Fireside Chat: Brave Selling, Brave Leadership: How We Build Courage When Fear Shows Up

So, Jill, tell us about a moment in your life. Think back in your, your memory bank where you were genuinely scared and you had to choose to be brave. And the question is really, what did you do and what did you learn?

That's a great question. So the memory immediately pops in my mind of when I was 19 years old. So everyone knows I'm a United States Marine. So if I go back to when I was 19 years old, I was going to school at the University of San Diego as part of the ROTC program, Marine option. And at this point, I'm a sophomore in college, and someone from my unit thought it would be a great idea to go over to the Navy SEAL base in Coronado island, and they sold it as a fun field trip. All right, so that is the context. Now imagine me standing on a platform 40ft in the air. In front of me, there is this over 100 foot rope that extends down to the ground or a platform underneath me. It looks like. It looks like a zip line, but it's a rope. And there, there's no equipment. It's just me and my body. And I don't think I've ever been so scared because it's one of those moments where, you know, in a professional environment, you try to act cool, like you're not scared. And sometimes you can hide it. In this specific situation, I could not hide it because my knees were shaking, my hands were shaking, my body was making it very evident. So I'm up on this platform and I had a choice to make. I mean, I wasn't just scared of falling. I was scared of failing in front of all my peers. And I climbed on that rope and I went down that rope. And when my feet hit the ground on the other side, something shifted. And this course on the Navy SEAL base, it's not even called an obstacle course because there's all these obstacles on the beach in Coronado. It's actually called the confidence course. And I realized it at the end of it, of why they call it a confidence course, because when you do something scared, you become more confident. So I think that moment sticks out of my mind. And that carries through to my research today and even my time, because my first job out of the Marine Corps was in sales. When you're scared, it doesn't mean that you run the other way or you stop or you hesitate. You move forward, and then you realize, like the sky did not fall, I did not die. And I'm actually now feeling more confident because I took a step on shaky knees.

So what was your technique? Did you do it like this?

No, no, no, no. So, I mean, this is actually interesting that you asked that, because when you see that so much of it is technique and you have to be wise enough to listen to really smart people. So on this obstacle, you, you don't go under it. You don't go like this. You actually put your body on top of the, the rope and you just pull yourself down. So in our minds it's so scary, but once you get on the rope and you start going, it's actually not that hard. Yeah. So, yeah, that's a secret. And I mean, every single one of those obstacles is like a. It's designed to torture you and scare you because that's just one of them. But they're all possible. And we make out in our mind that it's so much worse than it is. You listen to the instructors, you do it, you're told you'll be safe and you'll get through it.

Yeah. I think the technique is so important because when, when you do pull ups and you just pull yourself up, it's so much harder than when they tell you to break the bar and actually pull this way.

Yeah.

All of a sudden different muscles engage and it becomes easier.

That's so true. Even it makes me think of climbing a rope. Something I had to learn. I just did a Spartan run. You know, Spartans are, There's all the obstacles. Climbing a rope looks so hard. You see this huge rope going up there. To do the Spartan, most people think you have to like just use your upper body. You just use your legs. You, you pull up your legs and you pinch the rope and then you stand up. So like climbing a rope and so I wasn't running it for time and all these people are struggling. So I sat there and I helped three people learn how to do the technique. And they got to the top and then I high fived them because I wasn't doing it for time. But it was so great to see how happy and elated and they're like, I just climbed that rope.

That's awesome.

Yeah. You know, when I was a kid in junior high and high school, we had a 30 foot rope hanging from the gymnasium ceiling. And every day at the beginning of gym class, we had to go in there and climb up to the top, touch the rafter and climb back down. And we were just kids, but we got to where we were fearless about it. And then some people got the ones that were really fit would put their legs out straight, not use them at all and just go. I never did that.

But word. But here's the lesson. The more you do something, the less scary it becomes.

Yeah.

The more you run away from your fear, you give the fear more power, and then your world gets a little bit smaller and your confidence shrinks. So when there's something that's scary, you just have to do it scared. And even if it's like climbing a rope, someone may fail it the first time, but you keep trying and trying. Right. That takes. Takes the power away from the fear, and then your world gets bigger. Right. And then your confidence increases. So that's why I just teach people. Like, if you're scared, people think it's a stop sign or it's a danger and I should run the other direction. Like, feeling uncomfortable and feeling the fear. That is a good thing. Seek it out.

Yeah. That's a survival impulse. It's just natural. And the interesting thing about it is the only scary part is the first, like, 10 seconds. Right. All the rest of it's just process. But that first. Oh, stepping off the bungee platform or something out of the airplane, that moment is just freaking terrifying.

It's so true. Yeah. And one of the keys is just don't hesitate. Know that this is the best thing, but if you keep thinking about it, then the likelihood of you doing it goes down over time. So don't hesitate. Just move.

Years ago, I was a salesperson selling Earl Nightingale's training materials, motivational tapes in Little Rock, Arkansas. And to this day, if you say call reluctance, in my mind, I relive the one sales call I didn't make just for fear of making the call. Years later, I came back to that same business and made a call on them just out of the blue to kind of erase the emotional scar. Didn't work. I still remember the cowardice of backing off and not making that call that day.

Yeah, yeah. And 10 seconds. Exactly. Exactly. And this skill of bravery or courage, it is so applicable to salespeople because salespeople, they are scared of sometimes calling on the big customer number one or asking the uncomfortable questions or even just closing for the business. So it's one of those skills. I mean, everyone knows that because we're all salespeople or sales leaders here. Like, we have to. We have to lead our team to get over that fear. If not, we're going to be leaving so much business on the table.

Yeah.

So let's go back to your days at the Marine Officer. Can you. Can you share a picture of what that looked like?

Oh, yeah, we're gonna go back. I look like a baby. I'm. We're gonna share some of these photos. Oh, my gosh. It's just. Look at how young I looked. I didn't want to put my hair up in a braid, so I cut it short. Look at that baby face.

Look like a teenager.

Yeah.

So how did that environment ap. Relationship with fear and develop your ability to be a leader?

Yeah. You know what? The one thing that comes to mind is when I was commissioned as a lieutenant in the Marine Corps. Like one of your first jobs? Yeah. There's me all cameoed up. That's me in the middle. One of. The first job of a Marine Corps officer is usually a platoon commander. So I was leading Marines, a platoon of Marines, and they had just opened up an mos That's a combat arm, military occupational specialty. So when they opened up combat engineering, I raised my hand and said, I want to be one of the first. So I'm one of the first ever combat engineer officers as a woman. Okay, take down that like that. You got to take down that picture. Okay, there we go. It's all cammy. And when I reported into my first company commander, I don't know if he really knew what to do with me, because he had never let. Let a female. And then, of course, my Marines were looking up, going like, how's this going to go? Here's what I so appreciate from my first company commander, which was Wayne Sinclair, is he did not treat me any different than he treated the male Marines. And I was in the very best shape of my life. I'll share. I always share my embarrassing stories, but the very first time we went on a run as a company, like, this is what you dream of. The company commander's out front, and then there's the first platoon commander. I'm the second platoon commander. And then we're running. And again, I had. I had the fastest run scores that were possible for a female. And we go out and we're like, you know, left, right, 1, 2, 3, 4. United States Marine Corps. It is like, this is the best thing ever. Now, I had always run in, like, Quantico, you know, in Camp Lejeune. Now, I reported into Camp Pendleton. Do we know the topography of California? It's a little bit different. We start going up and down hills, and we started going up a hill, and I fell back, which means I did everything I could, and I couldn't keep up to the pace of my company commander. And it may not sound like a big deal to all of you. But it is the most shameful thing as a Marine Corps officer is allowing the gap and not being able to keep up. So this is my first week as a platoon commander. I mean, this is one of my lowest moments of all. We get back to the company, the building, I get called into the company commander's office to report in, and Captain Sinclair asked me. He's like, just what happened? In a caring way. And he just said, jill, I want you to be the most successful officer in this battalion. And even though you exceed all the standards of what women are required to do physically, you've got to do so much more to effectively lead men.

Yeah.

And he was right. So he did not lower the standard for me. He said, you need to. So I just trained harder than I had before, and I got to the point where I could outrun at least half of the battalion, and I earned that respect. And like, I remember the next week, Captain Sinclair at the time said, he goes, every lieutenant goes into the boxing ring. You gotta learn how to take a punch. You're a Marine. So I went in the boxing ring. I got, you know, I learned how to take a punch, right. And because he did not lower the standard because I was a girl, that is what made me so strong. So let's translate that to leadership today. You know, if you want to be a great leader, set a very, very high standard of excellence of what's expected, and do not ever compromise on what the standard is. Love your people enough to help them, you know, meet that standard. And some people may not make the standard right away, but believe in them and keep working with them, and then when they achieve that high standard, it'll be amazing. And here's my most. The reason I share the story, because I'm so proud of it. So under Captain Sinclair's leadership, I actually became the top lieutenant in the battalion. And I was selected to be the officer that commanded a special operations capable unit that was deploying. And that never would have happened without his leadership. So I just, I. I'm so glad he pushed me and said, no, no, no. Like the standard even higher. So. And I think sometimes leaders, we just want to, you know, we want to just make it sometimes easier, lower the standards to make them more achievable or easier. And when you lower the bar, you are not doing anyone a favor.

Yeah. And people say, well, that's not fair. Well, fairness, first off, life doesn't operate by fairness rules. You know, fairness is give everybody the same size uniform exactly. For no matter what the size of their body.

Yeah.

You know, I was an army platoon commander as a lieutenant, so I can definitely identify with.

Oh, and you know what it's like when someone falls back. So when you heard that, you're like, oh, boy.

Oh, yeah. And one time as a, as a recruit in basic training, we were on a five mile run and, and I had, unbeknownst to me, measles and pneumonia. And I'm running along and I got weaker and weaker and finally passed out in a ditch. And the whole company ran past me and I finally ran back and caught up with them, but the next day I was in the hospital. So all of this is becoming very real to me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it applies. Like we did what we did physically, but like in the workplace, it's the same, same thing. So if everyone has that same, that same attitude and belief, we're gonna achieve so much more.

Well, let's transition this from the physical fears and that kind of thing to the kind of fears that sales leaders are encountering now. You know, people look at something as complex as AI or as simple as AI, depending on how you look at it. And they have the same thing that I had outside that business with the call reluctance and that you had staring at that rope. They've got the fear and they've got people who have those fears. So not only what can they do, but what can they, as leaders do to alleviate or at least transition past the fear?

Yeah, well, it's the fear of uncertainty, right? That's what we're really talking about, the uncertainty with AI but just in general, like, you know, uncertainty will always be there. In fact, in the military we talked about Vuca, remember that? Volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity, it's always going to be there. But the people that freeze and don't move, those are the people that lose. So we need to keep moving forward in the presence of uncertainty. So we have a choice, like, you know, something like AI, we can choose to be a little intimidated by it and then not use it and kind of avoid it. That's only going to make us weaker. Anytime you avoid something that you fear, you're going to give it more power. So we need to move toward it, learn about it. Right. Even if it's scary. And as you move toward it, then it becomes less scary. Right. So we've got to move forward. And then as you talk about the fears of leaders. So as leaders, many times we're leading our teams through times of uncertainty. And in times, and sometimes through change initiatives, and then also, leaders sometimes have the fear of giving honest feedback, and that's one I hear many times. So one of the things I work with clients on is how do we help leaders lean in to giving the constructive feedback that's going to help their employees grow? How do we help our leaders confidently move toward change and inspire their sales teams to move toward. Move into the fear instead of just waiting until everyone feels emotionally, like, ready for it. Right. We can accelerate that process if we lead our teams the right way, including with A.I.

yeah. The only news that's good news is the whole truth, no matter whether it's ugly or pretty.

Yeah, exactly. So move forward. Move forward toward it. You're going to be so much better off than just waiting. And. And that's. You know, some people go like, well, you know, how do you know if someone is allowing fear to control them? When people say this, I'm going to wait and see, that is a sign that you're allowing fear to control your behavior and you're using fear as a stop sign. Or, I'm not ready. I'm not gonna. I'm not quite ready yet to use it again. That's fear talking. So sometimes fear is. It's kind of sneaky because it shows up as wisdom to keep us safe. But in reality, most of the fear that we experience is social fear. It's not physical fear. So when you feel the fear, we should lean in and move toward it, not wait and see or run away from it.

Always, almost always emotional fear. And people say things like, you can't be too careful. Yes, you can.

Yes, you can.

That's the worst thing you can do sometimes. Yeah, yeah.

And especially, like, I mean, I'm passionate about. Because I was a sales leader for 15 years before I started my own company. You know, so many of my salespeople would be like, I'm not quite ready yet to ask that hard question. You know, I'm not quite ready to close yet. I'm like, like. And I tell this story to. I used to tell this all to my. The reps that I used to lead. I learned very early in my sales career that the lesson I learned in the Marine Corps applied to me in sales. If I felt a little bit intimidated, I needed to move anyway. I mean, I'm getting out of the Marine Corps, going into the pharmaceutical industry at the time. And my job was to talk to doctors. And I was intimidated. Like, these are doctors, right? I'm supposed to ask them hard questions and. And tell them or ask them to change the way they treat their patients.

And.

And I was scared, and I just did it anyway. And I did really, really well. And I realized, like, I actually knew more about my little area of expertise than they did. And I have, and I have great pride in this, but in the moment, it was a big failure. I really pushed one physician once, one of my biggest physicians, in terms of quantity. Like, he was one of my top 10. And I asked him an uncomfortable question and I closed him. I challenged him to use the product that was going to have the most efficacious response to patients. So basically choose the best product. Mine was better than what he was using, and I had the evidence there. And he threw me out of the office and I was never allowed back. So in the moment, I was like, I have failed. Like, I am not a good salesperson. But in retrospect, because I was assertive about the best product for the patients. If you add up all the sales of everyone else without his, I still had the top results in the nation. So this was a little bit of a sign. And I realized afterwards, so this was a. An Asian doctor that really cares about respect. And he was older than me. So it was a cultural mistake. But I still don't regret it, because if I would have been more timid with all of my customers, I never would have achieved the results. And we, we don't want to get aggressive for us, but we should be assertive about why our product can do the best job for our clients. And you don't have to apologize for that.

So in your book the Bravery Effect,

you write that bravery is a skill, not a personality traits. What does your research tell you how that skill is developed?

Yeah.

So people think that bravery is a trait you're born with, not a skill that you can build. And that is. That is a myth. So we can build bravery. There's three ways to do it. We have to believe that we can do hard things, that it's possible. And I use the power of the word yet. Like someone says, I can never climb a rope. Just say, I can never climb a rope yet. Right? So we have to believe it's possible, even though we know it's going to be hard. Then we have to learn how to take a step forward on shaky knees. That comes from behavioral psychology. And then I talk about social psychology. So I want to just add in here, like, based on the science. And I don't want to nerd out too much here. We know that our brain changes when we are scared and do it anyway. Just Like a muscle changes when we stress our muscles. So if you lift something really heavy, right, like you can only do maybe like six or eight reps, you do three sets, it's going to hurt if we're doing it right and then we're going to be sore the next day and then our, our muscles will remodel. The same thing happens in our brain. It is so fascinating. Specifically if you're a little bit scared and you do it anyway, our brain changes our prefrontal cortex, specifically within the anterior cingulate cortex, the, the mcc, a part of it actually gets bigger and there's more neural pathways. So when I tell people you can build a skill of skill of bravery, you, when you build the skill, your brain changes to make it easier for you to do that scary thing next time.

So the prefrontal cortex is the executive function of the brain. It's sort of the inner CEO. And what you're saying is that when you make the decision to do it anyway, it expands that decision making faculty.

It does. It absolutely does.

Yep.

Yeah, it's, it's fascinating. So they see the cortical thickening. You talked about the prefrontal cortex that gets larger when we work on our bravery. But we also see in a full functional mri, this is where you light up to see where things happen. There's a more neural pathways that go from the prefrontal cortex back to the ACC and mcc. So it's fascinating. I'm just diving into this stuff. Like I, like I know a lot, but I don't know all of it. And in fact, this is what in my next book I want to write more about. Because I think it's just fascinating when you realize the mechanism, at least for me. Like if you realize the mechanism, it motivates people more to do it. Like it will become easier over time.

So what, what is the relationship between fear, stress and high performance?

Great question. Your relationship with fear and stress is predictive of how high you perform. If you think that stress and fear is the enemy, something to avoid, you will never be a really high performer. However, if you view stress as what's needed for you to grow and develop and fear something to move toward, not run away from, you will be more successful as a high performer. And actually that's the reason why I named the book the Bravery Effect. Because think of the compound effect. If someone decides to ask the hard question to close for the business, to have the difficult conversation, to put their name in the hat for a promotion, even though they're a little Bit scared. And just take that. That skill of bravery. And then think of the compound effect at the end of a year, the end of five years, the end of 10 years, what that would have on someone's career. And then think of the opposite. And you used the word Jim before of cowering. And that is what the act. If we shrink in the face of fear and we let control us, that is a verb of. We decide to cower. If we don't ask the hard question, if we don't close for the business because we're afraid of a no, if we don't post for the promotion, et cetera, imagine what that person's performance and career will be like in five years, in 10 years.

You know, it's interesting to pick the word apart. Cower. C O W E R. That's the root word for coward. Right. And which is being completely controlled and intimidated by your fear. The. The other word is empower. And empower means to add or give power. Yeah. And the separation of those two, cowering and empowering, is that little nanosecond of facing the painful part of the fear beyond which everything else is fine again.

Yeah, Yeah, I love that. And can I add on to that, too? Is if we go to the root words, think of encourage, too.

To give courage.

To give courage. So surround yourself. And this is the third part of my book. We talk about brave relationships. Surround yourself with people that will encourage you, that will not allow you to tap out when you're scared, that will say, get up and try. I believe in you. Because we're going to have moments of doubt that we may not want to move forward. So surround yourself with the people. And for me, that was all my fellow Marines, of course. You know, surround yourself with the top salespeople, the people that are going to help push you. And that's what your leader's job is, too. Your leader should be encouraging you to be brave and face your fears.

And if encouragement and reassurance are not the same. Right. Oh, you can do it. Oh, come on. You know, it's not that bad. That's. That's just token reassurance. Encourage means I did something that caused you to have more courage in the moment. Yeah, yeah, I've got your back. Or remember the three steps or focus on the rope or. Or bend the bar. You know, whatever it is that'll encourage. Where's the. Oh, no, you know, don't worry about it.

Okay.

Yeah, that's superficial.

So, Jill, you talk about moments of doubt. I want to talk about moments of bravery. Give me some examples from today where you practiced moments of bravery.

Well, the one that I told you about is on the day of my book launch, because I'm teaching about bravery, I decided the one thing that I'm most scared of is jumping out of an airplane. We've used a lot of examples in sales, but, like, back when I was a marine, you have an opportunity. You could actually get your jump wings. And I'm like, never in a million years do I ever. I was terrified of it. So for me to celebrate my book launch, I'm like, I need to do the thing that I am the most scared of. So, yeah, this past August, I jumped out of a plane. And here's the interesting thing is when you move toward what you fear, you take the power away from the fear. Right. So I was actually. I did all this cognitive reframing. I'm going up and saying, this is excitement. This is not fear. Everything was great. Right? And then we get almost to the top, and they open the door. And then, like, none of that worked. I was just. I was terrified. But I told him, I'm like, I want to be the first one to go. And have. Have either of you been skydiving before? Yes. You have? All right, so. So, Jim.

Not. Not yet.

Not yet. Yes, exactly. Gerhard, I think you and I should jump out of a plane together.

All right, You're a certified instructor.

Let's do it. Well, no, we'll go, but we'll go to a. A jump place and we'll jump out of a plane together. So once you jump, it is terrifying for about three seconds.

Yeah.

And then once you get the wind resistant, it is actually the most serene

silence.

Yeah. So once you. Once I did it, I'm like, wow, now it still would be scary, but now it's less scary than it was before. So whatever. You're so scared of asking people, someone out on a date, you know, you know, maybe changing roles from, like, sales or marketing or just any of those things. Just. Just do it. And you're going to realize it's not as scary as you think.

Was it scary for you to do your first TEDx talk?

Yes. I can't believe how scared I was. Yes, it was. Because, you know, you've got a certain amount of time. So here's what happened. When I decided to do my TEDx, like, I had my script, I flew into Maryland where I did it. I flew in early, like, almost two days early. And. And I put the script aside, and I decided to just practice. Once And I was not articulate. I went over time and I realized, oh, my goodness, like, actually not. That's not the word I used. I used a lot of curse words of saying, oh, you know what? I. I am not ready for this. And this is in the day after to like, it was in a day and a half. Um, and then one thing I realized. And this relates to leading sales too. Not. But I remember that you do not rise to the occasion. You fall to the level of your training. I realize I didn't put in enough reps because for a TEDx, the stakes are high and I need to. I need to perform this 18 minutes perfectly. This is not just showing up in a fireside chat and hanging out with Jim and Gerhard. I mean, I can talk all day about bravery. So I had that panic moment and I just kept rehearsing and practicing and recording and practicing. And it's one of those things in sales we think of like, oh, I don't want to roleplay. I don't want to do that. Like, you have to keep rehearsing. When you rehearse and you rehearse, you are going to become better and stronger. And then when you do it in front of the customer, you're going to be that much better. So. So if anyone wants to watch this, just see, like, I was really, really nervous. And then like Jim said, after the first couple minutes or maybe like 30 seconds, I calmed down a little bit. So. So the TEDx was a smaller audience. This is me, what I do for organizations. I spe to organizations. I do keynotes on the science of bravery, of overcoming fears. I do workshops. This audience here was about 800 people. The TEDx was only a couple hundred. But I was so much more nervous for the TEDx.

Yep. I did a TEDx in Florida. They gave me 12 minutes. I practiced and rehearsed with a coach. And I've given 3,500 convention speeches in my career. So, you know, being in front of people is no problem for me. But 12 minute TEDx talk. And I get down to Florida to give the talk, and they tell me, hey, we changed you to six minutes. No, no, no, no, no, no. This is the day before. And I said, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna show up. And they said, okay, you can have 10 minutes, but not a nanosecond more. I went to my room and did just what you did. I started rehearsing out loud, and I don't do that usually. And I went in that day and I was so worried about the time that I finished in 8 1/2 minutes, and I'd give myself about a 7 on a 1 to 10 scale. But my 7 as a professional speaker is better than a lot of people's 10.

Right.

And less than what it could have been. But still, it got 3 million views.

Wow. Yeah, that's amazing. And you know what? I wish I would have done this differently, but it's all about learning. So when I do another TEDx, the shorter ones perform a lot better. And I went all the way to the full 18 because I'm not very concise. So it's something I'm working on. So if I do another TedX, I'm going to keep it to 12 or under or maybe even 10.

Give me a call once you book it, give me a call. I'll walk you through that.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

This is wonderful.

Yeah, thank you.

We're skating mighty close to the edge here. We've. We've got a great way to cap it off.

I told you I wasn't concise. I'm sorry. I'm doing it again.

No, no, it's not you.

What advice do you have for sales leaders? The. I think one of the biggest fears that sales leaders experience that is actually expensive for them is letting go of a performer that shouldn't be on a payroll.

Yes, yes, I completely agree. You hold. You set a very, very high standard, and that can inspire and motivate a team. People think too. High standards like. No, that can inspire, motivate, team, and you do everything, everything you can to help people meet that standard. And if they cannot perform at the level that you expect, you need to work with it, help them get there and have a servant heart and do everything you help to help them get there. And if they're not performing that level, you're not doing them any favor to stay in that position if they're not meeting the standard. So I would say there's you. You're gonna have one of two things happen if you address the issue. They're either gonna meet the standard. I mean, think of me when I was back and I wasn't running like we addressed it, and I rise to the occasion. So that is a good thing. If someone rises to the occasion and you pour into them and help them do that. The second thing that may happen is if they don't, then you need to let them go. Because if someone isn't performing and meeting expectations, they actually are miserable because it's not fun to be in a role. And not able to perform at that level. So when you let them go and find a different career that maybe better leverages their skills and abilities because they take that negative energy home. So I've heard so many stories about people that have been let go and then found a different position and it was a good thing for them because they found something that better matched their skills.

And that's the thing. If you say to them this, this is not the right position for you. That's not a indictment of their weakness or anything like that. It's just saying we don't have a match. And if we don't have a match, you're going to be miserable and we're going to be critical. So let's find a way to get you happy.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

I want what's best for you. I really care about you. You're a great person. This may not be the right fit and allow them to go and, and help them find that next, you know, job of something that's better.

Awesome. Well, we went almost 10 minutes over for a good reason because we wanted to know more about the bravery effect. And I encourage everybody to have head over to Amazon and get the cop a copy of the book. It's also available on audio and you can watch her TEDx talk on YouTube and just dropped in the chat your email address if somebody wants to hire you as a speaker and do a keynote. Jill is going to over deliver and under promise.

Ah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I just, I love this discussion so I wish I could talk another hour with you too. But thank you for having me and thank you everyone for tuning in. And yeah, if you go to my website too, I have free stuff. There's. If people go to my website there's a free bravery assessment and a free bravery blueprint. So there's free stuff there. You can take it to your sales teams right away. So I just want people to stop running away from what they fear. They're going to be more successful, they're going to sell more and they're going to be happier. So let's collectively do this.

Yes. And one more quick question. What is your future research about? What's the topic?

It's still going to be about bravery. This one is written as a parable. This is like a one minute manager by Ken Blanchard or like a Lencioni's book on the five dysfunctions of a team. And I love the power of story. This next one is going to dive more into the science. So I'm going to let my inner nerd come out. So it's going to be more traditional. And I really want to dive into the neuroscience of bravery, the mechanism, so people can understand. Like, people don't want to go into the gym and work out, but if they realize, if they stress their muscles like you want to be buff, like, it's just a process. You do this continually, you're going to get there. So I want people to understand the mechanism because no one wants to be a coward.

There's a book, the power of Habit, Charles Duhig du h I g g that may be a good model for how you approach the subject. Because he talks about the neuroscience of habit.

Exactly. So, yeah, I want to do for bravery what do hig did for habits. And if I can follow in his footsteps, I think I'll be doing okay.

I think so. You already are.

Thank you, Jill.

All right.

Thank you, guys. Have a great day. Thanks for having me.