Can Thoughts Be Sinful?

This is the story of the one. As a procurement manager for a hospital system, she keeps every facility in her network stocked and ready. That's why she counts on Grainger to be her single source for thousands of products, from disinfectants to lighting, air filters, and more. And with fast, dependable delivery, Grainger helps her keep every facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

Hello everybody, Dennis and Julie. Dennis Prager, Julie Hartland. Julie and I—

Shalom!

Shalom to you. We have been traveling. Julie is now in New York. I was in Boston and Providence this week at MIT and Brown, which we might want to talk about for a moment a little later. But I actually have something rare, Jules. I have a topic I really want to talk about rather than spontaneously enter some realm that we normally do. This subject, in all seriousness, for you and those watching/listening, this has— this subject has been on my mind all of my adult life, and I, I have never fully answered the question that I'm going to raise. That is how complex it is.

It—

most people don't think it's complex because they have— I'm not saying this critically— they have a fixed view on the subject and it sort of ends the issue. But it doesn't end the issue. And in fact, it's so important to me that I work it through that I'm actually taking a chance because I'm giving one of my High Holy Day sermons on this subject. And the subject is, can a thought be a sin? And for most Christians, the answer is sort of, are you kidding? Of course thoughts can be sinful. And of course, Christians cite Jesus most specifically, if a man lusts after a woman, obviously one to whom he's not married, and then it is equivalent to his having committed adultery with his heart. And by the way, I always tell Christians it's pretty important that Jesus added with his heart. Jesus did not say it's equivalent to adultery. And it's very important that Christians be honest to the text. It, you know, they, they owe Jesus that much respect to at least quote him accurately. Adultery with your heart is not the same as adultery with your body. But by the way, just before we move on, do you find that comment at all controversial, Julie?

I do, because I actually think that adultery with your heart is worse than adultery with your body. I was talking about this with a friend the other night, and, and we were contemplating if we would at all take it to heart if we were with someone who would have an affair. And we both agreed that if it were a one-night stand, a guy that we were with, it was just he was bored, or it was just a fit of passion, that would be something that we would be more willing to move on from than if it were a prolonged emotional affair. So I actually do disagree with that contention.

Okay, that's not what Jesus had in mind though. Jesus was not speaking about a prolonged emotional affair. He was speaking about just lust. So, uh, and, and every— most everybody who reads the verse understands it that way. So when I ask you—

let me— forgive me for interrupting— how do we know that he wasn't talking about?

Because the issue was lust, not an affair. He's not talking about— if he'd have said loving someone, emotionally bonding with another woman, and is committing adultery with your heart, that would have been not terribly controversial. Notion, presuming that there was also a sexual component, not even sexual activity. And I agree with you, by the way. I, just for the record, what you described, I agree with you. I think it is way more dangerous to a marriage, an emotional affair without sex, than a sex affair without emotion. So yes, but that's— he was not referring to any affair. He was referring just to the act of lusting or the sensation of lusting. I mean, that's what it says. It doesn't— it's not talking about an ongoing relationship. And that is how it's understood by every Christian that I've talked to, which is 40 years worth of talking to Christians, that a man— a man— so the traditional Christian take which I've heard very many times, so I'm pretty familiar with it, is yes, you know, a man glances at a woman, finds her attractive, and has some immediate chemical response. That's normal. But if he dwells on it, that's lust. And that's what Jesus is condemning. And he's saying that is adultery with your heart, 'cause it's with a woman that you haven't, that you're not married to. So I want to take it step by step because I'm not going to even only talk about lust at all. I'm going to talk about the issue of can thoughts be sins? Because that's an incredibly important subject. So, so far, are we on board then?

We are on board. I think it is a difference between men and women, though, because Women can find a guy to be attractive, but there's not that same amount of, I think for most women, continued lust and temptation physically as there is with a guy. I think when a guy sees a woman, he's much more, he's much more of a proclivity.

Well, he's aroused. He could be aroused. It's as simple as that. I mean, let's call a spade a spade. The men are visually aroused. Women are mentally aroused.

Yes. Absolutely.

Okay, so that's not even a question. Okay, exactly. Okay, so that's what Jesus is referring to, and I'm not even going to dwell on that. I just— that's where most Christians will get the notion that a, a thought can be a sin. Okay, so now I'll, I'll tell you, I, I wonder if I have— I told you that I— you'll find this fascinating if I didn't tell you, and if I did tell you, I'll be very brief in repeating it— about how when I was a kid, I had what I called Christian envy. Did I ever tell you about that?

No, you didn't.

Oh, you will. You'll love this, Julie. This is going to totally interest you and even amuse you. So I was interested in, quote unquote, the other from the earliest stage of my life. I always wanted to know the non-American, the non-Jew, the non-white. I wanted to know everything I wasn't. And so one of the things that I thought about was Christians because obviously I lived in a Christian world. You know, most of the houses on my block had Christmas decorations. And you know, you turn on the radio, especially when I was a kid, on Sundays and you would hear, you know, They weren't televangelists, they were radio evangelists. And I was fascinated by it. So I remember at a very early age, I learned or I heard the following. For a Christian to be saved, he has to believe in Jesus. For anyone to be saved, you just have to believe in Jesus. And I, or just, that was the term I put in, just. And so, Julie, I remember thinking, because I grew up in an Orthodox world, Orthodox home, schooled, camp, and I realized I had to do so much. I couldn't eat half the foods that were out there. I had to observe the Sabbath punctiliously. And I thought, what a deal. Christians have none of these rules, and all they have to do is believe in Jesus. What a great deal. Deal. So I thought that too, I would say, through my 20s. I mean, more sophisticatedly, but that was basically how I looked at it. Then the great gift in my life, the 10-year time that I moderated Religion on the Line, this show, extremely popular show in Los Angeles on ABC Radio. Where each week for 2 hours without commercials. So it's like 3 hours. It was the one non-commercial 2 hours of the week on that, on the station. And I would— I was the moderator of a priest, minister, rabbi, different ones each week. I was like 3 PhDs in Christianity. So here goes, Julie. This will— this will— I know you and this will fascinate you. A medical test can reveal your body's biological age. Which can show if you're aging prematurely. Better nutrition has been shown to reverse one's bio-age. My hope in this regard of living a longer and healthier life is why I take Field of Greens. Yes, I take it. I would never endorse it if I didn't. Field of Greens is an organic superfood fruit and vegetable drink unlike any other. Field of Greens was approved through a university study that doctors believe may lower your body's biological age. That means better health. Each ingredient in Field of Greens was doctor-selected to support vital bodily functions like heart, liver, kidneys, metabolism, and immune system. And only Field of Greens promises at your next checkup, your doctor will notice your improved health or your money back. That's quite remarkable. Join me in better health with 15% off and free shipping. Visit fieldofgreens.com and use the promo code Dennis. That's code Dennis at fieldofgreens.com. Fieldofgreens.com. So at about the 5-year mark, I, I I stopped having, permanently, Christian envy. And what did it was the following realization: Christians traded in guilt over ritual, over law, for guilt over thought. And I thought, oh man, I do not want guilt over thought. I'll take guilt over law any day over guilt over thought. And it changed me, it changed my attitude to a very sympathetic one, I might add. It's not critical at all, just it changed my attitude toward Christianity and Christians profoundly. Not pro or con, I was always pro. But just, so isn't that fascinating? And people don't think about that. Even Christians don't think about what I just said. But that was the trade-off. Christians don't have to keep kosher. Christians don't have to observe the Sabbath in any way that religious Jews do and all the other things. They don't have to fast on Yom Kippur like I'm about to do. But guilt over thought? Ooh. If I had guilt over thought, I would be a troubled soul.

Boy, do I have a lot to say to this. First, as far as being fascinated by the other, that is something that I definitely share.

I know. I know. By the way, just let me say to everybody, if I have it, she shares it. If she has it, I share it.

With one exception.

Yeah.

You know the exception?

What?

Audio equipment. When you start talking about that, I lose you.

Okay, yes, but wait a minute. Okay, hello, for the record, when Julie first heard my audio system, she did— Oh right, did you or did you not tear up?

I did. It was actually incredible.

Okay, thank you. Really? Okay, go ahead.

It was, it was— I had never experienced equipment like that Very true.

Okay.

But you know, I was the other night having dinner with a Christian friend and she and I were talking about how she had this flirtation with Judaism. And she said the reason for her flirtation with it, which is really a whole subject onto its own that we could discuss, is that she thought that, and I so hope I'm not offending any Christians who are listening, but she thought that whenever she talked about Jesus or she she said the word Jesus, it came off as hyper-religious and had this kind of connotation of just being dripped in religiosity. And she really kind of envied that the principal noun, if you will, in Judaism is God and not Jesus. She thinks it may actually paradoxically, even though Jesus is the one who brought the covenant into the human heart and universalized the covenant, she actually thinks that it's more accessible and more palatable to a majority of people to refer to God as God and not Jesus. And I honestly, again, I so hope I'm not offending any Christians in the audience. I actually really relate to that. And so I think it's customary and sort of normal to appreciate the things that, or have a kind of flirtation with the heritage that isn't your own. As far as punishing yourself for your thoughts, you know, you have greatly, among other things, influenced my opinion on this, where I used to get very down on myself about thoughts that I would have. And now I really more so focus on my actions because that's what you live with at the end of the day. But what's interesting is I don't know if you should punish yourself or feel guilty for your thoughts. But I do think that the Christian impulse to regulate your thoughts is a good one. And I actually think you, Dennis, really subscribe to this. You talk a lot about, for instance, that you don't expect things of people. You internalize that Buddhist mantra. You, you got rid of the desires part but kept the expectations component that you should try not to expect too much of others. That's a change in your thought process. The very thesis of your happiness book is that you can't be happy without being grateful. Being grateful in some ways is an action, but it's a worldview, it's a thought process. So where I would draw the distinction is you should punish yourself or expect consequences for your actions and not your thoughts, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't still try to regulate them and make them as principled as possible. What do you think?

This is exactly why I wanted to raise this with you, because you immediately gave me more material for my important talk. So there are two separate issues: are thoughts important, and are bad thoughts sin? They're not the same subject. I raised the issue of can thoughts be sinful? And I can't see how anybody can compare the sinfulness of a thought to the sinfulness of an action. And by the way, Jesus didn't do it, and Jesus is not the subject of the hour, but just for the record, that's why he spoke specifically of adultery with the heart. And not with the body. If he would have been very clear, if he would have said whoever lusts after a woman has committed adultery, period, then he would have been equating a thought with an action. So that's really, really important. Even, even he didn't in Matthew. So I just want to make that clear. But putting, putting all of that aside, because the question is not just germane to Christians, Can a sin— can a thought be a sin? I don't deny the importance of thoughts, but here is— here is— I'm going to go to my punchline, Julie, uh, that, uh, will, uh— when I came up with this myself just recently in preparing— it's the beauty of writing and speaking, it forces you to think things through, as you know well—

no It's your mirror's theory too.

It's the mirror's theory, exactly. The mirror of your mind is writing, or, and for that matter, speaking. But I'm writing— I'm not— I don't write my speeches, but I'm writing a lot of notes. Okay, so here's my punchline: if bad thoughts are sinful, then good thoughts are meritorious. And that's Nonsense. The number of people who have done evil with good thoughts is larger than the number of people who have done evil with bad thoughts.

Okay, here's where I totally agree. I agree with you. But then here's where we can actually bring in, I think, the most recent episode of Dennis and Julie. What is prayer? Isn't prayer just having good thoughts?

No. Well, I don't know. It involves good thoughts, but you know, what am I doing when I'm praying? I mean, I don't know. What are you— wait, no, no, it's a good question. Different people are doing different— many people when they pray are, are asking God for, for help. I don't know why that's a good thought, right?

But I think a lot of people too are, are expressing gratitude, or they're They're wishing other people well. Okay, you're right.

Okay, I'm not anti-good thoughts. I am arguing that they're largely worthless. And the number— remember, I'm preoccupied with evil on a grand scale. The greatest genocidal project in history has been communism, at least in any one century. A vast number of people supported communism with good thoughts. This will bring down tyranny. This will bring down the czar. This will bring down the shah. This will bring down the corrupt government of Lon Nol in Cambodia. This will bring down the corrupt Chiang Kai-shek government in China. This will bring down the corrupt Batista in Cuba. This will bring about equality, economic equality. They're filled with good thoughts and did staggering evil. I don't even believe that all Nazis had bad thoughts. They thought that they were doing good for Germany in its epic battle with the Jew. So good thoughts. Now I'll give you a bigger punchline. How much good has been done by capitalism? More good than any other doctrine in history in lifting people from poverty. Do we agree on that? Okay, it's rooted— it's rooted in selfishness. I want to make a profit. That's what capitalism is about. I want to make money. I want to make a profit.

It's a great point. And look, there's no doubt that bad people have done bad things with good thoughts and that good people have done— oh, are we still on?

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, sorry. I saw you and then I didn't see you. Problem of not being in person. No. Again, there's no doubt that, that good thoughts and bad thoughts are not determinative of the actions. But what you said, and I thought it was a really good point, was if you can be punished for bad thoughts or if bad thoughts are bad, then there must be something meritocratic or something morally good about good thoughts. And my counter to that was prayer, because we are constantly told how much prayer is a central part of one's faith in God. This is true in the Christian religion and in the Jewish religion. And I go back to this question where there must be something that God thinks is especially moral about good thoughts, because that's what prayer is. I mean, the only action that you're really taking when you're doing a prayer is if you're getting on your knees and taking some time out of your day to focus your attention with God, but you're not doing anything besides that. It's all in your mind. You're wishing people well, hopefully you're asking for things, you're trying to purify yourself.

And, oh, well, I mean, I don't— look, it's a painful subject, especially given my fighting on behalf of Christianity's well-being. But plenty of pastors and priests blessed the Nazi troops when they went into battle.

100%.

So that was prayer. That was prayer.

Right. But I don't think those—

you know, the Muslims who pray You know, as they rape women, they go, allahu akbar. That's a prayer.

Look, of course. I mean, I think you're bringing up the exceptions.

No, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if that's true. I don't know. I don't know that prayer makes people better human beings. I don't know.

I mean, I think of course it does. I mean, well, I mean, not all of them, but I think—

Yeah. All right. You're right. So I don't know what percentage. Let's put it that way. I don't know. When I say I don't know, I'm not being— it's not a euphemism for it doesn't. The best people I know tend to pray, so I fully acknowledge that. But vast numbers of people who pray, it doesn't have a moral impact. I don't know that they'll be more honest in business after a prayer. They might be, and I pray, I hope they are. It's ironic, it's the other subject of my big sermon is how do you account for bad religious people? But we're not going to talk about that now because I don't want to get off topic. But okay, so you're making the exception with regard to prayer. That's fine. Prayer, for the vast majority of people who pray, prayer is a tiny time aspect of their day. Okay. I mean, unless you're in a convent. Or in a monastery. So it doesn't really deal with the question of the thought question. I want to return. Since a lot of evil is done with good thoughts and so much good has been done with selfish thoughts, again, the example I give is capitalism, which is And by the way, that is— it is because people believe that motivations are what matter in assessing something's moral worth that people are anti-capitalist. The anti-capitalist left doesn't ask, does capitalism do good? It asks, oh, isn't it motivated by selfishness? So there—

Yes, but I think you're missing a big part of capitalism. It's not just that people are motivated by their own profits. It's meritocratic. It's rewarding other people based on their merits and not on their skin color or their religion or on their socioeconomic background. And so in that way, I actually think capitalism is very, I mean, it's certainly founded in equality, but I think it actually has great intentions. And motivations for allowing anybody to come in and prove themselves. Whereas if you look at communism, yeah, it seems like it has good intentions by, you know, giving everyone what they, what they need. But actually, it can be spun the other way where you're not rewarding people appropriately for their outsized work and contributions. And so I'm not, I don't, I don't think that capitalism is as, I take your point, I really do.

If you're still waiting to buy gold, sitting on the sidelines might cost you precious gains. This is Dennis Prager for AmFed Coin and Bullion. That's my choice for precious metals. The current economic climate could make buying gold a very desirable safe haven commodity. The government's overprinting of money, the fluctuation of interest rates, and high inflation can all impact the value of gold. And it's why you should seriously consider buying now. I've been working with AmFed Coin and Bullion's owner, Nick Grovich, for years. I'm glad that I jumped into the precious metals market when I did, but it's never too late. Nick's been in the industry for over 42 years, and he's proud of providing transparency and fair pricing to build long-term relationships. Nick and his team have my back, and they will have yours. They recommend what's in my best interest, not theirs. And I never worry about hidden commissions or huge markups. If you're interested in buying or selling, call AmFed Coin and Bullion for a free coin performance review. 800-221-7694. AmericanFederal.com. AmericanFederal.com.

But I don't think that's so true about capitalism.

So what you're saying— so I don't want to put words in your mouth. Are you saying It's not only based on selfishness. It also has very merit-based, non-race-based, not blood-based. Yes, I agree completely. But the motive of the individual working in capitalism is to make a profit. And that is a dirty word among a lot of people, including the Pope. He loathes capitalism. The whole Catholic left, and for that matter Protestant left and Jewish left, is rooted, and these people theoretically are Bible-based, theoretically, and they really loathe the selfishness that they perceive, which exists. It's like my old thing about the guy who builds a hospital, a rich guy, He builds a hospital which saves, let's say, a cancer clinic that saves any number of lives, but the primary reason he did it was he wanted his name on the building. So did he do good even though his primary motive was selfish? Do we care? In other words, do we do— right, and we don't care. He's done more good with his selfish desire to be famous than the vast majority of people who don't desire— well, a lot of people desire to be famous, but doesn't matter.

But here's the thing, and I know that you'll probably agree with this. I think it's impossible to do good without good thoughts.

You know, but I gave you— wait, I gave an example, though, of the guy who wants his name on a building. That's not a good thought.

Right. But I think, I think in most cases, I mean, 'cause giving money—

By the way, I wanna write that down. It's a good challenge and I wanna incorporate it. You're helping me immensely.

Yeah, giving money—

So you can't wait, so wait, you can't do good, you're saying, without good thoughts?

Yes.

Okay. I have to work that through. You can't do good without good thoughts.

I mean, are you telling me if you hate your parents and you resent them and you think they're awful, that you're going to be kind to them or you're going to just be able in your actions to.

I am saying that that's, that's, it's ironic.

I think that's very difficult.

Okay, wait, wait. Okay, first of all, being good is difficult. So that doesn't, that doesn't answer the issue. That is why, you know, you've heard this from me and you've read it. I so emphasize there was no law to love your parents. There's only a law to honor your parents. Can people who dislike their parents honor them? Yes. And I bet millions steeped in the Ten Commandments tradition have done exactly that. I don't really like my mother, I don't really like my father or both, but you know what? I'm supposed to honor them, so I contact them, I stay in touch, I let them see their grandchildren. As opposed to the vast number of post-Ten Commandments children today who, they don't like their parents, they don't even let them see their grandchildren. Or even on flimsier grounds, my parents voted wrong and I won't even let them see my children, their grandchildren.

I'll give you two, no, it's a good rejoinder. I'll give you two other examples. Are you gonna be generous to the homeless if you don't in your heart really feel sorry for them or feel an obligation to help them? I doubt that. I doubt that anybody who's walking around feeling supercilious or feeling, you know, unempathetic is going to hand out some cash or go buy them food.

Okay, all right, well, all right. So now I'm gonna really make your day tough because I'm gonna quote your, arguably— not arguably— one of the favorite humans in the, in the Julie Hartman brain. My wife. Okay. My wife is adamant about never giving homeless people cash.

Notified I qualify. Notify. Sorry, I just shook my computer. Notify that I qualified it. I said, or give iced tea. I actually meant to go back on it because you're right, you should not give money to the homeless. But I do think that you should, you should be helpful. I mean, there was a guy outside of CVS the other day in a wheelchair. And I said to him, he got addicted to opioids after a car accident. And he was just standing— not standing, he was sitting in his wheelchair with a sign. And I said, sir, could I get you anything? And he said, yes, iced tea. That's why I made the iced tea example. Now, I'm not trying to, you know, heap praise on myself, but I know I'm an empathetic person. I think very much of others. I want to help other people. If I were a rotten person, I wouldn't ask that guy for iced tea. I'd just walk right past him.

So do you think that the liberal/left world has done good for homeless people?

No.

Okay. They, they believe that they are filled with good thoughts about the homeless. All their policies were directed to help.

I believe they are filled with good thoughts. That doesn't mean that they are. They can believe whatever they want to believe, but that doesn't mean that they actually are filled with good thoughts.

Well, you think they're filled with bad?

I think they're filled with good talking points.

Hmm. Well, I can't stand these people, but I believe they're filled with good thoughts. I do. I think they have their ability to delude themselves. The ability of human beings to delude themselves, which raises, that's why I said this is one of the most complex issues I've ever dealt with philosophically, morally, rationally, is the notion of the whole relationship. You will find this fascinating, of course, between thought and action. How do you know if your thought is good or bad? Answer that question. It's a direct question to you. How does one know if one's thought is good or bad? It seems self-evident, but it's not. Go ahead.

I think if it makes you kinder and more decent to other people, if it results in an action that is more decent, then that's how you know that it is.

Oh, okay. So hold on. Okay. In other words, the really— the only way to know— well, there are two ways, but the only one of the only two ways to know if your thought is good is what does it lead to? What action does it lead to? Yeah. Okay. So, so then are we— are you on board with me And I'm not saying you should be. I just want to know, are you on board with me that actions are far more important than thoughts?

Yes, of course.

Okay. Do you think that the average Christian would be on board with that statement?

Um, I don't know enough of them to be able to answer, but yes, I do.

See, I wish I had time to dialogue. This would be a fun— I'm gonna have, I'm gonna do my next dialogue with, my public dialogue with a Christian, I'm gonna raise that question. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know, because remember, you know, I've done decades of dialogue with Christians. I don't know if they would say that an act is is infinitely more important. I don't know. I'm—

Well, that's troubling.

Well, look, every religion has troubling, or every religious group has troubling views. Don't start me on that. I'm not picking on Christians. The only reason, because I spend much more time defending Christians, but— and this is not even a criticism— they're the ones who have forced me to deal with this issue. I never— there wasn't a day in my life that I thought about sinful thoughts and that they're in any way analogous to sinful behavior. It was only Christians that put this idea into my mind. That's why I spoke to you about my ending of Christian Envy when I learned how much guilt Christians have over thoughts. I went to yeshiva, which is is as immersive a religious Jewish experience as one could have. Half the day in Hebrew religious subjects, half the day in English secular subjects, till I was 19 years of age and then continued thereafter. There wasn't a day when I was told by any of the many rabbis who taught me that your thoughts are sinful.

I want to go back to something that you said a few minutes ago about, is there something— is there heightened merit that should be awarded to good thoughts? And I think that there should be. And I think prayer is a good example of that. But also, you know, a few years ago, I had a little bit of a friendship rift with a friend. And I think over time I've realized that I didn't mean to hurt her, but there were some things that I did totally unintentionally that did hurt her. And over time, over the years, even though I haven't— we live on opposite sides of the country. I don't see her very often. But over time, I have thought about this. I've thought about my actions. I've gone, "Yeah, I should have probably behaved differently in those moments." I have internally expressed— I mean, I expressed remorse to her, but I've also internally done an assessment of myself. And even though it's not, you know, leading to something every single day, or it's not— there's not like a specific action that I'm taking, I think that I have purified and elevated myself as a result of that thought process. And working that through. And I'm not saying I should get a gold star for it, but I think that there is something good about that. Besides people, or I should say, in contrast to people who behave poorly and then they don't put themselves through the mental surveillance that they ought to do. Because in turn, I know in the future I'm going to be a better friend and a better person for having done that, even though right now this This process is only in my brain and with myself. What do you think? Do you think there's nothing ennobling, or not nothing ennobling, but do you think there's nothing extra worthy of merit or praise for those silent?

Yeah, okay, yeah, of course there is. But that's the reason is that you're working through how to be a better person. And you're working it through in a way that I agree with. The large number of people who are undoing Western civilization today are not thinking, how can I do bad? They're thinking, how can I undo colonialism? How can I undo capitalism? How can I undo racism? How can I undo imperialism? They are as certain of the goodness of their thoughts as you are.

I don't know about that. I don't mean to be condescending to those individuals because I do think a lot of them, as we have said referencing that book, are true believers. I think now it is so staggeringly obvious what a farce and a sham DEI is, what a farce and a sham anti-racism is, and how very harmful it actually is to minorities. I think of cash bail laws, for instance, in places like New York City where I am right now, in Illinois. It's been a disaster, not for people in dorm and buildings, but everyday overwhelmingly minority individuals. So I actually think now I would disagree with you. I think it has gotten so— yeah, they want power.

Yeah, we—

I don't think they have good doctors.

We believe that, but they don't believe that.

I don't know.

Bernie, what is— what, you don't think Bernie Sanders is animated by his sick and twisted notion of the good?

Not anymore. I really don't.

Mm-hmm. So you think— I think at one time you think Bernie Sanders wakes up in the morning and thinks, gee, how can I accumulate more power today?

Yes.

Yeah, I don't. That is what I believe. I believe that is a massive motive of the left, but that on any conscious level, that is not— that is for most.

I think we're also coming to this thing. It's not all or nothing. I think he wakes up and I think there's a part of him which has a human soul and wants to help people. But I think he's far more thinking about himself and his power.

Are you ready to lose weight but not sure where to start? So I'd like to tell you why I chose PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition and is much more. They know 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating reasons you gained weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science, science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you're ready to lose weight for, I think, the last time, call 864-644-1900, 864-644-1900 to get started, or online at myphdweightloss.com. Myphdweightloss.com. Just make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation. Call today, 864-644-1900.

And if there were a trade-off, he would choose the latter, right? I don't, I don't think, I don't think he's all or nothing.

All right, well, that, that's what people who don't like Donald Trump say. He's really animated by, by his, uh, love of power. And love of himself.

Right, but how does the evidence bear that out?

Right. So we're back to action again. So I asked you, I don't want to lose the thread. I asked you, how do we know whether or not a thought is good? And I said there were two answers. One is, what does it result in? Which is why the left is an utter failure, because everything they try is destructive. But they don't measure behavior. They measure intentions. And the other is you need— this is critical— you need a value system against which you measure your thoughts. Otherwise, you could think anything and think it is good. I mean, to make the craziest, the most horrible of examples, There were many Nazis who thought killing Jews was a good thing. They weren't all sadists.

No, we're in agreement that actions matter more.

No, I know. No, no, I want to go back. How do you know if a thought— I want to— this is the question I'm posing. We're talking about sinful thought. That was the opening question. Is a sinful thought a sin? or is a bad thought a sin? Not a sinful thought, it's redundant. Is a bad thought a sin? How do you know a thought is bad? That's what I'm asking you.

If it leads you to behave in a way that is not decent or kind to other people. So it is measured by action.

Okay. And it is measured in another way. I have to measure the thought against a value system higher than my thinking. You need both. You need both. Okay, so I give— life doesn't normally consist of, you know, hiding a Jew in the Nazi era. For most people, the tests are much smaller. So here's a good one. And I raised it on my radio show when it happened. I would say it's probably, I don't know, a year ago, 2 years ago. As always, I rent cars on the road. I was in Minnesota. I rented a car and they gave me a Suburban, which is the largest, basically the largest thing, the longest thing you can rent. I don't— it's too large for me. I want an SUV, but not—

It's your signature car.

No, no, it's not. It's my non-signature. I like what I own is considerably shorter than a Suburban. Anyway, as a— yeah, so, uh, I'm a woman, I don't know. You're right, that's— well, that's fair, although women love Suburbans because they feel very secure in it, but it doesn't matter. So, uh, I— it was a tight spot at a— in a parking, uh, structure, and I scraped the woman's car. So I asked on the air—

I remember this.

Right. So I'll ask you then. It's obviously just a hunch. What percentage of Americans would leave a note? I scratched your car. Here is my phone number.

Not many a-religious Americans or non-religious Americans. I think most religious Americans would because they would think that somebody is watching them.

I hope you're right, by the way. That's the other— I told you, that's my other subject. How often does religion make people better? So it's a very interesting question. Would most religious Jews and Christians leave a note? I don't know the answer. I pray— I don't pray. I hope that it's a large percentage. But the point I wanted to make was I had— I admit it, and it may be may reflect poorly on me, but it's for the sake of truth. I'm willing to cast myself in a negative light. There was a voice in me that said, it's not that big a deal. And it's not, it's not going to cost us— well, it turned out to be a woman, but it's not going to cost this person a lot of money. They're insured anyway. Right. You know, I don't want to— it's a big hassle. There was that voice in me, but there was another voice. Dennis, God will think less of you. You will be sinning if you don't leave a note. I'm sorry?

I said I love that. And by the way, that is such a comforting— what I wish people realized is that it's not a punishing thing. It's actually a great equalizer. Because if God is judging you and keeping a tally sheet of the things that you do privately that end up being good, that means he's doing that with other people who may be, as we see, getting away with bad things. But, you know, cosmically, someone is paying attention and someone is judging them.

Oh, it's unbelievably comforting. Unbelievably.

It's so comforting.

Right.

Equalizing.

Yeah. I think God judges you is infinitely more comforting than God loves you.

Oh my God, totally.

Oh, you agree with that? Oh, that's fascinating.

But here's— I want to bring up something about thoughts, because what you actually did with that whole car thing is more action, I think, than thoughts, because you left a note, which went against your temptations not to. I think a lot about this idea of jealousy. Now, I'm really lucky. I never have been a jealous person. Like some people just struggle with things. I struggle with other things. Envy and jealousy has not been two of those things ever since I was little. Never been a problem. But the few times when I feel envious or jealous of someone, I just think, "You know, Julie, wish them well. Don't think, 'Oh, they didn't deserve this,' or 'Oh, why do they have this?'" wish them well. Now, is that an action? No. Am I seeing any kind of results on the ground of that? No. Will that person know that I did that? No. But I think that there is something ennobling about making myself that kind of individual who thinks and processes things that way. And in a way, that is kind of an action, because you, you are building yourself up to become a better person. I just think, you know, I know you're such a staunch, and you never dismiss the importance of thoughts, but you're such a staunch action advocate, which I agree about. But I think, I really, really wish people would survey their thoughts more. Think about this whole victimhood thing. You know, a lot of the times when people are feeling like they're a victim, it's not really in action. It's that they're wallowing in this kind of despair in this bizarre, self-aggrandizing, superciliousness. And I think that degrades them as a person.

So you're dealing with a very related but not exactly the question that I posed at the outset. You're, you're dealing with the importance of thought and I'm questioning the sinfulness of thought. They're not the same question.

No, it's not. I think we've established, or I mean, maybe I'm wrong, I think we've established that a thought— well, I was going to say that thoughts aren't sins. I'll pose a very uncomfortable example, but welcome to Dennis and Julie. Do you think people who have really, really, really perverse sexual fantasies but don't act on them are having sinful thoughts?

Yeah. So this, this, this is the $64,000 example. And I deal with that in my own thinking a great deal. So the obvious example is molesting children. Okay. Is that fair?

Right.

Okay.

Yep.

So we both have a dear man in our life, a prominent psychiatrist, Dr. Stephen Marmer. I've talked to him about this. He's of the opinion that a, a man— because it's almost always a man— a man who fantasizes molesting, and it's anytime it's, it's, it's a a kid, it's by definition, it's molesting. Anyone who fantasizes any sexual activity with a kid, certainly prepubescent, okay? Postpubescent has its own moral and legal problems, but it's not the same, okay? Sex with a 15-year-old is not the same as sex with a 5-year-old, okay? There are gradations of sin. Do we agree on that? Especially because a 15-year-old could theoretically give consent. A 5-year-old cannot. And even if you did— Yeah, yeah.

I mean, they're—

Right. Okay. Anyway, so I asked him, have you— do you believe, Dr. Marmer, do you believe that a man who fantasizes this can ever be cured of it? And he said no. And, and which is very, very depressing.

Where does he say it comes from, by the way? I don't mean to get—

I don't, I don't know. I don't know if he knows where it comes from. Maybe we often say it was done to them, which is very possibly the case, except if you go back far enough, somebody was the first to do it. So I, I don't know the answer. And that's another question. In the meantime, so I can't possibly say that a sick, and that is sick, a sick fantasy is equivalent to a sick act. You wouldn't say it.

It's certainly not equivalent. We agree on that.

Okay. So is it bad at all? Okay. Is it a sin? I know. So this, this, this gets me in trouble that I even hesitate. It's sick. It's twisted. It's awful. Is it a sin if the man does nothing about it with any child? May I believe it or not, I might be able to make a The opposite argument, the man might be a moral hero for having such sick twisted thoughts and not acting on them. I don't have those thoughts. I don't get any credit for not molesting a child. I get zero credit. It's like I don't molest snowmen. I don't have— it's not something I wish to do. So I get no credit. I get no credit for not robbing a bank. It's not on my agenda. So, uh, If you do want to do something awful and never do it, maybe you're on a higher moral level than people like me who don't even want to do it. How do you respond to that?

Yeah, well, it calls to mind people who drink, people who really, really struggle with drinking. And can you imagine? I mean, you can because of Aaron, but every single day you go out and people are drinking, you walk into a restaurant, you have the aroma of alcohol, and the ads are all over the place. It's a kind of— talk about triggers. I mean, it's a constant trigger, right? And in a way, I mean, I very much admire those people for exercising the kind of self-control. So I take what you're saying. I do. But again, I think sins are actions. Actions are what should be punished and not thoughts, but I think you should be strict with yourself about your thoughts. It's not that thoughts don't matter. I think thoughts matter hugely and you should be hard on yourself about them and a lot of people aren't and then that's why their actions are so poor. Do you agree?

No, I— okay, so putting aside the perverts, or even just pathologic, the sick person who wants to molest a child, putting them aside. Most evil on earth is macro evil. People do bad things to one another, but the really, the great horrors have been macro. Communism, Nazism, fascism, they're great evils. Slavery. These are great evils. These people did not necessarily have bad thoughts. That's the reason what I— my battle for goodness in the course of my lifetime has been on behalf of values, not thoughts. Because you can have—

So what drives good actions?

Good, good. Hold on. That's a great question. What drives good actions? A desire. Okay. I would say 3 things. A desire to do good, which alone is useless because of the communists example. But a desire to do good, rational thought, and God. Those are the three things you need to hopefully do good. It's not easy to do good in this world, but the rational part— I believe God and reason are equally indispensable, because if you have God without reason, I don't know how you'll behave. And if you have reason without God, I don't know how you'll behave. So the left's utter and total failure to do good emanates from no God and no reason. A medical test can reveal your body's biological age, which can show if you're aging prematurely. Better nutrition has been shown to reverse one's bio-age. My hope in this regard of living a longer and healthier life is why I take Field of Greens. Yes, I take it. I would never endorse it if I didn't. Field of Greens is an organic superfood fruit and vegetable drink unlike any other. Field of Greens was approved through a university study that doctors believe may lower your body's biological age. That means better health. Each ingredient in Field of Greens was doctor-selected to support vital bodily functions like heart, liver, kidneys, metabolism, and immune system. And only Field of Greens promises at your next checkup, your doctor will notice your improved health or your money back. That's quite remarkable. Join me in better health with 15% off and free shipping. Visit fieldofgreens.com and use the promo code Dennis. That's code Dennis at fieldofgreens.com. Fieldofgreens.com. They are impervious to reason. If you tell them how affirmative action has hurt black people, that it has degraded them, it means nothing to them. Nothing. Reason is of no consequence. If you tell them how awful equity, which is their great desire, that everybody earn the same, all it must end up with the suppression of freedom. Because if you have to make sure that a baseball player and a plumber make the same amount of money, that means that ends freedom. So none of that matters. None of that matters. So you need reason, you need a desire to do good, you need God, and you need reason. So it's a big troika.

But with your aforementioned examples, if it results in so much harm, is that really a true desire to do good?

At this point, literally only God can answer the question. Does Bernie Sanders really desire to do good? I am incapable of answering that question. I— so I have to believe that unless he's lying his whole life to himself, He wants to do good.

I think, I think he's been lying to himself for his whole life. I think a lot of people lie to themselves about a lot of things. That's maybe where we differ.

Oh, no, I think— wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I think anybody who says men give birth is lying to themselves. I agree. But I don't know if Bernie Sanders says men give birth. What he— what Bernie Sanders went to the Soviet Union for, for his honeymoon. That's how much he adored the Soviet Union. Why do you think he adored the Soviet Union? Since you don't believe it emanates from a desire to do good— twisted, sick, perverse, evil doing— but nevertheless, you think it comes from a desire to do bad.

I know this is not a satisfying answer. I don't think it's simple. I think that there's a part of it that—

Okay, I'll live with that.

But I think that there's novelty. I think for a lot of people it's novelty. It's something different. You know, I mean, I have a total fascination. When I was in Romania and Hungary, I mean, I was on one going to all of the communist museums. But there was a fascination with it. That, of course, was in part, in large part, because of my desire to understand good and evil. But it was also just a fascination with the way different people live. And I just, I don't think it's simple. But at the end of the day, you know, so many of these people on the far left, you know, in San Francisco, for instance. You can't convince me that they think that they're doing good. You cannot convince me of that. When you are walking down the street and people are marinating in their own fecal matter, and there are people literally rotting away on the street and needles everywhere, I call— I'm sorry to curse— I call bullshit. They don't think that they're doing good.

Okay. They have the shame.

You can't look at that and go, yeah, I'm really doing good.

A lot of them, A lot of them have equal sincere view that the reason there are people with needles on the street is capitalism, is our inability to build houses for these people, that society has screwed them. Okay, I know it isn't. That's why I said reason, God, and the desire to do good. They have a desire to do good. They don't have God and reason.

But I think they know that it's not true.

Okay.

And they nevertheless drop this anyway because it's in vogue.

Yeah, I think some of them have now understood that defund the police was an idiocy. But so that— we— okay, so the time factor is always a factor. I want to give you an example. I give you, and obviously everybody listening, I want to give them, I want to give you all an example that was such a powerful moment in my broadcast career. It happened in the first quarter of my 40 years, in the first 10 years. So I was in my 30s and the guy who called was in his 30s. And he said, Dennis, I just want you to know, I'm I got to admit, I'm a— I'm an awful son. Do you know this story?

I do. And you can understand why it would be very personally relatable to me.

So, so yes, not with regard in your case to a parent, but yes, I just want to make that clear for everyone. So in a nutshell, he said, Dennis, I'm the sole support of my mother for like 10 years. Sole emotional, sole financial support. My other siblings don't live here and they don't do anything. She's sick and I gotta tell you, it's tiring. It's financially challenging. There are times that I wish she would finally succumb to her illness and die. So what do I do? I know what an awful son I am. And I said to him, on the contrary, I think you're a great son. He actually thought I was mocking him. And he said, Dennis, please, you know, I don't need you to make fun of me. I have it bad enough and I respect you. You think I'm making fun of you? I said, you are a terrific son because I'm only assessing how you treat your mother, not the fact that on occasion or even frequent occasions you wish she would succumb to her illness and die. That it makes you an even greater son because you have a normal reaction. I can't handle this forever. And yet you are handling it. I measure your deeds, not your thoughts.

But here's the thing. I don't— I wouldn't classify that as a bad thought. I would classify that as a realistic thought. I think a large part of it is obviously— and again, I relate to this with my own sister— is you want the freedom to live your life without the burden of the relative you're caring for, of course. But also there's a component of it if you don't want them to suffer. And I don't think I wouldn't put that in a bad thought category because you're not in any way diminishing their human dignity. You're not, you know, thinking or speaking maliciously of them. And so when you talk about bad thoughts, I really characterize those as like you want another person to suffer. You wish harm upon that person. Not— I don't— I see why you brought up that example. It's a very moving one. And I think it shows that actions matter more. But I don't know if that's the best example of overcoming a bad thought. And as I stipulated earlier, I don't think it's possible to do good when you have bad malicious thoughts about a person. I mean, that caller—

All right, so thinking— Okay, go on. I'm sorry.

Go on. No, he wasn't. He wasn't thinking, bleep my mother, I hope she suffers.

Yeah, well, no, clearly not. Nobody would. But no, nor is he thinking, how can I poison her food? Okay, that's fair. I mean, let's say so you could ask me, Dennis, so what if he called and said, you know, Actually, sometimes I think about poisoning her food. So what would I react to that? It said I'm challenging me. I don't know the answer to that question. I would say this. If, if I were in that position and I had that thought, how could I poison my parents' food? I would try to banish the thought from my mind. So I am acknowledging not because it's a sin. See, that's a separate question entirely. Some things may be inadvisable, bad ideas, but not necessarily a sin. I don't know if God punishes people's sinful thoughts. I really don't. I know he punishes people's— I certainly hope he does— people's sinful actions. So I'm going to end with the thing that prompted it. So do you believe that if a man looks at a woman he's not married to with a lustful response, do you believe that he has sinned?

No, I think that is natural. And also, God, if you believe in God, gave us the free will to be affected by good and evil and to do good and evil. So in a way, it's not that you should be happy with your bad thoughts. But if you have bad thoughts and temptations, that's normal. That's part of the design. That's part of what he allowed. Otherwise, we would just be good automatons. We would just be like, constantly behaving well. There would be no battle. And the whole point is that there is a battle and you triumph over the battle. You are—

I had a dialogue with Wayne Gruden. Wayne Gruden Dennis Prager is one of the most special human beings I've ever known. He's a major, major Christian thinker. He is at a Christian seminary in Phoenix. We had a public dialogue and I asked him— I've had him on my show. His books are monumental. One of his books is by my night table. He has religiously analyzed all the great issues in the world. The guy's amazing. So I just want people to know how much respect I have for him. So I asked him, this issue arose. I said, what if a single Christian man, he's not married, lusts after a single woman? She's not married. So adultery is not possible.

Isn't that great? Isn't that exactly what you want in dating? Isn't that dating?

That's a great point. Yes. Well, in effect, he almost answered that. He said, I'd never been asked that in my life. And I said, that's because you haven't had dialogues with Jews much before.

Well, literally, what in any universe would be bad about that?

For those who think that lust lust in and of itself, unless you're married to the person or you marry the person, is sinful.

How do you marry them if you don't have—

Yeah, yeah, I'm on board with you on that. That's, that's, that's clear. That's correct. Okay, so my bottom— Okay, so you, you summarize your thought. I, I'll just say my— the bottom line for— I think for both of us is whatever one's position on thoughts, actions are infinitely more important.

Agreed. As a final question, I think I know the answer. What are the thoughts that you have most struggled with?

How to avoid questions like the one Julie asked. That's the thought that I have most struggled with. Okay, I'll be totally open. The lust issue is my big battle, but I don't battle it much.

You and every man is.

Yes, exactly. And so I admit I'm faithful to my wife. She knows I'm faithful to her, and that's it at the end. By the way, it's a very interesting question to ask wives. Would you like to be married to a man who has no sexual reaction to any other woman on earth?

Yeah.

Okay. No. Yes. No, no, no, it is. By the way, if you say yes, it's a— I totally accept that.

But I mean, of course. What would you— would you want to be married to a woman that way?

Not necessarily. It would not be here or there. 'Cause if I know my wife loves me and wants me and is faithful to me, all these women, the tens of millions of women who read these, what are they called, harlequin novels, is that what the name is? Yes, these with this hunk man on the, you know, illustrated on the COVID they're called romance novels? Is that right? I thought harlequin. Oh, it doesn't matter. Romance novels. I mean, what are they doing? They're imagining themselves in the arms of that man. I don't know if we need to intervene. We don't need to monitor our beloved's fantasy life unless they want to share it with us, which I do, by the way. And it's made for a very open— not open marriage in the sense we have other partners, but dialogically open. I mean, if I'm talking about this to the public, you can only imagine that I feel free to talk about this to my wife. But it is an interesting— so you answered. I love— I love— that's part of what I love about you is your honesty. So, uh, it's an— I have to— I'm going to ask my wife that. I think, uh, every— I don't know if it's realistic.

Well, of course it's not realistic.

Oh, okay, you admit that. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Okay, fair enough. But yeah, right, but in a perfect world— by the way, I, I might, I might agree with you. In a perfect world You know, if I could take a pill and have no sexual reaction to any woman in the world except my wife, would I take that pill? I've actually asked myself that question. A large retail store just canceled a huge order, leaving MyPillow with a lot of extra MyPillows. But you know what? That's their loss and your gain. For the first time ever, you can get a standard classic MyPillow for wholesale prices only $14.88. But it gets better. For a limited time, they're offering their entire classic collection of wholesale prices at wholesale prices. Get queen-size MyPillows for just $18.88. Upgrade to a king for only a dollar more. Get the body pillows for $29.88 and multi-use MyPillows for only $9.88. Go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Prager or Hartman, or call 800-566-6745 to take advantage of wholesale pricing for the first time ever. On top of that, receive free shipping on orders over $75. They have never been offered this low before. There are limited quantities at this price. So the limit is 10, and once they're gone, they're gone. Go to mypillow.com or call 800-566-6745. That's 800-566-6745. Or use the promo code Hartman to get the standard MyPillow for only $14.88, the lowest price ever.

I, I think and hope anybody would—

I'm sorry.

I said I think and hope anybody would.

No, no, I— yeah, it would make things easier, but would I? Okay, so here's my big question. This is the most important question people could ask in assessing anything. What's the price? Is there a price?

That's, that's a, that's a very good— that's a good question.

Maybe you know how much energy I have. So I've often thought of this. Maybe that sexual part of me is part of my energy. And if it were changed dramatically, would I be me? And Sean with passion says, and conquering that is what makes you a good man. That's right. It's a very good— it's exactly right. If I were not attracted to any other woman in the world, my being faithful to Sue would not be an achievement.

Right. Exactly.

I haven't had dessert in a year. It's only an achievement because I love dessert.

Right. Boy, this was good.

Yeah, this was— I mean, I—

so interesting.

You're the one I knew I had to talk to. So, and to do this, that is—

that means so much to me.

Well, it should, because, uh, you know, this is— these, uh, High Holy Day sermons that I give are, are, are really the, the, the most important talks that I give in the course of, of the year. The one I'm giving— the other one that I'm giving The night talk is, uh, how do you account for religious people who, who are not good?

Oh my gosh, we should do a whole episode.

We should. Yes, we should. I couldn't agree with you more. But I, I have more— I have, I have more— I have very— I have more absolute clarity on that one. This is one of the toughest issues I've I've had to deal with, and it's only been my interaction with Christians that has provoked it. And that the question of sinful thought. Anyway, I hope it helped people. I can't imagine it might have confused them more, but that could even be helpful.

No, I don't think so, actually. I think we got to some good distinctions. Actions are more sinful than thoughts. Actions matter more than thoughts, but you should try to regulate and be scrutinizing with yourself about your thoughts, because thoughts lead to actions. Well, there you go.

There you go. So, Sean, I can continue to lust after you.

Oh my God.

Yeah, that's a good one. That was a good one. Yeah, that was a good one. It showed that God creates it I don't think God created thoughts of people who want to torture people.

But he allows that.

He allows everything.

I think if I were to identify the most important thing I said this whole episode, it would be that God allows this because that's the battle. Just as you said, the fact that you have lustful thoughts and you don't act on them is what makes you a good man. What makes you a good person is that you have these battles and then you choose the higher road. Otherwise, we would just be robots.

That's right. And, and there would be no battle. And there are religious people that I meet in, in both religions that do strike me as somewhat robotic. Does that resonate with you?

You could also talk about— yeah, you have to be real.

That's right. Exactly. People have to relate to you. Yeah. Or as I—

how do they reach us?

They reach us by listening to the following statement from Julie Hartman.

Julie at julie-hartman.com. You know, I love hearing from you. Gosh, we have the best.

Wait, we love hearing from you.

We do. Yes. And it's such a great reflection too of what we do. Because we're attracting such thoughtful, thoughtful people. So please continue writing in. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Julie Hartman. You can follow Dennis at The Dennis Prager and Dennis Prager on Twitter. And let's see, are there other social media accounts we're supposed to be?

Well, DennisPrager.com, you know what's happening in my life and PragerU. Yeah, it's a lot of places. And get the preorder of the latest edition of the Rational Bible where I—

and listen to the radio because yours truly is guest hosting a lot in the upcoming weeks for Dennis Prager.

Good. I love when you do. I actually listened to you while I was right before my MIT speech in Boston.

I have to tell the audience the story. So I did a first segment, which is—

oh yes, people should This is so— gives you an idea of Julie's being a human. Go ahead.

This is— this is the thoughts that I struggle with. You'll— you'll get a front row seat to right now. And I was talking about this article about why young people vote less.

Again, I just want to remind you, when you were sitting in for me.

That's right. When I was guest hosting for Dennis and I was— Andy Kessler contended that it's that we, we, we view the government as a money tree. And I said, yeah, that's true. You know, a lot of people my age think that way. But a large portion of it is that we have a crisis of meaning. Anyway, I'm done with that 16-minute segment. And Dennis calls me during the commercial break.

No, no, I texted you.

Right. But I didn't see that.

Oh, okay. All right. Go on. Yes, I called you.

Yeah. Oh, God. And I thought, I was horrible. He's calling to give me, you know, tips or something. And he calls and he goes, it was incredible. I have to tell Alan that we have to cut it and then put it on PragerU because I guess I referenced PragerU. And I literally went, thank God. I thought you were going to call and say—

So, folks, is that not precious? She sits in for me. She gets a call during the break. She sees my name. On the phone and thinks, uh-oh.

No, I thought, I thought, I, I really thought—

I know. And she— I, I— and by the way, she's not fooling. She really did think that.

Oh, I really, really—

yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, we're all a little sick.

Hi everyone, it's been fun.

It has been. Bye, see you next week.

This is the story of the one. As a procurement manager for a hospital system, she keeps every facility in her network stocked and ready. That's why she counts on Grainger to be her single source for thousands of products. From disinfectants to lighting, air filters, and more. And with fast, dependable delivery, Grainger helps her keep every facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger. For the ones who get it done.