Scaling Flow: What Google and Summit Know About High-Speed Teams

I'm really excited about this conversation. Jody, Ivy, welcome to the alliance. You're in a room with really sort of badass creative leaders, people doing really amazing stuff in the world and brought you guys together because you're really two of my favorite creative leaders and two of the absolute smartest people in this space ever in the history of time. So I thought we should have a little bit of a conversation. I have a handful of questions that I was going to open up to the group and for their questions. Just to remind everybody we're recording this, it's going to end up on our podcast because you don't often get Ivy and Jody in the same room together and you have to take advantage of it. And so we're taking full advantage and I am accepting bribes. Just for future reference, let me give you some bios so you guys know who you're in the room with. Ivy Ross is the vice president of design for hardware at Google for the past year. Six years. This is crazy. You guys have launched 50 products.

That's an old resume. It's been 11.

Like how many you. I've got 240 global design awards, so I don't know what the current total is right now. That's just freaky. She changed Google's look and feel. She has led design before Google, Calvin Klein, Swatch coach, Mattel Bausch. What do you. Okay, Gap. And she is number nine on Fast Company's list of the 100 most creative people in business. And her really cool jewelry is in permanent connections at about 12 different international museums, unless that's gone up. And Jodi is an artist, a systems thinker, a serial entrepreneur. She's done everything from build watermelon water, which was like a really a category defining environmentally minded beverage brand and one of the first to Neuropraxis, which is a platform for spinal cord injury. She's the CEO of Summit. Is that. Are you still.

Until next Monday.

Okay, until next Monday. She is the CEO of Summit.

Which.

Is a legendary community of creators, builders, and change agents that I've been involved in for a while, that Ivy's been involved in for a while. And Jodi works at the intersection of wellness, innovation, and impact. And she's also one of my best friends and Ivy's also one of my favorite people in the world. So I think this should be a good conversation. But I want to start with a question that the most basic question that I've never asked. How did you guys meet? Is this a bad question?

Go ahead, tell it.

Do you Remember who introduced us?

Well, Jeff introduced us, but we realized we had met years ago. In New York?

No, in Gap headquarters.

It was in Gap headquarters, really.

So I don't know if I know how we got together, but when Jeff.

Rosenthal did it, which is how everybody gets together.

No, no, he didn't.

Yeah, we go back like, like probably 15 years earlier. So in 2001, I started an experience design firm called O2. And we were like the first company that was doing experience design. And somehow I was like traveling the world talking about how every big business needed this like experiential line item. And I'd be in the rooms with everyone from Toyota and Lexus to Ford and Coca Cola, and I got to Gap, and that's where we originally met. What role were you in at Gap at that time?

I held two. I was probably the chief marketing officer of Gap at that time. Yeah. And you were very ahead of your time. I mean, experience is now the buzzword, but. Or has been for a few years. But yeah. When Jeff reintroduced us, when Jody came on to Summit, we looked at each other and said, wait a minute, we know each other. And so this was a re. Meeting that happened.

Yeah. Ivy and I have like a couple random touch points in between where our lives have like intersected. So we're just on like a cosmic journey of surrender.

That was before you guys were in prison in Costa Rica, right?

Or after.

Yeah, but like, listen, together we escaped. Escaped.

Yeah. That's the important, that's the key point, is these two minds to get us.

By the way, I have to say, if I go missing in a foreign country, Jody is the person to call just for everybody, just trying to know there might be somebody else. But Jody's the first call, as far as I could tell. Just besides the point, she does other things.

I got her.

So here's my, here's my next question. It's something we, we've been talking a lot about in the past month here at the alliance, which is you guys have both really creative and really high speed teams and you've led them in places they don't actually want to go. Sometimes. I've seen that. So what is the secret? How, what do you guys think it is? What do you, how do you approach that, Ivy? How do you approach it, Jody? I, I've tried drugging my team. That's effective, but only up to a point.

Yeah, totally. There's consent involved.

Yeah. I, for me, it's establishing trust. I think creativity comes from trust and freedom. And you know, I'll speak about this from being in the corporate world, building the trust first is absolutely super important because, you know, and you know this, the brain, it's red, yellow, green, Trauma, flight or fight or the green zone, which is the only place where you can really create from, to be creative from. So most people in companies walk around in the fight or flight zone, I maintain. And so the idea is how to keep people in that green zone. And for me, that's establishing trust and that comes.

What does that mean, Ivy? Yeah, what does that mean? Like, how do you go about establishing trust?

So we have a lot of experiences together. I make sure I take the team for inspiration trips.

We.

I brought in improv artists to teach us how to build on each other's ideas, not judge them, you know, so it's trusting that you can say what you need to say. And this is a safe environment in terms of. Because that's how great ideas happen, is someone says something interesting, silly, interesting, smart. Keep building on it. It goes around in a certain kind of spiral, and then all of a sudden it's like, that's it, that's what we should do. Or that's. That's the design. And it really comes from being on the same wavelength to a certain extent. So how you get people on the same wavelength is also a cultural thing of what. What do you experience together culturally to get people on the same wavelength? I think you know the story, Steven, that 15 years ago, because I studied sound, I literally used to do it mechanically by finding the fundamental frequency at 12, at which 12 people resonated, would embed that frequency in music in octaves up and down and play it in the background in the studio as we created which the concept of entrainment, their brains, after 45 minutes, like cuckoo clocks, would be at that same level. And then the ideas really flowed. But I'm going off.

You used voodoo. You used voodoo. This is like trust through voodoo. This is the secret to highspeed teams is sublival advertising. There's a whole future here.

Pure science. But no, I think it's a cultural. I think it's really a cultural thing. Like how do you get people to trust each other, want to not judge, but co create, understand each other's gifts and talents. And that sounds easier than it is. But it's through a series of little actions. What we do together, the people I bring in to inspire them, the conversations we have after the events that we hold, it's a constant weaving together. Yeah, not easy. Good question.

Jodi, over to you.

So the Same, but the difference is that Ivy's a better leader than I am and I'm better at being in the mosh pit. No, no, for real, like, I am really good at creating something from zero to something. I'm like, amazing at a white slate. I am great in a turnaround. Like, you give me a business with a problem and I will gut it and I will solve it. And I have to create that trust through over communication. But more than that, because I'm such a, like, action, speak louder than words person, I am in it from the very center. And so when I say Ivy, like, I see you as a better, like, sustainable leader than me. I'm really good at, like, boiling the ocean. I am great at bringing everyone together and being the glue and like, truly being the symphony conductor. But there's a point in time where, like, the strings and percussion and vocals need to be able to operate on their own. And that's where I kind of exit the scene, you know, Like, I'm really good when I'm up there and I'm in every beat with everybody. But it's very much the same psychology, you know, creating an environment where everybody really trusts. And in the situations where I'm in where things are, like, usually a little bit more precarious because either they're being invented and we have to figure something out or prove ourselves, or we have to fix something that's in a triage, it's very much, you know, creating an environment where people feel safe and inspired and excited and have to kind of like suspend and surrender a bit. And I think that the way that that scales at any creative endeavor, project or business is the idea of being able to go super micro and super macro and have enough strategic intelligence and have enough, like, emotional intelligence to storytell in a way that people understand what the others are all doing and how their part connects to the whole so that when they wake up in the morning, they know that, like, what they have to do, but more about how their contribution is impacting the entire organism or ecosystem, depending on what it is. And I think that there is a, like, a finesse in that that is more about, like, creating space to feel something and really consider how people process information and learn and. And like, get activated.

Totally, totally agree with what you said, Jodi. And the other thing, because we do that too, is the other thing we do is we rehearse the future to step into the present. What I mean by that, as a team, is fast forward and have a vision for the future and then back out and say, if we want to go there, what do we have to do together each year to get there? That brings us together as well. That United States vision of, of making magic together. I mean, what I love most is making magic, which is taking something that doesn't exist and manifesting it. But how you do it together is an art, you know, versus how you do it individually.

I love that concept so much. Rehearsing the future.

There's a really cool. So there's that we, we used to do that at Singularity University. Robert Suarez, who came out of ideo, brought retro casting out of ideo, Singular. So if you want a big change in the world in 2035, right. We want clean, you know, climate, no climate change by 2035, what happens? 34, 33, 32 and walking all the way back. One of the reasons neurobiologically it works so well is. This is funny, but when we think about our future selves, the brain treats the future you as the other. It doesn't treat it as you. Which is why it's really hard to stay on a diet because you're dieting for the future you who's going to be skinny, but you're the. The you you are now is hungry, right? And it's why people don't get prostate exams at all. Like a lot stay for the retirement. It's the same mechanism. Rehearsing the future sounds like a really awesome way to do this question because I. Do you think I love everything you've been saying around storytelling and rehearsing the future. Do you think this is the secret to speed with teams or unity with teams? By the way, guys, hold up your hands if you have questions. We can start hearing from you guys as well, please.

I think both, because I think if you don't know where you're headed, you can't move quickly to that place. And if you don't know where you're headed. And again, I remember, you know, what was it that company, the 10 year forecast that doesn't exist anymore because things are so dynamic. But I think what you need to do is have a hypothesis of where things are going. Remember what are the elements that went into that hypothesis? So then as the world turns and gets closer, you can tweak your hypothesis if the world changes. But to not have. Because some people go, oh, you can't even do that today. It's so dynamic. It is definitely more difficult and there. But I do think you have to put a stake in the ground based on, like I said, your Hypothesis, keep track of that so that you can watch. It's like a roadmap. It's like a map. And you can off road if you have to, based on the world shape shifting a little bit, but you have to have something as a guidepost and then watch it carefully. But I think it does both. I think it makes you move quicker and move together.

Yeah, What I was gonna say is like, everything's fast now, but it's the center point of agility and so the, the ability to have that trust. It's like what's the, the beginning chapter of Stealing Fire where you talk about the Navy seals and their ability to pivot. Right. What's it, what, how do they, what.

Do they call group flow? Group flow, just. Yeah, I mean the collective intuition, group flow, distributed intelligence, the cognition, like when that trust happens.

It's the key to being able to be agile in, you know, every moment, every hour, every project. Right. So everything's fast. It's more like, how do we create trust so that when we actually have to use that speed and catch up or slow down, that everybody's with us?

The will tell you it's because they have brutal after action meetings after everything. They have a very, very trend like because their lives are on the line. So there's a level of transparency in everything they do. And they have really, really, really complicated, detailed after action meetings where they go over everything that went right wrong, how to fix it, et cetera, et cetera, which really seems to contribute. All right, I see a bunch of hands up, no particular order. Jim, let's hear from you. By the way, this is Jim Crow. He, he is charged that Vanderbilt, he's charged with building the hundred vaccines for the 100 next pandemics just because he's not doing anything interesting in the world.

Wow. Okay.

So, yeah, thanks for letting me out. So I mentioned the idea of toggling between visioning and then executing and an execution process. You really, really focused, stay on track, not be dreaming about stuff, but get stuff done. But then if you're off track, toggling. So how do you manage individually and as a team, toggling back and forth while you're executing? You know, is it all or none, or is it a mixture of those two things?

So, I mean, I'll start. But you know, we have a product development process and it allows for like playing in the sandbox in the beginning and then kind of the gun goes off and there's a, a real rigid schedule of execution with checkpoints along the way. So I think it is about. There's a time for everything. It's like exercising a muscle, and it is having that time in the beginning, and then you're off and running once everyone's aligned. But I do think there is something to be said about throughout. You have to have rigor and then time to daydream. You know, it's like almost exercising your brain. If you go rigger, rigor, rigor, Riga, rigger, you won't be bringing some creativity along the way on the process. So I do believe when I say the gun goes off and there's a product development process, it's imperative that during that process, you. I think you give people. And we. It's not like we block it out on their calendars, but totally understand. You know, it's like getting into the flow state. I mean, people having the time to. Even during that rigorous process, to go into the flow state. But as it relates to future planning. Yeah. Once you have that North Star, you agree on it, and then we get together periodically to sanity check. Are we right? You know, what. What elements have occurred since we last talked that may have us tweak where we're going? But I. I think it's a great question, and, yeah, I think I answered it, at least for me.

So as the entrepreneur, that all sounds very lux. I. I feel like you have more.

Fun as the entrepreneur. So it's just.

Yeah. And that. The whole fight or flight thing, you know, we really thrive there. I think that it's like I'm. I'm seeing this amazing balance of. Of our two worlds. And you guys should know Ivy and I are very close, and we understand one another in a way that I don't. There's like, there's something about how we've always connected that very few people understand the world we live in. And we come from design thinking roots that very few people share, so we have this thing in common. I've never realized how different our worlds are until this conversation. But I think that on the other side of it, where I'm like a professional fixer, right. Where it's like 0 to 30 million or a company at like 200 million that needs a complete, you know, like, pull it apart, reassemble it so that it can thrive for the future, there's this, like, you get on the train, and the train speeds up and it never slows down. And so I think it's almost the opposite. It's like we're constantly in triage and fixing, and one of the things that's really important for me is that I always try to take time, because time, everything, you know, operates on like the most sacred currency of time. Every week or every two weeks, depending on where a project or an endeavor is in its timeline, and like, pause and zoom out and that micro macro takes over. It's like you live in the micro in an entrepreneurial universe, but to zoom out and stop and like, get a gut check on where everybody is. I always have to be 20 steps ahead, figure out what they need to know, see if anyone has already identified some of the problems that I have to already see coming, and in some instances, be a director and just direct change. In other instances, hear some other concerns and ideas and really be the person that's like, okay, how do we nurture that and how real are the concerns? And like, how do we fix this in a way that doesn't derail? And I think that that's one of the trickiest parts, especially with like, the speed and how quickly things are changing in the world of, you know, the invention part. Not, not necessarily running the thing and evolving the thing. That's been for a while, but when you're creating something that's never existed before.

Well.

I just say one more thing. You touched on something we've been talking to this group for weeks about. Should leaders sort of get ahead of the group and make decisions, you know, in the moments and take the group there, or should we have group intelligence and let leaders come up and down from the group? So you're describing a little more directive, like 20 steps ahead, pause out and sort of trim it for the group. Whereas I think other people on the call said, well, sometimes people in the group rise to be the leader and we, we defer to that. When the project is at that, that level.

I think it's so specific, it's sort of like, I don't believe that any one medical hack is right for any person. It depends on where that person is with their genetics and in a specific moment in time, with their conditions in the ecosystem that they're in. And I think the same thing for a project or an invention or a company. It all depends on the site specificity of that endeavor. And so I think that the things I started this conversation by telling you, I'm not the best leader. I'm a really good fixer and I can bring everybody along for the ride and they'll have the time of their life and they'll learn and they'll work hard and they'll laugh lot. But like, once it's all working. I'm like, mouth.

Go ahead. Sorry.

No, you're good.

I was gonna say, having been in these kind of leadership roles for like 45 years, I hate to say it, it's been interesting to watch the change. It used to be that as a leader you had a leadership style. And I think now as a leader, it's about learning how to tune in to what you know, Tune in and maybe you have your own vision of where you think things should be going. But it's holding the space and having that. But being willing to change your mind based on the group intelligence and then kind of shape shifting it a bit. So it's. It's a whole new set of skills. I believe that is necessary. Where it becomes a both end. Like have be out. For me, at least it's be out in front. Have a perspective. Also feel the energy of the group and know who your players are and be will and deeply listen. Deeply listen and be willing to change your mind as things arise. And yeah, because I think we've gone from. There's just so much. It's important to listen to everyone because diversity equals creativity. So it's a. It's a different mindset than I was in 25 years ago. Leading.

Let me take some more questions. Whit, see you with your hand up for a while. And then Stephanie and then Blair.

Yeah, thanks so much for being here. And I guess what I wanted to share is for the last few years I've been working on collaboration as a management discipline within larger organizations. And I think both of you have talked around ultimately where some of the pillars that we've found as we're trying to do this in a more rigorous way. And it's essentially clarity, intentionality and discipline. And clarity is like it is always easier to do individual work than shared work. Like there's a. There's a tax, there's a cost every time you work with somebody else. And so there has to be a compelling reason why you have to work with others that you can't do it yourself. Right. Whether that's across organizations or with teams. But even within shared work, most of the work is still done by individuals. It's individual work in a shared environment versus truly shared co created work. And differentiating between those becomes critical to maintaining speed in those environments. And then intentionality pillars, really the norms. How do we act with each other? And that could be the year at yes ends and you're building on each other. It could be simple things like response times and like how do we resolve conflicts and things that could otherwise passively undermine the ability to work together. And then the discipline is, really does, is could be as small as, like, how do we make decisions so that momentum can keep going. And in collaborative environments, often decision making is ill defined. And so then everything escalates up to some decision maker who may not be in the loop and it disempowers the team. And then we as part of discipline also have the assess and evolve as an explicit step to make sure that a zombie collaboration doesn't just march forward because somebody thought it was a good idea at some point, but it's lost its value, but it's continuing to churn and eat time because we haven't stepped back. So it's just, it was really interesting hearing you both talk from the Google perspective and the entrepreneurial perspective. I think you touched on a lot of those similar areas. And we've been trying to think about it as like a management discipline that's often not applied to a buzzword that people like to use. Collaboration, teamwork, group work. But I think there's actually a discipline under it.

Yeah, no, that's real.

I like zombie teams, by the way. I'm gonna steal that zombie team.

You know, when you talk about collaboration, I once did this experiment where we had a 12 week design, a cycle to get something done and usually it would be like, okay, you, you, you, your team, go collaborate, make it happen. Versus of the twelve weeks, I spent the first two weeks not expecting any outcome but getting to know each other and, you know, and, and connecting and getting all the ego stuff out of the way and you know, because I think sometimes it's like a dysfunctional family coming together that hasn't done their work. And so we would do things together, just learn who each other was, what our gifts and talents were, get comfortable with it. And then the other 10 weeks and some people were super nervous. It's like, what do you mean this is due in 12 weeks. We haven't produced anything yet. I know, I know. This is an experiment. I maintain that we're going to spend the two weeks doing this and then the 10 weeks actually doing the process. And I bet you the results are better at the end and we've had more fun and less stressed. And sure enough, this was when I was at Mattel Toys and the toys that we developed under that won parenting awards, no joke. Because the vibration in which you develop something I think the consumer could feel. And it was, we did it under a more coherent. We were more coherent because we spent the Time up front. So it's just a different way of working. And, you know, it was earth shattering because it's like, what do you mean we're not going to do anything? No productivity for two weeks.

As I'm like, hearing you tell these stories, Ivy, I'm like, going back to this whole concept of, like, luxury. Like the, like, I have built my career having to modulate creative execution and ideation around cash flow. And it's like, it's. I see in this discussion how much, how stunting that can be to like, truly to the collaboration of a team. Like, it's put me in a position where I'm constantly, like, giving people little moments of creativity and collaboration that are constantly interrupted by constraints of time and money. And I'm sure that, you know, all of us are doing projects where that's the truth because we never have enough time and it's always connected to resources. And so I think in hearing what you're saying, like, if there's a way to plan the all of the resources, time, money, energy, etc. Where that space exists, where there's like, flexibility and flow and boredom, for lack of a better word, just because it's so hard to get to boredom, like, that is where. That's, like, where the magic happens. I haven't gotten to have that in so long because I'm always like, you know, up until this moment, I've had, you know, so much kind of triage and working within the constraints of it, which makes me really good at this kind of niche leadership. And I'm sure there's lots of things you guys can all connect to where it's like, you're up against the clock. You only have this many dollars left, right? Like, you have to make quick, tactical decisions. Everyone gets like a minute to kind of contribute and then you got to like, pivot and go. And sometimes you just have to point them in the right direction. But I see in how you're talking about, you know, the ability to lead and listen and give your teams a space to really establish, like that shared, strategic, creative, nurturing and like that Nucleus, like, that's where the power is.

Yeah, no, you're right. It's different because I have my own company in my 20s. I totally get what you're saying. And it is two different problems to solve, right? Design is about solving problems. Two different problems to solve. And I sit on boards of startups, so I know exactly. What you mean about it is you're making decisions based on cash flow. Believe me, here at Google, it's rigorous in terms of budgeting and time constraints change. But you're absolutely right, it's very different than what you're held have to do on a day to day basis.

But fundamentally, question of all three of you for a second, I want to jump in. Oh, fundamentally, you finished, Jodi. And then I'll jump, I'll go, Well.

I was just gonna say just to tie it in a bow, fundamentally, because we both come from a world of design thinking, it's actually very similar. Similar. It's just the style changes.

Yes, yes.

We identify like what we're solving, who it's for, what the expression of that solution is, what it appeals to. And we use communication and emotional intelligence and you know, the psychology of how the individuals on one consistent team, what makes them tick to create this, you know, this organism that operates together to solve the problem. And so I think the, the connection points are actually really interesting because then the specificity per project, person and company becomes applicable.

Yeah, you're right. The principles are the same.

Here's my quick question. And when I just wonder if this is in your framework at all. I know sort of how we do it at the players collective and how I do it. How do you guys manage cognitive bandwidth on your teams? How do you keep your team. Oh, you keep yourself from overloading your teams.

Good.

You mean overloading with too much responsibility.

I mean work. Yeah. No, working memory holds three or four items and then most people tap out, especially if you're dealing with creatives. So overloading people with too much information. One of the things I've also noticed with creatives is you give them 10 things to do, they hear the first three and the next seven never get done because they never, they, they didn't even hear those things. They were thinking about how to solve the first three. You overloaded their cognitive battle. Now they're not, they're not, not even in the, in the room with you.

So one way we, we address that is too often in shared work situations, everybody feels like they have to work on everything that the team is doing and that leads to overload. Right. And, and so if you can actually separate, we're collectively trying to accomplish this. And here are the individual pieces of work that need to get done and then those can get allocated out to your creatives to go take ownership of and take them 80% of the way and then come back for feedback from others as opposed to being caught in this. Like every incremental step I take, I have to get feedback from the group or I have to be with group members. You allow them to run on what they're passionate about and have the true differentiated ability to bring forward. And then you, as a leader, you have to figure out how do we bring the pieces back together. And that can be sequential coordination. You do yours first, then I do mine. It can be pooled. We all do our own things and we're going to figure out a mechanism to bring those back together. Or it can be truly reciprocal, where you're going to work on it for a little while, then you're going to get feedback for somebody else. But that's part of the discipline is how do we bring the individual pieces back together. But the real magic of how do you not overload people is don't make everything shared work, which shared time is extremely precious. Allow people to process information outside of shared time, use shared time for the work that can only be done together, and then be clear about what work can be done by individuals. Allocate that out and empower them to take it forward as you know, with their own creativity and their own mastery and their ownership of it, and then bring that back to the group, which.

Really goes to knowing your instruments really well, because I think it's not a one size fits all. I have like eight different groups that each have leaders and they each would answer that question slightly differently. And it's really paying attention to when someone on their team is overloaded or who really thrives on owning a lot and who thrives on being really focused and then having to fill the gaps. And it's like I have eight different mini companies running that each have a slight nuance. So I think it's, like I said, the biggest difference to me, it's like we've gone away from the industrial revolution. We're at the assembly line. One way to do things to absolutely customizing. But it starts with knowing who you have on your team and how they. How they work best to get. And then you as the orchestra conductor, it's. You agree on what symphony you're going to play and how you write that piece of music may vary.

So I of course agree with what both of you are saying. And I think one other layer is I like to give everybody a sense of freedom over their time in where work and life intersect. So a lot of people on my teams, like swim for two hours in the middle of the day or take DJ classes at a certain time on, you know, a couple days a week, or coach football three hours every day because it's important to them. And having the freedom to, like, architect their lives inside and outside of work and seeing how, like, the rest of the team accommodates it. Everyone ends up being so happy. They feel like they have control over what they're doing. We intrinsically work hard in the businesses that I have been in the last 20 years. And it just like, makes everybody feel more appreciative for one another and show up to the party together in this moments of collaboration and in the place where they're bringing their work to it with a different level of ownership. And I think that that's probably like one of the single most effective things in. In our businesses. And it can be inconvenient sometimes. Like, there's moments where we can't have conference calls, you know, but. But it yields really happy humans.

I have heard you bitch about the dj, the DJ lessons. I was in the room for that. And I know who you're talking about. And they're going to be very good. We're going to be very well rewarded in the end for this. All right, let me jump to Stephanie. You better even had your hand up for a while. Hello.

Yeah. This is wonderful. I love this. My main question is around, because you guys are both in that design thinking and as creative leaders, how do you. How do you work with a team when you need to translate, you know, something that's more of like a felt sense or like, and more like intuitive knowing of, like, this is where I think we should go. How do you translate that into something that people can cognitively understand? And the second piece of that is how much intention goes into maybe fostering that skill development within a team so that more and more people are able to be like, oh, there's this felt sense of this. And that can be just as important as like, oh, these numbers make sense in my brain.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I'm laughing because this is the kind of blues story we talked about a month ago, right?

Yeah, yeah, Great question. You know, I'm at Google, right, where data is super celebrated, yet, you know, design is partly intuitive.

So.

And I think it's. And both, once again. So the way I've done that is. And I think you have to talk out loud when you have an intuitional, an intuitive hit, which we know comes from, I believe, you know, 95% of what we take in goes into our subconscious. So when we get that hit from the gut, it's coming from more data than our conscious mind holds. And that was one of my comebacks when someone challenged me early on my career at Google. It was like, well, where's the data to support that? And I said, it's right here in my stomach. That comes from 95% more data than your cognitive mind. Looking at the data, I usually, to my team especially, will speak out loud when I have that idea, that intuitive hit. Or I say, I think this is where we need to go toward. Or I will always talk about why. Like, what patterns am I seeing in the field? Or, like, try to articulate how my mind has knitted that together to show them that it's not just randomized. It's actually coming from all of this information that all of a sudden has connected for me. And so I bring them kind of along with me as a model for how to do that. And that's okay to do that and be able to tell me why you feel that way, if you have a feeling, you know, because I've studied a bit about neuro aesthetics, and it's a big thing for me. We even started things with our product. As to asking consumers, when they first see a phone or a watch on a table, how do they feel about it? Like, what. What is the initial hit they're getting, like, beyond. What does it do? It's because I think. I think things are emotional. And so really, you know, so kind of the whole aesthetic and what we're doing is based on that idea that it is. Everything is function and emotional. So this is highly relevant to it. So I think we're all those of us that work on this, we're all very much interested in how things feel and the marriage of data and intuition.

I mean, everybody in the alliance who was on our. Our reading list for the class. Your book with Susan, your Brain on art, is on our reading list.

Oh, really? Well, thank you.

Yeah, a bunch of. A bunch of them. I've read your book and know your work on narrow aesthetics. Can I tell the story behind that 95 to 5%? Because it's funny. Was it that you talking to Larry and Sergey about the first. The color of the first phone?

Oh, yeah. Not to Larry and Sergey, but to others. You have the example of when I was challenged on why we were picking a certain color. And then I did give the explanation of the fact that when I get that intuitive hit or my team, you know, it comes from this 95% more data than their cognitive minds. And then sure enough, about three weeks later, the marketing, it was this particular shade of, like, blue. And then three weeks later, on the Academy Awards red carpet, all the women were wearing gowns of that color. And so, you know, I got pings that go, oh, my God. How did you guys know? Yeah. And then they never. They never challenged us again. No.

And we lived happily ever after. Hansel and Gretel are fine, right, Blair, I saw your hand up earlier.

No, just voraciously taking notes, and this is incredible. No questions right now.

Oh.

Oh, cool.

Sorry.

No question.

Then I get to ask a question off your intuition question I want to ask both of you, and I think I may know the answer, but I'm guessing, do you think you get most of your intuitions? Both of you are really good at spotting cultural signals well ahead of the mainstream and seeing around corners. And, you know, that's something I sort of developed a nose for in my early years as journalists, like, reporting on the cutting edge. It was always like, I had a. It was really like, where's the actual edge and where's the insanity? Right? Like, if you're doing science reporting, like, there's. There's an edge of sanity, and you get one part right. And that seems, in my. You know, in art and music, like, there's that same sort of barrier. So do you. Are you about, like, best ideas emerge out of chaos or the. From the unexpected, or is it seeing a pattern that other people can't see? Or is it both? There's a stupid question, and it's something else entirely.

This is. It's such a tricky question, because I feel like it's also really specific to the problem that's being solved in the context of the moment. I mean, I think that it's both. I think that it likely often starts with pattern recognition and opportunity recognition, and then the nuances of how it evolves comes out of chaos. Or maybe a more appetizing word would be, you know, navigating constraints, which can sort of be the same depending on the environment. But, like, as you, you know, identify an opportunity and you go into it, it's never going to end. When. When you're doing what is it? Rehearsing the future. The way that you're anticipating where the future is going to be leads you on the trail. But what you discover on the trail is going to ebb and flow. So I think it's both and probably in a similar order.

Yeah. You know, I started my career in fashion, and I was lucky enough in the 80s, I think, to work for Calvin Klein, and he used to take his favorite designers to Studio 54, where we danced till our feet bled. But in that, he was teaching us how to do. How to look at everything and see everything in the culture of what was going on. And it's interesting. I think we're a byproduct of. I think we're a blank canvas and our experience in life starts to lay down some of the colors on the canvas. And so when I look back, that early training of him showing me how he takes in everything through his eyes.

And would you show that to you? I be like, what is that? What does that mean? Or you just. Here, we're at Studio 54. Look at all the cool people. Or did he actually do things?

No, we'd go back to the studio the next morning and talk about. It's almost like popcorn. And I. I've done this at times with my people. Like, what'd you see? What'd you hear? Like what? Like. And then it is. It's like Jungian. I studied Jungian psychology. It's like reading patterns in the field. It's like putting all those. Once I've created some new, innovative ways of working with people through this thing, Project Platypus. But it's like, no thinky, just throw up. What did you observe? What did you feel? What did you see? And just list these words and then draw a line through the consistency. And it's like, okay, we need to keep a watch on these four emerging patterns. And so I think I walk around in the world like that, and I think we all have antennas up, and I think especially highly creative people. And you're constantly taking in information that you don't even realize. That's why I think the gut is so important, because you can't possibly retain all of that. But I am. People say I'm such a optimistic, positive person. I think it's because I am so engaged in life because there's. I'm so interested in so many things because I know that those different things inform me. It's art, it's technology, it's humanity, it's psychology, it's science. And for me, they all have. I begin to start to see the connective tissue, but I think it's just a way of walking in the world. And then it's. To Jody's point, it's trust drawing on in that moment, depending on the situation. I don't even understand how it happens. But there's a different. Well, I think the right and left half of your brain comes together and you get this aha moment again. I know when I experimented back in the Mattel days with Project platypus, I literally 30 years ago, was using binaural beats with my designers through headphones to bring the right and left half of their brains together, more often exercise that muscle so that they would get those aha moments. But, you know, I think it's being alive and being. And that's why I love the sensorial nature of life, because if you pay attention to all that, you're just taking in. I. I think I always say pay attention to what gets your attention. And I guess that's the way I program myself from early training is. And then you get trust. It's like, I don't know why, but I read this book, and there was three words there that make me want to go, you know, like Alice through the rabbit hole. And so I trust that intuition. And sure enough, years later, having read that gave me the. The information I needed to put a concept together. So I would say, yeah, walking in the world, taking in information, and then trusting, paying attention to what gets your attention and following it.

And Ivy, I think, like, when I'm hearing you talk about this, whether it's a field trip to Studio 54 or your inspiration tours that you do for your team, I think you and I both share a trust in kind of like, there's like, a spirituality to how I conduct business that I know we have in common. This is the part where Steven rolls his eyes at me, you guys. But there's, like, you know, as in the leadership role, we really trust our own intuition, and we're not asking others to validate it. And I think that a lot of people in leadership roles have to go through their own process. There's different personality types, but at the point where you figure out the language with the environment around us, Right. I. I kind of have a connection to this bigger thing that sometimes comes in kind of. If you've ever heard of Bob Dylan, talk about how his songs came in decades ago, right? Where it just, like, they just came and they just happened. And now we all have this gift of this amazing poetry. I think, Ivy, you and I both have share this kind of trust, and I think building that trust and also nurturing ourselves as leaders to take care of ourselves and to know, like, what inspires us, what makes us genuinely care, what gives us the capacity to show up and listen and learn the instruments, that's a really big part that very few people think about. And ultimately, like. Like, don't often make time to cultivate, which I think makes us better leaders and makes it more fun to sustain it. And I think that that's like an undervalued Allocation of time and resources is like to really take care of ourselves, leading projects and organizations and businesses.

I totally, totally agree with you. You know, we don't ask a computer for output till we give it input. So I'm very good at making sure I feed myself as I feed others. And I've always lived this parallel life of leading design teams in the corporate world and making sure that. And then studying sound, light, color, vibration, things that capture my attention because they feed me. And if I'm fed, I can be that much better for what, you know, what I have to do in my day job, so to speak. And so really, I've treated those interests as important as a business meeting. I mean, put them on the calendar on my own time, but made the commitment to it because I stay inspired. So therefore, I can be inspiring. And then once in a while, those two worlds cross. You know, the information I've learned trickles in quiet ways, but, no, that is super important, Jodi. And you're right, it's hard to put words to it, but it's probably one of the secret formulas that we just intuitively do for ourselves.

Yeah. And Steven, I know you do that too, like, especially well.

Everybody in alliance has actually been doing it. One of their assignments is to feed their curiosity. Every day that we're in this, we do. You guys have time for a couple more questions?

I definitely have to end at 11 in four minutes. I'm looking at my calendar. I have an 11 o' clock meeting.

All right, Courtney, then Jim, we're going to do lightning rounds. You both have a minute to answer each question. We've got four minutes left.

Okay.

Very good question.

This has been wonderful. Thank you.

I.

So from when you're leading from a place of intuition and deep trust, what is one tip you have to communicating that deep trust that often comes without words or explanation or justification to your team to bring them on board.

To communicate the fact that you're trusting them.

Or that they trusting your own instincts or something that comes from above, beyond this is coming into you something powerful that is part of your. Whether it's spirituality or faith or practice. How do you then translate something that I know you said you pull from your subconscious, but what is one quick tip that you've used with your team and you're like, I just know.

Well, I think I. I think I said it earlier is I make sure that I explain. I try and back out of, like, how do I know? Like, what is it I'm drafting off of if I can so that they Understand that it's not just because I say so, but because I actually, I try and decode maybe. Where is that intuition coming from? It's funny, you know, I'm very careful about using it. But at forums, sometimes when I get, you know, you hold a town hall and there's a Q and A at the end. And every so often they'll ask me questions. Well, like, what is your intuition saying about the future of the world? Or I'm like, wait a minute, I should be answering that. We're having a hardware meeting. And so I. I get a kick out of, you know, that they actually, over time have learned to. They want to know and respect. But the only thing I could say about that is it happens over time and all. The only thing I do consciously is try and explain, like, even where that. Why I may be feeling that way so that they can trust it more.

Did you just predict the birth of a grandchild like two weeks out? I mean, okay, besides the point total.

I'm not that diplomatic. I just tell them that's what we're going to do, and I trust my intuition and we all have to do it. And they laugh and then they trust me.

Oh, yeah. See, I.

I blame it on time. We don't have any time. We don't have any money, so just do it. And if we mess up, it's my fault.

Cool. Yeah. As long as you take accountability. Yeah. No, no, I. No, I. I understand. I totally get it. There are times where I feel like I'd like to do that, but I feel like I really can't. So you get that?

Yep. Last question from you. And then we're gonna lose them.

Yeah. So about the dialectic between having aspirational goals and then satisfaction. So I. I think a lot of creative, you know, leaders have want. They want more, they want a lot, they want big, they want fast. They want now and then. Sometimes you hit those goals and those people want to move on to more a lot. And yet teams often need some celebration or satisfaction. So if you're always dissatisfied and aspirational, it's not good. So I wonder how you handle that in your. In your work.

Yeah, I mean, I, I don't experience a lot of the front things that you said. Like, I love the process, and I love, like, the reason why I do what I do is because I love being in it with creative individuals that wake up every day and love to do good things in the world, because that's life.

We're great.

We're going towards something that is hopefully important, but it's the day to day that. So I feel like I try to lead from the place of like, let's wake up and do important things that keep us happy and together and creating. And as long as we stay there, then we're ultimately creating beautiful, important things.

Yeah. You know, I agree with Jodi and I would say I'm not sure this answers the question, but I always tell my team, you know, we can have an idea, but if we can't execute, on never gets to the world. So we gotta find joy in both. So it's, it's, it's really enjoying the process as much as it is that pure creativity. You know, I think you have to set up a culture that understands that you're only as good as you can bring those ideas to reality. So. Not sure if that answers it. Anyway, thank you.

I have enjoyed the process. Thank you, Ivy. Thank you, Jody. Thank you all you for your great questions.

Yep.

And I will see all of you guys in New York. Jody, Ivy, you're out of here. You're dismissed. You're free to go.

Thank you for having us.

I love you both.