The Narcissist Expert: How To Spot Them, Survive Them & Why They're Everywhere - Dr. Ramani

Narcissistic personality disorder is a stable, persistent pattern of personality functioning that is characterized by selfishness and arrogance. And there's nine symptoms of which a person needs five. And I'm going to crunch these down.

What are some of the key traits that drive high performance? Are also the ones at the very core of narcissism? If you were in a stadium, what percentage of people are narcissists?

15, 16%.

And if you were to walk into the halls of a world class football team or world class basketball coach slash athlete mix?

20 to 25%.

Wow. Welcome back. Or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I AM your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high performance psychologist. Now, the idea behind these conversations is simple. To sit with the extraordinaries to really learn about how they work from the inside out. Today's conversation is one that hits deep and I am so pleased to welcome Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Clinical psychologist, professor, and leading expert on narcissism.

So when a person is in a relationship with someone who's narcissistic, the most common experiences we witness are self blame, self doubt, isolation, anxiety, depression. I hate to say it, but destroying a person's psyche is a pretty straightforward process.

Dr. Ramani shares her model for navigating these relationships. She explains the different types of narcissism and how gender shapes their expression.

The girls are allowed to be able to express emotions. What we still have not figured out is how to hold space for men and boys to be vulnerable without pathologizing them is weak. And without that vent, I do think that the grandiose and the malignant narcissism are more likely than to be expressed.

Dr. Ramany's insights are powerful, practical. They're grounded in years of clinical research and personal experience too. Okay, so speak to the person that's in a relationship with somebody who's narcissist. How do you help guide them? Stay or go?

So the stay or go conversation. I tend to be agnostic. I say.

So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Dr. Ramani Durvasula. I am really looking forward to this conversation. I. I think I spend a lot of time with narcissists and so given what you do.

Yeah, you do.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, you do.

So I. Okay, so there's a lot to unpack here, but let's start at the beginning. Where does the story of narcissism Begin for you.

It begins. It's. I wish it was more sparkly, this story, more interesting, you know, but it was. It's actually kind of like many research stories, it becomes a sort of a dull necessity, necessity as a mother kind of a thing. I was a brand new professor at Cal State la, and working on other people's research. And there were labs around the city and the student, the student research assistants would come back and over a series of weeks they would just come back like, you know, really with the sort of like, you know, rubbing the temples, headache kind of thing, like what's going on? And they kept describing these patients who pretty much monopolized the run of the clinic. They were entitled. They were rude to the receptionist, they were rude to the nurses, they were rude to the research assistants, they were demanding. They were difficult. Difficult people, that was the word that came to mind was difficult. It was enough that these research assistants were feeling like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore. Which made me wonder, would the other health professionals want to step back and honestly how much of a sort of healthcare toll these people were taking? Was everyone getting poorer care because healthcare professionals were so burned out at deal with this small handful of difficult patients? That led me to start a program of research looking at personality and health, health behaviors, perceptions of health, self protection and health. And with a real focus on these sort of rigid, maladaptive personality styles like narcissism, to see what would come out of it. And I looked at personality, personality disorders, the whole nine yards. But simultaneous to that, I also, about maybe five years later, my private practice was really coming up in earnest. I was doing all this on narcissism and I was talking to people who kind of kept telling me the same relationship story. They were being invalidated. They always wondered what they were doing wrong, saying wrong. They were, they were being gaslighted. But you know, wasn't. We weren't even using the term as much then. And.

Sorry, it was a new term for me 10 years ago. Yeah, it wasn't part of my training.

No.

And I, I do like the term. I think it's probably overused, maybe dangerously so in some cases. But like. So we'll come back to gaslighting, what it is. And we also need to operationalize narcissism in a minute. But so, okay, sorry to interrupt, but so go, go.

In doing my clinical practice, I was like, how interesting. These people, they bought all the relationship books and all the marriage books and they did what those books told them, chapter and verse and they were getting nowhere. The relationship problems actually just kept it getting worse and worse. But when they described their partners to me, I'm like, this is clearly someone narcissistic. The behaviors are there. So I decided to take a leap into the unknown, educate these. These clients about narcissism. That was the aha moment. They said, wait a minute. This thing has a name? And the minute they realized it had a name and it was a thing, they really kind of came back from the precipice of feeling crazy. And when they. When it really was why they were stuck, why they couldn't get unstuck, why the world saw this person one way and they were having a different experience. Once we were able to reconcile all of that, people were in a much better position to make decisions. I mean, not everyone left, but even those who stayed were like, now I know what I'm dealing with. And the ones who left really left on the. On the basis of this really isn't going to change. Because it's not.

Narcissists don't really change.

They don't change. And that's how. But that's. And then I realized what we do is we blame people in these relationships.

Why don't you leave?

Why don't you leave?

Why don't you stay?

What is wrong with you? And the problem was, and this is what was so compelling to me, narcissism is different than addiction, or if you were to partner with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, those are viewed as problem states, right? Being an addict is not healthy. Being living with a major mental illness is not healthy. But narcissism is different. These people were charming, charismatic, confident. They look good on paper. They were overrepresented in leadership. So to the world, these people were the proverbial catch. They were often quite charming in a crowd. They'd often pick up the check for a large group of people. So the world had a really beneficent view of these folks while their partners and family members were suffering that dichotomy. That's what brought me into the world. I realized that we have been gaslighting these clients all along. And that's why I came into it.

So this didn't. You said sparkly. Your origin story was not sparkly. So you did not have a relationship with a narcissistic parent or. I know you. It's not your mother. Right?

Because, you know, it's not my mother. But I'll tell you this. I've had all of the above parent past partners, not my ex husband, bless his heart. He's a good man. But parent, ex, ex, partners, friends, colleagues. I had every kind you could have in your life. In my life. But here's the irony that click together didn't even. I'm doing this work, doing this work. And I remember my therapist once sort of sitting in front of me in a bemused way and I was like, what is happening with your face? You know, it's like therapist on therapist therapy is a bit like a, like chess with the devil kind of thing.

Yeah.

Like, what is this face? And she said it was the day I was like, isn't it ironic, you know, that I basically, you know, ended up taking over the family business without intending to. And she started laughing. She's like, I was wondering how long this was going to take you. And she said, I'm convinced you stayed in those toxic relationships longer than you needed to just to get data.

Oh, God. Okay, let's hope not. But I get it. Okay, so let's go. Let's get into. Let's operationalize narcissism a bit. Let's get into like what it is and we're going to point to the relationship bit of with a narcissist. So just go as high level as you want to talk about narcissism, the type, the definition, the characteristics and the types.

So narcissism's a person, is a description of a personality style. And I really am making a fine point of that because I don't think that when we use the word narcissism, we're talking about a disorder. That whole idea of narcissistic personality disorder, we can put a pin on in that and come back to it later. But when I.

You're breaking form from the field.

When you say breaking form from the field. And, and I don't think this diagnosis should have ever existed. It. There's no value add, there's no evidence base of treatment. It is. No clinician in their right mind would write this down. Certainly it could be a guiding hypothesis, but no one's going to put this on a document that's going to track this client around. Insurance isn't going to pay.

Wait, so. So you're saying that clinicians don't diagnose narcissists?

Not as.

Because they don't pay and they don't.

They don't pay, they don't change. And it's a stigma many times for the client. HIPAA being hipaa. The fact of the matter is, if this paperwork wends its way through a system which it may. If somebody's seeing therapy, seeking out therapy in like an institutional system, you know, like an HMO or something like that. It is. It is a. It's sort of the scarlet letter of. Of diagnosis. That and borderline personality. And. And I think even narcissistic personality dis. Because we actually do have an evidence base for treatment for borderline personality disorder.

But not narcissism.

But not narcissistic personality disorder. And there's not a single clinical trial.

Yeah, there's some research around it that is compelling and interesting, but not a clinical trial. Not a clinical trial. All right, so let's get into it. Let's do the op. Let's do. Let's define it.

Let's define it. So narcissism as a personality style is a maladaptive and rigid personality style, contrasting it to other healthier styles that is very much antagonistic in its nature. So stuff like manipulativeness and hostility and arrogance and. And selfishness are a big part of his. Of the profile. Here's the point I want to make about narcissism. I'm going to list out about five or six key traits and patterns. You got to have all of them. This isn't a pick and choose. It's an all in. So you're talking about.

Wait and. Okay, before you go.

Yeah.

I also want the listener to listen. Listen to the words you're using to describe these maladaptive, stable, pervasive characteristics. But then also, we're gonna. You and I are gonna come back to the spectrum of it, because many of these characteristics are very facilitative for high performance.

You better believe it.

Yeah. So. So, okay, our audience, they're badasses.

Okay.

And so they're going to listen and go, oh, my God, she just described me.

Okay.

On a spectrum.

Yep.

Now, so do the actual clinical diagnosis bit so that we can hear the exact framing. But I do want people to listen to the other part of this as well.

Okay.

This more subtle characteristics.

So you want to know what the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder is?

Correct.

Right. So it is a stable, persistent pattern of personality functioning that is characterized by patterns including selfishness and arrogance. And there's nine symptoms of which a person needs five. And I'm going to crunch these down. I'm not going to belabor the nine, but the. The high points of these nine are things like grandiosity, as evidenced by things like arrogance and entitlement and living in a fantasy world. Fantasies of a perfect love story. Fantasies of a perfect life, fantasies of a grand business plan being actualized.

There is also pause there. I'm going to do the shadow, the spectrum side, which is like, wait, I can do something special in this world?

Yes, I can.

I, I think I'm the magical one that can make this happen.

That's right.

Like, this whole thing runs through me. I am going to make something special happen. I'm going to change the world. Right. And it's those wild ones, you know, the, the Apple commercial, the crazies, you know, it's those wild ones that do change the world.

They do.

And it is those wild ones that change an industry or change a family narrative. And you don't have to be sick to be able to make a radical change. No, you know, but, but yeah, when we talk about, like, be really confident, see a bold vision, you're gonna, you're hitting on some of these characteristics. Keep going.

And I'm glad you said that. We'll come back to that too.

Yeah.

Selfishness and egocentricity and entire self focus with little regard for the needs and wants of other people and the needs of the self are put ahead. Needs of all other people around them.

And this is where for me, that this is the distinguishing characteristic that makes it really toxic it that I am more important than you.

Yes.

Right.

Yes. And not only am I more important than you, your needs don't matter.

And how about this? I use, I like to think about it this way, which is, I have a hard time telling the difference between you and me. You're an extension of me, aren't you? Like, look, if you're the narcissist and I'm wearing a blue sweater and. What? Mike, why do you wear blue sweaters? I've told you, you don't look good in blue sweaters, but actually you don't know how I look in it. You just don't like blue sweaters or.

Your blue sweater doesn't work with my proportional shirts today. That's really what it is.

Yeah. There you go. Yeah.

The next thing is empathy deficits. And here's where I, you know that I'm going to do better than the, the dsm, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual on this. The DSM kind of takes, I think, the lazy way out and just says it's a lack of empathy, but it's not a lack of empathy. I think that that's the simple way out. It is low empathy, cognitive empathy, performative empathy, and transactional empathy. That's narcissism. And by that I mean it's variable empathy, too. That's key. Narcissist.

This is new to me. Yes. Open this up.

Crucial.

Yeah.

Because narcissism, people. This is stuff I've expanded on from everybody else's.

Oh, very cool.

Especially the transactional variable. This is a transactional, performative piece. Okay. Because here's the thing. The thing. Narcissistic people are not devoid of empathy. They cannot be, or they would never be as successful as they are. They have to be able to read the room. And to be able to read the room, they have to be aware of the room. Right. So it's. It's. In some ways, it's some of the emotional intelligence we see that drive sales, but it's something different than that. When the narcissistic person feels safe, stable, valued and important, they're actually quite empathic. They're good in essence. The day they get the raise, the day they get the funding, the day they get whatever it is that they want.

Just temporary.

That it's temporary. So this is how you can see how this would confuse a partner. Because on the day the good stuff comes, they wrap their arms around the partner and swing around the kitchen. Baby, let's go to Hawaii. Baby, I'm so lucky to have you. My God, the house looks amazing. You look amazing. That reads as empathy. It's not. It's a bit of a grandiose fairy tale for a minute, but it feels like a person being seen or heard. And the wife might even say, oh, I'm so happy. Gosh, I had a tough day at work. You did, baby. Tell me about your tough day at work. But if she said the same exact thing the next day when there was a glitch in the funding, she would hear, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me that I need to hear about your problems? You like this house. Well, that's coming because we get all this money. I do not care what's happening at your little volunteer job. So that could happen in one day. Because if the narcissistic person is well supplied, then they look empathic. But they also have the capacity to understand how someone feels. So I always say. It's classically what I say, call it crying at the movie. They can watch a movie and they're crying at a scene that's evocative or sad. Right. They're not cold. They're not psychopathically cut off from that scene. They're crying. It's a sad scene. It might even be that the dog comes home to its owner. So there Is a. They get emotion. Right. And they'll even say, I understand why that would be hard for you, but it's not that emotional kind of hug around a person or doing what they need. It's a very intellectualized experience. Narcissistic people also are very socially perceptive. That also falls into this empathy world because they're able to read what people need, and they know empathy reads well to the world. So in public, they will be quite performatively empath. Empathic, like, oh, my gosh, like, you see what a hard time they're going through. And it'll all seem like, oh, isn't that also so many feels there? And it's transactional. They'll show empathy and say, okay, we talked about your feelings. Aren't we good? Now let's flip the script. So I've done my little empathy currency for the day. That's the picture of empathy. And because it's not an absence of it, a lot of people will say, well, they actually did ask me how I felt, and they did listen to the answer. Doesn't that qualify?

That's why you're separating lack of empathy with low empathy. Performative empathy, transactional empathy, manipulative empathy. So empathy is the ability to experience another person's state and to be aware.

Of how your behaviors impact another person and to be able to create a mental model of what someone else is going through in real time.

Yeah. And then just to be clear, compassion would be taking action from that state. So you're. So I've always thought that narcissists were manipulative in the way that they ex. They used an empathetic binding moment or bonding moment, but they didn't actually feel it.

They don't feel it, but they get it.

So we're saying they get it. It. So it is manipulative. Okay. I just want to make sure I was getting the right thing. So it's not. But you're saying lack of. You're saying it's not lack of.

Yeah, they have. They have a cognitive empathy. They've got it. That's empathy.

Oh, I see what you're doing. Yeah, you're right.

A lack of empathy is what we see in someone psychopathic.

Yeah. They don't feel nothing. They don't understand it.

There's no feeling of anything.

Yeah. Okay. Finding mastery is brought to you by remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the remarkable paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps. It's intentionally built for deep work so there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me, you know, anywhere, from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well. Stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you want to slow down, if you want to work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper.

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So how, how would somebody that is, when they read your work, they want to be a good person. They want to be their very best. They've been told by their parents, be special, you are amazing. Be confident, dream big. They're told by their supervisors, like, keep going, you're amazing, you can do something. You know, like this whole thing is going to ride or die on your success. Like, you've got it, you're the one. And they, and they're listening and they go, oh, hold on. I don't know if I really have empathy. You know, I kind of feel things, but I'm not sure. I'm kind of muted. How would you help somebody distinguish between those two?

Let me give you an example. You know, let's think of it as a person's being told, you can do the special things and you've got the special skill set. Go, do, be, succeed. Okay? And the person says, I really want to do this. And this is going to be 12 hour days, seven days a week for the next two years. And it would be really unkind to get into a relationship with someone because I'm not going to have the time for them and I really want to give all of myself to this. So this isn't the right time to get into a relationship with someone because that's not cool. That's empathy.

Wow.

The person who still goes ahead and gets into the relationship because they want to get, they want to have sex or they have status or whatever, and then they're mad at the person because they promised them falsely, like, we're in a relationship, but they're never around or how dare you interrupt my work. Or my work is more important to you. Or they just have contempt for that person because they are an object. That's that lack of empathy. But your specialness model holds, right? The special person is like, yeah, this, this thing matters. This thing I'm doing matters to me. And I also don't want to hurt someone. And it's not fair for me to drag someone into this right now.

So let me pull on this one more time. The grandiosity, the specialness, low on empathy, but wants it all. Yeah, I want it all.

Meaning the relationship.

I want a relationship. I can do it all. Okay, well then, so it's not a lack of empathy. There's a low empathetic piece. Low piece to it. But I think I can do this. I really do think I can do the seven days at 80 hours a week and be a great parent.

That's a lack of self awareness. Yes, that's a lack of self awareness and lack of self awareness. I still file that half in the empathy drawer and half in this drawer called mentalization. So it's the inability to understand that your 80 hours, your whole fantasy thing is just not gonna. You're not even stopping to think about how you being out of the house 80 hours a week could affect another person.

This is most 24 year olds.

Yes.

Not saying most, but it is.

I agree with you.

Yeah.

And the frontal lobes don't fully develop till 25.

Yeah. And I think about the very special talent in elite sport at the age of 19.

That's right.

Or the age of 14 where adults start to think of them differently. So that's the thing that we don't talk about in elite sport is they're usually special at a young age.

They are.

And at say 14, let's just say, where teachers, adults, uncles, cousins, people that are much older than them, start to treat them differently. They treat them like they bend at their knee almost.

Yes, they do.

And it's, it's a very contorting psychological process to become an elite athlete when you've got your whole community propping you and being deferenced in a position of deference to.

Let me push back on that though, because I've worked with more than a few elite athletes in my practice over the years. Some narcissistic, some not. Okay, the dividing.

It's funny that you just said some. Yeah, it's not like all or nothing.

And some abs really peaked. I mean world class peaked as young, young people. And then there was this whole. The remaining 70, 80 years are going to have to live after that. Right. The ones who turned into very empathic, compassionate, attuned, connected adults, they had this core empathy was there all along and they had all the things you're talking about. The adults were in bended knee and all of that, it was just muted from. It was muted, but not even that muted. They just had to. In some cases, what they said, and this is where it gets really interesting and quite complicated. They said that there was no margin for error. I had to sink the shot, I had to win the medal, I had to win the prize because I was pretty convinced this parent would stop loving me. That's survival.

I hear that a lot.

That's survival.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Because in a 12 year old or 15 year old that you're still. There's still a little kid brain in there.

Yeah. Many of us, especially them adopt this, I don't know, adult strategy at the 8 with a brain of a 14 year old, you know, 16 year old, which is amazing at one, at one level, but then really problematic when they're older. Okay, so hold on, we're down to four.

I want to ask you a question though. I'm gonna, I want to pivot to. I'm really curious about this and I.

Want to make sure we get to the five.

I want to get to the five. But I want to ask you this before I forget. How much do you think though in an elite athlete this capacity to train like an adult and yet still be expected to have academic responsibilities, but like that single minded focus that would be required, whether it's in kid kids who go on to professional athlete athletics or world championships or Olympics or all of that. How much of do you think is dissociative?

Never been asked that question. I've never had the thought.

It's my biggest concern, having worked with this population, that some of this felt like the dissociation we see in complex trauma. An absolute dissociation where they are so in this other zone because to feel what, what has become a transaction with their parent is so painful that to go fully into this other space that happened to be spun into this performance. But at the end of the day it was dissociation.

You know, the idea that they put on a new personality.

Not a new personality. I'm talking about lower. Not the, not the, not the fully fragmented identity. Dissociation. But I'm saying lower on the spectrum of dissociation. Not quite us. Kind of like someone saying you're there, you're there kind of thing. But the ability to. Again, we know that people who are workaholics, that is a very clearly a form of dissociation. Right. That you could go all into something that is relatively unemotional and that does become an offset to earlier traumatic injury.

So disassociative identity disorder is not what you're talking about.

I'm not talking about that.

You are talking about like a, A trauma response.

Yeah, I'm talking about trauma response. Exactly.

Something that was happening, you know, not being seen, not being valued or some sort of trauma. And oftentimes we'll, we will hear people say, you kidding? The court was my only safe place.

Yes.

That's why I got so good. And I wouldn't necessarily go to dissociation or dissociative experience, but I would say a trauma response. Yes.

Okay.

And then I would say this is going to be a little bit of a horseshoe number, let's say better than 80. And I think I'm being generous. That come from some of the professional leagues in, in the United States. The, the athletes come from very difficult.

Yes.

Environments.

I know.

Call it maybe trauma producing environments.

Adverse childhood environments.

Yeah.

And so hiasis.

And then you kind of, you blend that with, oh, this is a way I'm seen. So there's two confluences that are. There's a confluence of two variables that take place. One is it's a great escape.

Yes.

It is an escape from a trauma experience or trauma traumatic home. And it's also provides a great place to be seen. So it's the snake that eats its tail type of experience. I don't think it raises to the level writ large for disassociation, but it is a radical coping mechanism. And I am on record saying that if you knew what I knew about the path to high performance, you would not challenge and push your kids. You would support them.

Correct?

Right.

That's right.

You would see them and you would be part of, you know, their experience, but you would not be pushing them in this kind of wild way because the washout is radical. There's this thing called identity foreclosure.

Interesting.

And at a young age, I'm trying to figure, figure out, am I rock and roll, am I jazz, am I country? Like what. Who am I? You know? And if you foreclose too early on, just one genre of music, just one, one way of thinking about yourself, you foreclose on all the other potentialities.

Yes.

And why would we do that? Because of all of the benefits that the person is making at an uninformed young age. So I, I like the conversation about dissociative. I'm going to need to run that through my Tumblr a little bit more because you are absolutely correct that trauma is part of the ecosystem for many. Not all.

Not all. No. I agree.

Yeah. And just because you have trauma doesn't mean that it's a dissociative component.

No, no. But there's fragmentation and trauma. I mean, the two go hand in hand.

Yes. Open that up for someone that doesn't.

Basically that the true, the true self, that is a. Is a core element of the human experience. There's a true us with the preferences, values, beliefs, ways we go through the world, you know, and spiritually, cognitively, emotionally, that true self exists. Right. And in the best telling of the story, as a person goes through the development of self, childhood into adolescence, in adulthood, the true self gets to emerge. Right. Good luck doing that in 2025. And actually at any point in human history, because what ends up happening is now we can have what I'd call not quite full on fragmentation, but definitely fault lines. Enough that could definitely push the snap, which is even a parent who's like, oh, come on kid, your old man's an accountant, so why don't you be an accountant kind of thing. But there's not the sense that if you became something else, you were going to be rejected. Right. The parent who wants the kid to play football and you know, is putting the games on him and gets these three years old, gets them the whole thing, the pads and the helmet and the football and. And then around the age of 14, the kid is much more interested in playing the trombone in the band and doesn't want to play football. Knows that the parents being disappointed, but everyone gets over it. We'll see some slight fragmentation there. But when there is trauma, when there's true disruptions of safety for a child, they. The true self cannot emerge. It's too dangerous. The child has to. Modifications have to happen to create safety. And that will come out through trauma responses, whether that's fight, flight, freeze, fawn, any of those kinds of responses may come up, but the child is now pulled off the track of the true self. Now the self is a survival self that modifies so they can attach. It's not even about love, it's about attachment. Attachment is survival. The fragmentation of the self is part of what happens as part of that trauma exposure.

And another way we think about it is kids that come through disruptive families, let's just say not necessarily traumatic, but they oftentimes will adopt a Persona. The angel, the high performer, the clown, the. The disruptor, the, you know, the, the one that's getting in all the trouble, the rebel. But like they'll. It's not their true self. It's something that is working for them.

It's working for them, right?

Yeah, yeah.

These adaptations ultimately either work or the child collapses.

Yeah.

You know, and that's a child. This is like a submit response, basically.

Why do you think, boy, we got to go back to the original narrative here. But why do you think 87% or more of people in the professional rankings in, you know, elite sport in the US at least when they retire, are Broke are, you know, kind of a, kind of a mess in the retirement phase. Why do you think that that is my.

Here's. I have a few hypotheses about that. You know, it's. To me, it's what I call the one trick pony hypothesis, right? It's imagine you go to school and the only thing you learned was math, right? And that's it from day one. There's no reading, there's no writing, there's just math, math, math, math, math. And so by the time you're in high school, you're actually doing, doing relatively high level math. But you can't write a sentence. You can't, you don't know what the capital of anything is. You couldn't even, you know, pick out Australia on a map. But my gosh, you can do math, okay? And so if there is no math job, if whatever, the world uses math differently, AI comes and takes it, comes for math, then what do you do? You can't, you know, I think it's the part of it is the one trick pony of it all, but I think at a deeper level it's the identity gets fully immersed in the activity. Identity and activity are not the same thing. They're separate things. A human being engages in activity, but we are not the activity. But for a person who takes on elite athletics, they are the quarterback. They are.

This is why I say the point dangerous phrase, you know, for athletes is I'm an athlete.

I'm an athlete. Exactly.

It's the most dangerous thing that they can do. So parents that, you know, when you introduce your son or daughter, whoever, like, this is Johnny, he's a quarterback. This is Johnny, he's an athlete.

This is Johnny.

Yeah.

And then let Johnny, you know, talk about being Johnny. And so there is a, there is so much in that identity and that, and that, that the existence as an athlete, because it starts so young for children, it does shape identity. It's not like if I went to go become a ceramicist tomorrow, I'm never going to, at any point in my life, for the rest of my life call myself a ceramicist. My identity is fully baked, cooked and on the shelf. Anything I take on now will not shape identity. Identity had to come from that because it came during the social developmental arc where personality and sense of self were developed.

While we're on identity, what does your identity rest on?

My personal identity. Rest on my personal identity. If I now, I would say it rests on experience, culture, the roles I take. I'm a mother, so I didn't have that role, you know, 25, 25 years ago. So the roles I hold in the world, and without a better way of saying this, there's an inherent ramaniness to me and many of the things I experience as an almost 60 year old woman now were exactly the same things I experienced as a five year old child. The five year old actually in some ways got it all along. But so many societal forces conspire to almost sort again, that's the fragmentation to take that away. That's not really what you want. And so I certainly made choices in my life that weren't congruent with the true self that was already emerging at the age of five.

Yeah, it's a beautiful proposition which is the true self is there.

It's there. Always there. Always there.

One of our first principles here at finding mastery is that everything you need is already inside you.

Yes.

Meaning that the, all of the raw materials there and part of our job is, you know, like kind of chiseling away at David like it's already in there. We just got to see what the potentiality is and help support and challenge people towards that aim. But it's already in there. It's not some version of you later. No, you know, the, it's like if you're on, if you think I do like the version model in this respect, like let's say version, you're on version 8 of yourself. It's like. But version 10 is like the, the absolute you. It's not something you need to build towards. It's get closer to home.

Correct. Correct. And I think that as social, societal expectations start to fall by the wayside, this is why, why with age you sometimes see people landing in this more authentic, true self space because the societal pressures have been lifted. There's no, there's no white picket fence pressure. There's no go become a parent. There's no get married. It's. I mean, that's it. The gloves are off, it's done. And so now what's left is really who are you? You went through all the hurdles. What's left?

There are still old fools.

There are still old fools and they're often the narcissist. So there you go.

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Back on the topic.

Okay, so hit the first two. Let's go to all five characteristics.

Okay, so the next one is we.

Start with the first two just to kind of.

So the first two is the first was the low empathy. The second was a pathological selfishness. The third is what I call sort of the grandiosity circumplex. And what I mean by that is that sitting in grandiosity is the stuff like entitlement. I am special and extraordinary. The rules do not apply to me. But the hypocrisy is the rules definitely apply to you. So it's the, it's the fantasy. It's the fantasy of the perfect love story, the perfect home, the perfect job, the. The perfect life. Right? And social media took that and put a megaphone on that because once upon a time time we didn't know what anyone's life looks like. Now we have this manufactured version of everyone's life we can peer into. But it's that all that grandiosity stuff comes together and entitlement, arrogance, all of that are manifestations of that grandiosity. Now in Some cases the grandiosity looks almost delusional, but it's, it's a key defining element of narcissism.

So let's, let's go to the origin story a little bit. I mean, I know you're moving away from NPD as a disorder. There is a spectrum that you would say is fair. Right. So there's some people that have. That are low on the spectrum. They have some of these characteristics and some have a lot. I think the number is somewhere between like 2 and 6%. You know, in the, in the U.S. have NPD. NPD, if you open the spectrum up where it's problematic.

12%.

12%. And if you were to walk into the halls of a world class football team or world class basketball, what would you think is the coaches slash athlete mix?

20 to 25%.

And if you were in a stadium, so you're not in the locker room but you're in a stadium, what percentage of people are narcissists with the fans? Yeah, the fandom.

15. 15 to 16.

Okay. And if you're walking outside of the US anywhere, does that. Do these numbers change?

That's the great question. And even some of them are spitballs like the stadium, the athletic one.

I know, we're just talking a little bit.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, you're confident that the 25.

I am confident. I could even be higher.

I thought you were being conservative.

I am being conservative. It could be as high as 30. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say that around the world, the numbers that 12% number of enough narcissism to be noticeable. I would not be surprised if that number held globally. I do think that there may be cultures out there where cooperation and collaboration are valued, where emotional expression is not as pathologized. Maybe it's lower. I just can't. I've got to be. Frankly, I'm not sure what that.

Yeah.

Culture would be because I think pretty much all cultures that have any form of capitalistic vein running through them, the hierarchical build of that culture is just, it's pretty much that's going to allow narcissism to. It's going to make it an incentivized quality.

Yeah, it's pro social in a capitalistic society. You know, it's like be ambitious, get after it, go for it. And to do that you got to feel like you're special. You got to feel, you know, there's. It's pro social in sport and high performing environments to have some of these characteristics. And we know, I think it was 2015 at a university, Bangor. Is that people that fell on the spectrum of narcissistic characteristics it. That facilitated higher performance.

100. I completely. Can. I completely see that. I mean, there's no two way. Why wouldn't it.

Okay, so speak to the parent that has. That wants to do the best for their child. What can parents do to support children that don't fall on the. On this spectrum, but really, like, are great citizens and great performers?

Basically you're saying, like, I've got a kid who's a great performer.

We're gonna.

Let's use your athletics example to start with here. Kid who's got all the, all the raw material to be the great athlete. They're doing good, they're doing nice.

And they, and they really like.

And they like what they're doing and they're a good kid. Okay. They play nice. They, you know, they're collaborative with their peers and all of that. That I would say you want to. You want to attune to that child. You want to model empathy for that child. You want to give your child room to breathe. And what I mean by that is the parent who is too overzealously going in there and attempting to do the debrief with the kid as though it's some sort of postgame color coverage on.

The car ride home from practice.

Exactly. Be present with. With all the other stuff. Don't do that. Identity foreclosure. Continue. You, you. You can't just grow apples in this orchard. You've got to grow about 20 other species of stuff. If you're going to keep this farm stand going, you got to do the same with your kid. So to have them talk to you about, like, how, you know, don't let it be about something else. Listen, I had, I had kids who weren't athletes. I had kids who like, were like, performed on stage in musicals and stuff like that. The temptation I'd have to fight, and I didn't always succeed at it. You know, instead of asking about rehearsal or how's it coming with the show is like, like, so tell me things. Like how's it in. In. In the English I would grew up speaking my. What my parents spoke to me, I should say it was the. The trans. The direct translation would be tell me, tell me something. And so that. Tell me, tell me things.

What is your native tongue?

Telugu. So it's a southern Indian language. But that was. I just saw my parents this weekend. It's tell me things.

How do you say that Means tell.

Me, tell me things.

And Then so that you know what I like about that open ended is like it it right away my son would be like well what do you want me to say? Yeah, and, but he can't say I was cool. Fine.

Yeah.

Like you can't give the one word. Tell me things like what? You know, my wife says so she's Cuban. She says, she says any news about any news.

Ah, I like that. Huh?

Yeah. And so it's like an all encompassing, you know, like. Yeah. Okay, so what would. Let's go back to the car ride home. What would you ask? What would you guide our parent community to, to ask or do right after practice?

Open ended, you know, if you whatever the version of tell me things that would work with your kid. Nothing. Nothing at all. Want to hear about my day? Can I tell you a little bit about something I saw today? And don't make it about like that, boss. Say the, the strangest thing happened to me today. I saw SpaceX launch and it looked like a giant jellyfish across the sky or I saw a tree fall across the street. And your kid might be looked looking at you quizzically. But there's a magic to this which is you're not just that. Right. So now a conversation could come of this. Or we, my kids, when they were a little younger but they were still performing, we did the whole high low thing like what's the best thing that happened today? What's the worst thing that happened today? You want to hear mine?

Yeah.

You're also trying to facilitate that reciprocity, you know, like when here what the good thing happened, my bad thing that happened. And so you're trying to engage them on something more than the sports team who's going to be starting on Saturday. You know, what did coach say about that? You know that thing we were practicing last week? Is that working? So because this is now the parent getting ego gratification from the child's performance.

And that's really where it starts or actually quelling anxiety.

Correct.

That is, this is my, this child going to make it correct? I think it's more of an anxious thing. Yeah. Okay.

It could be both.

Yeah, of course it can be both. Yeah, of course. I, you know what I like is like I pick my son up and I'm reading his energy. Energy is like what kind of, what does that really mean? It's like I'm just catching a vibe for how he's walking into the car and I, I feel like it's weird if I don't say anything. So I say how was practice? I don't watch practice. How is practice? And if he goes, fine, dad. Oh, I got the message. If he goes, it was really good. I did that. And I'm like, oh, there's a thing here. And then if he does like, it was okay, and it's kind of like in the middle and he doesn't want to have a hard conversation or whatever, I'll do one more click and I'll say, oh, you know, what'd your coaches have to say to you about. And I will ask that question. I heard it in your narrative. Just really. And I'll ask that as one more thing to see if he wants to explore.

Okay.

And then he'll say something like if he goes there or not. If he doesn't, I'll say, how was school? You know, it's my first catch up with him. It's always, I get to school, but it's like if you just. The kid's walking out of school and I'm talking about something else. It's weird.

Yes.

It feels like I'm meeting, I'm greeting him. You're greeting what he just did.

Yes. But that's why something even more open ended is it's almost like, tell me something. Tell me, tell me things. You know, say it again in your native tongue, Chapu. You know, and so it's like, you know, like an older family member will sit down and say, say jeffu. And then it's just, I know what they want. They want to hear. It's almost like they don't care. I could talk about my kids, I could talk about my car. I could talk about my job. It's sort of, what do you got?

Okay, so now let's say you're in a relationship with a narcissist. Okay. How do you know if you're in a relationship with a narcissist or. I'm going to be provocative here. You're just kind of a mess yourself.

Okay, so you raise an interesting question. Right? Right. I think that he, in people who are in narcissistic relationships will experience an interesting dichotomy. They will say, you know what's interesting? I love my job. I feel really competent at work. I had such a good time with my friends last Saturday at that, at that, you know, girls dinner we had or whatever. But when I'm at home, I feel incompetent, I feel crazy. I feel like I, I am greedy or selfish or stupid. So they'll say, there is. I do see this at many survivors is there's competence in other areas of their life. Like I have friends, I do, I like my work, I volunteer at my kids school. But I get home to my spouse and I. It is the one place where I literally feel like I've lost the plot. And so, so when a person's in a narcissistic relationship and they do have other supports, what we'll see is that that relationship is a place where a person feels a lot of psychological incompetence and even hurt, sadness, invalidation. People will say they lose their confidence as a result of the relationship. They think they're to blame for all the problems in the relationship. And for me as a therapist, the ringer for me is when a client comes in and start especially in the first three to five sessions. For people who are in narcissistic relationships where I can see their healthy self, they will spend a lot of time in there saying I'm so confused about what I'm doing wrong. Like we it I, I seem like, I feel like all I do is say the wrong thing. He's always mad at me. I, you know, or he's cheating on me and I feel like I can't talk about it. There's a lot of self like what am I doing wrong? Wrong. When the person comes in and they're just loading and reloading on my partner is a narcissist. Minor partner's a piece of this, my battle. And all they're doing is it's can you believe how bad my partner is? Can you believe the terrible thing they did? Can you believe? Can you believe? When the entire focus is on the terribleness of the partner, I have to go digging a little deeper because that.

They see if the analysis is they're.

Not willing because most people who are really going through narcissistic relationships it tends to get turned inward. What's wrong with me?

So because the response is I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, this is my fault, I'm to blame, maybe I'm saying it wrong, maybe this is my fault, maybe they are wrong, maybe I am this selfish. Because this is what narcissistic people do. They always are turning it around. You're so selfish. Why are you so needy? You always ask for so much. So if the other person in the relationship is expressing a need, a narcissistic partner will accuse that other partner of being demanding. In essence. And if that's something that someone's heard before in their life from a narcissistic parent or even someplace else, it really can Stick and hold true. Like you might say, oh my gosh, I am selfish.

You know, I'd love for you to speak to two people. One, start wherever you want, of course, but like one is the partner. Like let's speak right into the partner that has had. They saw themselves in this conversation. They're like, oh my God. My partner I think is like, it is really confusing at home and I'm. I'm kind of overwhelmed. I'm a little scared. Like I don't feel good about myself. But in other places I, I feel like I'm pretty good. It's just like, oh, I'm walking on some eggshells and okay, so that person. And then maybe you can also speak to somebody who is like. If I'm thinking about the spectrum, not the npd, we know that they don't really change because they lack insight. But slide.

But even anywhere on the NPD doesn't make it more or less severe. It's that most narcissistic people don't have a lot of self reflection and insight.

So slide way down the spectrum to somebody who sees some of the characteristics that you're describing. They are high performers and they're like whoa, wait, I hear my wife in this, I hear my husband in this. Like I don't want to be that person, but I do think I have some of these traits or, or patterns. Can you speak to both? These are the ones that I, I have hope for.

Yeah. So you're. So again, when you talk about the spectrum of narcissism, think of it this way. And, and those remaining five traits by the way are. Things are on top of the three I've already shared are the, the fourth one is an excessive need for praise, admiration and validation. Okay. And the last one is impulsivity, dysregulation and poorly managed emotions, especially at times of. Of frustration.

For, for harmony. List all five.

Okay, so it's the, the. The low empathy, the transactional. All the sort of. Let's call it the twisted empathy. I like that Pathological selfishness. The excessive need for admiration and validation. The whole grandiosity circumplex and the impulsivity and poorly regulated emotion, especially anger when basically they don't get their words way.

Yeah, right.

Okay. Those are the five. You got to have all five every time, whether it's mild or severe. Okay.

That's a really important character defining characteristic is that if you only have three of them.

No, I'm. That I'm not talking about narcissism with you.

So that's interesting because I put like, if you've got three of them, I put that on the spectrum.

But you're saying no, not so much. Not so much. Because listen, here's the thing. All these five things are highly intercorrelated. It's very hard, hard to get through without the five.

You're changing my model a little bit, which I like because I've always done full npd. Spectrum of NPD or spectrum. And if you've got. You don't full all five, I always put as npd. But if you had three of these. No, you're saying no.

No, I'm not. I'm saying no, absolutely no npd. It's a five out of nine. It's the stuff I'm talking about. Right? But in order for something to be defined as a personality disorder, you've got the sort of. The added piece. A licensed clinician has to look at that.

But this is what I'm doing. Right, okay, wait. But I'm saying if you don't have all five, you're not npd. You're not a disorder. If you had three of those with a couple of the other lower characteristics ones.

Right.

I think you're on the spectrum.

But here's the thing with npd, those, those nine things, they boil down to these five. You see what I'm saying? There's an essence. There's. So like.

So you don't see a spectrum then.

I, I do see a spectrum. And so the spectrum is mild to severe narcissism.

Narcissism. Correct.

Right. Okay.

So you don't have all five. Or you say you do have all five.

All five always comes every time. So if you've got a person who is selfish, entitled and needs to be the center of attention, but they don't have that, that, that reactivity and anger or passive aggression, silent treatment when they're frustrated and they don't have the. I mean, it'd be hard to have this without. But they tend to have relatively intact empathy. Here's where we start. This is where we start getting into areas of privilege. Privilege can really muddy the waters. And what I always say that there's some people out there with so much money, their feet never touch the ground, right? They go from a car and someone opens the car door and they go into an impeccably clean house and the snack they want is waiting for them, which they don't have to clean up at after. They don't do all this juji mess of messy life stuff. They Don't. Right, Right. Yes, Siddhartha, exactly. They don't wait in line at Trader Joe's. They're not worrying about child care arrangements. They don't sit in traffic. They do not wait in airport lines. None of this is their stuff. Their feet don't touch the ground. Folks like that are 100% used to the world running on their schedule and to their win gyms. They want to go to the Hamptons this weekend. Then within an hour, someone's going to make sure they go to the Hamptons. When they get there, the precise strawberries they want are going to be waiting for them. And they love to hold court and tell stories. Okay, three out of five.

Yep.

I don't call that person a narcissist. I call that person maybe a little spoiled, maybe a little lucky. Maybe they were born to money, maybe they made their money young, they're out of touch, but there's still an awareness they may have. They would not be cruel to a person or who's a domestic worker in the, in the home. Do you see the difference? You've got to have all five.

Got it.

And I think when we get off of all five, we miss the essence of why this thing has to hang together and why so many people are overusing the word because that privileged person, they're not narcissistic, you know, people like that. I know people like that, you know, and I'm like, I, I think to myself, like, you know, I don't know that they get my life, but if I explain my life, they might say, say that's really difficult, like, and mean it, you know, and they're saying, is there a way I could support in some way, like, even though they're so far away from it, they care about me. And so, and I sense that as a caring, it's not a, it's not contemptuous, it's not dismissive, nor is it cognitive. They just aren't in it.

So what if you have four and you regulate your emotions pretty well?

If you have four and you regulate your emotions pretty well.

I, I would say I love this conversation. I know we're not even to the relationship, but because this is what I see in elite performing environments, they have to regulate their emotions pretty well. They can be intolerant to the standard to other people, but it's facilitating growth.

Let me ask you this. Do you think they're doing it in their close personal relationships at home, with the partner, with the kids?

Yeah, I do. With you, Doctor, I think they manage their, their Emotions there pretty well in.

Those spaces when they're frustrated, when they're disappointed, when the deal doesn't go through.

I'm talking about some. Yes. Yeah.

Right. So the dysregulation when things don't come the way they want them to because.

They'Re not seen, they're not validated.

Right. They're not routed, they didn't get their way. They're. Somebody thwarted their plan, whatever it may be. And to remain regulated in the face of that. I.

You're saying.

I don't think so, though. No. No.

That probably gives hope to a lot of people, actually.

Yeah.

Listening to this conversation like, is it me? Is it me?

And they go, you're regulating your. Because you have actually chill the emo. The emotional regulation piece is such a. Is so unsettling to the partners and family members because this person who's coming in your. That, that hyper vigilance, that eggshell walking, as it were. It's like carrying a live grenade for everyone in the family. Are they going to come home and blow up? What's going to set them off? Now? The. The key becomes. And sometimes this hypothesis doesn't get tested for a really long time. Is there a period of time that things are going so well for this person for such a 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. Their ideas keep launching. They have plenty of money in the bank. They're getting award after award. Everyone's applauding them. You're the best, you're a genius, you're this. And the things that go wrong are the little glitches along the way. But by and large, everything is on that forward trajectory. That is a very fortunate and well supplied person. They may be less likely, but. But the argument would make be in narcissism, then that just moves the goalpost because now anything is going to set them up. What do you mean my jet's not ready to go at 1205? It's going to be 1208 instead. You could see that and. But I think that dysregulation piece is a pretty classical part of Narcissistic.

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Yes.

And all of a sudden now let's use the bonus word like the, the client feels gaslit even more. But the, there's a thing that's happening where now it's set back the person's sense of agency and strength because, because their, their, their clinician is. Or their therapist is aligning with the narcissist. Okay, so speak hope and, and applied practice to the person that's in a relationship with somebody who's narcissist.

So when a person is in a relationship with someone who's narcissistic, the most common reactions and experiences we witness are self blame, self doubt, isolation, loneliness, rumination, regret, anxiety, depression, anger. And we also can see a lot of, you know, physiological stuff again the hyper vigilance, all of that we can see apathy like why bother attitude, something called anhedonia. There's really no pleasure out of the stuff that once was just joyful and pleasurable in life. And then we also see even things like poor self care, not eating as well, not sleeping as well. That's what tends to happen to people. It's depressing chips. Okay, it is depressing.

Yeah.

And so it, and what happens then is that the person in the relationship in a way is fading more and more and more and they, they themselves wonder like maybe it is me because I'm the one who sort of stopped taking care of myself and I'm kind of always a down downer. But as they understand that the behavior in the relationship is unacceptable and where it gets tricky is if the partner is very successful. They live in a beautiful home, they get to have lots of great experiences. They all the cars and the kids get to go to the fancy schools and all the stuff right There is a sense of almost guilt. Well I've got all the bells and whistles. Maybe this is it. Like maybe I'm holding out for too much. And there can be a real sense of sense of shame and self blame of I'm still complaining and I have all this stuff. So there's also that can. It's a guilt. It's a guilt. And that's a guilt is a very common reaction in survivors in these relationships. The challenge is though, and this is what makes you narcissistic relationships, such a unique space for the partners. A partner of somebody who's an addict, a partner of somebody Living with a severe mental illness. A partner of somebody living with a dementia partner of live, someone living with a physical illness illness. There's a lot of empathy for that partner. We're like, wow, they're really having to walk a difficult path here of the, the, the ups and downs of their partner who's going through this hard thing. But the partner of someone who's narcissistic doesn't have that because by and large, the world sees the narcissistic partner as a titan, as a winner, as amazing, as helpful, as generous. They paid for, for this one to go get this. And they did that and they picked up the check and they took everyone on a vacation. And they're charming and they're charismatic and they hold court at the table and isn't this all grand? And so the partner, it's what I call sort of the dinner party effect. They're at the dinner party and everyone's laughing at their stories. And even the partner's like, okay, I was wrong. They're a good guy. And the minute the car door closes, it's criticism, it's anger, it's like, like, why did you make me look so bad? Did you really have to bring up that I work with that other company once upon a time, really, the partner's thinking like they didn't even think anything of it. So now the partner feels smaller and smaller and smaller over time. You'll see people in these narcissistic relationships really become silenced because they're afraid anything they say is going to get them into trouble. But the world is often seeing what seems like a really well put together person.

So. So how do you help guide them? Stay or go?

So the stay or go conversation, I tend to be agnostic to that. I say, I'm going to help you whether you stay or go. Because staying or going, there's so many elements there. I mean, one of the most crucial is, is obviously the practical finances, minor children, other logistical stuff.

That's the piece.

Cultural is big. Yeah, cultural role is really big. It may not be permissible in a culture to, to get divorced or you would lose a lot of social support or social status.

Family of origin.

You might lose your family of origin. You know, you may not want to, you know, do the whole family court fandango. There's all of that. Then there are what we call the trauma bonded pieces. These are things, they feel real, but it's things like, I have hope that they can change. I don't want this next person. They're going to Meet to get this better version of them that I, that I created. Right. I'm like, no, no, no. It's just version 1.0 forever. So you really don't need to worry about this. So it's a, there's all these other fears that come as a fear of being alone, like some of the standard existential fears, old fears of abandonment that come up from the idea of a relationship ending. When we talk about more severe narcissism where it's more malignant, exploitative, coercive, people are also afraid what would happen if they did leave. It's a phenomenon called post separation abuse. Meaning where we could see stalking.

Yeah, yeah.

Smear campaigns, spreading of rumors, sharing of inappropriate information, and sharing of confidences that shouldn't be broken. Manipulating minor children, manipulating adult children. You know, hassling people legally through family court. And if the, if the narcissistic partner is more better resourced, they can really, really do a number on someone. So some people are also afraid of that. That, so there's quote, unquote, they're not really staying as much as they're avoiding that horrific outcome.

But one of my friends, I'll just kind of do a parallel. He said, when we're talking about water, use it. He's a nutrition specialist and he says, look, either you have a filter or you are the filter. You know, so you, there's a corollary in how you described it. It's like you can stay, but you become a filter for some toxins.

Oh, yeah, it's more so. In other words, words, it's this. The staying is a slower burn in terms of healing. There's, there's a concept.

Can you fully heal?

Can you. I mean, I guess it comes down to what, what do we mean by flirting? I, I, you ca, if you stay, can you flourish? I think you can in very circumscribed ways.

Yeah, it's super. It's a narrow path because, yeah, as.

I always tell people, if you stay, you can't share your good news with your narcissistic partner. You can't share your bad news with your narcissistic partner. So you kind of got to stick to the indifferent. You're talking about the weather, you're talking about the, you know, the who won the Academy Award. You know, you're talking about, they're building a new restaurant in town. A lot of people say, well, that's not really a relationship. I'm like, no, it's all your relationship ever really was. Now we've just Lifted the conflict out of it.

Talk about your. The deep model.

That is a model. It's just sort of quick acronym rubric for people to remember to not engage in these relationships, especially if they decide to stay or have ongoing contact. And the don't go deep means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain and don't personalize. The mistake people make in narcissistic relationships is they engage as though the narcissistic person is listening with a whole mind. Right. The narcissistic person's already is going to, is listening only in a way that's self serving. So if you're defending yourself, they're going to gaslight. If you're explaining yourself, they're going to.

Gaslight and explain gaslighting.

And gaslighting is, it is a form of emotional abuse where a person's reality, memory, perceptions, experiences are denied. And then the person is told that they are somehow lacking or there's something wrong with that them. Gaslighting is not lying. Right. So lying would be. I never said that. You never saw me there. I've never talked to her. That's lying. Okay. Gaslighting is. I never said that. But you know what? You've become so paranoid since the, our second child was born. You know, you've become so paranoid since Charlie was born. And I really got to wonder like maybe this is some of your cuckoo coming back. That's what makes it gaslighting.

No, I didn't, I. So I, I thought that gaslighting also involved. What do you mean? You know, like you saw me holding hands with somebody. You didn't see me holding hands with somebody.

That's the first part. You gotta have the second part.

You gotta have the second.

You got the second part which is like, okay, are you okay? Like what's up with you?

So it's not like a blatant, right? Lie.

You get weird around your period like this?

Yes.

That's what makes it the gaslight.

Keep going. What are some other subtle forms of gaslighting?

Because you can be.

You can gaslight people and not be a narcissist.

You're, you're, you're, you're, you're too sensitive is a form of gaslighting, right? Because in saying that, what you're saying is there's something wrong with you. You misperceive situations, right? So we're talking and you have a reaction and I'm like, oh my God, you are just too sensitive. That's a gaslight.

Why are you so sensitive?

Why are you so sensitive?

Yeah, boy. I can't say anything.

I can't say anything. That's a gaslight.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I. I think I kind of had the term a little misconstrued here, so.

A lot of people do.

Yeah, people do.

Yeah.

I thought it was a manipulation of someone's truth.

No, no, no, no.

Manipulation.

It's a manipulation. It's a manipulation of truth, but also the doubling. In fact, Theo Dorpat, who was a psychiatrist who wrote about this a long time ago, he called it the double whammy. It's not just that manipulation of reality, it's then the further manipulation of reality by dissembling the other person. You're not nuts.

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Man. Psychology is complicated, isn't it?

Complicated, but it's also quite simple, Right? Like, in a way, I hate to say it, but destroying a person's psyche is a pretty straightforward process.

Oh, that. I.

And narcissistic people have that wired.

Yeah. From that lens. Yes. And, you know the old adage like you got to tear them down to build them up. And I think it's really easy to tear someone down but really hard to build someone back up. And you got to be very, very, very skilled if you're going to adopt that model for coaching or whatever. By the way, I think it's a terrible model.

I personally think, as a psychologist, I think it's especially trauma informed. I'm not a fan. I am definitely not a fan. And I don't think there's a single piece of trauma literature that, you know. I think the way a trauma informed model would be is that if someone is torn down, we can build them back up, but we should not intentionally set out to tear them down. If you think about Victor Frankl. Right. Viktor Frankl, built like, now, kids, do not go out seeking suffering on your own. It will find you. So don't go make a mess of your life to try to test this out.

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Yeah. So just let me put sort of the. The qualifier in there. There are different forms of narcissism. The sort of. The big three are grandiose, vulnerable, and malignant narcissism. Right. There's some other subtypes, so if you stick with the big three. Grandiose narcissism is that arrogant, charming, charismatic. Look at me. I'm so great, I'm gonna. I'm the king of everything. That's the grandiose narcissist. The malignant narcissist is sort of that dark tetrad. The sort of the overlap of psychopathy, narcissism, sadism, and Machiavellianism.

Wild. Okay? And vulnerable narcissism.

So vulnerable narcissism, this is the money shot because we don't talk about this enough. And even the formulations on vulnerable narcissism, they've really only been discussed in earnest for about the past 20 years. Miller, Pinkus, Running Stam, these are the researchers in this space.

The most cunning of them all.

Cunning and not cunning. The vulnerable narcissists are who end up in our offices because the vulnerable narcissistic folks are more likely. They don't present with the charm and the charisma and the. And the dazzle. They actually are more often to present as failure to launch passive aggressive, victimized, aggrieved and disenfranchised. And that's what makes them dangerous? Because they still have the entitlement, the selfishness, the disregulation. This is every Internet traffic control. This is a dangerous. I actually think in some ways the vulnerable narcissists are every bit as dangerous as the malignant narcissist. And since these subtypes can combine, malignant vulnerable narcissists are the most dangerous people in the world. And I want to say one piece about gender narcissism. In all forms of narcissism, men more often than women accept vulnerable narcissism. And that's equal across genders. Vulnerable, vulnerable narcissism, equal men and women, but malignant and grandiose. I think girls are actually still to this day told to sort of dial it down a little bit in terms of, you know, the, you know, the even like on the field, the kind of. If I can curse the talking and stuff like that. Girls are tend not to be socialized to do that as much. Nor do girls tend to lean into. Into behaviors like physical bullying and physical intimidation. That stuff is probably going to code more towards grandiose and malignant narcissism. Those are traits and qualities of that are more tolerated in men. Whereas the vulnerable narcissism that, that, that patterning can. Is actually experienced in both men and women. And most clients I've worked with who've had narcissistic mothers, almost, almost without exception, it's been a vulnerable narcissistic.

I wrote a white paper for a pro team that I was working with on how to hand. I didn't want to call it borderline or narcissism. I said how to handle difficult personalities. And it was like describing what they are and then ways to work with it. Oh my goodness. I could have used your insights in that, you know, so there, there might be a consulting gig in here for the two of us to be able to do something fun there. Okay. Why more men than women?

So it's, it's. I think a lot of it is socialization. I think a lot of it goes back to. It's a mistake we're still making. We still don't socialize emotional expression sufficiently in men and boys. We still pathologize the expression of vomiting vulnerable emotion. And men and boys. That's got to go somewhere. Yeah, right. And so. And it can create that sense of shame. And this if there's going to do. If there's one other than protecting all children from trauma. If we did that, we'd probably erase narcissism. But until when I, we're not doing that on my watch. I wish we could. I'd be out of a job. All of us would be out of a job.

Yeah.

But in the absence of that, creating many, many more experiences for boys, especially starting in men middle school, to be more emotionally vulnerable. I think that the little guys, they're able to do it like they, they little boys can be emotionally vulnerable and available. You hit those hormones and what we still have not figured out is how to bridge that gap into puberty where sexuality and emotions and hormones and all that are raging and that we as a culture do not. I don't think any culture does it well hold spirit space for men and boys to be vulnerable without pathologizing them as weak and without that vent. I do think that the grandiose and the malignant narcissism are more likely than to be expressed. The girls are allowed amongst peers with other adults to be able to express emotion. And I'm using a binary gender characterization because that's the research we've got.

Very cool. I want to introduce you to. Very cool, very scary, very cool. How clearly you are. Yeah. I want to introduce you to Scott Barry Kaufman's work, cognitive psychologist that just released a book on this Good mind, good sound. Bit of research on victimhood.

Yep.

Any points of vulnerable as kind of the, the archetype of it. So look, I could go on and on. This is great.

Thank you. We have to do it again.

I really enjoyed all of this, so thank you for the clarity of, of thinking the frameworks you're working from. And I loved your book. I love that you also dedicated it to your mom. If you had one to three books that you would hope people would read, what would they be?

It would be Trauma and Repair by Judith Herman. That, that's, that's a given, I would say. Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl and Existence by Rollo May.

Well done. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Brilliant.

Thank you so much. It was so lovely. It's so such a fascinating conversation. I really appreciated this opportunity. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Sahil Bloom, investor, writer and creator of the Curiosity Chronicle. In this high energy conversation, Sahil shares the simple frameworks and mental models that helped him go from burnout and pressure to purpose and play. It's a fresh take on ambition, identity and redefining success. Join US on Wednesday, August 6, 19, 9am Pacific for this insightful conversation.

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