Olympic Gold Medalist: Other People Were Killing My Confidence (And How I Got It Back) - Caroline Marks

Caroline is the youngest surfer ever to.

Qualify for the World Championships tour.

Carolyn Marks, a seasoned crusty veteran at.

The age of 16, the defending world Surf League champion. She has her eyes set on the goal. When I took time off, it was like six months of, like, intensive therapy. Like, I didn't touch a surfboard. Like, it was all like, okay, who's Caroline?

What if the key to becoming a champion isn't about chasing wins, but knowing when to pause as a surfer?

Like, you start very young and you finish, finish very young. You're learning so much about yourself, but you're also put on the stage of like, you're supposed to be perfect and have everything figured out.

Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I AM your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high performance psychologist. Now, the idea behind these conversations is simple. To sit with the extraordinaries and to learn, really learn how they work from the inside out. Today's guest is Caroline Marks, the 2023 World Surf League women's champion and the 2024 Olympic gold medalist. What makes Caroline remarkable is not just her talent in the water, it's her humility, her mental strength, her commitment to using her platform to elevate women's sports around the world.

Being vulnerable is actually really powerful. And a lot of people feel like the things that I felt, and so once I was open about that, I was like, whoa. So many people can relate to this.

And, like, I'm not alone in this conversation. About how she rebuilt herself after the heartbreak of the Tokyo Olympics.

Surfing, it's so cutthroat. There's no team metal. It's like, all on you. It's kind of emotional for me, like, when I was just in that state of mind, I was so, like, low, you know, and it was pretty sad. But at the same time, it's so beautiful too, because, like, I know where I'm at now and the best things in my career have happened after I went through the hardest time of my life. And it's such, like, a big part of my story, and now I'm almost proud of it.

With that, let's jump into this week's conversation. Caroline Marks. Caroline, this is something I've wanted to do for a long time is to be able to reflect and celebrate who you are. And first of all, congratulations on your entire body of work and how much that you have done in a very short amount of time. So thank you for Being here. And thank you for including us in your adventure and journey.

Amazing. Thanks for having me. It's been a while, like, five years since I've seen you, so I feel like this is a long time coming. Yeah. Really happy to be here.

It was a bit of a blur. Like, the Tokyo Games was, in my mind, a very special game. And it was your first Olympics, and, you know, one of the coolest things across all the Games that I've been able to participate in. You have a very special place, if not the coolest moment that I've experienced in the Games. And so it was. I don't know if you remember much of this, but it stood out to me, like, above all else. Of course, you wanted to win, you know, and you were in the conversation to podium at the Games. You lost your heat and your teammate, who is also your competitor, like, top competitor.

Yeah.

I mean, she's one of the best in the world as well. Right. And so we're talking about Carissa Moore. You lost your heat, and you were out of metal contention. I didn't see what you did, but I know you gathered yourself. I think you went back to our house, and then you came back to the beach, and then you waited and you watched, and you were one of the first people to celebrate her when she was winning, the thing that you so, so wanted. And then to top it off, I think you, like, you were the first person at the house to greet her again when this championship moment was taking place. The thing that you wanted, and you were grieving, you were going through the loss of that grief, and at the same time, you were able to celebrate somebody who had the exact same thing that you had hoped for. It was one of the coolest moments I've ever seen in an Olympic sport. And I knew at that moment your talent speaks for itself, but I knew in that moment, bet on Caroline. She has the championship stuff. And so thank you for that moment and that memory. It was really cool.

Amazing. That's. That's awesome. Like, that was. Yeah, you shared that story, like, perfectly, now that you were saying it. I remember everything. Like, yeah, it was a crazy moment because getting fourth in the Olympics, as you know, like, that was my first time. And, like, I didn't really realize in that moment, like, how much that was a bummer. You know, like, in the moment, I was, like, super sad. But then I think afterwards, after the fact, and just realizing, like, whoa, like, this opportunity is not going to come back for four years, and that's if you make the team. Again, like, who knows what's going to happen? Injuries can happen. Like, you can have an off year. Like, so many things can happen. And so that actually took me a couple of years to get over. And it was an interesting thing, because Carissa, as a person, I love so much, but she's also my competitor. So it's like this funny thing where, like, I'm, like, so happy to celebrate her, but I'm like, gosh, I want that so bad, you know? But looking back, I'm really proud of how I handled that situation. And it didn't. It wasn't like I was trying to put on a show. Like, that's just genuinely. Like, I was just doing what I wanted, and that's what felt right to do. And. And I'm. I'm so grateful. Like, that's how the turnout turned out for her. And then, obviously, now that I have a goal, that feels a lot better. But, you know, like, it all worked out, you know? But in the moment, I was like, damn. Like, that was something that stung really hard because I was just like, well, even if I would have got a bronze, like, you know how, like, you go all the Olympics and it's so cool. You're an Olympian forever, but, like, as a competitor, like, you just want to win, and if you don't get that, like, it's. It's so hard. And surfing, it's so cutthroat. Like, there's no team metal. It's, like, all on you. And, like, it's either, like, you're the. You're the man or you're the woman, or it's. Or it's just, like, no one really cares, you know? So, yeah, that was a really hard moment, but also really a beautiful moment. And, yeah, that was a. It was cool that you were there to experience that. Like, that was. Yeah, it was really fun. We had a great trip, though. Overall, it was a fun trip. A lot of fun.

We could spend the rest of this podcast celebrating all of the laughs and the cries and the whole. Like, the Olympic Games are for big emotions, and if you can't work with big emotions, you get blown right out. And what you're talking about is the complexity of multiple emotions at the same time. Technically, you can't have more than one emotion in an instant, in a. In a moment. So you can have a moment. Let's just say a moment of sadness, and. And then you might replace it with a moment of fear. You might have a moment of anger. So each moment uniquely has its own emotional experience. But the complexity of what you're talking about, seeing a friend win, knowing that that's the thing that you want. So you had sadness, you had a yearning, you had a regret, you had all of those things and you still were the one to give her love, to give her support. I'm telling you, if we could bottle that sophistication up as a 19 year old. You were 19?

19. Yes. Crazy.

Yeah.

It was overwhelming, all those feelings, like hearing you say it out loud. Yes. It's an overwhelming thing because you're just like every emotion, there's so many different ones and everything's like, we're talking about like a scale of 1 to 10 of how you feel even before we walked in here. Like, how are you feeling? Like that four to six is like the range where you want to be in. Like everything felt like a 10 at the Olympics. Like everything's just so heightened, you know, so.

Well, let's just explain that. Like, I think this is a really powerful tool that folks like yourself are very skilled at. But if you imagine 0 to 10 on a scale of emotional intensity or body activation, A10 is like, I feel like I want to throw up. I'm so nervous. So activated, so switched on. And a one is like, I'm totally bored. So we're looking for that 4, 5 and 6, that middle range. A 7 is like, I'm okay but there's a little extra. And eight is like, man, I'm kind of losing myself here. So what are the, what are the ways that you back down from a, let's say an 8 to a 7 to a 6 to a 5?

Breathing is a really big one. And just like being where your feet are, you know, you obviously can't control what's going to happen in front of you. Especially in surfing. Like, you know, you're competing against the ocean and yourself really. Like you have a competitor out there, but like the ocean's just so unpredictable. It's the great equalizer. Like you don't know what's going to happen ever. And you can have this perfect plan with your coach and the ocean can just surprise you. So I think you have to be very good at adapting. And that's where breathing is really helpful. And just being like, okay, like for example, you know you have two minutes left. You need to score. Like you don't know if a wave's gonna come, but just kind of being where, where you are. And breathing I think is a really big one. And being around like I call em, like my feel good people Whether that's like my parents or friends or a coach, whatever. Like I think being around people that make me feel good help me feel a lot better. And I am such a people person, so that really helps me. So between those two things.

So you use your breathing to ground yourself, to relax your activation system, per great science there. And then you use your social community to help also ground you and kind of keep it real for you, if you will. Yeah. And you said feel good meaning that they'll laugh with you, they'll point out some obvious stuff, they'll tell you when you're, you know, I don't know, when your zipper's down and you got a booger in your nose or whatever. Right. And they'll just keep it that way.

For sure.

Yeah.

But I think like just those feel good people too, like they just sometimes know me better than I know myself. Like they know when to lift me up, but also know when to be critical because that's important too. You don't want like yes men around you all the time because that's not going to get you anywhere, you know. So my brothers have been great for that. A lot of constructive criticism growing up, a lot of, lot of tears. Honestly, they were pretty hard on me up until I got the world title and the gold medal. I'm like, till then I'm like, finally you guys are me, a little nicer to me because I accomplished everything in the sport, thank you very much. But, but I think it's important to have people like that too that tell you that, you know, it's real sometimes stuff you don't want to hear.

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Yeah, well I think the number one thing like my parents priority like in the if they're right here, like they would tell you the same thing. Their main priority was just raising a good person. Like they didn't really care about. I mean like they think it's cool that I do what I do. I hope but like I don't think they really care. Like they're just like we want you to be a good person, respectful like and you know, know how to do the dishes, know how to do the laundry, whatever Things like that. You have a great education. And also.

Did you finish high school?

I did finish high school. Didn't go to college, but finish high school.

Yeah. I ask and you know this, but I think most won't know that. Most people on tour, like, high school is kind of optional.

Totally.

Yeah.

For sure.

Yeah.

And I think the other thing that they're just like.

They had you finish?

Yes, they had me finish. I was like, still, I was on the tour finishing high school, and then I, like, walked down the aisle of my mom's, like, house. Because it was during COVID when I graduated. Yeah, it was great. I had fun. And then the other thing.

Wait, before you go one. You said a good person. What defines a good person? Because it's more than making your bed and.

Totally. Yeah, I. I think just having, like, you know, good morals and kind of. Yeah. Gratitude, being respectful, things like that.

Is there one. One value that is really important to you right now?

I think, like, trust is being very trustworthy. I think that's a really big one. Just being solid. I feel like if you're trustworthy, you're just such a. That's just a. Such a solid foundation in a human to have, you know, I love the simplicity. I don't know. Right. Like, I don't know. I'm spitballing here, but that's what I'm thinking about.

But if I. So you're saying you're really solid if other people can trust you.

Yeah, I like that. I guess so. I don't know.

I mean, did you know there's three legs to the theory of trust?

No, I. Tell me.

Okay, good. So trust has three kind of legs to the stool, if you will. And this. This is pretty well documented and researched. Is that if I'm trusting you. Let's do it in reverse. If you're trusting me, do you trust my ability? Do you trust my logic? Let's say that's one variable. Do you trust that I can go get something done that I say I'm going to get done? Okay, so that's logic or ability. The second is do you trust? It's called benevolence. Do you trust that I have your best interest and my best interest, both of us, in mind? Not that it's only good for me, but it's good for we. Okay. And the other is integrity. Do I show up the same way when it's super stressful and when it's really easy? So if I'm a different person when it's stressful, you're Like, I don't know, you kind of change. You switch codes a little bit there. And, man, it's always about good for Mike. I don't think he really cares about what's good for me. And the other is, like, I don't think he can get it done. So that would be low trust. High trust is like, yeah, I think. I think he can get it done. It's good for both of us. And, like, he's kind of the same person.

Yeah.

So that's right on. Yeah, you're right on.

Yeah. That's cool. I've never. I've never heard that.

So. If you're ever struggling with somebody that you don't trust, it's one of those three things.

Okay.

It's not, like, general. It's one of those three. I don't think that they see what's good for both of us.

Right.

It's all about them.

Right.

Or they just keep. They keep, like, changing. I don't know what to real. I don't know what's real.

Yeah.

Or, you know, they. They think they're really good at this thing, but I don't trust that when there's pressure on it that they can actually execute.

Totally. And, like, I don't think that makes someone, like, a bad person, like, at all. It's just sometimes, I don't know, maybe you weren't taught that or just. Or they just don't really care about you that much, which is fine. I mean. Yeah, it is what it is.

So one more thing that makes your parents. That you are super grateful that your parents did or said. Or it could be even something as spec, like a moment that they leaned over and whispered something to you or did something.

I think. I mean, I guess just with, like, surfing and stuff like that, like, they had a really healthy balance of, like, pushing me, but also not, like, making it a chore for me. And I think that's why I'll love surfing forever, you know, Like. And obviously it ebbs and flows, like, when, you know, there's moments where you really love it. There's moments where it's like, you're kind of tired and it's not as fun, whatever, but, like, I think forever. I'll surf forever no matter what. Like, when I'm done competing and I'll have that joy still just because they never, like, forced me to do it, you know, it just all came for me. And when we were growing up, all my siblings, they were like, hey, like, we just don't want you to go home. And play video games. Like, we want you guys to do something, but whatever you choose to do, whether that's a sport or just a normal job, like, we'll just support you in that. And I think, like, that's why, like, just surfing, it came so natural. And I'm really grateful they approached it like that, you know, because my older brother was a professional surfer, and they could have easily just force me into that. Like, oh, we see talent here. Just force you into it. But I rode horses, and then I dropped horseback riding and then picked up a surfboard just naturally, just because I wanted to. And so I'm really grateful that they. It was never like a chore or anything. They weren't super hard on me.

Do you remember a moment after a loss, either a car ride home or walk from the beach, something that they said that has stuck with you, that's really helped you?

I think a lot of times, like, I've had a couple moments where I'm like, I'm over it. Like, I can't take it, you know, like, you just losing sucks so much. Like, you blood, like, blood, sweat and tears, and you live breathy winning. Like, you just want to want it so bad. And I think them just kind of like, hey, you don't. You don't have to. Like, it's okay. Like, we love you the same. I think that's a. That's been a really big one for me. Just, like, we just. We just love you. Like, it's all good, you know? And then I'm like, wait a second. No, I don't want to stop. You know, I, like, I love. I love it.

It's.

You know what I mean? Yeah. But I never actually wanted to quit. Like, I. You know, but, like, you have moments where you just get so frustrated, and I think a lot of athletes can probably relate to where you just feel so low. But, yeah, my parents, like, I'm so grateful for them, and they're a huge reason for my success and how I am today. And, like, I'm just super grateful for them.

Their identity is not wrapped in your success as an athlete.

Like, they have totally their own thing going on. Like, my whole family, like, they. Everyone does different things. Like, you know, no one's. Like, they don't even. Not that they don't care. It's just. They don't need me or anything like that. You know, they totally have their own things going on, which is really cool. And it's cool because my family surfs. It's something we can do together. And it's something we can all share together which is so special and awesome, you know. And what makes our journey so special is sharing it with people you love. And I'm just really grateful for that like sometimes like seeing, I mean like all these experiences even like, you know, one of the cool things about the games this year is that we were able to have family there. And like it made that moment so much more special because I can like share that with my mom, share that with my dad, like my brothers. Like if I had no one there with me, like it wouldn't have been as cool, you know, like I would have been stoked but it wouldn't have been like as special. And like seeing my mom like crying like that made me more stoked than anything. I was like this is the coolest thing ever. So. Yeah. Or like seeing my brother get a good wave, like that's almost more fun to me than me getting a good wave sometimes, you know, Like I don't know.

So yeah, you are full of a lot of emotion to see it again, even grab it when you feel grateful. It comes to the surface for you too.

Yeah, for sure.

Your emotions are awesome gift to you.

Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah, it's really cool. One thing that you've seen other parents do to kids and you're like, oh my goodness, like I wish no parent would ever do that again.

I think just the negative self taught, like you don't realize like I think sometimes parents are trying to push their kid and I don't even think it comes from a bad place. But saying something about you know, how even how you look or what you're doing or like how you act like that honestly sometimes can really affect like when you're younger you're like a sponge. You're just like absorbing everything. And so like a lot of qualities you're taught when you're younger, like that's how you are going to be when you're older. And I think sometimes like being too hard on your kids, like it's, I think it's a good balance. Like you want to raise them right and stuff. But I also think like the negative self talk, I think too much of that. I don't think it's very good. And I thankfully I didn't really have much. My brothers were gnarly on me but like not in a super bad way. Like I turned out fine, whatever, you know, only cried a few times but you know, like, but I think a lot of negative self talk is that's probably the worst thing I'd say yeah.

I want to stay on the emotional bit for a moment here because emotions are running the whole thing. And the Olympics, like I said, are for big emotions. So I would love to spend some time to really understand how you work with emotions. And what are the emotions that are most difficult for you, and what are the emotions that are pretty easy for you to work with. Can we start with the ones that are hard?

Yeah. This is a great question. I guess I haven't really thought about, like, I guess no one's really asked me that question. And it's. I am a very emotional person. Like, I think I'm very passionate. Like, if I'm into something, I'm like, tend to toes down about it.

What does that mean? 10 toes down.

Just, like, all in, you know, like, if I'm. If I'm into surfing, like, I'm gonna try really hard to be the best. Like, there's no, like, oh, I'm kind of gonna get into it, you know? Like, I'm starting to get into golf, but I'm like, now I want to play every single day, you know, Like, I want to be the best at it, which is a great quality to have. But sometimes having extreme emotions can be a little tricky to balance. And it's something I've had to work on, and it's something I work on every day, you know, I want to interrupt.

I'm sorry. Like, can you say how you work on them?

I think doing things, like, daily that make me happy, whether that's, like, I don't know, getting a coffee with my friend or, like, having a great conversation, like, connecting. And like I said before, like, I am such a people person. So, like, having those connections are really good for me. And most of, like, my life, you know, the pillar of surfing and training, like, that one's super full. But I think for me, it's important to, like, fill that, like, family and friends cup because that one's, like, pretty low all year, especially when you're on the road competing and stuff like that. So being around people, I can be completely myself around is something that's really good for me. I don't feel any judgment from. That's a big one. So stuff like that, or if it's like, whatever, making my favorite food or, like, riding a fun board. I don't know. Little things like that. It sounds kind of cheesy, but it's what helps me.

So I hear two things in there. I hear. First is, like, doing small little things that, like, are nice. Yeah, right. Like a fun board or a coffee with a friend.

Going shopping, I don't know, getting my nails done. Like, I love stuff like that. You know, it's fun.

I just heard somebody the other day say, is it called retail therapy?

Oh, yeah.

You go shopping for, like, I needed everywhere. It's a very dangerous thing. Very dangerous. So, all right, so there's those pleasantries that are nice, and then the other thing that I think you're pointing to is connections with people that you can be fully you and can you speak to how you build those and when. I'm assuming that's important because you know what it's like to not have that for sure. Okay.

I think it's funny because almost everyone in my friend group and there's been a couple new people, but almost everyone in my close inner circle. Like, there's a lot of people that are, like, outside the circle, and there's only a few that you, like, really, really let in that you really trust and that have been there for you. They're really good moments and really bad moments. And a lot of people that have been in my life have been there since day one. And I notice I always gravitate towards people like that. Like, before I was a surfer had any accolades or anything like that. And I feel like a lot of safety in that for some reason. I don't know why, but I feel like when I see someone be there for me when things aren't going great, when they're still there for me and still like, hey, I'm here for you, still give me the same amount of love, those are the people I gravitate towards. And I feel like that shows, like, someone's true character.

So let's just call that for a placeholder. Like, trust. Like, I trust that they are not judgy, critiquing. They're not around me because I'm famous and talented or whatever, but they are actually interested in the character of Caroline. So trust for you does. Is trust given or trust earned?

Maybe a bit of both, I think. Earned a little.

I don't know.

I haven't even thought about all these things. This is great. I'm learning about myself. Thank you.

Well, you know, it's funny, your laugh. Your laugh reminds me. I'm not going to move off with the question because I think it's a really. I want to learn how you do it. And there's not a right, a wrong way of any of this. Right. It's like your way that's good. But, you know, your. Your Laugh reminded me. We were in Tokyo in the stands on the beach, and we're having a conversation and we'd been hanging out for, like, I don't know, 10 days maybe it was like three. I think we were. The team house. Was together for three weeks, probably.

Yeah. Three and a half a month.

Almost a month.

Yeah.

What a great month.

So fun. The vending machines in the house. I mean, are you kidding me? That was so cool. It's my favorite part. Really? Yeah, it was great. It's like my dream.

The Japanese cuisine was on.

Yeah, but.

So we're having a good conversation and we had talked about a lot up those first 10 days, you know, and then you lean over, you go, wait. Are you like a psychologist?

Yeah. No idea. I was really, really embarrassed. We were having a conversation before this, and I was so embarrassed I said that. I'm like.

I think it's like, oh, my goodness. It stuck with me because it was such a high compliment. Because for me, it's like, you didn't have this box that you put me in. And it was two people really trying to sort out how for you to be your best, for sure. You know?

And I was just like, this guy's super cool. Like, what is he here for this. Great. We're getting along. This is great. Yeah.

Must be a manager or something. Like, this is great.

I don't know, like.

But we haven't done any physio yet. No.

So what? Yeah, that's great. I do remember that. That was pretty funny.

It was really fun. Yeah. So anyways, let's. But your laugh reminded me of that moment. And so. So let's go back to the question. Do you give trust or is trust earned?

I think earned and then it's given, probably. Yeah. But it's funny because I'm the same.

Way, by the way.

Yeah. But I've also, like. I think that's also too. Because I've had. I've given trust and that trust has been broken. So I think now I'm like, you know, maybe earn the trust, then given the trust. I don't know. I am a very, like, with my friends and stuff, like, shirt off my back. Like, I'm really there for you. So I think sometimes I expect that from other people. And not everyone's like that, which is okay. But I think it's taken me a minute to learn that. I'm like, wait, not everyone's, you know, has that type of personality. And that's just kind of how I was raised, too. And a lot of it is how you're raised. And so my family's very like, you know, if you're in, you're super in, you know, we'll do anything for you kind of thing.

So yeah, so that's why you have a tight inner circle, which is important that you have earned the trust of them for sure. And they've earned in reverse as well. And I think there's something important just to land on, which is the definition of trust is that I'm going to make something vulnerable that I really value. And that thing that I really value, like my heart or my time or my money, whatever it might be, it's important to me and I'm going to make it vulnerable by trusting you with it, by giving it to you. And if somebody is sloppy with it, then they, they should not be in the inner circle for sure. Yeah.

What do they say? Like trust takes years to, years to build and seconds to lose or years to earn, seconds to lose or something like that. So that stuck with me. I forget someone told me that and I was like, that's so true. Like someone can be your friend for 10 years and something happens and you're like, wait a second, you know. But I'm also aware, like nobody's perfect. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I've done a lot of things to piss my friends off that they're like, we're never gonna talk to her again. But you know, there's certain lines you just don't cross, I think.

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23.

23. Are you aware, I mean, you have experienced a full life at 23.

It's crazy.

You were on the world tour at 15.

15? Yeah, 15.

You picked up a surfboard at the age of 11. You, I don't know, months or a couple of years later, you're kind of thrown in at age 13, I think you're on the, the national team.

Yeah, yeah, it was my first. That was my first, like, pro event. I got a wild card into, like, yeah, the pro event. So I was around like all my heroes. It's.

And, and you brought it to him, right?

Yeah. It's funny looking back, I was so oblivious to the world. Like, I didn't think about anything besides like my next wave, my next meal. It was great. I wish I can think like that now.

That's why I wanted to ask is, like, so you, you've had a full, rich life, big emotions. You've practiced being in very uncomfortable situations, probably more than most people would, would have in their lifetime. And because competitions and practices and when you're right at that emotional edge of like, am I going to fall into a thousand pieces? Is this whole thing going to evaporate? You know, it's kind of what the edge feels like for most people. And you've got to surf well. You got to put it on edge. You got to get to the edge of the envelope physically. And I'm talking more emotionally here for a moment. Let's come back to the physical edge in surfing in a moment because it's a beautiful concept. But are you aware of your blind spots that have caused pain in others or pain in yourself?

Yeah, this kind of goes back to the people pleasing thing we talked about. I guess another thing too, you're talking about being uncomfortable. Like, I think almost all good things happen outside of your comfort zone. Like almost all good things. You know, like I was telling you before, I'm like winning a Gold medal is not that comfortable. Or, like, you know, winning. Surfing a big wave or whatever it is, you know, or climbing a huge mountain. People do crazy stuff that I'm like, I would never do that, you know? So that's something that's really cool, and that's something that has really motivated me to kind of get over my fears and stuff like that. And I'm like. I just know, like, if I want you almost, like, want your dreams to be scary, and if they're scary, it's like, a really good thing. But, yeah, I've. I've. Honestly, I feel like I've learned more about, like, my blind spots the last couple years. You know, when I took time off, that was before that. I never saw a sports psychologist or never. I just didn't really, you know, I didn't even know what that was really like. Hence my question, who are you? So I think as much as, like, that time that I had off was, like, one of the hardest times emotionally, ever. It definitely was to this point in my life. And I know I might go through something else in the future, but up until this moment, that's been the hardest year of my life emotionally and for my career and everything. And. But looking back, I'm really grateful for it because it really made me learn a lot about myself.

Okay, so just for clarity, you are rolling on the world stage. Like, you are one of the top three, five best in the world. Is that fair? And then you decide you're gonna kind of pull the chute and you're gonna pull out of your career, and you took a break. Yeah, right. And in elite sport, it's considered a dangerous thing to do because elite sport is happening. The progression of sport is happening so fast. And when I heard that you were doing that, I thought, oh, boy, watch out. Because she's gonna. She's gonna go dial in. She's gonna go attack her mental, emotional part of herself the same way she attacks the technical, physical part of being an elite surfer. And I thought, it's on, like, competitors. Watch out. And I know that you probably would not have felt that because it was dark and hard.

I was just gonna say, like, it's cool that you thought that way, because I thought the opposite in that moment. Yeah?

What did you think?

Oh, I just was like, you know, all the questions, like, am I ever gonna come back to how I was before? Like, am I ever gonna be able to be at that level again? Like, can I handle it emotionally? Like, more than the physical part, I just. Emotionally, I'm like, am I gonna be able to handle this? Like, that's just so. I just remember the emotions were so extreme, like, just so, like, you're on the highest of the highs and the lowest of the lows when you lose. And it just was, like, so much to handle. And then I'm, like, trying to figure out who I am as a person. I'm like, well, who am I? Like, what? You know, like, you just. It's confusing kinda. I think Covid had a big, big part to do with that, too. Just kind of, like everything being on pause, and then I just had to sit there and be like, wait a second. What do I. What do I do now?

What are you feeling as you say it?

It's kind of emotional for me. Like, looking back to how I felt in that. When, like, when I was just in that state of mind, I was so, like, low, you know? And it was pretty sad. But at the same time, it's so beautiful, too, because, like, I know where I'm. I'm at now, and the best things in my career have happened after I went through the hardest time of my life, which is so beautiful. And it's such, like, a big part of my story, and now I'm almost proud of it. But I think as an athlete, what I've struggled with is being vulnerable sometimes is shown as, like, a weakness. And I think I kind of, like, reframed that thinking. Like, being vulnerable is actually really powerful, and a lot of people feel, like, the things that I felt. And so once I was, like, open about how I was feeling and struggling with motivation and not really enjoying surfing as much and just mentally not being in a good place. Once I was open about that, I was like, whoa, so many people can relate to this, and I'm not alone. And that just made me feel so much better.

What did you just do two minutes ago, when you were flooded with all those emotions, when they were right at the surface, you allowed some emotions to come to the surface, and then did you make a decision? Like, no, I'm not going to open it up all the way, or I'm just going to recognize that they're there and see where they go. Like, what did you just do?

Yeah, definitely. Like, you know, I definitely. I don't really want to cry on the podcast, to be honest. So. Yeah, you hold him back. No, I'm. It's okay. I'm. I'm fine, you guys. No, I promise. No, but I think.

Yeah. Was that the guiding thought? Like, I don't want to Cry?

No, I think. I think just kind of like peeling it back. But I'll just reframe my thinking of, like. Oh, it's maybe like. Yeah, in the moment it was sad, but now I'm, like, so proud of it. So it's actually like a happy thought almost. So I think just both, I think. Yeah, for sure. Happy, sad. Yeah.

Because I think what you just did is probably part of your crown jewel, is that you don't stuff it down. You feel a lot, and then it comes up to the surface. And if there's a lot of sadness, like, that's hard to work with. And so you said, I'm going to take a break. Okay. So when there's a lot of joy comes to the surface and you're like, oh, this is easy, you know? So I think I just saw one of your crown jewels, which is. The emotions came back up, which was like. It was dark, it was hard. I was sad, I was lonely. And then you're like, yeah, but then I worked through it. So then the other set of emotions came through. So I think that that is probably part of, like, the demystifying why you're so good at what you do.

That's cool. I've never thought of it like that, but I guess now that you just said that makes a lot of sense. Like, yeah, that's really cool.

So stay here for just one more kind of turn of the screw. Was it lonely? Was it sad? Was it. What was the main thing? That was a fatigue.

I think my priorities were a little bit out of whack. Like, surfing wasn't my number one priority anymore, and I was focused on other things. I think I wasn't around the best group of people. I wasn't making the best decisions. That kind of led into some, like, depression and just not really enjoying where I was at. Which is crazy because I feel like I've always been a very. Like, I was raised so well. Like, great childhood, like, great family, you know, very positive. No, like, you know, talking down me or anything like that. I feel like I've always been a really happy, secure person. And then I kind of found myself pretty insecure and just overthinking everything and worried about what everyone thinks about me. And, you know, it's hard. You grow up in a bikini in front of a camera, and it's a very subjective sport. And I've been doing it since I've been, like, 12. So, like, some point, I think all those emotions. Now, looking back, I didn't realize this in the moment, but looking back, I'm like, oh, like, no wonder you, like, got burned out. Like, fair enough. You know, like, there's a lot that you kind of went through and. And it is sometimes a bit lonely. Like, you know, in order to get to the top, it's pretty lonely. And I think you have to be really good at managing those emotions, which is hard for someone that loves people and loves family and loves those deep connections. Like, it's crazy because, like, I talked to this about, like, Lakey Peterson's one of my good friends on tour, and we laugh about it because, like, she's like, it. We. There's like, this wall that's up. Like, we're really good friends, but there's this, like, wall because, like, you don't want to get that close. But I'm also, like, dang. Like, I can relate to you more than, like, any of my other friends because we do the literal, exact same thing. You know, we have the same feelings, but we're not really going to talk about that until this is all done with. And we kind of laugh about it, you know, because it's so true. But I don't know, it's just. It's a. Yeah, a lot to deal with, but I feel like I've now have found a really good balance with my emotions. Like, I'm a lot more even keeled than I used to be, I think. And that also comes with maturity, too. I think you just kind of get more used to, like, okay, cool. I think this will be my eighth year on tour now. So you kind of just learn how to deal with those emotions and also find what works for you. Like, I think when you're younger, you're kind of looking at everyone else like, what are they doing? And now I'm just, like, I'm so secure in my own program, and that's been. That's been really cool.

So how much time did you invest in your psychology?

A lot. I mean, when I took time off, it was like six months of, like, intensive therapy. Like, all. Like, I didn't touch a surfboard. Like, it was all like, okay, who's Caroline? You know? And, like, I also went home to. Because I live in California, originally from Florida, but I went back to Florida and, like, just went back to my roots and just was, like, with my family and just, like, just back to how I grew up. And I think that was really, really helpful and really cool when it comes.

To living a great life. I think it's something we all want. I think we want it for our nephews and nieces or kids. I think we want it for our loved ones with one of ourselves to live a great life. And I'm not sure you can have that if you don't have one of these big rocks to put in that container. Which is, who am I? What is a compelling future that I want to work toward? And what are the first principles and values that I'm going to navigate this twisted world?

For sure.

You know, twisting. I should say world. And so that big rock, like, who am I? That's. I mean, once you kind of ring that bell and it's like, that's who. Yeah. That. Now I understand me. And I understand, like, my. My core.

It's crazy. It's a crazy thing. I don't know, it's. It's a funny thing being an athlete, because it's almost like a reverse career in a way. Like, you start very young and you finish very young. You know, like, a lot of people, like, I don't know, like, if you go to college and it's like a normal. Like, you're getting your life started almost at like, 30. I mean, some people younger and stuff, but you're, like, more established where, like, as a surfer, like, you're starting at like, 12 and you're. And like, I don't know if you. 30 or that's like 15 years on tour. It's like, so think about those years. Like, you're so vulnerable, you're so young. You're learning so much about yourself, but you're also put on this, like, stage of, like, you're supposed to be perfect and have everything figured out. So I think, like, just kind of balancing that has been.

And you slid a few things in here, which is your connection to your body in. In a public setting, your sport is critiqued and judged, and that's. That collapses on the way that you look and the way that you perform. So there's a body thing in there. Like, there's a. There's an art and a skill, and it's being judged by others. And you still don't know your identity. You know, you're a teenager, so how could you. Yeah, so there's a lot. And you. You slipped in there, like, the loneliness to make it to the top. I'm glad you said that.

Yeah, it's true. It's real. Like. And I. I don't know. Now I almost love it because, like, I don't think, like, super hard. Like, super good things, like, don't come easy. Right. And it's almost like fun. Like if you like reframe your thinking about it, it's almost like fun, like, okay, cool. Like this is really hard right now, but I know, like, it'll be so worth it in the end, you know, So I think just reframing that. But sometimes you're, you know, you're in a hotel room, you're in a different country, like, you know, you have, you, you're on a different time zone. You know, your friends can't call your friends. You're kind of just like, it's raining outside, the waves are bad. You're just sitting there like, well, this is kind of hard. Like, you know what I mean? But.

And the handful of people that really understand are your competitors.

Totally. But you can't really talk to them because like you're trying to beat them. I mean, you can, but it's like kind of weird, you know, it's like this weird wall that's up. Like, like we're all, we actually all are really good friends. Like, I mean I see these girls more than my family, you know, like we're on tour so much. But I think if you had any of them sit down here, they would say like, there is like a little bit of a wall that you just, you don't go like that deep because you know, you have that competitive build block up.

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Oh, I can only, I guess, speak from like personal experience. For me it was like just being around those people that like really care about you. Whether that's like friends for me, I'm so lucky. I have such a great family and great friends and just it's okay to like seek help and get support. Like you know every, like people that really care for you will, will be there for you. And sometimes like people that care about you know you better than you know yourself. So I think leaning on Those people, for me, was really helpful. Like my family in those moments, they're like, you probably should take some time off. And I was already thinking that way, but they kind of just helped me make that decision.

Let's do one more. This is great. Can you speak to the teenager? Probably a girl that is struggling with how her body looks and. Or how she feels in her own body, and maybe she's in a public sport, you know, whatever, but just as somebody that is overly connected to how they feel in their body and they don't like how it feels. Can you speak to her or him?

This is something that I've, like, constantly had to work on. Like I said, you know, I'm in a bikini. A lot of the times I grew up in front of a camera as a girl. There's a lot of hormones and things are changing all the time and whatever. You sometimes look good. Like. Like, I can look good today, and then tomorrow I'm like, gosh, I don't feel like I look that great, you know, like, we all know how that feels. And I think then, like, that's when being around people that make you feel good, I think is really important. Also doing what makes you happy. Like, everyone has such a different body type and everyone, like, they're healthy, looks so different, you know, And I think just knowing that and accepting that is really cool and just being proud of that, like, you know, being strong is beautiful and it's allowing me to, like, surf and do the things that I love so much, you know? And so, yeah, I just think genetically, everyone. Everyone's made it look so different. That's what's so cool about the world. Like, if everyone looked the same, it would be boring, you know. So I think just understanding that is really, really cool. But it is something that I'm constantly working on it. And I think a lot of girls can probably relate to that.

I have a first principle in life that everything you need, Caroline, is already inside of you. And so my partnership with that or my part in that with you is to. To go back to. Your answers are already inside of you. You. So you don't need anybody else to feel completely at home with yourself wherever you are on a 15 foot, you know, wave of consequence or an intimate conversation or walking and feeling vulnerable because there's a camera or people looking at you like it's already in you. So I would go back to that first principle and like, okay, is it working? And you go, no, that's why we're talking. I say, okay, well, what Would you want to change? And you say, well, I want to lose weight, or I want to gain muscle, or I just want not care. Great. Now we got a plan.

Totally.

Right. It's a thinking thing. It's a feeling thing. And then we would practice, you know, kind of radical honesty and compassion in the way that you speak to yourself.

Yeah.

Which I think is actually quite rare for most of us.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it's also even more rare for. For elite athletes. Are you more critical or are you more of a great coach to yourself? Do you back yourself or you cut yourself?

A little bit of both.

And I mean cutting like that. I mean, like, cut yourself down a.

Little bit of both. I think being critical is good. And to an extent, like, you know, I think.

What does that sound like when you're critical?

I think just like, on a wave or something, I'm like, God, do not do that. Turn it. Like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? Like, and that's just me, like, wanting to get better and just, like. You know what I mean? So I think that's.

You don't say, I'm so stupid. I'm so that.

No, I've said that. Honestly, I'm pretty, like, sarcastic. Like, I'm kind of like that a little bit, but I guess it is coming out of my mouth, so maybe I should breathe. We might need to talk. No.

Do you talk to yourself in third person or first person?

A little bit of both. Like, I'm a little bit, like. I will say I do feel like. I do feel like I have a pretty healthy balance of. Of like. Of not talking down on myself, but also, like, being critical to where, like, okay, like, not being super satisfied. Like, I want to. I want more, and, like, I want to keep getting better, you know, I think that's really important, too, and really health. Healthy.

Yeah. So you believe that you can do more. You believe there's more. There's. You can put it more on the edge.

Totally.

You can trust yourself on the bottom turn a little bit more. You can hold a line that's hard to hold a little bit longer. So you believe there's more in you?

Absolutely.

Do you think there's more in you? Do you know there's more in you or do you believe?

I believe because I. And I've also, like, I've seen it with other athletes, too. Like, I look at, like, my peers, like a Stephanie Gilmore or even a Carissa Moore, and I'm like.

Like, you know, explain to the listener who might not Know them?

Stephanie Gilmore is the, she's the goat. Greatest female server of all time. Has eight world titles. Incredible. Also just such a great human. And Carissa Moore is also one of the goats. Five world titles, First Olympic gold medalists.

Which is your teammate. Competitor.

Yeah, exactly. You know, I look at them and I'm like, Stephanie Gilmore, she won the world title when she was like, she didn't win the world title for a few years and then she got the eighth world title. She was in her, in her 30s. And I look at that, I'm like, I'm 23. Like, I can have the best years ahead of me. And now with all like the science that's out with like how you can, you know, the training and like the nutrition, like you can stay healthy for so much longer, which is really cool.

Do you think you're gonna be the goat?

No. I don't know. We'll see.

Oh, you do.

I don't know.

I saw it. You don't want to say it?

No, I like it.

No, no, I like that.

Yes, I'm definitely. Look, I. I don't know. No, I think. Think what, Stephanie?

I, I think you. No, I saw it in this is what I'm saying. When we were in Tokyo. And the way you handled the complexity of those emotions. Your technical, your style of surfing is world leading. It's not just world class. You are pushing and so is Carissa for sure. Right. And take nothing away from Leki and like, she's a really powerful surfer as well. But, but the way that you are managing your internal life in an honest way is the, is the largest pillar to get the foundation right. And you're well on your path.

Thank you.

Yeah. And I don't think you're just going to take casually your physical fitness and your technical fitness and like, I don't think that you're going to take any of that stuff casually. The thing for you will be to make sure that you manage your energy properly so you don't lose the love affair with progression, with growth.

Totally. And I think that's the in at women's, women's sports in general, which is like so cool. Like, the progression in all women's sports is just skyrocketing, which is like so cool to see. But especially I think in surfing, it's the talent level is just like, it's going like this, like at such a fast pace. So I think keeping up with that is. It's definitely a really fun challenge, you know, and also like, I think with having now the World title and the gold medal. Like. Like, you have to find different ways to be motivated and stuff like that. So I think these younger girls coming up are something that's been really motivating for me. And even though they're, I guess, only a few years younger than me, it's still like, I'm like, I don't, you know, you still want to. You have that fire in you. They. They fire you up, which is pretty cool.

Competition's amazing.

It is. It's great.

Yeah. It really does keep us on our toes, on our edges, if you will. So wait, wait. I distracted us because I was asking about the goat. But how do you. You believe there's more in you, so it gives you some sort of more space to be able to be critical. I'm not a fan of critical self talk because it starts to niche away or chip away at the belief. So if you think about, you've got this crown jewel and each time you say something to yourself like, I suck, I'm stupid, I'm this. It's just, you take a tiny little bit off. I don't know if that's what you're doing or not. It feels like you're also replenishing that. But by the way, that you back yourself for sure. So how do you back yourself? How do you. How does it sound in your head when you are coaching yourself, you know, in an amazing way?

Well, I think for me, just doing the things that, like whether that's like training really hard or putting the hours in the water, like doing things, like a lot of practice, like, I feel like that, like, leads to confidence, like, just knowing.

What do you say to yourself?

Just saying, like, hey, I did everything I can to prepare for this heat right now, this event right now. Like, me, Caroline, like, I put everything I can into being my best. And that just like, how can you not be more confident when you feel that way? But if you, you know, if you're doing things that maybe aren't, you know, aren't making you the best version of yourself, like, that could cause some, like, doubt and insecurity and stuff like that. So I think, and that's like the only thing. There's not many things you can control in life and in the world, and I think that's something you can control is, like, how hard you work. And I think knowing that and like doing that breeds confidence for me at least.

Did you train at that kind of 10 out of 10 level going into the. Into both games?

Yeah, yeah, I did. I think the second One, I was a little bit more prepared just because the first one, I didn't know what to expect. Everything was new. Surfing was also never in the Olympics.

So, like, yeah, inaugural.

You know, I had no idea. Like, everything just felt like. I know. I feel like I was going in blindfolded. I was like, what do I have to expect here? And not that I didn't watch the Olympics before, but. But I was so fixated on surfing that, you know, it wasn't in it. So I didn't really pay too much attention to the Summer Olympics. And now I'm, like, the biggest fan ever. I think it's the coolest thing ever. But the second time, I was a bit more prepared, I'd say, and just mentally stronger, you know, like, just for everything I've gone through and just being more emotionally tapped in with myself.

What was it like for you to wear the USA jersey and to represent the flag and the people of the. The. The country?

Oh, it was incredible. Like, the. It's. It's kind of hard to, like, articulate the words to, like, for that feeling with anything in the Olympics. Like, it's so, like. I remember when I first qualified for the team, my parents are like, you don't realize, like, how big of a deal this is. And I didn't at all until I went. And then I was like, wow, this is, like, such a powerful, like, honorable feeling. Like, you just are, like, I'm representing my country. Like, this is the coolest thing ever. And surfing, it's such a small pool. Like, it's. It's not, like, a huge team, so it's, like, kind of very on, you know, so it's incredible. It's the coolest thing ever.

Can you take us to the. So you took fourth in Tokyo, which is, as you've established, and I 100% agree, it's the hardest position in the Olympics. You win third, you win gold, you lose gold. And get a second, though, when you lose gold, you get a second. When you lose the third, fourth match, you get nothing. You get the experience, which is meaningful in a lot of ways, but you don't get the kind of. That. The hardware, if you will. Okay, so when you were in Tahiti for. For the last Olympics, going into that match where. Or into that heat where you either go home with nothing or you advance to the metal round. Do you remember that heat?

Yeah, like, the. It's. I love that you bring this up, because that was, like. When people ask me, like, what was, like, the most, like, emotional heat for you like, that heat was more emotional for me than the gold medal because, like, I remember what it felt like to lose and it was like, not a good feeling at all. And I remember, like, when I was. I was in this heat with Joann Defay and like, if I, you know, if I made it, I was in the gold medal match, I didn't. And I remember I like, needed a seven and I got a seven, like, exactly the score, which is like really rare in surfing. And I won, like, on the highest count back. Like, my top score was higher than her. We were tied, but my highest score was higher than her. So it was like as close as it gets. It was really slow that day, the wave. So that, you know, sometimes it's pretty nerve wracking when you're going into a heat and the waves are very slow, you know, because you got to be very selective and very smart and you kind of have to have some luck on your side too. And I remember I just like started crying. Like, I was just crying because I was just like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm getting them no matter what. Like, I'm, you know, I'm not getting fourth.

I'm on the podium and.

Yeah, I'm on the podium. You know what I mean? Like, and. And then after that, we had like six lay days until the final day. But I remember that was like a huge, huge moment for me. Super emotional moment for me.

I'm more interested in what it was like on the boat or the beach. It's a boat in Tahiti. But pre surf, how did you manage your pre surf mindset and emotions going into a thing that the last time you were in that situation was traumatic for you?

I feel like I was pretty, like when I was there, I felt like I had great equipment, like, I was around. We had a great team again. And like you said in Tokyo, like, it was cool. Even though it was a bummer. It was Covid. Like, it was cool in a way because we were all like kind of forced to be together and Tahiti was like, kind of like that too, because it's. You're on an island. So like, we had our family staying and stuff, but like, most of the time we were all together. So I think just, you know, we had John John and Griffin Colapinto is on the team. He's like a good friend of mine. And then Carissa again, which was really cool. Katie Simmers is also a good friend of mine. Like, like, we just had a great, like, great team. We were all pushing each Other in a very healthy way, like going against each other, but also like pushing each other, which was really cool. And I felt pretty present. Like, surprisingly, I felt pretty present and just very, like, grateful to be there. And I wouldn't say as. As fearful, you know, I think I was just kind of like, whatever happens, happens, you know? But I do know I was like, putting in. In the work, like, leading up to all those, like, free serves and stuff, which again, kind of gave me a lot of confidence.

So you've given three kind of variables there. As you were facing down a moment that the last time you faced it, you came on the short side of the outcome that you wanted, but you gained a lot of experience. Call it small T trauma. Right. Is that fair to say?

Yes, for sure.

Yeah. And then so in that when you're repeating a similar type scenario, you go to gratitude, you go to acknowledging the work that you put in it. And what was the third thing that you said? I had it in my head.

Yeah. Just being around good. I think I said, like, good equipment, but also like being around good people and surfing. I don't know, I felt like I was in a good rhythm with surfing.

Oh, you said present.

Yeah, being present.

Being present. Okay. So that. That's kind of your, let's call it I don't know equation. If I'm present and if I'm grateful, if I'm around good people and I'm backing myself that I've put in the work.

Yeah.

And then there was this thing of trust, like, whatever happens, like, I've done my very best.

Totally.

Is that right?

Yeah.

So there's your. There's a bit of your formula for success under pressure.

Yeah. And like, sometimes it changes. I don't know. Like sometimes I've also gone into competing and like, not feeling that great and like, kind of doubting myself. And it works out too. Like, that's the crazy thing about, like, competing. And that's sometimes where your talent kind of kind of overtake your emotions sometimes.

By the way, that's what most people do.

Yeah.

They over index on physical and technical and under index on mental. And their physical technical just kind of show up in a way that is not as good as they could be, but it's good enough for that moment. But it doesn't. It's like an empty meal. It doesn't feel great. It's like relief as opposed to like, I really brought my stuff, like.

Totally.

Yeah. So. But. Okay, two more questions here. How do you train gratitude and how.

Do you train being Present, present being present. That's something I've had to really work on for sure. I think that's it's hard because like we're always looking forward to a date. Like, I'm always like, okay, like I'm here right now, but like in two weeks I got this event and I'm booking this flight and like that, you know, you're just constantly looking ahead. And I think athletes are very future oriented, which is great. But also like, I think it is important to be present. I think that's where having a very healthy mindset, like not having for me, like I was telling you before, but like a lot of times when I talk to a psych, like a therapist, it's like not much about surfing. It's all about like my personal life. And I feel like for me, when my personal life is in check, surfing, a lot of things flow. Like it just. Everything feels so much easier. Like it's never easy, but it feels a lot easier. So I think for me, when, when I'm good up here and like I'm just happy with everything and not everything's going to be perfect, you know, but that's when I feel the most present for sure.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah. I think a lot of people can probably relate to that.

I appreciate the simplicity and how you're saying it.

Yeah, it's. I mean, you know, I'm definitely not like, I have so much to work on. Like I'm. But I'm figuring it out.

Me too. Yeah.

But I kind of am starting to understand some things, which has been really fun. And then gratitude, I think just like being all around the world and like seeing different parts of the world has been. I'm like, wow, like we're really lucky to live lives. We do. And I think just being raised the right way too, like how my, my, the outlook of life that my family's kind of taught me has been really good and positive. So yeah, those two things I think.

Reference points having really interesting, compelling, just reference points in life is part of a high priority performance approach. So as many reference points as you can gather, whether it's, you know, in sport or outside of sport, they become almost these guideposts about like, oh, wait, I've seen or smelt or I've experienced something close to that or like, wow, listen, this is really hard, but it's not like what I saw over there. Reference points is a really important part of living a great life.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So thank you for letting me understand kind of how your psychology works. For you to navigate this confusing world. And it's not lost on me the investment you've made in your inner life to be able to change kind of the way that other people see what's possible. You are a beacon for so many. And so thank you for the friendship over the years and thank you for being an inspiration to so many. And this has been awesome.

Awesome. Thank you so much. It's been super fun. Love it.

Wait, before we go, can. Can you give us a little treat? Can you share the metal with us? Of course, yeah.

Show and tell.

Yeah. Awesome.

I like. I almost like the back of it better because it's like it. It's like Paris on it, which is cool. But. Yeah.

Yeah, look at that.

Can hold it.

Look at that.

Cool. I like this part. And in the middle of it, that's the Eiffel Tower, as you know.

Yeah.

Just really cool.

This was the. The only games that they pair snuck in their icon on the back, which. So it's. The front is always different and the back is always the same. And this, okay, this back, for all the games, the back is the same except for this one. They snuck in the Eiffel Tower.

Wow.

Yeah. Which is really cool. And then this is a piece of the Eiffel.

Eiffel Tower. Yeah.

Right.

The Eiffel. It was so cool to see, like, it light up. Every, like 30 minutes it lit up or something had the rings on it. It's the coolest thing ever.

Caroline, thank you so much for spending time with us today.

Thanks for having me.

Next time on Finding Mastery. We're going back to the vault with Dr. Robert Waldinger, psychiatrist, Zen teacher, and director of the longest study on human happiness ever conducted at Harvard. In this conversation, Dr. Waldinger and Dr. Gervais explored what truly makes life meaningful and revealed a single factor proven to increase happiness, health, and even longevity. Quick hint. It's not diet and it's not exercise. Join us Wednesday, November 26th at 9am Pacific only on Finding Mastery. All right, thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday hunch over to finding mastery.com to sign up. This show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously and the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals@findingmastery.com sponsors and remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional, so seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.