Why Most Relationships Fail (And How to Break the Cycle) — Yung Pueblo

When you get into a relationship, you are going to see everything you're good at and everything you're not good at. And it's going to be devastatingly clear. You kind of have to embrace the journey.

What are the three things that you need to know to love better?

I think if you feel like you're in a rut, especially within yourself and your relationship, you need to figure out a way to break the pattern. And I think in the act of doing something new, you can see yourself a little bit differently and see hopefully the thing that you've been ignoring that you know you probably should do.

Welcome back. Or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I AM your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high performance psychologist. Now, the idea behind these conversations is simple. To sit with the extraordinaries and to learn to really learn about how they work from the inside out.

So the key to solving any argument is a very specific type of compassion where you can step outside of your perspective to see, see the perspective of another person.

Diego Perez, known as the pen name Young Pueblo, is a meditator, best selling author and modern day wisdom teacher whose work is grounded in lived experience. In this conversation, he opens up about hitting rock bottom and the journey of rebuilding his life from the inside out.

When I got to college, I started just using drugs and alcohol as a way to get away from myself as fast as possible. But I was also slowly killing myself.

We explore what the work really looks like and how emotional strength is built through repetition and honesty.

When you start really paying attention to your emotional history, there's going to be a lot of things in there that you like and that you don't like. So moving into that with self acceptance feels really important.

As you listen, the invitation here is to reflect on your own patterns. What are the things that you need to let go of and what are the things you need to learn now? With that, let's jump into this week's conversation with Young Pueblo. All right, Young Pueblo. Can I call you Diego?

Diego's just fine.

I know you as Young Pueblo. I've studied your work, I've been a student of your writings, your poetry, like how you communicate. It's beautiful.

Thank you. Thank you. It's an honor to be here. I've been looking forward to this because I've been watching your clips, I've been wondering, watching what you've been giving to the Internet and it's been wonderful. So I'VE been looking forward to this moment.

Am I feeding the beast, the monster, or are we creating a nice little corner of.

Honestly, you're giving me moments. You're giving me moments of deeper thought. So I'm appreciating that.

That's good.

Yeah.

Coming from you. And I do want to celebrate your book. The title, how to Love Better. The number of times that you say love is is cool, you know, so I'd love to start a little bit with just your high note on what love is. And I think it's almost an unfair question because of how. How dimensional.

Yeah.

You've captured love and. And then. But you've been extraordinarily concrete on ways to build the way that we love.

That's right.

Self and other. And so I'm looking forward to all that. So maybe before I ask you this big question about love is can we go back and, like, understand?

Sure.

How you got there. Right.

Happy. Okay.

So what do I need to understand to know you.

So I think to first understand I was really far away from love, especially from loving myself. I felt like a. A foreigner in my own body.

How old are we talking about?

I think from. Probably from like, 13 to 23. When I hit rock bottom, it was a time where I was so. Just lost. Like, I didn't know why I was feeling what I was feeling. And now when I look back on it, I can see that, you know, I was originally born in Ecuador. My family immigrated to the United States when I was about four years old. When. When we got here, it was challenging because we were stuck in this poverty trap. My mom, she cleaned houses. My dad worked in a supermarket. And it was honestly just a constant struggle where they were trying to figure out how to pay for the rent. And I was confused by the constant tension in the home. Like, I didn't know if my parents really loved each other because they were always fighting.

Now, now what age are we talking about?

We're talking about from, you know, from 4 to 13. So all these patterns are being imprinted in me.

You know, over that you were watching. Is this. Is this what adulting looks like? Is this the tension that I'm growing?

Is this what everyone's going like? Are we all, like, in this struggle? And it was challenging to see how much fear my parents had because every month it was the same thing over and over. Like, putting food in the fridge, paying for the rent, and unknowing. To me, I just, you know, all these patterns of a scarcity mindset. A, you know, this Fear, this anxiety kept building over time, and. And this was, you know, very. Like, we're talking the 90s. We're very pre wellness. So therapy wasn't as popular as it is now. You know, I didn't know anybody who was meditating, so I had no. No concept of mental health. And as I got older, what it sort of snowballed into was these really unhealthy patterns, especially when I got to university, even before that.

Right. Like in the high school years.

Yeah, in the high school years, too. There was. I think it would come out as a. A very sort of like, rough outer shell where I would have my friends, but I think I would just be too rough with the people who were near me in the sense of, like, you know, jokes were too heavy, or there was just no kindness in the way that I was sort of moving through. And when I got to college, that became this, like, you know, I started just using drugs and alcohol as a way to get away from myself as fast as possible. And, you know, it worked. I was very far away from myself, but I was also slowly killing myself.

You give me hope in that way about reminding us, when you do the work, you can become, and I don't say this loosely, this is not a bumper sticker, but when you do the work, quote, unquote, the work, you can become whoever you want to become.

Truly. Yeah.

It's so true. Right. And I'm not saying you become a rock star. I don't mean that because maybe your music isn't amazing, but you can definitely play rock music. I feel like you play jazz. I'm using metaphors here. But you can become whoever you want to become. If you want to be a kind person that comes from a hard exterior shell, you can return back home to a place of innocence and strength and kindness. And if you wanted to.

That's so interesting, because in my rock bottom moment in the summer of 2011, I remember when I was on the floor. I was. You know, my body was just almost like in between life and death. Like, I had filled myself with so many drugs that I could feel my heart losing it. But I remember in that moment, my mind kept going to how I had not only wasted the opportunity my parents had worked so hard to give me, but I wanted to switch my identity. I wanted to be a helper. And I was thinking back to the moments where, when I was in the nonprofit world and I had a job as a. When I was a teenager and how, you know, I was helping organize schools and, like, helping empower people. And I was like, why am I so far from that right now? How can I go back to not necessarily the same work, but helping people in some ways? And it's funny because you mentioned that identity shift, because that I was like, well, before I can even do that, I need to help myself.

Yeah.

And I need to start going on long walks. I need to stop doing all the drugs. I need to start paying attention to my emotions. Just like the basics, literally.

Yeah. Which is just like anything. Like, even elite athletes, I think, like, the higher up you go in performance worlds, the more connection to the basics those performers are.

Yeah.

So because they understand, you need to have the foundations tuned.

Right.

And then you can. Then you can artistically play jazz on whatever canvas is yours. But you knew at that moment, I have to. I have to create some foundations. And as you're speaking and bringing me back into that part of your life, I hear it in your voice. Do you feel it in. In the way that you're expressing it?

Yeah. I feel like it's. In some ways, it almost feels like a second life, but it also still feels tender because I remember, like, being in that moment and literally, like, crying for another opportunity, crying for another chance, because I felt like, like I was dying. I mean, I talked to a doctor later, and she. After I described what I was feeling to her, she was like, oh, it sounded like a mild heart attack. And, you know, I was 23.

And so what is the emotion that's under the surface for you right now when you go.

It's just how bloody close I was.

You know, like, so is that. Is that a fear or is that a sadness? Is it something else?

It's more like a wake up call. Like, it feels. It's sort of like an empowered fear. It's like, whoa, like, you skated so close. And fortunately, I was able to just make a hard turn, you know, a hard turn away from this life and take to me. Some people sometimes ask me, like, how did you know what to do? Well, I didn't know what to do. I just knew what got me there. I knew that lying to myself was a major problem. I knew that running away from my emotions was why I was using drugs. And I knew that I had to start becoming friends with my body. I needed to start going on long walks, signing up to a gym, you know, going hiking in the Blue Hills Mountain in Boston, these simple little things. And over time, this, like, new set of habits that I was building just, like, started opening a door to a new chapter.

I Think the part that I just want to circle around one more time is that you're not just telling a story right now and I'm listening. And it feels surgical or clever or celebratory of your pain. Like you're you, you still have it embodied. You're connected to the pain. And a big effort that, that you took in your writings of your most recent book is commit to healing.

Yeah.

And so I think what I just want to circle around is that healing doesn't necessarily mean I'm free from it.

Yeah.

It means that I'm on a path and it holds less charge and it doesn't force me towards blinded decisions and choices. It's not as gripping. My pain and trauma or whatever is not gripping me in a way that my choices feel invisible or immutable. You're still connected to it totally.

And the language that I would use is, you know that healing has happened when the intensity of the reaction has decreased.

Yeah, that's it.

It's like.

And I think a cool way to think about that is like, have you lost anyone in your life?

Yeah, a few people.

Yeah. And so when you go to, when I go to a funeral, like I'm flooded with the emotion and then, you know, like a year goes by or whatever. Then there's no, there's no number of days where.

Yeah.

You know, and then it's like I think of them in more of a full hearted way as opposed to like a grief only way.

Right.

Yeah. So that's the way I think about it.

It's just so interesting because in the past it didn't really feel like I had an option. Like it felt like the impulsiveness, those reactions would just be so quick where, you know, the mind would roar into anger, roar into fear or anxiety, whatever it was. But over time, when I, you know, a year after I had that rock bottom moment when I started meditating, I started seeing that there was a new space for choice that was slowly appearing in my mind. And also simultaneously over time, not only was I able to pick new sort of routes of action, but I also started seeing that the fear that I once used to run away from, I would still feel it from time to time, but it just wasn't as big of a storm as it used to be. Same thing with anxiety and all the other sort of like heavy emotions that used to feel quite debilitating.

And that's why I'm circling around it one more time here because I'm listening to your story and experience and I'm Feeling how you are choosing your words right now and the embodied emotions that are coming with it. So how are you not overrun by the emotions that you're feeling in this moment? Is it because they're just smaller because you've done all the work, or are you making some choices that are below the surface to manage your no feelings and emotions?

That's a really good question, I think. You know, I mean, whenever I hear the term doing the work, it's so. It's a good term, but it's also very vague.

Yeah. I feel like you and I need to say, what does work mean?

Yeah, I think, well, there's a few things that I do. So whenever I feel, you know, heightened sensations in my body, like, I'm just very aware because I've spent so many hours meditating. Like, I try not to lose touch with what I'm feeling. And that will literally be at the sensation level. So, you know, I can be aware of my breath. I can feel, you know, just like everything that's happening in my skin or my hands. And even if I'm, you know, if I'm about to go on stage or talk or something like that, I'll have a few moments where I can just feel myself. And in the act of feeling myself, it recalibrates my equanimity. It almost like helps recalibrate my mind to a sense of balance. So, you know, some anxiety may be there, some fear may be there, and I feel it. But there's. This is a thing about the black and white thinking that a lot of people sort of experience is like either you suppress it or express it. But what I've learned over meditating is you can just observe it.

Yeah, cool. Black and white thinking is considered a cognitive distortion. There's about 11, 7 to 11, depending on, you know, the. The researcher that you might follow. So black and white thinking is a cognitive distortion, meaning it's a distorted way of using your mind. So I don't know anything that's actually black or white. There's all these shades. So your point about if I observe it, you get in tune with the actual shades of whatever.

Yeah, let me see what's happening in there.

Yeah. And then over time, do the work. Once you observe, you don't have to critique it. You can just kind of go with it. And I think the fear is that, and it's showing up in this conversation that you could have been overwhelmed by the going back to trauma experiences in your life and like, or hard times in your moment, your life and feeling Feel like, oh, I don't want to go all the way there because I might open up the chasm and then just kind of fall into a thousand pieces. Can I actually manage the emotions in this conversation? Yeah, if you practice it, you can just do just fine with them.

You know, there's also this, there's a little bit of joy that I've learned over time to just be able to feel what's uncomfortable. It's like, oh, I don't want to talk about this all the time. Right. It's like a really hard moment in my life, but it's part of the story. It's why I've been able to write a few books. It's why I even sought meditation. So it makes sense to be able to give people a more holistic picture of where I'm coming from. But there's a little bit of joy in building that strength to be able to say, this is what happened, it was dark, it was bad, and I wish that upon no one. And fortunately I'm still here to talk about it.

Why do you wish it upon no one?

I think because sometimes people get a little confused in the wellness world where they think they need to have a rock bottom moment to be able to sort of like wake up and be a new version of themselves. But I've seen people transform such a vast, you know, like just a, a wide variety of experiences. Like, I think my, my wife is the perfect example where she got into this meditation journey and was very interested in, you know, cultivating her mind and taking herself to the mental gym. But she didn't have a rock bottom moment. She just felt like, you know, she could learn some more skills.

Yeah, that's cool. I, I think when I'm reading your work, I'm like, oh, this is Buddhism, you know, philosophy. Cleverly and deeply and richly tuned to loving relationships, self and others.

Totally. You hit it on the dot. It's a, you know, and I, I credit the Buddha oftentimes in all of my, all of my work. So, like the basis, I try to understand life in the sort of the little micro moments of life and relationships and just like how you're moving about through life from this perspective of understanding how are attachments making things quite difficult for me.

Yeah.

And then so much stems from that. When you look at it from different lenses.

What were your core attachments that you were working on? Actually pause my question and go to just clarifying what attachment means.

Yeah. Because I think, you know, when I, when I write about attachments and talk about attachments. I'm talking about, like, old school attachments. I'm talking about, you know, when the Buddha was understanding his. What was holding him back from liberation? It was this deep craving to have things exist in a certain way. And this, you know, almost this control that would. That's the way attachments manifest in daily life is through this, you know, craving to control so you can be attached to anything. And I think that's what I notice in my mind is, like, when I think about what am I attached to? It's just whatever my mind is grabbing. My mind can grab so many things and then build tension, build agitation, build stress. Stress, build anxiety. And in the act of doing the opposite, you know, the opposite of attachment is embracing change. Then you get some freedom.

There you go. And so you can attach to identity. You can ego. You can attach to clothes and cars and watch and a thing. And you can.

You can get attached to thinking you're the best person ever. You can get attached to thinking you're the worst person ever. Yeah, it can go in a lot of different ways.

Good news, bad news. In the Zen parable, you know this one, the monk says to the student, good news or bad news? Bad news is like falling through the sky without anything to grasp or hold on to.

Yeah.

Good news, there's no bottom.

I actually haven't heard that one. That's. That's really good. Right?

Like, so that to me, sums up attachment.

Yeah.

You want to grasp because you're falling. And that falling is like an unpredictable, unknown moment that's always emerging. Like, if there's just something I can hold on to that feels sturdy and safe to allow me to be a little bit better in what might unfold in this next moment. And I get it. Me too. And what I've learned from best in the world, and I hear it from you, is that there's a love affair with me not knowing how this is going to go and if I can be totally excited and in love with, like, embracing this unknown excitement.

Yeah.

As opposed to being terrified of this unknown thing that could happen in a negative way. That is a tuning of the mind. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Mack Weldon. If you've been a community member here at Finding Mastery for a while now, you know our position on confidence. It's built from the inside out. It's not about flash. It's about really knowing who you are and showing up with clarity and conviction and purpose and substance. And that's why I'm so bought in with what Mack Weldon is doing. They make clothes for men who live that same philosophy. Understated, sharp, grounded in quality. Pieces that don't scream for attention, but quietly say, I've got this. Like their Latitude Bomber, it's clean, it's simple, it travels well. Whether I'm heading to work with an organization or just grabbing dinner. They're great and they're silver denim jeans. It's this elevated fit, this great fabric, and somehow they feel broken in from day one. They did a nice job there. And what stands out most to me is their mindset. Mack Weldon believes, quote, knowing is more important than showing. That resonates deeply with what we're trying to do here at Finding Mastery. Working from the inside out. And if that aligns with how you want to move through the world, I'd encourage you to go check them out. Head to mackwelden.com and use the code Finding Mastery for 20% off your first order of $100 or more. Again, use the code FindingMastery@mackwelden.com for 20% off your first order Of $100 or more. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars and. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM Stuart, he loves them so much, I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly.

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What's the catch?

Yeah, right?

Yeah.

Okay. And they. That's what they kind of look at. And they go, well, yeah. And then I go, okay, let's play it out. Because there's. There's a lot of good that comes. And let's play it out. Every time you touch the ball, you're guaranteed to win. And they go, oh, man, hold on. That sounds boring.

Yeah, yeah.

So in other words, you like the unknown. You like that. And they go, I guess I do. It's this light bulb moment that comes on when you frame, you know. And so I think you like the unknown now.

Yeah, I think that's what I saw was one of my struggles throughout my whole life was really not being aware that the mind is craving a very static and pleasurable reality. And it's always.

Yeah, cool way to say it.

It's always looking for things that I like to always be the same. And, you know, I like this person, my mom and dad, and never want them to die and, you know, all the, you know, sort of keeping all the pieces of the pleasurable life together, but reality will never give you that. Not only does that create tension in my mind to try to just grab and hold and, you know, sort of live in this very attached mode. But when I try to do the opposite, and over the years I've been training myself to do the opposite, what happens is that you unlock vast new potentials.

What is the opposite?

The opposite is literally embracing change to truly embrace and flow with the changes that are happening.

And that means framing change as something that I'm looking forward to as opposed to Something that is driving me nuts.

Or just simply something that you accept.

Okay, so not, not looking forward to, but accepting the change is part of it.

This is true.

Okay, so that, so let's. Now we're going to get into the work so you can have an idea. Let's call it an intellectual idea. Right. Like oh, I get why that makes sense. And then, then like, oh, I get that I should hold my hands this way to catch a ball consistently. I get it intellectually. Now it has to get embodied. It has to get into the system.

And don't you do it through repetition.

Yeah, that's exactly. So that's where I'm going. So what is your quote unquote work?

Yeah.

That you've done that you can point us to.

This is so funny. So that's, that's why I'm so glad that we're having this conversation because you, you're going to get it more than others. And I've been slowly over time when I talk about meditation, I've been using this sort of this idea of taking yourself to the mental gym.

Yeah, I heard you.

Where you have all these qualities. These qualities are embedded in your mind. Right. But specifically the quality of non reaction, the quality of compassion, the quality of awareness. You can make them stronger over time if you intentionally build them. And that's what I've learned to do. You know, I've been meditating. Seriously. I did my first silent 10 day course in 2012. I started meditating two hours a day in 2015. And I've been going to many, many retreats in the same tradition, in the Goenka of a Passana tradition. And it's helped me profoundly. But I've noticed that it's like literally built these muscles over time where it becomes just so much easier for me to feel what's true, to be able to feel that change that's happening in my body. And that's why it's not just like an intellectual understanding. Like yeah, I know change is happening intellectually, but now let me feel it so I can feel that truth. And now I can distinctly tell when I'm becoming attached because I can feel the tension and when I'm just embracing change because I'm connected to it.

So let's do kind of the math of it. So intellectual idea. I'd like to live this way. Happier, more joyful, more peaceful. Yeah, whatever, whatever. The language. I don't think people, when you ask people like what do you want? And they go, I just want to be happy. I don't I?

Yeah, let's. That. Yeah, I can't.

It doesn't work for me. Like, yeah, there's more, way more to it. Okay, let's say you've got some sort of language that. On how you want to quote, unquote, be or do something even. And then for you, vipassana meditation is the practice of becoming one, more aware, so observing, and two, practicing how to work with that sensation that comes with emotions.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think the Buddha, you know, when. When he became enlightened and understood reality, one thing that he mentioned was that, you know, everything that arises on the mind arises with sensations. And it's really, really true. Like, you think of something, it creates sensations on the body. You, you know, have a think about the future, think about the past, you have a dream. Like, sensations are always connected to the entirety of the mind.

And let me just pause because the sensation that you're talking about is like, your heart might beat a little bit faster. Your, Your breathing rate might change, your skin might feel a little more dual.

We're talking, we're talking about like mundane sensations.

Yeah, yeah.

Nothing, nothing, nothing special or magical.

But with a lot of those sensations, you now you're in like this high pressure, sympathetic, dominant fight or flight experience. But there's the mundane little subtle shifts, and then there's that kind of big flood.

Yeah, there's a. There's a wide range of sensations. Some of them very intense, others less so, some of them more subtle, some of them more gross. And what you learn over time is to, instead of just immediately reacting to them, just let me, Let me observe, let me watch them.

So when you and I were having the conversation about revisiting. Your imagination is rich.

Right?

You create beautiful movies that have lots of nuances and details. So people that have that, when they go back into hard moments, the movie is so vibrant and real that you will feel something totally. Okay.

Yeah.

So I was listening. So there was very subtle changes in pupil skin tone and voice. So how did you go back to, like this is now pointing to. The evidence of your work is that you are managing yourself in that moment to not be run by the emotion, but to work well with it. What were you doing?

I think it's because. So this is. I spent a lot of time meditating, so I've probably meditated somewhere between 13 and 14,000 hours. And even when we're in conversation, I'm listening to you, but there's enough space in my mind where I can also feel myself. I'm just feeling what's happening in my body and you know, when I look at my hand, my hand looks static, but it doesn't feel static to me. It feels like wavelets. It's like changing very quickly. It almost feels like if you were to pour a very fresh glass of Coca Cola and you look at the fizzy bubbles right at the top, that's what most of my body feels like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amazing. And then with that awareness, you're just observing. Ooh, I've got a bunch of fizziness going on.

What's happening here? I feel the heat. I feel.

What do you do with it? Because. Okay, I'm going to say something unpopular.

Yeah.

And probably jarring to you. Okay.

Yeah.

Is that awareness alone is not enough?

No, of course not.

Okay. Not jarring. I feel like the mindfulness meditation world can get a little jarred. Like I, I say you need awareness plus skills.

Yeah. And I'll call it awareness plus wisdom.

Okay. There you go.

Yeah. Okay.

So then I'm just pointing to the skill here.

Yeah.

How are you managing yourself? Because if one of the great public fears is going on stage and then sharing your ideas, because there's a deep vulnerability to be kicked out of the tribe, to be rejected, not accepted, to be not good enough in the eyes of others. Great, great, great fear for people. And so we activate and then becomes almost overwhelming to access the thoughts and feelings that we want to convey. And so it's like this snake eating its tail experience for so many people. I'm aware that my heart is pounding, I'm sweating under whatever. I'm aware it's not enough. Actually, that could be problematic. So. So just go one more time to the skills.

Yeah.

How do you manage when you feel your body switching on?

Yeah, I think when I'm really is. I'm not just aware of the tone of the sensation, but I'm aware of that truth, whether it's at the intellectual level or the body level, that all of this is impermanent. So I'm like feeling everything that's happening with this deep understanding that, like this is going to change. So, yeah, it's hard right now, but it's not going to last forever. I have so much experience of observing so many sensations over time. There are some hard ones, some sweet ones, some, you know, whatever they could be, but they all in time evaporate. And now what that does, I think something that Western psychology is still understanding is that these heavily rooted patterns, right. When they come up to the surface and you're like literally feeling them in your sensations, they, if you're able to hold them with this mindset of just really observing them, they evaporate.

That's right.

Right. So these, there's literal unbinding that that happens where you know, you can have a pattern that's so heavily knotted and it feels so, so quickly impulsive that you don't have control over it. But over time, when you're able to just hold it as it is, like what I do is, you know, I just let it be like, I let it be like I'm not fighting it, I'm not trying to make it last longer. I'm not trying to, you know, make it disappear. I'm just like, oh, that's happening.

Oh, there it is.

Yeah.

And there's ample research that just observing, observing, naming an emotion diffuses the intensity of it. So it's pretty cool. I mean, that's something that's been around a long time.

Yeah.

All right, awesome. I love this part of the conversation.

Yeah. That was sick. Thank you for leading us through that. That was really cool.

And the wisdom bit is your reference point for how the world and you work so with enough, enough time under tension to observe non judgmentally, you get these moments of insight. Ah, yeah, wait. And then enough insights, you go, oh, wait, that's how this works. So your backstop is wisdom.

Totally. And I think this is what we, I feel like the Western psychology and the sort of the world of the Buddhist teaching and I would sort of abstain from using the word mindfulness. They still need to, you know, better understand each other. Because I think one, when the Buddhist teaching came to the west and it over time became what we know now know as mindfulness. Right. There is a lot of misunderstanding that happens where people think about it as just awareness. But there's so much more to the teaching and I think, yeah, a lot can get lost pretty easily when, you know, things are shipped around the world.

Very cool.

Yeah.

Before we get into the framework of kind of your point of view or your hope and ambition for your book, when somebody says, oh God, they're talking about meditation again, like I want to understand it. Like I get it. I've read the research and my partner's doing it and like she's better for it, you know, or he's better for it and. But I just can't do it.

Yeah, yeah.

I've got a reflexive thing that I say, but I would love to hear how you respond to that critique or that statement.

Yeah. People often say I'm just bad at it. I'm like, yeah, of course. Yeah, I'm bad at it too. That's why we train. You don't just go and run a marathon. You don't just decide, oh, I'm going to learn Spanish, and then you know Spanish the next day. Now all of it requires training and the mind requires training too. So if you want a little more peace, if you want a little more awareness, if you want to cultivate your compassion and your non reaction, you got to put time in. It's not just going to come out of nowhere. Like, if you want happiness, you have to cultivate the mind to gear it towards that.

Couldn't have said it more cleanly. It's. I think that that idea. I don't think I finished ringing the bell earlier in the conversation when I said whatever you want, whether it's happiness or peace or whatever, it starts with a beautiful idea about what you want and then go to work. And the work that you're pointing to is observing your inner life to be more clear and tuned to what's actually happening. So now you're working in reality. And when you do that sitting on a pillow or laying down, whatever it might be, then you can do it more easily in kind of the waking moments, totally in the rhythms of life, you know.

And I'm really curious since you know this world so well in terms of like the, you know, the professional athletes. So I've learned through meditating that I've. I've developed a new sense of freedom around feeling like, okay, more is possible because my mind just feels more open. I can shoot for higher goals, but I'm learning how to be far more strategic in putting energy towards a goal without putting tension into it. There's a subtlety there so that I can like work hard towards a goal without being devastatingly attached to it. And I found that there's just like way more opportunities for success by moving in this like sort of subtle little.

Gray field, you know, I think I was listening and nodding to everything. And then I loved when you used the word tension. I was like, wait, hold on. What does he mean by that? Because I think the tension is where unlock takes place. And so I'm really interested in those moments of tension and. But then you added it to the tension of attachment. And I go, oh, well, that's where. So that's what you're working from? Yeah. So the attachment, like in this example, I am what I do, and if I don't do it, well, yeah, I am not anything.

I know, yeah.

So that. That part is obviously problematic.

Totally.

You know, it is the water that young performers drink.

Yeah.

Because the community creates a well of conversations around, hey, your upcoming performance. This how you doing? Or oh, I caught you in that whatever game. Or that other performance. Like, last week, you were amazing. Like, and it's not about, hey, I saw how kind you were to somebody, or, wow, you are a really happy person. Can you tell me more or less? You know, even sometimes it's not about grades. You know, as a young student, it's about performance, especially when people are exceptional.

Right.

So then there's the identity foreclosure. I am what I do. And it's one of the more dangerous paths for performers. You know, young, exceptional performers. So how do I kind of like, respond to it? Is that I love tension.

Yeah.

There's something really special when I'm sitting and meditating and my hips are on fire.

Yeah.

And my mind just wants to relieve from that and. Or like, I'm just. There's a silver war that's happening inside of me. That tension is like, great. Hold on. It gives me something to bounce up against. And then I have a choice to make. And I love that tension. I think that's where the unlocks happen.

Totally.

So attachment problematic tension. Amazing.

Ah, yes. So I. Yeah, that's. That's where I like learning on different vocabulary. So I would just call it something that's unpleasant. Like, a lot of times when I'm doing there, there are aspects of work that are a little unpleasant, and I just accept them for what they are. But I'm moving. I'm intentionally moving towards it.

Yeah.

Because it just has to get done.

Yeah. So elite athletes will warm up for. I'll call it 35, 45. Sometimes, you know, an hour to get 12 minutes of real work in.

Wow.

You know, like. And I'm being dramatic in there. But sprinters, it's not uncommon that most of their kind of warmup is to get to sometimes seconds of intense work.

Yeah.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science, developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code Finding Mastery 20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I X G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20@felixgray.com for 20% off. Finding Mastery is brought to you by remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focus thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps. It's intentionally built for deep work so there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates to help you be more effective. Effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me, you know, anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well. Stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you want to slow down, if you want to work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your Paper Pro today. All right, awesome. Do you think we need to define or describe your meditation style? Do you think that's useful before we get into, like, the structure of love?

I think just that it's a, you know, it's a tradition that I really respect. I think one thing that I try to be really consistent about is letting people know. Like, I. I really benefit from meditating. I think what's wonderful about the time that we live in is that there are just so many different modalities that can give you a ton of help, that can just meet you where you're at, meet your conditioning where it's at. Because the style that I meditate in, it's powerful, but it's also quite difficult. So it's not necessarily for everybody, it's for a lot of people. But it.

Do you want to describe it quickly?

Yes.

I come from a Zazen or Soto tradition.

Yeah. So this is so the tradition, the Vipassana tradition I meditate in, it's from the U Bakin lineage and it originates from Burma, you know, comes from the Buddhist teaching, but it was kept in Burma for thousands of years. And it's really sort of focused around the body sensations and you go away to these silent 10 day retreats to learn the technique. And since then, you know, I've gone to many of the 10 days and I've done, you know, 20, 30, 45 days. I have a 60 day retreat coming up. The first one I'll do of those 60 day.

Consecutive.

Yeah, consecutive silent. No, no phone.

60 day noble silent retreat.

Yeah, totally.

Go.

You're going to meditating 11 hours a day.

That's a training camp.

It's training, man. And it's, and it's, you know, it's funny because I was just with a bunch of my fellow meditators in Idaho, all these people who, who put so much time into cultivating their minds and they're such kind, sweet people. They don't, you know, they don't have podcasts, they don't write books. They're just like good people living their, their lives. They. But these guys are professional meditators. You know, like there's a lot of, a lot of people meditate and I'm glad that there is such a wide range of sort of the entry point for people. But like these people are up there with like the point like oh, 1% of meditators because of how, how hard they can go.

So let's go back. You're looking for peace in your, in your existence or like I started looking.

For peace and I.

Or is it love? I don't know.

I look for wisdom. I think that's what that's my driving force is, is more like deepening. Like the main thing that I'm learning in this life is change. I'm learning how to embrace change, learning where I fight change and learning how I can just better move with it over time.

Okay. Yeah, brilliant. And just to be uber concrete, your. That's what, quote unquote, high performance looks like. You Living a great life. The. The model that you have in your mind is like, I'm eloquent with change.

Yeah. I think that's. That's just like the. The. Not only the key to success in terms of like writing and letting. Letting whatever happens flow out.

Yeah.

And also just like the key to peace in life is like. It's like, oh, what I want it to happen isn't happening. That's okay.

Yeah. So, yeah. I love that, like, when I set a goal and it doesn't work or I've got plans and it's not going according to plan and now I'm upset because I didn't get what I wanted. I'm like, hold on.

And that's.

Let's pivot and adjust and be eloquent and like, let's be our. We're nodding our heads.

No 100%. And that's what I was trying to sort of get to earlier was when you are able to sort of work towards a goal with energy, with flow, you don't get what you want sometimes, but then you just. You don't cry about it. You just go back to the drawing board, you re. Strategize and you're like, how can I do this better?

Yeah. And if it was. If it was that easy, we'd probably get bored back to that other. Okay. And then. So your training is meditation.

Yeah.

You also are probably have some form of training to write, you know, so you've probably got a technical training and you've got a mental training.

Yeah.

Set of practices. And we don't need to get into the details of the writing bit, but is it a daily practice for technical training for writing and a daily practice for psychological mental wisdom practices?

The. It's a daily training for meditating. Like I do two hours a day, no matter what, and meditating every day is literally the best investment that I've ever made. Better than the s and P500.

Yeah. Right.

Like the returns are massive.

Yeah. A thousand percent. And think about this. This is also for you and also for the listener, is that if you. You are. Your most amazing investment you can make. Because when you are tuned, you are the pebble in your pond that can have radical ripples. And if you think about you as a. Making that investment in your quality of your family, quality of your business relationships, quality of whatever, like it will outstrip any other financial investment or time investment that you can make. It is the one.

No, it totally is. And that's what. When I started meditating, the original focus was Personal development was like, I need to come out of this sadness. I need to come out of this anxiety. Let me work on myself. But then I was totally surprised that as soon as I started meditating and spending time on myself, it started opening new chapters in all of my relationships. And I started seeing that as I learned to embrace change, I was understanding. Okay, previously, my relationship was a fearful one with change, where I was scared of it taking things away. But now I'm starting to understand that change is inspiring me to appreciate, to be more present, to notice. Okay, how can I better flow in this relationship with my wife so that I can be supportive of her, so that we can meet our goals together, so that we can just have a much more nourishing home? And all of that really stems from that sort of inner work and building that relationship with change. And it sort of helping me see things from different perspectives, like, oh, I can do better in so many of these different areas.

Did you begin meditation with your wife or were you already on a practice or doing the quote unquote work? And she was like, this is cool.

Yeah. I started July of 2012, and she did her first course March of 2013. So she had to wait a little bit because she was. She was working as a scientist at the time, and her schedule was quite strict. So it took a while for her to get 10 days off to go.

Yeah.

And then. But we both picked it up and we both found it, which was nice that we separately found it interesting. You know, it wasn't like you guys.

Were not married at that time.

We weren't married yet, but we were together.

Yeah, that's.

Yeah.

I think there's something really cool about that, which is. I remember when I first started to do some of the inner work, one of my mentors said to me, hey, just make sure. Because my wife Lisa and I married really young. Make sure you guys are together because there's a trap in here somewhere. If one grows and investing in this and the other's, like, not interested. Like, it just might be unfortunate if you guys. And I am not suggesting that if you, the listener, are listening, like, oh, I want to meditate, that the other person has to. I'm not saying that at all. Right. And that would be a mistake.

Yeah.

That if you're interested, that the other person has to be interested. But how fun that you guys were on a similar path and. Okay. So I listened and read your. Your book. I did. I went back and forth between listening to it and reading it.

Thank you.

Yeah. And my Wife and I were listening, so I jumped in the car and I put it on. And I was really excited and nervous to listen to your book with my wife. Yeah. So we've been married 30 some years. And I was really excited because it's just rich. It's wonderful. And I love the idea of you guys doing the work together. And it's like all of it was amazing. And the nervousness was like, you know, I don't want to give away the three variables that you point to for better loving. And. And I was nervous that she was going to be like, well, you think you're doing good on those? Well, wow, that one's for you, Mike. You know, like, yeah, but like. And so I pressed play and I said, I'm really excited about what Diego's writing here. And so she's like, oh, good. So we just had this wonderful kind of just passive. It was a 45 minute conversation. Just like, it felt like it was just like this really refreshing kind of reminders of how we want to be.

Oh, that's so nice. Because that's. That's literally the point of the book is like, you know, especially if you're in a relationship while you're reading it, to just like open up conversations and you see, it's like, whether you agree with what I'm saying or not, it's.

Hard to disagree with any of the. It's really tough to disagree with your anchor. So what I wanted to do in this conversation is see if you're really about it. Right. Those words, the words you wrote are good. They are wisdom, profound and clear.

Thank you.

And I wanted to see if you were about it.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I don't try to be impressive. Like, I'm not trying to, like, I don't walk around my life trying to impress people. Dude. I just meditate and I write, you know, so I'm like, I think there are interesting times where people have been following my writing for a long time and. And then we may meet in person and they expect so much. But usually if. If you and I are just hanging out, I just want to laugh.

Yeah.

You know, like, we're just hanging out.

Yeah.

And I. So I keep like the. I spend a lot of time meditating, so I don't need to, like, put on a performance. You know, it's just like this. Just. I like doing that. But then I also, like, have other aspects of my life.

Yeah. So it reminds me of Nike's mission statement to Bring innovation and inspiration to every athlete in the world. And athlete has an asterisk next to it. And so the way they define it is if you have a body, you're an athlete. And then I talk about performance, the aspiration of being, reaching your potential. And then, you know, when I use the word performance in my mind there's an asterisk which is the highest performance is being fully present with the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown. So being. And then if you are, if you have a certain set of qualities or capabilities, qualities or characteristics that you want to make sure are part of the unfolding you.

Yeah.

Then that's the work. And then if you want technical skills that are important for capabilities, that's the work. So there's two streams of work to do that's so good, the craft and the, and the, and the inner skills. So anyways, I don't want to get stuck there. I want to go to love.

Yeah.

Okay. How to love better.

Yeah.

How to be better at loving. Can we start with the three characteristics that are important for p. For you that you hope the readers will get to be able to love better?

Yeah. So I, I arc the book around these, like these three core elements of what helps make relationships successful. One sort of key aspect is kindness. Um, it's very simple, but it's when we're in proximity to people, they will see the best of us and they'll see the worst of us. Part of that is because if we're in proximity to them, there is some degree of comfort. So vulnerability can open up. But one thing that happens, especially with long term relationships is that you can very easily get into a rut and just, you know, forget that kind element that you should be treating your partner with a certain degree of sweetness. So I'm not saying hide anything. I'm saying make sure there's balance, where you can share the tough moments, but you're also intentionally creating sweet moments with them. The other element that is really, really critical is compassion. So the key to solving any argument is a very specific type of compassion where you can step outside of your perspective to see the perspective of another person. Now, if you can really see where they're coming from and they can see where you're coming from, then the argument is going to evaporate over time. The last element is growth is like when you get into a relationship, you are going to see everything you're good at and everything you're not good at and it's going to be devastatingly clear. So you kind of have to Embrace the journey. Like, okay. I remember when I first started being with my wife. You know, we got together quite young. She was 18 and I was 19. And we got married when I was 27. So we'll. We'll have 10 years married this summer, this July. But I knew pretty quickly. I was like, I'm not a good listener. Like, I need to, like, intentionally work on listening. I also need to work on patients. There were so many qualities that were lacking, and. And I've had to work on. On them over time. And it's not something that I have perfected. But I just know that if you want to love, it means learning how to care for someone. Cause you're not gonna automatically know how to care for someone. And part of learning how to care for them is you have to embrace your growth and sort of hone out your emotional skill set.

Compassion, kindness, and growth. That's right. And meditation is your one bucket for all three.

Meditation is more so like my. The backdrop of, like, where I'm coming from, how I maintain my personal growth, and really sort of the inspiration that's given me this, like, framework of understanding how to show up in relationships.

I. I don't want to miss something that I think you're doing as an. Maybe equally potent. And I don't want to take away from the potency of meditation for you. But when you. So I think there's three practices of awareness that are materially important. Some sort of internal meditation, mindfulness work, journaling, and conversations with people of wisdom. So you are doing the internal work where you're examining with radical honesty, which is a word you and I both love. Yeah, Radical honesty. That's why I'm so attracted to environments of consequence. You must be honest. And if you're not, consequences are of the utmost.

Yeah.

And we don't necessarily have that sharp, pointy stick in our back in everyday, mundane living.

Right.

To be radically honest. But we're both. You and I are both ringing the bell for the value of being radically honest. When you're talking with someone of wisdom, there's a forcing function of radical honesty. Because they know.

Yeah.

You know, they'll feel it and tune it. When you're journaling, you. You know, and when you're meditating, you also know. So you're writing. You're not maybe journaling, but you're writing a lot. So you've got two of those three. And I think probably talking to your wife is. Is the.

Yeah.

The third.

She's very wise man. And it's not Just my wife, too. It's like my wife and I have these two teachers that I really look up to who've meditated a lot more than I have in the same tradition. And they like you. You, you can't lie to them even if you tried. It's like their, their vibration is so clean. Like they're, they're just like, you know, embodying. There's no way to go. Yeah. And they can just, like, you know, see right through you so clearly. So it's honestly nice being around someone where there is. You just. You can't perform even if you tried. So all you can do is just put your guard down and you just, you know, they see what's there.

Yeah. If nothing else, it's a great practice of forcing you to be whatever is you.

Yeah.

Yeah. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep, consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best. Physically, cognitively, emotionally. Sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress. It matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Leesa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery, Leesa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at Leesa, plus an extra 50 off when you use the code Finding Mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S A dot com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us. Because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. I want to take a moment to tell you about a podcast I think you're really going to enjoy. It's called Think Fast, Talk Smart. It's hosted by bestselling author and Stanford lecturer Matt Abrahams, and it's all about helping you become a more effective communicator. Each Tuesday, Matt sits down with World class experts to discuss how to hone and develop your communication skills. Skills like mastering small talk, keeping your nerves in check while speaking to large groups, and science based strategies to help boost your confidence across all types of interactions. Think fast. Talk Smart is a really cool podcast that teaches us how to communicate better. Take a listen every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcast. So there's a first principle that I have is everything we need is already inside of us.

Yeah. I just can't believe how in tune we are. Like the way you appreciate impermanence, the way you keep coming back to what's happening inside. Not just like to the, to the sort of like the outer self, but inside your mind and heart. Like it really just it. That's the key to opening up a new life and the key to opening up optimal performance.

That's cool. Yeah, that's it. Optimal performance is a word that I'll, you know, asterisk as well. Okay, so let's do this though. Everything is already inside you. There's the lower version of me, you know, that shows up and just, just. It was, I think it was two weekends ago, my wife and I were. Let's call it an argument.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Where I instantly wanted to defend myself.

Yeah.

I was. And I was kind of in the thick of reading your book and I said, hold on. I said, babe, we're not enemies here. And she goes, I know. And then she started laughing and then I was like, okay, just give me a moment. I'm in the defensive mode. Just give me a moment. And then she's Latin as well, and she goes, no, we're going to solve it now. I was like, I need a moment. And she's like, no, we're going to solve it right now. And so it was that idea that everything's in me, but sometimes I need more space and you know, the idea. So you say it a bunch in your book. That's why I was referencing it. We're not enemies. We're teammates. We're. We're partners. We are quote unquote lovers. Like, let's get this thing, you know, back on track to like that spirit or that tone. So I think you would appreciate that.

I love, I love hearing that because I think that's like the. Those moments of arguing with your favorite person in the world.

Yeah, right.

It's like that's where all, like, let's see where you're really at.

That's right.

You know, that's the intention. What skills have you built? Like, what challenges do you still have to face. And it's really hard. It's hard to switch over from trying to win or from trying to defend to just trying to understand.

It's more defend for me, unfortunately.

Yeah.

And it's.

It's really challenging because the mind is just like, oh, my gosh, am I going to get kicked out of the group? You know, it's. It just goes real quickly back to, like, hunter gatherer mode. Like, you know, the fear just wakes up. And I think over time, you know, the two of us have been training ourselves to see. They're like, okay, something's here. There's tension arising. But what? Like, when did the tension start for you? You know, and literally taking the time to listen to her story as selflessly as I can, and then going back and sharing my story as selflessly as I can and as clearly as I can without just pointing a finger to her, but saying, what's happening? How did my emotions move for me? And it's cool that, that.

So you're doing two things. You're listening deeply and you're really curious about what's happening. Her state. You're also curious about the tripwires for this current state that she's in. And then. So that's kind of 1, A, 1B, and then 2 is like, whoa, what's happening to me? What are my tripwires to A to B? And then bringing forward, like, some sort of reminder that we are. Let's solve this together.

Right.

Yeah. I think you'd be great to be in an argument with. No, really, I do. I think that, you know, like, you'd be great. Like.

Yeah, I try my best. You know, that's one of my big, big goals for the past two years, is to not fall into other people's tension, but instead to invite them into my piece.

And you can't do it, though, in a way that dismisses.

No.

Because there's a. There's a subtle little trap in there which is invite you into my piece. I am above.

No. Yeah, it's not that. It's. It's really about, like, I want to hear what you have to say. Like, I want to see what's going on for you.

Yeah.

And through seeing them and also maintaining your equanimity without trying to manipulate them at all.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, both invitations are open. I can go into this tension.

Yeah.

Or if I'm not deciding to go into the tension, then over time will sort of. The new equilibrium will be more peaceful.

Yeah. If done, let's say it too early, I believe you. But it done too early. It. It makes my. It makes every part of me like nails on a chalkboard. Like, hold on, I'm not going to say this to you, but, like, what is this righteous shit here? Like, you can't get down into the mess.

Yes.

With me. Like, come on now.

And it's much more like, you know what? When people come and they show up with their anger, whether it's about you or about something else, you can offer really good listening. You know, you can listen and be with them, but you don't necessarily need to join them. And that's something that's been really hard to learn because that's one of the ways that we sort of share and when we're in proximity with other individuals where it's like, you know, this big anger. Let me tell you why I'm angry, what happened with my coworker, and then join me in my anger. But I think there's something that I'm learning where it's not like, I don't need to stress myself out to show you that I love you.

That's dope. And you know what? So here's a mistake I made. I do want to get where people make mistakes in kind of setting, like early mistakes, maybe, or loving. Loving mistakes, if you will. Is that early on? Let's say Lisa, my wife, is so much better at this than I. Like, I'll say I'm frustrated with something. I bring it home, and I'm like, there's something I'm working on, is what I'll usually say, hey, there's something I'm working on. This, that and the other. And she'll go, oh, yeah, yeah. And she's in it with me, but she's not like, getting sucked in. And she's not all of a sudden spinning out of control in that way. But she's like, yeah, that. That sounds hard. Then, well, have you thought about this? Or like. So she gets on, like, trying to think about solutions with me rather than kind of commiserating.

Yeah.

And I don't. I have not historically done that. Well, she will say something that's frustrating her or whatever. And then I go to this kind of. Well, hold on. You don't know that if that person cut you off, they're just in a rush to get to the hospital. You don't. You don't. Like, there's lots of. There's lots of things that could happen here. And because. And they'll say like, maybe you're Taking that too personally. And then like, boy, did I miss the mark on that.

Yeah.

Like. Like, what am I doing? I'm trying to go upstream to solve something. Because there are. I. I appreciate how many multiple choices that people could be making for the one thing that's actually being expressed, and I appreciate all of those nuances that happened well before the choice was actually made.

Yeah.

And the actual frustrating response, that's, you know, being expressed. And if I don't tune correctly to the state or the experience of anybody, my wife included, I'm like, what am I doing? I'm like, yeah.

And I think that that's. That's why, like, leaning back on the. You know, when we go back to the basics. Right. Like, clear communication.

Yeah.

Not just in the moment of difficulty, but preventive communication. And that's just been one of the most helpful things in our relationship. It's been. I. Before my mind even tries to find something to feel even more tense about or, you know, more agitated about, I want to let you know what's happening inside of me. So the language my wife and I use will be like, you know, I feel a lot of, like, anger moving through me, or I feel a lot of, like, you know, heaviness moving through me, even if it doesn't have a name.

Moving through is the key point here.

Yeah. Moving through.

Like, I'm angry.

I'm not angry. I'm. I don't even exist. Like, I is like, I is a very sort of, you know, a conventional level understanding of reality. But something's moving through. I feel this emotion moving through. The reality of the emotion is quite real, but it's not permanent. But I think in the act of letting each other know, like, you know, when she tells me that she doesn't feel great, I'm like, oh, that's like the best information. Because then I know to give you your space to support you, to, you know, to just help you out. Because what we would do in the past is when we didn't have that information, the mind will look for more things to be agitated about. And we're standing right next to each other, so it's very easy for us to just start picking at each other or pick up old arguments and rehash them and just fall into an argument that may not necessarily have needed to happen.

Commiserating around a frustration of the day is a false connection, but it's a desire to want to be tuned with the other person. Can you believe? And then now you and I are going, yeah, yeah. And now we're, like, close, but that's not. It's not the greatest way to be close.

Yeah. But even, like, what you said, I think what Lisa is doing is really cool. Is, like, it's like, I'm hearing you out, but I'm also, like, you know, fully honoring this moment that you're going through, and I'm also acknowledging that it.

Sucks and it's yours.

Yeah.

Not mine.

Yeah.

You know, like, in a beautiful way.

Totally. And I think that's real maturity right there.

Thank you. I'll share that to Lisa. She is the one for me. Yeah. You also talked about self love, and you've got a couple practices there for self love, which I really appreciate. Can you open up those best practices for loving self and why that's important?

Yes. I wrote about this in my other book, Lighter, and I think self love, that's what I really learned that year before I started meditating and after my rock bottom moment. Right. So, like, after my rock bottom moment, and then there was a whole year there, and when I was sort of reformatting my life, it became clear that I had to be radically honest with myself. I needed to just. And this was between me and myself. Like, I had to tell myself the truth because what I was running away from in the past was just admitting that I didn't feel good. Like, that. That was really hard for me. And I think it was hard because I had no clear way to fix it. Right. It was like, this big, like, amorphous problem that didn't have an immediate solution. So being radically honest with whatever it was that I was feeling, and this was, you know, pretty. Like, intuitively I knew, you know, even before meditating, I was like, okay, I'm feeling anxiety. And what I would normally do is roll up a joint, but instead, I'm going to sit on my bed, and I'm just gonna feel it. And I would do it for a small amount of time, like five, ten minutes, and I'm like, okay. Like, I feel.

Would you still roll the joint after that?

Sometimes in the. For. In the early. In the first year, yeah. Before I started meditating. But I would give myself the time to just, like, let me just feel it before I run.

Yeah.

And I would feel it, and I'm like, okay. Like, that. That sucks. Doesn't feel good. But it's not as bad as I thought it was gonna be. Like, literally just giving myself that space. So that's what radical honesty looked like a lot for me. The other element of that was when you start Exploring your inner force. When you start really paying attention to your emotional history, like looking at, you know, what's happened to you, what's helped shaped your character, there's going to be a lot of things in there that you like and that you don't like. So moving into that with self acceptance feels really important because then you don't want self exploration to become cannon fodder for negativity where you're just like super negative towards yourself. Right. What happened, happened, the mistakes you made, the hard things that have happened, learn from them.

A double arrow. Yeah, the second arrow, which is, wow, I'm really sad. The double arrow is I'm always going to be sad. Or what if I be so sad all the time?

Or I deserve it.

Yeah, I deserve it. So it's a second arrow that's being shot. That is where suffering lives.

Yeah.

And so you're saying, wait, just accept that. Just accept radical honesty. This is what is. Yeah, second is like, this is. Okay, yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna pass.

Exactly.

So you're banking it or the backstop is impermanence.

Yeah.

And then your third.

Third is positive habit building. I think this is when you take a look at your life and that's what I mentioned earlier. Like at the time when I hit my rock bottom moment, I was so unhealthy and I knew that I needed to start drinking more water, I needed to start going on long walks, I needed to sign up to a gym, I needed to keep telling myself the truth. Like these all felt like habits that I was building as pillars in my life. And over time they really made big changes. Even before the meditating, you know, I started seeing that just like the way that I can show up could be a bit better.

Okay, so you've also got like nine. It's not strat. I think it's strategies to build some habits to be great, to do love better maybe is a better way to say it. Can you which ones of those kind of strategies are coming to the surface for you that you think would be important to.

Yeah, I think.

I don't want you to list all nine.

Yeah, yeah. I think some of the, the really important ones. Understanding that you can be with the best person in the world and things are still not going to be perfect. Right. You have to embrace the fact that they're still going to be misunderstanding. Like perception is not accurate. Like it's very easy for your perception to get confused and someone's well intentioned words can get twisted by a mood that you have and create some tension, some friction between the two of you that needs to be resolved. So expect imperfection even from the most well meaning person who cares about you more than anybody else in the world. The other aspect of that is, the other thing I want to add to that is the preventive communication. Like highlighting that, that, that is really, really vital. Like, you want to be open with your partner about how you feel before it becomes even bigger. Because one, it's good for you to name it. You want to know, you want to be aware of it yourself and you want to let them know, like if something heavy is moving through you that just helps them support you through the day. And this, this can just create so much harmony in a relationship. And I think the other element that is really important to highlight is that the growth just doesn't stop. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, you know, you've been with your partner for such a long time. I've been with my partner for such a long time. I am still constantly seeing where I could improve a little bit. And that doesn't make me, like, I don't feel sad about that. It's kind of like, oh, good. Like it's a, you know, it's another like, healthy project to have where I am simultaneously accepting myself as an imperfect person. Like, I know I'm going to make mistakes, but it's fun to keep working on myself and keep expanding my skillset.

So this is cool because this is the way. What I found people are committed to the path of mastery, call it athletes or otherwise, is that they don't say I'm imperfect, they say, I want to be my very best. That might be the world's best. I don't, you know, that'd be great.

Yeah.

But there's this fundamental commitment on the path of mastery to be my very best. And when I reach and bump up against something that I'm not proficient at. Oh, this is great. Hold on. Like, this is a whole unlock here. And then there's this near obsession with like moving towards, like unlocking a little bit more of that thing that they had a taste of. It's like, I didn't even know this existed.

Yeah, I didn't even.

Wait. If I put my foot this way or hold my hand this way or whatever the physical technical cue might be like, are you kidding me? Or sometimes a mental, you know, like, oh, wow. If I speak this way and breathe this way.

Holy.

Like, yeah. I'm in a way better ideal state for me to capture or meet a moment And I love. I love. I don't hear I'm an imperfect being. That's. That's a. That's more of a wisdom language, but it's more like there's so much to learn.

So much to learn. So much to learn. When I started. When my writing career started picking up and I knew that I was getting busier, I was wrapping up a retreat, and I had a conversation with the teacher of that retreat and was telling him that, you know, work is getting bigger. I've been working on writing, and it's going to. I'm going to have a little bit less time for retreats because I'm just, you know, busier out in the world. And he looked at me and he told me, be the best. Not in the sense of competition. You don't care about what's happening with other people, but you be the best. And it was so clear. It was like one of the biggest inspirations of my life, where it was like, I don't. I don't. Yeah, I don't. I don't care what other people are doing. They have. We can have. We can all have very different styles of success. But it was more so to just focus in on myself as an individual. Like, am I putting out? Am I being as clear as possible?

Okay, so that's what I was gonna ask. What does it mean? So for you, the best? Does that mean your best?

Yeah, it means, like, am I really showing up as best as I can in this moment, in this book, in this talk, in this. You know, where wherever I'm showing up, am I really putting in the work to put out really good material?

Radical honesty.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool.

And it was. It was nice. And I think that just, like, gave me this fuel that helped me. Okay, right. Being the best is not about being number one. It's not about the competition. But if you just focus on, okay, how can I optimize my output while maintaining my peace? You know, you can get really far. And that's something that I've seen in myself and a lot of other meditators who. Who, you know, whether they're architects, whether they're doctors or lawyers, it's just that as they do some of that healing work and they decrease that intense intensity of the reaction of the mind, their capacity increases, and they're just able to do more.

How are you doing in this conversation?

I'm having fun.

Reference to that. Reference to that standard that you're holding, I think.

I mean, I. I feel like what I'm Doing the best at now is letting you know because I do a lot of interviews, so this one, I feel like when I walked in, you just invited me to have a very open experience, which was very different from like, you know, you do a lot of podcasts and you have books come out and then you just kind of, you know, go through the media tours. But here I'm like, okay, being the best. It's just like, let's just rap, let's talk. Let's like just let whatever happens happens. And that feels really good.

Yeah, ditto. I appreciate that this episode is brought to you by our friends at Magic Mind. I'm always intentional about how I manage my energy throughout the day, especially when it comes to what I consume. So I was really intrigued when Magic Mind announced their new caffeine free version of their focus shot. And their focus shot, it's something that has already been a staple in my routine for years. So this new product is called Magic Mind Free. And what stood out to me was that the intention behind it, it's designed to support clarity and focus without relying on stimulation. So there's no caffeine, there's no spikes, there's no jitters. For me, it's been a great tool when I want to settle into creative work or even prepare me for meditation. It's a thoughtful blend with studied adaptogens and nootropics and functional ingredients. And it's supported by this philosophy that I really believe in. You don't always need more stimulation to do your best work. Sometimes oftentimes less is more. And if you're someone who wants to increase being more clear, more present without over revving your system, this is a product worth investing in, checking out. And if you're looking for a little more of a lift, something with a bit more of a punch, don't forget about their original product and they've got a new one called Max. It's another new formula that's slightly more stimulating than the original for those moments where you you really want to push harder. So whatever version fits your needs, they've put together a great generous offer for us at finding mastery. 60% off your first order@magicmind.com masterymf using the code mastery60. That's magicmind.com masterymf and use the code mastery60 for 60% off. Finding mastery is brought to you by Kachava. For me, the rhythm of my day, it really matters. I spend money most of my time toggling between working with our clients to help them unlock their team's potential, deep creative and strategy work, preparing for podcast guests here at the Mastery Lab, and of course, other moments that demand my full attention and presence. And what I found is how I fuel that rhythm. It makes a big difference. That's why I like Kachava. And this can be a great new addition to your routine as well. It's a whole body meal shake with plant based protein that tastes equally as delicious as it is nourishing. It's a simple way to start the day or a great ad after a workout. I like the vanilla or the chai just blended with a little coconut milk and some frozen blueberries. Smooth, tastes great. It's exactly what you need on those days that demand the most from you. And hopefully those are a lot of days. What I really appreciate is the integrity of their ingredients. 25 grams of plant based protein is 85 + superfoods and adaptogens like matcha root and sacha and chi. No artificial flavors, no color sweeteners, no fillers, just real nourishment to support your body and mind in whatever you're getting after. Whether I'm traveling or on the move or locking in for focus sessions, Kachava is a solid choice. Fuel your day with Kachava. Go to kachava.com and use the code finding mastery for 15% off your next order. That's Kachava K A C H a v a kachava.com and then use the code finding mastery for 15% off. Okay. And then what does it mean for mastery of self for you?

Oh man, that's so nice. I think real self mastery would be extinguishing, craving. No longer living within the framework of ego, but living within the framework of compassion for myself and others.

And your number one practice for that.

Oh, Vipassana. Vipassana Meditation. Yeah.

Yeah. And if there was a subscript to.

That practice, I mean, just like listening to my wife be pretty clear. Yeah.

And then if you're stuck in a relationship and the patterns aren't, you're like, what are these two talking about? Or like, man, I, I would love that, but I'm in a rut.

Yeah.

Is not even close to the way I want it. You know, I'm. There's a lot of places you could go here.

Right.

So I'm curious where. Who you're speaking to and where do you point to?

Yeah.

For some, the change that the person's looking for.

I think if you feel like you're in a rut, especially within yourself and your relationship, you need to Figure out a way to break the pattern. So you need to, you know, do something different during a weekend. Don't, you know, if. If you're just used to, like, playing video games, being on the couch during the weekend or whatnot, like go hiking. Go, go, do. Go do something different so that your mind can have just sort of new things to process. And I think in the act of doing something new, you can see yourself a little bit differently and see hopefully the thing that you've been ignoring that, you know, you probably should do. I feel like that pulling yourself out of your, like, hardened pattern, like, it was so valuable for me to go away to a retreat. I remember when I was having a difficult. When I was in a rut and trying to change my life. I was like, I need to go live on a farm in Portland. And that those three months that I lived on that farm have been so formative. They helped me see, like, oh, actually, instead of, you know. No, instead of not being with my wife, I need to ask her to. To marry. To marry me. Like, I need to really solidify and like, hunker into this relationship because she means so much to me. But sort of breaking out of that rut literally, physically meant like, changing locations and then realizing, oh, I can really build something here.

It's cool. Okay, two questions. One is this hinge idea of learning and letting go and so what are you looking to learn right now? And what are you looking to let go of even deeper?

What I'm definitely looking to learn. And that's, I think something that's been helpful, but I have a ways to go is just delegating. I think delegating has been, you know, I've. I've written five books. I'm going to write at least two more. But I'm also working at a, you know, help co found a venture capital company called Wisdom Ventures that's been really successful.

Congratulations on that.

Thank you.

You did it with a friend of mine.

Yeah, with Soren.

Soren.

All good things. So many good things stem from Soren. Yeah, that. That's been a lot of work in and of itself. And I'm also building other companies, but I'm learning I just can't be in all these places at once. Even though my capacity has grown over the years, I need to be able to trust and let go and just, you know, work with good people and let them run things.

Yeah. So it's interesting you went on the learn side of that, not the let go. So, like, I think you could have answered that and I need to let go of control.

Yeah, totally.

Is that, I think.

And it's. It's part of.

Part of which is funny that you're.

Yeah. And it's a mixture of control and having a better understanding of my capacity. Having a better understanding of like, how much can I really do. Because ideally I'd want to pour 100 of my time into all these things because I love them all, but I'm one person. Like, get a grip, you know, like, you can only do so much.

Yeah. And is that control stuff stemming back to pre breakdown breakthrough?

I think it's.

Like, where did the control stuff come from?

Yeah, I think. I think when I'm a part of something, I like to really be a part of it. And the past has shown me that if I really focus my energy into something, I can do a pretty good job.

And what. What are you afraid of if you, if you delegate?

I think if I like, the vision gets skewed. I think that's one thing is like when I sort of go into something as a co founder, you know, we're molding a vision that will set up the company. So I think that's. That's one of the fears is like that the thing that we start ends up becoming something totally different. And. But that's a risk that I have to take because it may become something totally different.

Why try to do so much?

I think I.

I don't know.

I have. I have the energy for it. Yeah. It feels like I listen really closely to my intuition. And when Soren told me about this idea for Wisdom Ventures, I felt I was like, oh, this, this so right. You know, trying to, like, literally the mission is trying to prove that compassion is good business, that you can build companies and have them have products that are meant to help people and that you can make a return. You know, to me it was like, oh, we should try to prove that. And that felt important to be a part of. So now what I'm learning is like, you know, say yes to what feels right, but if I'm saying yes to too many things, then nothing's going to get done.

Well, yeah, no. Might be a better act of compassion.

Totally.

Yes. Might be a serve you better, but not maybe, you know, the partnership.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, okay. So how are you doing? Work to let go and learn. I do like the hinge idea. I'm trying to learn a bunch of things. They're A, B and C. And I'm really still trying to let go of da da, da da. This is probably the same idea for you.

So I think it's the same. I think it's what you said. So it's like, learn. Learn to delegate and let go of control.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. And what suffering does this rest on for you?

I think responsibility. So, like, I. You know, my parents spend so much time taking care of me, so I feel like I've been really fortunate to have.

There it is in your voice again.

Yeah, yeah. To have you hear it. Yeah, yeah. And I feel it. I feel it in the body.

What's happening?

Huh? Heat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But wait, stay with it for a minute. What. What is this?

It's being, like, wanting to be able to be there, to be. To care. To care for them the way they care for me feels really important. And I think that's where, like, if my energy is too divided and I'm not really, you know. Oh, that's. It's so. It's so much clearer now. So it's like you can say yes to things that feel important, that could end up helping my family a lot, helping other people as well. But if I say yes too much, then nothing's going to get done. Well, so I think in the act of letting go of that control, it actually opens much more possibility for me to be able to take care of my family.

And that flood of emotions that you're with was the animation of love.

Yeah.

Not guilt.

Yeah. And it's. And the word that I keep coming back to is care. It's like, because I love them, they're very important to me, but I feel a sense of responsibility. You know, I think sometimes I wonder, like, if I were. If I were born wealthy, I probably would have never written anything. I probably would have just been meditating. But it felt important to me. Like, I'm. I'm learning a lot while meditating. And I know that I don't know everything. I know that I'm not fully wise, but it felt valuable to reflect and see if other people were, like, you know, thinking in similar ways. And I remember having this conversation with my wife. I was like, you know what? I should try to write a book. Even though I don't know how to write, Even though I don't know everything I'm learning, but maybe if I hit a home run, this could totally change things for us. And it did.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

I. Now, when I remember, when I asked, are you really about it? Yeah, this is it. Like, everything has been tuning correctly in my, like, oh, yeah, that's real. Oh, that's real. Like, and there's no judgment about it, but, like, how does it feel to bounce up against you? It feels safe and sturdy and honest, and that's the way I feel in this conversation. And then when that just happened, where you, like, the care for your parents and all of the feeling, I was like, there's the source code. Yeah, there's the source code. Yeah, man, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing on multiple levels.

No, thank you for being such a clear mirror. It's really, really helpful.

Thank you. Yeah. If there's one thing maybe you know, that you hope somebody experiences and carries forward.

Yeah.

What would that be? From our conversation or your. Your. Your writings, your book, I think.

And we touched this in the middle of the conversation. But let impermanence inspire you. Let impermanence inspire you to be ever more present with the beautiful moments of your life. Because we really do have a combative relationship with change, and we fight change. Change is going to happen no matter what. Like, we're always going to, you know, like, change is going to win. So instead, for the people that you really care about, for the things that you really get a lot of joy from, be present, be with the people that you love, because they're not always going to be there. And that's just part of life.

When I say goodbye to people, and now when you and I will say goodbye, you'll know what I'm doing is that I don't know if I'll see you again. And this is with my wife, my son, my staff here. And I always, when I say goodbye, really take a moment to mean it. And so I love what you're saying. It's a. It's a practice for me to be more present with that. And so what a fun conversation. I thought that it was going to be exactly what it was.

Could be.

Like, thank you for the laughter that you also brought to it. Can I hit you with a couple, like, quick hits?

Yeah, sure.

Okay. It all comes down to.

It all comes down to change.

Success is peace. Mastery is repetition. My purpose is service. Damn. These are all clear for you?

Yeah.

My vision is.

Oh, my gosh, just more compassion, but structural compassion for the world.

My tripwire is.

Oh, there's a bunch of. I think, like, just meanness. Like, when people are mean, I think, like, it's totally fine to set boundaries, but when people are, like, in unnecessarily unkind to each other, that's. It's hard.

Relationships are.

I mean, the path to learning money is. It's just like. Like A tool. It's a. Like an energy. A tool. It's not. Yeah. I think we need to, like, lower what money is.

My heart aches for.

Aches for. I think nothing. I think I would be lying if I try to put something there.

It's a cool answer. Yeah, it's a really cool answer. I wondered how you do that, because it's aching and craving are.

Yeah. I was like my wife, but I just saw her yesterday. She's fine. You know, I'll see her soon.

Okay, good. Yeah. All right. Two fun. Where. Where can people follow you and your insight and readings and writings?

I'm on Substack, which is really fun. I've been spend. I've been really enjoying writing longer articles on substack. Young Pueblo, substack.com on Instagram, of course. You'll get more of, like, the minimalistic writings there and in bookstores.

Why your pen name, Young Pueblo?

It means young people. It just means that in this arc of humanity that we're in right now, we're really growing up. When I think about what we try to teach children, like, the basics, like, you know, this common thread. How to clean up after yourselves, how to be kind to each other, how to not hit each other, how to tell the truth. These are basics that we try to teach children, but humanity as a whole has not mastered these fundamentals.

Very cool. And if you could. I don't think this is your style, but if it isn't, just pass. If you could challenge our community in one way, how would you challenge them?

I think it's the same challenging challenge that I'm giving to myself. And it's not. It's so easy to overlook, and it sounds so mundane, but, like, really being grateful for the little things, like being grateful for a clean cup of water, like being grateful for food, being grateful for, you know, the ability to travel, to move around the world, like, these things. I'm trying to keep myself grounded, you know, as I, you know, release another book and moving around the world. I had this conversation with my wife, and, like, we were in London. I was doing a bunch of promotion, and my mind was just going towards work, and. And then I was like, wait. I was like, snap out of it. You're in London. This is a historic city. Why are you acting like, you know, like, enjoy it? And then we just started taking these huge, long walks through Hyde park and everything. And, you know, it was like waking back up into presence.

Awesome. Emma, our producer, is now even more in love with what you stand for. Cause She's British. Yeah. Good. Okay, look. Thank you so much, Diego. Thank you for the deep investment you've made in yourself. Thank you to show up the way you've shown up in the world and to be able to put pen to paper and express eloquently ideas that are just beyond the ability to capture with clarity. And so you've done that so, so wonderfully. And so thank you for that. Thank you for the entertainment that you brought into this conversation paralleled with wonderful wisdom. Really appreciate you.

Yeah, thank you so much. And thank you for designing this so intelligently. It's so easy to just ask questions, but to like, create an experience that I'm not gonna forget it.

Yeah, man.

Yeah. Thank you.

Awesome. Okay, thank you. Next week on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Emmy Award winning choreographer and dancer Derek Hough. In this powerful conversation, Derek opens up about the childhood challenges that shaped his.

Resilience, the life altering journey alongside his wife Hayley's illness, and how creativity, discipline and love continue to guide his path. Join us on Wednesday, July 23rd for this incredible conversation.

All right, thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Hunch over to findingmastery.com newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals@findingmastery.com sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reach reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need One of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional, so seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode. Be well, think well, keep exploring.