Garrett Williamson Interview | music, Melee, composing Metagame doc's soundtrack, and nostalgia

Garrett, dude, hello! Thanks so much for being here.

How you doing? Absolutely. I was honestly excited about this, you know. Any, anytime I get an opportunity just to, you know, talk about like Smash Bros or metagame or anything, it's, it's a ton of fun. And, and I've also— I don't know if I've ever told you this before, I've seen it numerous times at this point— I love your starting screen, dude. So, um, yeah, I'm excited to be here, man.

Cool. Yeah, and I just thought, man, um, you've done so much cool stuff and you've done so many cool flips. You've made— you've done like YouTube stuff in the past and you worked on Metagame. You've done a bunch of little things. So I thought it'd be fun to kind of like look back at the last like, I don't know, 5 to 7 years of stuff that you've done and just figure out like what the heck, like what the heck your journey's been like and how people can get connected with you.

Yeah, no, it's, it's been crazy. It's, it's, it's so weird realizing that like, like YoungTown and I did Settle and Smash like, what is it, like 6, over 6 years ago now? It was like late 2014. Utterly crazy just like looking back at that. Like, what was the other one? Breath of the Wild song that—

yeah, I did 4 years ago.

Like, yeah, Open Your Eyes. I was like, oh my gosh, that's already been 4 years. So that's— yeah, it's insane. So, um, yeah, it is. It's really crazy. There's not really another way to put it.

Agreed. Uh, by the way, your video is a little choppy. I don't know if there's a way to fix that or not, but if not, it's not a big deal.

That is a good— let's see, I wonder if that's, uh— I, I hope that's not like a, um, a downfall of the, uh, basic version of Discord it may be. I don't use, you know, one of the higher versions of Discord.

Gotcha. Yeah, it shouldn't be, but it's not a big deal. It's not the worst thing in the world, but— Oh, your volume's a tad quiet.

Why would it be so choppy?

All right, I'm trying to—

Okay, I can turn myself up a little bit if you need, but—

How's it sounding now, guys?

I shall test. Test. Hello.

Literally, you cannot get away from a stream without it being like a tech support stream at some point.

Oh yeah, no, always, every time, every time.

Yeah, by the way, that's what the chat's there for though, right? Exactly. And speaking of that, you guys, you guys should totally follow, um, Garrett. He's GWilly on Twitch, and obviously just use the guest command and you can grab that URL whenever you need to. Um, okay, cool. So yeah, so you mentioned Youngtown and your collab for Settle It in Smash. You said, what was that, 7 years ago, something like that?

Yeah, it'll— yeah, at the end of this year it'll be 7. It's been about 6 years ago, which is It's still crazy to think about that it was that long ago. Yeah. Yeah.

So would you say— and you thought about that, but that wasn't your initial, like, that wasn't your initial mark on like flips and Smash and music though, right? You did— you start a bit before that, or was that kind of like where you consider your start to be?

Yeah, I would say, I would say probably the first—

I—

so I've been doing music for— I've been probably I've been into music and I've been writing music for, I mean, as long as I can honestly remember. Like, I've probably been writing stuff since I was 4 or 5 years old. Um, but, uh, I really got into the video game community, um, because I started getting really into like video game music. I would say it's mainly because of Sonic. Sonic was the moment that it was like, wait, you can like make rock and pop music and put it in a video game? I was like, I was like, that's what I want to do. That's what I want to do with my life. I was like, that's sick. So I started really getting into that and I got an Overclock Remix. I'm sure there's plenty of, plenty of people in my field that might even say something similar. And that was where I first ended up. And probably the first real project that I was on with Overclock Remix was their Sonic CD Remix project, which was in 2013. Um, we worked on that throughout like, I'd say, 2012, but it released in 2013. Um, and that, that was probably the, the first video game related thing that I, I really kind of, I guess, made my first strides, if you will, on, on, on the web with, with, with video game stuff. Um, I, I had my, uh, Edge of the Universe album that I released publicly the year beforehand, but in terms of the exclusively video game stuff, it was probably that Sonic CD thing.

Cool. Okay.

Um, and so Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of just been, you know, something to like just numerous steps from there. But I would say that was probably the first thing. So somewhere around 2012, 2013. And then I met Youngtown in probably late 2013, early 2014, somewhere around there. And I was like, dude, your work is incredible. And he was like, dude, I love your work. And we were like, we should do something. And he was like, yeah. Um, and so actually the first thing— not many people know about this— but the first thing that we did together was, um, uh, he did a song at the end of some review, uh, or video retrospective on Fallout: New Vegas. And, uh, we did this song at the end. He, he pretty much wrote the whole song. He even wrote the hook and everything. He's a brilliant hook writer. People know him as a rapper, but He writes absolutely brilliant melodies. Um, and, um, he wrote the hook for what, what he called Cold Turkey was the name of the song. And so I sung on that. That was our first project. And then he came to me a couple months later and he was like, hey, you want to do an anthem for Smash 4's release? I was like, absolutely.

So cool.

Smash happens.

Okay, that's how— so, and then that kind of goes full circle, and we can leave that as a cliffhanger for why that would come full circle when it comes to Settlin and Smash in particular. Um, because maybe not everyone's familiar with that. But, um, so before we continue more into like what you did after that, um, first of all, would you— how would you describe your musical style as like an artist? And then also, has it evolved at all since you started?

Oh, it's definitely evolved. Um, it, it— I, I think my sound, it's tough to really nail down exactly what my sound is. I would definitely say it's more melodic It's probably, you know, I do for sure strive in the hype realm, if you will, in upbeat kind of music. You know, there's a lot of points in which I love to write more chill, laid-back stuff or even more emotive pieces. But I know that a lot of people probably know me largely for the really upbeat kind of stuff. Um, it's so tough. I, I think some of my biggest influences, which have probably played a big part in my sound, have been R&B and jazz, uh, and rock music. Um, I'd say those three are probably like the big three.

Yeah.

Um, I think those probably have affected my sound more than anything else, you know. And again, that plays into the, the Sonic thing, you know. I know a lot of people will even hear Even when I don't mean to, there's a lot of points where people will hear things and they're like, man, this sounds a little bit like something like from Sonic. And I think it's kind of those, all those mixed influences. But yeah, and I do know that a lot of people probably affiliate, maybe not entirely, but I do know that I also do have, I suppose, a, what's the word, a presence in the retro sounding realm. Of music. Um, and so I know people probably affiliate '80s, '90s kind of sound a lot with me as well.

Yeah. So if I, if I had to think of a phrase, and maybe this is out of— this is not accurate, but the phrase that came to mind when I was thinking about your music was it's just funky as frig. It's just super funky. Yeah, I love it. And, um, I would say your music include your original stuff including your, your flips and your remix and stuff too have single-handedly given me an appreciation for the bass and just what you can do with it. I just love it.

Oh, like the bass? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad to hear that because I feel like not enough people— it's like, it's one of two things. It's either you've got, you've got people with nothing but absolute giant subs in their cars where you can't even hear the rest of the song, it's just giant sub. And then there's other people that are perfectly fine to you know, listen on the tiniest speakers, and I'm like, I gotta feel the bass, man. I got— I gotta hear that. I gotta hear the bass. So I'm glad I could at least to some extent bring— potentially bring more appreciation for such a beautiful instrument.

So, oh, you really have, um, at least for me. And so, okay, so glad. So, okay, so you mentioned you got into the, like, the game scene through Sonic mainly. So how did that How did you start? I assume you started with like Sega Genesis or something and then you went on to— or what started?

I mean, I am, you know, I'm probably more Gen Z at the end of the day. You know, I grew up with Sonic Adventure, so I was Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic really, you know, I remember as Sonic Adventure DX when that came out on the GameCube. Um, and I actually— my friend got me, um, Sonic Adventure 2 a few years later. So I was, I was actually a few years late to all that.

When I said Genesis, I totally meant— yeah, I totally meant, um, uh, Dreamcast, not Genesis. So I wasn't like that, trying to be that off.

There you go, there you go, there you go. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, probably more, more so Dreamcast. I mean, and, and in, in ever since like Genesis stuff has totally become, uh, like it totally became— because I think what happened was I got super into— I got gifted Sonic Adventure 2, and I remember for a long time I was like, I was so against Sonic for whatever reason. I just wanted to play Mario. And I finally put it in one day and I started playing it, and suddenly I fell in love with the game. And, uh, and that got me really into Sonic overall. And I started just looking up everything, you know, I started really getting into video game music, etc., etc. Um, and, uh, and I, I remember the first, the first thing that I found in terms of like remix projects and like other people that are really into this kind of thing, like, you know, giving their love back to the community with, with music and whatnot, was, um, Project Chaos, which was a Sonic 3 Knuckles remix project. I know what that is.

I remember that.

Yeah, yeah. And that was like the first thing that I remember. I probably found that like '08 or '09, so it was a couple years after it came out. And I was so into that. Like, it— like, not necessarily even because like I absolutely like— like the music was mind-blowing or anything, um, but really just because I was so inspired by the fact that people were so passionate about something like that. I thought that was just fantastic. And so that, that, that I think helped boost my interest in, in getting into that kind of stuff. So gotcha.

So was GameCube similarly the catalyst for Smash also? Where you— did you start on Melee, or was that— yeah, okay.

Yeah, cool. Definitely Melee. Yeah, no, I, I played Melee first, uh, if I can remember correctly. You know, I mean, a lot of that, a lot of that stuff is kind of a blur at the very, you know, my younger ages, but Um, I'm pretty sure it was that one first. My grandmother— well, it was really my Aunt Kiki, it's what I call her. Uh, she, she's the youngest of my aunts, and so she was almost more like a big sister to me, and she bought the 64 brand new. Um, and so I played a lot of the 64 games when, uh, at, at my grandmother's house because they kept the 64 over there. And that's— that was my experience with Smash 64. Um, I don't remember which one came first though, but I'm pretty sure I played Melee first.

Okay.

So, and I got so into that game. I obviously, you know, I, I don't think I'd be here right now.

Yeah.

If I hadn't gotten so into that game. So, well, all I gotta say is good taste in games.

Seriously, all I gotta say.

Yeah, well, right back at you. Great minds think alike.

Great minds think alike. And then, so yeah, so then, so you got into Melee and then probably just by proxy Smash, because once you're 'Cause I got invested right in Smash 64, like right when that came out growing up. And then once you're into Smash, and then I remember seeing Smash Melee, like the— it coming out. I still remember the game coming out and just thinking how excited I was for it. And I'm like, this is like— imagine the perfect sequel to a game. Melee is the definition of a perfect sequel in every single conceivable way.

Yeah, seriously.

Yeah.

Seriously.

For sure.

So that was— Yeah, it totally improved on everything that 64 did. It was like 64 already established it so well, and then Melee just took it to another level. Totally.

I totally agree. That's awesome. So, okay, so to recap, you kind of got into game stuff around when you were getting into music too. You wrote a lot of music pretty early on when you were fairly young and then also started to get into games and stuff. And then you kind of saw how they blended and you said, hey, I want to do— I like this blend. I want to continue with this blend as far as I can go. For sure.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I thought it was just fantastic because I was already so into music and then just realizing, wait, there's people getting paid to do this kind of thing for games and, and the like. I was like, that's awesome. I want to do that. So yes. Yep.

Cool.

Yeah.

All right. So then, so that's how you started working with Youngtown and then So we're after that, because I remember when Cellbit in Smash came out and I watched the video on YouTube. I favorited the SoundCloud instrumental remix on your SoundCloud and started following you at that point.

Oh, well, thank you.

Yep.

Thank you. I'm glad you liked it.

It's weird that you recalling that brought me back to that same period in time that I remember what I was doing as just like an appreciator, a consumer of the content. That was funny.

Yeah, totally different time. Yeah, totally, totally different time for me. Yeah, because I mean, I was, I was still in high school when I did that song. Um, I was a senior. Yeah, I was, I was— yep, I would have been a senior. So it's just a totally different— like, just thinking back, it's like part of it just feels like yesterday, and the other part of it is like, wow, like that was, that was another life ago. So, agree.

So a few things in chat I want to mention too. Shy Guy says Smash Bros was hardly even greenlit by Iwata. Yeah, it barely even existed in the first place. It's kind of a miracle that we have it. Uh, we have some anti-Sonic sentiment in the chat, which is a little toxic, but I'll let it slide for now. Um, my friend Fraud is calling out your Pokémon Go remix, and that's one of my personal favorites too, to be honest.

Um, oh yes, man, holy cow, that— yep, that's another call callback that I've, uh, that my granddad— and I don't mean to bring the, the room down here— my granddad passed away in 2017, and that was the last song that he really heard of mine. And I remember him actually, because my granddad was a brilliant orchestrator and arranger, like, I'm massively inspired by him. And, you know, so when I get praise from him, it's like, that's like some of the highest praise. And he told me about it. He was like, "Man, I really like that Pokémon GO rearrangement you did. That was fantastic." And so, you know, like a beatnik, I'm like, "Oh, this is good then." Like, you know, that just perked me up. So—

Wow, that's so cool. I didn't know about that. What a fun backstory for something that's just like a meme remix. That's so cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I definitely have positive outlooks on that song. Thanks, Granddad. So yeah, thank you. I'm glad that people like it so much. I really, I love that. Thank you.

Shout out to Garrett's granddad. And then Admiral Eggroll in chat says, David/Garrett money match when? Just saying.

Oh man, you'd smoke me, dude. You would smoke me. I can't, dude. The last time I could like, like even hold a candle to anybody in Smash and Melee was probably like 5 or 6 years ago. I can't play the game. Game at all anymore. I still love it and I love watching it, but I can't play it for crap.

I mean, all I know is the best Melee players talk down about their own skill and the really bad Melee players say how good they are at the game. So you've basically said nothing to me at this point. That's all I'm gonna say.

Oh yeah, I, I don't know about that. I don't know.

You know what I'm talking about, right? Like every—

I— yeah, I do.

Yeah, every, every like party you go to and there's a GameCube and someone goes like, oh, we have Melee. Oh man, I I'm— I can destroy anybody at this game. And I— and then, and then you kind of finish their sentence for them. You're like, let me guess, you pick Kirby and you down B and you're invincible and you do it over and over, right?

Yeah, yep, yep, that's exactly right. Yeah, it's also like the, like, you know, the, the, the better players tend to, um, you know, they be— they're more perfectionists, right? They're more professionals. So it's like they're gonna be, you know, you are your worst critic. So of course they're gonna be like I'm not that good, you know, etc., etc., because, you know, I could do this better, I could do this better. But even, even then, I don't think I'm very good anymore, you know. It's probably one of those things where I'm able to say that because I, I do know that at one point I, I could play to some extent, but not anymore.

Um, so on that topic, very good segue, uh, how did you ever get involved in metagame, um, and And it's funny because when I think about like Melee-related— if I were to make a Melee documentary myself, you are absolutely the first person that popped into my brain. Like, why wouldn't I reach out to you? But of course, I don't know how it actually happened. Yeah, thank you.

Uh, yeah, no, that was one of those, um, they didn't come to me, I came to them situations. Um, yeah, it was, uh If I remember correctly, basically what happened was, um, I got into the competitive— I'm a Dot kid, 100%. I got into the competitive scene because I saw that documentary right when it released. Like, it was, it was making its rounds across the internet, people were freaking out about it. I was like, okay, listen, it's on YouTube, it's free, it's about one of my favorite games, I may as well watch it. And that's— and then I realized, oh my gosh, there's a whole other level to this game that I didn't even realize. And I got super into that. Well, I, you know, ended up going and following tons of the people that were in the, in the, uh, documentary, you know, Chillin Dude, Hugs, Mango, etc. Followed them on Twitter, on Twitch, all that kind of stuff. And, uh, I want to say it was— I, I think Travis, the director, uh, he goes by Samox, which you guys may know that name better, um, He— I believe he was in an interview/commentary. I think it was more of like a commentary with ChillinDude over the documentary. And Chillin was just talking about like— this was probably about a year and a half, year, year and a half later. And Chillin was just like, "Man, I love the music here." And he kept pointing it out. He's like, "Man, this is great music selection." He's like constantly saying all that kind of stuff. And every time he would always ask Travis, he's like, like, who did this? Did somebody write this for you? And he's like, man, I wish somebody had. He's like, I wish I had an original composer for this, um, because he's like, I have to like get all this stuff licensed out. And I had recently figured out he was working on a new project, and I was like, oh, that's my in. So I emailed him. I found his email. I, I think I went to his website, found his email, and I emailed him. And I was just like, hey man, I just want you to know, absolutely love the original documentary. Great work. I'm seriously a fan. I'm super into like this whole Melee scene now thanks to it, etc., etc., etc. And, uh, and I gave him a whole bunch of my music and I was like, here's a ton of stuff I've done. I've heard that like you're looking into— you, you'd like to have like an original composer, da da da da da. Um, and I was just like, hit me back if, if you like what you hear, you know, if you're interested in working. He gets back to me within like a week later or something. He's like, dude, I'm a huge fan of this stuff. I think it's fantastic. I would love to have you on the project, and that was the beginning of it. So I, I got on the project pretty early in its production, um, so like back in 2015. So it's been a long time coming.

Wow, way to jump on that, man. Like, if I think— when you think about making video content with music accompanying it, music is so crucial to making a scene happen. It's almost like you need to hear the right piece of music to know how to make the scene right in some cases. So the fact that you came in so early was so critical. I'm glad you did that, took initiative.

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's so many, there's so many times where I, I think a lot of, of times with the, with games and film, uh, especially with film still now— games I think have kind of changed a little bit— but regardless, there's a lot of points in which they, they take, they've got the, the product like 80% done before they take it to the to the composer. And it was a lot. I always like to be on the project earlier than that so I can really be involved with and really, you know, have that synergy with everybody else involved. It's just, I prefer that over, hey, you know, this is the game, this is what we've been working on for the past 5 years. We've all been really into this, but you haven't, but we would like you to do the music for it. Mm-hmm. You know, and both cases still work out, you know, and I've had an absolute blast working on products that are more in that latter situation. But yeah, it was very nice to actually be on the project that early. Yeah, because I do think the music probably benefited from it. Cool. And the pro— just the whole editing and all that, because we went back and forth a lot. You know, it was— it wasn't like he edited entirely to me doing the music. I composed a lot of it according to how he edited, and then maybe he would adjust edits, etc., etc. So yeah.

Wow, that's super cool. So like, but the thing is, you weren't— in the last 5, 6 years, I guess 2015 is almost 6 years ago now, is literally 6 years ago now. But, um, yeah, crazy. Yeah. So, but that's not only the only thing you were working on because you You had to keep all that under wraps. You're working on— and by the way, when I saw the list, you actually released the OST for Metagame on your SoundCloud, I believe. And the number of tracks is staggering. There's a lot of tracks that you made.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I also have to give major props to the other composers involved, you know, Mello, Lord Dinosaur, and Jesse. Because— I mean, they bring their own really great unique sound to the project that I think was really important for those segments. And also, you know, it's already a large project with plenty of hours of content. And so yeah, they also ease the load, I suppose. Good. But yeah, no, 30— I think there's 38 tracks on that soundtrack. And that's still actually like a selection, you know. There were certain, like, say, small, very, I suppose, insignificant ambient pads or pieces where it's like, I don't think people are, you know, this is gonna work as a standalone thing. So, uh, yeah, but I have to give huge shoutouts to them.

Cool. All right, good to know there are other important, like, artists and composers on that too. I didn't know that personally, so I'm glad that you're able to share that.

Um, yeah, absolutely.

So, but so along with all that, and, and it sounds like you had some help, which is great, but you were also working on your own work too because you, you recently— I, I say recently, is it last November or December? You, you released Middle of Somewhere, right?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, that, and that album was pretty much in the making as about as long as Metagame. I pretty much started that project around the same time that I got on Metagame. So yeah, two projects that happened to start and end roughly around the same time, which is really actually interesting. It's, it's kind of a unique situation.

Yeah, seriously, you did both somehow. That's insane.

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, and I mean, uh, since it's like a— both were 5 years in the making, especially with Metagame. Um, You know, there were a lot of, I suppose you could say, droughts, drought seasons there. You know, there wasn't a lot that I was required or needed to do on metagame, you know. So it wasn't like some, you know, oh, he's a madman juggling these two projects. But yeah, no, it A lot of the sound of Metagame, uh, people have already asked me this, they're like, man, I've gotten some vibes of, um, Beat Demon, which was the album I released beforehand.

Yeah.

Um, and it's, it's largely because a lot of the sound of that is songs that I composed for it earlier on, you know, between 2015 and 2016, maybe 2017. Um, that probably, you know, there was some of that sound from Beat Demon still kind of bleeding in, uh, whereas Middle of Somewhere was a different situation where I was really trying to find the sound for it for a long time. And that's part of the reason it took so long to finish, uh, because it took so long to get there. Uh, and then eventually I, uh, I want to say it was when I finally got the idea for Get Along, which is one of the main singles off the record, um, that was the track where I was like, that's it, I've got the sound. Like, this is, this is like, I think, the direction I want to go. Uh, and that was like late 2017. So Middle of Somewhere, as most people know it now, really started in late 2017. Um, but regardless, I had to figure out a way to get there.

So yeah, it's a great album. I love it. It's really, really good.

Well, thank you. Thank you. I'm glad you like it so much. Yeah, it's— it is definitely a labor of love. I, I put my blood, sweat, and tears into that guy.

That's evident.

That was a lot.

Um, so we have some questions in the chat from— first one is from Musical Josh. When working on the OST, how often did you run into writer's block? Also, were there any songs that drastically— I am assuming— changed during the writing process?

That's a good question. Um, writer's block is definitely something I come across a lot. Um, with Metagame, I'm trying to remember specifically. I, I don't know if there were— there were definitely a couple situations I do recall There was one, uh, scene where I tried to compose a certain something, and, uh, it, you know, I, I appreciate Travis's honesty, um, because it was definitely something I tried to do something, and the reality was it was like, you know what, this isn't working. What it was, it was, we're overthinking this. Why don't we just, you know, use the track from, uh, I think it was Lord Dinosaur instead. It, you know, he, he's he's doing a— he's got a better song for this. Um, and so we, um, we stuck with that. But that was definitely a situation where I think I remember even being frustrated at my keyboard, like, how do I make this work? And then sending it over, like, even myself feeling like this isn't quite right. And I'm glad that Travis picked up on that because, yeah, that, that, that— yeah, that— so that would probably be an example of of some writer's block, um, that happened, uh, during Metagame. Um, but for the most part, it was, um, it actually wasn't too tough from what I recall. Um, so yeah, and I'm so sorry, what was the second question one more time?

Yeah, were there songs that changed drastically during the writing process?

Right, yeah. Um, I actually don't know, uh, if, if there were, uh, with metagame. I think for the most part, you know, like I said, like there was a lot of stuff that I had composed back in like 2016. I may have revisited the mix on it. I'd say, okay, there's, there's one, uh, and it's the main theme. Uh, that's the only one that I would say had drastic change. Um, we pretty much— I, I kept revisiting that almost till the 11th hour. Um, that, that one I, I kept tweaking, uh, and messing with. It sounded very different at the beginning, and I'm, I'm— that's another one that I'm so glad I changed.

Really? So, um, to make sure we're talking about the same one for full circle's sake, the Settle It and Smash, like, you could consider it like the revamp of that song or whatever, right, that you're talking about?

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Did you see, um, did you see everybody in Twitch chat when that was going on going doo doo doo doo doo doo doo in chat?

No, I didn't, but that's fantastic.

Oh my word. Yeah, Essie and I were cracking up because everyone during like— because obviously by like the 5th or 6th episode, whatever, everyone was familiar with the song, so everyone was just spamming doo doo doo doo doo for the beginning and you knew what they were doing.

It was so funny. That's so great. That's awesome. No, I didn't, I didn't see that. I don't— I didn't see that, but that's great. It was good. Um, yeah, no, that one drastically changed.

Okay, good to know. For sure. Good to know. I think the end product is, ah, it's got that like Garrett funk and like the, the hype.

Yeah, I don't know any of the technical terms, but yeah, no, that one, that one definitely has got my, my name written all over it. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure when I, I said, hey guys, I, I did the— I did some music for Metagame that, you know, they're looking out for it and they hear that and You know, uh, which I've, I've been so happy to hear, like, people like, I, I heard this, I heard da da da da, and immediately knew it was you. Like, that makes me happy to know, like, I've been able to establish, like, a sound, if you will.

Yeah. Um, despite your inability to articulate it, people know what it is.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yep.

Um, so yeah, really important question from Kimball Donald. "Who's your favorite Twitch chatter and why is it Kimble Donald?" That's a great question, Kimble Donald.

I really think it's Kimble Donald. He's just such a sweet guy. I can't really— I can't tell you why, but every time he's in my chat, I just— there's a giant grin that goes across my face. I love that guy so much. Props to Donald.

And also Alexa's— I almost said Alexa's fiancé. Donnie's fiancée Alexa is also here. Hello. Um, hello Diego. Okay, Dio is saying Ludwig says he also liked the, the metagame intro, so that's pretty cool.

Oh, sick.

Yeah, that—

yeah, I, I like hearing that. That's cool.

I'm sure you do. Uh, yeah, Fraud says lowkey was kind of sad that the intro wasn't longer.

Yeah, yeah, I, I always— I was always a little bit worried, and I'm sure some people still complain about it now, um, about releasing like the soundtrack, because I just— I, I had the fear. I was like, I'm gonna release it and people are gonna be like, oh, finally the full version of the metagame theme. Well, the thing is, I composed it exactly for that timing, so that is the full song. Um, and, and so, you know, may I extend it one day?

Possibly.

I don't know. Um, that would definitely take some time to do. Um, but I suppose it's not out of the question.

A few more things that only real Garrett Williamson fans would know. Not that I would call myself a fan, that's really cringe. Come on, that's ridiculous. But I noticed the In Evolution instrumental, It Present, in the soundtrack, as well as the original Settle It in Smash instrumental also in the actual documentary. And I called both of them out to the audience who didn't know what I was saying, but that's okay.

Well, maybe they do now. Maybe that turned them on to the to that music.

Hopefully, yeah.

I would hope so.

Settle It in Smash will forever sound like it belongs in Melee, says Shy. Shy also says, completely off topic, I like David's background. Thank you very much. I put a lot of time and care into this overlay because I like Melee a lot. Question for Gart.

Great overlay.

Thank you, thank you. From Maybe Ways, do you think about including or trying to include the original lyric version of Settle It in Smash?

Um, including the original lyric version in the soundtrack?

I'm not sure. I'm assuming either the documentary itself or the soundtrack.

Yeah, Travis specifically wanted the instrumental version for the documentary. Um, you know, I mean, I suppose I probably could I guess it's not out of the question that, you know, when we release it on Spotify and Apple Music eventually, that maybe we re-release the original track as part of the soundtrack, you know, with the lyrics and all that. But yeah, no, it was— the intention was to have the instrumental version for the soundtrack and the documentary. So good to know.

And Diego has kindly reminded us that Kingdom Garshins are what your fans are called. That's right, the Garshins.

Yes, that's— that's—

that's—

this is true.

Very nice. Okay, so moving on a bit on the question. So that's a good overview of your finding your sound, however the heck you do that. And I feel like if it's to the point where people can recognize it, I think you're— you're doing something right. That's pretty awesome. Um, How you got involved in metagame and then how you got involved in Smash in general. And then you touched on a little bit some of your inspirations. Are there any other— are there, I guess, maybe you could say like non-game related inspirations that you have? Like, because you mentioned, I think you mentioned like jazz and rock and like R&B as some of them. Are there like specific bands or like other things you can think of that were inspirational?

Oh yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah, no, I, I think the, the one that probably goes without saying for most people is probably Michael Jackson. Um, but, um, you know, huge fan of, uh, the Beatles as well. Uh, Paul McCartney specifically, I absolutely love his work. Um, huge fan of a lot of '90s stuff. You know, I could probably list off 90% of anything that happened in the '90s and and I'm a fan of it. Um, you know, uh, like in the, uh, in the R&B realm, definitely Janet Jackson, you know, Chaka Khan, um, you know, Toni Braxton, you know, I mean, I could— Mariah Carey, you know, Whitney Houston. I could, I could go on and on and on. I'd say Janet's probably one of the top picks, and Chaka Khan in the R&B realm. Um, In terms of like rock music, um, again, that I could go forever, but Nirvana, uh, Rage Against the Machine, um, Third Eye Blind. I'm, I'm, I, I grew up in the CCM realm. Uh, my dad was, uh, heavily in the CCM business.

CCM?

What's that? Um, uh, Contemporary Christian Music. Sorry.

Gotcha.

Um, Yeah, and so my, my dad, uh, drummed, uh, on a lot of stuff, and he was a producer and whatnot. Whoa. Uh, and, uh, so I'm a— yeah, he drummed on Jesus Freak.

No way.

So I'm— yeah, yeah, I'm a— I'm a— I think there is some bias there, but I, I think probably what I would say is like DC Talk probably made me fall in love with music, and Michael Jackson made me realize why I want to do it for, for my life, you know. Um, so, um, but yeah, no, uh, DC Talk is— regardless of beliefs, I think their music is honestly fantastic. Um, I think anybody, anybody honestly can enjoy their work. Uh, I think they're just really brilliant. Um, so I'm really into the, like, the Jesus Freak record, really into Free at Last. Um, you know, really into hip-hop from that era as well. Uh, you know, Notorious B.I.G., Tupac. Um, yeah, the lot— lots of, lots of, you know, those are like the big two I'd say from the '90s.

Gotcha. But, um, I, I would have never guessed a lot of those. That's actually really cool. I mean, I, I guess if I really like analyze them, I could see similarities and I could see inspirations, but it's funny, those are like so many different so many differences, but now that you mentioned it, oh yeah, it makes sense.

Yeah, there, there is— that's, that's, that's the thing is like there's so many different kinds of music that I like, and I just, I think to some extent I, I probably just combine all those different influences, and, and, uh, that, that's probably why I can't exactly tell you.

Sure.

Uh, you know what my sound is.

Yeah, you gotta invent a term for it. You You gotta think of one. Yeah. It's funny that my dad's also a drummer. He's a very good drummer. And— Oh yeah? I don't know if you ever heard of— you probably maybe you haven't heard of it, but have you ever heard of a drum event called Woodstick?

I don't know. That's a great name.

Yeah.

That's a fantastic name. But I don't know if I have.

So Woodstick was like an event for charity basically where they broke the Guinness Book World Records of drummers playing drums simultaneously. And my dad actually started that event. Yeah, my dad started the event.

Oh, that's sick!

Yeah, we got like celebrity drummers from a bunch of bands to show up, like, we— and it's been going on for over 10 years, and he ran it for probably like 9 of those years or something like that. And he was— he played on a big stage with like Alan White from Yes and Death Cab for Cuties drummer and, and just like a bunch of different people. And, um, he didn't make an appearance, but we actually got a signed drum head from Ringo Starr to give away for charity, for a bunch of different charities.

Oh my gosh, that's fantastic! Yeah. So that is so cool.

So Google Woodstick sometime, and my dad's name is Chris Kimball if you want to see his drum solo. You can, you can judge his talent yourself if you'd like, and I think he's a very, very talented drummer. Um, so anyway, fun little connection there. We both have drummer dads.

I believe you. No, that's fantastic. Uh, slight rabbit trail, but Are— since, since your dad's a drummer, are you familiar with the name Steve Gadd?

That sounds familiar, but I'm not gonna pretend I know what that is.

Okay, okay. Um, yeah, he was a really iconic, uh, studio drummer specifically, uh, in the '70s and '80s. And I mean, he's still active now, but he, he really made his name in, in the '70s and '80s. Anyway, my dad is a massive fan of his. I just— anytime any— but like You know, you always know, like, when you get to know somebody, there's always going to be like their hero or that one thing. Yeah, they're obsessed. For my dad, it's Steve Gad.

Gotcha.

It's two things. It's very funny. We joke with him about it a lot. It's two things. This is such a rabbit trail. Uh, Steve Gad and the Hindenburg. He loves anything on the Hindenburg. It's, it's the funniest thing. It cracks me up.

There you go. I think—

just was curious if you knew that name.

Yeah, now that we're on this rabbit trail though, my— I think my— one of my dad's biggest influences for at least drumming talent is probably Buddy Rich.

And yeah, that, that's a fantastic influence. Buddy Rich is, yeah, from another planet, dude.

Yeah, he is crazy. Um, okay, so we got another question from Fraud in chat. Completely off topic, but when looking through your YouTube channel, Garrett, uh, you had a stint of FNAF videos absolutely exploding with like 30+ million views. What was that about? And you're already rolling your eyes.

Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't want to talk about it. Um, I mean, I, I guess, I guess briefly I will. Yeah, I, assuming you're actually asking innocently and you're not being a piece of work, but part of me thinks you're being a piece of work. Um, yeah, no, there was a, an era of time when I was a dumb high school graduate in which I made videos, um, just overdubbing silly sounds over FNAF, and kids loved it, and millions of views.

No one can be mad at you, man. If you found a way to monetize some goofs, hey, more power to you as far as I'm concerned.

Oh my gosh, yeah, it's, it's the artist in me, man. It's like, I look at that, I'm like, man, I did nothing and made bank, you know? I worked my butt off to make the best music I can, and I'm making like, what, like fraction of what that— it's crazy. So that— I think that's where the frustrations come from.

That's fair, man.

I like— I could— I, I have this obsessiveness with like, I gotta earn it, right? I look at those and I'm like, I didn't earn a thing, dude.

Like, I, I—

that was— yeah, yep, yep. I think that's the best way to put it. So there you go.

Okay, that, that is, that is some good background on that. Um, we have some more chat stuff in here, but I want to make sure we get to the other questions because we're getting like low on time. So, um, no, you're good. Okay. What? Okay, so now I want to talk about— this is where we get to go into more video game nerddom here. We went into some music nerddom, but now it's time to get back into some video game nerddom. So you mentioned that some of your earliest, uh, gaming memories are with the Nintendo GameCube and Nintendo 64, right?

For sure. Yep.

So if you can give me like a top 3 games list— I know this is a hard thing— or maybe just the top 3 that come to mind, maybe not definitive top 3, just top 3 that come to mind. For 64 and GameCube, but what would they be and why?

Uh, Mario Kart: Double Dash, Melee. I'm gonna say Super Mario 64. I— boy, Wave Race 64 is really up there, but I'm gonna say Super Mario 64. Um, I really probably, if we were to put them actually in order, I If there was one game that I had to play for the rest of my life, it would be Double Dash, honestly. Like, I know, I know that might sound crazy, especially to, you know, most Melee people, um, but it would probably be Double Dash, actually. Uh, but if there's, if there's a game I definitely would want to have a first experience again with, it would be 64, or Mario 64.

That's a good way to frame it. I like that, where it's first. I think, um, my, um What is it? Somebody talked about first experiences with games and I, I don't remember the full details, so I'm not gonna go on that rabbit trail. And I'm disappointed I don't remember it, but that's okay. Okay, so top 3, you said Double Dash and Melee for GameCube. I'm missing a third for GameCube, and then you have Mario 64 for N64.

Okay, all right, so you're saying like 3 for each?

Yeah.

Um, okay, so 3 for each.

If we're—

okay, if we're gonna go down that route, uh, Double Dash, Melee, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle.

Mm-hmm.

Um, for 64, uh, Super Mario 64, Wave Race 64, um, probably— ooh, that's tough. I'm thinking between quite a few right now. I don't know which one, which one.

You said ooh and my heart leaped that you were just saying the abbreviation for Ocarina of Time.

Eh, oot, oot. Um, uh, oh man, that's tough because yeah, Ocarina of Time would, would probably be up there. I don't know if that would be the absolute top of the list though. I might, I might give it to Mario Kart 64. I'm not sure. That's so hard.

Mm-hmm.

64 is hard because there's so many games that are like right there. Like GameCube has a bigger library of really solid games. But the great games that 64 has are like, you know, they're all right there with each other. It's so hard to pick.

I agree with that.

Um, yeah, but, um, that is, that is really tough. For now, I bet I'm gonna think of something or, or go back on this later, but for now I'm gonna say Super Mario 64, Wave Race 64, and Mario Kart 64. And I don't know why they had— they felt the need to put 64 at the end of all of their game names. Because it becomes such a mouth sore after a while to talk about them.

Yeah, but then you have creators like Beta64 that are, you know, profiting off of it. So there you go.

Oh man, I mean, hey, it has a ring to it.

It does. I mean, I like it personally. Um, so okay, so that's like— that's a good list. I actually— I'm surprised you're making a lot of people in chat happy, that's for sure. An observation, um, that Frod made is that, um, the worse the Nintendo console sold, the better the games it had. This is—

no, it's true. It's what— well, that's— I'm probably gonna start a war here, but I— my fans know how, how much of a distaste I have for the, uh, or bad taste in my mouth I have for, um, the Wii U. So I don't know if that's totally true personally. I'm not a big fan of, of most of the Wii U's library, but for the GameCube, yes, I absolutely agree. That, that is a banger of a library. Yeah, of games.

So, um, I think the way that I look at it is I feel like the Nintendo 64 had like, in my opinion, the best games, and then the GameCube had the best sequels, and then it never got better from that.

Yes. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. Yeah, no, and there's a lot of people that argue that, like, I— dude, I started like a war over this. I mean, you can start a war over the simplest things, but, um, but I, I— Shane from, uh, Did You Know Gaming, you may have even seen this, I'm not sure. Shane from Did You Know Gaming posted this thing. It was like, you know, the classic, like, one's gotta go, and it's the four, uh, like 3D, well, not, yeah, it's 4 of like the highest rated like 3D Mario games. So it's 64 Sunshine, Galaxy, and Galaxy 2, or no, it was Odyssey. It was those 4. And of those 4, I was like, sorry, Galaxy 1 has gotta go.

[Speaker] Good man.

[Speaker] And people freaked out. And it's one of those things, man, where like Sunshine, it's flawed. There's a lot of bull crap in that game. I don't think I've ever thrown a controller harder than playing that game, but there's something charming about it. Seriously, there's something like Galaxy 1 was an enjoyable experience and then I forgot almost everything that happened. Sunshine, it's like, I don't know, it's just, it's got more charm to it. I want to go back to that game, you know? I way more often do I think in my brain, man, I should really like put in Sunshine again, see what happens. I don't think that with Galaxy. Yeah, so like I have a theory with Galaxy might be technically a better game, but I, I don't care. I'd rather play Sunshine.

I don't think the word you mean is better. I think I think you mean polished. And I think there was a stage, especially during the Wii era, where Nintendo's games started becoming too polished and too, like, they were too tight around the corners and they were too, you know, pristine. Because with the N64, 'cause here's the, you can look at it this way, NES and SNES were pretty like polished, but then when you got to N64, it was the raw world of 3D and they were experimenting and stuff was weird and stuff was creepy and too dark and should have been rated M and it was rated E. All that. And then GameCube was like a little bit more of that. It was weird for no reason. They're like, let's make a game where Mario cleans up pollution and make that a game. And let's, you know, right, a bunch of— and like, let's make Mario Kart, but let's have 2 people on the kart instead. There's a bunch of really weird stuff that didn't necessarily translate into sales but ended up being the most memorable and fun titles. And I think the Switch library is a return to form. It's a return to like what made the game so good. And you're combining that with the high sales. So I think it's great.

Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, I, I think, um, I remember Scott the Woz saying, and I, I actually quoted him on this, um, Scott, Scott said, um, in one of his videos, um, that the NES was kind of like they were figuring out 2D but it hadn't been perfected yet. By the SNES, it was like it had been perfected, like they had nailed down 2D at that point. They jump to 3D, it's like a total— like, like you said, it's a totally new world, you know? It's like the world's crazy, it's weird, it's mysterious, we have no clue what to do with this. Um, and so the games reflect that. The GameCube then was them go— was them going, okay, I figured this out now, like, or at least to some extent, like, okay, now we— now we get the, the formula, the idea how to approach 3D. And I think they really nailed it down. And that's why I think 3D games for, or excuse me, GameCube games have really held up, at least a large portion of them, maybe not all of them, but a lot of them have. Yep. In a lot of ways that, you know, even Nintendo's best from 64 may have not held up as well. But I totally, I think you're right. That's a point I haven't really thought about before. I think the Wii, they got too polished. I think, 'cause I revisited Twilight Princess not too long ago. And I love that game, I really do, but I'm playing it and that's like late game. I mean, it's Wii, like the beginning of the Wii era, so you can see kind of that transition happening. And there's a lot of hand-holding going on in that game. There's a lot of just, here, we're going to help you enjoy this game, um, which I think all goes into that polished thing that I— yeah, I'm just not a fan of, you know. Don't— I, I like the— that kind of mysterious throw you in the game, figure it out, you know.

So, and I mean, there were just so many weird things in 64 games that made no sense and that were just stuck in the game for no reason. And like, I, I miss that aspect of it. And I feel like with Breath of the Wild and Odyssey, that's there again. And that's why it's so fun to explore. And I think that's why— but you still got some of that, that Nintendo polish from the Wii era in there. But I feel like they've finally struck a good balance between not being too Also not being overly reliant on motion controls. That's another thing that makes the Wii library age so poorly. It's like, good thing they figured out gyro because like literally Mario Galaxy would be unplayable if they didn't get gyro to work.

This is probably true. Yeah. Yeah, it's that— that's true. Yeah, no, I think the motion controls was, was a good idea for a certain like category of games. Uh, but the problem is when it's like you know, the Nintendo executives come to you when you're, you know, 85-90% through the way of developing Twilight Princess and they go, "Hey, we need you to be— we need you to put this on the Wii. Can you please figure out a way to make the motion controls work?" And they go, "Screw it, I guess just swing it to make him swing the sword." And like, it's just, you know, it becomes exhausting. It's just, it's not— that's— yeah, it's a gimmick that hasn't totally aged well for stuff like that where it's like The game was not built for you to do this, like, the whole time.

Um, so, yeah. On that point, I think it's funny that my favorite part of the motion controls in Twilight Princess, and actually a lot of Wii games, is pointer for shooting arrows, and like Metroid Prime 3, pointer for shooting. That is brilliant.

Oh yeah.

I really like that. They made that toggleable, so you could actually change it to use a stick to aim instead. But they didn't make the sword motion controls toggleable, and I think that has something to do with the fact that there were not enough buttons on the freaking GameCube or Wii and Nunchuk. But I think it's funny that like the best part of it was toggleable. They went out of their way to make that a toggle, but they didn't make the more annoying part toggleable, which is so funny to me.

Yeah. And it really makes me— well, I feel like we— I don't know like how into like shooter games you are. I'm not good at them. You know, some of them I get into, but like it's— It's here and there for me. But I will say like the ultimate way to play right now is definitely mouse and keyboard. Like that's the most accurate way to play. It's not the joystick. The problem is we could be getting better because actually that's an area where motion controls actually would strive. Like if you could nail down motion controls for, you know, shooter games, I think that would be massive. 'Cause we've already seen kind of what it does with like Splatoon.

[Speaker] Oh yeah.

And it took me a moment to figure it out. Like, I remember the first time I played that, I was like, oh gosh, I do not want to use the motion controls in this. But once I figured it out, I was like, oh my gosh, this like, this changes everything. I was like, why are not more games doing this?

[Speaker] Yep.

[Speaker] So.

[Speaker] Because, yeah, exactly. Like, I think Splatoon executes motion controls almost perfectly because it lets you use control sticks primarily or it lets you use gyro primarily. And then you end up using both because you make minute changes like you would a mouse and keyboard with the gyro, but then you make the big, the big movements with them. And that's really the best of both worlds. By the way, pause on this whole thing. If anybody listening is enjoying this conversation and you need a cathartic moment from all the Gen Z takes on Twitter, just enter Garrett Williams in his chat and just ask him about his opinions. You will feel better. I promise. He doesn't know this, but Garrett doesn't know this, but he's actually been my counselor for the past 5 months trying to deal with the fact that my opinions aren't being reflected as the majority anymore on Twitter. And I just, I go there when I need, I need comfort, you know?

Oh, that's so funny. That's so— well, I'm glad, I'm glad. There you go, guys. There's, there's my selling point. If you're sick of Gen Z opinions, come to my chat. It's so funny though, because I think I am like technically— we have this, I have this conversation in my chat I think almost every single day.

Yeah.

Um, but like, I think I am— I technically fall under Gen Z Um, but like, like my age and when I was born and whatnot. But like, it is— it's that weird line where I think I'm like on the line. You are like millennial and Gen Z. So I've got like mixed opinions where I— there's definitely a lot of things where, you know, the, the kids are all over Fortnite and I'm like, what? Like the last time I played that game was like probably 2 years ago now. So anyway, yeah, yeah.

So a little plug there. Um, so okay, so Frod's saying motion controls were executed well but only on games that did not require precision. For example, LEGO Star Wars. Proof Nintendo's returned back to form: they brought back Mario Golf, the best N64 game.

Dude, that, that was literally the, like, the highlight. You guys, yeah, again, yeah, anybody that, that is here that does follow me knows exactly what I'm about to say, but that Direct was a little bit underwhelming, to say the least. But Mario Golf, yeah, that was like the bit I was like, oh my gosh, we haven't seen like a mainline— like somebody said there was a 3DS game. I was like, okay, cool. I didn't, I didn't touch the 3DS a lot. I mean, I did, but not a lot. So like, really though, what I'm thinking is like, oh my gosh, this is like the first Mario Golf game we've gotten since Toadstool Tour, I think. Which would have been 18 years ago. That's crazy.

Yeah, jinx. So, um, Alpha Storm and Maybe, thank you so much for the follows, by the way. I wanted to call that out. Quite the conversation to join too. I actually feel quite the same in that sense. Well, Alpha, hey, we're gonna build a little alliance where we can feel— see, here's the thing, we like to talk about how much we shouldn't create bubbles in our own echo chambers, but that sounds real good right now in the context of this conversation.

I don't know about you guys.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Okay, so on the next thing I want to talk about is, um, just kind of along the lines of everything we've been saying, um, your list had— your list of the top games for 64 and GameCube ultimately reflect a lot of the games that you played growing up. And so my question to you is, to what degree in conversations about what games are the best, what, what music is the best, all that What should we— to what degree should we factor in nostalgia and personal bias and dismiss in proportion to that? Like, does that ruin the merit of the argument, or can we even separate the two?

No, I, I don't think it does personally. I, I think because there have been so many games, I think a lot of people go, oh, you're just, you're just blinded by nostalgia. Listen, I've gone back and played So many games that I played as a kid that are trash now. I cannot enjoy them. They're not fun. You know, Spider-Man 2 on the PC, that game rocked as a kid. That game sucks now. Seriously, like, it just, it's not fun. Like, there's so many— what was another game I just looked up the other day and watched a video? It was like, uh, SpongeBob SquarePants, uh, Operation Krabby Patty. That was a PC game from like '01. I, I'm remembering it in my head as like, oh my gosh, I remember all this stuff you did. You had to collect this stuff. It looks so fun. I go back and watch the gameplay of it, I'm like, this stinks! This sucks so much! Like, nothing about this is good. So like, I think it's a little bit of a bad argument to just say that, oh, you can't say it's good just because you're blinded by nostalgia. You know, if that was the case, then if like Double Dash If Double Dash fell under the same criteria as, as the Spider-Man 2 game, then no, I would not be playing Double Dash, and I wouldn't be sitting here saying if there's one game I would play for the rest of my life, it'd be Double Dash. No, I'd say the game sucks. Yeah, it was fun when I was a kid, it's not now. So, um, yeah, I, I think— I do think you have to separate a little bit because I do think there are certain things that, like, because you grow up as a, you know, that you, you practically raise yourself on certain kinds of ideals in a video game. Um, like, I, I would, I would definitely say there is a point in which you, you do need to separate from your nostalgia or just accept that, listen, like, that's my, that's my personal preference because that's the kind of games that I grew up playing that I love so much, right? Um, you know, but, uh, yeah, by, by the same token, I, I do think it is a little bit of I think it is a little silly to say no, you can't, because just nostalgia.

Because yeah, I agree with the spirit of that, but part of me, my cynical side— okay, so let's take a situation. I keep using Twitter. I don't mean to dog on Twitter so much. I actually like Twitter. I think it's overhated.

No, it's okay.

I, I wanna, I wanna state that I actually like Twitter.

Good, I'm glad, I'm glad that you're more positive about it.

I am, I'm more positive about it. But, um, let's take a, let's take a conceptual thread where somebody says something like, you know, most— they say like most iconic Pokémon generation. And then you have a flood of tweet responses that are like, "Gen 4! Gen 4!" And you're thinking, I don't want to guess the age of these people, but I have an age in my brain and that's very unfair maybe, but I'm probably not wrong. And then you see people say, "Oh, Gen 2, Gen 3." And you're like, I don't like how predictable this is. I wanna be able to see like, somebody said Gen—

That's fair.

You know, somebody said Gen 1 and they were born like 10 years ago. They're 10 years old and they like Gen 1 more than the newest Pokémon game. Like that would be awesome. Or like somebody likes Gen 3, Ruby and Sapphire, and their first game ever was White and Black and White or something.

Yeah.

Like, I wanna see those upsets where it's like somebody was born in 2000 and they love the 64 games or, You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I think I've probably built something of an audience like that because I know somebody like, yeah, I'm 15. And I'm like, what the frick, you're 15 and you're like rocking Super Mario 64? Like, dude, give this kid a raise. Um, but no, I, I, I, I know, I, I— you make a good point because I remember even when I mentioned, uh, when I, when I said like how Shane posted that whole one Mario game's gotta go, I said Uh, sorry, Galaxy's gotta go. People were freaking out like, what? No, dude, Sunshine's worse. Pretty quickly I could pick up on the age of these people. Yeah, it was like my gen. It was like, it was like people around my generation, like born somewhere between like, I'm gonna say '95 and '98, '99. Those people all are gonna be like, oh yeah, Sunshine, I prefer Sunshine over, over Galaxy. But then like anybody that's like, you know, 15 to 18 years old or something, and they're all over Galaxy. So I do think, yeah, no, I think people definitely, their preferences on games is very largely based on whatever their first really great experiences with games were or just, you know, whatever their favorite experiences were as a kid. And again, that doesn't make those games bad or less good just because they liked it as a kid. Um, but, but I, I— yes, I think that you, you do make a good point. That does affect, um, you know, the, the preferences for, for sure.

Yeah, because I think like in a perfect world you can completely separate biases and, um, nostalgia, and then like you said, go back to the, the SpongeBob— SpongeBob— SpongeBob game you played as, as a very small child and say this game sucks. But in some cases I feel like you still get swept into that, into that feeling of, oh, this was the best. And Essie has a great comment: Mario Kart Wii is the best, all caps, by the user Fortnite2004. Exactly, exactly.

I mean, hey, I love Mario Kart Wii, but it's not— nothing can take away Double Dash from me, man. That's, that's the game for me.

Fraud has a follow-up: How does nostalgia intersect with appreciating a game for its time? For example, getting mad that Melee doesn't have a buffer despite no other game at that time having buffer at all. It's so funny.

The question one more time.

I will, and I'm gonna add to it a little bit because I think it's funny because I don't see buffer not being added to the game. I see that as a good thing. I don't— I think buffer in the game would make— would have made it worse, but that's a very unpopular opinion.

Yeah. Buffer drove me like— because I remember even catching it, like, I didn't know the term for it. Yes, I'm not like, you know, I— and I remember even catching it, uh, particularly with, I, I want to say Smash 4. And I, I don't— I, you know, I just remember calling it out and like my like super heady buddy who like knew all this tech was like, oh yeah, that's actually a thing in the game. I'm like, okay, so I'm not crazy. Yeah, something. And the— it drove me nuts.

I was like, why? Why is that a thing?

[Speaker] You are so lucky.

You are so lucky you had someone to talk some sense into you because my brother and I grew up with a CRT. We played laglessly for our whole lives. I went to my friend's house to play Brawl and the game was super delayed and I said, why is everything happening like 3 seconds later? And everyone thought I was making excuses for why I was losing. I was like, no, something's happening. I don't know what it is. And then I learned about like display lag or whatever, like much later. And then also my brother and I would call it like, oh, like remembering moves. That's how we'd call buffer. We're like, I pressed A, but it like remembered that I pressed A way later. I did a nair and killed myself as Ike. Like, why did that happen? And there was no, there was no actually person there to clarify what was happening. I just thought I was going insane for a while.

Yep. Yep. Yeah, no, I was, yeah, I'm glad I had my, my head. And again, I didn't really, because You know, I, I definitely played Brawl brand new and whatnot, but that was definitely before, uh, like, I played the living crap out of Brawl. I really did. And, um, you know, like, that's, that's a game that I play now. And, and even, even my complete— like, he's has very little knowledge of the competitive scene, does not care about competitive Smash, but he's played all the Smash games. He and I played the living crap out of Melee and Brawl. And even he goes back to Brawl now and he's like, dude, it's so slow. Yeah, it's like, it's so— it's just sluggish. He's like, it's not fun to play anymore. But at the time, because it was the new game, you could play Sonic.

Dude, you overlooked that, man.

Yeah, no, dude, we had the most fun time playing that game. But I definitely remember a few years in starting to—

it—

and again, I think that's part of the reason that documentary was like such an eye-opener, because it made me realize Oh, that's what was bugging me with that. Yeah, it was one of those like, I can't tell you, I'm no pro, but something is different about this game and I don't know if I like it as much as Melee because of that. Yeah, so yeah, good stuff.

Um, so we kind of— I think we may have rabbit trailed from the original question a little bit, which is fine. Hey, this is— that's what this is for. Um, Frod said, how does nostalgia intersect with appreciating a game for its time? Almost like You know, um, so you might say, oh, Ocarina of Time is a 10 out of 10 game. And do people say that by today's standards? Do they say it by the standards of— oh yeah, you know, maybe that's an example. Documentary Kid, yo, thanks for the follow! I really appreciate that.

Oh, no way, really?

Yeah, sick. Thank you so much, Travis. I appreciate that. Uh, so yeah, that's the question.

Man, that, that is actually— that's a good question. Um, yeah, no, I definitely, uh, because again, I love Ocarina of Time, but I, I do think it's a little— it's like, are we really still calling that a perfect 10 out of 10 game in 2021? Like, it's not. It's, it's a, it's a solid game, but there's a lot wrong with that game. Um, and you know, by the same token, I expect that years down the line, Breath of the Wild is not going to be a 9.5 or 10 out of 10 game. You know, it's, it's that we're gonna find ways to improve it. Yeah, I don't know how at the moment. You know, I'm, I'm still infatuated with it, but I know, um, but until then, you know, like, I definitely— so I don't know, like, you know, I guess you could almost call it, like, maybe this is the wrong term, like nostalgia inflation or something. It's like, how, how do you How do you judge something, you know, based on, like, based on how good it was either then or how good it is now?

This is, this is one, this is what my mind's going towards. I think you can think about Star Wars Episode IV and you can say, you know, that you have a bunch of, you have a bunch of checkboxes in modern media and you say how many of these checkboxes does this piece of media like check off, I guess. And that list has kind of grown, I guess you could say, since, you know, 30, 40 years ago. So do you have the core story elements? And for games, you have the core gameplay elements. And I think if those are still really solid, you can overlook more superfluous things like, I don't know, yeah, MIDI soundtrack versus— and, and you were in your— I was in one of your streams and you were actually making the case how in some cases MIDI soundtracks can be better for certain gameplay elements and for certain reasons. For example, the example you used, if I remember correctly, was in Mario Galaxy where when you're on that speedy ball, the only way the mechanic with how fast you're going on the ball, the only reason the tempo of that song can change is because of the MIDI format. It's a consequence of the MIDI format. So they literally couldn't like record that and play it, right?

Right, exactly. Yep. Yeah, no, there's, there's no, you know, I'm sure maybe we figured out some way, and if we haven't, I wouldn't be shocked if we do figure out some way to make that happen. Um, you know, you, you could think of it the same way as like, uh, uh, uh, like, um, like the first thing I think of is, uh, uh, Toy Story 2 and just, uh, like the, the record when they're running on the record and they change the RPM. Um, you know, like, it's possible that there's ways to emulate. I'm sure we have ways to emulate that, but regardless, the processing power involved and all that kind of stuff, it just makes so much more sense if— because the way I like to put it is that MIDI is like a— and sorry, this may be a slight rabbit trail again— the way I like to put it is that I'm so ADHD, just stop me if you need me to show this.

Good stuff.

Um, Um, the way I like to put it is that MIDI is kind of like, uh, a music box. So if you actually look at the technicalities of a music box, when you're turning that music box, there's like these little metal pins, right? And there's those little bumps on, on the thing that goes around, because when those bumps hit those little metal pins, the pin will go up and make a noise, right? So it's like you've got these bumps that basically tell the notes when to play. That's MIDI. You know, you can, you can use it to actually transfer information from my keyboard to an actual computer or synthesizer or something, but it's also used in video games where essentially you tell the computer these are the exact notes and what sound they need to play, and the computer will in real time play it back. And so that becomes— you— the great thing about pre-rendered, I suppose, streamed music is that you can record real instruments, get tons of gorgeous sounds, and, and there's, you know, that's unmatched. But MIDI, you have a certain amount of control, uh, over how the music interacts with the video game that to a certain extent still is not matched, uh, with, with streamed music, right? So yeah, it's— there's just— there's pros and cons of both, and they're both still actually in this day and age, both of them are still very important, you know? So it's not— I don't think it's necessarily one over the other.

Yeah, that's a good way to frame it. Um, I remember those days, they were fun because I didn't know the shield button was a thing back in the old Smash Brawl days. Yeah, we all— we were all there. Um, so by the way, I want to say Golden Afro, thank you for the follow. Um, uh, also we got a question, we got a comment here from Alpha. Appreciated it as if through the lens of the time when it came out. Yeah, I think so. The way when I think about Super Mario Bros. 3, I think about that game as being like a 10 out of 10. I think Mario Bros. 3 is such a good— it's like the best of its genre in my opinion. When I think about Melee, I think it was a 10 out of 10. When I think about Ocarina of Time, I hesitate with 10 out of 10 because like, like you said, there are flaws with it. But when I really look at it fairly within the context of its time, it's a 10 out of 10. It has to be a 10 out of 10.

I can understand that. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

So, and then let's take this all back to what I was saying about Star Wars Episode IV. That movie is, you know, as far as sci-fi, um, you know, space opera movies go, it is the— like, you know, you could say Return of the Jedi, or you could say, um, Empire Strikes Back is better, or whatever, but you get my point.

Sure. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, I get you. Um, yeah, no, I, I think I would agree with that. Um, it, it— I think, I think that's just where, like, definitely from, like, a, a more critical standpoint, you know, there's a lot of— and I love watching the people that, like, well, more—

they have these huge essays and stuff.

Yeah, yeah, I— dude, I love watching those people, even, even if I don't agree with it. I'm like, I want to see like what your thoughts are on this. One of my favorites at the moment, uh, he goes by King K.

Oh, King K is awesome.

Heard him, or— yeah, he's fantastic. I, I, I love watching his stuff. And, uh, but he also, he really interests me because, you know, he'll, he'll start talking about stuff that I've never even thought about in video games, um, and his, his kind of keen eye on, on certain game design points and whatnot.

I completely agree.

But, um, —But yeah, no, regardless, I think that's where it gets a little interesting, where it's like, how critical is too critical? You know what I mean? Like, when, when, when do you need to step back and look at the bigger picture?

Yeah, well, you know, it's really about—

maybe Ocarina of Time is one of those. Yeah, exactly.

It's like, what rubric are you setting up by which you're judging the medium or the, or the whatever, the content? I think that's important. You almost have to ask that before you even answer the merit of how good something is, or what's the best one, or the most definitive. You have to basically always define the rubric. You can't just say it as a standalone. Um, totally. Alpha Storm: The thing about judging games from generations past is that if you don't think about it correctly, you're judging older games on the newer games, which have better and better hardware. At the time of, say, Ocarina of Time coming out, it was groundbreaking because that was the most up-to-date hardware. Exactly, and good point. From Josh, we have: MIDI is quite an incredible tool. An important thing to note with MIDI is the fact that it is not audio, more of a trigger system. It can be used for completely different programs and things. MIDI is commonly used for stage lighting, actually, even.

This is true. Yeah, yeah, it is. It's, it's essentially just data, really. Yeah, that's what it's a specified kind of data translation transfer, you know.

I mean, I'm not the most computer-y person, but But then that's where like soundfont comes in too, right? Because if you have a certain soundfont, you can plug in what the same MIDI and have it sound like completely different based on what soundfont you're using to produce it, right?

Yeah, I, I believe so. And again, uh, you know, I'm not the, the, the most brilliant with the computer stuff, so somebody can definitely correct me on this if I'm wrong. But yeah, it's, it's essentially having, you know, your own set of your, your own sound palette, if you will. Um, and, and dialing it in. And so then, yeah, you can— and, and that's how, as far as I'm concerned, that's how you get those, those different, you know, very, very— you can tell it's an SNES game, but it's still different sounds coming from, you know, Chrono Trigger does not sound like Link to the Past, right? You know, Super Metroid does not sound like, uh, Super Mario World. So yeah.

There are some really cool, there are some really cool songs that I've heard where they've taken like Hyrule Field from Ocarina of Time and they basically played it back through the Banjo-Kazooie sound font. And it's so cool. It sounds so, it has a completely different tone where it's like kind of, you know, it's like goofy and fun and playful. And in Zelda it's all like adventurous and and you know, what do you expect from Zelda? It's just so funny, it's the same exact MIDI and it's just the different sound font that gives it completely different character.

Yeah, yeah, I heard a— so I think somebody translated, and I suppose it's less sound font because the way the Genesis sound chip works is different than the SNES. The SNES actually handles actual sample audio files, whereas the Genesis is an actual like synthesizer that creates its own sounds, um, for lack of a better way to explain this. Wow, I didn't, I didn't know that. Um, yeah, and that's, that's why you get those different set— that's why they sound so different. Um, but, um, what was so cool, somebody translated the Super Metroid, uh, soundtrack to the Genesis, and it's so cool hearing that. Um, because it's a totally— the Genesis has got a little bit more of a bitey tone to it. Um, it's, it's, it's almost a little bit more gritty and aggressive, which was totally on brand with the Sega as a whole. I feel like that was just like a match made in heaven. Like, I, I'm, I'm not even sure they thought about that, but it just worked out that way. Um, and, uh, so like hearing someone like pretty faithfully like translate the Super Metroid soundtrack, which is already so cool. That's such a great— that, like, that is— that game is like Ambience 101, like, or Atmosphere 101 is a better, better word. Yeah. Um, but, but like the way they do the music and the sound effects in that game anyway, this person that translated to Genesis, you know, I, I don't know if I would— I think I'd still pick the SNES version, but it's so cool to hear it because this just such a different tone, but it's— I, I, it, it was just awesome because that is really cool.

Um, Donnie says, that's my argument with Breath of the Wild 2. Even though there are definitive problems— dungeon variety, enemy variety, etc.— what it did for open world games and the wonder it inspired for me makes it an easy 10 out of 10, even if zoomer bad opinion mongers like Josh give it a 7. Donald, we don't need to call people names here. Like, you don't have to call someone a— you have to call someone a Zoomer like that. Oh, sorry, that wasn't the offensive term.

Um, oh my God, we're already becoming the, the next Boomers.

I know, gotta stir the pot a little bit, boys. Just have to, just have to rile up the— hey, look, the way that I put it is, um, people respond well to controversy. And if we're, if we're trying to poke fun at the biggest demographic on Twitch, hey, That's more, it's more attention for us, right? I suppose it's true.

Any publicity is good publicity. Yeah.

So, um, a bit of clarification on my statement. MIDI is— this is from Musical Josh— MIDI is really just a language that allows for communication between different tech. That's a good way of putting it. Cypher says, speaking of Mario Bros 3, someone decompressed the soundtrack and restored it to original audio. Oh, that is so cool. Oh, Super Mario World. Mario World, he said.

Yeah, I was about to say, probably not Mario 3 because that's NES. Yeah. Square waves and whatnot. Um, yeah, no, that, that would probably then mean that they found the original samples or were able to recreate them via whatever, uh, you know, synthesizers Koji Kondo used, right? Um, you know, which, which is really cool. I think I've seen— but, and maybe they use some other method, I have no clue. I don't know how those people do that, but that's, that's my guess.

We'll have them on, we'll have on stream sometime and you and I can ask some questions. We'll do that. Um, okay, so I'd be into that. Me too. So the last question on this list here has to do with, um, if for people— Musical Josh, his name is not Musical Josh as a joke, he actually is interested in the music career also, um, and he loves Mario Sunshine, so he, he is very happy to be here. So for somebody like Josh who is, um, getting a degree in music and looking to make it a career and What tips do you have for them? First off, I guess with music, and then I'm also more interested in broader content creation if you have tips for that too.

Okay, yeah, this is always the tough one to answer. I think getting into the industry, it is any— so many like people are gonna tell you this, but it's the absolute truth. You've got to have the time, you've got to have the commitment, um, and the passion for it. Um, because, you know, I'm sure plenty of other people will tell you, you, you can't just be like, I'm gonna be a musician and walk out and expect someone to just, you know, hand you an application and say, come work at our studio, you know. Um, and so it, it requires a lot of commitment And I think if there's anything that I have learned over time, it's just to— don't be afraid to share your work. Don't be afraid to put it out there. Be confident in your work. That doesn't mean be arrogant in your work, but it just— it means Yeah, it means to be confident. I think that's— that's there. I'm not going to try and define that. Um, but, um, you know, I think there have been so many times where I have made connections or gotten gigs just solely based on the fact that I reached out, um, or because I just shared my work, because I put it up somewhere. You know, sharing can be as simple as literally throwing your stuff on SoundCloud. And I think that's also very beneficial to you because what it does is you create something and you put it out there. And you get that feeling of knowing that you saw something to the end. You know, you started this project, you saw it to the end, you completed it, you put it out there. And I think that's really important for creators. Um, you know, I've, I've run into so many situations where I've talked to so many people where they're just too scared, they're too perfectionists, they're too scared to just put their stuff out there. Uh, and it's harmful, you know. I, I think a lot of these people, I'm like, man, there is so much that you could be sharing, even if not a lot of people, um, hear it, you know, it's such a good learning experience to share it. And then again, that is, that is potentially, you never know who's gonna hear it, you know. So, um, I, I think it's, it's definitely just having that passion to just keep going, you know, even when it seems like no one's on your side and you're not getting listened to, etc., etc.

Um, I think, I think it's very important So yeah, and maybe another thing too is you mentioned like people perfectionists. Maybe you just promise yourself, look, the very first track I ever published is maybe my worst. Maybe that's my worst.

Yeah, it's not. And that's exactly—

and that needs to be okay because you only get better through doing. I think that's very true. I think actually accomplishing something and putting it out there as proof as you can do it —is so important. And then you just keep doing that. And then hopefully— I mean, let's put it this way. If in a year your 100th track is like your first track, that's bad. You want it to be better than that. So you want your first track to be your worst one in some senses. Maybe that's not an exact science. It's not like you only get better when you do it more times. It does not work like that necessarily. But like over time, like roughly speaking, it should be an upward trajectory, I would say. Yeah, yeah, no, I—

yeah, and I think, I think just the beginning stages, that there, there's a part of me that is so nostalgic and, and misses those beginning stages of production, particularly, you know. I remember when I finally got my— I recorded some stuff with my dad in his studio, um, back in the day, but once I was able to get my own laptop and have stinky GarageBand. I mean, GarageBand honestly doesn't suck. I'm just laying the groundwork here, painting a picture for you. I've got GarageBand on this iBook G4 from 2004. We've maxed it out at a whopping 1.5 gigabytes of RAM, um, and I'm, I'm, I'm able to pretty much make a song running at 10 frames per second. Anyway, the idea The idea still— or not the idea, my memories still are so positive of that though, because I learned so much. And it's such an exciting time when you're just getting started in the field and you start messing around and you start being creative and just sharing things, making things. It might suck, you know, I look back at most of that stuff, it's awful. You know, sometimes there's really great ideas in there. And I think that's what I love is I love listening back and hearing the passion and that spark because it's such an exciting time. So do not be afraid to share your stuff and just do it. I think that's the dumb thing that everybody says, but it's so true. You're going to learn the most and you're probably going to make the most progress by just doing it. Yeah. You know?

Good stuff. Cypher in chat says, David and Garrett, the hecking crossover we needed. Thanks for doing this. Dude, yeah. Absolutely. Gary, this has been great. Josh just said, being able to share my work has really been a motivation booster. I'd say it's helped my work as well. I used to delete everything I made. I still do it when I write lyrical content. LOL. But now that I've been throwing my tracks up on SoundCloud, I've gotten even more comfortable with sharing what I've made. A final question, if I may. I would like to know how much you split up the writing and arranging parts of the track. I find that I often arrange as I go.

It's— yeah, it's, it's kind of a messy, um, process for me. Um, you know, I, I probably do both simultaneously. Um, a lot of times I'll hear most of the parts in my head before I record record a thing. Um, other times, you know, it's a little bit harder for me to get in that zone. Um, or, or rather, most of the time that I hear all the parts, that kind of situation is probably when I'm like really inspired. You know, other times it's like, hey man, we need this track by next week, you know, and I gotta pay bills, right? And so it's like you just have to sit at the piano and start figuring something out. And that's, that's sometimes where the writer's block thing comes into play. But regardless, a lot of times when, when I, when I write that way, a lot of times I'll, I'll come up with a general like piano keyboard idea, get the melody figured out, get the maybe the chords figured out, uh, and then as I'm going along and record— a lot of times as I'm going along recording, um, just the piano just to get the, the, the scratch concept across uh, recording in Logic, I'll already start either throwing in really dumb like sounds, uh, or piano parts, or even sing it, you know. Um, it's different every single time, but, uh, but yeah, it's, it's often, I would say, very messy for me, where a lot of times the arrangement and how I figure out how to arrange, it's just kind of part of that creative process. Like, it just kind of hits me in random waves, and I'm like, oh, I could do that. Oh, I could— maybe I should take this out and put this here, etc., etc. So Yeah, I don't know if there's a solid answer I can give you. Mm-hmm. But, but yeah, that's generally my process. I know a lot of people, you know, will probably write the whole general, like, outline for the song and then start to fill it in and figure out the arrangements. It really just depends on, on the person. Yeah. And their creative system.

It does. As a creative myself, I think when you get those little inspirations, you hear the ditty in your head, you get some kind of inspiration, find a way to write it down wherever you are. Just write it down somewhere. [Speaker:STAN] Yeah, for sure. For sure. [Speaker:STEPHEN] It's like 11, you know, midnight or something, and I come— this is not music related, but I come up with an idea of something I want to make. I write it on my to-do list on my phone and then I go back to sleep. Because part of it is, if I don't write it down, I will keep thinking about it and obsessing about it and I will not go to sleep and I will also forget it by the next morning and it's the lose-lose situation. You never want to be in.

Um, oh my gosh, there have been situations where I remember having like a brilliant melody in my head and I think I wasn't able to record it or I just didn't because I was stupid. And nothing, nothing hurts more than that. That, that is one of the most painful. I'm just like, oh my— like, it's, it's like having something on the tip of your tongue, but like on— it's like that feeling on steroids. Yeah, it's right there. So sing— what was it? I was a genius for 5 minutes and I lost it.

So sing your little ditty idea into your phone and record it and email it to yourself or something. That's exactly—

do whatever it takes. No, I— dude, my voice memo app on here is my savior. I use it all the time. Seriously, this, this is my lifesaver. Um, I, I sing and play so many ideas into this. And I try to transfer them as much as possible to my computer. Cool.

Okay, so from a marketing standpoint, um, one other thing I wanted to add on to what you said is there are so many free tools, um, so there's no excuse. When you say just do it, there's a free version of something out there. There's no excuse. You can't say I don't have the money to get started. Okay, look, you can buy a laptop on Craigslist for $5. You can, you know, you can There's some free version of whatever tool you want to use eventually. Just like that's— okay, so this is going to be a little self-promo, a little shill for myself here for an unreleased project. I'm releasing a little micro podcast called Plain Marketing, and it's designed like 10 minutes or less podcast episodes of just practical tips for creators that are like really obvious things, but like one topic and then you move on. Like there's one on usernames, picking a good username. There's one on profile pictures, one on setting up a complete profile, and then, anyway, one of the things I'm gonna talk about is like, from a marketing standpoint, like, figure out email. Maybe you never send an email in your professional career, learn Mailchimp, it's free, and then you never have to do it again, but at least you have the knowledge. You know, learn Twitter, maybe you hate Twitter, literally set up an account, things like that. So I'm, this is the first time I've kind of announced anything around it, So, um, look forward to that, but it's gonna be all stuff like this.

Yeah, so there you go. Yeah, no, I, I, I definitely agree that it's so— guys, it's so easy to get into. Like, in, in my field, it's so easy to get into music nowadays. Um, it really, really is. Um, you know, if, if you seriously— if you have an iPhone or an iPad, they already have GarageBand. In the iPhone or the iPad. It's not half bad. It honestly is not. Like, I, I could probably accomplish almost as much as I was able to on that laptop, what, what, 14 years ago. It's seriously, it's so easy now. And even, even if it's not like the most ideal thing, I think what, what is so great about people is that even subconsciously, we don't think about it, but we totally adapt to our surroundings and, and what's around us. We creatively are able to, again, even if we're not directly thinking about it, we creatively figure out a way to problem solve. Um, and so there's a lot of stuff that I did, guys. I recorded, um, Settled and Smash on an AT2020 USB mic. That thing was like $100. If even. Um, and you know, uh, like I was working on an iMac from '09 when making that. Like, you know, that there was very little money that you can think of that was probably put into that project, you know. I— and, and there's plenty of other artists out there that'll say the same thing. It's like their first big projects that actually may have helped them take off they recorded it and the— some— you, you'd think they recorded it in some big fancy studio. No, dude, they probably recorded it on an AT2020 USB microphone in their closet. Like, that's like— so seriously, it's like, if, if you want to get started, just start doing it. Because yeah, it's especially now more than ever, it is— it only gets easier and easier. And I do think there's advantages and disadvantages, etc. That's a whole other conversation, but Regardless, if you want to get into it, the resources are there, and, and I think you should do it. Yeah, I totally think you should. Music is a beautiful thing. I love music.

Along that, along those lines, uh, Kimball Donald says lead singer of Death Cab for Cutie literally has a song he recorded entirely on his iPhone on his studio out on his solo album. Yep. So there you go. All right, well, um, it's, it's awesome. Uh, I want to say thank you to Milk Church for the follow, and with that Dude, Garrett, this has been great. Thanks for being on and chatting about music and everything else.

Thank you so much, dude. I had a blast. I love talking about this stuff. Seriously, man. Thank you so much for having me on.

Awesome. Well, if we can get a 1 in chat if you enjoyed Garrett being here, and if you put any other number in there, I'll assume that you just didn't enjoy it at all. So choose carefully.

All right. Awesome. Everybody just puts in 2s.

I know. Cool. We're getting a lot of ones. Yeah. Awesome. Dude, by the way, shout out to Documentary Kid. He's— Travis is the guy that made the metagame doc. I know a lot of you in chat and I watched it together. So shout out to Travis and Samox, he's known by that. Thanks so much for the follow and for being here. It means a lot to me. So thanks.

Yes. Thank you. And also hi Travis. You rock, bro. Good to see you here.

Anyway, sorry, no problem. And we'll, we'll transition to the, uh, the main screen here. And again, thanks for being on, man. Talk to you later.

Yeah, absolutely. Talk to you later. Bye.