Coronavirus Conversations, Day 40: Immunity, Vitamin D, Blood Sugar & Outcomes, and the Western Diet

Well, hello everyone. Dr. David Perlmutter, glad to be with you today. Got some, hopefully you'll find interesting information to share with you today. It's been a very interesting last couple of days. As you know, this whole situation tends to mature a little bit, we begin to see some trends that are emerging looking at other countries in terms of the reactions to their choices in terms of behavior. and certainly seeing things happening here in our country which are manifesting the changes in our behavior. And as I lead in with that, I'd like to say that nothing has changed with respect to the virus, with respect to its virulence, and with respect to how aggressive it can be in terms of both morbidity and mortality. That— those markers haven't changed. Those metrics have not changed. And yet Our behavior seems to be changing in such a way that we are not necessarily validating the importance anymore of what we know works. There's so many things out there that we've talked— we've been talking about, whether it's drugs, nutritional supplements, lifestyle choices, going keto, all the things. And those are all interesting, but that said, what we know does work Is the idea of distancing ourselves from others, wearing masks, and washing our hands. And for whatever reason, those things are seemingly being abandoned. We here in my town, Naples, Florida, decided a few days ago that we would open up the beaches, giving people the opportunity to go to the beach. And as soon as that happened, we were flooded with people. Flooded with people coming over from places where the beaches are not open, which is Fort Lauderdale and Miami, to the extent that there was incredible overcrowding on our beaches. Nobody was respecting social distancing, and to the extent that Naples had to again close its beaches, which I think was the right thing to do. We know that the best thing we can do in order to reduce the spread is to reduce the— our contact with others, or our close contact with So nothing has changed. Please keep that in mind. Everybody is having a tough time adapting to the way things need to be right now. How long will they need to be this way? We don't know, but keep that in mind. How can we identify those who are sick? And then those people need to be isolated, and that is by testing. And I thought in terms of data, we should begin looking at at the testing data and recognize that, you know, we're starting to do a better job as it relates to testing in terms of what we're doing here in America. Of major countries, United States, despite what you may think, we rank 9th in terms of per capita testing. The country that ranks highest in terms of per capita testing is Spain. At about 53 per million population, 53,000 tests done per million population. Portugal, 50,000 per million population. Italy at 42,000. Russia at 38,000. Germany, Canada, and the U.S. is about half of what Spain is doing right now as of May 11th for you know, this is— today's May the 12th. So as of yesterday, the United States is doing half the number of tests per capita in comparison to Spain. So I think it'd be really good just to keep that in mind. It does look as if we are speeding that up, increasing the number of tests that are being performed. But when you hear that we're doing, you know, all these incredible number of tests, the reality is in comparison to other countries, it may not necessarily be the case. Let me post that link for all of you so you can look at those data on your own and see how you feel about that. I want you to know that it does look as if we are picking up the number of tests that we are doing, and that's certainly good news. A lot of you are asking me in the texts that we get Will I get a vaccine? Will I have my family get vaccinated? Let me answer the second part of that first. My kids are grown, they make their own decisions. My wife makes her own decision and I make my own decision. Now, as to whether or not I will get a vaccine when it becomes available, I'm not able to answer that question yet. Why? Because I want to be darn sure that the vaccine, once it is released, is Likely I will get it, but I don't know. And I know I'll be getting a lot of comments now that vaccines are toxic, on and on. There have been bad events that have occurred, side effects of vaccines in the past. They are not completely benign, but the question is, what is the risk-benefit ratio? And that is something that we will need to look at. Likely what I'm going to do is not be the first in line. I will see how it plays out with others. Unfortunately, some of these side effects may take months and months to manifest, and so we won't know. There then comes the question of this herd immunity and the idea that we get this virus and then we are immune. Some researchers are now challenging that. The idea of herd immunity from people, a lot of people contracting coronavirus challenging whether that is necessarily something that we should expect to happen by default. Some pretty well-respected researchers are just looking at the idea that we may not get full immunity if we are infected. And I in fact discussed that the day before yesterday in our post, that especially people who have minimal symptoms, around 10% of them do not look like they are expressing antibodies against COVID-19, meaning that they may not be immune. So what can we look at then to give us some sense as to where— what we can expect? And we don't have obviously long-term ways of looking retrospectively at immunity as it relates to this coronavirus infection. But we can look at SARS-CoV-1, SARS-CoV-1, another coronavirus infection. We can look at the data from that event that occurred. This was published back in 2006. Let me give you the reference for that guy. And there it comes. All right, take a look at that. And here's what we learned from that experience published in the Journal of Infectious Diseases. They looked at 56 patients who were convalescing, they were recovering. from their infection, they followed these folks for 2 years. And what did they learn? They measured their IgG levels, their long-term antibody levels, as well as what are called neutralizing antibodies. Now IgG antibodies are very specific against the whatever virus or bacteria. Neutralizing antibodies are a little bit more broad scope. And they found that the peak of these IgG and neutralizing antibodies occurred at 4 months out. I'm not talking about our current virus, COVID-19. I'm talking about SARS-CoV-1, which is perhaps very similar. They found that by month 16, the IgG antibodies were undetectable in 12% of the patients. Ultimately, by— that they remained present, sorry, until month 16, but by month 24, they were undetectable in about 12% of patients. So that was the graphic that I posted on Facebook yesterday that I wanted you to look at. That shows— now keep in mind, this is SARS-CoV-1— the decline in antibodies. The next thing I'd like to talk about— oh, here's something I want to put out there, and then we'll continue on with the science for all of you. I'm going to give you lyrics to a song. This is very random, but I was just thinking about it. And don't Google this. Let's see who can come up with the name of the song, 2 words, and here are some lyrics to the song. I know this is totally random, but why don't we break this up a little bit? And the lyrics are, leaves are falling all around, time I was on my way. All right, we'll see who gets the answer to that. Don't Google it. Let's be fair about this. See if you can figure that out. I have an eclectic taste in music, and we'll learn about that soon. Next, I want to look at some science. I think this is very important because it's going to be information for each and every one of you in terms of what you can do right away as it relates to doing something positive should you become infected, and it is controlling your blood sugar. The study that just came out is called Association of Blood Glucose Control and outcomes in patients with COVID-19 and pre-existing type 2 diabetes. Believe me, this has more to do with you than you can imagine, even if you are not— Monica, you are right on. Monica got it. Gosh, lots of people got it. You got it as well. Wow. Elaine, good. I'm gonna have to make these harder. Golly gee, a lot of you got this. Yeah, the song. Let's get the name of the song. Not John Denver. No, Peggy, Cousin Peggy. It's not. It is Ramble On by Led Zeppelin. All right, here is this reference I'd like you all to look at. And again, if you don't want to break away from our time together right now, which I can understand, look at the references. They're going to be at the top of the list on drperlmutter.com of references in the coronavirus section that we have just So anyway, let's talk about this study. We know that having type 2 diabetes or coronary artery disease or obesity are significant factors that relate to worse outcome if you are hospitalized with COVID-19. But these researchers looked at over 7,000 individuals who were hospitalized In China, 952 or close to 1,000, 1/7 of these individuals, that should tell you something, 1/7 of the people hospitalized had type 2 diabetes. And they found 2 things that are important. First, that the individuals who had type 2 diabetes required much, much more in the way of medical interventions and had a significantly higher mortality Uh, in terms of the people who were hospitalized. Mortality rate, if you had type 2 diabetes and were hospitalized, was 7.8%, uh, in contrast to having a mortality of 2.7% if you were not diabetic. If you had diabetes, you had much higher risk for multiple organ injury in comparison to those who are non-diabetic. Now here's the important take-home message. That if you were diabetic and hospitalized, if your blood sugar was well controlled, your outcome was much better. Now, what did they mean well controlled? Well controlled in this study was between 70 and 180 milligrams per deciliter. Wow! 180 is a very high in my my book a very high blood sugar. I would indicate that this study showed that diabetics with better blood sugar control did better. I would submit that it's my opinion that anybody diabetic or non-diabetic will likely have a better outcome if they are hospitalized and they have a lower blood sugar in general. So what's take-home message here? Take-home message is lower your blood sugar today while you are healthy. If you are showing blood sugars in the 110, 120 range, that's not a good blood sugar. Maybe it's— you would consider that to be in the normal range, although it's not. But even a blood sugar of 100, I think, should be challenged. Let's get our blood sugars into the optimal range, optimal being 80 to 90. And that would be going on a diet that eliminates simple sugars, eliminates refined carbohydrates, A diet that's got a lot of good fiber in it, that's mostly vegetables with high fiber, lots of color on your plate. And recognize that keeping your blood sugar low will lower your risk of Alzheimer's, heart disease, certainly diabetes, will help you with your weight control, and I believe based on this and other research will absolutely bode well for you should you become hospitalized. with this virus. Now next, I'd like to talk about vitamin D. There's not a day goes by that we don't get— have our time together and people are asking about vitamin D, what dosage, what other supplements, on and on. I think I'll probably write a blog about supplements just so I can memorialize it for everybody and annotate that with specific dosages. I think that would be a good idea. So Jonathan, if you're watching, I know that You've asked me to do that from our team. I'll do that. But what I'd like to say is that there's lots of good reasons that we should keep our vitamin D levels up. And, you know, as it relates to COVID-19 specifically, what the observations— and have I posted the— I have not, I don't think. Let me post the link. Of course, you can go to drperlmutter.com, and we just posted this one, but— There you go, everybody. Okay, take a look at that when you have a moment. Why would we suspect that vitamin D would be important? Well, there are some observations that we've noted that really might point to vitamin D. The outbreak occurred in the winter in the Northern Hemisphere and in the summer in the Southern Hemisphere, with much less of an outbreak in the Southern Hemisphere when it was Summertime, more sunshine. Maybe there's a vitamin D connection there. We've been talking about that for years as it relates to the reason possibly that there's more multiple sclerosis the further away from the equator a person lives, either north of the equator or south of the equator. We've looked at vitamin D as possibly explaining that less sunshine. We know that we see Worse outcome in terms of respiratory diseases in general, and specifically acute respiratory distress syndrome , which is seen to be a frequently lethal event in COVID-19. That's been seen to be related to having lower levels of vitamin D. And finally, we know that the risk of being Mortality, the risk of dying from COVID-19 increases with age. The older we get, the more that is associated with lower levels of vitamin D and outright vitamin D deficiency. So those things, at least from an epidemiological aspect, would tell us that maybe there's something going on here with vitamin D we should pay attention. But the the article that I just sent you is called Evidence. That vitamin D supplementation could reduce risk of influenza and COVID-19 infections and death. What a title! That kind of answers a lot of the questions that you guys have been posing all along. So what is it about vitamin D? Well, vitamin D is what we call pluripotential, meaning it has incredible potentials in many spheres that are involved in immunity. Both the innate or primitive immune system that responds immediately and the adaptive immune response that then builds things like antibodies and memory cells that allows us to respond to something once we've been exposed to that. Vitamin D is playing a big role in both of those parts of our immune system. Its net effect then is to boost immunity While it simultaneously helps to dampen down excessive inflammation. So it's getting us on the front end, helping us by helping us deal with pathogens, but also should we become infected, it's helping dampen down inflammation. Keep in mind that a lethal event can be lethal in this infection. COVID-19 is this overexpression of cytokines or inflammatory chemicals called the cytokine storm, which is basically inflammation going on unchecked in the body, burning all the organs, if you will. And it looks like vitamin D plays a role in keeping inflammation calmed down, allowing it to happen, but not to get out of line. We know that vitamin D can generally reduce infections, and how that happens is because vitamin D helps to induce chemicals in the body or activate chemicals that act as what we call antimicrobial peptides. And I've talked about this before. One of them that I've studied a lot is called cathelicidin D, and cathelicidin helps us to engulf and get rid of viruses and bacteria. We know that it can lower the rates at which viruses replicate, and also, as I just mentioned, it can reduce this explosion of inflammatory cytokines. So it is these inflammatory cytokines that damage the lining of the lung, and that then leads to other infections taking place. Things like pneumonia happen, and anything we can do to prevent that might be a good thing. It's why these authors are arguing in favor of vitamin D supplementation. In interventional trials, vitamin D supplementation has been shown to reduce risk of influenza. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to reduce the risk of COVID-19, but it's just a little bit more evidence that we need to noodle A little bit. So all of these things need to be considered in terms of taking vitamin D. In an ideal world, you would know your vitamin D level before and after supplementation. Getting your vitamin D level up to a level of 50 or 60, I think, is what I'm doing, something that you may want to consider. I take around 5,000 IU each day of vitamin D3. Along with the other supplements that we've talked about before. I do have one other article, but I'm thinking of saving it. Let me know what you guys think. It's called The Western Diet and Lifestyle and Diseases of Civilization. Yeah, you know what? Let's talk about it real quick. Well, yeah, let me talk about that one real quick, and I'll just go through it very quickly. And this is an interesting report that I read yesterday, and it's talking about basically why our current diet. Uh, is putting us at risk for chronic degenerative conditions, uh, like hypertension, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, obesity, and coronary heart disease. Well, guess what? These are all powerful risk factors for a bad outcome with COVID-19. So therefore, we can connect the dots between our modern Western diet and lifestyle and perhaps risk for bad outcome with COVID-19. Basically what the, the study talks about is this mismatch between our current diet and lifestyle and our genome that has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years where we influence the expression of our genes based upon the foods that we ate, the animal foods products that we would either get by hunting animals or come upon once they had died And certainly the vegetables that we would find, or plants basically, that we would come across and eat as we were hunters and gatherers. Not highly processed food, not food containing additives, and certainly not sugar or highly refined carbohydrates. Why what I just said is important is because please understand that the foods that you eat change your gene expression and modulate your immune response. The foods that you eat help control your gene expression, and that can modulate your immune function. And it's not just the foods that you eat, but also exercise changes gene expression, as does sleep, and even getting out into nature changes your gene expression. And these are powerful levers that you can pull if you want to enhance your immunity. And that's what all the discussion is today. I'm getting so many emails and pitches for this or that product because apparently, you know, it's been shown to enhance your immune function, and certainly that's something that we want to do these days. But you've already got the tools. Each and every one of you has the tools. It is the dietary change we've been talking about. It's exercise and getting enough sleep and limiting stress. I would add to that limiting stress part, turning off the TV. Maybe watch the evening news to get informed, but I wouldn't be watching it later on in the evening when you're trying to go to sleep. Limit your intake of that stress-providing, stress-inducing media. inducing experience. Spend more time doing other things. Let's just see. Oh, I have an eggplant I'm getting ready to harvest in the news today. I think I'll do that live on Facebook if anyone's interested. Let me answer some questions right now. We want to read Wheat Belly. May want to read Wheat Belly. Yes, that's a good point. I love the book. That William Davis, terrific guy, that book really got me started. What is the optimal level of vitamin D? You know, it's a discussion, Laura, that you might want to have with your healthcare provider. I keep my level around 50 to 70 or even 80. Seems higher, but I have chosen that for myself. Good, Samantha agrees with that. Great. Okay, Monica, I'm not sure what it is I'm going to address. Says 5,000 units of IU a day and then get tested, adjust as necessary. If, if you have the ability to go to your healthcare provider and get tested, might be something to consider. But you know what, I would say go to a healthcare provider right now only if it is something very important. In other words, if you're ill. You're not going to get in any trouble with 1,000 or 2,000 units of vitamin D a day, I don't think, but again, that is something you should pick up the phone and discuss with your healthcare provider. Alexander Dickinson, for a vegan, great question, because vitamin D is generally sourced from animal products. How about getting out in the sunshine? Your body will make lots of vitamin D In just 15 minutes of sunshine, you know, with exposure of some skin. You have to expose your skin to vitamin D. And guess what? Your body makes vitamin D out of the dreaded chemical in your body called cholesterol. Oh, that should give you the willies, right? Cholesterol is important. We need our body's cholesterol. That's what you make vitamin D out of. And you also make estrogen, progesterone, Testosterone, cortisol, these are made from cholesterol in your body. Now, think back a few episodes ago when we talked about why it is that women have a better outcome in comparison to men, less hospitalization and better outcome, might be because of higher levels of estrogen and progesterone. In New York, there's a study now going on giving hospitalized patients Estrogen, and in California, a study giving hospitalized patients progesterone. But let's keep in mind that both estrogen and progesterone, and how we got here, vitamin D, are made from cholesterol. Now that might cause us to rethink our battle with cholesterol. You know, the idea of taking drugs to lower cholesterol because it's such an enemy— it is not an enemy. Think about taking medication to lower your cholesterol when you consider that there are upsides to cholesterol in your body as well. Obviously a discussion to have with your healthcare provider, but our bodies are desperate, desperate for cholesterol. Most of the cholesterol in your body doesn't come from your diet. You make it in your own liver. Why would your liver make cholesterol? Because your body needs it. Desperately. So let's move on. Glad you asked that question. Wow, yes, I have fibromyalgia and arthritis. Just took vitamin D. Mine is usually low due to fibromyalgia. With all due respect, I'm not sure the fibromyalgia is making your D low, but it may be the other way around. Your vitamin D being low may increase inflammation that may manifest as fibromyalgia. My immune system is terrible. I hear you, Pamela. But you know what, now that you know this about vitamin D, that glass became half full in the blink of an eye. So you may very well, may very well have an answer here, who knows. My level's 89, says one individual. Hello from Brighton. Sugar and simple carbs is the diet problem. Barry, we've been saying that for a long time. So So, good point. Monica calls attention to the fact that COVID infected meat processing workers. That is correct. You know, and we need to think that in any occupation in which people are right on top of each other for an entire day, that's a threat. And so it's something to be considered. Okay. Interesting. Mexican family took for COVID-19 3 times 500 milligrams of bear aspirin mixed in with hot lemon, featured in the article in Italy. Being they were all well the next day, fully recovered. Interesting. Three individuals. It's that's a very you know three individuals. How can we say that it was related to taking the aspirin? But it brings up a very interesting topic in the 1918 influenza pandemic. That was called the Spanish flu, though it likely originated in Kansas. There was a report that aspirin was helpful and people started taking large dosages of aspirin. It was relatively new at the time and it was killing people. It was— there were tens of thousands of people who lost their lives as a consequence of aspirin toxicity. Wow. So I would simply say that this dosage of aspirin, I don't think is, you know, a threat, but these people were taking massive dosages back then. But I am bringing this to our attention. Why? Because I think it's really important when people start to promote things, not just online and social media, but even when our so-called experts start to latch onto ideas that, you know, a small study demonstrated such and such might be helpful. Take a deep breath and maybe not jump into that with both feet. See how things play out. I'll take a couple more questions and then have a couple more comments. Oh good! Well, people say they love being part of the garden. We'll probably do a live one from from there tomorrow. Adeja Fuestel tells us that you can get tested online for vitamin. I suppose you mean for vitamin D? That would be great. That would be great to know. What if your blood pressure is controlled with meds? Great question. I think that Pat Langford is asking the question in reference to then if your blood pressure is controlled, are you still at risk because of your, you know, if you become hospitalized with COVID-19? As we talked about, lower risk for diabetics if their blood pressure was under control. I would say that it is likely you would have a slight, a somewhat lower risk for bad outcome with controlled hypertension as opposed to uncontrolled hypertension, but you would have to ask yourself, much as the diabetic, why you got hypertension in the first place, why did you get type 2 diabetes in the first place, etc. So those lifestyle choices may also have other issues associated with them—coronary heart disease, obesity, etc.—that may still put you at a high risk. And it also takes us to a discussion of some blood pressure drugs that work at an area called the ACE2 receptor. They're well; they work to modulate angiotensin-converting enzyme, and that turns out to be that receptor. for angiotensin-converting enzyme, or ACE2, is where coronavirus binds. So that observation has led to a lot of interest into the idea of using that specific class of blood pressure medicines perhaps as a way of treating COVID-19 patients or even used as a preventative approach. It has not been necessarily validated. Okay, so let me take a couple more questions. Anything else that I am going to— I'm— I want to— I want you all to know, totally impressed by the response to the, uh, ramble-on quiz today. Let me know if that's something I should be doing more of because it's— I, I think we should have a little fun here, you know. Okay, um, a lot of people say they were all, uh, they're testing low in vitamin D. W. David Berglund says, stay off artificial sugars. That gets bonus points for that comment. Why? Because as we say stop sugar, which I will say till I'm proven— until we prove otherwise, there is the sense that, well, I can take aspartame or other artificial sweeteners. Bad idea. Aspartame has been associated with A dramatic increased risk for type 2 diabetes. So, uh, the mechanism there might well be that aspartame induces significant changes in the gut bacteria. So no on the yellow packet and the pink packet and all the packets. Time to throw the packets away, in my opinion. You don't want to threaten your gut bacteria. That is a very powerful player. The microbiome in terms of your immune competence. So just start getting away from wanting the sense of sweet. So with that, I hear a lot of comments about cholesterol. Really, I guess I struck a note on the vitamin D. Yowzer! And good to see you can buy. lights on Amazon, natural lights that you can expose yourself to at home, and that way you might be able to take off more clothing, expose more, more skin. L-lysine, yay or nay? Thank you. So lysine that many people think they should take does have some antiviral activity, but it only seems to be demonstrated in DNA viruses and specifically herpes virus. We know that the herpes virus requires binding of an amino acid called arginine in order to replicate. Arginine and lysine compete for the binding site. Higher levels of lysine will not allow the virus to bind arginine; therefore, it doesn't may not replicate as readily. So that's why L lysine. Is something that people are talking about as it relates to herpes virus, which is a powerfully different kettle of fish. Herpes virus being a DNA virus, being larger, all the mechanisms involved in its replication, how it binds to the cell surface, et cetera, are different. So interesting comment, but I would not expect that L-lysine would necessarily be effective here. I know an Elaine Barlow. Elaine Barlow asks about zinc, and we've talked about zinc quite a bit. I take zinc on a daily basis, and I would say that there is plenty of reason to unders— to think about zinc being a gatekeeper as it relates to immune function, having roles to play in both the innate and the adaptive immune system. So I am still signed on to zinc, though we learned the other day in my interview with Dr. Sharon Hausman Cohen that doing the analysis of my DNA revealed that I might need to take— might not need to take as much zinc because of how my body is able to utilize zinc. Don't promote fear. I agree with that. There is medical treatment This is a bad cold only. Well, Wendy, I would say that I'm doing my very best not to promote fear. My hope is that this information that I'm providing is empowering to help people not contract this virus, and if they do, hopefully to have a better outcome. It— I can't imagine it's fair to call this a cold. If that were the— you know, it just doesn't seem fair to me, Wendy, to think that that statement is meaningful. The world has basically shut down over a cold. Kind of hard for me to imagine that that's true. We'll leave it at that. Okay, more fun. More fun quizzes. All right, I'll have to think of one, but I'll get it ready for next time. All right, last question. Then I've got some work to do today. How about stevia? Maybe that won't be the last question. I don't think that stevia is necessarily a threat. If you must use a sweetener, I think stevia, organic stevia, would probably be reasonable. The only changes in the microbiome that I've been able to see with stevia, at least in the medical literature, have been changes in the mouth. Microbiome, which I did not think were necessarily aggressive. No artificial sweeteners, Connie Moore. That's what I'm recommending. Yes, ma'am. How about sweetening with local honey? Again, honey, whether it comes from bees that meditate twice a day, it doesn't matter. It's sugar and happens to be pretty high in fructose, by the way. Fructose. Is an entree to getting non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, which we talked about in an earlier podcast, being one of the factors that predicts for bad outcome. Maple syrup, organic maple syrup, it's still sugar. Cane sugar, still sugar. Palm, no matter where it comes from, sugar is sugar. It's something our bodies— getting back to this Western diet article that I posted earlier today, We never had sugar. You know, we— maybe our ancestors would find a beehive and eat that honey as it, you know, something they would find once a year. But we weren't cultivating sugarcane in the day, but, you know, while our genome was being refined. Good luck with the garden. Thank you. Need a little luck. Got a little bit yellowing going on. Do you take Andrographis? I've just started taking Andrographis, as a matter of fact. Based upon my time I spent the other day. Watch the video, it's— scroll down on Facebook, you'll see it. It's the Empowering Neurologist interview I did with Dr. Sharon Hausman Cohen. What kind of zinc do I take? It's picolinate. And sambucus as well I'm taking. And great, I appreciate the supportive comments and Thank you, Melanie Madden. I'm doing my very best not to promote fear. Why? Fear makes stress. Stress increases cortisol. That's damaging to your immune system. The last thing I would ever want to do for you folks would be to either give you bad advice or threatening advice that would damage your immunity because, you know, that's what we're needing here. I've said before, the best offense is a good defense. Right now we don't have an offense, so we need our defense. We need our immune system. So love you all. It makes my day. This is my mission in life right now. It's what I'm doing and learning as much as I can and then presenting that information to you. And I hope to chat with you tomorrow. And until then, thank you all so much for joining me, and thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing this information. I see that it gets shared Our post, we reached 225,000 people on the post from the day before yesterday. That's that seems like a lot of people are interested in learning this stuff. So okay, talk to everybody soon. Bye for now.