Ask Not What God Can Do For You

This is the story of the one. As a maintenance tech at a university, he knows ordering from multiple suppliers takes time away from keeping their arena up and running. That's why he counts on Grainger to get everything he needs, from lighting and HVAC parts to plumbing supplies, all in one place. And with fast, dependable delivery, he's stocked and ready for the next tip-off. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. Hey everybody, Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman, the Dennis and Julie Podcast. You sent me a very touching, uh, email, and people should know you send me the emails.

Many.

Yeah, many of them, not all of them, and I love them. I, I, they mean a lot to me.

They mean a lot to me too.

Oh, I know they do. Uh, this one was from— was he, was he a former professor?

Yes, he was a former university president.

Oh yeah, former university president. And oh yes, he took issue as well, very, very respectfully and so on, with something that I had said on the religious, in the religious realm. We're going to talk about religion today. That's, this is what we do. You should just know right before the podcast, we go, what, you have something on your mind? To which, and by the way, it's almost every week the same thing. And you go, yes. And I go, well, so do I.

It would be rare. Something would be wrong if one of us didn't have something on our minds.

Well, that's a fair point. But the other is that sometimes we both have something in mind and we don't do either one.

I know.

It's just something spontaneously arises. But I do want people to know how much we value their feedback.

So much. And, you know, we have an amazingly diverse crew of people who listen to Dennis and Julie. I have gotten an email from a 12-year-old who listens. I got an email from a 95-year-old who also listens. Diversity, even in— I think I've mentioned this on the show, but there are two transgender individuals who have emailed me telling me how much this podcast means to them. There's a woman who says that she listens as she gets her chemotherapy treatments. And there are people— I don't mean this as a brag, but there are people who are names that you would 100% know who also listen to Dennis and Julie.

Which, by the way, reminds me, do, do America a favor, if that's not arrogant of me to say, and do us a favor. And it's— there's no— it's not a financial incentive. I just want more people to hear what we have to say. It's, it's unique what we have. So tell people about Dennis and Julie, or send them, you know, a link to it. All right, anyway, enough of that. So you have a religious subject in mind?

I do. I, I want to talk about prayer. We, to my knowledge, have not discussed it, and I don't even know— I know you so well, and I know your religious life so well because I've been to your Torah minyan. I go to Shabbat every Friday night, but I have no idea at all the extent to which prayer plays a role in your life. I don't know if you pray every day. Do you pray every day?

So to go to your first question, what do you think the answer is about the role of prayer?

I don't think it plays a big role in your life.

And why do you not think?

I just know you well. I don't think that I think you're so rational. You're someone who gets your spiritual nutrients from reading and talking about God instead of directly talking with him. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't— I don't—

You're 100% right.

I don't— I don't— Well, I don't get the sense that you talk with God. That is so— I'm so glad we've introduced this because in my burgeoning or continuing religious life, prayer is a huge part of it. In fact, I would say—

So what does that mean? What do you— are these spontaneous prayers or are they written prayers?

So no, they're spontaneous. So let me back up and say that prayer was never a part of my life. I mean, religion for most of my life wasn't a part of my life. But I have recently, ever since I went to Rome, I have recently tried to make it a fixture of my life where every single morning I wake up and I pray. And when I was in Rome, I would do the, pray the rosary because I'm not good at prayer. I get distracted very easily. I would fear that I was doing it wrong. And praying the rosary was something that just helped me. It physically helped me, rhetorically helped me. But now I've shifted away from that because I'm able to actually talk directly with God. And so to answer your question, I do it every morning. And sometimes it takes different forms. I actually know someone who, for instance, writes out questions that they have for God every single morning on a piece of paper. And that is her form of prayer. But for me, it starts with thanks and then it kind of branches out into other things, which we can get to.

So did you today?

Mm-hmm.

How long?

Well, I try to make them quite long. I try to make them a minimum of 10 minutes. Oftentimes I don't go over that, but 10 minutes.

Well, if people say quite long, they don't think 10 minutes is quite long. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna defer with you.

No, that's fair. For me, it's quite long.

Okay.

It's more than a minute.

Is it mostly gratitude or?

I always start with gratitude, but one of the things that I'm amazed at is the versatility of prayer. I will start off by— I always start off thanking God for, for the day, for my family, for my work environment, for my health, you know, all that. And then I go on and I start thanking him for things that I didn't even realize I was grateful for. Like, I— or, you know, I'll, I'll thank them for random people who I encounter. Him. I don't know why I said that.

Yeah, I know. Yeah, I was thinking, did she mean the Trinity? I didn't— I know.

No, no, thanking him. I'm sorry. Um, like, I started, you know, there's this guy, I have mentioned him, who works here. He's, he's the parking attendant, Arturo, right? And I have such a lovely exchange with him. And then I start thanking God for Arturo, and then it goes and I start praying for Arturo's family, and then I start praying for, for families who are— I don't want to say Arturo's business, but who may be affected by similar things that Arturo's family is affected with. And then it reminds me of somebody else, and then it brings— and it's just by the, by the end of the prayer, I'm like praying for the whole world. It's amazingly versatile. I— and it's, and it's lovely because it really— you said something in a recent Dennis and Julie, you said that prayer means to examine oneself. The Hebrew.

In Hebrew. Yes.

I love that. And it— but I think it also means to really almost examine other people too. Like, I was this morning because of the story you told me about your grandson. I was praying for you, Sue, Reed, Brandon, David, Daniel, Jack, Aaron, Felicia. Like, it's amazing. How many, how many branches of things that I can pray for. I started praying for a friend whose parent died, and then I started thinking of a random girl who I went to elementary school with whose parent died. And what a beautiful thing that in 10 minutes you can think of people from your past. You can think of people who you know very well, who you never know. In the case of Arturo's— I mean, it's again, the word I have for it is versatile.

It's beautiful.

It is.

But so I've been keeping quiet. I'm prepared to keep quiet for much of this.

No, I have more to say, but I want to ask you some questions.

So let me just offer a sort of, uh, oh yeah, why don't they have like trigger warnings?

Oh yeah.

Or, or stuff at the beginning or the end of, you know, no animal was hurt in the making of this film.

Yes. Yes.

So this is a difficult subject for me, not because it's at all difficult for me to deal with, but because many people— I have been the religious, a, or a religious inspiration for very many people, which I'm very grateful for and want to be. So I have sort of not spoken about the prayer issue, although I never avoid it if it's raised. I didn't— I'm not avoiding it You, you, you raised it. Well, you know, you raised it, right? And I said, fine. So I know what I didn't say. You know what? It's not my, my, my field of choice or specialty. So let me just say it before I answer anything about prayer specifically. There's a beautiful Hebrew/Jewish say view, but teaching. That's a teaching. Jewish prayer is very rarely spontaneous, which is an issue I have with it, as it happens. It's all written out. And it has its virtue and it has its downside. But in any event, it's all written out. And it's for Jews who pray regularly, according to Jewish law, it's 3 times a day. And there is one of the prayers that's said all 3 times begins, "Blessed are you, God." I have to go from the Hebrew, so it gets confusing. Let's see. From the creators of Jesus Revolution comes a new film that's bound to touch your heart, White Bird. A Wonder Story. Discover the moving tale of Julian as he uncovers his grandmother's incredible journey to escape Nazi-occupied France during World War II. Based on the beloved book by the best-selling author of Wonder, this inspiring film demonstrates how one simple act of kindness can create ripples that last a lifetime. Directed by the visionary behind Finding Neverland and featuring stellar performances by Gillian Anderson and Academy Award winner Helen Mirren. White Bird promises to be a cinematic experience you won't forget. Catch it in theaters starting October 4th. For tickets and more details, visit whitebird.movie. Oh yes. Blessed are you, God, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. That's a regular standard prayer, and then it continues. And I was taught at a very early age, why doesn't it just say the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? This is, by the way, this was the great, a great, if not the great gift of Jewish learning. I was taught always ask, why does it say X and not Y? That's how I read newspaper articles. That is the reason I can analyze things the way I do. I was taught that. So it's a great— if you didn't have that training, you would never think to ask the question.

Source of wisdom.

But this is the great— always give that example. The prayer is, blessed are you, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. And, and so the question is asked by the rabbis to 2,000 years ago, why isn't the prayer the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Why the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob? And the standard religious answer has been because Abraham related to God in his way, Isaac in his way, and Jacob in his way. So how interesting, it's one God, but it's really all— my God is not the same exactly as your God. It's the same God, right? But it's sort of like—

well, that's the concept of the Trinity, very much.

That's fine. But it's— and, and for people outside of religion, here's an example. My brother and I have the same mother and father, but they're not— they're not the same. Of course they're the same by identity, but my, my relationship to our parents is so different than my brother's relationship to our parents. It's true for every family. So in that sense, so therefore my approach— or why am I saying this— my approach to prayer is not standard or normative, but it's not illegitimate either. It's just Dennis's way of relating to God is, is prayer-wise, not the norm.

Okay. So I love this podcast for so many reasons, and one of them is I get to know you better. What is Dennis Prager's way of prayer? You, who over your shoulder, if we can get the camera, wrote all those Torah commentaries. You have a very, very strong relationship with God. Or maybe actually that's not the right way to put it. You have a very— I think you have a very strong responsibility that you feel to God. But do you—

God is omnipresent in my life.

I know. I—

well, that is correct.

So what is your— do you have a relationship with him?

I never use that language.

I know you don't. That's why I'm asking the question, because I've never heard you.

By the way, this is what I— when I explain to people why Dennis and Julie is different from 40 years of my radio, I said because she brings things out of me that, as open as I am, and I'm very open, uh, but someone will always bring something out of you that you don't necessarily offer on you, or not because I hide it, it's just not being brought out. So this is a— this is obviously a good example. So I, I never use the language of my— do I have a relationship with God? Of course I have a relationship with God. I mean, that, uh, you, you, you— how could something be omnipresent in your life but, but So, but this is the blessing and curse of my being very rational. So, so I'm just thinking, this is again, this is, you're bringing this out. I've never raised this point. Do I have a relationship with Beethoven? It's a very serious question. This is not meant to be cute. And I've never thought of that. Beethoven play, or Bach or Haydn, any of the great composers. Music is a very important part of my life. Do I have a relationship with Beethoven? What would you answer that question? Beethoven makes me cry and makes me laugh and makes me excited and gives me strength, and, and I'm moved. Do I have a relationship with Beethoven? What would you say the answer to that question is?

No.

Okay, well then, I don't know if I have a relationship with God. But it's so— but it's dishonest to say I don't have a relationship with God. It's just I, I'm sure I really am searching for words. Who has meant a lot to you? Jane Austen? Is that, is that right?

Charlotte Brontë.

Charlotte Brontë. Do you have a relationship with Charlotte Brontë?

No.

That's not accurate. Then, then relationship— well, it may be accurate, I take that back. But then we have to define relationship, and I hate doing that. I was like, well, let's define the word. But we have to. God is omnipresent in my life, and yet here I am saying I don't know if I have a relationship with him. But I, uh—

boy, is this good, by the way.

Why?

It's so interesting to me, and I don't know this at all. I, I have my suspicions based on what I've read and observed with you, but I've never heard you talk about this, even in all of our private time together.

Yeah, well, I haven't. No, you're forcing me. The word— see, okay, so are all relationships by definition two-way?

I just— I know you're gonna view this as a cop-out. I think with God it's different. I really do.

Well, no, if, if with God it's different, then you, you're changing the definition of the word relationship.

Of course it's different because God is your creator.

No, I know that. Okay, all right, so it's different. Okay, wait, the relationship I have with you is different than the one that I have with my brother. But the word relationship has not changed its meaning.

So you're asking if it can be two ways?

No, not can it be, or must it be?

Yes. Okay, that's my preliminary answer. Yes. Um, well, okay, what do you mean by two ways? Like, for instance, I know people who have a who, to use their language, feel that they have a strong relationship with a deceased relative. Someone who they— I know a girl who feels like she really knew her grandfather fought in World War II and died. And she, you know, the grandfather actually wrote a book. He was injured in battle and then he wrote a book and then he died a few years later and the granddaughter never met him. But she feels that she really knows him through the book and through the family stories and has a kind of relationship with this individual. Now, I would I would say that that is a two-way, in a sense, relationship because you're not going in blind. You didn't know the person, but you have a lot of information about the person.

Okay. Then what would you say? No, if that's what it means, I've always understood the word relationship as meaning two ways. If what you said is what relationship can mean, and I acknowledge it may not have only one meaning, I have a relationship with God.

So I want to—

I don't believe— forgive me, I just don't believe— I don't believe he communicates to me. I believe he has communicated to me through the Torah. That's the reason I've spent my life teaching the Torah. God absolutely speaks to me, but not to Dennis, not the way I'm speaking to you, right? But there are people, many people, and I, I don't know if I envy them, but I certainly respect them, feel that God communicates to them. I don't, I don't have that.

Oh boy, I know I said it, but this is so interesting. I have so many questions for you. So first, let's consider— you said a few moments ago that you feel like you do have a relationship with God, and on the other hand, you would say that you feel that you don't.

If this girl has a relationship with the grandfather she never knew, and I believe she does, then I have a relationship with God.

So let's entertain—

she doesn't believe— forgive me— because she doesn't believe that the grandfather talks to her.

No.

Okay. So when I have heard people speak about, especially my Christian friends, Jews don't use the language of a relationship with God. It doesn't mean that they don't, but it's not their language. Each religion has its own vocabulary, so to speak. It's like Jews say they're in love with Judaism. Christians don't say they're in love with Christianity. They say they're in love with Christ. It's a very— it's a difference you'd never heard, but I'm bringing out. It's very fascinating.

Well, forgive me for cutting in, but I actually think that is a very characteristic theistic Jewish and Christian difference. It makes sense to me that Jews don't talk in the way of having a relationship with God, because the whole point of Christ is to make God incredibly personal by being a person, by being a person, by becoming incarnate and having flesh and walking among us. So that, that actually completely makes sense. Go on.

But it does. And, and by the way, it's, it's a sort of advantage for, for Christians that they, that this immediacy vis-à-vis God through God coming as a person is not available to a non-Christian. Forget just Jesus.

It makes it way easier to believe in God, that's for sure.

Right. Yes, it does. It does. I acknowledge that. On the other hand, we our love of the Torah, there's no analog to— Christians don't say they love the New Testament. They believe in it, they adore it.

That's right, they love the person who animates it.

Yes, right. So it's— I've always— because I know Jews and Christians so well, I say Jesus is to— or the Torah is the physical Torah, not just the Torah's words. The physical Torah is to Jews what Jesus is to Christians. We kiss the Torah when it is— it every Saturday when it's taken around the synagogue, when it's taken off. It's a— and it's an emotional thing.

Very. Yeah.

Okay. Anyway, so If a relationship— so did you— if, because you had something that you had a whole—

well, I just want to, I want to prompt you here. So I want to consider both of these things. I want to understand when Dennis Prager says I have a relationship with God, and then I want to understand when— because, and by the way, I completely understand. I feel the same way. In some ways I feel like I have a relationship with God. In other ways I would say more that I struggle with it. But I want to entertain these two. Let's start with the relationship. What does your relationship with God look like? What role does he play in your daily life?

He plays absolutely in my daily life in that, first of all, I think about him a lot, which is amazing when I think about it. When I think about thinking about it, I think about it a lot. But it's true. I, I constantly think What would God want me to do? I would say that that is the single most frequent God-centered sentence of my vocabulary.

How healthy.

Oh, I, I think it is, uh, absolutely. That, that's, that's the most important question I think people should ask, by the way. What does God want you to do? What I can't imagine What could be tied with that in terms of importance?

It harkens back to— I think it was John F. Kennedy's father, Joseph Kennedy, who said this, and then JFK repeated it in his— or actually, maybe it was a— sorry, JFK went to a school where the motto of the school was, ask not what your school can do for you, but what you can do for your school. Yeah.

And he said it was Joseph Kennedy. Because Joseph Kennedy was not a—

yeah, that's right, a respectable thing. That's, that's exactly right. And JFK said, ask not what your, what, what your country can do.

Oh, he took it from the school.

He did. Yes, he took it from—

fascinating.

And so I think you have that with God. Ask not what God can do for you, but what you can do for God.

My dear Jules, I, I, I, you, you, you warmed my heart. You You have summarized God and me in a sentence. That's right. I do not ask what he can do for me. I don't, I don't literally twice in my life, one as a child for something silly and one as an adult for something super serious, that I ever asked for anything. And it's eerie that it happened. What I asked for did take place.

What is that?

Oh, it was really— I could say it publicly. It was a prayer for Aaron, my younger son.

Oh God, I could cry.

Yeah, I could cry too.

I really, I really could cry.

I think God could cry because he's such a special person. Yeah.

And it could have ended so differently, right? This is Dennis's son who struggled with addiction. I've become quite close with him.

He He, he, his late mom and I adopted him at birth, but we did not know that she was a meth addict, and it had its impact. But he, he's, he, he is terrific. And it was shortly after I made that prayer. If you're still waiting to buy gold, sitting on the sidelines might cost you precious gains. This is Dennis Prager for AmFed Coin and Bullion. That's my choice for precious metals. The current economic climate could make buying gold a very desirable safe haven commodity. The government's overprinting of money, the fluctuation of interest rates, and high inflation can all impact the value of gold, and it's why you should seriously consider buying now. I've been working with AmFed Coin and Bullion's owner, Nick Grovich, for years. I'm glad that I jumped into the precious metals market when I did, but it's never too late. Nick's been in the industry for over 42 years, and he's proud of providing transparency and fair pricing to build long-term relationships. Nick and his team have my back, and they will have yours. They recommend what's in my best interest, not theirs, and I never worry about hidden commissions or huge markups. If you're interested in buying or selling, call AmFed Coin and Bullion for a free coin performance review 800-221-7694. AmericanFederal.com. AmericanFederal.com. It's not in the Bible. Just, there's a lot of Catholicism that is not in the Bible. More Protestantism is much more sola scriptura, just, just the scripture. But, uh, the, the teaching that I got as a kid is ancient teaching God did not split the sea until one Jew went up to the top of his head.

What does that mean?

Into the water. Oh, oh, so showed— in other words, God does miracles, but we have to— we make them possible.

Interesting.

He doesn't do it without our input.

Well, I was really struggling with this concept of prayer for a long time where I said, how, you know, how does this, how does this all fit together where God gives us the free will to, to not only do good things and do evil things, but be affected by good things and evil things? How does the free will concept accord with prayer where you are somehow trying to change the outcome of something. And one compelling argument that someone gave to me is that God works alongside our free will. He doesn't— he wants friends, not slaves. Friends is maybe a different— not the best way to put it, but essentially coworkers, coworkers, co-creators with him. And that, you know, if you are demonstrating that you're taking him seriously and your prayers are in accordance with his will, and if they are noble, essentially, he wants to work alongside your free will, not so much to grant wishes, but to— see, you can even see I'm struggling.

Well, that's the value of this discussion. It's forcing both of us to clarify. By the way, while you struggle, can I say something?

Please.

This has actually affected me already. I will never say after today that I don't have a strong relationship with God. I have always understood relationship as a sort of emotional bond like I have with you, but it's not the same as what I have with you or with other people close to me in my life. That's God, I don't know if God and I— I don't even know if— I don't know if any of the words work. All I can tell you is I now realize, as a result of already this early part of, of, of this time together, I really, I really do think about him a lot. And if that doesn't constitute a relationship then I don't know what does. But that's why you dismissed my having a relationship with Beethoven. I'm not sure I would say I don't.

Okay.

I would only say in the— there is an analog because Beethoven has done a great deal for me in what he's given me, his music. God has done a great deal for me in what he's done for me in terms of his, his Bible, especially his Torah. Where I don't have— where I've always been suspicious of the word relationship is asking God for things, which is a big part of a lot of people's religious life and not part of mine. So that, that's, that's a moment of clarity there. And I'm not saying I'm right at all. I love that people pray When they say they pray for me, when people learned that Sue had breast cancer, I was very moved by all the people who said they prayed for her. There wasn't an iota in me that thought, oh, that's sweet, but doesn't mean anything. I don't think that at all. But so I very rarely ask for anything. The other is, I guess outside of the asking for things, I guess I really do have a strong relationship. I think God hears what we're saying right now.

Of course.

Well, that's a big deal, and I don't believe Beethoven does.

I think God knows our every thought, our every instinct, everything. I think he knows us, knows every part of us more intimately than we know ourselves.

Okay, so that— so For the atheist and agnostic and secularist listening, this, this is too strong to just be nonsense. You know, this is two bright people, pretty rational people, who think that, and You can dismiss it as, as what? As nonsense. You can dismiss it as wishful thinking. And I've thought of that. Is it wishful thinking? But I don't believe it is. So I will never say anymore that I don't have a relationship with God. I have been changed in the last 20 minutes.

Do you talk to God?

No. That's, I guess, that's the arena where I've always been not remiss but not comfortable. Not, I felt I would be dishonest if I said I had a relationship with God because I don't talk to him. That's correct. I don't. My dad did every single night of his life.

Wow, interesting.

Oh, my father loved God. See, that's also, that's the other area where I have my trigger warning for people. I don't know if I love God.

Well, it's certainly difficult to love God.

Well, here's what Joseph Telushkin and I came up with in our 20s when we wrote our introduction to Judaism called The Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism. Still in print all these years later, I'm proud to say. Anyway, uh, I don't remember which one of us came up with it, but because so many things we came up with together, but doesn't matter. It is hard to love man and God at the same time. That, that's— well, that's the reason you have a difficult time loving God, because you love man. You, you, you, you, you feel for people. The more you feel for people, the harder I think, I think it is to love God. He made a world with so much built-in horrible suffering. Now, he has his reasons, and I believe that, and it doesn't in any way diminish my obedience to him or my belief that he wants good for me and for everyone. But it's hard to love him. By the way, I have a proof that it's hard to love him. That's why there's a law to love him. If it came naturally, why would there be a law?

That's right. A lot of things to say.

Well, he just asked, does God talk to me? Do you mean to Julie? Because I said I don't think God talks to me. Not in the sense that, that Julie is talking to me now, but he— I know this sounds— it sounds to a lot of religious people like third-rate communication, but, but I, I do think God talks to me through the Torah. And through the prophets. I don't know. I don't know why that's— I see. So wait, does Shakespeare talk to me through his plays? Yes. So does Shakespeare talk to me? No.

Hmm.

He talks. So does God talk to you?

No. He doesn't talk to me.

Oh, I didn't know what you would say, by the way.

I know you didn't. And part of me didn't know what I was going to say either. No, no, that's only partially true. No, he doesn't talk to me. You know, I— when I was in Rome, there was a priest, Father Vinay, who is in Latvia. His diocese are in Bombay, but he's doing missionary work in Latvia. And he was on this program that I was on, and he has the gift of reading souls. And I thought it was nonsense. I thought it was well-intentioned, noble nonsense. And I sat there, Dennis, with this priest, and I swear to God, he read my soul. He was— not only did he get so perfect, and I didn't talk to him at all. I sat down there and I said, Wait, how long had you spoken before? Oh, gosh, maybe a day. I mean, we were on the same tour for a day.

Well, and what does it mean to read your soul?

He sat there and he— I don't want to do it on the air because it's very personal, but he read the things that I was struggling with and he referenced specific individuals in my life, not by name but by relation.

And Okay, I'm laughing because—

no, it's true.

I mean, I know you very well. Okay, it doesn't matter.

No, not by name, but by relationship with many different people in my life. And maybe not right.

All right.

And he got it.

Okay, so all right, so what is this? How was this dream?

So I, you know, I was so fascinated by this, and all the other people on the trip said the same thing. They said, you know, they The Father Rene would go, I know that you're struggling with your sister and please just grant her.

He said that.

Not— I'm referencing someone else, but he said yes. My one friend, she recounted this and he said, I know you're struggling with your sister. I know you're fighting with her.

She did not mention that.

No. And Dennis, I thought this was nonsense, but it happened.

No, no, no. I believe it. Right.

I was knocked off my feet.

So why do you say read your soul? It's sort of read your life.

No, because he would talk about loneliness or the sadness or the hubris or the— like, he got it. He got the underlying emotions or character traits that were affecting your life. I'm telling you, I totally understand people who would dismiss it. Me, 3 months ago, I would have said no way. There's just no way. But I saw it. And so I asked Father Vinay, I said, how does this come to you? And he said, and I said, you know, does it happen to you all the time? We were actually on a, on a, on public transport in Rome going to St. Paul's Outside the Walls. And we were talking and he said, if I turn this on in me, I could look at all these people on this train right now and I could, I could go, okay, that person is having an affair. That person is this. He said, but I turn it off to respect people's privacy. I only do it when they ask it of me. I said, oh my God. And I said, so what is happening? And he said, I just, it's not like a Father Vinay, this is Julie Hartman who da da da. It's not like a voice. He said, it's just information that's put in my head.

Yeah, okay. I believe that. By the way, I don't dismiss it at all. But what does it have to do with God talking to you?

Or you talking to God? Let me go on a little bit with this and then I'll loop it back. So the more I got to know him, and he read my soul the first day of the trip, or as he's, you know, we kind of called it reading the soul. And then the more I got to know him, I would ask him so many questions. And I said, Father, have you ever asked God why he gave you this gift? And he said, yes. Mm-hmm. And you know what God said to him?

No.

He said, because you have devoted your life to taking care of the poor, sick, and the disabled who are my best friends. I think that's beautiful. And I think it— I, I think some people have the ability to kind of have a communication with God like that. When you ask me, do I— did you say, does God talk to me? No. But what I pray for a lot is the grace to understand certain things. And in that way, he kind of plants something in me or gives something to me. And, you know, I kind of can't figure out, and maybe this sounds like a terrible thing to say of a person of faith, but I kind of can't figure out if this is really happening or if I am, you know, like the placebo effect. But in a way, it doesn't matter because it works. I really, what I try to do.

That's how I feel about placebos, but go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, it works. So why would you stop doing it if it works? But I will, you know, sometimes recently, you know, if I'm on the air and I'm pausing and I think, okay, what am I gonna say next? I'll pause and I'll ask for some help. Like literally for, I was guest hosting for you and there was a pause and I felt I had been done with my analysis and I didn't wanna just keep going on and talking for the sake of talking. I took a long pause and I just shot it upwards. I know that sounds crazy, but I think, I think of giving something up and then it came to me or I had this kind of calm. And I do, I do this constantly. It's that. So, so again, in that way it's not a voice, but it's sort of like information or it's sort of a, it's sort of, it can also take the form of something in my day. Something that someone said to me or a person that came into my life or an event, I kind of see that as part of what I was asking for. I don't know if that makes— I'm happy to get specific.

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He doesn't speak to me.

Right. Okay. But do you speak to him?

Oh, yes. All the time.

Do you make requests?

This is something I struggle with. I always— I make requests, but I always say, if this is in accordance with your will and if this is in accordance with your I, I sort of like make a prophecy. I understand if this is not— okay, sorry. I, I, I ask for certain things, but I also ask for the grace of understanding if those things don't happen.

Okay, that's sweet. And I mean, that's, you know, it's not— so he has a question from Sean. So he thinks maybe the more important question, he says, is do you listen to God? Yeah, okay, but, but if he doesn't speak to you, what are you listening to?

I, I, I asked the same question: what would you want of me right now? And I try to every single day act like God. I know that sounds weird, all right, so it's true.

I, I try to listen to God. I try to act like my life is trying to listen to God.

No, I don't try to act like God in that I'm a moral judge, but with the New Testament, I, I try to I try to imitate—

that's the Christian way.

Yes.

So back to the, the request part, because that's where I, I find myself in a minority among religious people. You would not— I assume— I mean, it's, it's known, correct, to the public that you have a seriously autistic sister?

Oh yeah.

Right. Okay. You, you would not pray that God heal her?

No, I actually, in the spirit of full honesty, pray for something a lot different. I pray for her peaceful death.

Well, but this is why what we have here is so unique. I mean, the openness by both of us, uh, Because I, I, by the way, I, I totally relate to what you're saying because a lot of her life has just been pain and, and sadistic and pain. Yeah, by, by caretakers who, who were horrible. And, and even when When it's not in pain, it's— there isn't any joy like that, like joy you would have. I think religious people, a lot of religious people, would have a problem. Not, not with your prayer, because you're certainly not going to do anything about it. All you do is visit her and treat her beautifully, but I think a lot of religious people romanticize life, and I don't. Not every life has intrinsic meaning, and I know that's heretical to say. When my mother-in-law, whom you vaguely knew in her— my mother-in-law was a remarkable, brilliant woman. You are in love with my wife, properly so. My wife is very much a product of her mother. Her mother was an extraordinary human being. Her mother became a doctor at 50. At 50.

I didn't know that.

Yes.

Wow.

And became an extraordinary psychiatrist. She, she was one of the most brilliant psychiatrists, and I've known a fair number of them, and I've ever known. And, and for the last few years of her life, it was a state of dementia.

Oh, it was horrible. That same with my grandmother.

There was nobody there, so to speak. And I hope, by the way, I pray there was nobody there.

That's how we feel about it.

Otherwise, it's, it's, it's torture beyond any torture one can imagine. So I wanted God to take her for her sake, because I— if I'm in that condition, I want God to take me, because the biggest single thing in my life personally is dignity, and I, I don't want to lose my dignity, right?

Well, on this point of requests, because it was very interesting to me that you brought up that your prayer for Aaron came true. I struggle with this because, and maybe this is me making myself the moral arbiter, but I'm not requesting that God give me, give me $1 million tomorrow. I'm not requesting that God make me the Queen of England. You know, I'm not requesting these.

That's why I said, but that's why I said I don't think you would pray that God cure your sister. No, it's more likely you should. I mean, no, no, no, but, but I don't think you should.

Because why not?

I mean, well, then why, then why not pray that you win the lottery?

Because the— because I think winning the lottery is something that is superfluous and not— I don't need to win the lottery. Her life would be transformed and she would be alleviated from suffering if she were healed, right? I don't need a million dollars. But with requests—

oh, he wants to know if it would be better for you to use the word that you pray to ease her burden than pray for her death. The problem with that, Sean, is that it's just language manipulation, because ease her burden is the same as her death. There is no way to ease her burden with her current condition. Well, there is, I guess, with better care, with, you know, I mean, so in that sense, that's possible. But well, and that has happened.

It has. It has. She's in such good care now. And we view that as a miracle, actually. We view that— I was never— when I was growing up, I was never praying. I think my mom and dad say that they would pray for Gina's— for a better situation for Gina. And it did come true. After a solid decade of sadistic, wretched suffering, though, and litigation. I mean, just that we call that the dark decade of just terror, really, for her and for us. But so, so yes, I guess it did come true. But, but I don't know why it didn't come true sooner. Maybe that's not fair of me to, to say.

And you don't know that it came true.

I know.

God.

And also, right, I don't know if it came true permanently.

Right, okay, that's another issue. But you don't know that her better situation was done by God.

Yeah, it actually seems very much like it was done by my parents relentlessly litigating with the state of California. So actually, I don't so much view that— to your point, it's a very good point you raise— I don't view that so much as an act of God as it is my parents.

How exactly do we differ in our relationship with God? Well, I thought we did.

I thought we did too. I think, I think here's where we're the same. We both ask what God would want us to do primarily, right? I think what's different is I speak with God. Oh yeah, I talk to him directly.

Yeah.

And maybe I make more requests than you do, but let me tell you some of my requests and then we, we can, we can judge them. I, I request that with people specifically, we'll make it about you. I request that you live a long and healthy life. Obviously, obviously I make all these prayers for my parents and family members, but I'm making it personal to this, to this podcast. But I request that you live a long and happy and healthy life, that Sue lives a long, healthy, and happy life, that Reed's baby is healthy, and you know, that Felicia and Aaron's baby is, is healthy and has a beautiful life, that Felicia doesn't struggle with, you know, she— I don't mean to expose private information, but she was struggling with morning sickness— that that burden is alleviated, that Jack and Daniel have a prosperous, healthy, happy upbringing. And, you know, those are the things I pray for. And so are those requests?

I don't know. If they're not requests, what are they? This is not a challenge.

No, I agree, they are requests, but they're not all— but they're not—

let me tell you how I hear it.

Yep.

There, I hear it in two ways. I hear what a wonderful human being Julie is. That's that. Oh, I think you don't even have to react because I know you'll dismiss it, so don't even react. I'm just telling you, and everybody listening knows it's— I'm right. It says— I think it says much more about you than about God or theology or anything else. Okay, doesn't matter. You could— if you want to answer, you can answer. But the— that's, that's one, that's one thing. The other is, and this is the argument of those against me for not making requests, that not everyone who makes requests is assuming God will say, yes, of course, I'll handle it. But they are close enough to God that they want to articulate what concerns them. And I, I, I have zero argument against that. Okay, just want to make that clear. I'm not that close. It's funny how even that, because this is really— I've never talked about this as much. I've talked about it in 5-minute chunks. So it's— I'm just now asking myself, am I close to God? So how— on the one hand, I'm thinking, how can I think of God all the time? Constantly ask, what, what does God want from me? And not— isn't that make— isn't that definitionally close? But when people say close, they think emotionally close.

Well, I think that's a difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. I think that the— in the New Testament, God is emotionally close to you. He is a human being. He is personally close to you. Whereas in the Old Testament, he's not. And by the way, I love both for that reason. I want to understand God in the terms of the Old Testament, and I want to understand God in the terms of the New Testament. If I solely understood God in terms of the New Testament, I'm not so sure that I would quake in his moral— in the light of his moral authority if I didn't have the Old Testament. And similarly, if I didn't have the New Testament, I don't know that I would feel Maybe I would, but I don't know if I would feel as easily that he is a presence in my everyday life and that I can embody him. It's interesting because, you know, a few minutes ago I was saying that I try to be like God, and I called to mind what the serpent said to Adam and Eve, tempting them to eat the apple, that you will be like God. And it's a weird thing because in a way you want to emulate God in some ways, and you do not want to think of yourself as emulating God in most other ways, hence the compatibility of the Old and New Testament. But going back to the—

but I just—

sure, sure.

I'm not only the representative of Dennis here, I'm sort of the representative of Judaism. Understandably, there are many religious Jews who have the bond with God that you speak of with with Jesus. I, I— so I'm glad you brought this up. I don't, but there are many who do.

And that's not to say that God— I mean, I, I think one of the most beautiful parts of the, the Old Testament is God breathed, uh, gave life. It's the nostrils quote. See, I'm saying how beautiful it is and then I cannot quote it by heart. But God, God formed you. He—

and breathed the breath of life into, into the nose.

I think there are beautiful passages like that that very intimately tie you with God.

So I'm glad Well, and certainly in the Psalms. I mean, you know, oh, that's such a good point. Yeah, that's Old Testament.

Such a good point.

Yeah.

Yes, that is really true.

The Psalms is sort of the favorite book of many Christians.

You know what, that's— that is an excellent point. I didn't think about that.

So it's— it's the— the Torah is not, uh, touchy-feely. Touchy-feely, right? Part of the reason I love the Torah. But later, like the Psalms, absolutely is. What has happened— and you know I have a love affair with Christians, so just for the record— what has happened historically and to the present day with some or even many Christians, not most, is the, the touchy-feely, which is beautiful, has overwhelmed the moral judge.

I mean, I agree. I completely agree. I— we can talk about that. I mean, I have gone into some churches that are so touchy-feely and they're like a hippie concert. I'm like, this is not God. This is just not God. But I want to go back for a moment to this whole requests thing in prayer, because I was struggling earlier with— and every day I struggle with it, you know— does God answer prayers? Do prayers count? I think they do. I think that God wants to work alongside your free will, not as somebody who grants wishes, or to use a Dennis Prager term, not to be someone who's a cosmic butler, but someone who's By the way, Dennis, you have influenced me so much. When I pray, I go, God, I am not trying to make you my cosmic butler right now.

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The way— thank you so much for Dennis Prager. And I said, thank you so much for the, for the fact that I had basically no religion and he was the first person that you put in my life. Speaking of which, I think that was an act of God. That makes me really believe in God. But, but on this prayer subject, I do think God works alongside your free will. But when I make requests that he act alongside my free will in a certain way, I am asking them in a way that I believe is in accordance with his principles. Again, I'm not asking to win the lottery. I'm not asking to be transformed and look like a supermodel. I'm not asking for, you know, like, superfluous things. I'm asking for the health and happiness of my family. I'm asking that I find a great man to marry and have children. You know, in other words, I'm asking things that I think God wants me to do. I always make a note of deference that, of course, I may not understand everything. And that this is my human understanding of things that I want. But I'll tell you, you know, a few months ago, I was really, you know what this is, I was struggling with something personal in my life that really, really broke my heart. And I went into church and I was praying. And just this line came out where I said, God, please help me do what I know you want me to do. I want to get married. I want to get married. I want to have kids. I want to help save Western civilization. I want to be a pillar in my community. I wanted this, but I'm lost. Please help me do what I know you want me to do. And I think that's fair, because if God doesn't want me to do those things, then what does he want me to do? Seriously, like, what, what else would God want me to do besides those things that I asked for? I'm not asking for a specific, you know, make me the, the next, you know, Fox News host or something. I'm not asking for a specific thing, but I'm asking for a general—

Well, if God forbid you got a terrible illness, you would pray that he heal you.

Yeah.

And by the way, I would pray that he heals you too.

Yeah.

So that is a specific thing.

You're right. And we don't know if that would be in accordance with God's will.

No, but does it count? I would see— I don't agree with you on that. If it's not in accord with God's will that you not die young then I don't— then God's will is so inscrutable as to be foolish language for human beings. I mean, I don't— it would make no sense. I mean, did God want 6 million Jews slaughtered in 5 years? Did God want 5 million Ukrainians slaughtered in 2 years? Did God want 60 million Chinese slaughtered in what, a few years during the Great Leap Forward. These are not happening. The notion in accord with your will is correct in, for example, I often will say before I give a speech, oh God, I just want to say what you want me to say. It's a common thing.

Okay, yeah.

So that's, that's God's will in, in that sense. That's, that's his, so to speak, his moral will. But we can't fool ourselves. It— do X only if it's in accord with your will. Then the implication is, or some degree of implication, is that it's God's will that all the people I just mentioned—

I know, I know.

And by the way, my father did believe that. My father, who spoke to God every single night of his life and loved God, did believe— and he was an Orthodox Jew— he did believe that the Holocaust was God's will.

Why?

Because his argument— I don't share it, but I don't belittle it— Dennis Prager, you're telling me that something so huge, God just watched?

Yeah, well, I think that there's permissive will and then there's active will. And I think that God gives us the free will to, as I said, do evil things, do good things, and be affected by evil things and good things. But I also do believe that there are times when God can step in and act. And that's why I am prayerful, and that's why I endeavor to live a truly noble life, because I want him to— I want to work along— Do I love him?

Yeah. I never asked you that. I don't even know what you're going to say.

I do. I really do, actually. And at times I've been very upset that he would allow such things. But I do love him. I'm really grateful to him. I mean, but then again, I'm well aware that my life makes it very easy for me to love God.

That's my jewels.

Of course, I have to be crazy.

Very important.

Are you kidding? I'm an American.

The reason— that's the reason I find it hard to love God, because I realize my life is so atypical. Of the staggering amount of suffering on Earth. I don't— when you, you get it, I suspect, because based on what you just said, you get it that I find it hard to love God.

Of course. I mean, I know people who have lost parents so young. They have seen their parents die of cancer, and the body just rots. How can you love God When—

so what's your answer?

How can you?

Yeah, you just asked a good question.

Well, I think you can. I think that you can love that he actually provides a remedy for that. Okay, so there was this girl—

wait, what's the remedy?

I'll tell you. So there was this girl, I'm thinking of her, I met her on my Europe trip, beautiful girl, and she just lost her mother to cancer. And the mother just, again, like, just rotted away for 10 months and perished. And I said, I saw her 2 weeks after it happened, and she had tears in her, just always tears in her eyes, but wasn't always letting them out. And I said to her, how are you okay? How are you dealing with this? And she said, I have faith in God. If I didn't have faith in God, I would be lost. And I said, what do you mean? And she said that a priest came in and spoke to the mother and said, I want you to know that it is going to be such a small amount of time in the scope of eternity until you see your daughter and sons and husband again. This is so hard. It seems so unfair and so sadistically wretched. But this is— in this human life, it is a tiny, tiny fraction of the scope of eternity when you will be together again. And that is the bedrock of faith that is getting my friend through this catastrophe.

I happen to believe that.

I happen to believe that too. And imagine if she didn't have that. Imagine if she thought that she would never ever see her mother again, ever. That would be a crippling thing to live with. So I think it's easy—

that's what the atheist believes. That's why I asked them, well, I hope you're right or wrong.

You know, I love God. The reason I love God is because I feel like he's given me a divine toolkit. It's so cool. Like, I, before, for instance, I, you know, something that is a fixture of my life now, do not fear. That is, I learned from you, the most repeated line.

I learned that from Rabbi Woznika.

Rabbi Woznika. That is like, If you adopt that, you are thriving. So that's why I love God. I love God because I'm so appreciative of what he's given me, but I actually love God because I'm appreciative of not so much the external things or like the talk show or the this or that, though I certainly am, but the internal toolkit that he's given me to survive life. Do you love God?

I can't say I do, but do you know what the biggest single argument— because I just think in terms of reason, it's the way I'm built. I don't take credit for it, I don't get blamed for it, but here is a rational argument that I present to myself. For loving God. That— and I alluded to it earlier— that there is a commandment to love God. That's in Deuteronomy, and Moses is the divine author, so to speak, combination of God and Moses who wrote Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy means Deutero- Deuteronomy was second, so it's the second law. It's Moses's review of the rest of the Torah. And the fact that God/Moses— not that Moses is God, God and/or Moses— tells us to love God does make God lovable to me.

Hmm, wow. Why?

Because God knows it's hard. So two things resonate to me. One, God himself understands it is not easy to love me, just as it's not easy to love the stranger, and I told you to love the stranger. It's hard to love me, and I'm telling you to love me. The other part is Moses and/or God thought it's pretty important to love God.

Why?

Because it's so easy not to, and then just throw them out.

Yeah, well, you following God, I think, requires a bit of love of God. I don't think that you can just follow something that you don't love. You can respect people or things that you don't love.

Yeah, well, that's right.

Incorporating God into your life, especially to the extent that you have, I think that there's a part of you that loves God, a big part of you.

I hope you're right. I, I don't, I don't directly relate to it.

Well, here's another thing.

Wait a minute, Sean has a question. Is obedience more important than love? Yes. But here, yes. Of course it's true. I love God, but I don't— but I don't do what he says. And by the way, there's a lot of people who are like that, I'm sorry to say. Oh, of course, there are a lot of religious people who say, oh, I love God, I love God. And then— and then they— they treat their fellow human being dishonestly. It's— it's going to be one of the sermons of my— of my High Holy Day services. How do we explain unethical religious people. It's starting to haunt me again. It haunted me when I wrote The Nine Questions at the— at your— exactly your age, 24. And it— I've sort of, you know, it's always been present but not obsessive. I'm now obsessing over it. Why are so many religious people rotten?

A lot are, that's for sure. A lot are.

It doesn't it puzzle you? Yeah, we should talk about that another time. It's another subject, but it's— I often think when I meet, whether it's Christian or Jew, I go, wait, how do you— how are you treating this, this person this way? And, and, and you're religious. I don't, I don't— it's bizarre to me. That I don't expect religious people to be sinless. I'm not an idiot. But this gratuitous corruption and, and, or, or, I mean, it's really worthy. I don't want to get into it because I do want to get into it, but I don't want to get into it now because it's too big a subject. How do religious people do bad things? I don't mean sin. I mean really bad things, okay? Not weak things that, that, that sin is the result of weakness. You know, a religious man had an affair and he, because he was, he was weakened by his sex drive on a business trip, okay? I, I, that's not a puzzle to me. But there, you know, who molesting a child and you're religious How the hell do you think they're not really religious? Well, okay, so this is the great, great question. Okay, if that's true, then this is my argument to Christians who believe at the, um, that it's all faith. I don't believe Christians believe that, but they wouldn't be—

they're not really faithful.

Okay, but how do you— how do you know that? Because of their behavior.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

So then the Christian, even the Christian who says it's— it's salvation is through faith alone, is saying, but I, I know you don't have faith by how you act.

Well, no offense to that Christian, but that Christian doesn't understand that faith without works is dead, right?

Okay, that, that— well, you know, Luther wanted that, uh, Book of James removed from the New supplement. Did you know that?

I did know that.

That's a cool one. Anyway, that is another subject.

Well, I—

we're closing in, so just—

I know, I understand. Well, this is a close-in, but it's also for another episode, an open-up. But I, I think I— and look, trust me, I am well aware, easy for me to say with my life, I get it. But I have—

it's not easy for you to say. I, I give you more credit than that. You struggle with the problem of an evil world. And that is true. It's not—

and I, I have seen— I have stared down the ugly face of evil. You have no idea how many times. Okay, I have. So I appreciate you're giving me that credit, but never— I have, I have an abundantly blessed life compared to us.

That's correct.

So, um, but I have really seen that that this world is actually an act of love. I know that sounds so bizarre, but God gave us freedom. He gave us free will to mess— I mean, even if you think of somebody dying in a car accident, it is a horrifically sad thing. But in a way, it's showing that God is not just like the puppeteer who is pulling the strings. Part of the, the buy-in of this world is that you are affected by other people's free will and other people are affected by your free will.

Did we do an hour on luck or not?

We might have. I don't know if we have gone into it because you're on my side.

Then there is luck in life.

Yes. I mean, but there are like everybody is. I remember on this trip I was asking them, you know, all these religious people I was with, why is my sister autistic?

And no, no, I want my dad— because I have a stepson who's autistic, but there's, there's no comparison in the amount of pain.

Yes.

Your sister was given versus my stepson, who was— it was somewhat of a joy, right?

And I was asking them this question, and, you know, not to expose my family history too much, but there is— my grandmother took this experimental drug in the 1950s that ended up affecting my mother's ability to carry a child healthily. And that is what they believed caused her autism. And so what they were saying is it was, it was the, the, the actions of your, your grandmother. And that doesn't mean your grandmother should be blamed, but it is the— it is human actions that lead sometimes to catastrophe. And I have to say, there's a weird comfort in that. Because again, it's like, okay, we chose to be in this world. God has given us a toolkit through the Torah and the Beatitudes and all of these things of how to deal with it. And the rest of it is really freedom to do good, to do evil, to be affected by good and be affected by evil. And that people go, oh, well, why, why did God make a world like this in the first place? Well, what is the alternative, that we're enslaved automatons? That were like a wind-up doll.

I forgot the thinker. There was a— I don't know, was it Leibniz?

Yes, well, yes, I love Leibniz.

Okay, so I don't know if it was him.

He wrote The Odyssey in 1710. See, folks, no, it's such a good— it's so good.

Your average 24-year-old does not know that.

That's a really good book.

All right, uh, so is he the one? I don't know, but He might have been who said his argument was this is the best possible world. You're right, that was him.

Yep.

Yeah. So that's a very interesting— I deal with that a lot. God could not make a world without malaria. I mean, that, that's in effect what he's saying. God could not make a world where until the most recent past, half your children died before the age of 5.

What do you think about that?

I don't have an answer. I don't have an answer. What can I say? I don't— I don't— I'm going to say whether God could have made a better world.

You know how I sort of view it, sort of view it with Adam and Eve, you know, like the horse races or like when somebody opens a door and all the cattle run out. That's sort of how I view it. God's like, okay, he opened the door and all of us ran out. And they're really— and there's— and we have done remarkable things and we have done depraved things.

We should do an hour on the metaphors. I, I think in metaphor.

I think in metaphors too. But, but that's freedom. He let out the, the, the gates and he said, go ahead. I'm going to let you do. And if you believe that, as I do, that this is a small thing in the scope of eternity, that we're only here for 70 and 80 years, I think that changes the whole game.

Say 70, 80, 90, or 100.

That's right.

Oh, God.

Oh, God. I was going off of the average life expectancy. Oh, hey, it shows. I don't think of you in terms of your age. Should take that as a compliment.

Oh, I do. I don't think of me either. In that way, for good reason. Anyway, what was that? If people enjoyed this conversation, they should— oh, so we did do with Locke episode 120. What number is this? Okay, all right. This was, this was This was precious.

Yes. Please let us know your thoughts. You can email me at julie@julie-hartman.com and follow me on Instagram and Twitter @julierhartman. Dennis on Instagram @thedennisprager and on Twitter at— is your Twitter Dennis Prager? Go to DennisPrager.com and PragerU. Shalom, everyone. This was really fun.

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