Buy Into Life

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello everybody, the Dennis and Julie podcast. I'm Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman.

You're both You said—

is that what I said? I really did say that.

You said, I'm Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. Well, it's kind of—

oh yeah, no, it sounded like it is kind of true. That is correct.

By the way, I'm sorry, Dennis.

Oh my gosh, dude, I can't believe what— Julie, that you would have left a napkin there like that, right?

Yes, it was definitely in my territory. Oh yeah.

Hello everybody, what number is this?

Probably, uh, what do you mean number?

No, not probably. By the way, we should, we should break out something on, uh, on the 100th. What, what are we up to, Sean? We're closing. I know we're closing in on 100, that's why I said we should do something for the 100th. What, what are we? Oh, I see. Okay, we're closing in on 100. Very nice. So, Jules, I said to you I had nothing pressing on my brain and you said you had something.

Yes. And I want to say before we go into that, that we never rehearse or—

Oh, that's my dear. That is an understatement.

Never.

Julie shows up and as she said, really, pre-show should be videoed.

It really?

Yeah.

Yes, it's absurd.

It is largely absurd. That is correct. So today I made her day. Oh, oh yes, I, I, this, I'll just share something about Julie before she gets into whatever topic she wants. So Julie, Julie and I are very, very similar. So I mean, it's, it's touching to me actually. Uh, uh, here is a difference. Julie is a germaphobe. And I am a germophile.

Yes, the Daily Mail reported.

That's right, the world knows. That's right, it went worldwide.

Yes, and lick them.

Yeah, well, that's right, the lick they added. But yes, uh, that's— it's a very interesting thing. Does germophobia come with a, a whole bunch of other traits, or is it independent? In other words, is it related to anything else in you? It's an interesting question. When, when a person has an idiosyncrasy, and that is idiosyncrasies— not everybody has— I have idiosyncrasies, everybody does. But does your idiosyncrasy stand on its own, unrelated to the rest of you?

It's a very good question, it really is. But I don't think what I do is idiosyncratic.

Of course not.

I really don't.

Nobody thinks their idiosyncrasies are idiosyncrasies.

Okay, well, you know what's great?

Perfect.

You know what's great? I will admit I have some idiosyncrasies, but that's not one of them.

Okay, so the fact—

let's tell what I do and then the audience will decide.

That's correct. Go ahead.

Why don't you go ahead? Okay, this is like doing the email.

So, uh, it's an interesting question of what was, what was the Oh yes, okay, here it is. Ready, ready, folks? So we have pistachio nuts here. It's, it's sort of our snack of choice.

Yes.

Julie will pour a bunch of pistachio nuts into a napkin lest it apparently touch human hands, including her own.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that's normal. Every— wait, wait. Okay. And then will not pick one up or two or three and put them in her mouth. She will bite them, lick them, lift them with her mouth from the napkin. But they— I don't care that she doesn't think that's idiosyncratic. That is worth the price of admission to today's broadcast.

Okay, I admit That is what I do. Dennis Prager brings in—

wait, wait, do you admit that that's an idiosyncrasy?

Okay, I do admit, sort of, but also no, because let me explain why I do that.

I'm politely listening.

Okay, so yes, Dennis has these really good pistachios. By the way, this— we're not sponsoring them, but we should. They're called Wonderful Pistachios. I hated pistachios. He introduced me to these, and they're chili roasted things, okay? And this is important because when they're chili roasted pistachios, the chili roast is so important that you want all of it. And if you pick it up with your hands, it's going to rub off on your hands. That's one reason. So I literally, I put it on the paper towel and I reach down and I like put one on my tongue and then I eat it. That's, that's like part of the reason. You're just smiling because you know the audience is gonna think I'm nuts. Okay, wait. Part of the reason is to get the whole chili flavor, which is the best part. Here's the second reason. Do you know how many doorknobs are in this studio? I gotta swipe in, pull a door. I gotta go into their studio, pull a door, go to that door, pull a door, go to this door, pull a door. I know, I work with all men. You guys are heathens. You don't wash your hands.

You guys, I wash my hands.

Okay, well, don't— Sean, men in general don't. And I, and I don't know how many times people are disinfecting. So I'm in this studio, the bathroom's way the hell over there. There's no hand sanitizer. What am I going to do after just touching 4 doorknobs? Reach into the pistachio thing, put it in my hand and eat it? Do I want to get an E. coli infection?

My dear listener and viewer, I have never felt as vindicated. In an argument in my life.

I am telling you, there are going to be listeners who will agree with me.

I know. And, and they're probably going to be women overwhelmingly, that they are idiosyncratic. Doorknobs bothering you about germs?

It's flu season. It's flu season. I was just talking with one of our sales reps who has the flu.

But they're not— they're not transmitted by via doorknobs.

What? Really? They don't chew and then they open the door?

Then it's right. That's correct. Anyway, how many people, seriously, even men, how many of them sneeze into their hand? Oh, I don't know.

I've seen men do weird stuff.

Men do weird stuff. That's a given. Sneeze into their hand?

Yeah.

Harvard's logic is completely— Uh-huh. Yes, he's blaming this on Harvard. He may have a point.

No, I don't.

I touch doorknobs and reaches it. I would eat the peanuts off the doorknob.

No, no, this is important. I see him do this. You take the pistachio thing and you, and you shake it and you put it onto paper towels. I've never seen you reach into it.

I reach into it when you're not here. Crap. Now you won't eat it. Now she won't eat it.

Well, we just ordered so many pistachios, we're fine from now on. But you're gonna still see me do it 'cause my hands may be dirty.

Okay, all I, yes, listen, all I wanna say is you are a germaphobe and that's, that you, listen, we all have our idiosyncrasies. The amount of time I spend on the internet.

Looking at fountain pens.

And at reviews of camera lenses. Is, is probably idiosyncratic.

Okay. Let me ask you another question. Do you wipe down your seat on a plane before you get on it?

So it's a good question. I sometimes do.

Why?

Because a lot of guys are slobs and will pee on the seat.

Will pee on the seat? Are you—

what if they don't lift the seat? If they don't lift the seat? I got a lot of men are pigs. I agree with that. I just never saw any.

Wait, are you talking about the airplane seat or the bathroom?

I'm talking about airplane bathroom. I thought that's what you meant.

No, no, I asked her about the seat.

Oh, I can't believe it. Is she kidding? Would I wipe down my seat in an airplane?

Yes.

Why the hell would I do that?

Why the hell wouldn't you? You know how many people are on that seat?

Wait a minute. Well, there are a lot of people. Do you do that in a movie theater? Do you do that? Did you do that in that seat?

I don't go to movie theaters.

Okay.

Because this chair is new. No offense, when I sit in your chair, I've got to like— you, you have like pistachio, like—

okay, if there is pistachio stuff there, I understand that. Can we call them E. coli from now on? Colios?

E. coli. I said I get E. coli, which is totally the wrong thing to write.

All right, look, I'm not going to spend that much time. All I just want to say is it's fine. One of the things people have to understand is how unique every human being is. The big macro— I always look for a big macro lesson. I'll give you a serious, interesting, serious example.

Okay.

So I've loved classical music since high school. I mean love. I'm talking about if there is such a thing as love, I love classical music. It frequently tears me up. I love it. And I remember my dear, dear friend Joseph since high school to this day. He was an extremely bright man. I co-authored two books with him. My first two books are co-authored with him. And when I would put on classical music when he would visit my apartment in Manhattan, we both lived in New York at the time, and, well, he still lives in New York, but he came out to LA for years. And I would play classical music and I would look at him and I'd realize he wasn't hearing a thing. It registered zero on his 1 to 100 passion scale. It had no effect. So I had to, I had to draw one of two conclusions. Either he's not as deep as I think he is, because if he was really deep, he would at least respond. Or it has nothing to do with it. It's its own world, any more than everyone who does respond to classical music is deep, which is not true either. So that was— see, by the way, this is just an insight into my own life. From the— my instinct has always been draw a conclusion from what just happened. And so Watching Joseph not have any reaction as I am sitting there almost shaking from passion made me realize, well, this is not an indicator of a person's depth. And then I realized, and of course a lot of quite superficial people love classical music. By the way, it's depressing to me. I wish there was a one-to-one correlation. You're deep. You are really deep. And you know I know that. It's why we do a podcast together. But, you know, classical music's not a passion of yours. And now it might be, I don't know, maybe I could develop it in you. But I don't even care. It doesn't— it's not on my agenda vis-à-vis you. But that's a great example. Whereas, you know, it was very— you know what depressed me? I mean, boy, talk about serious. Here's a super serious You know, that leading Nazis loved classical music. And I thought, oh, it was like, you know, when you're a kid, you have idealistic visions of life, and then one after another sort of shatter with reality.

Yes.

I really believed for some period that Schubert and Mozart and Bach and Beethoven ultimately made you a better person. And then I realized it doesn't really work that way. It's like tattoos. Wow. It's sort of like tattoos.

That's a great example.

It is, because I've always associated it with— I don't know, loser may be too strong a term, but, you know, impulsive perhaps. Well, that's a sweet way. Somewhere between loser and impulsive. And then over time— well, not just because of Aaron. I've always— I'm objective. Yes, I'm not a fan of tattoos, but I no longer associate it with any other trait in the person. I do if it's on the neck or face.

I do. Yes.

But otherwise— and I'll tell you one of the— forgetting my son, who's remarkably wonderful, as you know. And I don't say this because he's my son. And everybody knows that I don't look big on that, but my point is about tattoos, not about him specifically as my son. But forgetting him, the number of people who walk over to me for a selfie at airports who have tattoos and who, you know, I love your work, we have, you know, I watch your, you know, I watched you and Jordan Peterson on Exodus, or I watch your fireside chat and, you know, we got to save this country. I, looking at a person with some obvious exceptions like neck tattoos or face tattoos or, you know, gangbanger garb, I now assume nothing. And so all of this comes from your idiosyncratic behavior with pistachio nuts. But it really is worth One of the nice things to do in life is ask yourself, what can I learn from what I just observed?

Yes.

And, and so that is an example.

It makes life so interesting too.

Oh yes. And don't you want to— don't you want to understand it?

Totally. Oh gosh. Okay, so you know what's so funny about Dennis and Julie? We never rehearse. We never even talk about what we're going to bring up on the air. At most, what we'll say is what happened today. You see said, I don't have an idea. And I said, okay, well, I do. Or, you know, the opposite, you'll go, I have something I want to bring up. But what's so funny is, this could not have been a more perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about. How interesting, where I feel like I am in a just thrilling part of my life right now.

I'm happy to hear that.

And it's really big. And of course, it's, you know, in large part because I I love this show. I love my show. I love, you know, there are parts of it that are really challenging being a single, trying to make it in media woman in Los Angeles with not that many friends. A lot of my friends are in New York. You know, it's not easy all the time. And I talk about that with you a lot, but the word is thrilling. I feel like my life is thrilling and it's not even so much because of my job. It's because of all of the interests and hobbies that I've accumulated outside of my job, but of course are also related to this job because I'm lucky enough to talk them through with you, to talk about them on the show. But I just feel like what you just said about wanting to understand life, it is so thrilling to, to go out and understand and talk to people. Talking with your son the other day about addiction was, was eye-opening.

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I was on a plane recently flying back from Tahoe, and there was someone next to me with a tattoo. This is why I said you could not have teed it up better. And they were talking to me all about why they got their tattoos, and I was developing these kind of theories. And I just want to scream out to people, like, life has endless opportunities for it to be interesting if you just open your eyes and see it. And I used to think life was boring. I used to think that the kind of range of things that you could explore were narrow, or I thought, oh, I, you know, I would never be the type of person who would listen to classical music, or I'd never, I'm just not interested in that. And I hope I'm making sense, but I've kind of pushed myself to become interested in these things or to try them out. And now my life is so much more thrilling and, vast for it. I'll say this one thing and then I'll shut up with my spiel. Do you ever fear you're going on too long, or do you never have that?

I have so trained myself not to go on too long when I'm interviewed, for example. I mean, if I do my own show, I'm supposed to talk, but right where I am in dialogue, I'll answer you at greater length when you finish.

I am always fearing. Yes, talking for too long.

By the way, it is a Everyone should have that fear.

You know why I have that fear?

Good fear.

Because I see other people who drone on.

Exactly.

And I think I never want to be—

you hit it on the nose.

Oh my gosh.

I ordered this for you, by the way. I just want you to know it's the chili roasted ones.

This is a true—

I know this is a real ad that was not paid for.

This is a truly unique episode. Can you open this for me, please?

Yeah. So go on. Yeah.

Can you get me the paper towel?

Do we have an air purifier here? Okay, go ahead.

Yeah. Okay. Here's— okay. Perhaps I'm not going on too long. It's just in my head, but I'm always hearing that.

It's a good feeling.

I look at other people and I know— don't you know that feeling of being in the audience and everyone's like, oh my God, this person needs to shut up? I look at that and I think, I will never be that person. So good.

Hold on.

And this isn't it. Oh, you didn't get it on camera. That's, that's not idiosyncratic. That's what everybody does.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

I was not worried that it was. Go on.

Last night, I, before bed, was reading this book that I bought on Amazon, which, by the way, everyone should get. And it's called 1001 Paintings That Everyone Should See Before They Die.

Oh, is it good?

So good.

Does Robert Florczak like it? That's my only question.

I talk about it with Robert and he, I don't think he has the book, but I send him photos and he's so cool. 'Cause by the way, Robert Florczak, for those who don't know, what the heck? How do you not know him? He is a—

Watch his videos on PragerU. They're phenomenal on art.

He is a prolific artist, art historian. He was a musician. He's just like a jack of all trades and a dear, dear, dear friend. Thanks to you. And so I will send him photos from this art book and ask him about the artist. And then, you know, he'll help me understand more about the style. It's great. But anyway, everyone should get this book, 1001 Paintings You Have to See Before You Die. And it goes through art starting in like, like 1,000 years ago, and they divide it by time period. And it is so cool. And I'm just flipping through it and I'm looking at it. And I used to think I had to be an expert on all of these pieces of art, but now I really just look at it and kind of get a sense of wonder at seeing the artistic mastery and the colors and the shading. And I had this like moment last night as I was reading this art book where I thought, Julie, 5 years ago, if she could see me right now, she never would have believed it. I never thought I would be the type of person to, for fun, look at an art book. My dear mother used to take me to museums growing up, and I would sit, you know, on those like chairs in the middle and just go, oh my God, when can we leave? But it's because I feel like I have this mentality, and I just want to share it with everyone because I never thought I would get here. It's— I'm not touting it as I'm so great. Everyone can do this. There's nothing special about me. I never thought I would get to this place.

This is a life-changing subject. By the way, I just want to show you how much I think about you. Yeah, I didn't buy the big package. Oh, I bought a box of little packages, so it is pure, untouched by Dennis or any other human.

So here's what I'll do because of this. Yeah, this is what I'll do. I'll avoid the, uh, the paper towel thing, right? Go like this. Ready?

Oh no, oh no.

Perfect. I don't have to touch it.

God Almighty.

What?

He said you did touch the package.

No, I ripped off the top.

Yes, exactly, Sean. No, no, package doesn't count. Yes, that's irrelevant. Yeah, they are, they're great. So let me tell you, you will love this. It is a— have I— did I tell you what I said to my, my boys? When they were kids and they would say that, I'm bored.

Mm-hmm.

You're boring. Yeah. No, you're not bored. You're boring. And by the way, that ended it. They never said it again. But it is— every parent should say that to any kid, whether the kid is 5 or 15. If your kid says they're bored, the— that means— that literally does mean they're boring. That's, that's exactly what it means. You can be interested in an infinite number of subjects and you're bored. You have before you— I mean, if you lived in, in the Middle Ages in a rural area with no access to books, uh, obviously no videos, and, uh, you were in remote and basically every day was with, with sheep.

Yep.

Okay, even then I would say you have to develop some interest, whatever that can be. But we don't have that. That's not an issue.

And you know what's fascinating, too? We live in this— we have a paradox where on the one hand, we have unprecedented access to civilization's greatest works of art, architecture, music.

That's right.

I mean, think about this for a minute. We can go online. Or if you know, and people go, oh, only people with computers can do that. You can go to a public library, go on the computer and look up Mozart. See, I'm not well-versed in classical music enough to name a— what is it like? Sonata number 5, whatever. Beethoven. You can Google that in 5 seconds. You click on it, you're listening to it.

Well, not only that, 27 versions of it.

Totally. You can, you can go, huh, I would really like to read Dickens. Order it, the next morning it's at your doorstep.

That's right. Or it could be read to you.

Yes, it's— that's right. It can be read to you as you're walking. We have— I mean, think of even just 200 years ago, if you wanted to listen to Mozart, you had to go to a concert.

What do you mean 200 years ago? 100 years ago.

True. That's right. You had to, you had to go to a concert or you had to know someone who knew how to play it and go to their home and have a piano.

That's why everybody has a piano.

We have all of this access. And yet, can you imagine if people Hundreds of years ago, 100 years ago, people knew Beethoven better than they do today. Imagine if someone could tell them, hey, in X amount of years from now, people are going to have all of this at their fingertips. Those people from that time would predict that all of us would be, you know, classical music art aficionados, have the most rich lives. And yet we are bored. We are numb. We have— we are dull as people. And I have— I just, I feel like I've discovered this secret, and I so desperately want to just, as I say, scream out to people that life's opportunities to learn, to enrich yourself, to be fascinated, they are so vast if you just buy in. Just buy in.

Dennis and Julie on depth?

I don't know, maybe.

Did we, Sean? Did we?

I mean, I'm sure we've touched on it. I don't know if we've done a whole show on it.

Well, um, I thought we did a fair amount. It doesn't matter to me, but I'm only mentioning it because it's such a big theme of mine. And I did a fireside chat on the subject. It's not something that people aspire to. There were two words that are basically dead that were very operative when I grew up. Mature. You know, you should act more mature. I can't imagine how many parents say that to their kids today. I think it's close to zero. Maturity is almost boring. The idea, the very word is boring or deep. You know, that's shallow, right? What's shallow? What are you talking about? There's shallow water. There's not a shallow life. So you're right. You look. It's one of the interesting things about our very, very deep, deep friendship and love, which is obvious to people, is aside— it's truly, this is aside from that, just on a, you know, a non-subjective basis, non-emotional basis. So I'm seeing life through a 24-year-old's eyes in addition to everything else. And so it's— I wouldn't have thought to make that point because it's so long-standing in me, but I realize, of course, you have to make that point. This is why it's important that aside from Dennis and Julie, that someone my age and someone your age have a dialogue, because somebody listening who's your age will go, wow, I never thought of that. Somebody listening my age will go, of course I know that. But, but people need to hear that. Yes, you, if you see, here's my theory. I've again, Theory 84493, subsection A. So the reason that the things you mentioned— Dickens, Shakespeare, 1,000 artworks, Mozart— it doesn't excite the vast majority of young people is it doesn't excite.

Yes, but it's so exciting.

No, I agree. We're going to come to that. I just want to deal on the excitement issue for one moment. If it doesn't have an adrenaline rush, then it, it isn't worth it. It's not pursued, right? This is a very bad thing. This is equivalent to drug addiction. Adrenaline addiction. It's something I have been thinking about for the last few years. That is what so many people in your generation and younger rely on. And, and the problem with it is very simple. The next dose has to be greater, right? What, what, what produced an adrenaline rush today won't a month from now.

Mm-hmm. That is so true. And I think another thing that is really important in this is that young people especially lack good examples of deep people. And that is desperately what I am trying to be for my generation. And that doesn't mean I think I'm better than anybody else. That doesn't mean I'm more— I think I'm special or unique. I am telling you, 5 years ago me, I would have laughed if the notion— if someone had told me that I would be reading before bed in 1001 paintings you have to see before you die, I'd be like, all right, yeah, no, I'm going to be watching Real Housewives before I go to bed. And by the way, I still do that, you know. It's not that I'm—

you're allowed to do both, of course.

And I'm a nuanced person, you know. I think sometimes we, we look at deep— at least when I was younger, I'd kind of look at really deep people as almost like cartoon characters, as like they go to the opera and then they pull out the, you know, Sonnet Number 79 to read aloud to their wife by the fire before they you know, I don't know, do their sketches for their art class. Like, I used to think of them as like this kind of austere and boring and boring and a little bit, to use a good word today, idiosyncratic, head-in-the-sky kind of person. But I have been so blessed beyond measure to have examples of my life, perhaps the biggest one sitting in front of me, of deep people. And I feel like I've again discovered this secret that doesn't make me better than anybody else. I've just discovered it, and I, and I feel like it's my vocation in life to pass it on to people, to, to, to tell them. And the word I kept using this episode, it's just the word that keeps coming to mind, is buy-in. Buy into life. You know, we— you just mentioned, and it's so true, that we have all of these alternatives. We have all of these forces that are the opposite of buying into life. They numb us, they distract us. Think about what people do. And this is— and I know people, a lot of my friends, and I absolutely adore them. I am blessed to have great friends. But I look at them— I was with a group of friends, you know, this past weekend, and we're all like sitting on the couch and everybody's like this.

Is that right?

Yeah, everybody's like this. And there's some— and I used to be like that.

Wow.

So I'm not wagging my finger. I used to be like that.

No, no, no. No, that's not a matter of wagging the finger. It's— that is a very sad—

and they're going, look at this video, I just DM'd you this video. And it's like, no, buy in, buy in. And you have to train yourself. I got rid of my personal social media 2 years ago when I turned— oh, so I guess it was like a year and a half ago. I turned— when I turned 23, or less than, whatever, it doesn't matter. When I turned 23, I got rid of my social media because I got my social media when I was 13, my Instagram. And turning 23, 10 years later, I realized that I am no iota more intelligent, deeper, happier, happier, mature for having spent the past 10 years on Instagram. So I said adios and I viewed it as an investment in myself later, like almost like investing in a stock that doesn't look promising now, but in 10 to 20 to 30 years it's going to go to heaven. I thought, get rid of that and just start developing habits that are pushing you more towards buying into life. And getting more away or further away, excuse me, from social media. I'll tell you another thing in the spirit of honesty. I totally quit weed. In college, I used to smoke weed, not frequently, but you know, every once in a while as I would drink in college. And weed is a very, very— the reason why I'm being open about this is because I see this as a big problem in my generation. Weed is a very enticing and fun escapism. And it is seen as something that is a better alternative to the other hard drugs, which I've never done in my life. But it's seen as a better alternative because we've been fed this myth that weed is somehow, you know, safe and you can't get addicted to it. But I found myself when I would be on it getting lazier. I would find that I would really enjoy the feeling of being on it. And I tried to get myself away from that too. And I just want to tell people, if you do it, if you do it slowly but surely, and that doesn't mean you have to become a nun. I still drink occasionally. I still, you know, watch my trashy TV shows. But if you start moving your life in a deeper direction, slowly but surely, it is going to lead to a far greater and more thrilling outcome than you could ever imagine. And I'm just— I'm basking in that greatness right now. I'm so grateful that I've done this. Did any of that make sense?

It all made sense. The reason that I— there's this moment of silence is I have so much to say. I know I'm trying to figure out which I should say.

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So one of the things that I've noticed with young people, and it's— it well precedes our meeting. I mean, it's— I've felt this for decades now. There is— here's my word. This is the perfect word to describe what I see in vast numbers of young Americans and have for decades. The word is jaded.

Yeah. But it's a learned jadedness. We're not actually jaded. Oh, I think we adopt it as a personality trait.

I think that both are true. Oh, I think it's genuine jaded. That is the reason that saying such things sounds so boring. Hey, listen, you know what? Great art is really exciting. They, they, they would look at you and please, how do you compare that to an Instagram video, or, uh, right, you know, a movie. I mean, or whatever, whatever else brings them excitement. That, that's— it is jaded. And you know who's not jaded? It's very interesting. There are basically two groups. Obviously there are exceptions in everything, but as a generalization The, the same— the trait I most identify with homeschooled kids is that they're not jaded.

And religious.

Dramatic. The other is religious, that's correct. But, but the, the— it's amazing to me when I'm with homeschooled kids, they actually, they have this bright-eyed view of the world. They're so excited by trees. I mean, which sounds ludicrous to the jaded.

I know I sound like, like I've been like touched by God, and I, I think I have actually. But I— in other words, I think I probably sound very kind of happy schmappy. And no, trees are so beautiful. Yeah, like they're— just look around. I mean, they're very— they're cinematic. They're gorgeous the way, like, we're so lucky we walk outside and we have all of the mountains and trees and clouds. Like, basically, like, I feel like God is giving us a cinematic experience in our everyday lives and we're just like, come on, buy in, buy into life.

For most of my career, I have advocated as New Year's approaches 'Cause people say, oh, New Year's resolutions, which I believe in. And I would, I say, let me suggest one to you. I've been suggesting the same one. I mean, I have many, but this one I have been consistent. So take a half hour away from video watching, whether the video is television, movies, Instagram, whatever it is. Drop that for a half hour. For that half hour, just study a foreign language. And it doesn't matter. Throw a dart at a list of languages, and I don't care if it's Portuguese or Laotian. It's irrelevant. Do it for a year. Or, so that was a language. Or take up a musical instrument. A half hour a day, clarinet. Okay, you take up the clarinet. Clarinets are not expensive. Clarinet is, is, is easy to begin with, so it doesn't matter which instrument, obviously, but that I'm just using that. And, uh, obviously get a teacher for— usually for 50 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever a lesson is. Then I, I've said the same thing for decades. Next year at this time, if you do that, will you be happier because you learned a language and/or an instrument? Or had you not and just continued giving that half hour to videos? I mean, it's a rhetorical question. Of course we know the answer. You will be happier if you could play Happy Birthday on the clarinet, if you could say, hello, how are you, I'm an American in Laotian.

Look, you're right. There is no question you're right. I just so know the way that other people think and to an extent the way that I used to think.

And that is—

and it's just, well, okay, I'm not going to be happier having learned. Well, what's the utility?

Oh, so that's interesting. That's what I mean by the value of having a dialogue with someone.

I don't think they would be convinced that, oh, I'll be happier in a year from now.

Okay. See, that's That's really important for me to hear.

I think they would smile and nod and go, okay, this, you know, that's your thing. Telling me that's your thing.

Yeah.

And you know, you mean well, and but that's, that's not my thing.

That's really important for me to hear. That's right. That's not my thing. See, what you and I believe in is there's such a thing as everyone's thing.

That's what I used to think. Oh gosh, I'm so glad we're talking about this right now. I used to think music, art, reading classic books, it's not my thing.

I used to think I was incapable.

Yes, I used to think I was incapable of being interested in it and I was incapable of being good at it. Good at reading, good at, you know, looking at or appreciating art. I just totally put that in a box aside as not my thing. And I think a large reason for that, in addition to these distractions and these alternatives which are thrown at us every single day, all day, social media, weed stores on every corner, alcohol, video games, pornography, you know, etc. I think also I can speak especially in my case. I don't know if this is the case for every student, but my high school and to an extent college, but college was better. Education was very focused on specialization, especially in English classes and in art classes, that it kind of killed— not kind of, did kill— the joy of learning and appreciating these great works for their eternal meaning and wisdom. So in English class, for instance, in high school, we would look at a book. And by the way, I think a lot of high schools assign like way too many books or they have you read them too fast. And I'm all for rigorous academic standards, but you really do need time with these books to let them sink in, especially when you're in high school. But I remember we would sit and circle similes and circle metaphors and double entendres and the symbols. And I remember reading Jane Eyre, which is now one of my favorite books, And I hated Jane Eyre. I remember sitting in class, like I wanted to throw it across the room at the wall. That was how visceral my hatred was because we would sit there and I remember my teacher, and I say this with respect to my— I've had fabulous teachers in my life and I know many have meant very well too. But I remember my teacher talking about the moors. The moors are like lakes or rivers or something in Jane Eyre. And what do the moors indicate about Jane's Emotions. And I remember sitting there going, I don't effing understand this book. I don't effing understand what the mores mean. I don't care what the mores mean. I just want to be done. Let me just, you know, get through this class, write my essay, and be done with this stupid book that I'll never read again. And that is such a shame.

They didn't deal with the book, they dealt with how it was composed.

Yes.

So, you know, that's very interesting. I had an an analogous experience with music. So I really considered majoring in music because it was such a deep passion, as it has remained in my life. And I took music courses, and then I realized in college, I don't want to major in this. I won't love it as much. I'm not interested in why Mozart modulated from E-flat to see. I'm interested in the music, not the vocabulary. Some people are, and they should be, and we need such people, and that's great. But I want to emotionally react. I don't want to preoccupy myself with musical theory.

Yes, I'm so glad you said that because It's, it's so true. I mean, you just, you ruin it for the person.

For most people. Yes, that's correct.

And what I wish, and if I sent my son or daughter to school and they walked away from class not being able to identify a simile or a metaphor or talk about any of the symbols in the book, but they walked away and they said, oh my gosh, Great Expectations by Charles Dickens, so interesting. I mean, misshapishness. So weird character.

That's right. And what you really want them to come back with is, oh, I want to read another book.

Yes. And what did this teach you? You know, did this open up an avenue of exploration and wonder in your life? Because that's really why authors wrote the book. As John Agresto, who's a great educator, I had him on my show, wrote in his book Death of Learning, which I have given as gifts to people going —college, maybe like 2, 3 years ago. Interesting. Spectacular book. He talks about this very subject. He says Hawthorne didn't write to be analyzed. Oh, great.

That is what a great line.

Do you think Mozart, you know, constructed his symphonies so that you could go—

that I tell you my cellist story? No. Oh, you will love it. This was a great moment in my life. So again, my love of classical music is as consistent a love as I have had in my life. And in fact, I really want to dedicate one of my books to Haydn and Bach and Beethoven. Why not? I didn't know them, but they have given me so much. Oh yes. Sean wants me to tell the listeners that she's eating pistachios. That's the noise you're hearing in the background. No, no, no, you don't have to be sorry. And I don't want you to think I'm not listening to you. I am not worried.

The problem with these is that you can't stop. Yes, I'm almost done.

I mean, it really does sound like an ad. It's very funny. I'm sorry, one sec. Yes. So I— anyway, so listen to this. This is a— this is an awesome story. Uh, because it's true and because it's exactly what you were just saying. So I, in college, I went to a concert, a cello recital, just a cellist, and, and I, I'm not sure if there was a pianist to accompany him, but it's— it was a cello recital. And I remember the cellist, Janos Starker, S-T-A-R-K-E-R, one of the great cellists of the last generation. He's, he's moved on, obviously. So in this, you'll find interesting— I, for— I went to a concert virtually every single week of the year, usually orchestral but sometimes solo. You could walk backstage when I was a kid. No one asked a question. Wow. You just went. It was a different world. It was a I knew then I was lucky, but now I really realize it. Anyway, I went backstage to meet the cellist, just to shake his hand and say I love the concert. I'm a kid, he's a middle-aged genius, and that's all. I'm in line, so I'm waiting in line, and I see that over here everybody talking to him is talking to him about cello practice, about about various intricacies of cello playing. I'm next. Hey, young man, what's your name? Dennis Prager. Oh, hi. You a cellist? I go, no. He goes, you're not a cellist? I go, no. What do you play? I'll never forget this. And I said, the phonograph. The phonograph is the old term for record player. That's what I play. The guy, the guy looks at me, he goes, you don't play the cello or any other instrument? I mean, I played accordion, but it was worthless, and piano I was not good at. So I said the photograph. He said, wait, you're here? Why? I said, because I love music and I, I'm like, you're great and I love the cello. And the guy hugged me. Oh, so rare. You're not here to critique cello playing and learn better techniques. You're just here because you love music. He couldn't believe that such a kid existed. And I'm thinking, what's so special about that?

I know, that's—

of course that's why I'm here. I love great music, and you're a great musician. People can look him up. He's made million recordings.

Well, I feel similarly sometimes when you, you know, when I'm talking about your Bible commentary and you are so impressed and happy that I'm taking an interest in it, like, because it's rare for people my age. And I have the same reaction where I'm like, of course I'm taking an interest in it. It's exceptional. But, but unfortunately there, there is a rarity.

So, so I wanna get back to the jaded. Because one of the reasons I have such contempt, anger, even hatred for so many teachers is because they have— they make the kids jaded, which is what they do with, with, what do you call it, story hour, the drag queen, drag queen story hour. You're taking 5-year-olds, criminal.

That to me is not just—

that is criminal. Men in drag.

No, it's— it's that— that really is criminal.

So that's why I said to you, the jadedness is really induced.

Oh, absolutely. You know, I'm glad you brought this up because I think among younger generations and by younger, I literally mean like the kindergartners are through, you know, now up to high school age. I think they are definitely, definitely actually jaded. Yes. My generation, which is a little older, I'm 20, I just turned 24 years old. I think that I've seen that just as victimhood is a kind of in vogue badge to wear, I also think jadedness. Oh, there's no question.

Oh, it is. Yes.

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Well, look, in Latin America, it's common to engage in sexual activity with not just minors, with prepubescent.

Oh, this is so the norm around the world. Yes. And I understand it exists in the United States. But I think, forgive me, I just want to make sure I make this point because I don't want people to think I'm— I think that there's a kind of— and then I would ask ask the people what their assault was. And again, I know this is unpopular, but to me, it didn't constitute something that I would call assault. Might it constitute harassment? Yes. But assault is a big word. And it— and when it is used, it should carry meaning. And I felt— I got this sense like there was this kind of like learned jadedness almost. Or I think these— they thought there was something kind of ennobling or perhaps even cool about talking about—

you're in, you're in the victimized by men, victimized by patriarchy, victimized by toxic masculinity club. I know it's a club.

And I read so much about the routine, aggressive, violent sexual assault that happens to women. And as you say, minors and prepubescent people all around the world, and it just makes me angry. Yeah, you should. The amount that in the United States this is thrown around superfluously. And if someone is actually raped or sexually assaulted, Julie Hartman will be the first one to stand by them.

And I'll be the second.

And I know you will.

But so, so now you know why. So listen to this. So you, do you know the story about my, my wife when she was your age? You told this. Oh yeah, on the show. Waitress. So the manager of the restaurant grabbed her breasts, goes behind her, grabs her breasts. She put his breasts away, continued serving the meal. And I've told this story and I've written it up. The comments, that's— I know they're worth everything. Vicious against my wife.

I've been—

I've been at a party wrong with her that, that she, that she didn't realize she was, she was attacked. That she was a sexual victim, that she made light of that, that she didn't react with horror at her breasts being touched, and they weren't touched under her clothing, over her clothing. By the way, I'm not defending him.

Of course it's a terrible behavior.

In a million years, I would not do that. Of course. It's inconceivable to me. You know, I'll tell you a very interesting way of putting it. It'll mean a lot to you as a woman. It's inconceivable to me on any level, but here's the one that came to my mind. A Prager male doesn't act that way. I got that from my father. I hope I gave that to my sons. I hope they will give it to their sons. And that's not a little thing. That's where, by the way, a father is so important for boys. It is inconceivable to— the— it is. And my father was a real live wire sexually. I've talked about this a lot, but the thought that he would go over to a waitress, go behind her and grab her breasts—

of course you're not defending it.

No, no, no, no, you're not. I'm just— no, no, I No, the point I'm making is it's inconceivable, right? Because we all had— I gave that model to my sons. My father gave that model to me.

Right. Yes. And so back to this jadedness conversation, I think there's a, there's a kind of learned jadedness where people will talk about the instances of discrimination or racism or misogyny that they face.

That's why I said, I think the point you're making in my language, you made it eloquently in your language, is there is sort of an inner club. I too am a victim. Yes.

And so look. And you feel, I mean, I remember sitting in that room feeling like I can't relate to these people. Mm-hmm. You know, there's like, I don't know what to say besides I'm so sorry, which I did, you know, but I felt kind of like an outsider because I felt like, oh my gosh. And, and look, I, I'll be the first to say I've had a very, I've had a challenging life in a lot of ways with, you know, certain family situations that we've talked about specifically with my sister with autism. It hasn't been a rosy, amazing life, but I've had challenges. But I will also admit I've been very privileged. Um, but still I'm sitting there and I'm, the reason why I said that is I'm picturing people going, well, of course you felt like an outsider in that conversation because you are so privileged and you've never gone through that. I recognize that, but that doesn't negate the fact that I was sensing, and these were fellow very privileged people, this kind of almost like in vogue, let me talk about this, my victim experience.

Well, I think, and obviously this is not popular, but I don't care. It's either true or false. The issue in my life is never is it popular or not? It's whether it's true or false. The number of, or the amount of racism that many American Blacks think they experience. So there are two possible responses. There are, I guess, three. One is, yeah, well, there is so much racism. Another is, well, maybe there isn't that much, but who is it for us to judge? If a Black feels he or she experienced racism, then that's all that matters. So I guess it's two different responses, but the second had two parts. So let me tell you this. I don't think I've said on Dennis and Julie, and I'm not sure I've said it to you. On a number of occasions, I have a lot of black listeners, happily.

I know this story.

Oh, you do know it? Yeah. People would call up and they'd say, you know, Dennis, you gotta walk in a man's shoes to know what he experiences. I go, that's true. And I, you know, I really enjoy you. I listen to you. And I'm always touched by that. But I got to tell you, as a Black man, I experience racism every day. Mm-hmm. Do you mean every day, or is that just, you know, is that a matter of speech? He says, no, no, every day. So I ask an innocent question. So I'm just curious, have you experienced racism today? Says, well, the day is not over. I go, okay, what about yesterday? And I always— it's gone, it's happened a lot, so I, I'm, I'm repeating this. And, and it turns out even those saying this acknowledge, well, not every day. Okay, when was the last time you did experience racism from a non-Black. And then I say to them, maybe the per— well, this clerk was rude to me. I go, how do you know the clerk isn't rude to people of every race? How do you know it's because you were Black?

And, you know, sorry. No, no, no.

It's just— it's— I'll give you one more example, forgive me. When I have said, and obviously things are changing tragically beyond sadness, is the saddest thing, but until the very recent past, I have said all of my life, and I'm broadcasting 40 years, folks, I gotta tell you, I'm a Jew, And I, as everybody knows, and I have never experienced antisemitism in all of my life in America. I have elsewhere, but I've never experienced it in America. And the number of Jews who mock me. What is he talking about?

Isn't that your lived experience though? I thought we're supposed to all follow the Jews' lived experience.

They presume I'm living in denial.

I have never faced a day of discrimination as a woman.

Right. Oh yeah. There you go. Well, all right. That's a good example. Never. Because after all, you live in a misogynistic culture. I've never felt disadvantaged. The patriarchy has not sat on your head.

In fact, I've actually felt advantaged for being a woman. Right. So, so here's the thing I wanna make really clear, and I think our listeners know this, but you know, you never know what trolls are listening. I know me and I know you. If someone has really been the victim of an atrocity like sexual assault or racism or any of the things or misogyny, you and I will be the first person, the first and second people, thank you, to stand up and condemn that. Of course. It's a given. The thing that we hate, if I may speak for you, and you did introduce the show today as I'm Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman.

There you go. You can.

I guess I can speak for you. By the law of— what is it? The law of— whatever.

The law of the second law of thermodynamics.

Sure. Let's go with that. Yeah. What we hate is when these things are contrived and people are essentially at— when people claim that they have experienced something that they either didn't or worse than what they really did, because that cheapens the charge of the actual atrocities. And it is contributing to this, this virus of victimhood, which is circulating around and making people so jaded for no reason.

Your own unhappy state.

So let's go back if you don't mind. I really want to get back to this conversation about depth and buying in because I don't, I don't know how we got off on this, but then again, it's, it's Dennis and Julie. We're always getting off on tangents. But what I was making a point about, my English classes and the excessive focus on symbols. Or in another thing, in addition to, you know, literary devices and symbolism that they often do in these English courses, is that they talk about the social context of the book. For instance, Jane Eyre is a societal commentary on the discrimination of women. And Jane Eyre, I remember she— well, I know from the book she moves around to all these different locations. She's first at her aunt's house, and she goes to an orphanage, and then she's a governess, and etc., etc. And I remember talking about that each of the different locations represent, uh, another flavor of misogyny or discrimination against women. And let me tell you, my second time reading Jane Eyre— I call this period of my life my second education because I'm rereading or reading these books that I either read and hated or didn't read I'm reading it the second time around. That is so not the point of Jane Eyre. You have no idea how so not the point of Jane Eyre that is. That's great. And so people, I think, think that they, they think that they're stupid and they think that they don't understand something, like they haven't cracked the code, you know. They think, oh, I could never understand the real meaning of Jane Eyre. Yes, you can. The thing that bothers me so much is when people say like, well, I'm just not a reader. I'm just not smart. I'm, I just can't get that. Yes, you can.

Dennis Prager here with a man I have come to admire for his work. So when I asked him, what do you do? This is the title he gave: Wealth Architect.

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I was taken enough and impressed enough to have you do my work and you have in fact saved me a serious amount of money. CharlesDombek.com/Prager.

When people write into me or when they meet me in person, a lot of the things that I'll hear people say to me, and it truly means a lot to me, is they'll say, Julie, you're so smart. And I really appreciate that. But I have to say, I— it's not that I don't think it's true, but I sort of want to say to them, I'm not as smart as you think I am. I'm smart, but I'm not brilliant. People say to me, oh, you're so brilliant. I'm actually not. I've just learned this. I've taken the time to read, to go back to these books, to kind of explore art, to explore music. I've taken the time to do it and I have figured it out and everyone can learn it. You—

Yeah, no, I'm going to repeat that in a moment. Finish your point.

I lost my train of thought.

No, no, you've trained yourself. You're not brilliant and so on. That was the point you were making. You don't have to be brilliant.

Yes, yes, you don't have to be.

Yes, no, that's exactly—

when people say you're brilliant, it's like, no, I— trust me, I never thought I would be this way.

Average person in Vienna went to a Mozart concert. The guys who during the day were collecting dung from the horses in the streets went to a Mozart concert. You don't have to be as you put it, brilliant, to appreciate brilliant works. That's the point. If you had to be brilliant to appreciate it, they're not great. Yep. That's why whenever a piece of music or art comes with this gigantic explanation, I know it's a piece of crap.

True. I feel sad though, and obviously I'm enough of an optimist to keep fighting, but I'm a bit pessimistic about the, the way this is all going to shake out because people my age especially, we're so used to being on our phones that it's really hard. It's almost like getting off of drugs or getting off of alcohol.

That when we put up originally 5-minute PragerU videos, people say, well, yeah, it would make sense. There's such an attention span issue in that, which is true. So we made them 5. Now, 5 minutes is a long time. A lot of people can't watch for 5 minutes.

I find when I watch PragerU videos, sometimes I'm taking out my phone just to check it. And why do I need to check my phone? And that's you. And it's me. And when I started reading, I would read a page and then look at my phone. I felt it like it seriously was like a drug fix.

I don't have that.

I know you don't because you didn't grow up in that generation. There's been a screen in front of me since I was 12. Right. God, for these younger people, since they were like a baby.

How would you react if you, as an Orthodox Jew, you didn't have it for 24 hours?

I think, well, you know, it's funny. So I talk to a lot of my friends and it's interesting because not all of them are as motivated as I am to get off the phones and buy into life itself. But when we talk about how we are going to raise our kids, it is unanimous. All of my friends say, oh my gosh, well, I'm not giving my kid a phone till we're 8. So it shows that we know to some extent that this is a huge knock on our lives. Yeah, this has really taken— that's a big deal. It is. And I find that— I find that to be interesting that although some people aren't as motivated to fix it for themselves, they realize it's enough of an issue to want to raise their kids differently.

So it's completely up to you. Do you want to respond to the letter you sent me from a listener who was very annoyed with us? Oh, on surrogacy? Sure. Oh, sure. Well, we don't have the time to read it, but we— maybe we should do it, uh, um, well, to read the letter alone would take up the rest of the time.

Oh, I know which one you're talking about.

Yeah, well, you forwarded it to me.

When I publicize my email, julie@julie-hartman.com, which, by the way, Sean means I don't have to do it at the end because I just did it now. When I publicize my email and say that I forward emails to you, you can see I really do.

By the way, the thing that Sean said into my earphones, I said I would say, oh yeah, he said I heard it on the speaker. By the way, Alan Estrin says that Alan Estrin contends that he Dennis Prager, who is the producer of the show, the creator, the man who came up with the idea of PragerU. He's an extraordinary human being. So his argument, and he really believes this, I'm not exceptional, he says, in any way. So I decided to really work hard and be self-disciplined, and that has worked out for me. He happens to be exceptional, but the point is This, this is worth the price of admission to this, Dennis and Julie. I said this on my fireside chat and on a number of New Years. I think it was New Year's because, you know, it for whatever reason raised this issue, but it doesn't matter about New Year's. Vast numbers of people, including my generation when we were your age, It was, I, you know, I really have to find myself. You know, who am I? And all of my life I have said it's a stupid pursuit. The thing you should pursue is what you want to be, not who you are. Whom do you want to be? That's all that matters. And then do it. Do you want to be deep? Do you want to be good? Do you want to be happy? That's the question. Those are the questions. And you can be— you want to be courageous, you'll be anything you want to be.

That's how I orient my mind.

Yes, no, I'm vindicating it. Absolutely. I desperately want to reach my potential. It's a stupid question, who am I? Who are you? You're nothing. What do you mean, you're— what are you? What does it mean? Now, you're born with certain traits, obviously. I got a good voice, so it worked out well for radio. But there are guys who have great careers in radio who have crappy voices. The reason I've succeeded in speaking is not because I have a good voice. It certainly helped, and I agree, I didn't work to have that. That was a gift. But so what? But you are what you want to be. Now, you can't be a beauty queen if you are really challenged physically. You can't be a concert pianist if you didn't start playing piano at 5. I agree. I understand that. That's fine. But I'm not talking about— You can be. That's right. But with regard to traits, I'm not talking about abilities. Talking traits, you are what you want to be.

Also, and I know these are a lot of points to pile on, but in addition to my wanting to be the best person I can be and reach my potential, in addition to my wanting to understand all of life and explore it— damn it, what was I gonna say?

Just lost it. Oh, that's painful. So painful. I can—

I usually I could fill in Oh gosh, it shows I'm so relaxed.

Yeah, that does show. What were you just saying?

You're saying be who you want to be, right?

As opposed to— and you know what?

No, that's such a good point. I thought— oh yes, I found it! Thank God, thank God. Yes, you know why? I remembered a word: freedom. Freedom. I was thinking freedom as you were speaking. We in the United States of America are so privileged that we have the freedom to explore. I mean, we're privileged in the sense that, as I was saying earlier, we have unprecedented access to great works, but also we are allowed to partake in them. Think about all of the countries around the world and throughout history where you couldn't have a Bible. You know this better than anyone when you were in your 20s. Israel sent you into the Soviet Union to smuggle in Torahs and other, you know, Jewish texts because people so desperately wanted to learn about God. Think about how many people around the world, whether it's in communist China or in Putin's Russia or in, you know, Ibrahim Raisi's Iran or all of the countries where there's, you know, state news media, one or no religion. Think about how many people would yearn to know, just know and learn about God, even if they don't believe. How many people would love to just, what does the Bible say? I'd really love to know that. Or what do, you know, what are they saying over there in America? Or what did, you know, what did the great authors write? Or what, can you imagine how many people have that yearning to learn? And we in the United States have that freedom to learn and we throw that out. And even worse, there's a contingent among us who disparage it. We have the opportunity on Christmas Eve to walk into a church, even if we're not Christian, and see what it's all about, to see what people are celebrating. What a gift that is. How cool is that? Another thing to learn about and explore in life. And people go, oh, I'm not going to do that because Christianity is a white, heterosexual, heteronormative religion that was founded by patriarchs and has only been used to oppress people. Screw you, you ingrate. We are so lucky. That was good, Sean. Aren't you glad I remembered it?

Sean, just for that, Julie's going to give you some of her pistachios. No, I'm not. We don't have enough. She's not going to give you any of her pistachios.

Only if you eat it the way I eat it.

So, yeah, just the word. It was a depressing letter. I didn't even read it. I'm very, I'm very touched that the woman wrote it. I think it was a woman. And I, I think it's worth reviewing on one of Dennis and Julie's about reading excerpts from that letter. So just for those playing catch up, you did, you, you had an interview on your own podcast, Timeless, with an anti-surrogacy advocate. You— what else did you do?

Well, we did a Dennis and Julie on it.

Oh yeah, we did a Dennis and Julie on it. Exactly. So, and I said, I said, and she quoted me, I didn't read every single word, but I will. And but she quoted me, Dennis said he doesn't understand why anybody would be opposed, which is true. I did say that.

Yes, you did.

You wouldn't be here. You wouldn't. Julie Hartman would not be alive were it not for surrogacy. Your mom couldn't conceive, so the, the egg was implanted in the fertilized— I'm sorry, the fertilized egg was implanted into another woman who willingly, knowingly, consensually— so here, so here, I'll tell you why I want to discuss this. And I would, uh, I think I'm going to discuss it with, on my own show, with another person with— I'll find somebody who opposes it. This woman opposed it. I think she mentioned she's Catholic, and the Pope just came out against it, as you probably know.

The woman I had?

Yeah. No, no, no, no. The letter writer.

Oh, I see.

I'm sorry. No, not the woman you had. The letter writer. And look, I never debate theology. You will— it's not debatable. So I don't, I never, I've never in my life debated it. I just honor your theology. So if she would have said, look, that's my theology, that only, only the woman whose egg it is can carry the baby, okay, then I have no argument. But she said, I'm not speaking just as person whose religion teaches that. Then that's different. I, I don't understand why bringing a life into the world that will be loved and nurtured as you have been and produce a Julie Hartman, that something went awry. And I'm deeply religious and deeply— I've devoted my life in, in some real way to God. And I brought more people, as I often say, and I brag about this, I brought more Christians back to church, lapped people who no longer believe, than I think any living Christian. And I brought more Jews to Judaism than I think any living Jew. That's quite a remarkable record. Even if I'm wrong by 2, there are 2 ahead of me. That's still a big deal. But I— this is when religion is becomes irrational. And I don't understand it. Why? What the notion was stated that the woman is selling her, her, her body. Yes, she is. But she's not a prostitute. I don't understand. What does it mean? We— every, every athlete sells their body. I mean, that's every construction worker. Yeah, I don't understand why Hamburger maker. I read it and I still don't understand it. What? What is wrong? What was in the— in the Bible? Abraham and Sarah want a child, right? Sarah says, I can't conceive. Take— take a concubine. So I'm curious, that's okay. I sleep with, I have intercourse with another woman to produce a baby for you is better than we implant your egg in another, your fertilized egg in another woman. That's better. God didn't object.

I mean, I agree with you. Why don't we read a few excerpts? I mean, it's a long email and I truthfully didn't read all of it, but I'll read the first 2 paragraphs. And I just want to say before we get into this, and this is a really important point, I am not offended in the slightest by this. Of course not. Of course.

And I'm not insulting this woman. I'm only reacting to the idea. God bless her for writing. Go ahead.

I just wanted to say that offensive point because, you know, the big— one of the biggest reasons I wanted to do that show was to show people I don't feel like this woman, by opposing surrogacy, is threatening my existence. Right. Let's be chill. We can have passionate disagreement. You can oppose the mechanism of my existence and we can still be chill. Okay? People have got to learn this. It's crazy. So I am not offended in the slightest. I really appreciate her writing. Here's what she said. Julie Dennis, you don't know what you're talking about. Nice opening. Neither of you have been pregnant. You don't understand that pregnancy and motherhood are sacred. The reason surrogacy is wrong is that it breaks up a mother, a sacred thing, into multiple parts. Here's your oven. Here's your nursemaid. Here's your teacher. Here's your cook. That's not how motherhood— motherhood, excuse me, works. Motherhood is not a job. It is love. Paying for love is wrong. Love is not love that is bought and sold. Being pregnant and delivering a child—

you didn't buy love. You bought a person to carry a baby. Also, so because you couldn't do it. Also, that— yes, that's love. Ironically, that was love for your parents.

I love— you know, like, if my surrogate mother loves me and I love my surrogate mother and I love my parents, even if it was bought, like, why is that bad? You say love is not bought. What if something that is bought turns out to be love anyway? Does that make it—

okay, so not worthy of being loved? We need to do I'll tell you what we should do, because there are so many great issues here. We should devote a good chunk of a Dennis and Julie to this letter. And I'll tell you why. Everything in the first sentences I don't agree with.

Wait, can I just finish the paragraph? Yeah, because I— yes, I agree. We should dedicate more time being— so love is not love that is bought and sold.

Yeah, but the issue isn't love. Nobody said you bought love. When I buy anyone's service, I'm not buying love, I'm buying a service. But what— but you— it produced love. You didn't buy love, it produced love. Your parents love you. I love you. A lot of people love you. It's a big deal. You wouldn't be here were it not for that woman. And this woman thinks that woman should never have done this.

I know. And, and, and here's another thing I'll say. This is the evil you're fighting with respect to people who are anti-surrogacy. Like, with all of the evil going on in the world, you're targeting surrogates who knowingly, willingly, contractually enter into an agreement that they— to carry a child that would never otherwise be born for a family that can't have one. To give a life that never otherwise would have happened. That's what you're fighting against amidst all of the problems that we have in the world. And listen, there are stories, especially in other countries where it's not heavily regulated, where people are forced into this, where people don't have informed consent, where there are a lot of problems with, you know, the— like, if let's say 3 embryos take and, you know, the parents want to abort one because they don't want triplets, or want to abort two because They don't want triplets. What happens then? There are a lot of questions with surrogacy that I understand why people are devoting their time and energy to. I more than anyone want it to be above board, good for both sides, healthy, safe. But in the case of with, with me, again, every— all parties walked out happy. Why are you fighting this?

Well, the world has been enriched by it.

I would hope so.

But well, all right, look, there's so much evil. Like, really? Okay. So by the way, even that, I have such a mouth to say to you about people who don't fight real evils. This is not real evil. We're gonna— we're gonna— we gotta break.

Wait, I can't finish the paragraph.

Okay, sorry.

No, I just want people to hear it. Okay. Uh, being pregnant and delivering a child is a terrifying, life-risking act that is only sanctionable because of the creation of a human soul, a child, the most precious thing in the world, through love. Well, it's the most precious thing, then that's what happens.

You were created through love. It was your father's sperm and your mother's egg.

There is no kind of work—

the surrogate didn't create you.

There is no kind of work remotely comparable. It is the foundation of humanity. Carrying a child through pregnancy, labor, and delivery is a sanctifying act.

Dying to save so that your child can live. What would be done about the biblical characters like Keturah, for example? Well, no, Keturah was a later— excuse me, a later wife. But I don't remember their names offhand, but Hagar. No. Yes. Hagar. Yes, that's right. Hagar. That's correct.

Two more sentences. It is the first step of parenthood that requires so many more sacrifices. Surrogacy breaks that love.

Surrogacy breaks what love?

The love of parenthood, I suppose. And carrying, delivering a child. On that note, You can write in to me about anything, clearly, at julie@julie-hartman.com, and I sincerely love hearing from you, whatever email you write, and I forward them to Dennis, as you very well know. And you can also follow me on Instagram and Twitter @julierhartman, and you can follow Dennis on Instagram @thedennisprager and on Twitter @dennis— I'm sorry. Can we keep this in? It's so funny.

Can we keep it in? No, we're not leaving it in. Okay, then next time I'm giving you—

this has been a chill episode, by the way. Can you pass me one?

No. The— okay, go ahead. I'm trying to promote you. You are? Yes. DennisPrager.com. Get, get, get the Rational Bible, my Bible coming.

Yes. Sean said it should be forward slash. Yes, you can follow Dennis on Twitter at Dennis Prager. Shalom. Buy into life.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.