All or Nothing

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hey everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. I was gonna say I'm Dennis, then I realized I don't think that that was necessary.

I think people know by now.

Well, especially if the other person is a female. Oh, are you ready?

Here we go. I always— in the first 10 seconds.

Yes. I— that brought to mind—

shocking—

one of my proudest, hilarious moments. For some reason, I think this is one of the 2 or 3 funniest things I ever did.

Okay.

And I hope you don't know this because it'll crack you up, but especially if you saw it. So, you know, I have been taking cruises with listeners for 30 years. So one of them, a few of them, were to West Africa. And on one of those occasions, we went to the country called Togo in West Africa. And I went into the rural area in Togo, and I visited a local, I guess, tribal chief. And the people were just magnificent in their warmth to me and all. And anyway, I took a picture. I took a photo. I'm not— I took— I was in a photo. It was taken of me and 3 of the people of the village. And these are people who have had no ancestors who were anything but Black. So they were absolutely Black, and I'm absolutely white, right? Okay, so there's— there are 4 of us, and I'm one of them. And not only that, but I'm, I'm wearing, you know, long shorts, so you see my my legs from the knee down.

Mhm.

And I, I sent it back through my Facebook page to, you know, my many listeners and followers, and it said as follows: Dennis, second from left in Togo. I—

second from left, in case it wasn't very, very obvious.

I Obviously when it comes with the picture, it's particularly hilarious.

Of course.

But here, here is the unexpected punchline.

Mm-hmm.

Half the people reacting thought it was hilarious. LOL. Hahaha.

And the other half thought it was offensive?

No, not offensive. No, thank God. They wouldn't be a listener of mine if they were that foolish. No, the other half though uh, thought— wrote something to the effect, gee, why did Dennis note that he's the second one from the left? Isn't it obvious?

And you're like, I didn't, it wasn't me, someone else wrote that, right?

No, I wrote it.

Oh, you wrote it?

Yes, that's why I say it's one of the funniest things I ever did.

Oh my gosh, I thought somebody else—

no, no, I wrote it. And I knew, and there— and half the people go, gee, I don't know. Why would he write that? You know, what are you joking? That's the point. Yes, exactly.

Well, clearly I missed something. I have to say, sometimes I find that I don't always get very obvious jokes.

Which proves there's no relationship between getting jokes and intelligence.

I think it's—

Are you aware that I just complimented you?

I am aware, but we should not. Make that even more of a thing because Dennis and Julie listeners are very aware of the complimenting. I, I, I do sometimes get emails about it still.

I don't—

let's just keep going and complimenting each other.

No, no, no, no, no. Okay, so this is actually not an unimportant point. They're wrong. They, they mean well. It's not a big deal. But at a given point, anyone who does public work has to— and there's no perfect answer— you have to weigh what are they saying and what is your mind saying.

Hmm.

I have taken— I've learned a lot from listeners, a lot. And I've noted that on my radio show all of my career. At the same time, if you are guided by what they say, you won't have a show.

It's so true.

It will not be you.

It's so, so true.

So it's not natural for people who have the affection that we have for each other not to say on occasion, as we do privately, a positive thing to the other. So There's no— if one were to take the last 10 broadcasts, so that would make, let's say it's an hour and 15 minutes on average, so that's 10 hours plus 150 minutes is another 2 and a half, 12 and a half hours of show. I would bet, and I never bet unless— because I don't have an instinct to gamble. So I only bet if I'm certain I'll win. And I would bet a serious amount of money that in the 12.5 hours, there isn't more than 4 minutes of mutual complimenting.

I would agree. I actually think that's even too much.

That's a prop. Yes. Maybe 2 minutes, maybe 1 minute. So I want— I'd love to analyze what, uh, a person who writes in about that— obviously they thought about it enough to write in.

I can, I can look up.

And not only that, they think highly enough of us to obviously be watching it or listening to it. So there— these are not hostile people, obviously. But, uh, I, I treasure The thing I most treasure in people is being real.

Yes.

Anyway, so I just wanted to, I wanted to react.

No, we don't.

It's not a huge deal.

I agree. We don't have to spend, it's hard to do D&J and then find emails in the treasure trove. We don't need to spend too much time on it, but just occasionally, I mean, the vast majority of emails I get about it don't have to do, no, get it back.

I have nothing to do with it.

But here's what's interesting. There are kind of two things. The first is, it's sort of like the missing tile syndrome. And I think this is true when you observe something in another person that maybe you don't like, or it's not your favorite thing about them. Sometimes you tend to really zero in on it. And I can imagine that those listeners of Dennis and Julie who may be aware of the complimenting, maybe sometimes they they have heightened kind of ears for it, if that makes sense.

No question.

And I find that with, I mean, you know, with just relationships in my own life, how many kids with their parents find an annoying thing that their parents do? And even if their parents don't do it that much, they zoom in on it and they make it seem bigger than it is. I think that's just true of human nature. And then the second thing I'll say on this, is I love what you said a few moments ago about they're wrong. And you said something along the lines of like, if you listen to every single person, you won't have a show. Like you need to do your show your own way. And I think there's something really, really true about that. Like just generally in life, you can't, you have to of course listen to wise people giving you good advice or, kind of pointing out if they think you're doing something wrong. But it is an equally important skill that a lot of people don't focus on to know when to tune out the noise.

And exactly. And I fully acknowledge that a lot of— oh, there it is. Yeah. Is that— there it is. That's— I love that. How did you find that?

That is— and you wrote that. That is funny. You're very funny.

I agree. But that, that, that is my, one of my proudest moments of being funny. Dennis, second from right.

That is a hilarious— oh my gosh, I love that photo. I've never seen you in shorts. Are those— see, people, I want you all to know.

Yes, socks and sandals.

He wears Birkenstocks.

They're actually Mephisto, but you're right.

And he drinks oat milk. Yes, I'm exposing you.

Correct. So, uh, back to the, this, the serious part of this. There's no perfect answer. You have to take criticism. I'll tell, I'll tell you and listeners how seriously I take criticism. I seek it. I read attacks on me. For example, comments.

Yep.

And when they're on left-wing sites, they're, they're all negative, and I still read them. And you know why? I want— for— there are a lot of reasons. I want to know what their perceptions are. How do they think? It's important to me to understand how people I totally differ with think. That's why I learned Russian, to read Pravda, the Soviet newspaper. But there's another reason. On occasion, even people who, who loathe me may make a valid point.

Yes.

And, and so I'm thinking, wait a minute, oh, I, I said that, or I did that, or I came across that way. I have to work on it. So I, so there's no perfect answer except to say that you can't be swayed in either direction without using your faculty of reason. In other words, I can't be swayed by what others say, and I can't be swayed by self-confidence in my own opinion. I have to be swayed by what is the rational— I'm a big lover of reason— what is the rational approach to that question? That's it. That's the way it works.

That's right. And sometimes if people are right about one thing, that doesn't mean that they're entirely right. You know, you can kind of pick and choose from people.

And by the way, here's another addition to your rule. That's if somebody's wrong, it doesn't mean they're always wrong.

That's exact. That's very, very true.

Yeah.

We tend to in life think—

Always.

Yes, always and never. Someone once instructed me, they say, try to avoid in your speech and in your thought using those two words, always and never. But we tend to in life kind of say, sucumb to binaries. And I'll give you an example of this. I remember when I was in college and I was discovering you and becoming conservative. What a thrilling, thrilling time, by the way. I look back on that and I had no idea how much my life was, was changing. But then when you're obviously looking retrospectively, it's, it's a really thrilling story. But I remember talking to people and explaining my conservatism. And I would talk about Black Lives Matter and how horrible and corrupt it was and how I thought that the policies that they were pushing for, namely defunding the police, were not helping but harming the Black community. I talked about the website when they said that they want to upend the Western prescribed notions of a nuclear family. And The response that people gave to me was so interesting to me with regard to human nature. I had so many people say to me, "You know, Julie, I actually agree with you that Black Lives Matter, the Western prescribed notion of the nuclear family thing is bad. I agree with you that Black Lives Matter is taking it too far." But they said, "I would rather be, you know, too supportive of BLM than not supportive of all at all, in case there's some validity to the argument about, you know, police going after Black people or mass incarceration. Their arguments were very binary, like, I'd rather be too on the side of BLM than not on the side at all. And my response to them was—

who said this to you?

Classmates. When I would talk to them about my burgeoning conservatism.

It's a despicable organization.

Of course it is.

I just want to make that it has nothing to do with supporting Blacks. Nothing. Of course, hating BLM, it's like saying I hate the KKK. Oh, but you shouldn't hate the KKK because it means you're anti-white. No, no, I hate the KKK and I am not anti-white. I hate BLM and I'm not anti-Black.

I totally agree with you. I think Black Lives Matter is one of the most despicable organizations in the world. I hate Black Lives Matter. But at the time, to give them a little bit of credit, it was early in that kind of movement. This was before the embezzlement of money. It was, to me, it was despicable from day one, and that was very obvious. But the point I'm trying to make is that people, I noticed this kind of binary in thinking, like I'm either totally with Black Lives Matter or I'm totally against it and think it has no validity.

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And I said, why can't the truth be somewhere— I don't think it's in the middle, I think it's far more towards the, you know, conservative camp— but why, why can't we go, okay, maybe some things that this organization is highlighting, like, you know, police not having body cameras. Maybe that's something that we should pay attention to. But then all the other things that they're doing, we can say are crap. Like, why does it have to be this binary? I'll give you a final example. This one you'll, you'll like. I went on your show when I was sophomore, junior, and I talked about feminism and how third wave feminism really harms women with regard to hookup culture. Because it tells women that it's an empowering thing to take your clothes off and behave like men. And I remember a lot of my classmates said to me, you know, Julie, I agree with you, but I don't want to fully— I don't want to criticize feminism because the same people who criticize feminism are the same people who want to repeal women's rights to vote. So again, it's like, why does it have to be this all or nothing thing?

Wait, wait, they actually said that?

Yes.

Do you know anyone?

Of course not.

To repeal the woman's right to vote?

Of course not. It's absurd. But what I'm trying to highlight is that in— I don't know if it's particular to higher education. I think just generally, culturally, we don't have nuance. We succumb to these binary ways of thinking. It's— it sounds so stupid to you because you think clearly, but a lot of people do think in those terms. They don't want to criticize feminism today because they think that it means they're criticizing feminism in its entirety.

It's the same. This is a very good subject, actually. And I want to tell you, I want to give you an example of where I would, uh, would have some sympathy for the other side with regard to something I believe in strongly. So, for example, I think about this more than a little. I think about it a fair amount. Israel is fighting to an existential battle. People, vast numbers of people want to destroy Israel. If anyone who denies that is lying to themselves and I— and I— there's nothing I can do. They don't— they don't hide it.

Right.

Iran wants to destroy Israel, not win a war. Destroy Israel. So does Hamas. So does Hezbollah.

They don't hide it at all.

They don't hide it.

They don't need to hide it.

That's right. Okay. So in light of that, do I engage in a somewhat of some degree of suppression of criticism of Israel at this time? And the answer is yes.

Oh, interesting.

So in other words, I'm doing what I wish everybody did is I'm putting the shoe on the other foot. I'm sure. So I, during World War II, fighting Hitler and the Japanese, I would have muted my critique of Britain or the United States because the, the much larger war is so important and so moral. I can't right now weaken— it's not like You know, I'm the coach of a football team and, you know, my team is losing. So do I really criticize? Yes, of course I do, because I want them to win. I mean, it's not— it's not a ballgame. This is very serious stuff. So they would argue that racism against Blacks is so great that criticizing BLM when the larger battle is so moral. In other words, I'm— I am now trying to put my— Yes, I know, but they were wrong.

Of course.

That's the difference.

Yes.

Israel is fighting an existential battle for its existence, which is redundant, but I want to make it clear. Whereas America is not systemically racist against— that's a lie.

Yes.

And BLM doesn't do any good. It may have right suggestions like body cams on police, as you said, But who's against that?

Well, people— I'll give you a third example. I remember during COVID a lot of people said, you know, I would rather be too on the side of masks and vaccines and social distancing.

Okay, that's right.

Not on it at all. And again, I'm like, why does it have to be this binary? And again, I think that the masks and all of that, that was BS and that it's been proven to have been BS. Largely masks were totally ineffective.

Yes, I agree.

You know, we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. But, but I remember saying to them, like, can we be tempered about it? It's either you're like a crazy mask wearer, 10 times jabbed, you know, 10 feet away from people at all times, or you're an anti-vaxxer who never wears masks and never takes any precautions. Come on. Why are you painting a picture like that? But back to what you're saying, because I think it's very important and admirable that you, as you're saying, are trying to put the shoe on the other foot. What you just said, maybe you're suppressing some criticism of Israel. What is that criticism of Israel that you would say that you're suppressing?

Oh, that's hilarious that I'm not suppressing it.

Yeah. Well, look, I want to know.

Okay. So Let us say I wish they managed the war a little differently. I wouldn't.

Do you wish that?

I— what I do when my brain goes there is say, Dennis, you know as much about military tactics as you do about Mozambique's economy.

People are out there saying it's like, what do you know?

Right, exactly.

And whenever I—

I mean, what I, you know, during D-Day, what I, you know, Eisenhower really got it wrong. They shouldn't have gone on Omaha Beach. They should have gone on this beach. What do I know? So, so that's part of the reason that I keep my mouth shut on it. The other is that right now, given the intensity of the Israel hatred, which is unique on Earth— North Korea is not 1/10 as hated. Iran is not 1/10 as hated.

Russia is not 1/10 as hated.

Chinese Communist Party isn't. Not 100. It's unbelievable. Look, it's really— let me say something about this. And we were not— well, we never planned to say anything. So it's an important point. But given the data, every poll shows overwhelmingly Americans support Israel. That the support is actually greater today than it was even 2 months ago. So you have this tiny percentage of Americans who have taken over colleges, who have shut down bridges and tunnels and thoroughfares in the Western world. It's a tiny percentage, right? But they prevail not because of them, but because of the weakness of the not bad. They're bad. They're— I, I have called them on the air Hitler Youth. They are indistinguishable. They are indistinguishable to me from Hitlerjugend, the, the Nazi youth, uh, organization. And but this is— I just want to finish this because so important. The reason they prevail is not because of their numbers or their arguments, but because the vast majority of the non-evil are weak.

This is so true.

This is the issue in humanity, the cowardice of college presidents and deans. By the way, it goes back to my time in the 1970s, which to you is prehistory, which I totally— no, no, I totally get it. Absolutely.

Yeah, a little bit.

Yeah, of course it is. But it's the way it is. Just as, you know, years from now, these years will be prehistory.

I know, isn't that crazy?

It's awesome. So when I was at Columbia, kids took over— and in that case, it was the Vietnam War— they took over the offices of the president and deans of Columbia. This same, same university. And they, they not only didn't punish them or have the police evict them, they gave them— I remember this so well— they gave them refreshments.

They gave them the humanitarian aid that that Columbia student demanded.

But this wasn't even humanitarian aid. This was, can I offer you some trumpets?

Oh, I mean, totally. These universities, as I often say, they've given the mouse a cookie for literally decades. Decades. They have allowed this behavior and they've encouraged it. You know, I played these speeches on my show of Hillary Clinton at Class Day at Yale in 2018 and Joe Biden at Class Day at Harvard in 2017. And they are saying what I told you and I said on Dennis and Julie so many times, what happened at my college graduation, which is that they got up and they said, You are the most tolerant, diverse, enlightened generation in American history.

Please bring in a vomit bag.

Hillary Clinton said, Yale class of 2018, you have demonstrated the courage, courage, conviction.

Oh, that's the part when they're called courageous. Oh my God.

No, but he, but this is what people need to understand.

Yeah.

And I, We— you've been calling this out for 3 times as long as I've been alive. I've been calling this out for, what, 4 years? I don't know. But they have not only allowed this, as I said, they encourage it. They tell you that you're doing the right thing if you protest. You're saving America if you protest. You really got to listen to these. You should play them on your show. Actually, scratch that. I played them on your show. When I guest hosted for you. Joe Biden says, you, you know, Harvard class of 2017, you lied on the lawn at Memorial. There was some demonstration then. I forget what, but people lied on the lawn. I think it was for Black Lives Matter.

Forgive me.

Lay on. Wait, they lied.

The past tense of lie is lay.

Oh, okay.

Nobody gets it right, but I know you care.

Well, you have really helped me with the with regard stuff. Now it bothers me, Dennis, when people say in regards to. It bothers me.

It is fingernails on a chalkboard.

I know, but I used to do that, so I can't judge people. But you've alerted me to it.

Well, I'll tell you, it's funny as usual. Did you finish that point? Because I want to get—

Yeah, they laid on—

They lay, not lay. It's very hard. It's the hardest English verb to conjugate correctly.

It really is.

So laid is I laid the book on the table. Okay, it's the past tense of lay. The past tense of lie, as in I lie down, is I lay down, not laid or lied. I lied means I didn't tell the truth.

You can't imagine how stupid I feel right now because it's, it's got—

it's flying by. So it just shows it— all our brains—

no, but it should be, it should be so— well, oh no, it's not flying by. I get it, but I'm saying it's stupid.

I feel stupid that I didn't know it, that I made them. So I'm curious, do you say— let's say that you have a friend and you say, so me and my friend were talking the other day. Do you do— do you do that?

I don't do that, no, because my mom is a big— that's a grammar girl.

Mind-boggling to me.

Yeah.

No one who went to elementary school when I did would ever say me went to the, to the park.

How about it and its? You know how many people get that wrong?

You mean spelling?

Yes. Or there and their?

No, you mean it's and its. It's with apostrophe. It's— yeah, yeah, it's, it's beyond belief. It's even common in printed material. I know, people writing for newspapers aren't getting it right.

No, it's, it's amazing on, on so many levels how little we learn. But yes, the point that I was making stands that this has been going on for so long, it's been encouraged. But I do want to go back because on Dennis and Julie, we often do these tangents. I want to go back to this point about thinking.

And by the way, often in this case, always would have been accurate. Yes, we always go on tangents.

That's true. That's where always is warranted.

Right.

But, you know, and compliment alert, but screw it. I really appreciate you because you really do this and I try to do this. You try to turn it back on yourself and go, do I engage in this behavior? You have to do that.

Yes.

And I appreciate that point that you're making about criticism, maybe suppressing some criticism of Israel.

Well, that's why you need the big picture. See, this is my, my wonderful— I'm not complimenting me now, I'm complimenting the idea. It's a, it's a, it's a beautiful way of thinking that everyone and every group has a moral bank account. Are you ready to lose weight but not sure where to start? Let me tell you that I chose PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. So did Seb Gorka and Mike Gallagher, my colleagues. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition and is much more than that. They know that 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating the reason you gained weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science-based nutrition Just solid science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you're ready to lose weight, hopefully for the last time, call 864-644-1900, 864-644-1900 to get started, or go online at myphdweightloss.com. Make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation. No obligation. That's 864-644-1900. Have I made this point?

Oh, you have. It's so important.

It's, it's, it's almost everything. And just for those, I'll explain it in a nutshell. A bank account is, is either in the black or the red, right? It's, it's, you either have funds or you're You have a deficit. If you take out more, if you withdraw more than you have, it's in the red.

Yep.

If you deposit more, then you're in the black. It's the same with human beings. Bad deeds are withdrawals. Good deeds are deposits. That's it. It's true for a nation. It's true for a religion. It is true for any group. It is true for any individual. So I give, I give slack to the person with a really positive bank account.

Yes.

I'm going to be less likely to be all that critical because, because I see the big picture.

But here's, here's where I give you major kudos. You're acknowledging this. You know, you're acknowledging that you may be suppressing some criticism that you have of Israel, which means you're not actually doing that. It means you're, you know, A lot of people engage in similar behavior, but they don't acknowledge it.

Oh, right. Yes.

That's— that's— but that's really, really important.

Yeah. You know, that's— that's why I've asked all the time, what's more dangerous, people who lie to others or people who lie to themselves? Oh, I think lying to yourself.

Definitely.

They're helpless. They're hopeless.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I, I've been thinking about this in, with regard to, to Donald Trump, because see, with regard, uh, I was— I know, music to your ears. And it's so funny the, the influence you've had on me because now every time I say it, I think, thank you, Dennis. Uh, because I realized that I had, I would've continued my life saying it the, the other way. But you, you know, probably the best example of binary thinking is Trump Derangement Syndrome. People who have TDS, and it's, I believe it is like a diagnosable thing. They are textbook examples of binary thinking. I mean, I was talking with a Jewish friend the other day, and she is not left, she's not liberal, she calls herself a centrist, but every single thing that she believes is what Donald Trump did during his first presidency. She believes that we need to shut the border. She believes that we need to cut taxes. She believes that we need to—

She probably believed that we should move the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

She totally loved moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. She loved the Abraham Accords. She loved the sanctions on Iran.

But hates Trump.

But she hates Trump.

Right.

And I'm sitting there and I'm going— and she's so smart and rational. I adore her. You know, you know her. But she's just the best. And I sat there with her and I just said, I really, I really am just struggling to understand.

I know who you're talking about.

Okay.

Okay. I'm not sure, but I think, yeah, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, we'll, we'll clarify after, after the show. Um, you know, but you know, all my friends are so amazing. I'm so blessed to have fantastic friends, and you have fantastic friends. Um, compliment. Anyway, so, but she I love her, but she just doesn't get it. And it literally, like, the arguments that she makes back are, you know, but he's going to, you know, if he gets into office, he's gonna turn on the Jews or he's gonna turn on America.

And I just— What is her answer to, but he was in office for 4 years. What did he do that was bad?

I mean, I ask different questions. I ask those questions.

But, but, you know, for 4 years when he was president, I did not once— and every show I have is recorded— I did not once use the term Trump Derangement Syndrome. I thought it was a little over the top.

Me too. Me too.

But it's a full-blown thing. I am as convinced it exists as I am of this microphone's existence.

Yes. Of course. But, but, you know, see, here's where I'm turning it on myself. I don't— I'm asking myself, do I suppress some of my criticisms of Donald Trump because I so believe right now we need him back? I don't— I don't think I do.

Yeah, I know. I'm—

I think I'm pretty tempered about it. I understand people's concerns. I understand when he says crazy stuff that it— that it—

that's right.

It worries people.

Well, I understood it then. I mean, there was stuff that he did when I was campaigning for him and I condemned when he spoke about Ted Cruz's wife and of course, the— what was his name?

The Marco Rubio.

Well, Marco Rubio, but John McCain. That was terrible.

No, but here's the thing. I know that I don't suppress my criticisms of of Donald Trump. I always ask myself if I do. I know I don't. I mean, Sean can vouch for it. We talk about it on Timeless a lot, how I really believe that he is the person we need back. But also, I understand some people's concerns. But here's the thing. People project their binary thinking onto us. I remember talking with a friend about Donald Trump and she said, well, will you ever criticize him or will you ever acknowledge that he did? You know, he has some bad qualities. And I said, yes, of course I will. It's so, it's so ridiculous that, that Trump voters are met with this kind of scrutiny, whereas Biden voters do. Do Biden voters ever have to apologize for voting for Biden? Do Biden voters ever have to qualify their support? Are Biden voters asked, do you endorse every single thing that Biden has done? You know, it's, it's—

Or even asked, do you have any reservations?

Most Biden voters are not asked that, but Trump voters are asked that. If you're a Trump voter, then it means that you endorse everything he's ever done.

There's a really big lesson to be learned here. And you are a living memory bag or memory server on this. Have we talked about, or at least recently, the question of the character of leaders? And its significance?

I know we've talked about it before, but I don't think recently.

So I got an email, and I don't get to see most of my emails, but I periodically check at my public address, DennisPrager.com. So somebody— and it was a thoughtful, obviously, person who has respect for me and so on, and it was written very respectfully. But took issue with my saying, which I did on my show, something to the effect that people are— people confuse personal ethical character and ability to do good in the macro. That we are two human beings, we're micro and macro. Micro is how I treat the people in my own life, my honesty in my daily behavior and so on. The macro is my positions on social issues, on large issues. They're not related, or they're minimally related, so that— and I wish they weren't. I wish that every ethical, kind person was wise about macro matters. But I don't live in make-believe world. That is a make-believe world. I, and I wish the opposite. I wish that everybody who was awful in their personal life was awful about their views. But it doesn't work that way. So that I have no judgment about Donald Trump, the man, or minimal, because I don't know him and I I've gotten mixed reports, some very positive, some obviously vast numbers that are negative. I don't care. And I made this point 100 times during the 2020, was it 2016 elections? The campaign when people would call and oh, he did this, oh, he did this, he said this. And I said, I just wanna know, do you choose, if you God forbid had cancer, Would you choose your surgeon based on how kind and nice they were?

It's so true. It's a great— it's— I'm going to steal that line.

Oh, you've never heard me say it? Oh, I'm delighted. Good, good. Then I haven't said it, obviously, on Dennis and Julie.

It's so true.

Yes. Is there any area—

I don't care if my pilot is a blank.

That's right. Oh, I used pilot. I actually used pilot on my show yesterday. Do you know about the character of your pilot?

It's—

how about this? You have a choice. The most competent pilot on Delta Airlines who is personally regularly unfaithful to his wife, a deadbeat dad, you know, not reliable in business dealings. Best pilot that Delta has. Mediocre pilot who's faithful to his wife, a terrific father, great friend, loyal and honest. Which one do you want to fly your plane? Okay, it's a rhetorical question. Everyone knows the answer.

Well, again, listen, I understand that in an ideal world we would want the president of the United States to be—

of course, ideally we want both. Of course, George Washington was both.

Yes. But right now we are in a moment where this is our choice and I have to, and of course there are many parts of his personal life or personal character that I don't like, but frankly, I don't care. I'm not voting for a husband.

That's right.

I'm not marrying him.

Or you're not voting for your pastor. The— my pastor's character does matter because he's supposed to embody my religion.

And here's where, you know, we— maybe this is a utilitarian argument. In fact, I think it is. But, but here's what really just— I don't understand. First of all, if we're comparing Donald Trump to Joe Biden, I don't want to hear it about character. I don't want to hear it.

Thank you.

Okay.

That's right.

This is— this is a lie that has been allowed, that Joe Biden is this decent, upstanding— I don't want to hear it on character about him. That's number one. Number two, let's say that Joe Biden was personally, you know, character-wise, the great upstanding man that we have been told that he is. And Donald Trump is Donald Trump. Let's look at their policies. Do you think it is someone with good character that allows the kind of crime that, that, that has been allowed to percolate in our country continue? And people are going to say you're blaming Joe Biden.

That's a challenge to me because what you're saying is there is a link. I mean, you may be right between crappy character and crappy policy.

What I'm saying is if you care about—

Oh yeah, you're right. No, no, I agree with you.

You should care that people are getting slaughtered because of this guy's policies.

Correct.

You should care that he has given cash to one of— or he He has not given his speeches.

State of the Union, his inaugural address were the most hate-filled addresses of a president in American history.

But I'm— I agree with you. But my point is not about rhetoric. My point is about on-the-ground effects and policies that actually have an impact on people. And if you look at Joe Biden's policies versus Donald Trump's policies, if we're, you know, I just don't understand this whole like, oh, I'm a humanitarian. I want the, you know, nice, upstanding, decent guy. What if the nice, upstanding, decent guy is supporting these DAs who let literal murderers out on the street? What if the nice, decent guy is lifting sanctions on one of the most evil regimes in the world, Iran, so that that agent of evil has more capacity to not only harm its own citizens but wreak havoc globally? I just don't get if you're this person who's so concerned with decency and character. Oh, so you care that, you know, Joe Biden is loyal to his spouse, but you don't care about his on-the-ground policies which leave people in body bags? I don't get it. Somebody help me.

So people always point with regard to Trump to many things. One of them is the comment that he made to another guy many years before he ran for office. You know, if you're really famous and wealthy, yeah, women let you do whatever you want with them, right? Grab them by their privates. Okay. So this, this was—

I know what you're going to say. And it was so controversial when you said it.

Oh, and I'm adamant about it.

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This is an example of where I know I'm right. This is not a matter of I feel I'm right, I think I'm right. I know I'm right. It doesn't mean a damn thing that he said that. First of all, he didn't say he does it. This is— this is— it's amazing. The dishonesty of the left is total because truth is not a left-wing value. He didn't say I do it. He said you can do it if you're famous and wealthy. And to a very large extent, he's right. Look at all of the groupies that throw themselves at rock stars at concerts, right? I mean, first, what he said is largely true. Of course, it's not true about every woman, and that doesn't mean that it should happen, and it doesn't mean it should happen. It doesn't defend it happening, and it doesn't mean he did it. But even beyond all that, If we start judging— this is where we live in the age of no wisdom— we're going to start judging people by what they say privately. Oh man, we're all screwed.

Oh yeah, everybody's screwed. Everybody, everybody's screwed.

Well, you, you— that means you can never vent to your wife or your husband. You have to watch every word you say to your wife or husband about anything you think about, you can't because you will be recorded.

Well, that's this. Oh my God. This is a Dennis and Julia episode unto its own, because when people vent in private, a lot of the times they are going to say something that is wildly exaggerated. You know, because every, every human being knows this. When you're mad at your boss or you're mad at your, your friend or your spouse, you know, you go, this person is such a blank, a blank. You know, sometimes you just You have to let it out.

Or how about, I feel like killing him?

Yes.

Oh, really?

Of course.

Are you really going to do it? Of course. You're nuts.

But there's no— there's no— like, this whole privacy point is so important. And, you know, another— I mean, the biggest example of it is that we now on college campuses, and not just on college campuses, but in the workplace, just generally in American society, people's opinions are taken to be their affirmative stances, like, for perpetuity on the subject. And I remember in college, all of us sort of felt like if we were in a discussion, you would be really careful about what you said because then you would be understood as the person who believed what it is that you said about the subject. And yes, of course, you have to stand by your words. But this is the thing I am so adamant about. I wish I could scream it from the rooftops. Part of growing intellectually is saying something that actually you may not fully believe, but kind of throwing it out there and testing it. You know how many times on Dennis and Julie— let me just tell you— I have had like a, you know, 80% of the way there theory about something or a 90% or even like a 60% of the way there. And you know what I've done? I've said, I've been thinking about this lately. I'd like to offer it for your consideration. I've thrown it out here and we've bounced it off each other. And maybe by the end of the episode, I'm a little different. Now, people ask me all the time, why do you put your face on the internet at 24? What if your beliefs change and then your face is on the internet having said things that you don't no longer believe? You know, my response to them is, okay, then my face is on the internet saying things that I no longer believe. Big whoop. Am I not allowed to evolve? How do you evolve without pushing the boundaries a bit?

The reason that I'm silent and smiley is because I so deeply relate to that. And, and, okay, this is gonna— this will tick people off— that you have realized this at your age is very impressive.

But I don't fear the cancel culture mob. I don't, I don't fear them because— guess what? That is such a good point. It is all fear.

It's all fear. I have All of my life I have taken risks with positions.

Yes.

With ideas, with behavior. Do you know how nervous I was? And I very rarely get nervous. I mean, if you told me I would speak to 40 million people, I, you know, I could eat an apple while doing it. It has no effect. But I was really nervous the first time I conducted an orchestra. I am not a professional musician. I am an avid amateur. I have obviously somewhat accomplished, or it couldn't have happened. But I knew every one of those musicians is a pro, and I'm not.

Yes.

And a fully rational decision might have been, Dennis, keep conducting your audio system.

Them.

Don't, don't, don't stand in front of real musicians and, and conduct. That would have been a much more rational thing. All of my life has been the risk-taking. Oh, you'll love this. Oh, this is one of my favorite stories. At the age of 24, your age, I said to Joseph Telushkin, also 24— we've known each other since high said, Joseph, you know, wherever I go— I had already begun giving speeches— and I said, I get the same questions, because then my speeches were within Jewish life. And I said, Joseph, I get the same questions. We should write a brochure answering the questions people have about Judaism. A brochure. I thought we could do it over a weekend. Anyway, we ended up writing a 200-something page book.

I love that.

And it took 2 years, but it doesn't matter. That's not the point I'm making. Here's the point. So Joseph tells his mother, he was very close to his late mom, she was a very special woman, that, you know, Ma, Dennis and I want to write a book, an introduction to Judaism. Her reaction is a completely rational one. She said, Joseph, you two are 24 years old. Some of the finest rabbinic minds have written introductions to Judaism. What are you going to say that they didn't? So Joseph came back to me and he goes, Dennis, what do I tell my mother? And I said, tell your mother that we will write the best introduction to Judaism, at least in English, that has been written, that has been—

I love that story.

And, and it turned out we did. That's— it's still in print 45 years later, and it's the best-selling introduction to Judaism in the English language, and, and it deserves to be. Uh, but it was a risk. I'll tell you how big a risk. We published it because—

oh yeah, that's right.

And so it It was money out of our pockets to publish it, to typeset it, to print it, to bind it, to select the paper. It was— and neither of us was rich, to say the least. It was a risk to conduct the orchestra. So many of the things I've written were risks. Just what you're saying, I threw out ideas and I knew when I wrote it I might be wrong, but how am I gonna know it if I don't get feedback?

Absolutely. It's so true. It's like I learn the most from when I say something and when I throw something out there and I was partially wrong or I didn't consider something and someone pointed it out to me. Those things are seared in my memory. And that is what has allowed me to grow. It's, it's just so sad now that the, the amount of sludge that is thrown at people. I mean, I remember when I was starting this job, people said to me, you're crazy. You're crazy. Why would you put your face on the internet saying these incredibly controversial things? Let's say you fail at it. You know, Goldman Sachs isn't going to hire you. Not that I want to be hired by Goldman Sachs just for the record.

No, no, no. But that's right.

People would say to me—

perfect example. No, no, not, not. What if you're wrong?

Yeah.

What if you say something that really hurts you?

Well, totally. But people would say that, you know, there are so many places that won't hire you. You know, there are people who won't want to associate with you. And my response to them was, you're right. And that's true right now. I mean, if I decide to pivot and I'm not pivoting, I'm, I'm staying right here. But if I ever decide to, to pivot, There are a lot of places that won't hire me.

That's right.

Of course, because of what I've done. There are a lot of, you know, there already are a lot of people.

All they need to know is, so Dennis, who exactly was the Dennis?

I'll be like, oh, we can keep that detail private for now. But are you telling me that even if that's the case, that this wasn't worth it? Of course this this was and is worth it? Not even a bleeping question.

The lesson here—

okay, go ahead. No, I'll just say quickly, I think I want to hear what you think the lesson is, but I think the lesson is don't fear not only woke cancel culture, because that was the genesis of this discussion that people fear in class pushing the boundaries, but sort of like life cancel culture.

That's right.

Failure.

That's right. That was it. You took the words. I'm glad I didn't interrupt.

You were going to say life cancel culture?

No, I was going to say don't fear failure.

Yeah.

You won't succeed if you fear failing. It may even sound like a cliché. I'll live with that. But that's— that is the answer. I'll tell you, by the way, there are times I did get in trouble.

There have been times I've gotten in trouble, too. Well, So what are you referring to? I mean, the Quran thing?

Yeah. I mean, I—

that doesn't mean you were wrong. I don't think you were wrong on that.

Well, I was wrong with one line.

What did you say?

There was one line in my essay that I wish I had not written. The essay was— well, for those who don't know, this is how many years ago? With that, 15 years ago, when Keith Ellison was He's now Attorney General of Minnesota. He's a left-wing Democrat, and he was congressman. He was a congressman from Minnesota, and he was going to take his oath on the Quran. And I— and it would have been— I think it was going to be the first time that a congressman or senator or president President was not going to use the Bible. I know that there were a few cases of presidents, like for example Teddy Roosevelt, after McKinley was assassinated, they couldn't find a Bible. Or one president thought that it's sacrilegious to use the Bible.

Really?

Who? An early president. I don't remember. Yeah, it was an interesting thing. He thought this is a secular role, president. So I don't want to confuse the two, but it was out of reverence to the Bible. It was not out of rejecting it.

I see.

Nobody has ever rejected it. So he says, I'm not doing the Bible, I'm doing the Quran. And I wrote, I wrote that as far as oaths are concerned, the Bible is America's book and has always been. And I even said, I don't believe in the New Testament. That is not my Bible. That is, that is the Christian Bible.

Right.

But I would take an oath if I were, if I were elected, I would take an oath on the Bible. Which includes the Old and New Testaments, because this is our civilization. This is my civilization. It's— I am honoring my society. That is correct. The people who made the freest country in the world believed in the Old and the New Testaments. So I honor them by doing it. You should honor them. And I even said I have such great admiration for Mormons. I wrote that in my column. But if a Mormon said, I'm not going to use the Bible, I'll only use the Book of Mormon, I would have objected then too. This has nothing to do with your being Muslim. But I did, and everything I wrote is legit. But I got in trouble for one line. Oh no, he should not be allowed to do it, I wrote. And, and that—

okay, that was wrong.

It was, it was wrong, right? But okay, of course. But look, I'm on the right. I'm attacking a guy who's in a, in a, he's a, he's a member of two victim groups, Black and Muslim. And, and here I am, white Jew saying that. Oh man.

No, you, the, what you got, the, the flak that you got for it, in my opinion, was undeserved. I mean, I was like 5 years old, so I don't remember this, but I'm saying, you know, learning about it. In recent years. I think that that was really unfair. But I want you to notice the way that I said, okay, that was wrong. Okay, that was wrong.

That's right. You know, like exactly right. One line, right?

Okay. And this is the thing that people need to understand with themselves and with others.

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Nobody's perfect. Like, people are going to be wrong, right?

But if you don't risk wrong, yes, you don't risk failure. You can't succeed. I want to get back to that That's the point that you and I are making.

And you are in some ways.

And you will fail.

Yes, you will. You will. But, but that's fine. I mean, what's, what's the alternative? Living in a gilded cage?

Well, people want to.

But that's, but that's what I tell myself sometimes when I'm on the air and I look back and I go, you know, Julie, maybe you should have phrased that differently, or you should have. Okay, I should have phrased it differently. Like, there's room to recover, there's room to grow. And at least when I judge others, if they acknowledge that what they said or did was wrong and they truly mean it and they apologize, then who cares?

There is a saying, you didn't grow up with this. Most, most people didn't, or at least not in the last, since the post-World War II era. I think earlier people did. I don't even think— I don't even think— and I was gonna say, I wonder how many of your classmates at Harvard would even know the definition of the word aphorism. Do you think they would? I'm not trying to—

I didn't learn it until after college.

The word aphorism?

No, I didn't.

Okay, so that— okay, perfect.

And I only—

I grew up on aphorisms.

These are such gems.

Oh, they shaped my life. So here's an example. Most of them were Jewish. Aphorisms. And, and here is the one. It is from the Talmud, the second holiest work in Judaism after the Bible. And it says, I'll say it in Hebrew only because that's how I remember it and because it's fun for people to hear. Lo habaishan lo med. The easily embarrassed person doesn't learn. Isn't that brilliant?

Okay. Dennis, so often we are in sync without realizing that we're in sync. I have been obsessed lately with aphorisms, and I didn't know about them until after I graduated from college. You want to know the proof that I've been obsessed with them recently? Look what I just pulled out of my bag. I carry this around with me in my bag. It's William Bennett's book of aphorisms.

Oh yeah, Bill Bennett. Yes.

And by the way, he wrote— I saw the intro to one of your books. Books, or the foreword, excuse me, to one of your books. I think it was Think a Second Time. And this book, everyone, I'm— it's—

yeah, he reviewed it.

Oh, want to even know the, the best part about all of this? A Dennis and Julie listener wrote into me and told me to read this. Oh, you're reading part of it? Yes, I'm carrying it around in my bag right here. It shows you how obsessed I am.

I would love you to meet him. He's such a good man.

I know, he's, he's quite old. I'd love to get him on Timeless, But aphorisms, I am telling you, I mean, I don't need to tell you, but I'm—

they— I have the chills.

They're like the best therapy in the world. Oh, they are the best life instruction. And they are— by the way, this will be a real— this will really tick off the compliment people. This will be a real compliment to you. I think the way that you speak is akin to aphorisms.

Oh, that's true.

You speak in aphorisms.

Yes, I do.

You have a remarkable ability.

Right. I agree with you.

We're really hitting the 4.5-minute mark today, but screw it. You have a remarkable ability to say something.

By the way, the reason that it's not bad for you to say it or me to agree.

Because it's true?

It's a gift.

Oh.

I don't take credit for it. That's a gift. If I could play the piano, great. It would be a gift. That's how I think. Can I reduce a complex idea to an aphorism?

You can say something literally. It's like 4 words and it's both so simple and so profound.

That's what—

and that's what aphorisms are. Exactly. But this book, everyone, for— I'm sure many of you are aware of it, but it's called The Book of Virtues. And William Bennett, who is— he was the secretary of the Department of Education.

He was Secretary of Education and drug czar.

I didn't realize that. Yeah. And he divides this book into, I think, 9— I can look right now— 9 different virtues: self-discipline, compassion, responsibility, friendship, work, courage, which Hillary Clinton says the elite class has in droves, perseverance, honesty, loyalty, and faith. So 10. And he picks the— he takes paragraphs or aphorisms or poems from the best works ever in like human civilization that pertain to one of those aforementioned virtues and puts them in the chapter. So you can just flip to a random page on, you know, courage, and you can find just a random little blurb.

So you know about this because the listener, a Dennis and Julie listener, told—

wrote to me and said, aren't you thrilled? I have—

I mean, what page are you up to?

So this is the thing about this book. I'm not up to a page. I just, I just flip it open. Oh, let's see if I can find one. I, I really, really hope I can find courage under the courage. There's one that is so, um, that is so apropos of our discussion. I really hope to find it, but it's about taking risks. Yeah, it's about care. It's actually about carrying on, but it's about carrying on through difficulty and failure. If I can't find it, I'll link it in the description box, but people should really get this.

Or mention it next time.

Yeah, I'll mention it next time. I'm sorry. It's a 900-page book, right?

Kind of hard to find, but I would, I would love you to have him on. I'll contact him, remind me.

Well, that's very kind.

Well, we're very close. Do you know that his son Bill Bennett was in my kitchen when this happened?

Okay, that's cool that he was in your kitchen.

Oh yeah, no, no, we're very, we're very close. And Bill Bennett Uh, uh, his son is there. His son had just graduated Prince from Princeton.

That's right, good for you. That's the one I've given to you from.

And he looks at me and he goes, Dennis, I just want you to know—

sorry.

Oh, was that you?

Yes. So, so sorry, I was looking up the poem, but I'm totally listening.

No, no, no, I just— I didn't know what it was. I thought, I thought it came from Sean. So did it come from you, Sean? See, my view is blame it on Sean.

I agree. He's the perfect person to blame.

Very important.

It's always his fault.

So his son looks at me and he goes, Dennis, I just want you to know, in front of his father, I learned more at Prager University than at Princeton University.

He said that.

And this is so long ago. We maybe had 150, not 700 videos.

Put that— put that on the website, PragerU's website, that Bill Bennett's Princeton graduate son says that you should.

You're right. God, I wonder how old the son is now. But that must have been, you know, that was the beginning of PragerU. But it's true, you'll definitely learn more at PragerU than at PrincetonU. It's not even, it's not an issue. Now I'm not talking about science, technology, engineering, math, but about just about anything else. If somebody watched the 700 videos we have up, or 650, whatever it is, and did the reading, it would be better than almost any university education by far.

Oh, I mean, I agree. I have said this so many times, having graduated recently from one of these universities. I adore PragerU. PragerU, I always say, has made me a healthier, happier person. It hasn't just made me conservative. It's made me happier and healthier. I do want to read a few—

Not something Yale can say.

It's sad, really, actually. A lot of—

So what are you looking up?

Okay, so this you'll— I'm using your line. This you'll find to be fascinating. You know the poem If by Rudyard Kipling?

Oh, I know its title, but I don't remember its content.

So I mentioned the other day to my uncle that I had discovered that—

I adore your uncle.

I know, that's so sweet of you to say. Thank you. He adores you too. My uncle's quite a character. And I said to my uncle the other day that I was flipping through this book and I just called him and I said, I stumbled upon this lovely poem If by Rudyard Kipling.

Kipling, and he then recited it.

He recited it and he goes, I knew it. I know you. Well, knowing him, he recited it, but also he went, he goes, your generation is so screwed. You don't know that poem? If he said, when I was growing up, everybody knew the poem. If, can I read a little bit of it? It's sort of about what we're talking about. It's actually a little long, so If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too.

Just what we said.

Just what we said. If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, or be lied about, don't deal in lies, or be hated, don't give way to hating, and yet don't look too good nor talk too wise. If you can dream and not make dreams your master, if you can think and not make thoughts your aim, if you can meet triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same, if you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken twisted by knaves.

This is so deep.

It's so deep. I know. I feel like I'm flying through it, but it's so—

You are flying through.

Oh, should I?

No, no, no, no. You can't.

If you can.

Exactly. No, no. Every— that the triumph and disaster as imposters.

We have to go back to that.

Imposters.

If you can meet triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same, that line, as you said, is everything. A lot of success and a lot of failure, they are imposters. They're both illusory.

I think it's Kipling who said, A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a great smoke.

Okay, so this is what I was saying at the beginning of the episode. I don't know if this is a joke or if this is real.

This is not a joke.

Okay.

It's just irrelevant.

Okay. But you want to know what the if ending is? Because he's saying all this.

Yes, of course.

I know everybody's hanging on for dear life.

Then you will lead a good life.

Yeah, but the last— well, the last line, you know, would send some woke people sending down a spiral of a dark hole. But, you know, he goes on, if you can walk with crowds and keep your virtue, if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, if you can fill the unforgiving minute, yours is the earth and everything that's in it. And which is more, you'll be a man, my son. That's how it ends. You'll be a man.

That's right. That's correct.

Now, that would send woke people spiraling. But we lost— what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a sturdy person? We've lost all that.

Of course, the number of times my father would say to me, be a man or be a mensch, which is the Yiddish way of saying it. Yeah. You never heard the term?

No, of course I have.

Yeah. No, same thing. And then that's exactly what it is. Sean tells us that we have to end. Yes, but he thought it was a really good thing to end on. He has often said to me in private, Dennis, if you could just do Kipling's If. Yes, we'll have a better show.

The D&J. Yeah, but no, that it's not an aphorism, but people should get this book.

Every, every week you should pick out one aphorism from, from Bill Bennett's book. I'm not kidding.

Okay. I literally am implementing that on Timeless. I thought about this earlier this week, that every single start of the episode starting next week, I'm going to pick something.

Really?

Yes.

I love it.

How can people reach us?

By listening to you right now.

julie@julie-hartman.com. I love hearing from you. Clearly, I also take heed to your advice, which is mostly fantastic. So thank you. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRHardman. You can follow Dennis @TheDennisPrager, and that's on Instagram.

DennisPrager.com is probably—

and @DennisPrager on Twitter. Well, everybody, great to be with you.

Thank you all.

Bye.

Here's something most people don't know. When Warren Buffett was just 13 years old, he didn't put his money into a savings account. While other kids were earning next to nothing at local banks, Buffett put $114 into a little-known investment Today, that $114 would be worth over $15 million. And it wasn't a risky trade. It wasn't even insider knowledge. It was an account that's been around since 1888, and over the last 25 years, it's averaged 29% a year. That's what happens when your money is allowed to compound. Compare that to today's savings accounts, paying less than half a percent, while inflation quietly eats away at your buying power. Buffett understood early banks are great businesses, just not for savers. If you'd like to see what some investors call the 29% account, go now to secretaccount29.com. That's secret account, the numbers, 29, dot com. secretaccount29.com.