This content was created by David Julian Price. This content was uploaded by David Julian Price. This is a YouTube video titled "Management vs Leadership Keynote - Perth" (recorded/posted 2018-07-02) containing a live keynote presentation on differences between management and leadership, aimed largely at not-for-profits and associations. The presenter (SPEAKER A) leads an interactive session with audience members (SPEAKER B and named attendees such as Mark, Elke, John, Monica, Tracey and one called David), using exercises and examples (e.g., “specifics vs globals,” frying pan/hacksaw anecdotes, the “sweet spot,” and seven “seismic shifts”) to explain practical leadership skills, the pull of operations, and how to develop both management and leadership capabilities. The presenter solicits audience participation, offers follow-up materials (asks for business cards taped to a green sheet), and uses humor and props (Freddo Frog prizes).
Chapters
There's a few things we need to do right at the beginning. On every table there is one orange paper person. And one over there is still calculating by the look of it. Still going?
Yes.
So if you're the orange paper person, can you make sure that you have the little pink slip from everyone on your table and do the grand total of the number of years that the people on your table have been in the workforce? And we'll get that later. Is there an accountant in the room? Where? Someone said yes. No? Is there anyone who once knew an accountant? Very good. A man coughed over there. Never cough. You, sir, whose name I've forgotten but I know we met before.
Mark.
Mark, your job is you're going to go around and gather all of the orange slips from all around the room and you are going to do the grand total. Do you reckon you can handle that?
You got a calculator?
You want me to do that now? I want you to do that now. And, and, and, and, as incentive for you, you get your prize in advance. There is your prize. Okay, 1 Freddo Frog. But wait, there is more. You also give a Freddo Frog to each of the orange paper people.
Alright.
Okay, for their hard work. Now if you get the— now if you get the number right, you get another Freddo Frog at the end. There's something else you need to know before we start. You all have a green sheet of paper in front of you and there is some sticky tape on the table. In my presentation I'm going to talk about some stuff and I'm going to send you information about that, but I can't send it to you if I don't know who you are and where I find you. So I have found, because this is number 8 of these that we've done, that the easiest way is for you just to sticky tape your business card to that piece of green paper. So if you do that, I will send you the stuff. It's all free and I also am gonna send you a copy of a book that I've written recently on meetings. Does that sound alright? Say to the person next to you, does that sound alright?
Sounds very good.
Now say, they say it's okay.
They say it's okay.
Now say, they say it's okay.
They say it's okay.
Very good, but you are the one who wins the prize of course because you said it so loudly. Very good, there we are. So now we're about to start. Are you ready? Say yes.
Yes.
Here's where we're gonna go. First of all, we're gonna set the context of what we're talking about today. Then we're gonna give you the secrets of why people are like they are. This will be an education for you. Ah, it will. Then we're gonna show you the attributes of managers and leaders and then talk about the sweet spot. Is there a golfer in the room? 2 golfers at least. 3 golfers, good. So one of you I'm gonna ask to explain the sweet spot. So think about it. Then we're gonna talk about what you may need to do and how to do it. So, are we ready to go?
Yes.
Very good, we're ready to go. First thing we're gonna look at is this. You came because the topic was management versus leadership, but there's something else that must be considered and it's this. There's a 3rd pillar. There's the management, there's the leadership and there's the operation. The operation is what your organization exists to do. It's probably the reason that you came to your role. You probably came there through the operation. Now not all of you. Some of you will be in bigger organisations where you may not have come through the operational side of it. You might have come straight into management or leadership. But most not-for-profits and associations, which is what we're on about today, come through the operation. But we're going to talk more about the operational area, particularly in terms of where your comfort zone is and particularly in terms of where your effort goes because a lot of your effort will get hijacked by the operation constantly. Your management time gets hijacked by the operation. Your leadership time gets hijacked by the operation. But because you're in not-for-profits and associations, would I be right in saying that most of you cannot draw the distinction between management and leadership because you have to be both? Am I right for most of you?
Yes.
And you can't say, I'm going to be a manager on Mondays and I'm going to be a leader on Tuesdays. It simply doesn't work like that. It just doesn't have that delineation. You have to mix them and you have to work out how on earth you're going to deal with that. So that's what we're going to talk about. So I'm going to talk to you now about why people are like they are. I asked for those blinds to be opened for a particular reason. Can you look out that window for a moment? Looking over the wonderful Elizabeth Quay. Use your imagination. It's going to be wonderful, I'm sure.
It is.
But I want to ask you this question and I would like a few people, whoever, to call out an answer. What do you see?
Water.
Water is one answer.
Construction.
Construction. The bell tower.
Sky.
Sky. Change. Anything else?
Progress.
Sorry, I didn't hear.
Progress.
Progress. Development.
Development, yep.
You're all being very esoteric.
Compromise.
Compromise, yeah. What if I asked you what physically do you see out there? The bell tower? Trucks? The crane?
Clouds.
Clouds. Do any of you see Perth? Because the reason I ask is this. Some of you have been to the Brisbane Convention Centre, I'm sure, on South Bank, and in some ways it's similar to this, and we were in a very similar room. Had a large glass wall, and again I asked for the blinds to go up. But of course the Convention Centre in Brisbane is on the other side of the river, and just over the river a few hundred metres away is the city. And when I asked that question, some people said, I see Brisbane. Some people said, I see the city. Some people said, I see buildings. And some people said, I see the Westpac logo on that building. Everyone saw exactly the same thing and you all saw exactly the same thing, but your answers are different and the reason is this, because people are divided into 2 broad groups. Some people see the world through a magnifying glass and some people see the world through a telescope. Let's look at what that is. Magnifying glass, the telescope. I'm going to call it the specific and the global view of the world. The population is divided roughly 50/50 into both, specifics and globals. The problem is this. The specifics and the globals speak a different language. They see different things. They communicate in completely different ways and they don't know why the other person communicates that way and they don't work out that there are people who communicate in a different way. It comes directly back to management and leadership but I'll build the link for you in a moment. So if we look at this, the globals look through the telescope, the specifics look through the magnifying glass. So we're going to do a few little exercises and what I want you to do as I'm doing this is to challenge yourself as to work out where on that continuum you are because very few people are a 1 and if they are, they're an absolute pain in the proverbial and very few people are a 10 and if they are, they're an absolute pain in the proverbial. Most people are between the 2 and the 9. What I'd like you to do is try and work out where you are and particularly where the people you work with are and more particularly where your immediate boss is or your immediate subordinates are because that's the real challenge for you. So we're gonna ask a few questions. I'm going to ask you a question first. Elke, have you got a frying pan?
Yes.
No. No, but you do own a frying pan? Yes, I do. Good. Where is it?
In the cupboard beside the oven.
Great. In the cupboard beside the oven. What number answer is that?
3.
Yes, it's about a number 3 answer. Where is your frying pan?
In the oven.
In the oven. What number is that?
4.
No, no, that's not a 1. That's not a 1. It's a 4 or a 5 answer.
Okay.
Where's your frying pan?
At home.
Ah, great, perfect, thank you. Couldn't have done it better if I'd paid you. The answer was at home. What number's that? That's a 9 or a 10 answer and of course the unwritten or unsaid words beyond that are, stupid, where do you think it would be? But the point is they— all 3 people were asked exactly the same question but gave different answers. Now for you, your answer was eminently appropriate. It was the right answer for you. Your answer was the right answer for you and your answer was the right answer for you, but they were different. And so your answer would not satisfy you and your answer would not satisfy you. And people—
Make a great team.
Ah, perfect. Yes, you'd make a great team if you worked together, but you'd also clash. You'd also clash. So let me give you another example. David, have you got a workshop at home? No.
Okay.
John, do you have a workshop at home? Okay. Do you have a workshop at home?
Uh, yes.
Do you have a hacksaw?
Yes.
Where is it? In a box that I haven't unpacked yet. In a box he hasn't unpacked yet. Okay, so I'm going on thin ice here. We'll see what happens. What sort of blade's on it? A brand new one. Ah, but he knows there is a gauge. How many of you didn't know there was a gauge on a hacksaw blade? There, see, almost everyone. And you didn't care, did you? And guess what? You still don't. You don't give a damn that there's different gauges. But who has got a hacksaw and they know what blade's on it? Someone? Ah, here we go. Good. There's always one. Yes, it's you. It's you. What blade's on it?
It's a gauge 12.
Right, so do you know how many teeth per inch it is?
A lot.
A lot, OK. Very close together. Ah, so it's 37. 37 TPI, yeah. You see, once I asked this and the guy said, my hacksaw is on the left-hand side of my pegboard just above the bullnose pliers and next to the claw hammer, and so when he told me that much, I knew that I was on a good thing, and I said, what size blade's on it? And he said, oh, 37 TPI. TPI means teeth per inch. More teeth, finer it is. What make is it? He said, oh, it's a Stanley blade. And I said, where did you buy it? Bunnings. When? August the 12th. And I'm not joking. How much? $3.95. And I said, how do you remember that? He said, I don't know, but I do. He said, I can guarantee you that's accurate. I bought it on August the 12th. I said, how do you know? 'Cause I've written August the 12th and the price on the blade. Whenever I buy one, I write it on the blade so I know. And the rest of the people go, he knows? And then they say, why? Why would it matter? And the reality is it wouldn't. He's the same, is he? He was just pointing at you. He was dobbing you in for something. So people think Why would they remember that? It doesn't matter why. They do. Now you imagine that guy, the hacksaw guy, on a committee with you. Or those of you who service or have boards that you work with, which is most of you. Imagine that guy on your board. Guess where he is? He's a number 1.
Right?
So the issue is the midpoint. Which side of the midpoint are you? Because that's what you need to understand. Are you on the specific side of the midpoint or are you on the global side of the midpoint? I'll give you a couple of examples, a couple more examples. Let me see, I'll pick on Monica. It's Monica's birthday today. She's 43. Give her a happy birthday, everyone.
Happy birthday, Monica.
She's also Dame Monica Holmes. She's not just Monica, so she's probably the only Dame in the room. Dame Monica. How do I get to your place from here?
Go down the freeway south.
Down the freeway south. I'm just repeating it so everyone hears. You go off at the Leach Highway. Go off at the Leach Highway.
Take the 3rd set of lights.
Take the 3rd set of lights. So already what num— what side of the midpoint is she? She's on the left-hand side of the midpoint. We know that.
And then you go through another set of traffic lights and turn left.
Another set of traffic lights and turn left. She's going further down towards the 1, isn't she?
Then you drive past the shopping centre.
Then you drive past the shopping centre. Now how many of you are on the right-hand side of the midpoint? Put up your hand if you know you're on the right-hand side of the midpoint. Okay, you are thinking, just give me the address, aren't you? Because you're going to look it up in the map book or the GPS. You don't need to know all the detail Monica just went into, but Monica needs to tell you. She has her need. You have your need. They're completely different. Now you can tell really quickly once you start talking to someone which side of the midpoint they're on and as you keep talking to them you can find out what number they're on fairly easily. But here's the issue. Let's just say that you're sitting here now and the person next to you you get to know really well and they invite you to a barbecue at their place on Saturday. Okay? But they call you later. This is on the phone. And they then do what Monica just did. They start giving you the details of how to get there. How many of you will write down what Monica tells you? You're on the phone, she's talking to you, she's giving you details of how to get to her place, you need to know. How many of you will write them down? Put your hand up if you would write them down. Our hacksaw man will write them down. Gosh, what a surprise. Okay. The rest of you, you would pretend that you were writing them down, wouldn't you? Because you would not want to offend Monica. You would pretend that you were writing—
Yes.
See, look at Tracey's nod. 10, and you'd probably be doodling and you'd be waiting for the—
Address.
Which you would write down. But Monica, if she was a 1, which she isn't, but she is on the left-hand side, would be saying things like, and then you go up the 3rd Street, you go up 200 metres, and on the left-hand side there's a great big white house with a big letterbox. That's not it. And then you drive on. Now the specifics would write down, not the big white house. The globals wouldn't do a thing. They would just wait for the address but they'd pretend to do it. So now to wind this bit up, I want you to think about this. Think back in your work life to the people with whom you have had a personality clash. Anytime in your work life. I'll guarantee you that that person is on the opposite side of the midpoint. To you. Because that's where almost every personality clash comes from because you think, you speak, you see things differently. We all look out there. Some of us see the construction of Elizabeth Quay. Most of us probably do in fairness in this particular one. But some of us will look up in that direction and some of us will look over to the river. When we did it in Sydney, I asked the question. We again had a glass wall at the Sydney— it was at Luna Park. In Sydney, someone said, oh, I see the harbour. Someone else said, I see the ferry and a person waiting to get off and he's probably standing too close to the rail. Other people said, huh? They see things differently. So let's move on. Let's look at the difference between managers and leaders. I'm not going to go through the whole list. I'm only going to focus on a few. 3 or 4 I'm going to focus on. The first one, of course, managers tend to focus on things. Leaders tend to focus on people. Managers look inward, leaders look outward. The third one is a really interesting one. Managers see the trees but leaders see the forest. We've all heard the cliché, you can't see the wood for the trees, but that is nearly always said with a negative connotation, isn't it? That that's bad. They say you can't see the wood for the trees and it's implied that's bad. But the reality is the managers need to see the trees. So it's not bad at all. It just is. Some people can't see the wood for the trees and some people can't see the trees for the wood. You have to be able to see both, particularly in your role as a manager and a leader. So as I'm leading on with this, I'm starting to get to the point that you need to skill yourself in whichever side you are currently not quite as skilled as you need to be for your role. We'll talk more about that in a minute. The 3rd one from the bottom is a really interesting one. Managers avoid conflict but leaders use conflict. People say, how can people use conflict? Let me give it to you by way of this example. Let's pretend that this table is a board and let's pretend that they all agree on everything all the time. I know that's unrealistic but just pretend. play with me. They all agree on everything all the time. Who don't we need?
You.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 of them. We only need you or you. Doesn't matter. If they all agree, you only need one. Can you see my point at this stage? So what a leader does— and, and that's unrealistic, isn't it? There will always be disagreement. There will be conflict. What the leader does is look for the conflict because they are the opportunities. The new ideas, the new growth, the new direction doesn't come from lack of conflict. It always comes from conflict or disagreement. Disagreement opens the door to opportunity and that's what the leader's looking for, opportunity. So conflict isn't a bad thing. Conflict poorly managed can result in a bad thing but conflict itself is going to happen. In our previous slide, the 1s and the 10s are never going to agree. because they see the world so differently. They will be in constant conflict. The 2s and the 9s maybe as well. The rest are more able to compromise. So the last one there is the manager focuses on the present and the leader creates the future. So what's the difference? Let's look at what the difference is between the two. Here's our 3 pillars that we looked at earlier. We've got the operation. That's what your organisation exists to do. what it does. Then we've got management and leadership. Where's your comfort zone as a manager and a leader in your organization? Where do you think the natural comfort zone is for most people in the whole organization?
Operation.
Yeah, it's in operation.
Why?
Because that's what the organization exists to do. Whenever there's a problem, it's nearly always an operational problem, isn't it? Or the problem has its roots in operation or it has its solution back in operation and so the managers and leaders are constantly drawn back into operation and so the comfort zone tends to be there. The problem is because it's the comfort zone, you tend to get drawn there in terms of time and you can't be the manager and the leader and be involved in operation. Now I know some of you are in small organizations and you just have to be. I understand that. But management and leadership is a different issue to the operation. You need to see it as that. So let's look at the sweet spot. Our 3 golfers, where are you? Who was a golfer? We've got our friend over here. We've— ah, here's a man we haven't asked from yet. Can you explain to the people who are not golfers what the sweet spot is?
The sweet spot is where the ball hits the ground. The sweet spot is where everything comes together. And you basically get your timing, your swing, and the position of the clubhead on the ball in perfect synchronicity. And everything just flies.
And the result if you hit the sweet spot is what in golf?
You go to the bar and get pissed.
Apart from that?
Sorry, I haven't got past that point. But no, seriously, you have a—
No, you were being serious. We know that.
Yes. No, no, no. You have a fantastic—
What are the 2 things in golf? Distance and direction. Distance and direction. If you hit the sweet spot of the golf ball, you get the right distance that you want and you get the direction that you want. So the sweet spot is hitting the ball exactly where it needs to be hit. In management, your sweet spot is between 2 and 6. You are going to need to be specific. Now if you're naturally a global, you're going to find management a bit difficult, a bit challenging because you will want to see the big picture too much and too often. But management isn't big picture. Management is little picture. That doesn't mean bad. It just means you focus on the detail. So that's the management sweet spot. It's the magnifying glass. Here's the leadership sweet spot. You need to be global to be the leader and this is a real challenge because of course people are told in our society, in our culture that leadership is bigger and better than management. Well, it's not. It's just different. You need leaders. You need managers. In your sector as opposed to corporate, you have to be both. In corporate you can be one or the other. But the sweet spot for leadership is the 5 to the 9. However, there's a challenge. In your sector, you have to be both. So that means you have to develop a giant sweet spot. Your sweet spot has to go from 2 to 9. It has to cover the whole lot. Now, it's very unusual to find a person that covers 2 to 9. It's very unusual to find a person who is as competent in the specific as they are in the global. Although globals have more— have less difficulty being specific than specifics do being global. I'll run that by you again. Globals have less difficulty being specific than specifics do being global. Specifics have great difficulty seeing the big picture, but globals frequently can go into the little picture quite easily. So you have to develop those skills. So what do you do? Let's look. You've got 2 questions that you've got to ask. First of all, how do you need to do— what do you need to do and how do you need to do it? Assuming that you are not one who's naturally a 2 to 9, not naturally a sweet spot that covers the whole lot, not naturally one who can easily switch from global to specific. So assuming that there's a gap there, we need to work out what that is. There's 7 seismic shifts that you need to make if you're gonna move from management to leadership 'cause that's much more of a difficult move than leadership to management because most people come through management into leadership. So here's the 7 seismic shifts and I'll send you all of this information, by the way. If you give me your business card on that green sheet or write your details if you don't have a card, I'll send you all of this. The first is you've got to move from specialist to generalist. That can be really challenging for some people because their job is in detail and suddenly they have to be more general if they're going to be the leader. That can be difficult. The second is you need to go from analyst to integrator. Not analyzing all the information but now what does it all mean and where does it fit? What am I going to do with it? Who needs to know? Tactician to strategist. Working out strategy. I was talking to our friend at the end, John. You were saying that it's very difficult to get into strategy because there's so much involved in the detail. Is that what you were saying broadly? Yes.
When you're at the coalface and being involved in putting out fires all the time, it's very difficult to— Yeah.
The strategy. The fires aren't in management or leadership, are they? The fires are in operation. That's the problem. So the next one is— this I think is a fabulous one. It's a fabulous visual metaphor. You need to move from being bricklayer to being the architect and some people have enormous difficulty comprehending that one. But if you don't do the leadership stuff, your organization's going to falter or it's going to stagnate or it's going to fold. We all know that there's organisations in the not-for-profit sector folding all the time because they've lost their way or they're simply not keeping up with the world. Problem solver to agenda setter, warrior to diplomat I think is a really good one as well. The leader is the diplomat out there doing the diplomacy. The manager's the warrior fighting the fire so to speak and doing what needs to be done. The final one I think is another really good visual metaphor. Moving from supporting cast member to the lead role. Some people don't like the lead role. I was talking to a lady, I think it was in Wellington or Auckland. It was certainly in one of the New Zealand presentations last week and the week before. She said she hates being up front. She's perfectly happy, she's the CEO, but hates being up front. She doesn't like the limelight. I said, well, get used to it. If you're the CEO, you're the leader, get used to it. So for her there's an obvious gap. She doesn't have public speaking skills. She needs to go and get them. That's where we're about to lead to. Where are the gaps for you? So let's look at this. You have a choice now. You can either do nothing or you can do something. I hope that you'll do something and I'm gonna give you a couple of strategies now, strategies of things you can do quite specifically. 3 crucial things you need to know. Is there a gap? Now for most people there will be some gaps and the gap I can describe to you in this way. How many of you are CEO or the top dog or the chief of your organisation, the person who runs the place? Okay, here's the interesting thing. I bet you look after the professional development of your staff pretty well. I also bet you don't look after yours very well at all.
No.
This is part of it. I'll give you an illustration. Where do your staff think you are right now? If I rang your office and said, where is the boss? What would they say?
You'd get my voicemail 'cause I'm the only one.
Okay. Where? Where would they say? What would they say? At a function. No, they wouldn't. They wouldn't say he's at a function. What would they say? He's out for lunch. He's out for lunch. Wouldn't they probably say that, he's out for lunch? You've got them well trained, have you? Well done. That's 'cause you've found their sweet spot, haven't you? But most staff, would you agree, would say he's at lunch. What do you think they think you're doing?
