Artificial Boxes

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Hey everybody, Dennis Prager here with Julie Hartman. Dennis and Julie is the name of the podcast. It's— I think it's unique on planet Earth. You don't have to say anything. I just, I just wanted to get that out of my system.

This is totally silly, but I just wanted to tell you and the audience that in high school, when I would write my name at the top of my homework, you know what I would write?

No.

Julie. And then I draw a heart and I draw a man.

I'm happy to hear that.

Yes, it's totally useless information.

No, it's not useless because I wonder how many girls would do that today. Oh, that's why. No, it was— you know, my— I have a, I have a very, very dark saying.

What is it?

Girls went from boy crazy to just crazy.

Well, I— you told that to me the other day on the phone, and my response to you was Girls went from boy crazy to boys.

Oh God, that's even darker. Do we have another dark one?

Okay, well, I have a, I have a subject or something that I really wanted.

For your subject, okay, do you know what number this is? Which number of Dennis and Julie?

Roughly 120s.

Around 120. Yeah, no, I just want to comment on that. So by the way, did we ever miss a week?

No.

Which, given our travel schedule—

oh my gosh—

is really—

it is—

we're really serious about this, we say, to say the least. It's also— it shows you many things. How much time flies. 120 is a serious number.

120 weeks. When we started this, I was in my dorm room.

That's right, at Harvard.

Yeah. Is that crazy?

Crazy. It's amazing when I think about it. It's amazing that we did it and that we thought it worked in retrospect.

Oh my gosh. I'll never forget that.

Your dorm room from here.

I would— I had the best roommates, the best living situation. I'm so lucky. And I'd open the door and I'd yell out in the hallway, I go, be quiet, I'm about to do the podcast. And everyone would go, good luck, good luck. And then, you know, I'd do it for an hour. So yeah, just great memories.

I wish your roommates could watch one of these.

Oh, I think some of them do. I don't know how— I don't know, a lot of my friends don't watch me, but I think sometimes they do. And I'm, I'm totally fine that—

oh no, I agree with you.

I really don't care.

We don't look— we don't look different. No, I care because I would be very curious to know what they react to.

I would love to get all 5 of them here and have the 6 of us. We're such a— well, I would love such different characters.

I would love ask you all.

Ready for this? Okay. Ready for the 6 of us? You want to know where we're all the— if we go through the list?

Yeah.

Julie from Los Angeles. One from New York City. The other from New York City. One born in Kenya. One born in Kazakhstan. And then one born in Boston, Massachusetts. So we have, we have 3 continents. We have two coasts. We have Jew, Christian, and my friend from Kazakhstan, she's not Muslim, but she grew up nominally Muslim. We have Black, Asian, white, Ashkenazi Jew. We're, you know, none of us care. Like it's both so a part of our friendship and not a part of our friendship at all because it's We love each other. We talk about our upbringings. We talk, you know, the things that make us different, but we're not like paying attention to diversity in the way that people obsess over it now. We're all just such close friends.

That's right.

And when you value real friendships and you value closeness, you actually get diversity. You don't need to engineer it.

That's right.

Anyway, I— oh gosh, that's— I love my roommates and I— you've been so kind, Dennis, to all my friends. And you've met many of them. Thank you.

Well, they're not hard to be kind to. It's not an achievement on my part. Do my friends watch me? Sean is asking.

A lot of them do.

Yeah, they say yes, they do. They do, actually. That's an interesting— it's an interesting question and an interesting answer. Okay, go ahead.

Speaking of great people, I wanted to spend a little time at the beginning of this episode telling you and I think the audience about the emails that I get from Dennis and Julie listeners.

I love that.

Recently we were talking, Nellie Bowles was in studio and Nellie Bowles is, for those who don't know, she just wrote this great new book called Life After Revolution or something. She's married to Barry Weiss. I ordered the book. I haven't read the book. They just launched this whole enterprise called the Free Press. And we were chatting off camera. And do you remember this? And we were talking about how one of the editors of the New York Times called Barry Weiss a Nazi. And I said to Nellie Bowles, I just came out with this line and I said, when people who you do like approve of you, that's encouraging. But also when people who you don't like disapprove of you, that's equally encouraging. So if the editor of the New York Times is calling Barry Weiss a Nazi, Barry Weiss is doing something right. Anyway, I just wanted to use that example to say that based on the emails that I get, it is so encouraging to me because I love, the listeners seem to like us and I love the listeners and it's this great mirror that we're doing something right and we're attracting a great audience. So I just wanna give you a little bit, like I'm not gonna say names, frankly, I don't always remember the name, but I remember your stories and I remember what you say and it is so lovely and helpful. But let me tell you some of the viewers we have. I got an email from a woman recently who is going through chemotherapy right now, and she listens to Dennis and Julie during her chemotherapy sessions. And she wrote to me about how— and we've been corresponding— she wrote to me about how grateful she is for the COVID year, the lockdown year, actually, because even though she thought it was very irrational, she got a lot of time with her kids at home and she doesn't know if she's going to get more time with her kids.

Wow.

And she wrote the most thoughtful, lovely email about how much our show has impacted her. And so I wanted to tell you about her. I wanted to tell you about another person who wrote into me who is a transgender man, born woman, or excuse me, forgive me if I'm getting this wrong.

Yeah, it's a trans man. Is it?

I could look it up. No, no, it's a— born man turned woman. Okay, turned woman. And this individual wrote into me the most thoughtful, interesting, introspective, honest email about how she's now a woman, transitioned male to woman. I remember this very clearly. And she said, I feel alone in the transgender community because I know that I'm mentally ill. And I realize that I'm mentally ill. And even by my acknowledging that, I'm a pariah in the trans community.

Right. It's normal.

Yes.

To think you're the only one.

And she wrote this email to me and she said, I—

Wow, that's a special person.

Such a special per— but I want to show you who we're attracting. Right. And I want to tell the broader audience about the fellow listeners of Dennis and Julie. And I, and when I shout out my email at the end of the show and I say it's the joy of my life to read the emails, It's not just a kind thing I'm saying. It is the truth. I love hearing from you, julie@julie-hartman.com. But this person, and by the way, there's a dash. So people have written into me and they've said they've sent it to julie@juliehartman.com. It's julie@julie-hartman.com. Anyway, back to the trans individual. She wrote to me and she said, I'm a pariah in the trans community because I acknowledge that I'm mentally ill. And she said, I wish there would be a cure for this. I wish that people didn't have to go through the trauma of mutilating their bodies in order to get some kind of remedy for their mental illness. And she said, I wanted to be a woman for my whole life, and I know that's a mentally ill thing, but I, I hate that. I wish there could be pills. I wish there could be vaccine. I wish against gender dysphoria because it's such a traumatic thing. To have to go through gender surgery.

How old is this person?

In her 20s, I think.

Oh, oh, oh. So I—

I even have more if you can believe it, but I want to give you the opportunity to respond.

Well, this— I have a few things to say. One, and they're not in order of importance, this is as they come to my mind. One is that I don't believe— it doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened, but I don't believe that this individual would have gone through surgery and, as this individual says, mutilated.

Well, I— oh, she used very— maybe she used that term.

Yes. I don't believe it would have happened 25 years ago.

The email.

The society has— it is a psychological illness. If you think you're the other sex, there is something awry. I mean, there's no way around that. But I don't believe that a full transition would have taken place 25, let alone 50, 75, 100 years ago. So I wanted to make, I wanted to make that clear.

I agree. And I, can I read the email actually? Because this is, this is, and I'm not saying anything about the, the, the person to protect. I would never, when I get emails and I talk about them on the air, I'll never say anything.

Right. I know nothing.

Right. Yes. This person is 25, male to female. Hello, Julie. I'd like to start off by saying how glad I am to have discovered your content. Thank you so much for your bravery to speak some common sense. As you can see, I'm fearful of the current cancel culture, etc. This person goes on to say personal details about where they live and all that. One thing you should know about me is that I'm a transgender man, female to male. You probably didn't see that one coming.

This person jokes to me.

That's so sweet. In the last few years, I've witnessed the complete co-opting of the trans issue by some seriously deranged individuals. I have extremely contrasting views with regard to this issue. However, I feel as though I can't share them with anyone for fear of being burned at the stake. For one, I have a mental illness for which the only thing close enough to a remedy is a medical transition. Already with that statement, I am deemed a villain and a transphobe.

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I have extremely contrasting views with regard to this issue. However, I feel as though I can't share them with anyone for fear of being burned at the stake. For one, I have a mental illness. For which the only thing close enough to a remedy is a medical transition. Already with that statement, I am deemed a villain and a transphobe. What an amazing person.

Yes.

Secondly, she continues, my greatest hope is for there to be no more transgender people in the future, that a real cure is found. Having to butcher— that was the word she used— having to butcher my body because of the crippling effects of gender dysphoria is a fate I wish on only of the worst of mankind. Most LGBT— and then this person writes in parentheses, I'm not including the Q2+ BS, right? I love this person. Um, activists haven't a clue of just how much of an emotional burden being transgender really is because illnesses have become ideologies. Um, if anyone else would hear me saying that, I would get spat on at the very least. I'm truly honored to have a more in-depth discussion. You know, we should almost— we should—

I would be tempted. I'd have so many questions.

For example, I would like to call her.

Does the individual have a, have a, a love partner? And which sex? The, uh, but, and which sex is this person attracted to? So if, if this individual is attracted to women, then in effect, she's really a lesbian because it went to she to male, right?

So no, I'm so sorry, male to female.

This is male to female.

This is male to female. Yep. I'm going to double— I think I just said that and I need to double-check myself. Um, oh God, I'm so sorry, you're right, female to male.

Yeah, I know, because you fooled yourself because you kept saying she. Yeah, that's why I keep saying the individual.

Thank you. Right.

Well, the reason I assumed it was she, she to male is that's overwhelmingly what's happening.

Yes, that is.

If this— if the person were 50, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have said that, but In this generation, it's contagion more than built-in, in my opinion. I'm not saying that about this person.

Right.

But so if this individual is— so is now male, correct? Great. So if this individual is now attracted to— is attracted to men, then the— it's very confusing ultimately. I'm sorry, this was a she to a he, so it's she. So then in effect, this individual is saying, I am a gay man. Hmm. Right?

Yeah.

But So the odds that a woman, a born woman, is a gay man is very, very unlikely. If the individual is attracted to women, then it is a lesbian in the guise of a man. I'm not saying this at all pejoratively, but—

And also, when you said it, I want people to know you're not saying it pejoratively.

No.

The confusion with the pronouns is very—

Right. Well—

I get very confused.

See, I don't believe you can become the opposite sex, right? Okay, so I'm torn. I want to honor the individual who's clearly—

who is clearly so thoughtful and introspective and so special. Thank you.

So that's why I'm saying the individual rather than— right, rather than he or she. By the way, there is this notion of preferred pronouns should never arise for a common sense reason, not an ideological reason. In virtually every interaction humans have with other interactions, we immediately assume whether the person is male or female. So nobody has to tell anybody, I want you to know I'm a male, I want you to know I'm a female. It is only people who either deliberately or maybe even non-deliberately, but I assume deliberately, have both sexes manifest, like a bearded individual in a skirt, okay, which we had. I have met— well, though the person wasn't bearded, but it was obviously a man. It was a waitress in Denmark. And I see it was, it was very sad.

You know, I— and we can, we can have a whole discussion about transgenderism. I, I actually brought this up for a different reason, which is just to say that if there's one thing I've learned through this job and through emails I get from people— and I, I want to go on actually with some more of the, the emails that I get and the people— but if there's one thing that I've learned, it's that Life is complicated. People are complicated. You can't reduce people. You can't put them in a box. Some would look at— this is why I love this example, because it proves that some would look at the Dennis and Julie Show, and we both believe that you cannot become the other sex. Some people would look at that and think that we would never attract a transgender listener. And here we have a transgender listener who is saying, I'm transgender, but I also think a lot of this, you know, LGBTQ stuff has gotten too far. And this person wrote, illnesses have become ideologies. That shows that that person sees our nuance and sees our pursuit of the truth. And, you know, because people would listen to the show and think that we're trans haters. We're not trans haters at all. We're truth lovers and we're decent to everyone, every kind of person. And I'm so proud because I think that trans individual saw that in us. And I think we see in that trans individual the thoughtfulness and the truth-seeking in them. And so, but I just wanted to share that with people because the more that you live and the more that you go out in the world, you, you really just realize that you can't reduce people. You can't look at someone who's trans and totally think that they buy into all the craziness. And you can't look at people who are conservative and smear them as trans haters and trans deniers. Life is more complex than that.

And I know she, she or he is a truth lover and we're truthful.

That's exactly. Yes, exactly. But I have gone out in the world and I have seen people. It's so easy to judge. It's so easy to, to think, look at you, Dennis, look at you. Look at what people would— people, we talk about this on the show all the time. They would never expect that you adopted a son. They would never— they would think that you're a nuclear family absolutist, that you would never adopt.

Or what about godparents to a gay couple's kid?

People would never expect that of you. We— I know this sounds hippie dippy, but some— but it's the truth. You can't— like, before you judge someone else and before you think that because of their political beliefs or because of the way they look or because of something, then, then they're in a box. Get to know them or think first and walk with some humility. They may not be that way. They may not be all of the assumptions that you have of them. So I wanted to bring up that example.

By the way, I've had— yeah, I just want to note, I, I've had trans callers.

I was guest hosting for you, Dennis, and there was a woman, I remember her name, Amy. She was male to female. She was 65. And she called in and very similarly to this individual who emailed me, who's 25, was saying, I'm trans, but I don't like the direction a lot of this has gone in.

Well, I would bet my house. So even I would bet Sean once again that this individual does not believe that trans females should compete with biological females in sports.

Yes.

There's no doubt in my mind because, as I said, this individual is truth-oriented.

Yes.

And the truth is it's not fair. End of issue. It's just not fair.

But didn't you know, it's funny, we start— we started this episode, right, with a trans joke or like a joke about, about— didn't we? We started the joke with Oh yes, you said your line about boys— girls becoming— girls were boy crazy. And then I cut in and said, some people, some people would listen to the first few seconds of the show and go, oh, they're trans hate, you know, whatever. But, but, but we're truth seekers and we make jokes about the truth, and someone like the listener, the trans listener, would understand that from that joke that we're not trans haters, you know, that I'm just trying to say people don't reduce someone. And I've learned, I've learned this, you know, this is, this is all the accumulation of things I've learned. Don't assume that someone is something. People are very complicated and you really got to get to know them to figure out who they really are.

Well, you're, of course you're right. But it doesn't take much effort.

That's also true.

Once you know certain views, you can predict the rest of their views.

That's true too.

As I wrote a column 6 months ago, I wrote, isn't it interesting that 99% of those who say men give birth are pro-Palestinian. One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.

This is an excellent point, but you're right.

We know it. It's just a given. If you're— if you are sick in one area morally and intellectually, the odds are it carries over. It's sort of like a restaurant. Most of the time, All the food is good or all the food is mediocre. I've never been in a place where all the food was bad, but it's even truer in the moral realm. But by the way, it should be a real eye-opener that virtually everyone who says men give birth and it's okay for men who say they're women to compete in women's sports, that they're also pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel. Might— you might want to ask yourself, gee, why would that be? I mean, the sickest manifestation is Queers for Palestine. I mean, I know queers in Israel thrive. Queers in Palestine beheaded and carried around.

No, literally. That's an example.

A guy was thrown off a roof. That was the other case that I read. But yes, it's all It's all bad. That's the point. And therefore, they're not that complicated, and we're not that complicated. Are you ready to lose weight but not sure where to start? So I'd like to tell you why I chose PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition and is much more. They know 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating reasons you gained weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science, science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you're ready to lose weight for, I think, the last time, call 864-644-1900, 864-644-1900. To get started, or online at myphdweightloss.com. myphdweightloss.com. Just make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation. Call today, 864-644-1900. The fact that I believe that Israel has a right to defend itself, and it is a gigantic lie that it's committing genocide, Doesn't mean that therefore I hate trans people.

No, I— but look, that is so obvious to us, Dennis, because we know each other and we're steeped in this world. But I remember being in a world where I made assumptions about— and I was— I'm not trying to sell myself short in this arena. I was, you know, I was always kind to— I've been the kindest person my whole life. I've been the least judgy people my one of the least judgmental people that I know for my whole life. But I remember at a time in my life, I was shocked when I discovered that there were black conservatives. Shocked. When I first discovered PragerU, first of all, I was shocked at what conservatives really believed. But when I saw— I will never forget the moment when I saw Larry Elder and I first learned who Larry Elder was. And I was shocked that there was a Black conservative. That shows you the extent of my— not that I wasn't kind or wasn't open, but the extent of my brainwash.

I just want to note something. If Larry Elder were on a stage and debated the 6 most prominent Black leftists, they would be at a colossal disadvantage.

100% true. Larry's the best. He is. He is so smart and God, if you always call me a human recording machine, he's the OG human recording machine. He's the real one.

He's brilliant.

And he's decent. He's all this. But my point, this is so important because it's, again, I was a kind, nonjudgmental person, but I was so steeped in the brain, you know, my bubble, which a lot of people live in, that it was stunning to me to discover Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell and Candace Owens. I'll give you another example. I couldn't believe it when I saw Dave Rubin, who's a gay conservative, right? Because my whole life I thought of conservatives as old white men, you know, uber traditionalist, white male, whatever.

The world's greatest defender of Israel at this time is gay. Douglas Murray.

Yes, true. I was surprised when I saw Caitlyn Jenner, and Caitlyn Jenner was a trans conservative. I just want to point out, because I wish— and I think I think listeners of the show get it, but sort of more broadly, I wish more leftists and, you know, could know these examples because it would open up their worldview about humanity. And that when you live a life seeking the truth, you get people who don't fit into the boxes that you thought.

Well, they're artificial boxes.

They are artificial boxes.

That's the point.

They are. Yes.

The left makes up the boxes and then—

That's right.

Do you know, you wouldn't know this. You could look it up, though. This is from the 19— I don't know, '70s, probably, maybe '80s. So there was a woman senator from Texas, Kay Bailey Hutchison.

Okay.

You heard of Gloria Steinem?

Of course she was. She was given an honorary degree at my graduation.

Really? Of course. Needless to say, I wasn't.

No, you weren't.

And she, Gloria Steinem, who founded Ms. Magazine, one of the legendary leading feminists, she said that Kay Bailey Hutchison— remember, this is a Republican female senator— was not a real woman. So much of the boxers.

This is so important. Sorry, keep going.

No, no, that's it.

No, but that's what they say about Larry Elder. They say you're not a real Black person. You're an Uncle Tom. You're a traitor to your race. That's what they say about Caitlyn Jenner. You're a, you're a self-hating trans person. You know how racist that is? You know how sexist that is? You know how truly transphobic that is to say you are not a real X, Y, or Z because you don't capitulate to my political beliefs? That is actually the whole thing. This is what I always talk about with inversions. They wag the finger at us telling us that we're bigoted. They're bigoted. They are bigoted. It is racist to tell a Black person that they're not really Black because they don't vote Democrat. Well, that is anyway very racist.

The notion of being really Black.

Oh my. Exactly. It's ridiculous. But, but I just, I'm just like, I wish more people realize this is the— I hate saying us, this side versus that. I don't like speaking in that language. But I can speak for Dennis and Julie. We are stewards of the truth. We are. We care about the truth. And I love getting an email from a trans listener who's—

by the way, you mentioned Dave Rubin. Okay, so Dave Rubin, whom I'm very close to, and he's so nice, and his spouse, I mean, they're both wonderful, wonderful human beings. And Dave Rubin So at one of my many dinners at his home, he simply said, you know, look, Dennis, I acknowledge the ideal family is a husband, wife, and children, and he's husband, husband. And that only means that he is committed to truth. That is the ideal.

Exactly.

But Conservatives who believe that that is the ideal have to be also committed to the truth and understand there are some men who cannot find a woman sexually appealing. Absolutely. It's harder for me than for you to imagine that because I'm a heterosexual male. You're presumably mostly attracted to women. So I mean, to men. So that's so, you know, but I believe that. I don't believe it. I know it. It's—

You're right. There are conservatives who deny that. And I judge them as harshly as I judge the leftists. There are some, and they're not many. In fact, I've rarely met them. I've gotten some emails from these extremely staunch conservatives, but the conservatives I interact with totally acknowledge that homosexuality is a thing and in fact are very close friends with gay people. You and me are such examples. But yes, there are some conservatives, there are some people on the right who deny that being gay is a thing and they're very judgmental about it. And I don't like that.

It's not all a choice. Can I choose not to be attracted to women?

Yes.

If I were burned at the stake, I couldn't make the choice. It's like saying I'm not attracted to food or water or air.

I wish both uber-leftists and uber-rightists, and there are far more uber-leftists than there are uber-rightists, would understand that, and I say this all the time, the truth is decent. The truth is liberating. Here's the truth. Male husband, wife, children is the ideal family. But of course, there are ideal and beautiful gay families, you know, of husband, husband, wife. I mean, why is that so hard for people to acknowledge? The people on the uber left go, oh my God, you're so horrible for saying that husband, wife, and kids are the ideal family. Then the people on the uber right go, you're so horrible for saying that there are beautiful gay families. Come on.

I will say this, this I've never said, but I, and I hope it doesn't shock any conservative because I have paid a big price for being one of the most outspoken opponents of same-sex marriage. And I still am. I still believe marriage should be reserved for men and women. I want to give gays the same rights as anybody else in partnership, but marriage is marriage. Having said that, I— but because of truth, I'd rather be the child of Dave Rubin and his spouse, and his male spouse, than the child of some really unhealthy heterosexual couple, straight couple. That doesn't negate one iota either my position on same-sex marriage or my position that, that the nuclear family of husband and wife is the best family. But I, I live in reality, and those two are great guys. They're great human beings.

So great.

And it's just, it's so interesting because people want— and I understand why they want it, but it's, it's, it's not right. They want reality to conform to their view.

Yes. Yes. You know, I— to bring up Trump, I mean, why is it so hard for, for a lot of people in a lot of different political persuasions to acknowledge the truth? The truth is that Donald Trump is a far better president than Joe Biden, that he is being politically persecuted right now. And that Donald Trump has said and done some really terrible things.

Right.

That's the truth. And people on the left will deny the truth that he was a better president than Joe Biden, that he's being politically persecuted. And some people on the right will deny that Donald Trump has said and done bad things. I'm comfortable with the truth. You know, it's not hard. Like, I wish we— this is a theme of both my commentary on Timeless and on Dennis and Julie, that people succumb to binary ways of thinking. They bury themselves so deep in the anti-Trump camp or they bury themselves too deep in the pro-Trump camp. Let's be clearheaded. Let's, let's walk humbly and steadfastly in the face of the truth and figure out what the truth is and say it and live with it.

What was the next letter?

The next letter. Oh gosh. Okay. So we have the woman and some of these are, I guess, some sad stories, but this is I'm so honored and grateful that people share this with us and that they feel comfortable enough to tell us about their lives. There was an email I got from a late 20s guy, and he wrote to me and he said, I love Dennis and Julie. I love Timeless. I'm struggling with addiction. And Dennis and listening to Dennis and Julie in Timeless helps me get through the really hard moments when I want to go to drugs.

Why does he— did he say why?

Again, I can, I can pull up the email.

Yeah, pull up the email.

Okay, cool. Yeah, I'll do it.

Absolutely. I wonder if he heard your interview with Aaron.

Yes. Well, Dennis's son Aaron is one of the coolest people I know. He, he has been such a dear friend to me. He is so special. And he has a show, AP Unfiltered, which everyone should check out.

AP for Aaron Prager.

And he was on Dennis's show. And then he was— I was honored to welcome him to my show. And he is so open about his struggles with addiction and has the wisest advice that is applicable to not just people struggling with addiction, but everyone. I love and use all kinds of MyPillow products, and right now they're having a big sale, a $25 extravaganza. When MyPillow started, it was just a one-pillow company, but now MyPillow has hundreds of products, some of which you may not even know about. To get the word out, we want to invite you, our listeners, to check out their $25 extravaganza. 2-pack multi-use MyPillows, just $25. MyPillow sandals, $25. Their 6-pack towel sets for $25. Brand new 4-pack dish towels for, you guessed it, just $25. And for the first time ever, the premium MyPillows with all new Giza fabric, just $25. Orders over $75 will receive free shipping. And this offer won't last long. So go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Hartman. Or call 1-800-566-6745 today and use the promo code Hartman.

It blew my mind to hear him on your show.

Okay, here's what— oh wait, I found my response to him, but I'm not finding the original email. I'm sorry, give me a minute.

Yeah. So by the way, you should all watch, especially if you know anybody struggling with any addiction, because the, the, and amount of wisdom come to come out of Aaron's mouth is really remarkable. So there's both a fireside chat with me and a Timeless with Julie with my son on, and you can catch him.

All right, I got it. I think I got it. Um, yeah.

Okay.

God, hold on. I'm so sorry. It's just, it's such a good Books. Okay.

How could you have found your response but not the original?

It's so bizarre. I don't know. Okay. I think I got it.

It's Sean.

I got it.

All right.

I got it. I don't know.

Is Sean in any way responsible?

Yeah, he's totally, he screwed up my email and I just get so many, which is, I'm so honored about, but— Go ahead.

It's okay.

Go ahead. Okay. Sorry. Okay. I got it. Hello, Julie. I regularly listen to Dennis and Julie and Timeless during my nightly workouts. I want to tell you I really enjoy the podcast. I was raised as a Christian but spent much of my time outside at the Jewish Community Center. This has left me in no man's land between two faiths. So the discussion and synthesizing of ideas on Dennis and Julie is very comforting to me. I struggle with drug addiction and I want to fill the time I spend doing that with something positive. That's so nice. I was inspired by your new passion for classic books and art. I looked at some sample texts from Dickens' books, but I believe they will be too difficult for me to understand without practice. Books are very expensive, so I want to get one that I enjoy, or I'm afraid I will abandon the idea and return to my normal habits of, you know, drug addiction. Do you have any—

so he's not currently using?

Do you have any book recommendations for—

I inferred that he is.

It appears as though he is. He said, well, how did he phrase it? I struggle with drug addiction and I want to fill the time I spend doing that with something positive.

Right.

Because he said he listened to Dennis Prager. What do you mean?

He's both taking drugs and filling his time with things.

The sense that I have from him is that he's struggling with drug addiction and he's he's trying—

he's to use quality, trying to get out of it.

Yes.

Well, he—

well, that's what he said with the book. He said, do you have any recommendations? I don't want to go back to my old habits. He's trying to pursue a better life.

Yeah, I don't know if he could do it. I'm sure people have done it on their own, but I think he needs help. I know you need a community, you need a program. You should go to AA immediately. I mean, that's a real big help, going to AA meetings.

Yes, I've, I've been to AA meetings, and I'm—

I know you said that to Aaron.

I don't struggle with drug addiction or alcohol addiction, but I know people very close to me in my life who have.

You know, it's a funny thing, that's really worthy of its own show, but the word addiction— so it's an interesting question. It is, my wife Sue— and there's a very serious question, it's not a cute question Is she addicted to reading?

Yes.

It would seem to me the answer is yes, because every free moment she does it, and if it were taken away from her, she would go into a withdrawal very similar to somebody who had drugs taken away from them. So it's a, it's a very interesting question. If I'm right, and I do believe it's accurate, then there can be— can there be good addictions?

Yes. Yes, there can be. But then also good addictions can turn into bad addictions.

Go on. How could—

I'll give you— I mean, I think I've become addicted to reading, which is— which is— we've talked about on the show before. I never used to read. I actually was in remedial reading when I was in 3rd grade. And since I graduated from college, I've read vociferously or voraciously, actually. A Dennis and Julie listener corrected me on this.

Correct.

Speaking of emails.

That's a good one.

It's actually, it's voraciously. So thank you to that person. And so I've read and I learned a skill. I learned to enjoy reading. And then now I've become addicted to reading like your wife. And sometimes I think that goes too far where I should actually go outside outside and go interact with people, and I sit in my chair and I read.

Well, that's— so that's, that's a very interesting observation. So there can be an excess, because that's the whole point of addiction.

Because when you're addicted, that's— there's a reason there's that term, which sort of connotes something bad, because even when it's a good addiction, a good addiction can be taken too far. And it can harm you in some ways. This is a relatively benign example.

No, no, no. It's a good one. I like it. A real reading addict may not want to speak with people.

I have become so— my books have— I mean, I'm not like one of these people that locks herself in her apartment and doesn't leave. I have somewhat of a good social life, but I have found that I have really like read books have become my friends where a lot of my friends are in New York.

I'm out here, you know, the story of how Sue and I met. It's really great because she listened to me every day and she got my Torah tapes. She was, she was, quote unquote, an intellectual fan. And her best friend said, hey, Dennis is coming to San Diego. I'm going to get tickets. So Sue said, okay, get tickets. And then the night came and she didn't want to go because she wanted to be at home reading. Yes, her friend dragged her to my talk. Sue, I bought tickets, let's go.

See, this proves my point.

Yeah, no, that's why I'm giving the story.

Wow, boy, there's so much about that story too that we could focus on because On Dennis and Julie, in, in, in recent episodes, we've discussed God and does, does God will certain things, or does God— oh, God will take hold? I think, I think the fact that the friend was so adamant to bring—

well, you should know, we have sent the friend flowers every March 17th. That is for 20 years.

You've sent that friend flowers. That's so sweet.

Every— we never missed a year in 20 years.

That's such a kind thing to do.

I'd say— I don't know how kind it is.

No, but a lot of people wouldn't do that.

No, you're right. But okay, anyway, the— I want to go back to this, a very intellectually interesting question. Is it— can there be good addictions at all. In other words, let's say, let's say someone is addicted to books. So what proves addiction? It's— I don't have an answer to this. I've thought about this a lot. What does it mean to be addicted?

And so people are addicted to exercise.

That's right. I've heard about that. That, that's exactly right.

They—

it— the compulsion to work out and or run more, uh, they say it about almost every marathon runner that there is an element of addiction there. I mean, no normal people don't run 26 miles, right? Is it 26 miles or 26 kilometers? Yeah, it is. Okay, that, that's You, you have to, you have to work really hard constantly to do that, and it's not— you're not getting any money for it. You're not getting famous for it. You're getting nothing for it, nothing external.

Right.

Anyway, anyway, so it's a— I don't have an answer, but it's a worthy question. Can you only be addicted to a damaging thing? And, and at what point do we call it an addiction? So back to the reading one. So it's not like Sue didn't interact with people, but on the other hand, here I was meeting her husband. That's correct. No, that's, that's a— it's a— that's why I brought up the story. So I, I, I, I've— so people say, here's So here's a good example. People who get annoyed with me, and I get it, people are annoyed with me for breathing, but there are people annoyed with me because I actually not only smoke cigars, but I even speak highly of them.

I love— you've made me a cigar smoker.

Yeah, well, you're a cigar smoker.

I have one.

Like I'm a jogger, but okay. So anyway, I will get an email, oh no, no, you discount the dangers of cigars because you're a cigar addict. So of course they know zero about me and cigars except that I smoke them. But I have proof that I'm not an addict. I mean, I smoke every day that I can, which is almost every day, and that is I don't smoke on the Sabbath. Because that— it's a Torah law. I explained it. I don't want to bother.

Lighting a fire.

You're lighting a fire on the Sabbath. So I— there is a 24-hour period each week when I don't— an addict could not do that. Not only then, but very often if I'm on the road and there's, you know, I can't smoke in my hotel room. And the cigar lounges are closed by 11 o'clock latest at night. And if I often arrive in a city at 11 o'clock, so there's no place to go. Do I, do I go nuts? Do I sneak behind the hotel?

Well, you know, I'll, I'll introduce another whole avenue of discussion. You know that I am quite conservative. By the way, when I say this, even another tangent, but when I say I'm conservative, it comes with these connotations of like being super right wing. I just think now conservatism is common sense. Police. Oh, you should.

Forgive me. Since you went on a tangent, I don't have to be forgiven. Do you know my story about the guy I met at Philadelphia Airport years ago?

Yes. You've told it here.

Yes.

From another country.

Yeah. From Norway.

Yes.

And he's like 30 years old. He recognizes me and I go, wow, oh, you like my stuff? I love your stuff. I go, you're a Norwegian and a conservative? And he goes, I don't know if I'm conservative. I just know I have common sense. Mm-hmm.

It's true.

And that's all it is. Yes, that is correct. Conservative and common sense.

That's right.

Are synonymous.

So back to what I was going to say, I As you know, and the audience knows, I am conservative. But here's something I do think about with addiction and crime specifically. I am one of those people, when you commit a crime, there are consequences. Police need to be police. You need to put people in jail. Doesn't mean that you abuse the privilege. Like, I believe in consequences for action. I'm not one of these defund the police people.

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However, I, I sort of get some of the leftist arguments. That say when a person is addicted to drugs or they're addicted to alcohol and they do commit a crime, it's sort of our free will question. And we're truth seekers. I'm really trying to get to the truth. Is it right to put them in jail? I mean, obviously, if they go and murder some, you know, you have to have consequences for actions regardless of whatever state that person is in. You have to. But it's a tricky thing. Like, I sort of— it doesn't mean I endorse it, but I sort of understand this, this thing of like people— when you're addicted, you are so swallowed in the addiction, you're literally— your chemistry changes, the serotonin levels in your brain, and your ability to make decisions is thwarted. And some people don't have the resources to get off of drugs or alcohol. And so I know I'm starting to sound like a leftist here, but I'm a little bit— I'm a truth seeker. Should you know, what do we do with those?

Oh, they have— no, they have to go to prison for the crime.

They do.

So there were two separate issues. Do we have a different judgment of the person And do we have a different judgment of the act? I do have a different judgment of the person.

Great distinction. Sorry, I have to— that is a great distinction, a very, very Pragerian distinction, right?

Distinctions are key.

That is—

yes, that's right. So that's the answer. I, I don't think you're a bad person like I think the guy who does it for money or, or, or out of jealous rage. I couldn't believe it. Was it on the Daily Mail? I guess, because they often have this stuff. But literally today, I saw— it was a little horrifying, and I don't say that easily. You know, there are so many cameras in every city now, so almost everything's recorded. A jealous young guy. I— there's a video of him. He went to his wife's car. She had— she had had an affair and he shot her dead. And I saw him shoot her dead. Do you realize I saw a woman running away? And then 2 seconds later, she's on the ground. Dead. It's horrifying. So that's a good example. I don't believe in capital punishment for crime, for murder of passion, but I do believe in incarceration. So the same thing with the drug addict.

Oh, that's— sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but you don't— so you wouldn't—

Only premeditated murder do I believe should be.

Wow, I gotta say I'm surprised by that. So you, you don't believe that that guy who shot his wife because the wife committed adultery should be executed? Wow.

Yeah, why?

Because, because you have sympathy for why he did it?

No, I have no sympathy for why he did it, but it is not the same as premeditated murder. Now, by the way, I will admit in this regard, I, I do take my directive from The Bible, the Torah, only allows execution of murderers for premeditated crimes, for premeditated murder.

It's so funny because, not in a pejorative way at all, I was about to accuse you of being a little lefty there.

Like, it seems kind of lefty.

Well, it seems—

yes, no, I know, because I'm allowing compassion to enter. Yeah, but, but of course, listen, motive in assessing crimes is a factor.

Well, that's not— it's not that you allowed compassion to enter, because I think conservatism is compa— I really do— is compassionate. It's that, see, to me, it's— you shouldn't— and I know you agree with this, but it doesn't matter that your wife committed adultery. It doesn't matter that it was a crime of passion. You got out the gun and you shot her. That to me is morally equal than if you plotted it in advance and she did nothing.

Well, by the way, we don't know that he didn't plot it in advance. We don't know that it was spontaneous. When the classic example of not executing a murderer is, it's in the realm of adultery. He comes home, he sees his wife in bed with another man, and he shoots them both. And he kills them. Pete, that's not the same, by the way, necessarily, as this guy who murdered his wife going up to her car. He might have planned that, in which case I do believe he should be executed.

But see, my— okay, and but how— you're even admitting we don't know the motives. Well, I think we know.

No, I think we do. We don't know the strategy, perhaps. The guy, if the guy planned, as soon as my wife drives up, I'm killing her, that's premeditated murder. If the guy just comes upon his wife in bed with another man, and by the way, I have zero sympathy for the guy killing either.

Yeah, for any of these, obviously.

Okay, I just wanna make that clear. It's if you can't control yourself, you should go to prison for the rest of your life. Okay, but it's not— I would not execute the crime of immediate passion. They're called crimes.

Interesting. Okay, I'll have to do some, some more.

Yes. All right.

Yeah, but back to— it's so Dennis and Juliet.

Yeah, so I don't know, but the This addiction question, yeah, is very, very important and worthwhile. There are two definitions of addiction. What's one? Physiological and psychological dependence upon a— what?

Substance.

Substance. Next. Wait, wait, wait, you mean second one? You just Okay, the third one. Yeah, habitually occupied with something. So that would be the reading example. Yeah, okay.

I—

people don't— people don't use it that way. So I really— definition number one is the only one that really matters. So I don't have— I don't have the I don't have the answer. I know it's worth asking. I'll give an example. They speak about sex addicts. Do you know that in all of my life— I haven't heard the term all of my life, but about half of my life— for, for, for decades, I have asked guests on my show who have written about it, can you give me a definition of sex addiction? And they sounded pretty much like most men. They just controlled themselves.

Oh, hey, on Dennis and Julie.

Well, no, it's like they used to say— have you ever heard of Hugh Hefner?

Of course.

Okay, so Hugh Hefner founded Playboy, slept with, I don't know, 1,000 women, 2,000 women, whatever.

Probably more than that.

Maybe more than that. Fine. So they— whenever he's described, he's described as a sex addict. But the vast majority of men, putting all religion and all morality and all opportunity aside, would sleep with 1,000 women.

You know what's so colossally obvious, but I just have to say it? Men and women are so different.

Well, oh, that's right.

So don't relate to that impulse. And that's not Julie Hartman nature. I know women.

There's no woman that wants to sleep with 1,000 men.

Wants to sleep with a thousand men.

Well, there's a great line about that.

It's just so true.

Women love a man and men love women. It's a great— it's a great— yes.

Acknowledge these staggering, staggering differences.

That's right.

It's a—

King Solomon had 1,000 wives.

It's amazing.

Do you know any woman who had 1,000 husbands?

It's amazing to look at you and to look at like all these men in my life. And I'm so close with you and I'm so like, look at you and me. We're such deep friends. We have— and there's a whole part of your nature I don't understand at all.

It is to your credit that you acknowledge—

and there's a whole part of my nature that you don't understand at all.

I, I do, actually. I, I actually believe it is easier— and it's much easier for a man to understand a woman sexually than for a woman to want to say, man, yeah, I totally get it, that you want— that basically women want to have sex with someone they love and have a nice day. Okay, I even understand that with regard to lesbians. Okay, so it's not a moral issue. I'm just talking about a nature issue. But it is not possible for a woman to understand the ease with which men are aroused and the preoccupation with the subject. And most men don't want to talk about it because they're embarrassed. They're afraid that their wife will think they're sick. I talk about it not because I'm happy to talk about it. But because it helps so many people by talking about it, as you say.

And I admire you for it.

And I thank you. And it's worthy of admiration because I get a lot of flak from it. But here's the interesting thing.

I know you do.

This is, this is a living example of your great line about truth.

The truth is decent.

Yes. Knowing the number of couples I have helped, because I know it from letters, I know it from calls, I know it from strangers in the street. Couples will come over to me before lectures where there's the meet-and-greet part, get a picture with Dennis or get a book signed, and the couple will come over and go, you— no, not the marital therapist— you saved our marriage. Or a woman saying, now I understand my husband, thank you. By the way, it's to her great credit because 100 women can hear what I say and 50 will go, oh, you're a sicko, and 50 will go, oh, now I understand my husband.

Yes, because as you said and I said, the truth is decent, you know? And like, just when you, when you ignore, it's uncomfortable to acknowledge.

It's uncomfortable for both sexes.

It's uncomfortable. Yes. To use this example, it's very uncomfortable for the man, it's very uncomfortable for the woman. But if you both acknowledge it and you do the work, you can actually get to a really healthy, good place where you understand each other and it's, it's all good. That's why I love you. See, you understand my line about the truth is decent. I understand your line that you have an erotic attraction to the truth.

Yes, right.

That's sort of where I got my truth is decent line from, because the—

because it's I say erotic attraction, and it's not a silly line. It turns me on. The truth turns me on.

Yeah, no, it's so like, you really— I didn't know. I mean, I lived my life mostly in the truth, but I didn't always— human beings generally don't always live in the full light of the truth, right? And when you live through it or pursue it— and I'm not saying I always do, you know, I'm every day I'm working on it, every day I'm working on it. But like, when you do it, you realize how helpful it is to you, how helpful it is to the people around you, and how goddamn good it is. I know people are going to be mad I said goddamn.

I didn't say it, Sean.

You don't need to say it to Sean. You need to say it for some listeners who—

I know. Very few.

Only like one or two.

But yeah, that's the problem.

What did he say?

Does she really want to go up to them? How good it is.

That's true. It was actually not the right word.

Right.

Use of it.

Right. That's right.

It was a superfluous use of it. But no, just back to all these listeners. And I get emails too from— got an email recently from a woman who's in her late 30s. And she wrote to me and she's married with kids. And she was saying that for a lot of her life, she didn't crave motherhood. She craved careerhood. And then she got married and had kids and started listening to you and then started listening to us and just how much richer of a life it is to get married and have kids than to just be a girl boss. And it's just, it's just very cool that people share. I just want to thank all of you for it. It's very cool that you share your lives with us.

Well, we got to go, but I, I, I, I'm happy to do— not in the immediate future, but I, I'd like to explore addiction. It is a very— yes, very interesting subject.

And, and here's an interesting question: does, does everyone have an addiction, good or bad?

Right, fair enough.

I think the answer is yes. Okay, honestly, except for you. I don't You don't— you're very— or yeah, you don't have an— and I'm thinking about my dad. I don't think you— you wouldn't— I think a lot of men— anyway, we could, we could go on and on about this. All right, another Dennis and Julie. You can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. As you can tell, I do love hearing from you, and I, and I want you to keep it coming, actually. Yes, and I forward these to Dennis, and, and it's just All great. So thank you. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRHardman. You can follow Dennis @TheDennisPrager on Instagram and @DennisPrager on Twitter or go to DennisPrager.com. And Dennis and Julie is every Sunday at 1 PM Pacific, 4 PM Eastern, right here on this YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. Take care.

Thank you indeed.

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