The Agentic CRO: Science Fiction or Business Fact?

All right, great. Well thanks everyone. Thanks for having us here and great to have this conversation with this esteemed group of amazing people. I want to introduce them. First we have Jessica Robertson, who's the chief revenue officer of orb. Ross Green, who, yes he is a doctor, is the CRO of Custom AI Studio and Matt Darrow, who's the co founder and CEO of Even. And these are really incredibly smart people whom appreciate you all being here. Maybe each one of you can just give a little bit bit more about your background so everyone knows your what what's up and who you are and what you do. Go ahead, Jess, why don't you start?

Sure. My name is Jessica Robertson. As Warren said, I'm the CRO of orb. And apologies, you're going to have a little bit of a rough voice for me today. After four days at a conference, this is what you get. So I came up the very traditional way throughout the sales environment. Started out as an SDR 15 years ago. Have been in SaaS leadership for about 10 years now. So now working at Orb and focusing on how bring relationships back to the go to market processes.

Great. Matt, why don't you go next?

Thanks Warren. And hey everybody, Matt Darrow, co founder and CEO of Vivint here. Engineer by background, but spent 15 years in high enterprise B2B selling two different exits, Oracle acquisition and IPO at Zora. And for the last six years I've been building the AI teammate for sales. Raised 130 million from Salesforce, Excel and Menlo. And really fascinating to talk to CROs every day just to talk about the AI transformation that's happening in the market that we're helping drive too. So great to have me.

All right, great. And last certainly not least, Matt Ross, why don't you go, please.

Thanks, Warren. Yeah, a little bit different than Jess. Not as traditional. That's why I consider her such a good friend. She keeps me grounded. But I'm in your nose and throat doctor by training. I caught the AI bug several years ago when I co founded a company within the healthcare space using my MD to help veterans. And now I'm the CRO of Custom AI Studio, where in short, we're making AI employees through our agentic operating system. I'm looking forward to chatting a little bit more about my experience in that regard.

All right, well great, let's get started. So you know, we talk about this thing, this agentic AI, right? Or the agentic CRO. I hear this all the time. I think we're getting a bit closer for everybody understanding It, But I'd like to know what that really means in the context of revenue leadership. Like why is this idea of an agentic AI really important? And is it something that is tangible or is it still an idea? I'll just leave it open to whoever wants to answer.

Yeah, I'll break the ice here. Oh, no, go ahead.

Yeah, sure.

I was just going to say briefly the way that I consider AI, especially as a technology builder, it's a domain expert that's capable of doing work completely unprompted and that's what changes everything. And I think that's what's going to cascade into the rest of this conversation is we, whether or not you call it an agent, an AI, an AI agent, an AI team member, some sort of support system, if it doesn't have expertise that can help you do the full job end to end, that's how I consider it and that's what allows us to change these roles along the way. How about you, Ross, though?

Yeah, I think you took a lot of the words out of my mouth, which is great. Matt. I think just taking it one step back of what really an AI agent is not going to belabor the point. But an AI agent can sense that think and act. And so basically why we're using it is that we're trying to in the long run replicate human productivity. So for a CRO, at least in, in my opinion, and I think it's shared by others, being able to wrap my mind around data is incredibly important. Having it my at my fingertips and having data and knowing where it is and how to use it is very mundane work. It's very route kind of work that is not very complicated. It's in spreadsheets, it's in our CRM, it's at our fingertips. We just aren't able to access it because as humans it's hard to know where everything is. AI agents or AI in general makes that incredibly easier for the CRO to wrap their mind around what's happening in their business and allowing me to free up to actually do the things that I really mean it, that I want to do around strategy and figuring out how to grow my business instead of figuring out where the heck is this piece of data which we say work about work, which is such a drain on time.

And Jess, what's your thoughts on this?

Yeah, I mean, like the guys, I think it's about performing the activity right, not just informing you. So I think if I look at it in a broader state, I think a lot of people are still stuck on level one of AI usage in general. So fact or fiction? I think it depends on the person. I think the technology is evolving so rapidly that if you're not dedicated to learning and staying abreast on what's going on and the developments like in the ways that CROs can develop in, you know, work using AI, then you are still, it's a little bit fiction to you. And from speaking to a ton of revenue leaders, I think companies in general are still a little bit behind. So I think the idea of having a fully agentic CRO at a high level business operation is still a bit fiction because it's not widespread adoption yet. Now I think the technology is rapidly progressing and I think those CROs that are utilizing more of the agentic nature instead of just prompting in, you know, ChatGPT kind of, you know, information gathering, I think those are going to be the people who, you know, are there in the end with, you know, still being the human in the loop. Because I think that there is and will always be a place for super strategic revenue minds within a business. And I think that that is something that will be very hard in the long run to repl. But certainly like Ross said, you know, all of the information, the chaos that we need to consume as revenue leaders, we need to be very, very diligent about outsourcing that work to agents and focusing on where the strategy really is.

Yeah, it's good, good summary. Thank you. And I think that you said something which I think there's no doubt that we're sort of like in the beginning stages. And then there are these people whom I know all three of you are probably among them, whom somehow seem to have become proficient at using these things in ways that other people can't. How much of it in your view is really not just competency or skill, but also the products themselves? I mean, some of them just don't work right? I mean, they make a lot of promises and the onboarding process is really difficult, or they make mistakes, or they don't produce the results that they're promised, or there's ways in which the product is not designed to extract its value. I mean, how much of it can we attribute to early stage products that are probably in the market too soon between just people just not really understanding how to interact with them? I'm open that up to anybody.

Yeah, well, the statistic that comes to mind, it's something like 95% of AI solutions have not worked up till now. And I would say it's probably closer to 99%. Look, there was this incredible buzz around AI and AI agents that came out after ChatGPT's user interface came out so people could use ChatGPT. And that's most people's understanding of generative AI. And that's a really wonderful thing. They did a great thing to bring it out to the masses. But I think ultimately it was one of those things that with mass social media it's very easy to get the word out there, hey, I'm working on this, that and pushing the limits to things that literally couldn't be done. If anyone's telling you that there is a fully autonomous AI agent that's going to take care of everything and you don't need any humans, you, they're lying to you. I hear reports all around, there's a hospital in China that's being run completely by AI. That's nonsense. And I could go down the list about what's nonsensical and it honestly hurts the industry and the business and it hurts you guys, all of this misinformation. So really at the end of the day, going through and understanding who you can trust. So getting a trusted AI consultant who could then really walk you through what is capable today, what is capable tomorrow, and why today might be not the time to use AI. Maybe it is the time to use AI and then in the future what we're going to see. Being able to look at the past and where we are today, which is something I'm a huge fan of and I do a lot of writing, allows me and my company and those in my sphere to understand where the future is going to be. And that's really where a future looking company needs to be. It's the level set, hey, we're not there today. This is where we think we'll be tomorrow. And this is why we start here today, to then move forward and bring up bigger technologies in the future, be prepared today for what tomorrow is going to bring, but ultimately just to kind of encapsulate it, it's unfortunate there's been all this hype and buzz and I'm probably a big part of it. So, you know, take that for what it's worth. But with that said, there are real solutions that are out there. You just need to understand which ones are the right ones. And as, as Warren said, and I've said this with Warren before, there are not a ton of companies that really are pushing the limits and most are just sticking tools on top of their ecosystem like Google and Zoom just to keep you sticky and stuck in within their ecosystem. The real solutions I pushing towards autonomy kind of outside the bigger companies. And that's a little bit harder for those smaller companies to, to gain some traction.

What do you think about. Oh, sorry, sorry. No, no, please put the onus back on the CROs a little bit as well. We have not done a good job of defining what the objective is. We say we want AI. I love, I kind of giggle in the background when somebody says this because it's like, okay, cool, everybody wants AI, but what does it mean? Right? I think so many people don't even understand that to start with. But then what is the board level objective that you can latch on to? What is the problem that you're solving? What is the aim? And from working a lot with Ross to, you know, start developing our, our own agents at Orb, it's like, what is the blueprint for what you hope to achieve? What are the goals? And I think about this a lot, like developing a new salesperson. What are the KPIs of that salesperson? What are the actions that that salesperson do in order to achieve those goals? And what does success look like? And I think we need to take ownership of, yes, there's a lot of misinformation out there, but we also need to come with our goals in mind and not just say, I need to buy AI tools because now I have a budget for it. But what am I hoping to achieve and what are the, the objectives that I can go out and source a tool for? And then you need your consultant to guide you through and say, yes, this is, you know, actually possible or no, this isn't possible. But I think we as leaders need to take ownership of that as well. Is that we kind of out of hand just buying cool things, Cool things that looked like they might work or seemed like kind of Jetsons era. I'm dating myself a bit here. But this is the idea is I think we jumped on the cool factor too far, too far, too fast and forgot to develop the objectives that we would have done with such rigor in any other decision. And we need to meld those two worlds together now.

Matt, what do you think?

Yeah, I want to jump in on a couple things. First of all, Ross, I hear you on the 95% MIT study reference, but when you dig under the covers, it's not because the tech doesn't work. It's because the deployments fail because of an enablement. And that's a little bit different. But I do want to hit the question around why does it feel like there's not a lot of traction? I think unfortunately where people look to AI solutions first are incumbents. And what happens is the incumbents were built 20 years ago on SaaS platforms and that's why it's not working. And I think the CRO is in an incredibly difficult spot because they've inked very large multi year agreements with technologies that they've known and they've trusted for the last 10 to 15 years. And they look there first and they say, well, if incumbent X can't deliver this for me, how could other company Y possibly have this solved? And I think that's a really big tension on what they can explore that gets into your points. Jess around why are we exploring this to begin with and what's the state that you're going to drive to? Because I would consider the CRO it has, you have the hardest role in the organization for AI transformation because it's not just a you thing. And the example I'll give there is when I look at my engineering organization, Cursor is a huge transformation. I'm an engineer, I'm writing code, it's changing my day to day operations but at the end of the day I'm spitting out code that gets developed in the product. The 0 is very different. The internal U transformation is sure it changes potentially how you know, I forecast my world or I territory plan some of the examples that you were mentioning, Ross. But the bigger consequence is it's changing how your customer is expecting to buy from you. So the question you should ask is when the customer prefers to go to your AI first, are you prepared for that future? And most CROs are not. They haven't thought that far ahead. They're stuck in let's do account planning, let's automate a forecast. But they haven't wrapped around their head that says large swaths of my sales team. AI will be the sales team whether or not we like it or not. This is the demographic shift that's coming up out of college. And sure, Gerhardt's point about Marc Benioff closing an $86 million deal with General Motors, okay, that's not going to be AI only, but the 12 person IBM sales team that normally comes on a sales call in the enterprise, that'll be a three person team in the future and your commercial organization is going to be completely AI.

Well, let's talk about CROs, Matt, because it's really important to bring that up because they do have a unique role. Certainly I think what's becoming A far more complicated role. It already was complicated given the scope of the go to market teams they oversee and the level of oversight they have over the data they have to manage and all the different processes and the alignment. And now they throw this new thing in the mix which is now these new tools that they're trying to learn and adopt and push out to their team and the boards that they work for are demanding that they have an AI strategy and they don't. So, you know, I'm curious, like what's the way in which a CRO today should be looking at this? What's the most practical? Because you, you mentioned something interesting. So most of these, these guys who I work with in my clients, they've, you're correct, they have all these legacy tools they work with. They have these big huge platforms that they adopt just because that's just the way it is. Everyone, you know, pushes these things forward and they're using them and they all integrate AI into them and they have a belief understandably that these people must be experts. They got a lot of money, they have huge resources, they're brilliant, they create these amazing things. They must be the ones who are likely going to be at the forefront of these new AI platforms, which I agree with you. It doesn't necessarily true. In fact, it may in fact be the thing where they won't be. How much of it is it? Is it for a CRO, the issue of inertia, of change, or is it just a misperception of where the expertise lies? Where do you think that's really the issue? Because I think honestly it has a lot more to do with zeros being stuck in a paradigm and not knowing how to move out of it as opposed to like understanding how to do that. I'm open up anybody.

So I saw you pop off mute. You want to go first?

No, it's okay. I was, I was just clearing my voice. But I think, I think it's a fine line there, Warren. And I don't know that it's all one sided. You know, like everybody all lives in one boat of they have clear expectations on what they want to do. But the way that I've kind of approached the agentic or approaching building agents for what we're doing today is I'm looking for where would I want to be, but I don't have time to be there. Where do I. Does my expertise in my experience lend value to the company where I can't put time and effort there because of all of the things that we have to do right? There's no executive in any company that lives in closer to the chaos or the opportunity than the CRO. Right? So how do you manipulate your ability to be more places? So Ross and I have been working to develop for us like an in call analysis. And I'm not just talking about the recorders that show up to your, you know, your meetings and give you three bullet points in the end that you can draft a nice email off of. But what are the things that we can actually analyze from the call that are happening that allow me to act in all of the right places? So I'm still very much human in the loop on our agentic motion because I want it to be led by our strategy and where we want to be in the future. And the future for, you know, startups today are like a month, six months out. We're not talking five year plans here. So I think that CROs need to adjust their mindsets to, and I, and I agree with Matt that the, that the sales force is going to be largely agentic in the future, but we're not 100% there yet. The technology and our ability to adopt that technology or even deploy or enable that technology is quite low at the moment. So right now I think as tangible steps it's where can you gain efficiency by using AI that is directly correlated to a board level initiative. And I'm not talking a board level initiative of we need to have more AI. I'm talking a board level initiative of we need to grow this business segment by 20% this year without increasing our costs. That's a board level initiative, right? A particular segment of your business needs to have growth that affects cash and all of these things in the downflow. But we need to do it without increasing our costs. So how are we going to do that? How are we going to deploy more resources there that make us efficient without spending more money? I think that's the analysis we need to be doing is looking at our OKRs and determining through those OKRs, where do we have inefficiencies that AI is primed and ready to take it and then pick the right partners. And I think that's like we have so much opportunity in the CRO world to, because our positions have largely been monotonous, repetitive tasks that AI can and should take those positions over. And I'm certainly not of one that, you know, we're not going to have any humans. But I am of the same opinion as Matt that those 12 person teams are going to, you know, supported by 12 agents and two people or something like that. So I think this is where we should be looking at it. But again, as you said Warren, bite sized pieces. Figure out where you're spending the most time and execute there first.

I was going to throw in two Warren about like our zeros stuck. I don't, I don't necessarily think so. Like I think, I think if they take the normal tact of that, there's somewhat of like, hey, I'm stuck because I've got contracts that you know, that I've already paid for. I need to look at this stuff. But I would look from like a CEO and a board chair. Nearly everybody that I've talked to in my network or VC partners, they kind of have carte blanche to like rethink a lot of this. And even when you hire talent, like every salesperson that a sales leader is going to be hiring is going to come to Jess and say, Jess, like what is your strategy for me that helps me be productive, make me more money. So the pressure is pushing up against them and I think that's a really, really good thing. And I'll end with and turn over to Ross. But like Jess, I love your point about like define the strategy too. And I'll give this like first and second order consequence analogy here for like what a zero could be going through. Like the first order strategy alignment might be, yes, not AI is cool, but I'm trying to raise dollar output per head. That's so much of like the productivity conversation that's coming down and you can do that in a variety of places across the funnel. But the second order consequence was and I just want to like pull you guys in the future a little bit, imagine certain segments of your market could be 90% serviced by AI. Or the example that we gave that a 12 person backup, the best enterprise sales team was only three people strong. The second order consequence of this massive cost reduction is your competitor can outmaneuver you in a variety of new ways. They can use that capital to build better product. They can take that capital to give better customer service. They can take that capital to dramatically lower their price points. So like by not figuring out where do you need to be a few years from now that you're like, if you're just stuck in. I do task A today, so how can I help me do task B a little bit better in the future? You're, you're, you're, it's, you're going to be sort of left behind very quickly.

Well, let's get into that A bit. I'm sorry, who you want to jump in there? I don't want to know.

Nope. I think they.

Let's get more tactical. I think it's. This is great. So, okay, so I'm a CRO. I get the job. It's a, you know, 50 million revenue business. You know, it's a SaaS business, repeat of revenue software company, it's board backed. I'm asked what's my AI strategy? What are the first things a CRO needs to do when they come in and sit down in that seat and make decisions that are going to be immediately impactful without overstressing, but also do some experimentation where they can try things. So there's a balance between, all right, I can show ROI but also have some playroom to see what works and what doesn't work. What would be like your high level guidance for someone who's listening to this right now is in that situation.

So part of this becomes what the CRO challenge is. So I don't want to answer your question with a question, but like when the three domains come in, it's like normally, like I'll say like ramp, booster, normalized. I think of those three things, like if I'm a CRO walking into a $50 million SaaS business, did it go through hypergrowth in one year? Has it been around for 10 years? These dynamics are going to be there, but I'm normally going to say, hey, I have an initiative for revenue growth. So I have this whole notion of incoming new folks that need to go hit the ground running and ramp up faster. That's very, very different than say normalized, where maybe I have an east coast and a west coast region. One's underperforming, one's over performing. And then the normalized state would be, well, I actually have a really great organization. I just want them to do more. And I think when you look at each one of those buckets, that's going to help you guide and determine where AI could help you along that journey by figuring out sort of what some of these slots go toward. Now I'll shut up because I've been talking too much. And Ross, I'll let you go because I think I stomped on you there. But that's how I would first, like, what tranche am I in before I start to solve the problem?

Yeah, that's awesome, Matt. No, no, and thank you. That's great. A lot of great thoughts there. I think at the end of it's all about staying human centered. And for whether that's internally at the company that I'm coming into to advise or externally about who our customers are. So those are kind of two separate things. Internally, I want to understand who's in the business, what's the culture of the business, where are the pain points, where are the bottlenecks, and where are things that they've tried, what have they failed on, and what their ultimate goals are. And again, keeping humans really at the forefront of that. And you know, in an ideal world, being able to analyze each and every department and saying, these are the people that are really good at this side of marketing, or let's go to sales, these people are really good at this side. And then implementing AI that maximizes that potential and brings the kind of lower hanging fruit of the folks who maybe not be performing as well, bring them up to the higher standard and then have the elite users or workers go through the roof. I think at the end of the day, it's also about really sitting down and listening not just to the internal voices, but who are the external voices, who are your buyers? So what I love about AI more than anything is that it allows me to and it frees me up. Orb is a great example. It frees me up to know who's in my network so I don't have to worry too much about getting introductions. I can use Orb and Orb allows me to see who is in my network of relationships and allows me to get in with them. But AI on top of that. So once I know who is in the sphere of the customer that I'm working with and I could have those references and say, hey, do you know? So. So I. It also allows me to just listen to the client. And that's the same as whether I'm listening internally to the board. Hey, what are your pain points? But it helps me listen to the client so I don't have to. I have my recording ready to go. I just listen. I don't talk a lot during sales meetings because all I want to do is hear what the customer is telling me. And AI makes my job tremendously easier to that I could just kind of fluidly have a conversation with someone, ask the questions that I want, and I don't feel like I have to memorize everything. I'm not jotting down notes, it's not awkward. And at the end of the conversation, I can consume what they're discussing with me. Because this is the same in medicine as it is in anything. I like to make a lot of parallels because at the end of the day, medicine is A really important part of my life. The patient will always tell you the diagnosis. They don't have the verbiage to tell you. They don't know the nomenclature. But they'll tell you what the issue is. So will your client. Your client will tell you exactly what the problem is. You just need to decode it for them because they don't have the, the. They don't have the knowledge base that perhaps hopefully I do within the AI space.

Any other thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, I think, when. At the risk of sounding a little bit like a broken record here, I think it's a combination of what Matt and Ross and we were saying previously is that there's goals that the company. If somebody asks you what your AI plan is, the first thing I'm going to ask is, okay, what are our company objectives as a company? What are we trying to achieve? Are we trying to become more efficient? Are we trying to grow faster? I loved your three words. I need to write them down. Matt, can you, can you repeat for. For the people that have goldfish brains.

Like me, that was a ramp, boost and normalize.

Yeah, ramp, boost and normalize. So I would try to stick each one of your OKRs in one of those three groups, right? Like, and then I would say, okay, underneath that okr, it's a mix of what Ross was saying. Where do we have problems with achieving that goal? And then I would look at the first team, right? How do you or your dependencies rely on the product? How do you or your dependencies rely on the CFO or the cash that's available or the resources that available? And I would map each one of those OKRs to the ownership team or the first team that should be involved in the implementation that has the resources required to it. And then only then would I start looking for solutions to fix with my partner, with my business partner in this journey. Fix the solutions to the problems that we've established that fit those okrs. And I think when you work top down in this way and then you build bottom up, you end up in the middle with that really smooth plan that's fit into an okr that's properly resourced, that has business partner fundamental support from every angle. That way you're not running in and, you know, banging your head against the wall trying to implement something when your rev ops team or your finance team may not be in support of it and you may not have the goals and it's not attached to a board level okr. So I think working down first and being patient and not just saying. I think the worst sign of this could be, okay, my AI strategy is this, this, this, this, and this. Because this is what I learned on the Internet last week. That's just setting yourself up for failure in so many ways. So I think you got to work down and then build the solution.

It's good stuff. I get it. I like the analysis. I think that that's probably what's missing a lot, frankly, is I don't know if there is a proper analysis process for CROs to take on and ask the right questions and know how to navigate the thinking. And maybe they're barraged with too many requests, they don't know which ones to answer. You need to sort of come in with your own plan of how to do it. But I see here we're getting to wrap. We only have about three minutes or so here. Someone asked this question, which is, how do you transform spreadsheet based leaders into human based leaders? I don't know if we can answer that. Two minutes. It's a really good question, but we do need to kind of have Gerhard jump back in and take over. And if we have time for any questions or not, Trish, let me know.

Well, thank you. Thank you. Those answers are really, really insightful. And I don't know whether to ask this or not, but I. I'd love to hear from you. What is the role of the external consultant in all of this? Because there is so much conflicting information floating in the ether. When I look at the top 10 consulting companies, starting with McKinsey and Ernst and Young and Forrester, the there is no alignment in their opinion. So how does a CEO approach that? How do you find that right external partner?

I'll leave that to the external partners. To answer the question, what are your thoughts on this? How do they evaluate how to identify the right person to get the help with this? When everyone says they can do it.

I can take it a little. I think I would actually tend away from the bigger companies due to what Matt was saying earlier is that the innovation levels at those big companies are a little bit slower. So the way that I did it was I presented and by the way, I ended up working with Ross. So I presented my problem and I presented this is the OKR that I'm attached to is to grow my business exponentially in the next two years. And I need to do so by maximizing my power to be there and my power to understand how we can evolve and grow as a sales organization. And I presented kind of the bottlenecks And I worked down from that OKR with my partner and then I worked up from, with him from a solution. Okay, what can the technology actually do today? Where is it? Maybe not quite where I would want it to be, or maybe I'm dreaming a little too hard in some areas. And then in other areas I'm like undershooting it. So having somebody and I did it not just with Ross, but many, many people and I found the person that would really tell me that the technology is not there. And then when I went to learn about it myself, it conferred with that. So I think it's as much on the onus of the company providing the service. Of course, the companies must provide great service and good products in the end, but the, the leader has to own their ability to do their independent research and understand what the vendor is saying. In this kind of unknown world where everybody believes something different. Gerhard. Like it's. I got a bunch of different answers and then you go back and confirm yourself. So I, I would tend to go a little smaller here just because I think the ragtag groups are staying a little bit closer to launch. Right. Like every time a new version on one of these LLMs comes out, it changes the way and what's possible and all of these different things. So I think that that's the way that I've handled it. There is no right way, I'm guessing is the actual answer, but I think that that's a way to think through the process.

So what, you apply critical thinking and also you allow yourself to be guided by your own instincts?

It always comes back to instinct.

It does, it does. I would agree, though I think I tend to believe this, frankly. I think that startups, intrepid companies, they're breaking rules, they're doing things. They're not encumbered by old adages and processes and large legacy complexity and bureaucracy. They're not also trying to plug a bunch of different things on top of older models. They're coming out with something new. I think that everyone would agree that today you're looking at the intrepid, like startup people who are the ones that are probably going to be more disruptive and have smarter ideas. Now, they may not have the infrastructure, but what's interesting about AI is that you don't need one as much. Right. I mean, it's a really interesting situation. It's not like you need like this massive team you could do a lot of with just a computer and a login. So I think that because of that it's giving a lot of these intrepid startups an incredible opportunity to overcome and be a lot smarter frankly than these big and there's a threat I mean I already working with somebody on this Gerhardt I'm launching a CRO AI course in October and there are ways that you can use these tools to get the same level of in depth analysis as McKinsey report from these things right now and they're incredible like really amazing the incredible amount of depth it will give you if you know how to use it properly and I think that's going to be a big threat. I think the world is going to sort of flip upside down for a little while and I'm, I'm very excited about it actually. So anyway I don't want to take up too much time. I know you have a lot more things to get to here but I want to thank all the people who joined. You're all great and we could have talked for three more hours I'm sure it would have been engaging. So again appreciate the opportunity and thanks everybody for being here.