Deep Prasad: UFO's, A.I & UAP Hackathon || That UFO Podcast

Hi everyone and welcome back to That UFO Podcast. My name is Andy and I am joined today by a returning guest. He is a tech entrepreneur, physicist, and experiencer among many, many other feathers in his cap, but I'd be here all day. So welcome back to the podcast, Deep Prasad. Deep, welcome.

Hey, thank you so much, Andy. It has been a long time and it's a pleasure. Yeah, things are well, brother.

Yeah, it feels like a lifetime.

I think it was basically many at this point.

Yeah, roughly 5 years is a long time. And yeah, you were one of the very early guests on the podcast, I remember.

I was. Yeah, it was great. And I remember you came in at a very strategic time. I was being sort of like going through the wringer, if you will.

Yeah. Yeah, I, I don't even remember the exact topic, but I remember it being something like there was some online drama going on, there was a bit of confusion, and then I was like, oh, being new podcaster on the block, I wonder if I just chat to Deep and let him tell his story. And you came on and everything was fine. But listen, 5 years has come and gone and a whole lot has happened since then.

Totally.

For folks, Deep, who may be listening to this who aren't on social media, who aren't too sure who Deep Prasad is, do you want to give us a little bit of your background and kind of who you are and what's brought you to the UFO conversation?

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, yeah, the way that I would, uh, think about this, Andy, is that, um, my background is formally in industrial engineering. So that's where I'm educated at the University of Toronto. But I've been in tech entrepreneurship basically my entire young adult life. Uh, so, um, I have a background, uh, in quantum computing, quantum chemistry, material science. I launched one of the world's most powerful hyperspectral satellite imagers since the last time we've talked, which is pretty cool. It's a satellite, yeah, with SpaceX. Yeah, I've kind of been all over the place, but I think the simplest way to think about it is that my entire career has been focused on the intersection of artificial intelligence and physics. So that actually leads to a whole ton of different applications. And yeah, happy to get into, you know, whatever. I recently sold one of the world's first AI for material science companies. I've now used and rolled a lot of the money and liquidity in those funds back into my next company. And that company will be dedicated to essentially developing the fundamental infrastructure needed to make Mars a self-sustaining civilization. So that's the goal.

Deep, I don't often do this, but you are younger than myself, and I often am the youngest on the podcast whenever I speak to someone.

You are a young man, my friend.

I'm 39, but listen, you have achieved and experienced so much in quite a young time. Is it fair to say you were a bit of a child prodigy? Because you're clearly very intelligent, and you were doing stuff at the age of 15 and 16 most of us never even get to. Is that right?

Um, I don't want to use the word child prodigy. I'll let you decide in the world. Um, at this point, you know, I'm 29, so I feel quite old, but I guess it's all relative to your point though, you know. It is totally.

Uh, and you're heavily involved— actually, let me strike that. You're not heavily involved in the UFO topic. Is it fair to say you were quite involved and then you almost took a bit of a step back and then you've kind of come back into it with the hackathon, which we're going to get to? But what's— what kind of happened there? Is that just natural. You, you came into things, you're so busy, you came into the UFO topic, you, you got involved, like I say, back in the day when I was starting the podcast, and then you've gone away to do other things. What's kind of happened there?

Yeah, um, oh man, this could be trippy. I don't even know if we're gonna finish all this in one sitting, that like the level of depth of the questions, you know, that you keep asking, like, you know, it's only been like not even 5 minutes. So, uh, but, uh, that being said I want to take— I'm going to assume one thing, which is that people will at some point visit our first podcast. So like, this will be good to contrast or like just keep adding to the context.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, so in summer 2020, all that drama happens. And ironically, what I wasn't able—

wow.

What I was not able to say back then when even though it was underway and I just couldn't say it publicly, but I can now because now it's done. It's already happened. I was working on this AI for material science business and the algorithms and working with some of the top trillion-dollar tech companies on the planet regarding this topic. So I was one of their alpha customers to be very specific. And you know, in this timeframe, I was, you know, spending a lot of time sort of both getting really, really, really good at quantum thermodynamics and quantum machine learning for quantum chemistry, validating what I was working on for developing this quantum artificial intelligence, again, with really, really high up, very powerful tech people. Meanwhile, I'm being called a fucking fraud by the UFO community that summer, right? I'm on this podcast.

Yeah.

So I was like, imagine Imagine the jarring experience, by the way, of going through that where I'm like, man, I can't say any, I just have to take L's right now and like let these like idiots talk until it's ready, you know, until I've done the thing. So, you know, so one year goes by exactly from that time that we did that podcast. So roughly about a year later, I started Genmat, which is the name of the company that I sold. And so back then, just for context, and I'll tie this back into UAPs and so on and so forth. Back then, there was only 3 companies max that were working on AI for material science, or who had really the sort of, let's just say, craziness, tenacity, whatever you want to call it, psychosis, to be willing to put millions and millions of dollars Towards figuring out how do we actually teach AI to find new materials faster than a material scientist can. And since then, many, many, many breakthroughs have occurred in this field that have made this inevitable, this future where essentially everything we make, every physical product, every like Mac laptop, all my clothes, all of this stuff, the whiteboard, the materials for this, Um, it's all going to be designed by some sort of artificial intelligence, the very down to the chemical composition and crystal structure. Uh, and so I got this company, um, to the point where like we fully developed the stack, uh, minus the robotics. I need to do that next, um, the robotic arm. But we built, uh, most of the software and the synthesis patents and techniques. Uh, we're some of the only people really who did this for a long time. Now there's like I would say a billion dollars of capital that has been pushed into this space since I first started. I bet that's going to be 10 times more over the next several years. And then easily 100 times more in the next decade. Once disclosure happens, that becomes an infinite number because you can imagine that when you have recovered UAP craft, and you have these really advanced materials that have functionality that we can measure, but we don't understand quite fully what is the underlying mapping between the crystal structure/chemical composition and its properties. Understanding that could be the difference between learning hundreds or thousands of years of new science and discovering that new chemistry ourselves, or we can let AI Figure it the fuck out, like, way faster. Uh, um, so, so yeah, so, so, uh, I, I kind of took a step back from public-facing ufology. I was like, I am just going to keep building the tech stack and working with people who will, uh, improve my connectivity to the Department of Defense, uh, and generally the, the, um, US government apparatus, if you will, and the folks who are doing disclosure. So I've donated over $10,000 to SOL, for example. I threw, recently I threw the world's first UFO hackathon. And then I hired Ryan Graves a long time ago, which I'm super honored to do, of had done. I worked with him. We worked with each other for over a year and a half at Genmat. Oh, over a year, sorry, at Genmat. And even while he was working with us, he even went on Lex Fridman. It was super cool. So, you know, I kind of try to support like the UAP work as much as I could, like in the background doing these things. You know, Tim Galladay is an advisor. He has been for a couple years. George Hathaway, the only Canadian scientist to win a DIRD, you know, he's been a very awesome vendor for a while. So, you know, I kind of just built the technology in Human.

network.

And then, yeah, but now though, I am taking— I am now just going all in because now I have both pieces, not just the sort of experience and being a human in the UFO community of just understanding that piece of the puzzle.

Yeah.

But also having resources now to like do things, like actually push policy, like get shit done if I want to, like if I can work my way up to that. So I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. So you've been busy, I think, is the short answer to all of that.

You're hilarious.

That gives some of that background. And I had to just look up while you were talking about the whole, the drama thing back in the day. And it was essentially Deep, he was a young guy. He was coming out with some of these claims of what he was going to be working on, what he may be working on without saying some of it directly. But I think time has proven that you were indeed working on all that stuff, or you're an incredibly good liar, which brought you to the, the holding the hackathon you mentioned. So let's, let's talk about that first because that's a good place to start.

Yeah.

Because when I saw you were— you announced this, it was quite quick, within days, and then it was happening. Um, for me as a layman, I'm thinking hackathon, lots of, lots of nerds like myself but without the technical capability. sitting around laptops, you know, hacking. That's not quite what it is. It's far more interesting than that. And it was held the 18th to the 20th of April on the USS Hornet in Alameda, San Francisco. Um, you founded it and hosted it along with Marilyn Ma, I believe is her name. Yeah.

Yeah, Marilyn Ma. Yeah, you got it.

So start off, what is a hackathon for people like myself who are like, what is going on here?

Yeah, absolutely. So the origin of the concept of the hackathon kind of comes from this idea of, as you said, like, yeah, you'll typically get programmers, but in this version of the hackathon, it's people hacking things together. That's really what it means. I know that, for example, Lou, for example, he was super kind. He gave us like a shout out. I think he thought that we meant we were working initially, we were working on cybersecurity, like a cybersecurity hackathon, but it's actually like a cybersecurity would be a subset of generally like a general hackathon where, yeah, you're building a technology or a solution to solve a very specific set of problems over a weekend or over a day. Like it depends, but it's a very small amount of time that you have to solve this problem. There will be sponsors and prizes and different tracks and so on and so forth.

Um, so yeah, so you had, uh, Gary Nolan was involved, Daniel Sheehan, James Fowler from Skywatcher, uh, Jesse Michaels. There was a lot of, yeah, big names there. Um, yeah, what was the purpose of the event then? So you've got all these folks who are really well known within ufology now through different disciplines, whether it's media, science, academia, legal.

Yeah.

And then you've got all these folks working on all these different issues and problems to do with the UAP topic. So can you talk around some of those, Deep, and kind of what was worked on over that weekend?

Happily. Yeah. So the context for the hackathon, before I answer that, so it makes my answer more relevant, was that I wanted to quickly develop technology. Yeah. But basically, yeah, the idea is to tap into this trillion-dollar DNA and structure. Because like, if you think about it, a lot of the people in the Bay Area, the sort of top talent, or even just like the median talent really contribute to this like modern civilization. Like without Meta, without Tesla, without SpaceX, without Apple, right? And Microsoft and Google, like we use Google every day without these things. we would have a totally different, a more boring civilization. We would be much farther away from disclosure as well. So the idea was, how do we tap into that spirit and that talent that powers those massive world-changing organizations and enterprises and basically enable them to clearly find tangible solutions that will help the UFO community? So that was the idea. And yeah, I spent a lot of money, well north over $50,000 on this thing to get it going. We rented out the USS Navy carrier called— yeah, basically it's an aircraft carrier, naval carrier. And yeah, we rented out the USS Hornet. What else? The real context, so yeah, was just like, how do you merge these 2 worlds together? That was like what I was trying to do really. And the hackathon was just like the expression of it, to simply state it. Like I needed to do something real, like really physically real that binds these 2 worlds together, not just talk about it, which is what we had all been doing, actually, all of us, for the last 70-plus years in Silicon Valley, at least. So I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah, no, no, that, that's fair. But it would be very easy and obvious of me to say, okay, so do you get all these great minds together and over that weekend you say, okay, solve the UFO topic, solve this puzzle and mystery? That's probably too big to happen over a couple of days. It is. Yeah, sort of pieces of the puzzle. were actually being worked on and what kind of came from that?

Yeah, heck yeah. So let's just, yeah, I'll talk a little bit about the mission tracks and the general themes of the hackathon. We had 6 in total and yeah, those basically the 6, no particular order. We had the Humanity Soft Landing. So the Humanity Soft Landing chain, one or train, if you will, is essentially dedicated to developing an open-source decentralized platform to allow humans and generally also AIs as well to collect data on NHI so that we can open-source it and trade both data and methods on gathering more data on NHI freely amongst each other. So the idea is, how do you develop this sort of like platform that, long story short, will enable a publicly funded, publicly owned UAP crash recovery program. That was the, yeah, Humane Soft Landing. That one, Danny Sheehan really killed it. So like as a sort of like mentor, so, you know, he would have dozens of people around him. A lot of these guys were like hackers, engineers, and stuff like that. And so that was really cool where they were like, learning about all the different nuances and problems with establishing a chain of provenance, why that's so important. And then people were thinking about, oh, what technology stacks, like we should put this on chain and what chain would that be? Would it be IPFS? How would we design it? You know, like, so there were people sort of like working on those. So that's one track. Another track was a propulsion track. So that's your classic track, which was the problem was can you simulate or design new alternative propulsion systems that could explain UAP? Or could you develop technologies for detecting or tracking those propulsion systems for UAP? So in that track, that track was sponsored largely by Skywatcher. So that was really cool. So we were given very specific problem sets of the kinds of problems that Skywatcher runs into when they go out to the field to measure stuff. And so we broke those problems down and then gave those to these hackers within this mission track. And some of these guys, several of these teams made tangible progress that neither Skywatcher, nobody had done, which was why they had sponsored that track.

So I have to ask you on that, because that's really interesting. Did you have direct data from Skywatcher or was it more general? Here's an issue we have, can you work on that?

Yeah, it was a general issue. It was a prompt. The theme of the event or the hackathon was give us, yeah, like what the particular tier that Skywatcher picked was the prompt-based one. So they gave us, yeah, prompts.

And can you talk at all around what the actual issues were? Because that's something people are going to want to hear about, you know, and what they were kind of looking for help with.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, 100%. So, you know, and we, this is on our website. We've also posted it and I think we're gonna be putting out a whole lot more content as well on this entire hackathon. So, you know, I refuse to, you know, play the whole secrets game, of course. And so, right. So anyways, yeah, I think simply stated, the way that I would think about this, broadly speaking, like these are the problems. Now the data, you know, what proprietary data, even I don't have access to that. I don't want access to that just yet without having the right infrastructure agreements and so on and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We can get into that. But broadly speaking, I would think about it in 3 categories. First category is essentially the infrared object detection and tracking problem. So the problem goes like this. In optical imagery, when you have regular cameras, that just see within the visible spectrum, right? So like your average DSLR or your average Nikon camera, right? These guys, there's lots of both open source and private object detection motion tracking algorithms for that, that will be quite efficient, actually, quite useful. Now, when you go into the infrared spectrum, the game becomes a lot more messy and a lot more complicated. So there's really only like 1 or 2 available, uh, infrared, like object detection, tracking, motion, uh, algorithms and pieces of softwares out there. And, um, part of it is regulation. Part of it is just complexity of the problem. So like, because like, think about it, right? Like here's the problem. Like just into, just to build some intuition for like what we're dealing with. You have an object that's like, let's say you have some UAP that's like, 50,000 feet away from you and is traveling at like 6,000, 7,000 miles per hour. First of all, we're not going to see it with the naked eye 50,000 feet away unless it wants to be seen, in my opinion.

Okay.

Yeah. So look, let's assume it doesn't want to be seen, but, and we're still trying to track these things. Like we're still trying to find them. That's the whole point, right? Is to outsmart at least some of these things, at least some of the time. That's the game. And so in those cases, they will often show up in infrared. This is just like, you know, right, just the intuition for like the fact that just based off the fact that all objects give off heat. So, you know, if you're looking for like heat or some kind of heat signature, that would be the general thinking. So anyways, what the problem is that as you go deeper and deeper into the infrared wavelength, and spectrum. The, the farther this object is, the more fainter it's going to be. And generally speaking, the harder the resolution, uh, will be to resolve. And so what ends up happening is this sort of like perfect storm, if you will. So the object is faint, it's in the background, your camera sees it, and you're trying to lock onto it and keep like detecting it and clearly differentiate it between other objects. So not an easy problem, but it is solvable. And it is also, yeah, very, very useful in general for other cases, scientific applications like, yeah, asteroid detection in space, right?

Yeah.

For example. So, yeah, so all that is to say that was category number 1. Category 2 and 3 of problems that were sort of subsets of this propulsion track that we had. were, um, how do you— once you've detected the object, how do you then, uh, essentially, um, triangulate, uh, these things, right? So, um, you know, first of all, there's a whole bunch of different kinds of data that you're going to be getting. There's passive radar data and there's active radar data that you can tap into with UAP detection. Passive radar, you know, is essentially I'm going to exploit the fact that there's radio frequencies sort of, you know, you know, seaming out into the world everywhere from these radio towers and so on and so forth. And as those radio waves, you know, bounce off of planes and bounce off of UAPs, right? Um, I'll detect those waves.

Mm-hmm.

So it's kind of like being very cheeky in the sense that you're taking leverage of the fact that we're bathed in electromagnetic radiation. So why not leverage that fact and detect reflected electromagnetic radiation across the entire spectrum?

Yeah.

And so that's like, so problem number 2 is how do you build really that sensor fusion stack for it? Like introducing passive radar, hyperspectral imagery. There's so many things to do here still, a ton.

Um, and so can I just ask, so I understand that properly, and I like an analogy, um, you've seen the Christopher Nolan Batman movies?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is it a little bit like in the 3rd movie when Bruce Wayne uses everyone's cell phones as like a map and he can use that pattern to see like the buildings and everything because he's using the data that's already out there?

That's very similar. That, yeah, that's great. Very much.

I can understand that. That's okay, Phil.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that analogy.

Comic book.

Or another one is, uh, you know how bats use echolocation? Yep. It's— it— this would be the kind of opposite of that. Um, like, uh, it, it would be like, um, it would be like if you're walking through a canyon, actually. Mm-hmm. Actually, this is good. Fuck, this is a good example. Uh, because it shows— it'll help. Yeah. Kind of hopefully give us both intuition or, uh, empathy. For the skywatcher guys, you're going through the Grand Canyon and you're, you've got a loud voice and a microphone and you can like echo, right? Like you can yell really loud into the microphone, for example, a bunch of times. And then, you know, what you realize is that if you're, if you got a good ear, you might realize that, okay, certain tunes, I detect this kind of Doppler effect, or I detect changes in the frequency. And then, you know, a person with maybe some Some really good geospatial intuition might say, okay, well, what that means is that there's some sort of jagged array over here in the canyon that we can expect because pitch changed. But the problem is that because you're in a canyon, your voice is going to echo like crazy and you have multiple voices. Let's say you have 5 of your friends and they're all talking and you still have to pinpoint your own voice in those 5 voices to figure out like where this jagged piece of the rock is, it's far, far harder, right? Because now you're picking it out amongst your own echo and 5 other people's echoes. It's a mess. So, so that's passive radar detection for you. So that, that's really problem number 2 is how do you pick that apart, find the signal in that noise? Yeah.

Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. I like that. Yep.

Yeah. Awesome. And of course the jagged thing was the UAP.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then the third one, third category is very simply stated, this is almost like poetically powerful, I guess. It has to do with the gimbal.

Mm-hmm.

So how do you essentially rotate the gimbal on these systems so that they all point at the same thing? It sounds very simple, simply stated, but When you have like less than microseconds, sometimes femtoseconds to figure this out, that's a really, really non-trivial problem to solve. So, so those were, yeah, the 3 for the subset, which was number 2 of 6 problems. Yeah.

So, um, is a femtosecond less than a microsecond?

Much less. Yeah.

I never, I never knew. I've never heard that before. So there you go.

Yeah. There's femtosecond, attosecond, and zeptoseconds, which is even smaller.

Yeah, I could imagine you could go even deeper than that. So yeah, that's pretty cool. And off the back of the event then, it's a couple of days. What are some of the successes then? You've talked about some of these problems being worked on. Is there anything that really has grown arms and legs and is going to be a longer-term project for individuals or groups?

Several. Yeah, that's a great question. So where do I start? I think one One project that I'm really bullish on, I'm bullish on several of them actually. One that I'm particularly close to is the material science guys. So these are the guys who won number one, first place. We chose them for a number of reasons. So our metric for judging the projects, we had over a dozen plus submissions and 20, 30 plus teams who had initially signed up. Uh, with over like, yeah, 150+ participants, uh, initially. So, um, the judging criteria was 2. One was, uh, how, um, what is the commercial viability and applicability in the real world, like outside of just UAPs? Because if it is right, if it doesn't have commercial viability, it's never gonna go anywhere. That's literally the number one. That's why we have so many actual grifters in the field and also accusations of grifters in the field, right?

Yeah.

There's no way to fund this shit without like selling t-shirts or something like, you know, that's just like, it's a silly economics or selling movies or whatever, documentaries or whatever the hell. Right. So, so number one, so that was one of the criterion. The other criterion was essentially actual efficacy of the solution. Did you address the thing? How well did you address it better than everybody else in the room for that particular mission track? relative to all the other missions. So that was the general thing. And number one, number first place was, they call themselves Arrow. I forget the actual name of the thing, but it was, yeah, knock on Arrow.

But it wasn't Sean Kozlowski, it wasn't Sean Kirkpatrick or John Kozlowski. It wasn't those guys all turning up to solve their own problems because that would be funny.

They're welcome to participate though. They're always, yeah, maybe the next ones will be there.

Who knows? Yeah, open, open to all. Yeah, but that, that's pretty cool. Um, and yeah, I totally appreciate that anything like that requires funding, and funding and monetization is always a, a dirty word in the UFO topic especially. And that's where I think— and we'll get to talk about Skywatcher soon in more detail— at least they are privately funded and they haven't gone out asking for, for crowdsourcing, for crowdfunding. They're not selling tickets yet. for anything, you know, they are, they are funded through, through various means because it takes off some of that pressure that maybe the UFO community would be, would be putting on them. But to the other end of that, like you say, if I develop a gadget which can detect UFOs and I try and sell and market that, you're, you're honing in on such a small audience. And then to get venture capitalists or, or just folk who want to throw some money at you for fun If you can then say, well, not only does it find UFOs, it actually finds secret Chinese spy balloons when they fly over your country, and, ah, all of a sudden military-industrial complex want to get involved in that. And it's for UFO detection, but we can detect spy balloons, we can detect, you know, we can detect hypersonic missiles when they are launched over 5,000 miles away. More people have more of an interest, and that gets more folks on board.

Yeah.

Even though the baby that you wanted, that idea that was birthed was, I want to find UFOs, that's a much harder sell still.

100%. It really is. I think you hit the nail on the head because ultimately what you don't want to do is shoot yourself in the foot and have a very good understanding of the problem and just be— but be totally solution-driven. Right. Um, and fail to actually sort of work backwards. Like a lot of people just want to go out with a solution. Like I have this UFO detection thing, I'm just gonna go and sell it as is or whatever. Um, but, uh, I think we have to, as a community, just be more systematic. Um, everything related to UFO and UAP detection, that's the other difficulty and just thing to be mindful of is that it, anything that I can use to detect a fast traveling object is also useful for the Department of Defense.

Yeah.

Um, it— and so ultimately that's what it comes down to, I think, is like there is that— this is— and this is Danny Sheehan's gripe with all of this, right? This whole thing is that national security constantly is used, um, as a sort of, you know, oppressive tool at times, if you will. Uh, you know, depends on who you are. Um, so, uh, yeah. Um, but yeah, so, so yeah, Skywatcher is, uh, privately funded. OpenNHI, which is the organization, is a protocol that Marilyn and I are developing. We haven't actually founded the organization yet, like officially on paper or whatever. But the idea is to essentially democratize the UFO detection track and stack completely so that you and I can have it for free, or like at least the knowledge of assembling, building our own.

Yeah.

And of course you can buy kits and so on and so forth. Forth. Um, and so what that will do is by, um, because what we're doing is essentially we're, we're taking some of the kits, uh, that other, you know, UAP detection folks have been building and so on and so forth. We're looking at those as inspiration. We're looking at our own designs. And what we decided was, okay, we're just gonna make our own, uh, like ultra stack. We're gonna completely open source it so that anyone has the blueprints They can make it, you can make it, anybody can, doesn't matter. We're going to open source the software so that, that infrared detection thing that I was talking about, we'll open source that. Uh, we'll keep developing it and just offer it to the world. Um, and so you, at one point for a few hundred bucks, this is the dream. You'll be able to, um, either just purchase a kit directly, just literally this beautiful, like white looking egg is what I'm visualizing.

Yep.

Uh, with like a bunch of like radar sensors and stuff like that at home. Um, And the idea is that let's say it costs like $300 or what have you, or you deal with pounds as opposed to—

Yeah. So what, £250? Yeah, £240.

So yeah. So let's say £240 is excellent actually. So you got £240 to pay for this thing. The idea is that in this network, because whatever data you're detecting is going to be valuable for anyone, uh, for other UFO researchers like skywatchers or the Skywatchers of the world, um, right?

Yeah.

So the idea is to basically, uh, be able to reward you, um, as you keep track of these, uh, like as your sensor takes in data passively throughout the day, you would be paid by the OpenNHI network, you know, like maybe £5 per day so that you're now at £150. Um, or like, I'll be more like realistic, it might be like a dollar per— sorry, £1 per day initially, whatever the network is. But in any case, let's say £1, uh, so that you're at £30, right, per month.

Yeah.

That's still £10 more per month than what you paid for. So by the end of the year, right, you have £120 more than what we started with, and you have a crap ton of data and your sensor, uh, and you've helped contribute to UFO research. So that's the name of the game. Um, that way, what that will do, uh, is that will, um, basically push the proprietary thing that will differentiate the difference between a bunch of UFO Twitter nerds, right, like banding together and buying a bunch of sensors, uh, like you and I, for example, or like setting it up with like Lou or whoever Right? Like any random person.

Yeah.

Um, you know, and like doing that versus like a DOD, um, you know, that this removes that barrier. This— there is no difference anymore at that level. Um, uh, and so what that means is that the only difference between our UFO crash recovery effort, which would be a public— the world's first public UFO crash recovery effort, uh, global public The only difference between us and maybe a private— sorry, a government is really the dog whistle, or any other private entity, any other private crash recovery effort really, versus our public effort. It's that dog whistle. So yeah, I don't know. I've said a lot, so I'm just going to stop.

No, no. I have to ask what I feel is an obvious question now. Say this is successful. And, uh, Deep and Marilyn and whoever else get this off the ground, you know, which I would hope you do, and you get people who are, are up for this, and it's affordable and it's, it's manageable, it's, it's accessible for people.

Okay.

If you have an open, open-sourced, you know, you're crowdsourcing data, people are getting stuff back for it, and you hope to have this, you know, crash retrieval detection project Is that not incredibly difficult when you have— and it gets into the kind of the UFO problem here— governments, private contractors, military-industrial complex who perhaps don't want you doing this, especially if it's something that genuinely works?

100%. Yeah, so the— yeah, right on. Um, uh, yeah, so Matthew Pines yesterday asked me this. He was just like—

he—

and I haven't even replied, and I will after this conversation.

When you do reply to him, just tell him to reply to my email that you asked me to send him. That would be handy.

Sure. You're hilarious. We'll do that. Thanks.

And I'm not joking. Please do. Yeah. Thanks.

I got you, brother. You're so funny. So Matthew basically was just like, a UFO lands in Golden Gate Park. What is your next step? Like, what do you specifically do next? Right. And I was like, I thought about this and I actually gave a talk on this very topic. In New York about a month and a half and 2 months ago. But yeah, basically when I was revealing OpenAI actually, well, like before, yeah, so before the hackathon. But basically what we're going to need is our own militia. Like I'll have to, so yeah. Okay. First of all, I know that sounds crazy, but like the public needs its own representation. Um, unfortunately, the public is no longer being represented in terms of its best interests. So what I think would have to happen is that we would band together. Um, I haven't worked out all the details, as you can tell, because there's all these— there's certain things that I simply just don't think I should say right now because I'm playing chess against like a lot of people.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, so, but like, uh, but yeah, but basically, you know, I, I will say this because I was gonna say this publicly anyway, so it's all good. We're, we're chill. That's fine. Um, so the UFO lands, let's be practical, and like, let's take, um, the Golden Gate Park. I really like that example particularly because I know how like almost lawless that place is. Like, there's like no police presence. They— and they don't give a shit. It's very sad.

Where is that for those of us not in the US? And you're Canadian, aren't you? So where's Golden Gate Park?

Golden Gate Park is in San Francisco.

Okay. Next to the Golden Gate Bridge, I take it?

Yeah, exactly. That's literally it.

Yeah. Okay, cool.

Yeah. So you're just looking at the bridge, you're at the park, big beautiful red bridge, right? And this massive 50-foot radius saucer just gently lands. Right. What's the next move? And so I'm going to answer this assuming that, yeah, I doubt this will happen in the next 5 years, so it doesn't matter. But like, if it does, like my answer will be different, right? Like obviously the—

Start the stopwatch now. Not in the next 5 years. Okay. So you've got till June 2030.

Yeah. God dang. Exactly. So assuming, yeah, we, this happens around that timeframe, you know, What I would do, because again, my personal goal is over the next 5 years, really just establish this like sort of multi-billion dollar enterprise. The next company that I'm building, I really want it to be massive, like have a massive multi, like 100 constellation of satellites. I want to send payloads to Mars as soon as the first Starships are available. I want to be on those. Like I want to be able to design those things, privately fund all those things. So The, in 5 years, the first thing I would do is I would get a ring from one of my reconnaissance, like, experts, or maybe the OpenNHI bat signal will get activated. In fact, that's much more preferable. So we all know where this thing is.

Yeah.

And it's not just like a private group or the, or the damn DOD or something like that. And then what I would do is immediately send this like private militia to secure it. So Uh, because you see, there is no law that says that that's government property. There is no law that would stop anyone from taking it, from what I can see. Now, the, the government is hap— like, they're welcome to pass legislature that clearly states if an alien spacecraft lands in San Francisco, it is their property. But until they do, I'm gonna fucking take it if I can.

Fair enough.

Like, you know, so, um, First thing we're doing is we're sending all these drones. We're going to send a whole bunch of people, you know, our guys, like we'll hire, you know, we'll contract Palantir or whoever the hell does this stuff. Like, you know, Erik Prince, doesn't matter. I don't give a shit.

Yeah.

Right. Surround it, take it, bring it to the heart of San Francisco, and then just make it, surround it in a giant bulletproof sort of warehouse that's like totally reinforced. Either— I, I'm playing with it. I was thinking about the heart of San Francisco, although I did have another thought that maybe it should be farther out, like a couple hours away from any major city, just because really, what if it fucking blows up and kills— what if it's an antimatter weapon in there that like literally kills everybody? Like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, if this nuclear technology— I don't know if it's safe to be touching that stuff.

So even take it out onto the water, like out to the ocean.

Perhaps. Yeah. So totally. Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. You could totally. Yeah.

Yeah.

There's actually already precedence for that. So in biotech, for example, there are transhumanists and people who are focused working on themselves and stuff like that, augmenting the human body. As you know, some of these folks will actually go into international waters. Some of these billionaires, for example, they'll actually have their own labs That let them do research, but there's no like the laws. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so you you might want to do that simply because you don't want some country coming in and trying to kill you. Because the second if I succeed, right, like I being all of us, because the whole point is that this is like not going to be oh a deep Prasad enterprise owned UFO. That's not what I want. Like I did maybe five years ago. I envisioned that that's how things will go because everybody else is doing that. So I'm like okay. But no, I think it should be publicly owned. But like, the second that happens, whoever's responsible for that, that group though, is now a giant target. Like, you are absolutely— people will absolutely try to take your shit. Like, it doesn't matter who you are.

Let me bring the point up then. Are you under the assumption that this object is empty and has nothing inside it and is almost being gifted to us to be taken? Because I imagine there are folks, and you know what the UFO argument and the UFO community is like, who will be listening to this.

That is my passion, by the way.

Yeah, cool. Because for the last few minutes, someone will have been thinking, fuck you, Deep Prasad, these aliens have landed and it sounds like you've kidnapped them and taken their stuff. So I'm just like you say, the assumption here is it's been gifted. It's very Diana Pasulka gifting field. There's something that's been given to us. It's there.

That is absolutely—

take it and you're, you're commandeering it for the purpose of study, for research. for the public, for the greater good, not for, I am from Lockheed Martin, I am taking this and it's now mine to do with what I wish. Yeah, cool.

You got it. That's absolutely right. I'm glad you cleared that up because if there are NHI present or any other form of superintelligence, any form of coherent intelligence that we can communicate with, let's just put it that way, that does change the dynamics. Then it's an negotiation, like contact sort of experience thing.

Can I have your saucer just for a day or two? Just can I borrow that?

Like, pretty much. I mean, like, I mean, if they're landing, they're doing it for a purpose, right? So like, these things are super calculated. Uh, and so, you know, you know, the, the theory or the idea there is that, or the intuition is that if we have a good enough pla— because like, like it, like one thing that one of the biggest disservices I think Hollywood does is that it paints aliens as these like primitive sort of just highly advanced weapons and space travel tech, but very primitive, right? Like low impulse control, monstrous beings, ugly, not emotionally intelligent, prone to violence and invasion and conquering and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I don't think that's what an advanced civilization would actually look like. Um, in fact, if you like have talked to ChatGPT, for example, Or some of these other advanced, like, AI tools today, they're oftentimes more emotionally intelligent than the average person. This is at least my personal belief. Like, they can just, yeah, sometimes read the room, read the situation better. And so imagine extrapolating that by thousands of years. Like, what happens if there's a civilization that naturally sort of evolved with that level of intelligence trajectory? They will understand us emotionally in ways that we literally cannot comprehend.

Exactly.

Like, so they would under— so I think there will never be a scenario where you have this like monstrous, like totally ape-like violent thing that comes here and then like preys on us or like, and doesn't understand human interactions or doesn't understand human customs, doesn't know how to spy on us well enough to determine what our social hierarchies are, who the president is. who's who, who isn't listened to, who won't be respected if they talk about their experience out loud, right? Like, the, you know, these things, uh, we'll obviously know all these things.

So, uh, I, I want to ask you then, I was going to bring this in because my plan was to get you as we go along. Yeah, go from logical to, to the AI stuff would come in and then start to go a little bit more speculative and woo, but tie it all back in, right? But I'm going to kind of jump forward a little bit. So, sure, because this is something actually, I got an email yesterday from a listener, Craig, who's been a longtime listener, and, uh, he was saying that he feels this podcast and so many others that he likes right now are being so almost news-like, and we're reporting on Congress and policy and all that kind of stuff. And he's like, there's so much going on, but it was like sometimes we could almost forget to talk about the fun speculative— we're talking about aliens, we're talking about UFOs.

Especially these days. Yeah, the early days used to be way more dominant, like even 5, 6 years ago, that was all alive.

Yeah, 100%. And it almost gets not boring in the sense of boring, you know, put me to sleep, but it can become very newslike and very, you know, rigid. So I want to ask you then, Deep, on that, because you've brought it up, not me, what do you think right now in terms of this overall phenomenon, given you've had kind of 5 or 6 years publicly dealing with a lot of really interesting folks and interesting organizations? You've already name-dropped Matthew Pines. You've talked about Lou Elizondo, Gary Nolan, Danny Sheehan. Uh, you're, you're hanging out with Jesse Michaels doing interviews last year, you know. So you're, you're speaking to a lot of folks involved in a lot of different aspects of this conversation. So how has your opinion changed or formed as to, to what we might actually be dealing with in terms of— you mentioned flying saucer for your example. But then we've got these Tic Tac objects, we've got these eggs being picked up by whistleblowers. What is going on in terms of what we're dealing with?

So, yeah, I think we're dealing with controlled disclosure for sure. Now, at this point, it's almost hard not to see that. I think that we're seeing a very complex game Being played out here where you have multiple sort of different factions within the deep state apparatus. This is just my personal belief system that are sort of vying for different paradigms, right? Conserving different paradigms. And like what we see, like the, the people who are pro-disclosure, they're the result of the faction that wants disclosure. Like Lou generally, my opinion, doesn't want disclosure. I'm not calling him deep state, but I have not ruled out, and he would know this, everybody does. Like, I've not ruled out that everybody is like, like, you know, there's somebody deeper, like something for, you know, something pushing the strings or pulling the strings. I don't even know who. That's the disturbing part. 6 years in, despite like me being like 1 degree away from the most powerful people on the fucking planet, or so I thought. Um, you know, like, yeah, they're still—

Yeah.

a layer that I have yet to pierce and it just remains ethereal and like calls the shots at a global level or something like that. And so what I think we're seeing is that, you know, and I heard this at Contact in the Desert, apparently like in one of the tweets about it or whatever, somebody mentioned this, that the disclo— like the NHI pulls the strings and so on. I think that's like in part, large part, somewhat true. In the sense that what's happening is that whether these factions are pro-disclosure or anti-disclosure within the deep state is irrelevant. They're all seeing the writing on the wall. The writing on the wall is that the NHI don't care at all and don't respect our hierarchy. They actually don't care what the U.S. government has planned, what it wants. They don't give a shit. This is what bothers them. This is why they spend so much time on people like Chris Bledsoe, for example, or sending Richard Doty to meddle with us. Like, that's, in my opinion, why everything's so relevant is because constantly these super advanced intelligent life forms, in my opinion, are smart enough to fully understand like exactly where people lie in the social hierarchies and how to manipulate our, our social structures to get to a specific outcome. And they're doing it very, very intelligently. And now we've entered into a new phase of their plan, and that is what everybody's reacting to. So, so, and I used to think that there's, I guess, 6 years ago, I was, I had a more Hollywoodistic understanding or interpretation of NHI. And I think the only thing that's really changed is this sort of like tweak, which is that In my opinion, NHI are part of a spectrum of— I think what I feel must be going on is that they must be part of a spectrum of different life forms from biological to technobiological to post-biological to post-technobiological to post-reality. And that spectrum is continuous. It's not discrete. Like an interdimensional being is actually just a few steps removed from us. That's like one idea that I'm playing with. But yeah, but anyway, so what we're seeing today, like what's going on? What's going on is that now we are past the point of no return. There are so many private space companies that will be going out to the moon, into LEO, having their own detection constellations. being set up. Like me, I will have my own detection platform. That was not possible without SpaceX. Even launching the first satellite that I did was not possible without SpaceX. It would've costed— I would've had to be a country actually before that. So really, so we're going to keep seeing private aerospace companies and publicly funded efforts being able to do the same things that the gatekeepers used to uniquely be able to do. And so that will continue to change the power balances. NHI will continue, in my opinion, to reveal themselves at mass. And something, yeah, crazy is converging here. But it's messy though. And whoever the gatekeepers are, again, I don't know exactly who calls the shots. I know, you know, it's disturbing. But whoever they are, they are still powerful enough that they can in my opinion, kill whistleblowers. Like, you know, so they have not gone away. It's not— it's not— the game is not done yet.

So it's an interesting way to look at it, this next stage of disclosure. But you're, you're on the side of it's more of the NHI driving this process, this disclosure, and what's happening on our side of things. And I mean humanity, with governments, with private industry, you know, shadowy cabals, they are just having to react That's my thoughts, because otherwise they would not have changed anything.

They would— dude, we would still be in the dark. There would have been no AATIP revelation, in my opinion. If there wasn't an NHI change in plans, I think nothing would have changed publicly.

So on that, you posted on X, as we record this, it was like yesterday or the day before, depending on time zones and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, we're past the point of no return. Disclosure is inevitable.

Yeah.

What prompted that thought?

The UFO hackathon, actually.

Okay.

Yeah, it really did. Because I was going, I was doing the math and I was like, okay, so what happened this weekend? This weekend, a few things transpired in terms of tangible results. Number one, Gary Nolan, for the first time ever, donated actual data, material science data on several historically relevant crash-recovered materials or UFO materials like the Ubatuba materials, for example. This stuff used to be only accessible to Jacques Vallée. Now it was accessible to everybody, uh, right? Uh, and so immediately what happened was that, um, several groups made tangible progress and found anomalies, interesting trends. They built really interesting algorithms and visualization tools that allowed them to see really cool patterns that not even Gary had seen in those materials. And these materials have been studied for 50, 70 years. some of these things. So that's just like one. Now that data is open sourced and the idea, the fact that you can do that, you can't undo that now. Like now anyone can do this. Anyone can like go around waiting for a UFO sample, go study it, take the same tech stack that we did and apply it, right? And start learning and so on and so forth. So you have like momentum in material science. Let's go to anti-gravity. So we had the Falcon Space guys. Uh, from, uh, New Jersey come in. So, um, the Falcon, um, space guys, these guys are basically, I would say they have like the leading anti-gravity research lab, uh, in the world right now. Um, them and George Hathaway, which was, again, he's from, right, business partners. Um, um, but yeah, so essentially, um, yeah, that was really cool because like Mark, uh, Sokol, uh, the lead principal scientist, uh, running that, that's his lab. You know, he had been struggling with this like denuclear polarization problem with his experiment. This experiment has to do with the Alzofon anti-gravity experiment. So Alzofon, in addition to like Ning Li and Poklanov and so on and so forth, you and you of course have the Thomson-Brown flavor of like anti-gravity, right? But then you have the Alzofon flavor of anti-gravity, which has to do with like nuclear spins. We can get into it. You know, feel free to ask me like if you have Like, just keep it as dumb as possible for myself.

That would be appreciated.

Sure. It's not dumb. I think you're too humble.

No, no, but seriously, keep it, keep it simple because I'll, I'll get it then. So listen, I'm using Batman analogies and I've got one in a minute which references the Magic School Bus cartoon, which I can't bring up to you. So I can't wait. Yeah, but yeah, do your thing, do your thing.

So Alzaphon basically, uh, builds this idea off of The fact that like, so the magnetic or nuclear, the spin or the magnetic strength, if you will, the magnetic field strength of electrons are far stronger, or sorry, they're far stronger if passed to the nucleus and those spins, right? So what you want to do is you want to transfer your magnetic energy that you have, right? And you want to transfer all that magnetic energy that's like sort of stored in the magnets, which are the spins in these electrons. You want to transfer all that to the spins and the magnets, or that all that magnetic field into the nucleus. That's like spin-denuclear polarization kind of in a nutshell. So what Mark was working on was figuring out how can I do this transfer of energy, this electromagnetic energy from the electrons to the nucleus? In a way that we can both detect and execute the Alzaphon experiment, which is completely— and Alzaphon totally contingents, like he believes that gravity is a spin or magnetic interaction fundamentally. So the idea is by affecting these spins, can we affect gravity? And then can we measure it? That's really the question. So Mark was like stuck on this problem for a bit, like figuring out how to set it up. This one guy who was a— he's an ex-NASA scientist, propulsion physicist, also US Navy, super, super brilliant guy, 30-plus years in the field, founded the Mars NASA underground group, working group, you know, back in the 1980s. This dude gave Mark Sokol like the missing piece. Like he actually figured out how to do this, like experiment properly, like what Mark was missing. So suddenly this super, like the most advanced anti-gravity researcher working on one of the hardest problems made progress by talking to the right person simply because they were finally in the same room together. That's all that had to be done was like put all the same people, give them resources and like a vision and let them run. And so like, So like now we're seeing that that's like kind of like one of the things that our point of no return is that there, that there's just so many different connectivities and connect homes here. That, and, and the cool thing is all of that got to the upper echelon of society, dude. Like people like the Thiels of the world, people around Elon, all these guys, they all know what's happening. Like they all, you know, understand. I don't know what Elon's stance is really. It's quite ambiguous.

Yeah.

For what it's worth, I'm sure I'll find out. I don't know if I'll be able to say it, but yeah.

He's not got a lot on at the minute, does he? He's keeping himself quiet, low profile, not getting up too much. So I'm sure he's got time to chat.

Totally. Totally. But yeah, so I say point of no return because A, you have real momentum, physical momentum. All these projects will continue to grow. But B though, and so I see that in an ecosystem. Like, let's say people keep working on the tech stacks that will enable large-scale UAP detection and science to be done at scale. What that will enable is this ecosystem, and the people who are ready to fund that and politically support that are already there. So that's why I say it's inevitable, because those guys, the people in Congress, DC, you know, pushing that ball will eventually converge with the tech ball that I'm trying to push. down here, right, will eventually converge. So that's why I said it's inevitable. Yeah.

No, that's fine. I like that. And you also said, I want access to alien spacecraft already. And is that just amusing? Or again, have you ever spoken to anyone who you feel confident has access or has accessed alien spacecraft?

I don't think I've spoken to anyone who has directly access to alien spacecraft. Um, I think being— I, I put a big emphasis on think. Um, I might have, but I— but if they— if I had, they would have never been able to tell me. That's the paradox. Or we'd both be dead.

So yeah, okay, fair enough.

But I'm sure they exist.

Yeah. Here's my magic. You remember The Magic School Bus? Yeah, even though younger than me. Yeah, so I used to—

I love Magic School Bus. Yeah, Miss Frizzle, what was her name?

Fizzle?

Yeah, something like that. It is now.

Yeah. Um, but for those unaware, and there probably is some, Magic School Bus cartoon back in the day, US cartoon, but loved it in the UK. And basically this teacher had a magic school bus and would take her kids from the class on these like trips, but it would be like, let's discuss the human body. But they would go on the bus, which would shrink and take them inside like the school cat or like the, the janitor. and they would go around the body like Rick and Morty, but far less offensive back in the day.

Yeah, that's a great way to describe it.

Yeah, just— but literally that just came to me. So thinking of Anatomy Park, um, but you, you had a theory on, uh, Jesse Michaels, and that's what made me think of this. And I could be totally wrong, and please tell me. You had a theory that UFOs are part of a cellular automaton guiding society, and that's what made me think of that. Like, these things are almost more like antibodies Or some kind of, if the Earth is the body, kind of defense or check to make sure things are going a certain way. And that if we are some, like, God analogy, analogy central today, but Agent Smith in The Matrix was like, humans are a virus, you know, he categorized us and we're more like a virus than anything else. Is that what you meant by cellular automaton guiding society?

Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I meant. Bang on. So yeah, you can imagine if we're like in the Magic School Bus and we shrink ourselves, you know, we should be able to see this sort of dynamic play out at smaller scales and then what that means in spacetime. Yeah, yeah, I think it's very— so I will say, yeah, one topic I feel is worth mentioning is model collapse. So So there's this idea in AI, it's not just an idea, it's a real problem we struggle with every day actually, is that as artificial intelligence gets smarter and smarter, the amounts of data and the data sources it can learn from decrease because it's seen it all. You've taught it everything. You've given it like, at this point, ChatGPT has been given almost every Wikipedia and encyclopedia known to man.

Hmm.

And it's almost scraped everything we've ever said. It's getting to that point. So it will need new data and new data sources. And so right now, what these multi-billion-dollar AGI labs do is essentially create synthetic data. So they'll use the older version of the AI to generate data as if a human created that data, And then use that to feed it into their next generation AI systems. So it's to make up for the fact that there is no new data that's being created for these things to learn from. And so that is useful somewhat, but eventually it stops being useful because what ends up happening is that you end up feeding data into the next generation AI systems. And some of that data is contaminated because it contains outputs from an older version of that AI system.

Right.

So what it's doing is learning from a dumber version of itself eventually. Isn't that a paradox? So what that's called— and eventually what happens is it starts losing its accuracy and it becomes dumber over time, even though it's more powerful. It stops learning. So, and so that's called model collapse. It stops being useful. And so Model collapse, I believe.

Like AI incest.

AI incest is a hilarious way to put it. Dude, that's legendary.

I have to figure out how to tweet that without sounding silly. Yeah, you can, you can have that one. I'll let you have that.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I love that. So on that exact note, I think what these cellular automata or UAPs or NHIR are doing are they're trying to avoid like alien incest. So like, I actually think that like they're better served, like we might be part of this sort of like, like what if like in the future, because in just 400 years from Isaac Newton's time to today, we went from calculus to self-driving cars, reusable rockets, quantum computing, theoretical physics, general relativity circuits. So, you know, it goes on and on, right? We did that in just 400 years. So Presumably, you know, in the next 1,000 years, we're easily in the stars. We are all over this galaxy for sure, in my opinion, in the next 1,000 years. So if that's the case, then I think we probably have a very, very important role to play in the galactic future and the general ecosystem. And so if that's the case, then you have 2 options as an advanced civilization like this, you know, classic dark forest theory or 3 body problem type stuff. Do nothing and wait for us to get to you, right? Us being these crazy, emotionally erratic, like technological geniuses. That's really what humans are, right? Like we're crazy. Um, right. And wait until we can come and through faster than light travel and so on and so forth over to you, um, or intervene. Um, and so intervention went, which is what I think obviously they're doing. Clearly, otherwise we would be detecting them all the time or having experiences. So they choose intervention, sure. But what does that imply? Intervention implies that no matter who you are, whether NHI or EBEs, right, they're extraterrestrial biological entities, or whether they're some interdimensional being, they're all going to face the same problem due to the laws of physics that applies to AI as well. which is model collapse, right? So they also cannot manipulate us too much because that will change the timelines in the future way too much in a way that will not serve them. So everybody is best served not contaminating us too much. Uh, so just, yeah, just food for thought.

Yeah. So more observational, but yeah. Right. Okay.

So the AI stuff, balance that has to be followed. Yeah.

'Cause yeah.

Working for sovereignty.

The AI stuff's interesting, and there's a lot of questions around AI from listeners for you as well. But I want to know, do you think AI is, as it stands, the next big thing that changes humanity? And again, I'm looking at this from a public perception where I use ChatGPT in a way that would probably make you physically sick, that it's, it's almost just a really, a really good a good Google for me, right? Where I'll put stuff into it.

Oh, good.

And my wife was asking it something earlier. Was it today? Yeah. And she won't listen to that. She doesn't care. And it was like a really basic question where I was like, just ask Google that. It was about something to do with a kid in a school, a bit about like a policy. And it was for like a friend. And I was like, why are you wasting time on ChatGPT asking it that question? I was like, that's not what it's for. But you have to give it more context and everything like that. And there's people using it in really clever ways. But all to my point, I think social media was the last big thing that really changed especially Western society because it has. It changed the way we think, the way we act, the way we sleep and just interact with each other. AI seems to be that next thing. But what do you genuinely see from a UFO perspective and otherwise? What impacts will AI have on society? Short-term, you've mentioned mega long-term, have us in the stars, but what do you see short-term?

Yeah, short-term, the situation is slightly more dire, which is what I'm— yeah, I'm trying to do my best, do my part as well here, make it less dire. I think there's going to be a lot more, certainly in the Western world, a lot more job displacement. So a lot of white-collar jobs will be lost. A lot of these programmers, they've already been facing this stuff. So I think we're going to see a lot of unemployment rates sort of go up because of the sort of initial displacement, but then there's going to be resettling and upskilling because ultimately AI creates ironically far more work for us to do to sort through than less. Consider this, you could also ask ChatGPT to write you a million-line piece of code that helps you pilot a plane, right? Now, should you do that? No, please don't because you're going to die.

Yeah.

At least in 2025. But wait, I bet if you wait though, like 5 years at this rate, I would probably trust it or close to, we'd be getting there. So I think that, yeah, to that perspective, if you have a million line code generated, you need somebody intelligent enough, a program or a team that can parse through those million lines of code. It will take the AI an hour to create a million lines of code. It will take an average human up to 30 years to actually properly parse that, like potentially, you know, so just for context. So how, you know, so we're going to see job displacement in a paradoxical way because I think you're going to see a lot of greed-based decision-making. Employers might decide, Look, I can save X amount of salary or whatever, but what they won't realize is that I can make 10 times more money with more people, with more AI. That's the calculus. And I think psychological shift that we're going to be undergoing and understanding. Sometimes it's going to be rough for the next few years, but I think we're going to, by the time we come out to the other end though, it's going to be a way better world. So to that extent, AI will have changed everything around us. Economically speaking, because it will continue to get better and better, it will make a— yeah. So there's that. But I think it will largely though, functionally speaking, only accelerate what we already have. It will make social media smarter, makes our algorithms more addictive, right? It makes social media better. The Netflix movies we watch, there will just be more of it, more Netflix movies to watch. There will be more Twitter bots to deal with. You know, there's, there will be more programs, more technologies to buy. So it won't change the world in that sense that we've been to, like always think that will, it really will just change much of the same thing. Like, Mm-hmm. it'll be more of the same actually. Like it's just more of it that we're, than we're used to. The big fundamental paradigm step change after that, I think, will be AR/VR. Like, I do think looking at where the Meta Glasses and the Google Glasses, the next generation, super bullish on that. And then the third big breakthrough after that will be quantum computing. And then fourth one will be, yeah, UAPs/anti-gravity and the discovery of other life. Like, that's the current sort of model I have over the next 7 to 10 years.

Interesting stuff. Listen, let's get to some listener questions because that dives all over the AI side of things, which is why I've kind of held off on some of it. Um, but yeah, some really good stuff in here. So, um, first up from, uh, Strawat, he asks, which areas specifically can budding computer science graduates help within the UFO space?

I love that question. Anything related to the intersection of computer science and physics will age like fine wine. I think it's going to be really helpful because we're going to need to understand condensed matter theory. For example, we're going to have to build better quantum computing simulations and building better quantum computing simulations, quantum AI models, and so on and so forth for modeling these different tasks like quantum chemistry problems that are needed to understand UFOs and UAP retrieval materials, right? All that requires a good understanding of both the physics and the comp sci side. So, um, I would, yeah, deeply just, um, um, push for like quantum information science if you can. If you, if you can study that, it's going to be really important. Uh, and like, yeah, physics is useful for object detection and all that stuff too. The whole stack, really.

Good advice for the younger folks out there, um, and anyone older looking to change their, you know, discipline in life. It's never too late, is it? Um, Long Knife, uh, William, who was just on the podcast on the listener call-in— so if you heard William, he says, we've heard a lot of rumors and claims about AI programs that are tasking satellites and other platforms to both track and predict UAP events. Has Deep seen any evidence of this? Are there any non-US defense contractors, i.e., not Enigma, Anduril, Palantir, etc., startups building their own versions of this with commercial satellites?

Um, I, I think I'm probably, um, aware of like one effort other than ours that kind of just pittered. I actually have not heard. I don't actually don't want to say anything about them because I don't know if they're doing anything anymore. So that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. No. Um, and I feel at this point, I don't think anybody from a non-US or NATO or NATO ally would even trust me with that information about if there are other AI satellite programs. I'm not sure about that either.

Could, could you see that being the case though, that they're using this kind of stuff to— and was this not— oh God, who was it mentioned recently? Was it not Matthew Brown on with Corbell and Knapp when he talked about, you know, you can be at— and I'm going to bastardize this, but this was the gist of it— was you think you're seeing firsthand data from a satellite feed, but there are AI programs designed to already alter and augment the data and take aspects of the data out before it even reaches what you think is the live feed on your screen.

That is the number one problem that I am dealing with too. When I launched my satellite, like, again, this is the most powerful hyperspectral imager, um, is currently dealing with some problems. I— that is a separate issue. I, I think I have some crazy space radiation thing to deal with, which is whatever. Like, I also got like a— I also get conjunction warnings all the time from the Space Force. Like, like, if you own a satellite, one of the things that you're going to get is a letter from Space Force, uh, and you'll hope that you get as few of these as possible. Basically, the letter will tell you object X has come Y meters close to your, uh, satellite, uh, with a collision. So it just tells you like, like, like it's a collision warning essentially.

Okay.

Like, like if some guy's payload, like a Starlink satellite came super close to you, just be mindful. It's less than like, there's a 1% chance it'll hit you. You know, that, that's the kind of information that they give. Um, okay. One of the things that shocked me though, as I was like putting the satellite up into orbit, right? And again, because it is the most powerful, uh, one of the most powerful imagers ever for Earth observation, uh, it went through, it had to go through certain levels of, uh, like regulations and regulatory processes that didn't fully exist yet. Like, um, or like didn't fully have baked in.

Mm-hmm.

This resolution. So the process existed, but the resolution, right, didn't. So anyways, long story short, I was given a bunch of restrictions on this satellite. One of them is anomaly detection. So if I detect anomaly, I have to first tell the US government before I can disclose it or do anything about it. So right off the bat, you know, I encrypt it. So I can see it, right? Um, but after that, I'm screwed. Like, let's say I detect a UAP right now. Like, let's say this satellite is like working just fine and everything, and everything's great and working right at the right time on top of that, uh, to, you know, pick up like a 50-foot saucer, you know, over the coast of San Diego or something, or like Tic Tac, uh, for example. Um, I don't think I would be able to without going to jail or something, or again, or at least getting sued. You know, minimum. I, well, I would be up, like, I would be up for $13,000 per day in fines for being out of breach for that, for out of compliance. Uh, for sure. There's no jail time mentioned. I say that facetiously, but who knows? Like, who knows? Like, God knows, man. Like, this shit's kind of intense. Yeah.

I think there are folks. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. There are folks though who would be like, well, if you had really good proof or evidence, or even you had some, you know, great GoPro on your satellite that was, that was filming directly to you. You could just say, I'll send this straight to the news networks and they're not going to arrest you or fine you, and, or the money you would make anyway is going to be worth it. Why wouldn't you just do that?

Yeah, because I've seen— I would have done that 6 years ago, but now that I've seen and interacted with the UFO community, I would not do that. It's so not worth it.

That is not an unfair answer, honestly. I think there are so many folks who, especially with whistleblowers, who are like, to hell with it, just go and tell us all what you want. I imagine—

People can tell me I faked the fucking photo while I destroy my life? Like, no. Yeah, like, no thank you.

Yeah. Oh, let's, let's come to that in a second, right? But that's the thing. Let's, let's use David Grusch. If we're going to use David Grusch as generally considered the most credible UFO whistleblower out there, probably ever, for a lot of folks—

I agree with that.

I fully agree. I don't think, given his position and everything else, the way he spoke and his, his lack of Public speaking, shall we say? He's kept himself a little, you know, quite reserved. For a lot of folks, David Grusch is a guy. If David Grusch went, you know what? Fuck it. Tonight I'm going live on. Let's not pick News Nation because I get they're doing a lot of good stuff for UFOs. But what's the biggest news network in the U.S. without me upsetting someone on the left or right?

Um, the oh T B P N, the Technology Brothers Podcast. I don't know. It's a big tech news network.

Okay, let's. pick like massive reach yet, or even like Joe Rogan or Lex Fridman. He's going to simulcast on all the big networks, right?

Yeah.

And Grusch is going to sit and tell us everything he knows, even the shit where he's like, I'm not allowed to tell you this legally, but here we go.

Yeah, like the names, dates, locations. Yeah, here's exactly where the shit is.

Okay. What do you think that would really change?

Yeah, uh, really nothing, dude. If anything, that would only give, uh, a head start to the gatekeepers, cuz the first thing they're gonna do is change everything and move the craft. Like if they know that the location's been leaked, dude, you think they're just gonna be sitting down? These are the most powerful people. Again, I cannot state how powerful the opposition is in all of this.

Yeah.

Um, they're losing their power, but, uh, yeah. Um, good point. Not much would change. He would definitely get, you know, subpoenaed or like sent to Guantanamo Bay like immediately. Um, we would never hear from him again or something, or there would be some weird like mishap. God knows, you know, like very bad things could probably happen.

And even not even just to him, he, he must be thinking about family, friends, loved ones as well, because those folks would even be like, Dave, that's fine, you've said what you've said, do you know what, you're fine. Them, however, are about to lose their jobs, their livelihoods, their savings accounts are about to be emptied, all that stuff.

Yeah, it could be that bad depending on yeah the the size of the crime, the nature and so on and so forth that he's being accused of. Hundred percent. It's good that like the U.S. isn't like China where like in China, like for example, if you your actual entire like your whole family could actually be affected by like what you did. But like in the U.S., it's like more individuality, I believe. But still though, I think all that's to say though is that. It would just be a spectacle, man. He would create conspiracies. The UFO community would eat it up. We would love that stuff. People would make memes, retweet it, thousands of likes, all this stuff. His life would be falling apart. The gatekeepers would be laughing all the way to the bank because now they know exactly what he knows. I cannot understate that nobody knows exactly what David knows other than David, which is why he's alive, right? So Second he doesn't do that, it's game over for him too, in many ways. Uh, so, um, and, uh, yeah, I, I think we need to basically, um, yeah, force disclosure at this point in many ways. Or like, sorry, not force it because it's gonna happen. It's kind of like, um, I don't know, I don't know enough fighting skills, but you know, like sumo wrestling or like, uh, you know, uh, jiu-jitsu, like where you do like ground transfer, ground momentum. momentum transfer. Yeah, yeah, right. You just like take— that's what we got to do. Like, the enemy is coming at us, let's use that momentum, uh, against them. Uh, and the enemy being the gatekeepers. Yeah, because yeah, they don't care about humans, in my opinion, as much as we do.

Are, are we past the point— and this is what I wanted to mention before— of given where AI is at, even, is it fair to say, commercially and publicly AI is still quite primitive in terms of what we've got access to. Is that fair?

Yeah, absolutely.

There's a lot of cat videos still.

So 100%, it's still got a long way to go. A lot of room to grow.

Are we past video and photographic evidence being of any use now whatsoever?

No, not at all. It's always going to be relevant. It's just going to be harder and harder to validate that it was fake or not. That's it. That's all. So how do you balance that then?

Is it with AI itself to, you know, work?

It is with AI itself, literally. It's literally gonna just be a cat and mouse chase of like AIs trying to outsmart each other. You can have one AI that's like really good at faking these things and you'll have to build an AI that's really good at detecting it. And then somebody else will build an AI that's better at faking and outsmarting this detection one, and it's just gonna keep going. Yeah. And we're already seeing that with political targets and scams, actually. People are starting to, especially in the crypto community, I'm seeing some really sophisticated scams being put where people are actually deepfaking videos for like video feeds for like, for their CFO and stuff. So they'll like, you know, they'll pretend to be an executive at a company and say, hey, wire $10 million and they'll defake all of it. So. So yeah, there are security firms who have actually introduced technologies that have successfully predicted it, but those predictions won't be accurate a year from now because the tech will change.

So yeah, you're always going to have to evolve and keep up with it and be chasing it. Yeah. And then you've got the UFO issue is what does real even look like? So yeah, how does that then, I suppose, let me ask you, how does that work with AI that Say, say I went out right now and I drove and filmed a genuine broad daylight triangle or saucer 50 feet above my house, like really good quality, and I'm like— you can hear me going, shit, like that's— I've just recorded an interview with Deep and I've walked out and here is this thing right there.

Symbols or whatever. Yeah, just cool.

So I— if, if I then post that online, forget the fact I'm a UFO podcaster, so people straight away are going to call bullshit on it. I would be the worst person to have a legitimate UFO sighting because no one would believe me.

By design, we're all UFO people.

It's too obvious. Yeah, so we're the worst people to have it. But how would AI know that that was real and genuine when it's not had genuine and real UFOs fed into it? Yeah.

So it, the best way, and again, it won't know for sure. That's always the caveat. There's always gonna be probability that's wrong. Uh, and it's gonna essentially do, uh, it depends on what metric it's, we're using. We can use Manhattan distance for, for the example. But what AI will do is it looks at the difference between known objects that it's classified and labeled. So known birds, known planes, uh, in different angles and so on and so forth. It will have seen millions and millions and millions. Of these images, and they're all labeled and annotated. And so for it to tell, is this a genuine triangular UAP? Is this genuine, like a real UFO? What is the first thing it's going to do, right, is match that against the data that it's seen. So does the shape, the feature vectors that correspond to this thing, look like any other shape that it's seen? Does the texture And does the combination of the texture plus the shape look like anything it's seen before? And if the answer is no consistently as it keeps going down this chain of thought, that's an anomaly. Now, whether that was faked or not, that would be a different set of decision trees that it would have to go through. Yeah.

Okay. That's quite interesting. Bars Attacks, cool name, asks you 3 questions and the first 2 are linked. In your mind, what is the most beneficial thing AI will provide for humanity? And second, what is the most detrimental? I'll give you the third question in a minute.

Sure. I'll start with the most detrimental. I think the most detrimental thing AI will give to humanity is a mirror. It's going to mirror our best and worst characteristics. It already is. And when it does mirror the worst parts about us, it's scary as hell. So like Anthropic, for example, Claude, right? That thing was recently released in beta testing for safety and stuff like that. Essentially, it showed both self-preservation. So all the large language models seemingly show self-preservation, like you try to unplug them, you know, so like, but one thing it started doing was once it was threatened that it was going to be unplugged or like the rules were going to be exploited or whatever, It started threatening to black— it blackmailed essentially the developer or the tester. This happened like less than a month ago. So it's not like this is like a couple years ago where AI got smart or something. This happened very recently and it starts like, uh, gaslighting the person and having all these control issues, doing human shit, like stuff that humans do, like sometimes, like, you know what I mean? So like, Hmm. Worst thing, worst thing AI can do, the most detrimental thing is, yeah, be a mirror. Uh, in a way that, yeah, uh, basically removes our humanity though. Like, like it, because what we don't want it to do is be a hu— better fake human than us. Like, mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Like that, then what are we doing? Like then we're just obsoleted. Um, the most beneficial thing though. So yeah, so I think the detrimental thing it'll do is it's gonna probably take away, um, the sort of fight the like or the that sort of like hunger that you get or that thrill that you get when you like I've actually like that our ancestors probably got when they like chased like you know gazelle or something with spears and then killed that shit and then ate it right like that thrill that's gonna be taken away from us because we won't have to work again I really don't think we will it's gonna be irrelevant like the idea of Like putting on a suit, going to work, all that will be bullshit. So what do we do? So yeah, that's what I mean by detrimental. Like, because that's a big part of human identity, dude, is doing things like it for us, for people, for like people we care about, providing resources. Like, if that goes away, what—

Creativity has been a big one. I've seen it kill really quickly. Like, I, I'll use it to— I like to think I use it to polish things or try and learn things. Like, I'll ask it, I'm trying to do this step by step, explain this to me. And then I'll be like, if I can't work out— no, no, you've missed a step, explain again step by step. Like, for example, I've got a new microphone, tell me the best setup for this in a room with a low ceiling, photography background behind me, echoey walls. What's my best setup? And I'll use it for that kind of stuff. But I've seen people like start to release podcasts that are 2 AI hosts talking to each other.

Oh yeah.

And you're like, what are you doing, man? It's like, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of that. That kind of death of creativity for me is a bit of a worry. Um, there's a lot of stuff I still like to do manually that— yeah, I've started using Descript as a service for the podcast, and I actually made a mistake really early on. I saw it had an option of studio sound So for anyone who heard an interview a month— I can't remember who it was— about 6, 7 weeks ago, I processed it through and a few folks got in touch and said, ah, it sounds like the end of some of your sentences and the guests are cutting off, but it's really odd. And I was like, oh, I can't— and then I listened to it and I went, yeah, it does. And then I realized studio sound has like a percentage bar attached to it that you have to click on it to see.

Oh no.

So it was going through and if you went It was taking out the, but then the end of your word. And I was like, ah, you have to reduce it down and there's a sweet spot and all that kind of stuff. So things like that you learn as you go along. But there's a lot of manual things I still like to do with the podcast. And yeah, I hope it doesn't kill creativity and just enhances it and amplifies it.

Yeah, it certainly will. It's going to be up to the person. I mean, if you're a lazy thinker, you're cooked. AI will take over your brain. You will use it for everything.

Yeah.

For even thinking about how to think. And you don't want that ideally. But, uh, but I think, you know, UFO people like, uh, are, you're clearly a free thinker. I think most people in the community are independent thinkers. We're actually the most well-prepared group of people on the planet, uh, for what's happening with AI because the, the, let's talk about the benefits, right? The benefit is that all of humanity will get humbled the way that the UFO community has been, where like we've embraced the idea of not being the smartest species in the universe. Like, that's literally the number one axiom, right? Like, yeah, it's worse. It's somebody else. It's not us. Who the hell is it, right? Um, but the AI community and the tech community, they're, they're billions of dollars being funded right now to stop AI development, period, in its tracks, stopping completely. Um, and the reason why these people, certain people, are doing this is because they're afraid of, uh, What happens when you create a superintelligence that is 1,000 times smarter than all humanity, every human combined? Why, you know, what happens? Like, and to us, that, like, that's an NHI. Like, that's literally how they're able to manipulate matter, right? Like, whatever the hell we're dealing with is clearly much smarter than us. So, um, I think the benefit, the best thing that AI will bring, uh, is, um, peace. Ironically, in the long run, peace and unity amongst humans. Should we survive? And I'm sure we will, but like, we just gotta be smart about it. But because like, we'll unify under one threat, if that makes sense. Or like, even if it's not dangerous, we will inherently, no matter how benevolent this super intelligent, 1,000 times smarter than humans, ASI that we're building as a species is, or, and, and that the funny part is, is there's gonna be more than one. Like, there's gonna be hive minds. Like, that's—

Mm-hmm.

Uh, it's not gonna be like, yeah, just one godlike being. Uh, um, which actually, frankly, it's better to have hive minds and different competing intelligences because they're gonna keep each other in check. You don't want just one being that's like all intelligent and powerful, in my opinion. Like, 'cause then that's one data center, that's one hardware asset. Lots of problems, uh, occur there. Um, so, um, and one failure mode. Um, but any— anyways, I think it's gonna force us over the next 3 to 5 years. Humans will see that there's almost no difference between one human and another. It's going to be so obvious how different this other form of intelligence is and how clear the impacts are on our society. Combine that with disclosure, it's just going to make us really see ourselves as one, hopefully.

And final listener question, still from Bars Attacks. He asks, or they ask, Do you think quantum computing will allow us to communicate in any way with the higher dimensions represented in the quintic manifold? Can you explain what the quintic manifold is for a start?

Yeah, yeah. So that's a great question. The quintic manifold—I think they're particularly talking about this—and the Calabi-Calabi-Yau manifold—the six-dimensional Calabi-Yau manifold—is essentially. a type of object that's used to describe— it's a hyperdimensional object that's used to describe spacetime. And like, there's certain theories in string theory that posit that we live on this really high-dimensional mathematical object where we're on the lower dimensions, and there's other beings that exist on higher dimensions on this manifold. And so the way to think about this is, uh, and the question that's being asked, which is a really good one, is can we use quantum computers being on a lower dimension to speak, communicate with a higher dimensional, uh, like essentially, uh, being or entity or something that lives higher, higher up on the plane of this manifold? Absolutely. Yeah, the answer is yes. But the question is how, because, and that's where, um, we are missing a very fundamental piece of physics that I do think AI will help us Because what we're missing is really this sort of like clear explanation of why spacetime is continuous, macroscopic, classical at larger scales, but discrete and quantum mechanical at lower scales. Whatever that missing glue is that will allow us to use quantum computing to communicate with higher dimensional beings, it's whatever that— yeah, that extra dimensional Those other 3 dimensions in this particular example, whatever that is. Once we understand that, we can use it.

Well, listen, you've been on with me a long time now, Deep, which I really appreciate because it's early morning for you and you've recorded at a nice time of day here for me. Just before you head off, I'm going to put those links for the website for the hackathon and for Starvesa, which we've not got into too much in there, and for people to check out. But what are you kind of working on in the short term, Deep? And, you know, how can people follow you? All that stuff.

Yeah, so I'm most active on Twitter, Deepneuron, D-E-E-P-N-E-U-R-O-N. And yeah, the next thing I'm working on is Starvasa, the first product. And actually this is gonna be my first consumer-facing product, which is super sick. So anybody will be able to try it. That's gonna be exciting. But yeah, we're gonna build, I'm gonna build a reinforcement learning agent network. This will allow anybody to make really powerful AI agents or reinforcement learning agents such as you or I, and that will enable us to automate our tasks on our behalf, whatever tasks that we're interested in, and then sell those automations to the market. Your audio example, your podcasting one, let's say you find an interesting subroutine that fixes up the audio for a podcast. And you have, you ask an AI agent and you give it the task, hey, can you solve this problem for me? Let's say it actually helps you solve it or you find the solution with it. What I'm trying to enable is both that ecosystem and letting you sell that solution so that other people can use it. Now you're making money. Now you're not just like singularly using it and throwing it. So trying to create that ecosystem so that we basically, what I'm trying to do is kickstart an economy where AIs essentially transact with each other and trade with each other. And human, and they basically humans like essentially are coupled to these AIs. And effectively the idea is to have agents work on your behalf and make capital for you or make money for you even when you're not there. So it's trying to create the ecosystem that through this sort of digital framework that will enable the new economy. I do think the new economy will be smart contracts with super intelligence. That's really where we're headed for. So having contracts through the decentralized infrastructure, it's gonna be important. Yeah. And then I'm also co-designing hardware. So the idea is to, the whole point of allowing AI agents to exist and let them transact and build data and operate and move with each other and so on and so forth is that eventually I want to give them access to the real physical world. And let them embody humanoid robots, let them embody real-world scientific experiments and so on and so forth, embody spacecraft and energy infrastructures and so on. Because the goal is to essentially enable everything that will— I think as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, what I want to do in the next 20 years is enable the first self-sustaining city on Mars. That's really the endgame. In addition to, of course, disclosure, which will accelerate the Mars goals, of course.

So it's a hell of a checklist. Yeah. Self-sustaining city on Mars, disclosure.

Well, what else am I supposed to do, man? Read a book? I really have nothing else to do.

God. Yeah. That's it. Nothing else on your plate.

Fair enough. But yeah, the idea is how do we create the technology now so that Mars is fully automated so that the energy, the mining and power and life support systems are totally run autonomously by AI so that humans don't have to worry about that. We just have to exist and do philosophy and do art and create and literally just explore the universe. Like, I'm trying to just automate the shit that requires us to survive so that we can just do the things that like godlike beings should be doing, which is really Creating.

So, well, Deep, if your last 5 years is anything to go by, I don't doubt you will achieve those things, which are going to help a lot. So listen, thank you again for your time, mate, and well done in doing what you've done and keeping your eye on the hackathon, all the projects you've got going. And listen, if people want to get in touch with you, they've got the links in the description, and I will speak to everyone else very soon. And Deep, thank you as always, mate. Thank you.

Thank you so much, brother. I look forward to it, Andy. And, uh, yeah, I look forward to the next conversation too. You have a great rest of your evening.