organ and then the walls would talk to them and said, this is what I do. This is what I do. And this. But he had. All the tech companies were wild about it. The medical schools were wild about it. And then he didn't do anything for three months. He didn't do anything for three months. And he says, now I have some complications about it. And I said, okay. He came back three months later, no progress. And I said, can we have lunch? So we have lunch. And I said, can I guess what the complication is? And he says, sure, what's the complication? And I said, she can have a half of what you've earned up until now, but she can't have half of the future? And he said, yes. I said, how long have you known? And he said, 17 years. I said, okay, it's a year from now and nothing's changed. Is that okay? He said, no. Six months? No. Three months? No. A month from now? No. He sent the divorce papers, which had been written up for a year. He sent the divorce papers three days later.

Wow.

But oftentimes the problem that you're having with the person isn't the problem. They have an outside problem.

Yeah, yeah.

And I find it's always social. All business failures. There's an outside social problem.

I'm writing that down. What do you mean by social? You just mean personal life.

Marriage. Marriage, family. You know, they're having family troubles and everything like that. There's always a incredibly distracting, energy draining situation outside the business. Business is one of the cleanest environments in the world. I mean, business is really easy. You got projects, you got deadline, you got teamwork and everything like that. So I always tell my program advisors when somebody has a really great year in the program and they don't renew until the next year. I said, it's not an entrepreneurial problem. It's not a program problem. It's something social, something in their life isn't working. And I said, one of the things we experienced in the program, and Joey, you may experience this too, is that they're growing so fast in strategic coach that they're making everybody in their personal life uncomfortable with their growth because none of their friends are growing.

You are so absolutely right. Yeah, that is true. I've witnessed that whenever I've helped someone really build and grow up their business, if they do not have a reinforcing social structure and connections around that that can jive and support their aspirations, all of a sudden, everyone around them becomes super uncomfortable. And it's the whole overused metaphor of the crab in the bucket sort of thing. Yeah, exactly. All right, this is good, Dan. So that's a good episode.

Is there any fun? Had one more guesses and bets.

You know what we should do? Let's talk about that and then we'll carry that on to the next episode. How about that? Let's first describe, say, guesses and bets. And I'd like to talk to you a little bit further on the next one. Why don't we do that? I think that'll make for a good conversation.

Yeah, it's really easy. I can tell you exactly what the future is.

Okay.

All guesses and bets, of course.

Yes. No, that is true. So here's what I say.

You know that cleaner idea you had?

Yep. Guesses and bets.

Guesses and bets.

Totally.

Yeah.

All right, so what we're going to do, one of the things we're going to talk about on the next episode is guesses and bets. And you can just guess right now what that may be, and we'll bet and see if you're right.

So.

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