Coronavirus Conversations - Day 23: Fisetin, Immune Health and COVID-19 Vaccine
In this live COVID‑19 update, Dr. David Perlmutter reviews a range of recent findings and ideas relevant to the pandemic. He begins by discussing a randomized trial of 115 children that found a four‑fold increase in non‑influenza respiratory infections among those who received the seasonal trivalent flu vaccine, raising questions about possible temporary nonspecific immunity loss. He then shifts to the concept of immunosenescence, explaining how aging of the immune system contributes to severe COVID‑19 outcomes and introducing senolytic agents—azithromycin, hydroxychloroquine, rapamycin, doxycycline, and the natural flavonoid fisetin—as potential ways to clear aged immune cells and rejuvenate immunity. Perlmutter shares his personal use of fisetin and suggests a dosage of at least 100 mg per day. He highlights a novel microneedle‑array vaccine platform from the University of Pittsburgh that rapidly generated a recombinant coronavirus vaccine in mice, offering a promising alternative delivery method. A small Chinese study of four full‑term infants born to COVID‑positive mothers is summarized, noting no viral transmission but one case of transient respiratory distress. He then reviews a New England Journal of Medicine editorial titled “10 Weeks to Crush the Curve,” outlining a ten‑week, science‑driven strategy for suppressing the virus and reviving the economy, including unified command, mass testing, PPE for healthcare workers, population stratification, convalescent plasma use, public mobilization, and real‑time research. Practical hygiene advice follows, emphasizing disinfection of high‑touch surfaces such as door handles, elevator buttons, and delivered packages. Perlmutter answers audience questions on flu shots, fisetin dosage, throat pain remedies, and other topics, and concludes with a retelling of the King Midas story as a moral about valuing what truly matters over material wealth.
Chapters
Hello everyone, Dr. David Perlmutter here, and believe it or not, we are on update 23, coronavirus update 23. I went through a lot of the interesting comments from yesterday's time together with everyone, and I'm very appreciative of the 90,000 to 100,000 of you who participated. That was quite a busy time yesterday. I could not in real time go through those questions, but that was really A lot of interesting stuff. And one thing that piqued my interest was, you know, the discussion as to whether or not a flu shot right now is a good idea or not. And as I have been thinking about this, as many of you know, I've been thinking that perhaps now would be a good time to do everything you can not to get the flu, and if that includes a flu shot, then perhaps that's a good idea. However— I'd like you to take a look at this post. This is a study that is really quite interesting. I think it's something that we should all consider. This is a randomized trial of 115 children, and they gave them a trivalent typical flu shot, and they followed these kids for 9 months. And what they found was that the children who had received the flu vaccine Had a fourfold increased risk for getting other types of viruses like rhinovirus. That's the type of virus that typically causes the common cold. Other viruses that kids get like Coxsackievirus and what they called other viruses. Followed these kids through the winter, spring, into the summertime, 9 months, and they found that the kids who had received the flu shot had a fourfold Increased risk for other viral infections. This was published in Clinical Infectious Diseases, a peer-reviewed journal, and their statement is, being protected against influenza with the trivalent vaccine, these recipients may lack temporary nonspecific immunity that protected against other respiratory viruses. How does that relate to our current situation? I do not know. But I think it is something to consider that perhaps there may be some immunological downregulation or compromise from the flu shot, at least as described in this study. So that's an argument on the other side of what I have been talking about, and I think it's really good to vet these other ideas so we can ultimately come up with, you know, a recommendation. Now, I want to move into an area that is really very, very exciting. It's an area that we've covered over the past couple of weeks, and it's the idea— and I mentioned it in the intro text— it's the idea of the fact that as we age, our immune systems become less and less functional. We have senescence or aging of our immune systems, and they become less able to deal with various things to which we are exposed. And also, I'm going to post something right now. Take a look at this. Also, less able to regulate the inflammation process, and we know that's a huge issue as it relates to this COVID-19 infection. There's research now indicating that there is this functional relationship that exists between COVID-19 and its manifestations—a relationship between these manifestations and aging. We know, for example, that there are two receptors on the cell where the virus. binds that are also playing a role in the aging process. They're called the CD26 receptor and the ACE2 receptor, or angiotensin-converting enzyme type 2 receptor. We've been talking about this, but these are also receptors that play a role in aging, in what we call senescence. So it's very interesting that some of the drugs that are being proposed to used to treat this virus— stay with me on this— are also drugs that have been shown to have a role to play in this process of aging. For example, azithromycin, or Zithromax, Z-Pak. We've talked about that and how that's being used, or proposed to be used, being studied, along with a malaria drug, anti-malaria drug called hydroxychloroquine. And interestingly, it looks as if both hydroxychloroquine and Zithromax have roles to play in regulating or reducing senescence. They have what is called senolytic, it means they break down old aged cells. So it's really quite interesting to look at this because other drugs then that act similarly like rapamycin, doxycycline, Stay with me on this because I'm going to give you some actionable points here. Should also be tested, as these researchers say, because these anti-aging drugs may have a prominent role in preventing the transmission of the virus as well as aid in its treatment. Well, why is this something we should be thinking about? It's something to be thinking about because we're talking about the pathway that leads to allowing our bodies to rid themselves of aging immune cells And repopulate with younger, more aggressive, more functional immune cells. We all need that. It's very clear that one of the biggest risk factors for having a bad outcome from COVID-19 is being older. So, you know, you can't wind back the chronological time, but perhaps we can address the biological clock and, and do things. So it's It's time then we look at what are these activities that can help target these pathways. One of them we explored last week, and that is fasting. Remember, we did that last Sunday and a whole group of you fasted with me. We fasted for 24 hours. That's a way of jazzing up your immune system, making it more youthful. There are also a host of natural products that also are involved in this process of Senescence, and these are called senolytics. Again, these are natural products that break down these senescent cells and can give us perhaps a more youthful immune system. One of them we've talked about; it's available non-prescription health food stores online. I'm taking it myself. Is called fisetin, F-I-S-E-T-I-N. Let me read to you from the link that I just sent you. The natural product fisetin has senotherapeutic— I mean, helps aged cells— activity in mice and also in human tissues. Late-life intervention was sufficient to yield potent health benefit. These characteristics suggest the feasibility to translation to human clinical studies. I can't see a downside. I'm taking it myself. I'll have to let you guys decide what you want to do based on the information. Please take a look at the link that I just sent you. Next, in the intro text, I talked about some kind of exciting news as it relates to the development of a vaccine. What we're being told, rightfully so, is that immunization protocol is at least a year, if not 18 months, off Now, that is based upon what we've done in the past, based upon the development of immunization programs in the past. There is some very new and exciting research that is coming our way from the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine. I'm going to send you the link to that now. I'd like you to take a look at that. Why is it important? It's important because these researchers and It's coming to you now— have developed a new technique using what is called microneedle array delivered recombinant coronavirus vaccines. Basically, this is a leading-edge research team that very quickly developed a vaccine protocol for use in the MERS outbreak. Remember, we've had SARS, we've had MERS, now we have this COVID-19. So, or MERS COVID vaccine, and these researchers have shown that it works quite dramatically in laboratory mice, allowing them to develop measurable high levels of a specific antibody directed very specifically against the antigen or protein found in one of the covering proteins of the COVID-19 virus. So let me read what they said. Driven by the urgent need for COVID-19 vaccines, we utilized this strategy to rapidly develop this vaccine and tested their preclinical immunogenicity in vivo mice by exploiting our other experience doing this in MERS. Take a look at that. I am actually really excited about this. You know, this is a very, very highly regarded institution. This isn't something that somebody sent us, you know, as a text about some new thing that somebody said we should be doing. These are legitimate researchers, and I'm really looking forward to watching how this develops. As far as developing testing protocols, yesterday we talked about 240 new ideas, new laboratories that are— or laboratories that are developing new testing protocols. We know how darn important that is. If a woman is pregnant and develops COVID-19 infection, what is the risk to her unborn child once that child is born? And I'd like to look at that because it's certainly a question that I've been asked multiple times, and I haven't really had a good answer because there really hasn't been anything published But as you might expect, because of where we're going with this, now there is. This is a new study, a very small study, but it looked at 4 full-term infants who were born to women who had tested positive for COVID-19 in the city of Wuhan, which is where we all saw the outbreak begin. And all 4 of these infants were virus negative, or did not show evidence through their testing of carrying the virus. One child did have some issues and required ventilation with a rapid heartbeat for 3 days, but they didn't have any evidence, any proven test-positive evidence of coronavirus. Still, a woman who is pregnant would want to do everything everything she possibly could to avoid this infection. But the— this is a little glimmer of some very, very good news. An interesting article appeared in the very prestigious New England Journal of Medicine. I feel like we're doing the news right now. I guess we are. So I'm going to tell you the title of this. You know, the New England Journal of Medicine is very conservative, but here is the title. 10 Weeks to Crush the Curve. Love it. The editorial begins by stating that, as the president says, we are at war with coronavirus, as we are. And the author says it's a war we should fight to win. The economy is in the tank, and anywhere from thousands to more than a million Americans' lives are in jeopardy. Most analyses of options and trade-offs assume that both the pandemic and the economic setback must play out over a period of many months for the pandemic and even longer for the economic recovery. However, as the economists would say, there is a dominant option, one that simultaneously limits fatalities and gets the economy cranking again in a sustainable way. The author then goes on to list the areas that we need to focus on and talks about how we can get this thing done in the next 10 weeks. Now, I know there's been talk about a shorter time period, expecting this thing to peak out, you know, in the next few weeks. Most of the research that's coming out indicates that that is not likely, that we have to take a deep breath and prepare for this thing to Continue to ramp up and ultimately do the very best that we can to bring this thing to an end in a timely fashion. 6 things. Establish unified command. Not somebody who coordinates across agencies, but a commander appointed by the president who can mobilize every civilian and military asset needed to win this war. Number 2, make millions of diagnostic tests available. But, you know, certainly that's something that we've been talking about. It's something that we've seen. Number 3, we know about as well, supply healthcare workers with protective equipment. Number 4, differentiate the population into 5 groups. We need to know who's infected, who's presumed to be infected, who has been exposed, who is not known to be exposed. And 5th, very important, we need to think about this, We need to identify people who have been infected, gotten ill, and recovered for a number of reasons. They may be able to use their plasma to create resistance to infection for other people, and they can get back into the workforce as well, especially as it relates to healthcare. Inspire and mobilize the public, and finally, learn while doing through real-time fundamental research. In other words, yes, doing our very best to treat people, but have research going on at the same time and share information not just across institutions but around the globe. We know we have the infrastructure to do that, and we can absolutely make this work. We need to know, you know, when it's time to tell people, yes, it's safe to go back to work. Let me just summarize. I'll read. If we take this concerted and determined approach and are guided by science, we can begin to revive businesses of all kinds, including airlines, hotels, restaurants, and entertainment venues. By putting cash in people's pockets over the next couple of months, protecting small businesses, and releasing constraints on credit, the president, Congress, and the Federal Reserve will have positioned the economy for a roaring Come back once this virus is out of the picture. So job one is really to get the virus out of the picture, and the way to do that, the way that we do that, is to act as Dr. Anthony Fauci has been telling us, and that is to isolate and reduce the spread. Now I want to tell you an interesting experience that I had today. Somebody very close to me. needs to get injections into her eyes about every 5 weeks because she has what is called macular degeneration. And this injected medicine into her eyes is saving her vision. So we recognize that it's something that's— it's mandatory. And I decided I would take her today. And once I had her gloved and masked and brought her in, she checked in. Sat by herself in the waiting room. I went outside and waited and just observed people walking into the eye doctor's office one after another. And unfortunately, it was, it was really quite an experience for me because one after another, these people barehanded, rubbing their faces, grabbing the door handle, Opening the door, walking in, same thing going out, not recognizing that that door handle was potentially a powerful vector for transmitting this infection. It would have been quite simple to have left the door open, put a doorstop, leave the door open so they wouldn't have to handle that spot, each and every one of them. Although a couple did, did do it appropriately. And, or beyond that, maybe somebody from the medical offices, not just eye doctors but walk-in clinics, etc., or anywhere that people have to open a door, maybe people could spray the, the door handle with something that is antiviral like alcohol, like bleach, like Lysol, something. But I thought about all these individuals Who were exposed today through the fact that we're not getting the word out in terms of all these potential vectors. I'm very pleased to see that there are Instagram posts and even Dr. Sanjay Gupta yesterday has done a brief video on how we should treat the packages that arrive at our homes. That could be another important vector for transmitting virus. Not just from the place at Amazon where they were packed, but even the delivery person who's handling package after package all day long. That individual's hands could be contaminated, and then that package is on your front step, a powerful source of potential, at least in terms of bringing the virus into your home. So what do we do? We spray the package, or ideally leave it outside for a couple of days, then spray the package, then open it, dump the contents onto the driveway or whatever, even into your garage, and leave it. Hopefully it's wrapped in something like plastic that you could then treat again with your antiviral. Now I'll answer a few questions, and then we're going to have a short story today that I think— I'm hoping that you'll find to be inspiration. Oh, inspirational. And I'll just let you know ahead of time, the short story is the story of King Midas. Many of you may think that you know this story. We all know about Midas, but I think you'll enjoy how this short story ends up. Let's take a look at some of these questions. Okay. Many people are asking about— are asking about what I had mentioned earlier about the flu shot. And again, I don't know that we could say yay or nay. Certainly, if individuals have underlying pulmonary issues, they are the ones who traditionally are recommended to get the flu shot. But let's take a look at the article I posted that'll be housed on drperlmutter.com Read it and then see what you think. Everyone needs to stay home. Too many people want to buy all the toilet paper. Yeah, I'll give you guys a clue here. This may be worth the price of admission, which is nothing. Maybe it's worth something. What you can do is go to restaurant supply companies and order toilet paper by the caseload, 96 rolls at a time. That should be enough for most households. There are various of them. You can go online and find them. There are 8 strains of COVID-19. That's interesting. There are probably several thousand strains of coronavirus. Thank you, Loriann, for that. Vaccines are neurotoxic. You know, there are some concerns about vaccines. I think much of those issues, especially as it related to the thimerosal or mercury preservative, I think most vaccines certainly don't contain them anymore. And, but that said, we're in a different place now. I mean, we're in a place where we have to think about risk and benefit. As, for example, it relates to hydroxychloroquine, that that may be effective with respect to coronavirus. On the other hand, there are risks with respect to heart toxicity and even visual loss. Okay, let's see. Somebody says they agree. Big Pharma has clout. Yeah. Okay. You know, I want to say that there's, and there always is, there are conspiracy kinds of ideas that I believe, you know, we're clearly seeing them, even some in this text. I would say that That isn't really interesting for me. There are plenty of other venues to look at that stuff if that's your interest. I am just really interested in projecting whatever science I come upon, and it's really, really up to you. Fisetin dosage recommended? I think at least 100 milligrams a day. Of course, check with your healthcare practitioners. Big Pharma and doctors like this pushing drugs. Okay, I'm not sure I have pushed any drug, but I'm just trying to give information. Anyway, let me take a couple of more questions or comments. And good, good, there's a response to some of these comments. ¿Qué tomar para dolor de garganta? Ana Trujillo. I would say, I would say Tylenol would be a good choice. I think that there is some concern. The question is, what should I take for throat pain? I think in general Tylenol. You know, I used to use Sucrettes. They numbed my throat when I had a sore throat when I was younger. I haven't had a sore throat in a long time. So you might— that's also something else to try. Canada is so unprepared. I might say that while their prevalence of this disease is certainly high, they have some areas of preparation I think that are at least, you know, that are admirable. The fact that Toronto, the city, has on hand 50 million masks I think is forward-thinking. All right. Okay. Oh, how do I get an email? Oh, I'm not sending out emails. Oh, so Sandra, I'm posting links to things right now on here and also just go to drpermutter.com. That's where you'll find a whole repository of all these research studies that we're talking about. Yes, and Alex Dixon, door handles, lift buttons, elevator buttons, light switches, toilet handles, fridge doors. Yes, anywhere that people can connect. Those are all good points. All those should be absolutely— should absolutely be sterilized. I think certainly you should be thinking about having who comes into your home or not. Okay. Does smoking medical CBD calm the lungs for COVID-19? Don't have an answer to that, but interestingly, there was one study I was reading last night, or an editorial, that was talking about why so many of America's kids, younger people, are having such bad response or are doing poorly in comparison to other countries. And one of them might be vaping. You know, vaping we know is traumatic to the lungs. It might set people up for worse outcome. Okay. Okay. So let me move— last question. What is the mortality rate on COVID-19? We actually covered that yesterday. If you just go back and listen to our program yesterday, you will have the answer to that. We're going to have a short story today, and it is brought to us by Amy Friedman and Meredith Johnson. I found it on their site online, and the story is called King Midas and the Golden Touch. Once upon a time, there lived a king named Midas who loved gold. King Midas had a daughter named Goldie whom he loved with all his heart. But Midas often neglected his child, for he spent all his time admiring his treasure rooms and counting his gold. Father, Goldie would say, come outside with me and see the flowers blooming. No time, Midas would answer, idly patting her head. Here, my child, this dazzling golden necklace will amuse you. Goldie did not care for jewels or for gold. She loved walking barefoot in her simple clothes over grassy fields, She loved the feel of the wind in her hair, roses and birdsongs, the light in the sky at dusk and dawn, the scent of wood smoke and lilacs. She often walked alone, wishing that her father would join her and learn to love the world as she did. One day, Midas sat in his treasure room counting his gold, and a man appeared before him. He did not look like any ordinary man. He wore a leopard skin around his broad, bronzed shoulders, And vines were twined around his head. Who are you? Midas asked. I am Bacchus, god of wine and pleasure, the stranger said. I have come to thank you for being kind to my old teacher, Silenus. The gods do not forget such kindness. I have come to grant you any wish you make. Ah, yes, Midas said, for he remembered an old man who had appeared one night at the palace gates, Midas had given him food and shelter, and the old man had thanked him and promised he would be rewarded. So a god had come to give thanks. Midas was thrilled. Please be seated, Midas said, and look at my beautiful coins. Bacchus smiled weakly. I prefer the grapes, the way grapes glow when the sun shines down on them. Midas laughed. Grapes, grapes look best when served on a golden platter, he said. My only wish is for gold. I wish all that I touched would turn to gold. Your wish is granted, Bacchus said with a frown on his face, and disappeared as quickly as he appeared. Just then, Midas heard the bell calling him to eat. He turned to leave the room, but as he touched the door, he gasped, for it had turned to gold. He touched his robe, and it too turned to gold. He looked down and saw that his leather sandals were pure gold. He walked through the hallways, touching everything he passed. The columns turned to gold, as did the floor beneath his feet. By the time he reached the table, he was brimming with excitement. Goldie! he cried. I am the happiest man in the world! But Father, Goldie said, Your robe is stiff. Solid gold! Midas cried. The gods have granted me the golden touch. Look at your chair, Father, Goldie said unhappily. Sure enough, it was gold. And his napkin turned to gold with his touch. We are the luckiest people in all the world, he said, reaching for a piece of bread. But to his horror, the bread had turned to gold. Oh no! he cried. This was terrible indeed. He could not eat anything, for everything he touched turned to gold. Staring down at his golden plate, he wondered what to do. Oh, Father, you will starve! Goldie exclaimed. She ran to his side to comfort him. No, no! he cried, but before he could stop her, she had thrown her arms around him, and now his precious daughter was hard and cold, a golden statue, no longer a child. Oh, Bacchus! Midas cried. Take this dreadful gift away! I want my child! But Bacchus was far away by then. He did not hear the king's cry. All that night, the poor king wept, holding his daughter in his arms, wishing he could undo what he had done. I will never be greedy again! He called to the gods, please send Bacchus to me. I will be different from now on. At dawn, Bacchus appeared. Do you still love gold so much? he asked the king. No. Take away my golden touch and give me back my child. Go to the river, Bacchus said. Bathe yourself and you will be cured. Midas ran like lightning to the river and dived into the water. As he did, small golden pellets floated past, but Midas no longer cared for these. He scrubbed and prayed to the gods, and before long his clothing became soft and white again, and his sandals turned to soft leather. He ran back to the palace and clasped his daughter to him. A moment later she began to grow soft and warm. Oh, Father, she said, as her lips began to move, Father, I dreamed I could not speak or move. I dreamed that all the world was gold. Midas held her close to him. A terrible dream, my darling. That night, as Midas ate his dinner, he licked his lips. Never have I tasted such wonderful food. When he unfolded his napkin, he smiled at Goldie and said, and this linen is so beautiful. He took Goldie's hands in his. And you, my child, you are more precious than gold. Will you walk in the woods with me tonight, Father? Goldie asked. I will, of course, the king said with delight. That evening, Goldie and King Midas walked into the woods, and he found more happiness than he had ever known. Now Midas understood what real treasures were. Folks, that's all I have for today. I will be back tomorrow. Thank you for all of your comments. Bye for now.
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