Fireside Chat: The Fastest Way to Revenue: How AI Conversation Training Gets Teams Customer-Ready

You know, my journey was, was, has been. It's been a long road to get to where we are today. You know, I started out as, you know, as an actor and my first venture into technology was building an acting machine so we could let people act together from phone to phone. And that actually kind of evolved into what we do here at practice. We came to market in 2020 with our first product and it was a conversation simulator that when I look back on it, it sort of feels like the VHS tape. We introduced that to create a psychologically safe place for learners to, on their phone, have these interactive conversations and follow a script and get on a best practice message through repetition. And we were really effective at actually training large numbers of salespeople on a shared, consistent message. But what we realized was it wasn't enough, it wasn't dynamic enough and it depended a lot on the managers, provide feedback and watch videos. We didn't realize how difficult that was or impossible it was. So we knew that it had to be fully automated and it had to be really, really lifelike. And so then AI came along and for the last two years we've been very, very, very immersed in conversational interactivity. With AI, I think we executed as well as anyone in the world. And, and it's constantly evolving. So our goal is to really help people get comfortable transferring knowledge into conversation. Because traditionally a lot of training programs really were about did you complete the training? But it wasn't about certification that you could execute on it. So that's kind of, that's the space where we live and we're hyperfocused just on conversational skill sets.

So as an actor, trained actor, you know that the difference between conveying emotions and, and logic in one sentence, if it's done right, the difference is between, it's the same between a lightning bug and real lightning.

Yeah, it is. And, and you know, so much of it, I think, starts with belief. And when we actually work with companies, we're very particular about the companies that we work with. So we're about as far from a product led motion as you can get. We're very consultative and we consider ourselves to be more AI or managed AI as a service. And we conduct a typical value sale. So when we come into a company, we want to make sure that we can identify a store of value that we can actually help them capture. And they've got to quantify it. And we, we really need to understand their sales process and where it's landing or where it's not. And on the training Side, if you're not providing training that is really value added to every single person on the front line, it falls flat. Because training is not monolithic. We're dealing with human beings and with personalities and conversation, which is very dynamic. And so we, we kind of start there with, let's make sure that the, the sale itself is compelling and is compelling to the people who conduct it. So they've got to believe in what they're selling. And, and so, yeah, so that's, that's where I think the, the closest parallel to acting. You better believe your choices as an actor. You better commit to them. So that's where it starts.

Yeah. Think about how Jack Nicholson in the courtroom scene where he stands up and say, you can't handle the truth.

Yeah.

And that brings me to the, to the two skills levels that actors know how to deliver. They know how to deliver performance. But in sales there's another level which is where it's, it's, it's the opposite of being expressive, which is the capacity to listen to your body as an instrument to your instincts and where you wait for the right moment to identify the opportunity that is going to be buried in the conversation somewhere and, and drag it out and get it out and become the, not the solicitor, but you elicit you, you get the customer to react to your genuine desire to uncover possibilities.

Exactly. And I, I think years ago I actually, I, I trademarked the term cue based selling. And if you're an actor, you're trained to, to live in the moment and to not be artificial and to be reactive to what you're seeing, what you're picking up, but you still have to adhere to a script. Selling is very similar. It's a craft. You're having an intentional conversation where the other party knows you have an agenda. But you really need to remain focused on that objective. And the objective ultimately should be to serve, I believe. And so you've got to be a good listener and look for those opportunities to respond in a way that gains trust and alignment towards hopefully serving them. And, and I think that's another foundational piece that salespeople can relax about what to say as long as they're, they're, they know why they're there. And it's, and it's to understand whether they're a fit or not.

Right. That's, that's what I taught in my classes. I said my goal is to help you impersonate a professional. Well, let's get practical. How does that fluency improvement work? What is the process? What Explain your secret sauce and the magic that comes when you interact with AI.

So where the process really starts is in the, is in our sale and making sure that we, we believe that our solution is the right fit for them to, to have an impact in the organization. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a combination of sort of deep, sort of deep research on, on the, the goal of any training that we do. So if it's a particular conversion that we're trying to improve, for example, maybe improve the rate, the success rate of their prospecting calls or the quality of their discovery conversations or they maybe they just need to work on all their objections. We'll go in and find out what their current state is and, and we'll take that content and typically we do a review on that with them and their thought leaders and then it goes into our system and typically the learners, and if, especially if they're new hires will start with some script based training, that best practice language, the right questions to ask, the right information to impart and through repetition they begin to get familiar with that language, the language of their company, the language of their industry, their role in the company. And once they've got some of that foundational long term sort of memory committed to that language, they go in and scrimmage with the AI. And we set the AI to be a customer of any company and very of various Personas and levels of resistance. And their goal is to sell the AI. And really where we first start is we'll go in and we'll put a fairly difficult AI in front of all their people because we want to get a baseline understanding of what is the current state of their conversational sales, conversation skill sets. And it's often really surprising because I think that conversation training is something that's been largely overlooked for a long time and it's been such because it's been almost impossible to do logistically at scale in a continuous basis. You know, most training programs have an ending, it's two weeks, two months and then you're out kind of sink or swim. And so conducting an ongoing learning process that, that, that actually integrates into the workday and doesn't, you know, really restrict them from doing their, their, their core job is critical. But what we found is a lot of companies are sending people out on the front lines without a weapon. It's like having a wonderful military and all the equipment in the world. You put people on the front lines and they don't have bullets or they don't have a rifle. And so we want to make sure that when they're there at the point of sale, they're prepared and they're confident and they're capable of executing that sale.

So there are two things that the U tool is doing. I checked it out and one is you can practice with the customer, but you also have simultaneously the capability to stop the practice and switch to coaching mode and ask the coach, what do I do next?

Yeah, so that's one thing we're going to demo today. I wish we could demo our whole system, but we don't. We don't really publicly demo our product. Looking forward to anybody who's interested to set up a demo with us and I'll show them what we're doing. We're also launching a brand new, incredibly modernized version of our entire system in about two months. But we'll demo today. And unfortunately we had to edit it down, but it was a longer conversation, but it was a little too detailed to show the whole thing. But it's just me conducting a typical value sale with an AI customer and then at a certain point being able to invoke the coach. So we've put two AIs inside the interactivity. We haven't seen that done before. I'm sure lots of people will do it eventually, but it's a multi agent conversation. And we're also training the AIs to be really specifically aware of the individual as well and have a context window to be able to assess them continuously over time and bring them along a learning curve. But yeah, what you'll see today is just, it's kind of a simple demonstration of it, but, but the ability to stop things and say, hey, wait a minute, how should I handle this situation? You know, strategically? And then tell me what I should say.

So yeah, let's roll the tape.

Let's do it.

Today. I'm Jesse Caldwell, the VP of Sales at Baker H Vac, your AI scrimmaging partner. Run a value selling discovery call, uncover my pain, quantify it with my numbers and build a CEO ready business case.

What prompted you to take this call in the first place?

I'll be honest, we've tried a lot of training tools over the years. Most of them end up collecting dust after a few months. So I'm open to digging in, but I'm going to need more than a product pitch.

Well, I'm glad to hear that because I did not want to give you a product pitch. I first want to understand if there's a sufficient enough problem that we can address successfully so we both win. I'd love to learn a lot, a little bit more about Baker H Vac, what your sales operations look like and really that cliche of what's the biggest challenge that keeps you up at night.

Honestly, getting new people productive. We're hiring all the time and every new guy is basically a net loss for the first month. What about you? How do you typically help organizations like mine?

First, I'd like to start out with your churn rate. Do you know what your churn rate is specifically?

It is pretty standard for the industry and has been creeping up.

Well, no, don't feel bad, right? We talked to a number of companies who actually, believe it or not, have far higher churn. So what's your current training look like for those new hires?

Current training is mostly ride alongs. After that we just put them in a truck and hope for the best.

Basically when a new hire is ramping for that first month, what does, what is the actual cost of the business to the business? Not just the training, but the revenue. They're not closing, do you know that?

I can tell you that during their ramp period, our new higher close rate is maybe one in five.

I think there's an opportunity to present a really a wonderful winning case to your CFO or your CEO. But it will really help to understand those numbers. What would be an experienced reps close rate?

Typically our experienced guys close north of 50%. It's a significant gap and honestly it's frustrating to see that disparity.

And I know you've been thinking a lot about this has got to affect you personally. So how does that that make you feel? I know it's gotta be frustrating. You mentioned it.

I pushed for that last training initiative, went to the board, made the case and it flopped. My credibility took a hit. So whenever we do next it has to work.

Let's do some quick math together and let's see if we can figure out how we can create a compelling business case. That's a really big number. It's about $149 million. That's we'd have the opportunity to claw back some of that.

That can't be right. How did you come up with the total number of reps that haven't churned? I want to make sure I'm following your logic, Coach.

Can you give me some advice here? Coach? How should I say this? Easily to her. First, acknowledge their concern and validate the need to ensure the numbers align. Next, walk through the math more slowly and clearly break it down step by step to avoid confusion. Then confirm each step of the math process with them before moving on. This will help build their confidence in the numbers and your credibility. Finally, encourage them to ask questions if they need further clarification. Jesse, my numbers. I did this a little bit yesterday and some more just now as we were talking. But let me walk you through the math that I went through and I'm curious, how long has this been going on?

I've never seen it laid out like that before. That's a number I've never put together before. This challenge has been creeping up for a while now. What are some common outcomes you've seen when you address this kind of gap?

Well, it starts with, of course, identifying where the problem is and quantifying the size of it. We've done that. That's really pretty much the story the math tells. So what we do is we like to go in and first of all, absolutely verify our numbers with the cfo. And that's why I want to take you in as the person who's identified this and let's make a great business case to Marcus for why we should address this and whether you use practice as your solution or someone else. Clearly this should be an urgent, urgent problem that you're addressing. So let's go ahead and end the role play. Could you provide some feedback for me?

Overall, you scored 6 out of 10. Discovery and paid identification. 2 out of 3. You uncovered surface pain about getting new hires productive and identified the core problem with turnover. However, it could have been stronger if you had pressed more on the personal impact and emotional stakes.

How should I do that differently?

You did touch on the emotional impact when you acknowledged how it must feel to have that pressure from the board. To strengthen that part of the conversation, you might consider asking more open ended questions that invite deeper sharing, quantification and collaborative math. Two out of three. You did a solid job of getting the prospects numbers and walking through the math collaboratively, which helped make the issue tangible. However, there were moments where you could have clarified your calculations with more back and forth dialogue. Cost of inaction. One out of two. You highlighted the urgency and the potential long term consequences of inaction.

Well, first of all, I think I did do that. I think I actually added it up and talked about how big that number was and how urgent it was regardless of whether you use practice. So I think you should change my score there. I think I should get two out of two.

You did effectively emphasize the urgency of the situation and the substantial financial impact if left unaddressed Your calculations led to a compelling case for action. I appreciate your perspective and I'll adjust that score to 2 out of 2 for the cost of an action section business case and close one out of two. You presented a clear ROI based on the numbers discussed, which is essential for getting buy in from the CEO. However, the next step could have been more explicitly defined instead of just ending the call. A more specific proposal for follow up or scheduling a meeting with Marcus would have strengthened your position. Overall, you did well and you clearly have a grasp of the value selling approach.

Awesome. Thanks.

So, Ed.

Yes.

What would you do differently after you have watched yourself here?

Well, I think we had the wrong voices in there. Our voices are really great. I'm not crazy about those voices, but what would I have done differently as a seller?

Yeah,

well, it was a much longer conversation, so we really kind of got deep into it. But I think I pretty much hit everything I needed to hit on the value selling side. And you know, it's really interesting when we take people through a process of assessing what kind of a cost it is to carry a large sales team and we do typically focus on large companies. We have high headcount, high churn. We specialize in onboarding, ramping new hires quickly because we want to get them fluent in the language of their sale as fast as we can. And there's no better way to do it than just putting, putting them on the spot and say, you know, get there. And our AI is really effective at that. But I, I think, I think the, the other thing I wanted to mention too is, is the key thing with what we do really is. Are you familiar with Kirkpatrick's four levels of training evaluation?

Did the learners engage in the learning and did they learn what they wanted to learn and did they apply it in the field? And did the successful application of what was learned and applied in the field result in the organization's desired outcome?

Correct. And then that is the map that we follow for everything we do and we engage with business. And the interesting thing is that getting people to engage with learning is really, it's tough. So engagement is the first hurdle. And that's why I think our mobile devices, we're a mobile first company, we're also on the web, but we've developed a really great mobile experience. It's at their fingertips wherever and whenever they need it. And that's really critical. And then. But what's interesting is how many companies never really get past stage two with maybe as many as 60% of their team and they don't, they don't really know what to say. And they're certainly not applying that in the field. And so when we can uncover that and improve that, it's a dramatic impact on revenue and in a short period of time. In fact, just recently, we did a pilot with a company where in 30 days time it was just 21 users, but now they're, they've licensed for 150. But on 21 users in 30 days, we increased the revenue by 51.7%.

Wow, that's astonishing.

Well, it's amazing when, when literally you can take somebody from being very unclear on how to navigate a sales conversation successfully to a conclusion and, and you just give them, you give them the answers to the test and you let them practice it. And the change in behavior is dramatic. And so that's where we start. We're dealing with human beings and we want to uplift them and change their behavior. That's also what I love about what we're doing with AI. We're not using AI to replace humans. We're using AI to make them better.

So when it comes to getting advice from the coach, can the sales rep access that at any time, like 20, 24, 7? If they wake up with an idea at 1 in the morning, then ask the coach and what will be the best answer?

Yeah, we think of the coach as a mentor. The coach can actually talk to them about the mindset. You know, how are they feeling? You know, I think when going back to that question of whether your salespeople believe in what they're selling, we can't forget that they're human beings. They have lives, they have, they have struggles at home, whatever. Mindset is a really important part. So the coach can be there for them for that, for any information they need that might be in their lms. So we want to make the coach more of a virtual manager. The biggest thing that I think we've learned over the years, because we were kind of pioneers in the conversation, training space and the digital side of it, and we learned a lot. We, I think, went into it as technologists, assuming we knew enough about sales and human beings and sales organizations. We're solving a human problem. And the challenge of actually getting people to come on board and engage with it is really critical. So that's kind of how we approach things.

Well, what have you learned by talking to your customers? What part of the sale is more challenging than others? Obviously, handling objections is something really big. But what is something that your successful customers have told you? What have you learned from them that we can share with the audience here what the investment in improvement is going to pay or pick.

That's a great question. I just think a lot of it's in the detail. And I think we really run a very consultative practice. We provide a lot of service. And I can give you a good example. You know, we work with a lot of service companies and training technicians who are not salespeople, but training them how to upsell something is very difficult. They're very resistant to selling anything, but yet they're the ones who interface most commonly with the customer, and they're the ones who are more trusted by the customer, and they're the ones who understand the property and they're almost more aligned with the customer. But they don't want to sell them anything, especially not anything that they don't want or need. And so if you want to encourage a technician to be a better communicator and a better servicer to the customer, you want them to feel free to share their expert observations and make recommendations, well, that's an upsell, but it's got to be, it's got, if you want to encourage them to do that more, that language has to be crafted in technician speak, not in sales speak. And I think it's that level of detail that we focus on to make sure that the learning itself is embraced by the learners and that it can be actually executed by them in a. In a confident, natural way and they understand the why behind it. So that's, that's, that's our ethic is we stay really focused on that at the individual level.

How do you tease out those language nuances out of the AI tool?

That's our secret sauce. I don't talk about that. We have, we have a lot going on in our orchestration layer, and it's getting better and better all the time. The AI is just kind of blowing me away. And I know we're all living in this world of the SAS apocalypse. I don't know where it's going. I don't know if we're going to be obsolete in a couple of years, but for right now, what we're doing and the way we do it is really exciting, and it'll be great to see how much farther it evolves because it's moving fast. But it's, but each, each month we have some type of a breakthrough in terms of the capabilities and the really sort of lifelike, human, like, conversational interactions that you can have with an AI.

So when it comes to the Analysis. You analyze words, you analyze speech patterns. Do you also analyze the tone of voice?

Yes.

How does that work?

We have a system that does emotion detection and, and it's, it's still, I would say still in its, in its early stages. It's, it's getting better and it's getting better fairly quickly. The thing that we're going to be doing probably next is, is real time facial detection and analysis. You know, you can learn a lot from watching people's body language and their facial expressions. You know, and I think when, whenever I watch, you know, as an actor, whenever I, you know, I would watch back something I do, I would just cringe because, like, oh God, I'm terrible. I, I need to change this or that. And a lot of times people don't see themselves when they're in front of a, you know, a spontaneous conversation. And I think it can be really helpful to provide that mirror and also provide some, some guidance on how they might adjust things.

So what is the feedback on the tone of voice? What does that sound like?

Well, when we are having the coach and the, and the AI customer in the, in the roleplay together, the coach can often even ask the AI customer, how did that make you feel? Did you feel annoyed? Were you frustrated? Did you feel heard? So we're really, you know, AI is still responding based off of transcribed text. Right. It doesn't feel anything, but it understands the idea of feeling. And so that's sort of where we are now. I do think that's going to evolve, but, but I think it's, it's really kind of did. And then as far as how the salesperson performed, were they, did they rush things? Were they, were they authentic? It can actually sort of assess whether you're authentic or not or whether it felt to them whether it had some credibility to it. So, but I think that's very much something that will continue to, to, as I say, evolve.

How does the AI catch when the salesperson is talking over the customer?

Yeah, that doesn't really happen because the AI, the AI does not. It's, we're training the AI to interrupt right now, which is actually really difficult, believe it or not. But there is, there is this sort of. The AI checks for the conclusion of an utterance and then, and then we'll step in. So there's no overlap, really. And if I start to overlap. Well, actually I interrupt the AI all the time and they'll stop because I love arguing with it. And I think that that's another thing that's really Kind of great for the learners is to have that level of comfort and combativeness, even when you're going through your assessment phase. You know, we're really detailed when we apply these scoring rubrics to these conversational sessions. So those evolve as well through lots of interaction.

Yeah, I noticed that you negotiated for a better score.

I know. Well, you know, hey, you're in sales. You. You should.

You're competitive. You want to win.

That's right.

So how long does it take to change a behavior? Let's say a salesperson has problems with price objections and handling stalls. How long, how often does the salesperson need to repeat that before their behavior actually changes?

That's a great question. I think it's a lot more difficult with a tenured rep because they typically have a way of doing things and it's locked in and they're prideful. That's why we really love to work with new hires, especially because we can actually really get them, I think, on a. On a. To a certain state of customer readiness very quickly. And I'd say we do that in, you know, two, three weeks at a decent skill level. But I think when it comes to other people and changing the way they do things, it does start with the why, the belief system. You know, typically in the past, a lot of salespeople didn't respect the stuff they got from the L and D group. Right. They, you know, it was. It was training, sales training that was delivered by someone who wasn't on the front lines in the fight. And. And so we try to craft everything with. With a strong awareness of what the best sellers in that company are doing and how that can be helpful to be shared with the others. So hopefully they have an open mind and they're open to learning new things and adding new, you know, new arrows to their quiver. But that's where I think the biggest thing is, is is embracing the new approach. And once they do, I think they can learn things very, very quickly.

Does it count for diverse dialects?

What's that?

Can it handle different dialects?

Yes. Oh, yeah. And we're. We're still very focused on North America, but we're able to support numerous languages. And so. But it. But we've. We've had. We've. We have developers really kind of in places all over the world. And it's funny, there we test against lots of different dialects, and it works just fine. So sometimes I think it understands them better than I do.

How do people get in touch with you?

Well, they go through our website, practice AI you can hit me up on LinkedIn and, and then obviously whatever, whatever connection we can have through selling power. So.

And I, I just dropped your email in the chat for the audience. If they want to reach out and get a, a demo personalized with you, they can email you.

Great. I'm always excited to share what we're doing and, and Garrett, I'm so thankful to have me on.

Yeah, you're very passionate about and, and never stop learning and that. I think that's the key differentiator that we all know we have the capacity to be better and do better, but we don't always take the time that it takes to make that learning step. And I, I know the reason why, because we all like to think that we better than, than we are.

Yeah.

We feel we don't need it. Yeah, you're, you're right about the more experienced sales rep not being very open to change, and I think that should be part of that program.

Yeah. You know, one of my favorite actors of all time was Robert Duvall, and sadly, he just passed away, but he was one who was constantly learning and he was at the top of his game and he never stopped learning and practicing and rehearsing and trying to find ways to get better. We named the company Practice very intentionally. You don't get better at anything without practice. And imagine a sports team, a football team that just went through training camp and then they never practiced again during the season. How well do you think they'd play on Sunday? Nick Saban said, We practice 100 hours a week for a one hour game. And that's why, you know, his teams were so great, because he was, he really emphasized the importance of the small things and, and the details. So hopefully those people who want to get better and make more money will. Will embrace what we're doing.

So I have an acronym for practice, and I'm, I'm using Claude. The P stands for prepare or for review, A for absorb, C for connect, T for test, I for iterate, and S for sustained.

That's awesome. I, I didn't write that down. You need to send that to me. But we'll, we'll use that. Our marketing. I like it spot on.

Thank you so much, Ed. You've been terrific. Every time we talk, I learned something new.

Well, gehard, I'm always learning from you, so thank you very much for having me on and we'll talk again soon.