Millions Watched Me Dance — No One Saw My Trauma I Derek Hough

There was this terror. I was a young boy and I had night terrors.

How old were we?

I was before 8 years old. And the reason why I know before 8 years old is because I grew up Mormon. And you get baptized when you're 8 years old. And I just remember being excited to be baptized because I was excited to wash away all these things that happened to me as a young, as a young boy.

What if I told you one of the best choreographers and dancers in the world. Learn mastery through stillness. Welcome back. Or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I AM your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high performance psychologist. Now, the idea behind these conversations is quite simple. To sit with the extraordinaries and learn to really learn how they work from the inside out. Now, today's conversation is with Derek Hough, under 21's Latin world champion, four time Emmy award winner, six time dancing with the Stars champion, and one of the most respected affected dancers and choreographers on the planet.

I think this feeling of always needing to achieve something, to be successful, to win, I equated all that with love. It was like in order for me to feel love or to feel worthy of love, I had to succeed.

So I wanted to sit with Derek here, not just because of Derek's mastery of craft, which is undeniable in the world of dance, but for his commitment to mastery of self and how he expresses that through. Through radical honesty.

There's a moment in my life as an adult. I was experiencing some. Some anger. I didn't quite understand where it was coming from. Who I was as a person wasn't congruent with who I wanted to become and who I wanted to be.

Trauma, ambition, identity, healing, love, it's all in there. And we explore the moment when life forced him to stop dancing and what he found in the stillness.

Going from a thousand miles an hour, being on tour in front of thousands of people with my beautiful wife. We just been married for three months. Then at the hospital, the doctor talking to me, just basically saying that, you know, she might not survive. You're going from like, the lowest of lows to then, like the smallest things being the highest highs. No award, no competition, no, like, achievement could compare to the moment when she said her own name and I knew that it was her.

I really hope you'll find meaning in this week's conversation with Derek Hough. Derek, this is a real treat and I'll tell you why. One, I've loved your body of work. And I became familiar with it because my wife grew up as a dancer.

Amazing.

Like, when somebody is skilled at something, they see it differently. And so I'm watching you, and she's like, oh, wait, but that. And this. And so I got a kind of a tutorial of how special you are at what you do.

Thank you.

And so this is a treat.

Thank you, man. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm glad you said body of work, and I love your body. I thought it's gonna be a different type of interview, but.

Yeah, yeah, just quickly. But you are fit. I will say.

No, no, but it's awesome that you were talking about your wife, you know, being a dancer or having dance background as well. Because I feel like once you've experienced dance, once you've danced, doesn't matter if you leave it. You haven't danced in years. Just. There's something there. There's something that always stays with you. It's so special.

I mean, she likes to. So I grew up surfing, and I. I'm on record saying it's the hardest sport in the world.

And she's like, can I just say something? I'm not bad at. I. I can wake surf, like, all day, and I cannot surf for the life of me. And everybody makes fun of me. They're all my friends who surf. They're like, man, you are not good at surfing.

It's funny, because you're super athletic.

Respect to you.

No, but. So I'll say something like that. And then she'll be like, you can't say that you never danced. You know, and so she's like. She thinks it's the hardest in the. You know, whatever.

So listen, it's being, you know, being a dancer. You know, I often say this as well, especially with people who say, like, oh, I don't dance. I often say, well, when did you decide that? Because I feel like we all have dance in us. So you look at, like a toddler, right before they can walk or crawl, you put them on the ground. You put music on. What do they do? Right? They go. They're kind of like bouncing around. They're bopping around. It's like, in us, it's a desire to move. And if we look at, like, you know, tribes and history and culture, it was like two things that brought us together. It was food and was dance. You know, we mourned with dance, we celebrated with dance, we prayed with dance. It was the way we did things as community and then as we got older and we kind of entered into civilization and things, and we started worrying about what people think, and we start worrying about people judging us. We suddenly become more closed off. And then that's why people, you know, drink, so they can be like, yes, I feel connected. You know what I mean? I'm back to myself. And they can dance and give themselves permission to dance. So dance, for me is. It's not just like an art form or it's like a part of who we are, you know?

How did you get exposed to it? Let's go back. Let's go back early days, because I do want to open up your genius and really understand mastery of self and mastery of craft with you from your lenses. But let's go back to where it started. What is important for me to. To know, to really understand you.

Well, for me, the way I got into dance was I have four sisters, and I was the only boy. And I would sit in the parking lot while my sisters were in dance class, and my mom would just drag me in. She goes, you're gonna go in there and dance? You're just sitting there doing nothing. And I was like, no, no, no, I don't want to go. I think it was about 9 or 10 years old, but I did not want to go. I did not want to go. I was screaming, kicking, and be like, no, dancing's for girls. This is dumb. And I walked in there and I was like, oh, there's girls in here. I quite like this. And I immediately gravitated towards it because of the music, first and foremost. You know, you hear the music, the bass hitting your chest, and just the rhythm. And then once you start moving your body to it, once your body experiences syncing up with a beat or a rhythm or music, something just happens. You're like, oh, that. I like that. What is that? That's. That's an amazing feeling. How do I continue to feel that way? How do I recapture that? And then you're constantly kind of like, wanting to create that feeling.

You had that at a young age. That was an early entry. So.

Early entry. Early entry. And also, to be honest with you as well, the desire was also community. Because when I would go to school as a young boy, you know, like many kids, I just didn't feel like I fit in. You know, I was like, I didn't really have friends at school. I didn't have my little click or. I definitely felt like an outsider always. I think even at a young age, I feel like I had to Earn being a friend or earn something and by doing something really great and doing something cool. So for instance, in like the schoolyard, I was last pick because I was a short, kind of, you know, scrawny little kid.

And kickball was the one.

Yeah.

Did you play kickball?

I didn't play, no. It was football.

Football.

And I was so scrawny. But what took me into dance was all of a sudden I felt like one. I had a mentor and a coach and a teacher who was speaking to me not like a kid, but like in a. Kind of like an adult. Like he was just like. It was just the way he communicated. It was, it was like, oh, I feel like I'm a part of something. And then of course, the other dancers and the music, it just felt like I was, I belonged there, you know, as a belonging. That was really wonderful.

And you didn't have that experience on the schoolyard and other places. Like there was an awkwardness. And yeah, to, to back your point up is that I think it's the job of adolescents is to be as awkward.

Sure.

As often as you can without numbing it. So that you learn how to be awkward. So that when you get out of the awkward phase, you're okay with those awkward moments.

Yeah.

But if you drink over it or drug over it or numb it in any other way, then you don't get enough reps, you don't get enough time under tension with being awkward. And then you go into adulthood needing something. Yes. To deal with the awkwardness. And that spurs a ton of anxiousness.

Oh, yeah. But I mean, just to add what you said, there is going to, I mean, my goodness, going to Hollywood, you know, parties or events for premieres or charity events or whatever it might be. Oh my gosh. Especially the early days to had to have a drink, had to have something in my hand, had to like get that little bit of a. A buzz or something like that so that way I could communicate and talk. Otherwise it was like, this is incredibly awkward.

Yeah, it's a really dangerous slide path. Keep staying here. Because at the young age I do want to understand how you work through this because the way you work through that likely is how you work through hard times now.

Sure.

And I want to see if there's something there for you. So is there one or two really difficult or life shifting experiences that you had when you were younger that we can pull to the surface to open up and examine?

I mean, to be honest with you, one is a feeling of being unsafe at quite a young Age my neighbors were. Where I grew up, bullying is not even a real word. Tormented my family in so many ways. I mean, I was.

Wait, the whole family?

Yeah. Not just me. Like, they would do things. My sisters as well, you know, for example, rip, you know, earrings out of their ears. Even to this day, my sister has two, like, you know, split earlobes, jump in front of cars, do just crazy things. They tied me up by my ankles, hung me up in a tree upside down, left me there for a while and then like would spit on me and then put like a gun to my head. It's just let me feel like how it feels, the weight of it, the coldness of the metal. Hogtie me. Put me in a field, you know, leave me there for a while. So there was this like terror. And I was a young boy and I had night terrors.

How old were we again?

I was before 8 years old. That was before, before 8 years old. And the reason why I know before 8 years old is because I grew up Mormon. And you get baptized when you're 8 years old. And I just remember being excited to be baptized because I was excited to wash away all these things that happened to me as a young, as a young boy. So there was, there was. And I had night terrors. You know, I was terrified at night. I. I would want to go to my like friend's house and sleep over or something like that. And then the second that it would get dark, I would be like, I need to go back home. I was, I was scared kid. Which is ironic because then at 12 years old, I ended up moving from Utah all the way to London by myself. Moved in with my coaches. So from being this sort of terrified, scared little kid who couldn't stay over at the neighbors across the street at 12 years old, I ended up moving across the world, which is, this is crazy.

So two, two parts. I, I wanted to understand that gap. I didn't understand how you went from Utah to London. Yeah. And kind of almost started your adult Life at age 12. It feels like, like your professional life. Pin that for a moment. How much I just want to honor what you went through is heavy. That is life changing type of experience for people. I don't feel in this moment a response to that early trauma. I don't feel it.

Sure.

But I am curious how much of that, as you were sharing it and talking about it, how much of that are you still carrying? Like how heavy is.

You know, it's interesting you mentioned that too, because I remember I was talking about This. I was in therapy and. And I was talking about this exact thing, and I was talking about, like, just like this. And they're like, hold on, dude. I was like, let's talk about what. That. That was big time.

Yeah.

That's not just like. That's. That's serious stuff. And of course, I'm kind of like, oh, you know, they must be, like, going through stuff themselves. And I always sort of like, well, one, they must be going through something in order to do that. Like, power over others is weakness in disguise. Right. And so they must be. I'm trying to have empathy for them.

As an adult or as a kid.

As an adult. As an adult. And, like. And he's like. They're like, hey, that's admirable. I appreciate that. But also, it's okay to be, like, really mad about that and on behalf of that young boy, to really feel that on for him.

Yeah.

And I was like, I don't know. Anger isn't really my. My thing. Like, I. I find it really weak, and I just don't. That's not, like, my thing. And there's that good expression that's like, whatever. You resist, persist. And boy, have I been resisting, like, anger for a long time. Because I just. Whenever I see people get angry, I'm like, I don't like that. That's weak. I just don't. They don't like that emotion.

They've lost control.

They've lost control. They're not in it.

They don't have a better option.

There's a moment in my life as an adult where I. I kind of went. I was experiencing some. Some anger, and I didn't quite understand where it was coming from. I didn't understand, like, why am I getting frustrated? Why am I getting, you know, what do I have this, like, this thing in me? And I would hate that about myself. And then once I sort of had a moment where I just consciously and purposefully got angry for that young boy, for him.

Did you have a nickname?

No. Well, I mean, my dance used to call me Heavy D because I was so small.

Heavy D was the.

Heavy D was my nickname because I was so small. But it was. It was liberating. It was really liberating because when I feel like I was honoring him, me, but I was also experiencing the full spectrum of emotion because I kind of like, as if it was a pendulum, I kind of. This side of it, like anger or negative emotions or whatever it might be. I was only allowing it to swing this far, but that only Allows me to swing this far, too, and enjoy and happiness. So I'm kind of living in this, like, kind of everything's okay instead of, like, the full. I'm experiencing, like, full, you know, anger. I'm not living there. I'm not staying there, but I'm feeling it. And then I'm. I can swing back over here. The full spectrum, the full swing and pendulum of emotion. And it was really amazing and actually fun little story. Actually, this is a fun one. Jennifer Gray, one of my partners in Dancing with the Stars, she absolutely blindsided me. She goes, hey, we're going to this chiropractor tonight. And I was like, okay, cool. I love chiropractic work, and I love all that stuff. So we go to this house. I'm like, this is a house, okay? That's normal. We start going by the side of the alleyway, and it's, like, dark. And I'm like, okay, this is getting weird. We. We go into this, like, shed, and this guy in there is Australian guy with this white beard. He's like, good night. How you doing? Sit down. And I was like, okay. And then she goes, all right, I'm gonna leave you guys to it. And I'm like, what leaves me there with this guy? We start talking, and I kind of start sharing certain things, you know, like, I'm sharing with you now. And then he just kind of looked at me and he said, you can go pick him up now. He's like, you can go pick him up. It's time. You've done a really great job. You moved away. You needed to go achieve. You needed to go do what you needed to do. But you're there. You've done it. He's ready for you. He's waiting for you. And even now, I get, like, well, up thinking about it, and I just. The idea of going back and actually, like, picking back up and like, hey, let's go. You know, I got you, bud. Everything's okay now. You know, it was a really powerful moment, and I'm just. I'm thankful for that, you know, and it's. It's hard because I moved, you know, 12 years old. They're like, how did you move to England?

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Yeah.

Are you trying to manage the emotion or are you letting it flow? How are you working in this moment?

I think I feel it. I think I feel the emotion, and I feel the connection with that younger self in a way that. But of course I feel myself feeling it. And then I go, oh, you know, and I don't turn it off, but I change the focus a little bit into, like, right now. In this moment.

Yeah.

When I think about myself and it's just me, I don't feel the emotion. When I actually separate it and I think of it as like, this younger boy, how scared he was, like this guy. That's where I feel the emotion. I really feel connected. More so than if I'm talking about myself. Oh, yeah. I went through this when I was a young kid, and this is what happened to me. But when I go this young boy, then I really feel it, and I feel like, a sense of, like, wanting to comfort and to, you know, protect and to love.

Those are two different. Three different words. Comfort, protect, and love. And is it all of those, or is it one more than the other? Because you didn't say, I feel like I need to defend. You said protect. Interesting difference. You didn't say, I need to go. Let me be provocative. I need to go. Anyone that, like, even thinks about, you know, doing that kind of stuff to kid, like, you're purposely. You've got that guardian thing. But so is it. Is it more love? The young Derek? Is it more protect? Is it more care?

I think comfort.

Comfort.

I think comfort. Because protect feels like I can do something, and I. And that I can't. Essentially, there's nothing I can do because it happened. You know, things happened. But to comfort and to reassure, because I'm here in the future, and I'm like, it's going to be okay.

Is that what you say?

Yeah, I think as simple as that, honestly. Yeah.

So, one, thank you for not what you shared, but how you shared it. I'm really excited to understand how this shows up in your adult love life. Okay. And how this shows up in your relationship with yourself, and how this shows up in how you create. Right. So those are kind of the three really important pillars, probably in your life. Your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your craft, how you do what you do, and your relationship in your love life with your wife and others. So if there was a springboard here, which one do you see the way that you've had this early care and. And for this young part of you, how has it showed up? Which one is more interesting? Love life, Relationship with yourself as an adult, or how you create?

Well, I think honestly, the relationship with myself affects everything else. You know, it affects the relationship with my, you know, my wife or my. My family or my loved ones or just people, friends. And. And it also affects my. My career because there's definitely, when I look back and, like, at a time, you know, it's interesting, you know, on Dancing the Stars, you know, people will kind of look at me like, oh, he's like, you know, golden boy of, you know, just, you know, out there doing his thing. But there was definitely a lot. Few seasons on there, for sure, more than I can count, honestly. That it was really, really hard. Really hard and not hard because, you know, life was hard as far as, like, I was like, life was good, you know, but I wasn't really liking who I was. I wasn't liking the person I was. I wasn't congruent with the person that I, I believe I could be. I was really under performing as a, as a person. And part of that was a lot of that was I hadn't addressed a lot of things. There you go.

Like, if you don't get to the relationship with.

Yeah.

The traumas and the things that like you're protecting or holding back, but you're not. I like to use like imagery and storytelling and I think about. Okay, so all of the science and theory of psychology is running underneath the surface. And I'm gonna, for me. And then I'm gonna just tell you how I think about it, which is like, I gotta know my dragon. Yeah. This dragon inside of me, I need to know it. And if I don't and I lock it away, it, it just decays. And I think that's what many of us do. We've got this part of us that feels uncontrollably volatile and like wild, which is also amazing.

Sure.

And we say, no, no, no, no, we can't get near that. It's too much. Go down in this dungeon, this cave. I'm going to put a lock on it because there's too much there. And now the dragon's in the, in this little dungeon kind of caved area for whatever amount of time. And then we need it all of a sudden one day to like the strength of the dragon to come out. But it does. No understanding, no relationship with us. It's fire breathing everywhere, tail whipping. And it were. We're out of control with say, anger maybe.

Sure.

But to have a relationship you need to go like, really examine the parts of yourself that are down in, in the dark.

Yeah.

And you did that. And there's a liberation, you know, that, that, that comes from it.

And by the way, when I say liberation, to not sugarcoat that, it certainly isn't. Oh, you know, it, it, it gets worse. It's. It, it gets worse to. When you experience all that stuff. Right. When you allow it to come to the surface, when you allow it, to feel it fully, when you allow all these things to come out because you've essentially been like, you know, you've been.

Been closing it down, mentalizing, keeping it in a box. Yeah, it's good.

And things are coming out sideways and I oh, man, it sucks. Oh, boy, does it suck so hard.

It's like a dry rag in a dusty attic. Oh, it just kicks it all up.

Yep. Oh, it's just everywhere. And you're like, oh, my gosh, what is happening? But then when you move through it, when you really actually, like, it sounds so cliche now these days, but when you do the work, you know, it. It's incredible. It really is. And the best part about that as well is that when you're able to work, going back to what you said about the self part, when you're actually to, like, work on yourself and really understand and get curious about it, then that's where the. It becomes fun because then you're able to, like, with you, then you're like, let me help somebody else. Let me, like, let me hear your story. Let me see if I can help relate to that in some way. And. And then so in career wise, especially for what I do in dancing, where it's like, you're working with people, especially on Dancing with the Stars, where it's terrifying, like, oh, my God, you're putting them on a stage in front of millions of people doing something they're not comfortable doing. They're most likely gonna mess up or fail or all these fears that they're afraid of. This is where, like, being a coach and being somebody that's there to give them that security and that to relate to them and to understand them is so important.

What's the word you used? It's escaping. It's not care. For younger Derek, what was the word you use?

It was comfort.

Yeah. So that. That's interesting because that's probably. You needed it. That's the kind of thing in you. And you're probably doing it extraordinarily well for your partners that are terrified.

Right.

Like, think about all of that. Compassion.

Sure.

That you have and understand.

Yeah.

You know, for younger Derek. And now expressing that. What a gift to give to the scared whoever that, you know, like.

Yeah.

Okay, so go to the London bit.

Sure.

So you say 12 years old. I'm kind of done with this, you know, Utah life and with my family. And did you have a mom and dad intact?

Yeah, mom and dad. No, they were actually. It was interesting. So they were going through a divorce. Right. In that time. So that divorce kind of, in a way left an opening to allow me.

To go to England, as one would say.

Yeah.

No, well, wait, wait, wait, wait. I didn't know what was happening at 12. And you're like, I'm going To London?

No. Well, I mean, what happened was, you know, the coaches came to my studio in Utah. They're named Corking Shirley Ballas, and they were, like, world champions. Amazing. And how did.

Wait, so how did. How did they find this little shop in Utah?

That's a good question. I'm not exactly sure. I think it was just a studio that was starting to, like byu, Brigham Young University. They have a ballroom dance program. They've had it for many, many years.

So this is a little bit of a circuit. And somehow you. They met. They saw you at 12.

Yeah, I was in their class, and they always described me as being sort of like the eager beaver. I was like, you know, up front, asking the questions and answering the questions, and I was in the adult class. Like, I just. I wanted to, like.

Oh, so you had a spark at a young age?

Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, I was. I was. Once. I was hooked on it. I wanted to become great at it. And. And I also knew that when they came, I felt like there was a shift, that I was getting some different type of information I've never got before.

They spoke the language.

They were. It was just like, whoa. And after even just like, a few hours of working with them, I just felt, like, instantly better.

So for folks that don't know, I mean, this is like, I don't know, the Michael Jordan coming into town. Absolutely right. And so for ballroom, be specific. And so would you say that this is a little provocative, but are they masters of craft or are they extraordinarily high performers?

I would honestly. I would honestly say masters of craft because. And for different reasons, too, their dynamic is very interesting. Their story is a whole. That's a whole other episode, trust me. Shirley Ballas was a world champion at age 19 years old. She's extraordinary even to this day. She's in her mid-60s, and she can hang, she can dance, so she's got foundation. She's phenomenal. Yeah, she's phenomenal. She's always had that, like, understanding, but also the ability to actually show it and to dance it and to demonstrate it, which a lot of teachers aren't able to do.

Those three parts. And understanding ability and then expression. Yes, okay.

All of those things she can do because oftentimes teachers have a lot of wisdom, they have a lot of knowledge, but they can't necessarily demonstrate. She had the ability to demonstrate, to show you as well. His journey was extraordinary because when they met, he was a beginner, and she was a world champion, and he was a beginner. So when they Got together. It was this. He. He experienced the long road to get to where he needs to get, you know, and people saying that he wasn't good and that, what is she doing dancing with this beginner when you're a world champion? And it was this crazy dynamic.

Oh, as a partner.

Even as a partner. And so it took her 12 years to go back to being first again because she changed a partner because they fell in love and they became dance partners.

Oh. So a first principle for her was to do it with the people that you love over the people that will help you win.

So their dynamic as a. As champions and as a couple were. It was. He's from Texas, she's English. Like, it was just this, like, exotic. Like, in Utah, you know, like, whoa. Like, this is insane. And. And, you know, long story short, they were like. They just saw potential in me. They had a young son, Mark Ballas, and he was the only child, and they were just kind of like, why don't you come live with us for a couple months and we'll train you. We see a lot of potential in you. And you're friends with Mark. And at that time, my parents were. Home was just a little bit, like, uncertain. There was no foundation there. Things a bit floaty, and I didn't know what was going on. And so my parents were gracious enough. And I'm saying that. I really mean that. The grace that they had to allow me as a young boy to move away, to have an amazing experience, I mean, it really changed my life. It really did. And the reason why I say grace, too, is as an adult, I am. So I look at my mom and I. The mornings that she would wake up crying, missing us.

You just changed as you went into.

This part of the story, I think, because I didn't think of it when I was a young kid, I. I was like, I'm doing my thing. I'm in England. I'm training. I'm becoming the best. They're saying, come home. It's time to come home now. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm, like, living my life, and I'm winning competitions. I'm going for the world championship in two years. I'm on this. I can't come home. You know? And they were like, okay. You know? But as an adult, learning more and be more curious about what they were emotionally experiencing was devastating. It was really devastating. You know, they had sacrificed a lot.

That is a lot.

Sacrificed a lot.

There's a risk in there, too. Like, how did they know you were safe.

Well, I mean, we would check in, of course, you know, and, And. And communicate and. And talk and. And, of course. But. And then we see the results. They would see, like, okay, they're. They're doing what they're meant to do, that they're. They're thriving over there, but that's even seeing our success and seeing us thrive and doing what we're doing. They're missing out on being part of it. Yeah. And parents to us, you know, and, And. And at that time, you don't see that. Right. You just think about yourself. You're just like, oh, I'm doing what I need to do, you know, but. And as an adult, you're like, wow, thank you.

So you mentioned twice when. It's beautiful, like, the acknowledgment of your mom's sacrifice. Yeah, it was. I think it was more your mom than your dad is what I felt in here. But yeah. Yeah, you mentioned twice. Like this. This is the part of the story where you had a vision and you're. You're attacking it. You are lining up.

Yeah.

Your thoughts, your words, your actions. I think those are the most powerful people that can line up their thoughts, words, and actions. Even in rugged, scary, whatever environments. They have the mental skills and the physical and technical skills to do that. And then. But earlier in our conversation, you said, no, I was at my lowest point when I had an idea of who I wanted to be and I couldn't be it. So do you work from, like, a vision, if you will, of who you want to become, or is it more like a clarity of who I am at my best and. And I just. It's already in me. Is it something out there to go get version X, or is it something inside of you to open up and express?

It's definitely the latter.

It's already inside you.

Yeah. Everything you need is within you right now. You know, essentially, it's a first principle.

That I live by, really, which is everything you need is already within you. Yes, that's. So it's born out of Carl Rogers.

Right.

Rogerian therapy, which is like an unconditional positive regard for you. It's already in you.

It's all. It's all there. It's already there. And. Which is ironic because I think this feeling of always needing to achieve something to be successful, to win. I equated all that with love. It was like, in order for me to feel love or to feel worthy of love, I had to succeed. I had to achieve. I had to win. Something. And only then would I be good enough to receive love or people would, like, like me or love me.

Did you know it at the time or is this now looking back, like, whoa, I was screwed up.

Oh, no, this is. This is looking back for sure.

Because time. You didn't know it.

No, no, no, no. And not for a long time, because I won the World championship. I was, you know, the youth champion. I won all these competitions and then I went into Dancing with the Stars. Now I'm in a whole other type of competition. Right. I won that show more than anybody had won it three times at that time. I've exceeded.

How old are you?

I don't know, 20, like 6 or something like that.

World Champion, I think is like 18, 19. So just like your mentor cracked it at like a really young age. So 12 to 18 was kind of. You were. You were on it.

Oh, it was relentless.

Yeah. And you were good.

Yeah. The structure there was. That's what. That's the key word there. It was structure.

Like.

I mean, it was like we had an absolute.

How many hours?

Insane regimen. I mean, typical day is, you know, wake up at 7, get the 756 train, Thames link across the Thames, change, get the Tube, go to Barbican, walk 20 minutes, get to school. So it took about an hour 15 to get to school. And then you're in School from 9:00am till 6:00 clock at night.

Normal school or dance school.

It's like a theater arts school.

Okay.

So it was academics in the morning and then vocation in the afternoon. And then that finishes. Then you do the hour 15 back home, train two different trains, 8, 30, get home, eat something really fast and then go straight to dance and go train to be a Latin ballroom competitive dancer.

Two hours, two and a half hours.

Two and a half hours. So we go to like 11 o' clock at night, then we do it all over again. That's the weekdays. Then Saturday comes and Saturday is. Lessons start at 10am you have lessons all day, private lessons to like, you know, work on the craft of Latin and ballroom dancing. And then you practice at night until 11 o' clock at night. And then Sunday is a competition and Sunday is. And then what? I mean, the competition, it's like it could be a local competition, it could be a national competition, but we're driving to Manchester, Liverpool, Bournemouth, Brighton, we're flying to France, we're going somewhere to compete. So that was like for years, that regimen, but that also assured success. Each week there was improvement. I felt there was an improvement every time we go to a competition. So, yes, that was relentless. Relentless.

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Interestingly enough, I was not a great competitor. I was a great trainer. I loved training, I loved practice, I loved, like, I loved it. And then when it came to the competition, ugh, I hated it. I just fell apart. But as a young competitor, I was so. I was such a perfectionist that what would happen is when we're dancing and dancing is such a feeling thing. It's such a feeling thing where, like, it doesn't feel good if the connection isn't right, if I don't land on my foot the right way, if there's not a full extension or something happens and you have a partner there too, right? So now there's. You're not just relying on yourself. It's like this mutual experience. For me, if it didn't feel good, it just nails on a chalkboard. Just like the most excruciating feeling that would overcome me and I couldn't get myself out of it. And so in a competition, in a.

Practice, would it be frustration or would it be negative self talk? Or is it like an.

It would all the things.

It would be frustration, super busy up in your head, just crazy. No connection to your body, just crazy.

I.

How do you help people now deal with that?

I mean, it's that, you know, it's the fear that we all have Right. We all have that fear of not being good enough. And that was just heightened in a, in a situation where you're being judged. Right. Because you think like, oh, I'm not good enough and they're not going to like me.

Uniquely for you. Cuz earlier you described that your entire kind of identity, your worth to be loved even was, was, was now at stake.

Yes.

So when you walked on and they called your number and you did your thing to the middle of the floor and the lights were da, da, da, and eyes were on you, it wasn't just like, is he a good dancer? Like, look at the lines. It was like my entire, you don't understand. My entire identity is at risk. And if it's not perfect, if I'm not in the pocket, then. And I'm brutal to myself. I'm disconnected and, and I can't have that. So I better, I better work my ass off in the gym.

Yeah.

And be like, better than I was yesterday or anyone ever did it.

The fear of, the fear of going out there and not being good was like, far outweighed the joy of winning.

Would you. Yeah. I mean, would you look your world best? You won this show three in a row. You have this big, big body of work of working with World's best as well. I can keep going on and on about like, your body of work. Would you change the torment that you had? I guess we could go twice, but I'm thinking about this internal torment to get better. Would you? Is there a better way or is that the way?

No, no, no, there's definitely a better way. For sure. I think I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, I suppose. And again, I'm not sitting here, you know, playing the violin saying like, oh, what was me. It was so difficult because I think that again, it was part of my journey and I'm thankful for it and I'm thankful for. There's things about that that I wouldn't change because it gave me a drive. It gave me this like, ambition. It gave me this, you know, but.

That'S, that's the question. Like if. Okay, let's say you're coaching a young kid.

Yeah.

Are you coaching through inspiration or desperation? Because you were. You had the desperation.

Sure.

Right. And we. This is, this is what's happening in the field right now of. Let's call it high performance or mastery is. Think about old school, which is what you're capturing.

Sure.

High performance begins where wellness ends. We swallowed that pill, all of us did, at some point. And we don't have to swallow that anymore. We know that wellness and high performance, this commitment to being your very best, this masterful way of going through life is possible, but not without agitation. Sure, not without resistance is the word used. There's still. It's unsettling to get to your edge where the unlock happens, but it doesn't mean that you've got to yourself and it doesn't mean that you've got to be terrible to yourself and rude to others and, you know, sacrifice everything for the one thing that might not ever actually happen.

And then. And that was really the realization for me was I remember being in my apartment and I was looking up and I was. I think I had won like, like an Emmy. And there's at that time, there's three mill royal trophies.

And think about how many Emmys now.

Four.

I mean, congrats.

Thank you. And. But I remember, like, looking at this hardware and I was like. And I remember being really in a bad place, just really in a dark spot. And I'm like, what in the heck is going on, man? Like, what? Come on, dude. You're like, you're living the dream. Like, you're top of the game. Like, what is going on here? Because my whole life, like I talked about it was like, success, equal love. It was like, you know, equal love. But all sudden, here I am, and I don't feel love. I don't feel love for myself, and there. Therefore, I don't feel it from anybody else, honestly. And people who say, wow, you're great, and all these things, but what I realized in that moment was that the fulfillment aspect of it was gone. And it's. It's about the. Who I was as a person wasn't congruent with what I want, who I wanted to become and who I wanted to be. And once I started diving into that and really, like, waking up and being like, I like this person, not because of what I've achieved, not because of the awards, not because of this stuff. Just. Just because of me. Just me just by myself, like, in a field empty with nothing. Once I kind of started to be like, I like that person, then it was like. Honestly, it was. There was like this, like rocket fuel, essentially. And I'm. The opportunities, the. The things that happened from that. I think I won, you know, two seasons after that, back to back. And then I, you know, did this and I. But I wasn't doing it to win. I wasn't doing it for. I was. Had a different intention. I had a different Reason, a different purpose for doing things. It wasn't about winning. It wasn't about proving myself. It wasn't about being the best. It wasn't about all this stuff. It was a different intention, different fuel, which was like, I'm gonna. I like. I like this person, and I'm gonna do this for a different reason, for an enjoyment of it versus the. To try to prove something. And do you know your purpose?

Are you clear about your life purpose?

Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think. I mean, let's be real. There's some days where I'm like, what am I doing? What is the purpose of this all? But I think for the most part, where I feel the most, like, aligned and I feel the most fulfilled is what I'm genuinely serving. And I mean that. Even just the other day, I flew out and I taught at a dance studio, and there's these little kids in there, and one of them came up and gave me a hug at the end of the class, and they looked up at me and no joke. I just, like, again, I get emotional again because I think about that little boy and I'm like, wow. I'm able to be in a position now where I'm able to now help this person's dreams. I'm able to guide this person and to give this person an opportunity. And I'm so unbelievably thankful to be in that position where I'm able to help, where I'm able to serve. And even on tours when I'm performing, man, I would get burned out. I would get so tired. I would get exhausted. And, you know, I'm doing Dance With Stars at the same time as I'm doing the shows, but it would get exhausting because I was doing it for me. But once I want to go out there and I'm like, I'm here to, like, I'm here to freaking serve this audience. I'm here to give them something I want to give. Like, it just. It gave me this, like, endless well of energy that I can wake up every day, and even if I'm a little tired, the second I see their faces, it's just like. I just. It's amazing. It's amazing. But it's.

Again, it's one of the great insights. It's not about being loved. It's having people to love.

Yeah. Yeah.

And if you do get the order of that wrong the other way, it's about being loved, not having people to love it quickly. You see just how of an A hungry ghost that is like a. You can never feed, you know, or satiate that. That. That thing. But if you have someone to love.

Yeah.

And it doesn't need to. That doesn't mean, like a wife or a partner. That. That's just. You can love other. Mother Teresa was never married.

Yeah.

Pretty epic woman. So. Okay, so shifting slightly here.

Yeah.

This is awesome. What. What is your craft?

What is my craft? I don't know, because I wouldn't. I wouldn't just specify and go into dance.

I think that's right for you.

I wouldn't just go into. I feel like it's obviously created. I have it in my little bio thing, but created to create. I love creation. And by the way, that can mean doing yard work. I love. I love gardening, because I love to create. I love to nurture. I love seeing transformation. I love that. That gives me, like. That just gets me amped when I see something transform or somebody transform. You know, if I'm teaching them dance, do you see them not be able to do something? And then all of a sudden they can do something? Like that little. That transition is like. It's so exciting.

Okay, this is cool because, like, your vehicle is through dance, correct? It's the laboratory.

Yes.

You know, it's like. But it sounds like your purpose is to serve, to kind of, you know, pour into other people, and then your craft is to help unlock something in others. It could be the audience that's, like, inspired or feeling something, or like they're crying just watching a beautiful piece. Or it's your partner that you're coaching and helping them do something that you have this idea of is possible, but with just kind of massaging and getting into the right whatever to unlock it. So you and I have some mutual friends, which is always fun. So I called them to ask for some questions.

Oh, no. Okay.

Okay. Who is it? Okay, so the first one is Misty Copeland.

Oh, Misty. I love Misty.

Yeah. So Misty recognizes one of the greats in ballet on pointe. Yes, she is, and she's amazing. And so she has a question for you about creating. So it's fun that you went the creative way. Okay, so full question or text back to me. Was. He actually created a piece on me some years ago. I believe it was his first time choreographing for ballerina and specifically in pointe shoes. So I'd love to know. This is Misty speaking in his creative process, is he shaping the work around who's in front of him and their capabilities, or is he more about challenging the dancer to step into his vision. Before you answer this question has been a theme throughout everything we've talked about. Your vision of what could be and then your creative process to help unlock something in the other. So, again, let me question is right on point for this. No pun intended there. Is he shaping the work around who's in front of him and their capabilities, or is it more about challenging the dancer to step into his vision?

It depends. It depends, honestly, who I'm working with. Meaning, for instance. Well, first of all, Misty Copeland. I mean, working with her was like. Working with. It was just like having just a bouquet of flowers. Just like. You're like, oh, my gosh, it's endless what I could do with her, right. Because I'm just like, do your leg. Oh, yeah, yeah, do that. That's great. Oh, yeah, do that. And. Oh, you. You didn't do two. Do four. Great. Fantastic. Like, it was so wonderful to work with her because her facility was so broad. And her. She also has that discipline, you know, that discipline where she's like. If I say, try something, she goes, okay. Like, she's ready to go. There's no sort of, like, question. She's gonna. She's gonna push me as a choreographer. You know what I'm saying?

The best pull us.

Yes. And that's where I'm like. I'm like, oh, you can do more than I'm saying do this, but you can do more than that, or you can go further with that.

So you're calibrating against what the capability is. But do you have a vision of what you'd like this bouquet to look like?

Yes, there's always a vision there. For me, it's a feeling, though. It's a feeling. There is vision there, without a doubt, where I'm like. I can kind of see it, but my main test is this. In me, it's the feeling I get when I see something, and I just know that's not right. It's like a. It's like a little. It settles. It opens. It's something here where, when I watch it, it's a process. Because I might have, like, an initial vision of what I want musically. The dynamics, the costumes, the colors, the lighting, all that. Yes. I need that sort of vision as I had sort of a director, a director's mind. Then as a choreographer, it's feeling. It's like, try this. No, that's not right. Do this, do this. Move that way.

But how do you get the feeling when you're seeing Misty kind of do her thing? Like, what. How Does. How does her shape give you a feeling?

I don't know. It's just. It's something. It's hard to pinpoint when I'm in the process of doing something or creating. But to go back to what she. Her question real fast was, do I. Do I try to push the dancer into my vision or do I create with the person in front of me? It's that one. To be honest with you.

It's crate. It's co create.

I co create, and I've always been like that. Even on Dancing with the Stars, a lot of dancers will come in with routines pre choreographed, and they'll come and teach it. I got this routine. Here we go. I'm gonna show you the routine. I never came in prepared.

I heard that from our producer who also worked on your show.

I never came in prepared. Which, by the way, was miserable.

For whom?

For me and for them, I'm sure, because it was frustrating because I would constantly change things and they're like, well, which one is it there. I felt like having that ability to sort of create on the spot and create with the person in front of me, to create where they were, where they were at their level, and then. Then to exceed it as well. But I felt like it was. I was able to get the best out of them.

Do you err more on support or challenge?

What do you mean by the support?

Like, meaning, okay, I'm gonna try something. Let's try something together. I think you can do this. And I just wanna check it out and like, let's feel our way through this a little bit. Or is it like, wait, hold on. You know, I know you've got more extension in your hip.

Right?

Right. Like, come on, like, pull that out a little further.

I'll say this depending on who I'm working with, because I think that.

What did you do with Misty?

With Misty? Oh, anything. I was like, oh, yeah, Add another one of those turns in there for sure. Do that. Oh, my gosh. Do this.

Like, so more on the support, like the collaboration versus, like, Misty, there's more in you. Like, take it a little further.

She. She did not. She certainly is a person that doesn't need that. If I say, if I were to say, hey, try this, do this, she would do it. Honestly, that would only come from her being like, I don't really want to do that, or I don't. It doesn't feel good. That never. That never happened. She was like, okay, let's do this, let's go. Versus, like, if somebody were Saying if somebody says, I can't do that, and I'm like, no, you can do that. I know you can do that. And then. But then it's up to me to get them to do that by showing the steps and not just showing them, but to get them to believe they can do it and to show them the process.

How do you do that? How do you help somebody believe that they can. Can.

One is just to know who they are, right? What's their background? What do they feel comfortable in, you know, in. In their life? What's something that feels like they. They can understand? And I talk in those terms. So, for instance, like, if I'm talking to, you know, an actor, right? Or I'm working with an actor on Dancing the Stars, like, I can't do that. I'm like, okay, all right, well, hold on now. But if you could, how would you do it? You know what I mean? Like. Like, what do you mean? But I would. I would use sort of an anecdote or something that they can relate to. And you're a surfer, right? So if I'm talking to you and we're doing a dance, I'm like, okay, well, listen, it's like when you. You push off the surfboard, you have to press off equal balance. Otherwise, if you do one side too much, you're gonna flip over the side, right? And you go, oh, yeah, I understand that. Okay. You utilize. When you push off that what muscles are being activated. It's like on my back, my lats, you know, my. My. My chest. Okay, cool. So when we do this move, I need you to, like, activate those same muscle groups with. When you push off, all of a sudden you're like, oh, dance is crazy. But then you're like, oh, no, no, no. By the way, surfing is. Is an incredible form of movement and balance and, you know, adjusting and flowing and all these things. So utilizing.

You'll see, Derek.

Yeah, yeah. But it is. I mean, it's super athletic and, like, the core engagement and all these different things. Working with Amy Purdy, you know, she was a Paralympian. She lost her legs at 19. Below the knee. Both legs.

Both double amputee.

And working with her, I could communicate to her in snowboarding terms. And then. But then. But dance. And then she would be like, oh, makes perfect sense.

Yes. You're translating from who they are, what they know into what you want to feel or see. Yeah, that's awesome.

Because dance is. That's the thing. Dance is a word. But. But movement. We all move we are all moving. You walking into this room, you know, getting into your car, whatever it is we are moving. And dancing is just a little bit organized movement. That's it. We get afraid by the word. And so my goal is to like, not make you afraid of it, but to sort of embrace. Embrace movement.

This episode is brought to you by Finding youg Best, our very own signature mindset course here at Finding Mastery. Hey, everyone, it's Caroline Burkle. I'm a mindset coach, an Olympic medalist, and someone who spent a lot of time figuring out what it really means to feel like my best self and not just look like it on paper. So here's what I know. Performance isn't just about discipline and drive. It's about tuning in. It's about regulating your nervous system. It's not about just pushing through. It's about building a relationship with your inner voice and learning how to trust it when things get loud. So that's why I love this course. Finding your Best brings together the Exact Mindset Tools Dr. Gervais and I use with elite athletes, creatives leaders to help you build resilience, clarity and presence under pressure. When I retired from professional swimming, it took me some time to know myself beyond my identity as an athlete. And it's tools like the Finding your best course that have equipped me with ways to regularly come back to myself when I need to reignite that strength and build resilience within. So if you're feeling stuck, disconnected, or just ready to reconnect with yourself, the time is here and now and we're halfway to 2026 and summer is upon us. So let's invest in ourselves. So if you're feeling stuck, disconnected, or just ready to reconnect with yourself, we have a great solution for you. I can't believe it, but we're already halfway through 2025, almost 2026, and summer is upon us. So let's invest in ourselves. When you use the code Summer75, you can get $75 off at findingmastery.com course. Again, that's code Summer75 Summer75@findingmastery.com course for $75 off.

I want to take a moment to tell you about a podcast I think you're really going to enjoy. It's called Think fast, Talk smart. It's hosted by bestselling author and Stanford lecturer Matt Abrahams. And it's all about helping you become a more effective communicator. Each Tuesday, Matt sits down with world class experts to discuss how to hone and Develop your communication skills. Skills like mastering small talk, keeping your nerves in check while speaking to large groups, and science based strategies to help boost your confidence across all types of interactions. Think fast. Talk Smart is a really cool podcast that teaches us how to communicate better. Take a listen every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. How about somebody like Nicole Scherzinger?

Nicole Scherzinger. Oh my goodness. By like Tony Award winner.

Yeah, she's a force. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so how do you work with somebody who's already pretty, I mean, not misty? There's probably. She's in a category alone. Right. But somebody that really has a command, can move, can sing, has. Comes from a place. I don't know her, but she feels very strong in the way she presents. How would you coach?

Well, I think the first and foremost, I'll say this, trust is really important when you're a coach in that position. And when I joined the show, my first two partners did not want to be with me. They were like, who is a scrawny little boy who I came on the show to dance with these like strong, sexy guys. And here I am like this like 90 pound, like, hi, guys, I'm going to teach you how to do a cha cha to like, this sucks. Dang it. But I actually appreciated knowing that because I knew, like, okay, I have to earn this.

I have to earn my world championship. Does not hang.

You know, they don't care.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, they don't care.

Right.

So even with Nicole, who again, I remember like looking at her on billboards when I was living in England, being like, oh my gosh, she's like this like, goddess and incredible. And I go into a room and all of a sudden I have to, I have to teach her how to dance and teach her how to do something. Like, she's the superstar. So it's important to, to be very, you know, certain of myself as a coach and being like, okay, I know what I'm doing. I have knowledge, I have the tools and I'm here to help her. So working with her, it's cool.

So it's trust.

Yes.

Establishing trust and backing yourself. So self confidence.

Yes.

Knowing how to speak to yourself about what is what, your capabilities and strengths and unique assets that you're bringing to this collab.

Yes.

And the way that you're building trust is probably by bringing your best forward and being interested in their capabilities and.

Being interested and being, being strong. We had a fun. We had a lot of fun. We had a great dynamic. We were very like, we Joked around a lot. We have this very similar sense of humor. But I was also very strong, you know what I mean, in the coaching style, because it was sort of like, if I was kind of like, hey, maybe do this. It wasn't that. It was like, do this. I need you to do this. I need to do that.

You actually have that in this conversation. You've got a tenderness, You've got an openness to explore. You're highly conscientious. You've got a vertical alignment that is. Presents with a low agreeableness. You're not going to agree. Just to agree. You might say, oh, yeah. But then you're going to say something that is actually your point of view.

Right.

Which is where your strength. How your strength is expressed. It's not where it comes from. It comes from the. The hard things that you've been through, the relationship with yourself that you've built. To be able to open the aperture and be like, here I am. And that doesn't make sense to me or that I see it this way.

Sure.

So do others see you in the same way that I just expressed, or does that feel foreign to you?

No. Well, first, thanks. Thank you. I appreciate. I take that as a compliment. Thank you. Very kind of.

Those are. Yeah, those are definitely assets.

That's very kind. I'll say this. My journey as I'm just a very curious person. I've been. Always been curious. Even when I was a young kid, my mom would put me in art lessons, karate lessons, swimming lessons, drum lessons, guitar, dance. I was always learning something. And so I think that, that. That curiosity has stayed with me. So even when I. Even when I behave certain ways, when I'm. When I'm in the dance studio and I'm. I've lost my patience and I'm not being kind. You know, in my earlier seasons of Dancing with the Stars, I look at those and I'm. And I. And I kind of like wince a little bit because there's moments where I'm like, wow, I was a scared little boy. Try in on this big stage, trying to coach when I really had no business in that moment.

So you know what an imposter syndrome feels like.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, me too.

Oh, my God.

Welcome. I mean, like, if you're going to try to do something, you're going to get over your skis and be a little bit faster on the hill than. Than you know you're capable of, like. Yeah. So thank you.

Oh, no. The amount of times I'm just like, oh, my Gosh, if they find out that I'm actually not this.

Like, yeah, I know how to dance, but I don't know how to coach. Yeah.

People will call me a choreographer. I'm like, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. I'm just. What? I'm like, it took me years to sort of to be like, okay, I do have good instincts.

Can you. Yeah, you're a great choreographer. I mean, can you count? Do you know the numbers? 1, 2, 3, 4. Because you guys all started. 5, 6, 7, 8. You guys do know. 1, 2, 3, 4.

We do. We do. We know. We also know 1e and a 2e and a 3 and a 4.

I've heard. You don't count. I heard you do sounds.

I do. I do. I.

Can I hear it?

I don't know. It's like. It's because sometimes I think when you make sounds, it helps identify the move because it's like a Z. So you know that the move is like a sustained movement. Or if it's a ga. Ga, then you know, that's like a. It's a. It's an impact movement. Right. So I'll actually do that when I'm coaching somebody. I'll say, I need you to sing this with me. And so they would do it as a dance. So. And what happens, their body, when they go. When they make those sounds? Their body wants to do what they're set with. They're doing their mouth. So even on the dance floor, they're actually making those noises as well because it helps them, you know.

Oh, that's cool.

Or if I'm working with, like, an Olympian, like an Olympic athlete who has been taught, do not smile, no emotion. I'm here, and I'm trying to get them to perform. I would have them just make sounds and noises. I'd say, I want you to go, wow. And whoa. And hey, let's go. I'd have them say that every time they would hit a move, and they're like, why are you doing that? It's like, nothing. We're just making sounds. Let's go. And I'll do it with them. I'm like, yeah, Whoa. Yeah. And then when you watch on camera, they're going like. And they're getting this smile, they have this emotion, and they're having fun, and it's like emoting something. Things.

Clever.

So you're just finding little tricks.

Who are you thinking of?

Shawn Johnson.

Okay. It's funny because I called. I called Nastia, Lucan.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So this is the other person. Yeah. So before we go to Nasia, and I've got a question from Nasia, but. Yeah, what did you learn? I'm going to put you on the spot here a little bit. Like, what did you learn from Misty?

One thing I learned with Misty is it doesn't matter how good you are, how, what you've achieved, how, how far you've come when you're in that studio. Like, you're, you're there to work. You're there to work. And she was a worker and she was so gracious and respectful. And we, we're friends now. Like, we know each other. Like, hey, what's up? You know, but at that time, it's like, I'm like, hello, Discipline.

And by the way, this is switched on.

This is also right before when we created this piece for her at the Lincoln Center. I feel like I, Somebody told me about her. They're like, Misty Copeland, she's this ballerina. She's amazing. She's this and that. She's, like, making history. And I'm like, I'd love to create for her. And then I feel like it was like three months later, all of a sudden, it was Misty Copeland. Like, the Misty Copeland, you know, all the, the campaign, the billboards and the things. And it was really cool to be able to, to experience her before and also to experience her after all that and how she's remained this incredible athlete, you know, and, and just, and just humble and gracious and man, that is, man, I, I, my, the respect. I think people, if they even had a. They even understood a fraction of what it took or what it takes to get at her level as a ballerina, the hours, the. Oh, my gosh, you just, you wish wouldn't go near it.

What's that intensity? It's beyond super switched on.

It's beyond. Yeah, it's incredible. And so she's. She's amazing. I love her to death. She's amazing.

That's very cool. I mean, I could feel like I'd have this conversation for a long time with you is that you have. And I think it's relatively new that some of the stuff that's gone on with you and your wife. And so when I learned about what your wife went through, I was like, can you go to, like, what that phase is like and maybe just open up what she's gone through and open that up? Because nobody gets through this life without going through hard stuff. You're either in the storm or heading to it. And there is a science around resilience and hardiness and dealing with difficult things. But I would love from a first hand experience, you know, if you could celebrate and even share, you know, what you guys have been through.

Yeah, well, I mean, going from a thousand miles an hour, being on tour for. In front of thousands of people with, you know, my beautiful wife. We just been married for three months, so we're in that like honeymoon phase. Just life is great, wonderful and Dancing with the stars judging that finished the finale and finally back out on the road and we're going to like Florida now where the weather is nice because we've been in the east coast and during the wintertime and, and to suddenly then feeling like I lost my wife because in a way I did. The night it all happened, she, you know, was having seizures on the side of the stage and not making sense and what happened. We actually hit heads. That's what caused the bleed. So then there was of course an overwhelming sense of guilt and shame, you know, like I caused this. And, and you know, even though we've hit heads many times before, things happen, we've, you know, dancers always happens. Nothing was out of the ordinary. But the, she actually, it happened at the beginning of the show, an hour and a half later, towards the end. That's when the symptoms started to kick in and she actually danced three dances, didn't skip a beat and she doesn't remember it at all. She just remembers being on stage at this one point. But I was like, honey, you danced three full numbers and then you didn't come on stage, stage and. But she has no recollection. It's, it's insane. The hospital, the doctor talking to me, just basically, basically saying that, you know, she might not survive. Like, I'm like, what? Like, and, and even if she does, it's so severe, the, the midline shift, the swelling has been so severe that this is brain damage. So she's not going to be the same person even if she does survive.

So how did, how did you, did you, could you process that?

I was still in my rhinestone shirt, man. I was literally. We were just off this, off the stage. It was crazy. They had to cut her out of her costume.

I was, you didn't know.

I was on the floor in tears. I think at first I was kind of like, kept myself together. But once I had a moment, it was two in the morning, you know, it was late by that, by that time and so the, the hospital area was empty and I was just there by myself. And, and so she was already at the hospital by that time.

Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, when the doctor came out and talked to me. Yeah, they're about to go operate. They had to open up her skull. 40. They removed 40 of her skull. And I was just. He. They were basically like, you need to go back. You need to go home and rest. You're in. You're. You're in this for a long haul, you know? And that's when I realized I was like, oh, life is never gonna be the same. And in that moment, I experienced loss one way or the other. Whether or not she passed away or she just. I've lost the person I know she's going to be a different person. So there was loss, and that was excruciating. But without going into much detail about everything that happened, fortunately, she came, she opened her eyes, and she was. She was her. And that was a victory. And all of a sudden, there's like, these, like. You're going from, like, the lowest of lows to then, like, the smallest things being the highest highs, so you could experience this insane amount of joy. Like. Like, I don't mean by joy. I mean, like, no award, no competition, no, like, achievement could compare to the moment when she said her own name and I knew that it was her. That was like, wow. Like, that's just the best feeling in the world.

And then it was like, are these tears of joy? Oh, yeah.

Just, like. Just, like, so thankful, you know? So much gratitude.

Yeah.

The moment when she stood up for the first time to go to the bathroom, like, it was like, joy. Just, like victory joy. Like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. The moment that she started laughing because her face was swelled up where she looked like the guy from Goonies, you know? And she's laughing about it, and I'm just like, that amount of joy that we experienced. That's why we always talked about, like, the biggest highs and the biggest lows, because, of course, it's a low. But, my God, did we experience these. These moments of grace and victory and joy. And then it was difficult, too, because then it's like, okay, now can she do what she did before? Can she get back to that place? And, you know, we've been on this crazy journey, but I. I've always been so impressed with her because she never really shed a tear. She did eventually, but that first couple of weeks, she never liked. She never felt sorry for herself. She never was like, oh, no. Like, why did this happen to me? And I can't believe this. And she's looking herself in the Mirror. She's missing half her skull. Like, her. Her whole head. The shape of her head is. It's like, you know, Salvador Dali painting. Like, it's like concave. And then her head shaved and her. It's not even her, you know, but she didn't. She was like, it is what it is. That's what she just kept saying that she goes, it is what it is what I'm going to do about it. Like, this is what happened. And here I am. So, for me, what I really learned from her in those moments where I was so impressed was her ability to surrender. She was just like, this is. This is what it is. I can't do anything about it. And that's just like, the only thing I can do is try to have. Do what I can do, do what I can do. And that's what. Am I going to focus on. Am I going to focus on, oh, I can't do this. Oh, I look like this? Am I going to focus on these things? Or I'm going to focus on the nurse smiling at me? Am I going to focus on watching Home Alone 45 times on repeat on the TV that they have in there? Am I going to focus on the fact that my husband's by my side and that my. There's so much more to be thankful for. And she. She didn't just, like, read the books and listen to things. She. She just was it. She just was living it. I'm the type of person where I'm like, let me go listen to something and then, like, get myself in the state or like, let me go, like, read something and then I can get myself there. And she was just living it. And I was so impressed. She. People like, thank you so much. You're amazing for being there for her. And I'm like, me being there for her, I was like, she was there for us. She was there for us because, wow, when we walk out of that room, we were. We were a mess. But every time we walked in there, she would just look. Just kind of smile, and she would just give us so much strength.

God, I wish. I pray that in my hardest moments, I have the capabilities that you just expressed about your wife.

Yeah, she's impressive. I'm impressed. I'm just like, I'm in awe of her. And. Yeah. And we're just beyond thankful because, you know, we also understand we were in the ICU and we saw a lot of people coming in and out.

Yeah, right.

And, you know, weren't. Weren't, you know, fortunate.

And the Brain is so.

It's wild. Wild. It's really unbelievable.

Yeah.

And it's unbelievable, too. And by the way, going back to dance, the doctors were like, dude, there's no way she's gonna be dancing within a year. And Haley was like, I'm gonna do that in a couple weeks. And they're like, no, no, no. Like, sit down. You know? But her recovery was so impressive, and the doctors were so in awe and so shocked. And I really. I really believe that the athleticism and her dancing was a big factor in that.

Yeah, I would. I would completely co. Sign that. Yeah. And thank you for sharing. It's like, one of the hardest moments you've probably ever been through. And to celebrate her ability to be there for you and you to be there for her. And underneath the surface, you are eloquently describing the three C's as it comes to the research around hardiness and resilience. And according to research that people are resilient, those that are the most resilient, they focus on controlling what they can control. It sounds like it was Haley being the best Haley she can be. Like, it is what it is. And I'm going to. I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to go back. I'm going to just keep doing the way I do my life, which is I'm going to try to be my best. Control the things that are in your control, like, really commit to staying in the fight, you know, and not, like, pulling out of it. Woe is me. Whatever. So a full commitment when it's hard, and then seeing this thing as a challenge more so than even a setback, it's like, okay, what's the challenge in here? What do I need to learn? What do I need? I'm gonna figure it out. So it sounds like she did all three of those, like, you know, organically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That again, that was what was so impressive about it, because she just was. I would come in like, okay, babe, this. What are you gonna do? And she goes, yeah, I know.

Yeah, I got you.

I got it. I got this. Like, I, I, I'm. I'm. She would. I would come in with game plans and stuff. She's like, yeah, I got it. Yeah, it was pretty impressive. Yeah.

I just want to say thank you for how you brought yourself forward in this conversation. There's a clarity and a spark. There's a knowing that you come from that only comes from deep work. And so it's cool. It's recognized, and that deep work is on your craft and on yourself. And I 100% see the genius of creativity that others Nastya we didn't get to Nastya. Like her question is really about like how do you get through the the judgment piece? But I think we've, I do think we've answered it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Kachava. For me, the rhythm of my day, it really matters. I spend most of my time toggling between working with our clients to help them unlock their team's potential, deep creative and strategy work, preparing for podcast guests here at the Mastery Lab, and of course other moments that demand my full attention and presence. And what I found is how I fuel that rhythm. It makes a big difference. That's why I like cachava. And this can be a great new addition to your routine as well. It's a whole body meal shake with plant based protein that tastes equally as delicious as it is nourishing. It's a simple way to start the day or a great ad after a workout. I like the vanilla or the chai just blended with a little coconut milk and some frozen blueberries, some smooth. It tastes great. It's exactly what you need on those days that demand the most from you. And hopefully those are a lot of days. What I really appreciate is the integrity of their ingredients. 25 grams of plant based protein, 85 plus superfoods and adaptogens like matcha root and sacha and chi. No artificial flavors, no color sweeteners, no fillers. Just real nourishment to support your body and mind in whatever you're getting after. Whether I'm traveling or on the move or locking in for focus sessions, Kachava is a solid choice. Fuel your day with Kachava. Go to kachava.com and use the code finding mastery for 15% off your next order. That's Kachava K A C H a v a kachava.com and then use the code finding mastery for 15% off.

Can I share one thing about Nasty real fast?

Yeah.

Just is my favorite moment and this wasn't on camera but it's a moment that I love sharing about her. Nastya Lukin is one of my favorite like all time moments actually.

Nastya for those that don't know, gold medalist, 2008 Beijing Games, five time medalist, Olympic medalist shifted the the paradigm of sport because her body type was different than the so her and Misty have kind of this similar type of narrative about, you know, who they are and what they've done. So anyways, Nastia is An Olympic legend.

Yeah. Nastya Lukin. And I asked her, I sat there and I said, because here's the truth was that she. She. I remember the media saying, like, oh, she had this, like, resting RBF or something like that, where she had this, like, focused face or she had this, like, look on her or whatever it was. And. And she's like, that's just my focus face. And. And I was just trying to, like, get to know her a little more on a deeper level, you know, halfway through the season, I was trying to unlock something. I was trying to unlock a performance aspect of her. And I just asked her, I said. I said, hey, is your name Nastya? And she goes, no, no, no, no. She goes, my name is actually Anastasia. And I was like, oh, Anastasia, that's so soft. Softer. I was like, well, when did Nastya come into this? And she goes, when I started gymnastics, I was like, well, how old was that? And she goes, well, I was about 6 years old. And I was like, oh. I was like, well, let's talk about Anastasia. Let's talk about before you did gymnastics. Let's talk about before you were six. And let's talk about Anastasia. And I'm not even kidding you, man. It was the craziest thing I've ever seen. Her whole, like, face just went. It, like, softened and it changed. She just, like, morphed before my eyes into Anastasia. And I was like, whoa, I feel like I'm. You're just. You're different. You are different instantly. And she goes, I never really thought about that girl. Kind of like what we did before.

Totally.

And from that moment on, I only called her Anastasia. I say, anastasia. Let's go over here, Anastasia. Let's go over here, Anastasia. And so she would come over and she just had this, like, joy and then the softness to her. And because Nastya was the competitor, she was like the. I gotta get this shit done, you know?

Gnarly. Yeah.

And Anastasia was this. This little girl that, like, wanted to dance and wanted to perform. And there was such an amazing shift in her. And for me, it was just one of those cool moments where just acknowledging and diving a little bit deeper into somebody's history and then to literally witness her morph into a different human being before my eyes was, like, the wildest thing. I was honestly like, where are the cameras? I was like, you guys missed the best part. The most incredible thing ever. But we shared a really special bond, you know, in that moment. And it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. And I just love. I Love that story because again, it goes into the psychology, the emotion and not just the mechanics of dance. There's so much more to it and performance in any walk of life, you know.

So, you know, as you're describing that, I'm like, it must be amazing and terrifying to be coached by you. And I say that with the highest regard. Amazing because you're really trying to understand how to co create something and you also understand that to do that beautiful bouquet thing that we were talking about earlier, to create that thing is going to need some stretching. There's going to be something that is going to need to be beyond what we're. What feels safe.

Yeah.

And I feel like because you care about the relationship and you're really invested in helping unlock that being in service, that you would create the right condition for people to take that step into the messy unknown and to do it publicly and to do it first privately with you and then publicly in front of others. And even me thinking about being coached by you, I can feel my heart rate elevate. I think you, you've got a unique skill in doing that. So bravo. Really cool.

Thank you, man.

Wait, before we go, Ovation. Yeah, tell me about Ovation.

You know, we be talking about serving, talking about coaching, teaching. Ovation is a as a convention competition that my sister and I have created where it's just that, you know, we want to create an event and they where you can come and compete at a high level in any different type of genre of dance, whether it be like Latin and ballroom, jazz, contemporary, hip hop, where you can like learn from incredible coaches. And we don't, I don't really do these, you know what I mean? But this one I'm very excited about because we want to make this at such a high level and truly an experience. And of course the competition as well. And it's only going to be seven events. There's seven of them across the countries from like Chicago, New York, Louisiana, Dallas, Miami, Utah, California, Arizona. It's an incredible dance experience, you know, so if you're a dancer for studios, for us as well, it's about elevating dancers to give them opportunities to where they have more opportunities but also are on the same level as, as athletes. So. So it's gonna be a three day weekend.

Okay.

The first day is actually gonna be a big show where it's like, it's like they could be open to the public. Anybody can come watch. It's gonna be like an amazing production show so we can come and watch and just be Entertained and be like.

You and your friends are dancing.

Myself, beautiful choreographers, amazing dancers, choreographers, music, lights, the whole thing, the whole Shabam. And then the next day is gonna be, you know, lessons from, like, you know, the best coaches in the country. What makes this one special is that this is a sort of a hybrid where you can take, like, a dance studio, can take their, like, contemporary jazz piece that they take to all the other conventions and competitions. They can compete that Ovation. But what we also have is the ballroom world, because the bar world, the ballroom and Latin world is its own thing, and then the convention space is its own thing, too.

So you're pull. Are you pulling those two together?

We literally are bringing those two together.

Yeah. So Ovation, I see it. This is great. This is like, literally the O. Yeah. Right.

So that's what we're doing. Bring those two together. And it's this hybrid experience where you can. You can kind of pick your own, you know, experience, essentially. But, yeah, we're bringing them together because. Because the thing was, what's amazing too, is the ballroom and Latin world has gotten so much bigger and has grown in the popularity.

And also, I think social media has helped.

Absolutely.

You know. Yeah. Because they're phenomenal movers and.

And honestly, Dancing the Stars, like, yeah, it's the largest dance show.

Yeah. You guys were the first mover.

Yeah. 46 countries and it's. It's extraordinary. So, yeah, so Ovation is going to be. It's a new. It's a new adventure. And our plan is to do seven this year. December, Chicago, and then 2026. May, like, January, February, March. May is sort of like the. The window of the other dates.

Where do you want us to follow? Is it you're. You on Social? Is it dot com? Yeah.

Ovationdance tour.com is where you can get all the information about it and of course, some Ovation Dance, you know, on Instagram. But, yeah, man, it's exciting. We're gonna. We have plans to go international.

We gotta find a way to dovetail, like, to. To help them kind of invest in the mental skills, like a crash course on mental skills for these competitors.

Whereas.

Yeah, like, you know, because you. You could do a lot of real, you know, advancement in somebody's ability to express with just unlocking how to be calm, just how to speak to themselves.

My man. My man. No, I don't know why I said like that. My man. That's honestly is exactly what we want to do.

Yeah.

Because again, there's been the classes, the Competition. But listen, I got burned out when I was like, 15, 16 years old. I was like, oh, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. I'm like, I'm tapped out. I'm done with dance. And you see that a lot. You see a lot of young dancers burning out really young, because it's just a lot. And there's.

Well, it's about chasing the external. And that's very dangerous because you're not in control of it. One of the simple little practices I do with professional athletes and even, like my son and when I'm helping out his team is it's a simple, simple little practice that maybe you can pass this forward is before every practice, one to three goals that are 100% under your control, whether it's an NFL athlete about to on Sunday playing in front of whatever, millions. Hey, man, what are your three goals? Oh, you know, my three. Bang, bang, bang. And they're all 100% under that person's control. So it puts the athlete, the mover, back in a position of power.

Yes.

And so it's a. That's the simplest little thing.

It's not winning, but the simple things are the things that are needed because they're. You can apply them.

Yeah, right. And then there's not like a big drag on something like that.

No. You're like, oh, gosh, I have to do this thing. It's like, oh, no, this is. I can do this.

Wait, hold on. What. What are you in control of? What is the kind of. Where are you pointing? What does success look like? Is like, what those three goals stand for. Yeah. So, Derek, I just have to say, like, this has been a real treat, a joy. Thank you so much for how you share and what you've shared. I hope that it's been equally as rewarding as you. And I do hope that we celebrate your genius because it's that I feel like that's part of my role here. And so I hope it's come forward for you in just the right way that I'm feeling it. I'm just really grateful to be able to meet you this way.

Thank you so much, ma'. Am. The pleasure is all mine. Thank you.

Next time on Finding Mastery. We're joined by clinical psychologist and narcissism expert Dr. Ramani Devassala. In this conversation, she and Dr. Gervais unpack how to spot narcissistic traits, protect your peace, and answer the big questions. Can someone with narcissistic tendencies ever change? And if you're in a relationship with a narcissist. Should you stay or should you leave? Join US on Wednesday, July 30, 9am Pacific for this revelatory conversation. All right, thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or Follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Hunch over to findingmastery.com newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously and the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals@findingmastery.com sponsors and remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional, so seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, Be well, think well, keep exploring. Come on.