The Case for a Four-Day Workweek

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This week on the Andrew Yang podcast.

What version of a shorter workweek are we talking about? Are we talking about one where we protect jobs, incomes, the tax base, or are we talking about one where, you know, maybe lower-skilled employees have to work multiple jobs to earn the same salary? So I do think that that's the kind of conversation about the choices that are facing us when it comes to the disruption that AI inevitably is going to bring about that we need to be having.

It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast the co-authors of the brand new book Do More in Four about— drum roll please— why a 4-day workweek should be our present, not just our future. Journalist for Fast Company and lots of other fun pubs, Jared Linzen, and the CEO of The Work-Time Revolution, Joe O'Connor. Is that right?

That's right.

You got it right.

Fantastic. I like that introduction. Work-Time Revolution. Yeah. You know, well, I'm pumped because most people who follow me know that I was for a 4-day workweek when I was running for president in 2020. I was talking about AI and it was going to come and eat the jobs, which is one of the subjects in your book. How did you guys come to this and then get so fired up that you decided to write a book, which I know is a very big time commitment, and now you're marching around having events.

Yeah, you can start, Joe.

Sure, so I'm from Ireland originally. I first got interested in this subject, I think maybe around the same time as you were talking about it first in 2018.

Wow, oh really?

I was leading some research within the public sector in Ireland where basically we discovered that we had a lot of working parents, mostly women, who had already dropped down to 4-day work weeks, reduced hour work weeks. They had done so for an equivalent reduction in salary. This was really common for people coming back from maternity leave to better balance responsibilities outside of work. And what we discovered was that in almost every case that we studied, when we spoke to the employees themselves, interviewed their managers, looked at the data, their job expectations and responsibilities hadn't changed. They were delivering the same amount of output in the reduced timeframe as they were doing when they were working full-time. So that was really when I started to feel like we already had the productive capacity and the technological tools at our disposal to work less and achieve the same or even more within that timeframe. And it's when I discovered this concept, Parkinson's Law, that a task expands to fill the time available for its completion.

Which most people recognize in our own lives. If I have 3 days to, you know, clean the living room or whatever, lo and behold, it will be done at the end of the 3 days. And if you'd given me 2 days or 1 day, I would have done it in that timeframe.

Yep.

And I might have been more or less efficient, depending upon it. And maybe that's not the greatest example because it's like a finite amount of time, but you could apply it to writing an essay. That's a good one. Right. That if you say, hey, write an essay today, you'd be like, well, that's kind of a lot, but then you get it done. If you say write an essay in 3 days, then, you know, it kind of expands. Parkinson's Law is that work will expand or contract to fill whatever time you give it.

Yes, for sure.

Is that the summary? It is.

And I think, yeah, you're right. Most of us have experienced this. You know, if you've got a week where a public holiday falls, you find a way usually to get through the same amount of workload within that time.

No, I'm going on vacation, I got to get all my stuff done. That's like a common—

Exactly. The Pomodoro principle, which a lot of people use as a productivity hack, you know, it's all about 25, 50 minutes. And part of the science behind that is if you set yourself that condensed goal, you know, it really motivates you to get more done in less time.

So Jared, it sounds like Joe here saw it in Ireland, and then in his case, he decided to conduct these studies and drop everything and start this awesome organization, Work Time Revolution. How did you as a journalist get excited?

Yeah, so I've been writing about the future of work for 12, 13 years now. It's a lot falls under that category. So I was writing about remote work in like 2013, 2014 before anybody was really doing that. I was writing about, you know, the rise of the gig economy in the early days when, you know, Airbnb was just launching and what the implications of that might be and Uber later. And so, you know, I didn't write books about those things. Those blew up and I was like, well, maybe I should look around for the thing that's going to be book-worthy in the future. Around this time, starting when Joe was working on these pilots in 2018, 2019, I actually started interviewing Joe about those pilots because again, future of work reporter falls under my purview. I think we had 4 or 5 conversations and each time there's just more evidence and more data to suggest this could really work. It's just the inertia and the way things have always been done. That's the only thing really stopping people from doing it, but those who have gotten over that have, you know, proven that it's feasible. And then finally, Joe and I met at a conference after he had moved to Toronto, where I'm from, and we started hanging out because he happens to be a big fan of Canadian sports, randomly, as an Irishman.

Specifically the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Specifically the Toronto Maple Leafs. So we, you know, started hanging out in Toronto and then interviewed him one more time for the Toronto Star, I think in February of 2024. And after that interview, he was like, hey, why don't we just write a book about this subject? And that's basically how we got into it.

And then you said, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's a little too intimate there, Jerome. I'm really, really glad you guys did decide to team up on this. And so, Jared, you talked about the data, and now there is— I mean, there's more data now than when I was talking about it in 2019, 2020. There were dozens of Irish companies that sounds like your organization was behind those studies, but also for the Americans in the viewership, because we think that we're special and all the rest of it. There have also been companies here in America that have adopted the 4-day workweek. And so what does the data show?

So I worked with 41 US companies in the first big North American pilot, which started in 2021, ran into 2022. And actually, the success rate in the US was even higher than it was in Europe. Every single company that took part in that 6-month pilot decided to retain the policy at the end of that that period. They had an average year-on-year revenue increase of 15% in addition to statistically significant improvements in employee well-being across a whole range of different factors. I think really one of the biggest misconceptions about the subject is I think most people hear the 4-day workweek, they think this is—

Hang on, hang on. Most people hear 4-day workweek and if they're a worker, which most of us are, they probably think, "That'd be dope." Yeah. I think. I think. and we'll see about the data, but then like, what do you think the misgivings are?

I think that certainly the business and employer misgivings are actually quite similar, and we cover a lot in the book about the, you know, how the 5-day workweek came along and you read a lot of weird— yeah, a lot of people saying it's going to crash the economy.

Actually, you might as well go through a little bit of history here since you guys did all this research. Okay. So back in the day, people just worked all the time. It was kind of a mess, a free-for-all. And then the 5-day workweek was this great innovation. I think it was Henry Ford, right? Yes. Henry Ford's behind a lot of things, and he was like, we're going to have a 5-day workweek. And people thought that was going to crash the economy for various reasons. It's funny to think about.

You can see like editorials that he wrote and like his detractors were writing at the same time. There's a whole record of these like, you know, old-timey insults flying back and forth that this was going to ruin the economy, that people were going to just become lazy and useless people. And yeah, it's a lot of the same stuff that we hear when we talk about the 4-day workweek.

Yeah. And there have now been a number of prominent figures who've been saying, hey, maybe we'll work 2 or 3 days in the future with AI, that AI is going to transform work in various ways. And a lot of people are hearing this being like, well, please. Though right now, I'd say Americans seem to be working harder not less even as technology improves. And there was this period when you kind of had to be always on and like, you know, responsive to your emails or now it's the Slack.

So you're talking about people like Bill Gates, Eric Yuan, Jamie Dimon have all predicted that we may, you know, they make us seem like conservatives because they're talking about a 2.5 or a 3-day workweek. But I think that the challenge that we would put to them is number one, They're talking about this like weathermen, where this is something that, you know, is far, far in the distance.

You're like, Jamie, you could just do the 4-day work week right now. Let's go. Exactly. You're the boss, aren't you?

I mean, you know, there's a lot of prediction without a lot of action. But also, I think that the big fear—

Look at you.

I think the big fear, and I think this is one that you share, is that, you know, what version of a shorter work week are we talking about? Are we talking about one where we protect jobs, incomes, the tax base? Or are we talking about one where, you know, maybe lower-skilled employees have to work multiple jobs to earn the same salary? Um, so I, I do think that that's the kind of conversation about the choices that are facing us when it comes to the, the disruption that AI inevitably is going to bring about that we need to be having.

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That's being used as like an actual strategy in parts of the world, particularly in Asia, where like they're using the 4-day workweek explicitly to reverse the trend of declining birth rates. So yeah.

And by the way, that makes perfect sense to me. If you gave me 3 days off, that's more time for me to go out and mix and mingle and like, you know, meet people. Then that's more time for me to spend with my kid if I have the kid. So I think, ooh, like having kids is a good idea. And, you know, you talk about how the data shows that there's more division of responsibility in households with a 4-day workweek. So these are pretty good arguments. Most people are hearing this being like, wow, you know, that sounds amazing. And then the concern, I think, is around business productivity and like organizational culture. So I'm going to come clean in various ways. Check it out. I am very, very pro-4-day workweek. And as I read your book and I'm having this conversation with you and I'm joking about other CEOs, like, I'm the CEO of a company called Noble Mobile. I believe in a 4-day workweek. Why doesn't Noble Mobile have a 4-day workweek? You know, just to put myself on the spot, which you guys are too polite to do, but I'll put myself on the spot. And, you know, my response would be like, I would totally consider it and think about it. And for certain people and roles, it might be appropriate than for others. I mean, we are a 9-month-old company in terms of the fact that we launched very recently. And so I will say that I personally, even if I were to have technically a 4-day workweek, I would be working a lot because, you know, if you start a company and it's only 9 months old, then you're like, all right, I got to bust some ass and, right, like, you know, make this happen. So very open to it. And I think it would make sense for some roles really, really quite quickly. You know, we do have some people in certain roles where they are working 3 days a week right now, like because they're covering customer service nights and weekends and like, you know, so there are different approaches. But I think the concern is articulated really in this like, oh, aren't you supposed to have this kind of go, go, go industrious culture? And then if I have a 4-day workweek, does that somehow diminish?

And I think it comes down to realigning the incentives around work. So if you're a founder, you're an entrepreneur, I think your incentives are a little bit different to your average employee. If you put in more hours in the evening or on the weekend, there's a very direct link to value creation, your own professional standing being improved. That isn't the case for the majority of workers. And so I think the challenge that we talk about is this concept of performance punishment, which is that for a lot of employees, they feel, if I'm the first in the line to adopt new tools, if I'm consistently coming up with new and better ways to do my work, new efficiencies. Usually the only reward that I get is for more work, more tasks to be loaded onto my plate. And so the shorter workweek at its core is really about aligning the incentives between the organization's interests and the employee's interests. This is not a kind of a free lunch. This is something that is very directly linked to predetermined business outcomes and objectives in order to make it sustainable for the organization. And when it's designed and implemented right, it really does produce this powerful alignment between worker interests and organizational interests.

And especially we talk a lot about how the skills that you need to be successful in a knowledge economy are not the same as the skills you need to be successful on Henry Ford's assembly line.

That's true.

But we're still making—

We kind of pretend.

Hours are kind of the same regardless. And so there is a diminishing point of returns on hours worked for most workers. Again, it's a little bit different if you are the business owner, the entrepreneur. The more time you put in, there's a little bit more of a direct relationship. But if you're imposing those really long hours on your workers, you're not necessarily getting more out of them. Whereas in a knowledge economy where, again, we're really dependent on the outputs of the brain, people's motivation, their sort of ability to recover, their mental health actually has a much more direct impact on the business's success than the number of hours that they're working in a day.

I agree with that. I mean, your goal— Or your measurement in a job shouldn't be, did you come to this office and spend hours, like, you know, 9 through 5 here? Because, you know, and one of the points you guys argue, which I totally agree with, is that like a lot of that time is not super productive, and there's kind of this FaceTime culture or like, you know, be in the office culture that isn't positive. I think that people would be more creative if they're less burnt out, and if you have a job that actually relies upon creativity, then you might get much higher productivity because maybe the entire job is to have one awesome sparky idea.

And, you know, and maybe if I chain you to your desk, you're like, "No, not really producing that." Especially in the age of AI where, you know, the machines are doing a lot of the repetitive stuff that takes a lot of hours but is necessary. You know, if the machines are doing that, then what's left for human labor is the creativity, the judgment, the problem solving, the stuff that we do better when we're, you know, more mentally and emotionally— Fresh. Yeah, when we're fresh. Exactly.

Not burnt out, not, you know, yeah.

Like we say, you know, if you're a worker on Henry Ford's assembly line, like if you're burnt out, if you're depressed, if you're just having a, you know, rough day, doesn't matter. The work's still going to get done. But if you're those things working on, you know, the next big creative idea that's going to change the business, it really does matter how you show up. And we're trying to, you know, incentivize a way of showing up that is mutually beneficial.

So common sense too, it's like, you know, you had whatever, like for the pre-Ford days, and we had all sorts of weird labor practices and, you know, probably child labor in there and like a little bit of other things. And then we changed for the industrial age, which was, let's call it, 100 years ago or so. And then people like, okay, 5-day workweek and you have these weekends and this, you know, notion of retirement, which unfortunately now is going to be tougher and tougher. A lot of folks, you also have college, you know, and school days structured in certain ways. And then you have AI, and then AI comes and AI is going to change a lot and become buzzsaw. And so like for us to continue to maintain this industrial age setup and schedule really doesn't make a whole lot of sense is, I think, a pretty good argument you have in the book.

Yeah, I mean, I think that the connection with AI is at multiple levels. You know, to Jared's point, a style of people leadership, which I think we see with a lot of middle managers, that's about volume rather than value creation, is just going to be so outdated in a world where racing against the machine on speed of tasks, volume of tasks, volume of processes is really not going to get you very far. But I also think if you're a leader and you have this backdrop that we've seen—

Challenge made.

If you're a leader, you're running a Volvo. Regardless of our views about AI and what it's going to do at a macro level, there's very few people leading organizations now that can ignore AI. They know that they need to think about how can we integrate this into our operations? And how can we bring our people with us in doing that? So when the backdrop is Eric Schmidt getting booed giving his commencement speech, protests outside data centers, the American workforce is the most concerned of any workforce globally about AI. And so something like a shorter workweek can flip the script. It can really say we're serious about this being something that is a benefit-sharing initiative that's going to make your lives better, your quality of work experience better, and not just a one-way street.

Well, one of the major learnings I took from your book was that historically the private sector has led on this. So check it out. I ran for president and was like, hey, 4-day workweek. And if I were president, would I pass legislation trying to support a move in this direction for millions of workers? Yeah, I would genuinely, because I think it's better for our health, our mental health, our relationships. I think it would preserve some jobs at the margins because, you know, in certain kinds of setups you'd be like, oh snap, like, you know, like we could use a person during this time. And like, maybe, you know, and I might want— everyone knows, I think, like one of my main jams is that I'm concerned that AI is going to eviscerate tons of jobs. And so anything that I think is job preserving at the margins, even though I know a lot of your book is that, look, you're going to get the same amount of work done. So theoretically, like, would it influence the number of workers? But some of the companies I've been in, just, you know, just for coverage, you might need more people because, you know, people are working 4 days instead of 5. So, and there are environmental benefits that you guys discuss. I think there'd be more kids being born. I do, because you could both meet someone more easily and date them and then also feel like you could spend time with your kid, and that you're not getting burnt out running to the office. Most all of us have had a 3-day weekend and we came back and felt refreshed.

Yeah.

And most of us also have had a Monday morning where we're like just dragging ourselves like, "Oh no." Like 2 days sometimes just feels too short and 3 days feels pretty much just right.

Well, yes, if I may, the craziest part is that there's actually been research recently last year that I was reporting on that we slipped into the book in one of the later while we were editing it. Basically, the research found that most managers agree with what you just said. They believe that their staff return from vacations, long weekends, time off more energized, more refreshed, more productive. However, those exact same managers in the exact same study, if you say, you know, what is your impression of workers who use an out-of-office message while they're on vacation or who don't respond to emails after hours, they will say, those exact same managers will say, those staff are less committed to their jobs and therefore they are less promotable. And so managers both agree that there is a value in time away from work, but are also hardwired because of this culture that we've had for the last 100 years since the Ford days to equate hours and presence with productivity and commitment. They're just wired to see them as less motivated, less dedicated, and less worthy of promotion.

And I think the other thing that stupid managers— well, I mean, it's not their fault.

They're just the way the culture works.

They're conditioned. Yeah.

But I think one other thing that I discovered in writing this book, you know, I came at this issue 7 years ago, 8 years ago.

I want to actually hear, like, what is the feedback and reception been since you guys now are kind of missionaries on this quest? I mean, we're going from here to an event. Yeah. With, you know, thousands of people who are all just gonna be chanting, "Do more inform!

Do more inform!" Are you gonna be one of those?

Yeah, I'll be leading the chant. I'll have like the sign, "Do—" All right, sorry, I cut you off.

No, I was going to say, you know, I always saw this, and I still see this as like the next big, you know, the next big level of progress for us as a society that, you know, throughout history we have consistently shared the gains of productivity and technological advancement with the workforce through time up until, you know, the '50s, '60s, '70s, the kind of the tap was turned off. But one thing that I kind of— has changed my thinking around this in writing the book was kind of reckoning with the reality that when The 5-Day Workweek came about, we had only about 20% of the workforce were women, the paid workforce. The average working hours per household unit has gone up dramatically during that time. And so this I think is why, you know, you're talking about the value of that extra day off for people. So many working parents that we've spoken to who have gone through this talk about how, you know, for them, let's say Friday is their day off, Saturday is all about, you know, kids' activities, Sunday is about catching up, life administration, getting ready for the week ahead. Friday is giving them some me time that they just otherwise have not been able to have. And I think it is, I think that's why it's so powerful as a leadership strategy and as an organizational strategy because it's so life-changing. There's very few other policies that have that kind of impact.

I do think that benefits will accrue to the early adopter organizations in terms of retention and morale. Like right now, if a company were to go 4 days, I think all your best people would say, this is dope. And then if they interviewed with another company, they'd be like, oh no, I don't want to like go back to the Monday through Friday grind after living this life. Yeah. Um, and again, it sounds like historically the pattern has been that this is going to be firm-led. Not government mandated, which makes sense. I like it. It's cultural, and it's going to take some really, really awesome forward-thinking major company CEO to throw down. I mean, if Jamie Dimon were to do it, that would change everything. Like, Jamie Dimon was like, JPMorgan Chase is now 4 days.

I mean, oh, he's like the least likely, but you know, if he did.

Yeah, I will say I doubt Jamie's gonna be first. Eric Yuan of Zoom, maybe he'll be one of the—

OpenAI put it in their list of things that they— their policy proposals for an AI future, they included on their list of things that should happen.

It really does make a ton of sense, and I hope that some CEOs do follow your example. I am going to reexamine what we can do at Noble. I will say that, you know, again, since we're a startup and we're 9 months old, Um, like the, it's, I can see this being a slam dunk for a mature organization that's doing its thing. And the people are coming in, like the organizations that my, my, um, parents worked at as an example. My dad worked at IBM in the lab and my mom worked at our local state university. Like I can see that being like perfect fit. I'm a crazy person who starts new companies and orgs periodically. And then I'm like, we're going up the hill. Recharge, charge. And, you know, I, I do still think that, uh, you know, it's super important to have time off and, um, time with families. And I'm— I don't know if you guys have families and all that jazz, but I am married with two kids, so like, you know, I, I get that aspect. But I, I think for the vast majority of companies of a certain, um, size and maturity, this would be a total winner.

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What has the reception been like as you guys take this message on the road or write about it in your case, Jared?

Yeah, it's been really interesting. We've gotten mostly support, and of course we get a few detractors because some people are just like, "Yeah, that sounds nice, but it's never going to happen," which is common.

It really should happen. I mean, it's crazy.

I mean, yeah. We've been very pleasantly surprised by the outpouring of support that we've gotten. First of all, we've made a lot of news, which is great. You know, a lot of organizations in the news business that I'm in see this as like a really compelling topic that people are very keen to learn more about.

You mean news organizations themselves, like media companies? Oh, they're not going to make the switch anytime soon.

They're as short-staffed as can be, but, you know, I can hope. But in terms of promoting the idea, they seem very keen, and we've gotten getting some really good reception. We went to London, did an event there with the Warwick School of Business, had a great reception there. We're here in New York. We did an event in Toronto where we're from. So yeah, we're getting a lot of like positive feedback. We of course get a little bit of criticism, but that is to be expected.

Your critics are dumb. No, I'm kidding. Just kidding, guys. But in your case, you actually run a company, an organization in this space, Joe, Work Time Revolution. So my question for you all, and this is like a real thing, let's say some people watching this and listening to this are like, we gotta make this happen. So they could follow Jared, Jared Lindzen, and his work, 'cause he's gonna be doing a lot of writing about this. They could follow Andrew Yang, because if I happen to become president, I'm gonna be taking the whole government to the Ford. No, I'm not sure, 'cause the American people might get mad. They're ticked off enough about, Well, you know, about whether government is working hard for them. But President Yang would totally be trying to make a 4-day work week happen in all sorts of precincts. But what can people do if they want to be supportive of the vision?

Yeah, I mean, I think when we have a Yang presidency, we might be heading towards a world where—

When, I like this. Do more in 4! 4 more days! More days.

We might have to work on the sloganeering, Andrew, I think. Yeah, that's true. I believe it's a question of when rather than if as to when this is going to be something that's just going to be the new normal across the economy. It's not going to be for every firm, much like not every firm works a traditional 5-day workweek today. But I do think it's going to be the new normal. But for firms that do that now, that are an early adapter, that are a first mover, I think it is one of the big messages in our book is that this isn't an easy lift. This isn't a set and forget. This is something that does require a big commitment on the part of the workforce. And that's why we believe that this does need to be positioned as an incentive in a world where most of your clients, your competitors, other stakeholders in your industry are all working 5 days. This does require some pretty careful planning, We talk to— And you do this for your company, right?

Like, can someone reach out to you at like joe@worktimerev or something like that? That is exactly—

that was a good choice of email address because you just guessed it.

Yeah, you didn't tell me, so go ahead and give everybody your email.

I didn't shorten it. It's not worktimerev. It's the whole thing.

Okay, so it's joe@worktimerevolution.com, and it sounds like Joe can help walk your company through this?

For sure. Yeah, I've worked with hundreds of companies to do this. Hundreds?

I would say, you know, you want to remind me of this guy named Scott Santens who's like Mr. Universal Basic Income. Yeah, Mr. Universal Basic Income just walks around being like, it's dope and we should do it for everyone. You're like Mr. 4-Day Workweek. Exactly. He shows up to companies and be like, guys, Fridays, be at home walking that dog. Yeah. So it's Joe at worktimerevolution.com. We've worked with hundreds of firms. And if you are a decision maker at your company, feel free to broach this. Maybe you could do something really subtle, really subtle, like buy their book and then just slide it under the desk.

We were actually— the book was translated into Korean, and the first review we got, the title was, "Put this in your boss's office and lock the door." That was the title of the first review we got in Korean. So that is definitely the idea. Well, this is—

Gonna be great for people and workers and companies and humanity. I totally think we have to head this direction as quickly as we can. You've given me a lot to think about. And the book was very well done where you guys actually went through implementations and data and people and workers and stories, 'cause obviously people need to see it to make it real. So how can people keep up with you and your work? We've talked about it a little bit, but like, how can they best support you guys?

Yeah, well, buying the book, of course. Sure. Yeah. Come out to see us speak when we come to a town near you. And yeah, my work is at JaredLindzon.com. Joe's work is at WorkTimeRevolution.com. And our combined work is at DoMoreInFour.com.

DoMoreInFour.com. That's what I was looking for. And the subtitle of the book is Why It's Time for a Shorter Workweek. Pretty succinct and accurate and powerful message. Do More in Four: Why It's Time for a Shorter Workweek. Joe O'Connor of Work Time Revolution, Jared Linzen, journalist extraordinaire. Thank you both very, very much. And I hope people do buy copies of the book, slip it into their managers' offices, and then like bar the door. Oh my God, if this happens to me at Noble Mobile, I'll have no one to blame but myself.

You're giving them ideas. It's inevitable. Otherwise, you know that none of your staff listen to your podcast, which it would in and of itself be a problem.

So, oh my gosh, you're right. It's fine. I'm in like a shared office plan. They can't really trap me. Thank you, gentlemen. Congratulations, and I hope that this goes far and wide.

Thank you so much for having us.

Yeah, absolute pleasure. Thank you, Andrew. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

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