Can You Have Faith and Still Question God? | Weekend Torah Teaching

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On today's episode of Timeless Wisdom.

That's what has always boggled me about these arguments with God. I mean, if God is really God, who am I to argue? And yet, for some reason that I cannot understand, because I never met God like this, it doesn't answer that. They're certain of God. I mean, to Moses, the idea of atheism would be ludicrous. He would be denying his own experience, right? So it's not a question that atheism is possible. But there are questions. Alright, you're God, what is your nature? See, that's why, ladies and gentlemen, we ask wrong questions a lot of times, and that's why a lot of people are theologically confused. People say, for example, I can't believe in God after the Holocaust. That, to me, doesn't make sense. What makes sense is to say, I don't understand God, or I don't love God. That makes sense to me. The issue with God is really, I— we don't understand how a good God has a world of such horror.

That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

When someone you love is hurting, what do you do? We're often quick to say, if there's anything I can do, just let me know. But what if we stopped waiting to be asked and simply showed up? On the If There Is Anything I Can Do podcast, Pam McConnell shares real stories, biblical wisdom, and practical ways to walk alongside people through grief, loss, and life's hardest moments. Learn how to show up and make a difference. Subscribe now at klovpodcast.com, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Hear thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs. And to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to DennisPrager.com.

I can't think of anything better to do on Halloween than study the Torah. I mean, it is like the juxtaposition is to me, uh, wonderful, and, uh, I'm glad we're here together. All right, my friends, we're up to Exodus 5. All right, now you recall Moses and Aaron have met. The elders told them Moses has spoken about how God has appeared to him, told him what he must do, and that he has been sent. And he gives the miraculous signs, and then they believe in him. The Jews, the Israelites believe in him. And we go now to Exodus 5. Exodus 5:1 will take up most of the session. Now, I never say that, but the reason that I'm saying— I'm exaggerating, it won't, but it will get more than its share, at least theoretically. Look at the sentence, and this is where study is critical, and you realize on one's own, that is without the great commentators and without studying It's virtually impossible to get the real basic ideas of many of the verses. I mean, clearly, Hear, O Israel, the Lord our one, the Lord is God, you can do on your own, but you already know that Judaism affirms monotheism and so on. But this one, this verse would seem to anybody, I think, on 50th reading as saying, Basically nothing. And it's— it says a lot. So let's go to it. Afterward Moses and Aaron went and said to Pharaoh, thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, let my people go that they may celebrate a festival for me in the wilderness. Does not strike one, correct? Alan, did you see anything?

No.

Okay, good. Because if he did, I would be up the creek. But I'm glad that Who, ladies and gentlemen, uh, what does it say in verse 29, right before chapter 5? And Moses and Aaron went and assembled all the elders of, of the Israelites, right? All the elders. Now you will recall, please, in 3:18. Okay, please go to 3:18. What were the— what was the directive You'll have to refer a lot to 3:18 to understand the complexity of 5:1. Okay, that's the reason. Normally I don't have you go back. I'll just read it to you, but it's worth your seeing.

3:18.

This is God telling— this is when God is at the burning bush, telling Moshe, Moses, what he has to do when he goes to Egypt. And what will happen? Okay, so they will listen to you. Okay. And then you shall go with the elders of Israel to the king of Egypt. So before I even go on, do you understand problem number 1 in 5:1? Where are the elders?

Mm-hmm.

Right? And he just met with them at the end of chapter 4. Where are the elders? I mean, it has to be pretty direct here. There is a real powerful hint that it says, and afterwards Moses and Aaron came and said to Pharaoh. Well, according to the Midrash, the ancient rabbinic commentary on the Torah, they dropped off one by one.

They were scared.

They were scared. And Moses and Aaron ended up alone. But it's almost as if the Torah didn't want to acknowledge. It wanted to hint. It couldn't say, and the establishment finked out. It couldn't say that. It's, it's, it would almost be, you know, dishonorable. But on the other hand, it didn't want to lie. And it didn't want to say, So, the Torah very indirectly, but clear as a bell, tells you the elders were too scared to show up as they were directed to do so. After all, they're there 2 sentences before. Let me read to you— well, no, that's exactly— there's nothing to read to you. That is what happened. And there is—

What happened?

There is— there are so many parallels to this about the establishment or the elders being afraid.

Okay.

The moment I read this commentary on the Torah, I thought of parallels, and I have used one frequently about how is it that a gener— remember the famous generation gap of my generation and we said you couldn't trust anybody over 30. I mean, I thought that was nonsense, and I didn't buy a lot of this stuff, but I again had very traditional values owing to my upbringing. But my generation in general bought into this alienation from the elders. And I— it is a fascinating thing, but I wonder if it's not a symptom of a deeper problem. Do people, as they get older, get a little more afraid? And I would argue that the answer is yes. And it is not necessarily their fault. Their, like I'm not getting older. I'm more afraid now of certain things. I'm more afraid now of dying than I was at 20. Not that I fear, not that I fear dying. It's not that I fear the act of dying or what happens afterwards now as opposed to when I was 20. For one thing, I have a family now. So there's much more at stake with my life than there was at 20. Well, you know how teenagers are cavalier about mortality. That can't happen to me. Seatbelt? Give me a break! Right? As you get older, 2 things happen. One, There is more, especially at middle age, more weight upon you, and I don't mean pounds alone, but, uh, more the weight of responsibility. You have a family, you have friends, you have a world that would— that would— is depending upon you with your work and with your family in particular. But there is a bigger reason too. You know how precious life is as you get older. Because mortality stares you much more in the face. And so, I don't excuse the elders of Israel and the elders of America who caved in to my generation of students. The elders of universities caved in when my generation radicals took over offices at universities. They did not fight them. They said, what can we do for you, oh demonstrators?

Mm-hmm.

And it was, I think, a terrible error. And it was just— it's being done to this moment. But he— that is— don't never think it's pointless to study the Torah if you believe that the lessons of it are not utterly universal, that they do not apply to us and our lives. The establishment, by definition, is more scared. Whenever anything is done, somebody has to take the initiative and generally do it alone. That's the way history works. Anything that is founded— was Abraham part of the establishment? No! Leave your father, leave that society, leave that world, make something new. That world won't make it. Every religion is founded by breakaway from the establishment. Christianity was founded breaking away from the Jewish establishment of its day. That's right. Islam was created breaking away from the Arabian establishment of its day. Muhammad was kicked out of Mecca, chased out by the authorities, and then came back. People don't change. Now, by the way, the changes also work for the worse, you see. But elders generally are more conservative, wish more to conserve what has been created. Are understandably more afraid of change. Look, we have— this is Pharaoh. I'm gonna go to Pharaoh and I am gonna tell him, let, let them go. And by the way, do you or do you not think they were vindicated when we'll see later in this chapter things got worse for the Jews after Moses and Aaron went? So what do you think the establishment felt then?

Aha!

These young whippersnappers, Moses and Aaron, troublemakers. Exactly what they're not. They weren't called young whippersnappers, but they're, they're called troublemakers. And don't think elders means, by the way, people in their 80s. It's 40-plus, okay, according to the Midrash. We're not talking— talking about people my age. Now, of course, Moses and Aaron are about that age too. I don't know the exact age. It would be interesting if somebody could figure it out. So elders doesn't merely mean old people, it means the authorities. Of the time, but generally also older. But isn't that interesting how if you read it, you don't see what's missing, and then you realize what's missing is they went alone. They weren't joined by the elders. Now, now let me show you what else in that verse is very strange. Let's go back to 3:18. God— when God gives you a directive, let me just tell any of you, should you meet God, I strongly suggest that you take careful note of what you were told to do. Okay? In 3:18, you will— you and the elders of Israel will go to the king of Egypt and will say to him— and notice it's say, by the way, not direct, not order, not demand. Say is a very sweet word. Amar is not at all aggressive. God, Jehovah. Where you have the Lord, it means— where it says the Lord in big and little capitals in your translations, do you— most of you have the Lord?

Yes.

Okay, that means God's name Jehovah. Okay, it's important that you know that because God's name is very critical to these, uh, to the Torah, and especially to these, uh, chapters. So Jehovah, the God of the Hebrews, happened— it says here manifested himself to us, right? What do you have? Anybody have a different one? Happened. Happened. What translation is that?

Rashi.

Yeah, I know. Who published it though?

Metsudah.

Metsudah, yeah, that's more accurate. Happened upon us. What do you have? Hath met with us. Hath met with us. Okay, the most literal is happened upon us. This is very important. I will explain later, but please remember, this is God's orders to Moses. Tell them, Jehovah, the God of the Hebrews, happened upon us. And now, please, does it say? Yeah, well, let us go, but the word na is there, which is please. Please, we wish to go for a period of 3 days in the wilderness to sacrifice to Jehovah our God. You with me? That's what you are to ask Pharaoh. What does Moses in fact do to Pharaoh? Back to 5:1.

5:1.

So far you could tell already things are not going well because they ended up alone without the elders. It gets worse. Not only did the elders blow it, Moses blows it. Okay. So they said to Pharaoh, thus said Jehovah the God of Israel, let my people go so that— and that— so that they may celebrate to me in the wilderness. He blew it. I mean, it's not very close. Let me show you how much is different from what God told him to say. Okay, number 1, he says— God, he says to Pharaoh, they say to Pharaoh, God, Jehovah, The God of who? In 5:1.

Israel.

Israel. What did God tell him to say?

Hebrews.

Hebrews. Okay, he got that wrong. It's very important, the difference between the two, and I'll show you in a moment. Uh, next, uh, did he say please? I mean, I feel like with my 3-year-old, did you say please? You know. He didn't say please. Number 3, did God intimate in any way, let my people go? No. Let us please go for 3 days. Not let my people go. Moses comes in with no days. It's let my people go forever. Right? The whole divine tactic is blown. God says 3 days in the wilderness. He says, let my people go to celebrate me. That's very— so Hebrews, please let my people go. No 3 days. Everything has gotten wrong, as it were. You will then understand in part Pharaoh's reaction now. Pharaoh's is an obnoxious reaction, but aside from the obnoxiousness, God, being highly intelligent, foresaw why this could be the wrong way to do it. Uh, oh, I'm so sorry, I put it in the wrong part of my notes. I wanted to read to you about the, uh, elders dropping off. Remember I said I was going to read to you and then I didn't see it? This is from the Midrash. Where had the elders got to? For they are no longer listed, though the Almighty had commanded Moses, you must go, you and the elders of Israel. Our rabbis said the elders went along at the beginning but stealthily slipped away one by one, two by two, and disappeared. By the time they reached Pharaoh's palace, not one of them remained.

That's right.

This is witnessed by the text. After that, Moses and Aaron arrived, but where were the elders? They had slipped away. Okay, I just wanted to give you the actual source. All right, uh, by the way, there is an argument that they were there, and I will explain how that people make that argument, but I, I don't— it's not generally accepted, and I don't either. Uh, before I go to Moses's reaction, there is another very important element here. God's direction in 3:18 was, ask Pharaoh to go 3 days and, and to make sacrifices to me, right? Why was that God's request? Why, why, why not just say, as Moses did say, let my people go? It's always bothered me, incidentally. You know, was it, was it a joke? I mean, what if Pharaoh had said, 3 days to make sacrifices to your God? Have a good time. See you on Wednesday. Correct? What if Pharaoh had said that? I always wondered that as a kid. What if Pharaoh had actually said, that doesn't sound so terrible.

That's right.

You know, take a break. I'm a great guy. And that, and that was— it troubled the rabbis as well, historically, incidentally. What if he had given in? Is God— would God then be a liar? And it's— or a deceiver, at least. The, the general response that I think is best is That God knew that they wouldn't get that. And what you do is you show in negotiation you folks aren't even willing to give what's reasonable from your perspective. That's how unreasonable. Lest it ever be said, oh well, of course, what ruler is going to liberate all of his servants, right? But then you will always be able to say—

That's right.

After the punishments that will be enacted against Pharaoh? Are you kidding? This man wouldn't even allow a 3-day vacation after hundreds of years of slavery. Imagine in the South in the United States, if Lincoln, or if a slave leader, a black leader, would have said, all we're asking is for a 3-day break To worship. And, and plantation owners would have said, what, are you kidding? Of course not. Wouldn't it have shown them to be worse than if they had merely said no to let us all be free forever? The purpose of the request, just let us go 3 days' journey into the wilderness, was to show the morality of the request.

That's right.

Actually, of course, the lack of it to Pharaoh. And so that too has tremendous power here. And that's why Moses really did blow it in coming in and saying, let my people go. He should have come in and said exactly what God said with regard to that request. And, and now I'll show you why he also, uh, did a bad job here, Moses. With— by saying some of the other things he said. Verse 2, now Pharaoh's response. But Pharaoh said, or, and Pharaoh said, who is Jehovah that I should listen to his voice to send Israel out? I don't know Jehovah, and Israel I won't let go. Okay, now Sarna has a poetic point here, and then I'll do the less poetic. It's very interesting. What was Moses's response to God when God spoke to him? He says, "Who am I?" When when God's word is spoken to Pharaoh, Pharaoh's response. He has an interesting juxtaposition, right? Moses in Hebrew says, mi anochi? Who am I? And Pharaoh says, mi Adonai? Who's God? Right? It's just a very interesting and poetic juxtaposition of the, of the, of the civilizations that are clashing here, and obviously the men who were clashing here.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

When someone you love is hurting, what do you do? We're often quick to say, if there's anything I can do, just let me know. But what if we stopped waiting to be asked and simply showed up? On the If There Is Anything I Can Do podcast, Pam McConnell shares real stories, biblical wisdom, and practical ways to walk alongside people through grief, loss, and life's hardest moments. Learn how to show up and make a difference. Subscribe now at klovpodcast.com, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

There is more, however, that in this, in this sentence when he says, who is God? The idea, the idea of God is simply utterly foreign to To Moses, and it wants the reader— the Torah wants us to know how foreign the idea of God is to Moses. This, by the way, is a very powerful statement. One of the reasons I believe in the divine origins of the Torah is that things become more valuable. Certain verses take on value thousands of years later. For example, there is a, uh, there is a very tiny body of thought publicized today, unfortunately, by some Afrocentrists, that the idea of monotheism came from the Egyptians because of their belief in the sun god Ra. But it's almost as if, knowing that, the Torah put in 3,000 years ago Pharaoh's response, I don't know who you're talking about, so that it is utterly clear to any reader From that date on, it was clear the Egyptians never heard of this one God of the world. Okay? So again, what might have appeared less significant is profoundly significant. Pharaoh's statement, who? Is very important. He never heard of him, or at least acts— certainly acts that way. So that is, uh, that is Pharaoh's response. What is the significance of this? Then Moses realizes he blew it. Moses then realizes that what he was asked by God to say has— can you imagine Moses's reaction to Pharaoh? I mean, my God, I came here expecting him to say yes, right? God appears to him. God has all these signs. And he says, I'm sorry. And instead, who's God? And Israel, I'm not sending. Have a nice day. So Moses is obviously disturbed here. And then, as it were, he realizes, oh my God, I didn't do what I was told. Let me try the right request now. And changes everything. Notice, what does he say in 3?

I am the Lord your God.

The God of the Hebrews. Notice the switch now. Now he's talking as God told him, not God of Israel. Pharaoh doesn't know them as Israel. Pharaoh knows them as the Hebrews. Okay, he knows who Israel is, but he— they're called to them Hebrews. The God of the Hebrews. And now This is important. Again, it says, happened upon us. Though interestingly, and I need to do research on this, the word in Hebrew is identical, but the spelling is different from 3:18 to 5:3. 3:18, the word is nikra.

Nikra.

And there are many definitions to qarah, the Hebrew verb. One is called out, or called, and one is happened. In modern Hebrew, the same thing. Ma qarah? You'll hear that in Israel. What happened? So with a hey, it's happened. That's what God told Moses here again gets it a little wrong, if— because it's the aleph word and it's here where it's really called to us. But I'm going to leave it as happened. I just want you to know that that aleph and hey make a difference. At any rate, Moses recasts his vision of the Promised Land. What is the Promised Land?

Request.

First of all, it's no longer an order. Remember, "Shalach et ami," let my people go, was an order. But you're going to order Pharaoh, right? The first time you meet him, and and so on. So now God, the God of the Hebrews, okay, happened upon us, or called called to us, and he now uses please. May we please go— exactly like God told them to— for 3 days into the wilderness and sacrifice to Jehovah our God, lest, lest he strike us with pestilence or by the sword. Which he adds here, and that was a smart addition. This was not a bad addition, and I'll explain why it's a smart addition in a minute. But notice now it is recast entirely as God had told them to. Please let us go 3 days, no more. Let my people go. Can we please go for 3 days and then, and then sacrifice to God? And it is the God of the Hebrews. Now, um, let me start from the beginning of the sentence. He now has to talk Pagan talk to Pharaoh. Pharaoh is not an ethical monotheist. Pharaoh is a pagan. Pharaoh is a polytheist. So, first of all, he has to make clear, who is this God you asked me about? He's the God of the Hebrews. That makes total sense to a pagan. Everybody, every group has a god. So, in the ancient world, that perfectly makes sense. Oh, that's who you're talking about? A god? Now, but how do you get gods in the ancient world? How does it happen to be that this is the god of this group, or this is the god of this group? The answer is pointless. It's pointless. It's by caprice. Are you with me? The idea that there is purpose, divine purpose to the world, Is Jewish, is biblical. It ends all paganism, that idea. The previous idea was there are gods, like for example when I taught Noah, I taught about how it is that Utnapishtim, instead, in the Mesopotamian parable of the flood, is picked by his God. And that is because he's handsome. Okay? It's caprice.

Ah!

He's a good-looking guy, I'll save him. Noah is saved because he's decent and righteous. It's the dull difference in the world. So now we have here again, talk pagan, and that is what God told him to say. Talk pagan to Pharaoh, he won't understand you. Say, the God of the Hebrews happened upon us.

Not happened upon us.

There is divine revelation to humanity, and he is using us as a vehicle and messenger to humanity. Get it? That will not do well. This God, the God of the Hebrews, who happened upon us— let me read to you Nehama Leibovitch, uh, the great— she is one of the great scholars of our time.

And, uh, Let me see if I got it.

Let's see what page, what page am I on?

What?

It said 96. One second. Yeah. Happened upon us. The Nekralayim, who happened upon us, predicated of God, has in Hirsch's view, following ancient rabbinic exegesis, unmistakable idolatrous associations. It reflects a worldview that attributes everything To blind chance. Even the encounter with God. Compare Balaam, the pagan priest later in Numbers, his words, perhaps the Lord will chance to meet me. That's how he speaks later in Numbers, a pagan priest. Get it? Will perchance happen.

Nikareh.

Nikareh, all right, to me. In other words, the God of whom we have had no experience over the last 300 years and more chanced or happened and called on us to offer him sacrifice. That's what he is saying. These are words Pharaoh can understand. Okay, and by the way, this interesting addition After all, Pharaoh could say, that's quite a God you have, allowing you, allowing you to suffer for 300 years. You might want to consider our God. We do a lot better with Him. So that too would make sense to Pharaoh. Ah, he finally by chance happened to call upon us. You get it? This will make sense to Pharaoh. Now, why does he add, Moses, lest He strike us with pestilence or sword. If we don't do this, we believe our God will kill us. You want to lose your slaves?

Mm-hmm.

The us, by the way, can hint, depending on how Moses's body language was at the moment, could have hinted at all of us are going to get killed. Get it? Even Egyptians. But so the us is, is somewhat ambiguous. Okay, so now they finally did it. Moses and Aaron finally did it right. They add please, they do the 3 days, they say God of Hebrews. Okay, now at least they're gonna get an answer. It's a miserable answer, but at least Pharaoh understands. He doesn't go, what? He gives them an answer. Verse 4. And he said to them— the king of Egypt said to them— Moses and Aaron, why are you bothering this nation from its— why are you disturbing it from its works? Go back to your labors. This, by the way, go back to your labors, is the one— there is a tiny group of medieval rabbis who wanted to believe the elders really did show up and said this can't possibly refer to Moses and Aaron who weren't working. Okay? So that maybe he was referring to them. I just want you to know that there is that body of thought. I don't buy it. So, go back to your, go back to your labors. Why are you bothering these people? Why are you disturbing their, their fine? You're stirring them up. And of course, this immediately places the blame for what is going to happen on Moses and Aaron. Okay, verse five. And Pharaoh said, "You know, there are very there are a lot of them in the land today, and you are you would have them stop working." In other words, are you joking? I'm going to let this massive army of workers leave, take off, go on strike. The Hebrew here, "והשפטם." Is to this day in Hebrew, a shvita is a strike. So it could actually be, you're going to let them— I'm going to have them go on strike? You must be joking. So then, 6, Pharaoh orders that day— it's very important that it says that day.

That day.

Because Pharaoh wanted it clear to the Hebrews that it was because of Moses and Aaron coming to him that the following was going to happen. You with me? That day Pharaoh commands the taskmasters and the foremen, saying, You will no longer provide the people with straw for making bricks as heretofore. Let them go and gather straw for themselves. Which is horrible. I mean, when you think about it, they have to make it themselves, not only build themselves. They have to make the bricks with the straw. They have to go and collect it. And they have to gather it. And, uh, impose upon them the exact same quota as they had been before. Do not reduce it because they shirk— they're shirkers. And by, by yelling, going out and yelling, hey, let's go and sacrifice to our God. Of course, he uses the universal term for God, not Jehovah. Make the work heavier. And by the way, it is the same word as God making Pharaoh's heart hard. The same work. And I'm sure that there is— again, the Torah is— if there's any one word that would animate its passion, it's justice. Very deep believer in justice. If you did X, you deserve anti-X. If you made their work kavod, I'm gonna make your heart kavod, which I talked about last week about the issue of free will, and I hope you remember it or get the tape or both. Make the work heavier on the people, on the men, and let them do it and don't let them pay attention To, uh, lying words.

Phew!

So Pharaoh's response to Moses and Aaron is immediate and awesome. Make it much harder and make it clear that it's because they're shirkers. Now, of course, the interesting thing is the people are going to say, what do you mean shirkers? And then the word's going to get around. Yeah, well, Moses and Aaron went and said we should take a 3-day holiday.

Hmm.

You with me? That's how he does it. Because otherwise they wouldn't understand, why is Pharaoh doing this? So he says, because you're shirkers. You want to go out and, and do these things. To which he is wanting, obviously, the Jews to say, get out of here, Moses and Aaron! Things were bad before you came. They're hell now! We never asked to have this 3-day feast to God. What are you doing to us? That is the whole purpose of what Pharaoh is doing here. Uh, and so the taskmasters and the foremen went out and said to the people, thus said Pharaoh, using the same words, ko amar, as, as Moses said, thus said God. Pharaoh is God. In other words, which ko amar do you want to listen to? Which thus said? Jews, thus said your, your God, or thus said Pharaoh. We're going to show you that the thus said that really matters is the thus said of Pharaoh, not ko amar Adonai, but ko amar Pharaoh. I— and so thus said Pharaoh, I am not giving you straw. You must go and get the straw yourselves. Wherever you'll find it, but there is no reduction from— not the slightest, not an iota of reduction of your work. And the people scattered throughout Egypt in order to find stubble for straw. And the taskmasters pressed them. This is 13, saying, you must complete the same work assignment each day as when you had straw. So there are 2, there are 2 levels of overseers to the Hebrews: taskmasters and foremen. You with me?

Yes.

Foremen Taskmasters are Egyptians. It is eerie beyond words how similar it is to what the Nazis did with Judenrat, with Jewish councils in gathering the Jews, and with the— what was the— huh?

The Kapos.

The Kapos, right. With the kapos in the death camps and concentration camps. To the extent possible, it was Jews over Jews, so that it's even more demoralizing, and the dirty work is done by them. And again, it's profoundly demoralizing. That's the worst part of it. Just exactly as the Nazis did, Pharaoh did. And the foremen of the Israelites, whom Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them— you see, it goes out of its way to say they didn't take this role as foremen over the fellow Jews. They were made into foremen over their fellow slaves, their fellow Hebrews, by Pharaoh. Okay? They were beaten. Why they were asked— why were they beaten? Because they were asked, why did you not complete the prescribed amount of bricks either yesterday or today as you did before? Now, it's very interesting that they were beaten, and according to Leibowitz at least, the Israelite foremen were beaten because obviously they didn't meet the quota. They didn't meet the quota. the Israelites didn't fulfill their work quota. It's Rashi— excuse me— Rashi says the foremen couldn't mistreat their Jews enough to make them meet the quota. Liebowitz's words: rather than beat their brothers, they suffered a beating. And I think that that's right. A lot of times Rashi just wants to show the Jews in a good light, but I think in this case it is a fair one, that the foremen just didn't have it in them to beat their fellow Hebrews that they wanted, that the Egyptians wanted, and so took the beating themselves from the taskmasters who were the Egyptians. Then the foremen of the Israelites came to Pharaoh and cried. It's actually in Hebrew, it's more than cried. Tsa'ak is screamed. It's screaming crying. It's crying from pain. It's not vayivku, you know, sobbing or weeping. This was painful crying out. Why are you dealing thus with your servants? In these 2 sentences, your servants, avadecha, which of course in Hebrew is difficult, The word for servant and the word for slave is the same, which is probably why to this day Jews don't like to be servants, because they think it's slavery. Did you ever meet a Jewish waiter?

No.

I guess you didn't, otherwise you would have laughed. That's part of the reason you never met a Jewish waiter, is because Jews don't wait. I am not kidding. I am convinced that the, the fact that servant and slave is the same word has helped develop that and many other things, like the chosen people notion, that Jews don't want to serve anybody. And it has historically been that way. It's a fascinating sociological and psychological phenomenon. It may be all off base, but I don't think so. That's why I'm offering it, not as a way-out thought. At any rate, Why are you doing this? Why are you acting this way to your servants? Again, 3 times in 2 verses, your servants. No straw is issued to your servants, yet they demand of us. Notice it doesn't say you demand of us. You, you don't know. It's almost impossible to appreciate the insight of this text.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

When someone you love is hurting, what do you do? We're often quick to say, if there's anything I can do, just let me know. But what if we stopped waiting to be asked and simply showed up? On the If There Is Anything I Can Do podcast, Pam McConnell shares real stories, biblical wisdom, and practical ways to walk alongside people through grief, loss, and life's storms. Hardest moments. Learn how to show up and make a difference. Subscribe now at klovpodcast.com, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

Do you— did you ever wonder, my field of study, which if you didn't know, you wouldn't guess if people gave you 8,000 guesses, was communist affairs? I mean, just how many people study that? Actually, I'd be unemployed today if I went into it as a field. I'm glad I didn't, and I'm glad I would be unemployed. At any rate, that was my field, and I spent a lot of time studying, obviously, communist countries. And I remember when I was studying Stalin and his death, March 5th, 1953, afterwards, the Soviet Union was in a state of chaos. There were massive, massive displays of weeping and wailing in Russia. Now, how do you do that? How do you weep and wail for the greatest tyrant in history, with the exception of Hitler? And arguably, with regard to his own people, worse. Not arguably, he was. Hitler didn't kill one quintillionth the number of Germans and other Soviet citizens. And yet there was all that weeping. When I read texts about, for example— oh, this is an even more powerful example. Do any of you know that in the 1930s there were enormous show trials in the Soviet Union, in Moscow, where Stalin had major communist figures, Called purged. The word is purged, meaning constantly removing any possible threat to his leadership. So he would take the communist leadership and then put them in trials, torture them, or threaten the death of their families if they didn't go on the trial and say they were spies for America or, or were there to sabotage all the electricity of Russia. Are you with me?

Yes.

Do you know what these prisoners would say in prison to their torturers and interrogators? Let me just speak to Stalin. He would understand what a terrible mistake my being arrested was. They couldn't believe that Stalin gave the orders for their own death.

That's right.

What are they saying to Pharaoh here? They're not saying, look, no straw is issued to your servants, yet you demand— they're saying you as your servants, they could continue the sentence— yet you demand make bricks. No, they're demanding in a, an A slave mentality is precisely the mentality of, my owner can do no wrong. You with me? There must be some mistake here, Pharaoh. It's your— it's your— you don't realize what was ordered of us. You get it now? How it's interesting how they switched it from your servants Not you ordered, they ordered. Why do they say 3 times in 1 sentence, 2 verses, your servants? To repeatedly assert to Pharaoh, our fidelity to you is second to none. Please know we are faithful, we're your servants, Your servants. It's the groveling technique that is, that is used here. 17. He replied, you're shirkers, you're shirkers, and therefore, because you're shirkers, you say, let's go and make sacrifices To our— to Jehovah. He uses Jehovah there. And now be off to your work. No straw shall be issued to you, but you must produce your quota of bricks. Not a successful meeting. Now the foremen of the Israelites—

19.

Found themselves in trouble Because of the order. You— because of the order, you must not reduce your daily quantity of bricks. Why did they find themselves in trouble? It's obvious. This is what they have to pass on. They're the— oh, they're the ones who have to give these orders to the— to the Israelites. As they left Pharaoh's presence, They bumped in, or they, they met Moses and Aaron standing in their path. It's very touching. It's as if Moses and Aaron had some guilt, and they did, feeling terrible that this had happened, and were like standing there almost sheepishly waiting for these men.

And they were.

To meet with them. In other words, the, the foreman did not have to call Moses and Aaron. You get it? That's very important. They, they were like— they were waiting outside the palace, as it were, to speak with them. And they said to them— that is, the foreman said to Moses and Aaron— May, may God look upon you and punish you for making us loathsome to Pharaoh. And his courtiers, putting a sword in their hand to slay us. Can you imagine how Moses and Aaron must have felt? Especially Moses. He never wanted the job. I am certain as I stand before you that Moses at this point is saying, I didn't want this. I didn't need this.

I was happy in Midian.

I was happy in Midian. I am ticked off at God. There is no doubt. And you'll see he is ticked off at God. He yells at him. But he's ticked off not only because things got worse, he didn't want it. I needed this trouble. Life was wonderful. Wife and kids, a father-in-law who liked me, right? I begged not to have this. I He knew it was a problem. So he— I mean, how does he feel? He probably wants to say this to the foreman, what do you want me to do? But he can't say that. You know, what do you want me to do? What do we want you to do? Not go to Pharaoh. That's what we want. Did we ask you to go to Pharaoh?

Right.

We didn't ask you. So the foreman had absolute— it's totally understandable why they're so angry. You should, you should be punished. You, you made us loathsome. God should punish you. But of course, that's the irony. God stuck me here, you know. Punish me? You know what, you know, he's— so anyway, then Moses returned to God right after that. And this, my friends, is a very, very powerful, uh, 2 verses. This is Not unique, but almost unique in the Torah. There are arguments with God, but there— I don't know of any accusations against God. Okay, Abraham argues, are you gonna kill everybody? You know, what if there are 50 righteous? That's a— that's an argument. This is an attack.

You That's—

in that regard, it is unique. And it is why I, whenever these things occur in the Torah, I always reemphasize this is what makes me in part a believer, a believing Jew, because I have fights with God, and my religion not only allows it, it cultivates it.

And it's not just that.

The greatest Jew who ever lived attacked God. By the way, the whole idea of this— and then I'll talk to you, we'll obviously read the attack— is fascinating. Don't you think if God met you that that would answer all your questions?

Mm-hmm.

I think that. After all, you know, I think it was Woody Allen in one of his either movie or one of his funny little essays, said, you know, I don't, I don't— For answers, I just don't have them. And yet all these people meet God and still have questions. So certitude of God's existence apparently doesn't answer all our questions. That's what has always boggled me about these arguments with God. I mean, if God is really God, who am I to argue? And yet, for some reason that I cannot understand, because I never met God like this, it doesn't answer that. They're certain of God. I mean, to Moses, the idea of atheism would be ludicrous. He would be denying his own experience, right? So it's not a question that there's— if atheism is possible. But there are questions. Oh, are you God? What is your nature? See, that's why, ladies and gentlemen, we ask wrong questions a lot of times, and that's why a lot of people are theologically confused. People say, for example, I can't believe in God after the Holocaust. That, to me, doesn't make sense. What makes sense is to say, I don't understand God, or, I don't love God. That makes sense to me. The issue with God is really, I— we don't understand how a good God has a world of such horror. That's what the confusion is. But deep down, do you really think everything is total accident? There's nothing out there? Most people don't think that. Most people in their gut think there's something, just some— even a deist, there's somebody. Some intelligence is behind all this. That's why these questions are sharp. They're not, oh, Moses could have gone, ah, there's no God. Because that's so silly. He knows there's a God. He's ticked off at God. And you're allowed to be in Judaism. Does God punish Moses for being angry at him? You will see, in no way. Unlike, by the way, When God got finally annoyed with him trying to get out of the mission, right, at the burning bush. Here there is complete acceptance of Moses' attacks. Total acceptance. Because to do otherwise, God would have been unfair. I send you to do a task, you do the task, and you get clobbered for it. I understand you're annoyed. But of course, that's not why Moses is annoyed.

No.

And that's Moses's greatness. Now, now what is his attack? Moses returned to God and said, "God, why did you bring harm?" In Hebrew, it's much more powerful. Lama hareota from the word ra. Why did you do evil? That's the Hebrew. I can't stand when they, when they, you know, give you rose-colored interpretations. Why did you do evil? I mean, folks, do you understand that? A man talking to God and saying, why did you do evil? Not let it happen. You did it. He's saying, we ask with Auschwitz, why did you let it happen? Why did you let it happen? He said, why did you do it? That's the most direct— you can't get worse than that attack. Just tell God to his face, you did evil. And then, so he asks 2 things. He has 2 great questions: why did you do evil, and why did you send me? Right? It's not working. And I'm not happy with this job.

Could you—

what do companies do when they send you to another city? What's the word?

Relocate.

Relocate, yes. Would you relocate me, please? I hear that there are problems in Babylon. Perhaps I could handle some of those. Since I came to Pharaoh to speak in your name— that's the beauty of it, to speak in your name— he has done evil. Same word, heira. Same word. That's really digging into God. You and Pharaoh did the same thing. Wow. Do you realize there's nothing like this in Biblical literature of the Bible of any religion I am aware of. Its leading prophet accusing God of evil. That's staggering stuff, and nobody points this out. I don't see this as isolated. Everybody knows Job, but Job just questioned, I don't understand, how come? I was a good guy.

That's it.

This is, by the prophet of God, the most direct Communicated to God in Jewish history, yelling at God for being evil, comparing God to Pharaoh. He did evil, you did evil, same word. In your name I came to Pharaoh, and since then he has done evil. See, look at this, dealt worse. He did evil to these— this nation, this people, and You have certainly not saved your people.

This is actually a big accusation.

It's a big accusation. Exactly. Now, the truth is, God does have an answer. He doesn't use it, though. That's why I have to hand it to God. I do. I really do. Because God has a very— you know what? God has a very rational response. Can anybody guess what God's absolutely— do you think you know what? I would say his absolute response to Moses, I told you what to say. He's right. No, oh, oh, I'm sorry, you're almost right. I thought you had it on the nose. Better than that, he said, Moses, I told you what to say, you flubbed the mission. But he didn't really flub the mission because he, he did it the second time. He did ask it right the second time. That would be fair, but God would look terribly petty then because everybody reading would go, this is what God comes up with? Blames it on Moses? Give me a break. No, God had a— God does have a legit answer. The legit answer is, this is exactly What I told you would happen.

Mhm.

That's the legit answer. Please look at 3:19. And that's why when God doesn't make this answer, I am very impressed with God, which I know does not move God, but you might be moved by it, because, uh, God really has A legit answer in this case. Nineteen. I know that the king of Egypt, excuse me one tickle tickle tickle tickle tickle tickle tickle tickle tickle tickle. Yeah, will not will not let you go. I don't know why they have this is such strange translation here. It says here will let you go only because of greater might. In Hebrew it is, you will ask God these things. Remember, we did 3:18, and then God says in 3:19, and I know that he won't let you go only with very— after I show great powers and might and signs and hit them. Right? Which he hasn't done. So we could say, wait a minute. I told you he's not gonna let you go. God doesn't say that. Moses is impatient, plus terribly personally annoyed, and that's why he said, why did you send me? He's not only annoyed that it's worse for the Jews— and to his credit, that's his first complaint, that it's been made worse for the Hebrews, right? But he's personally annoyed. You sent me And you made me, you made me look, you made me hated, right? For a mission that I didn't ask for. So God could have said to him, I told you this would happen, because he did tell him this would happen. Now that's an interesting question then. If he did tell him it would happen, why is he so angry?

Who knows?

And that raises not an issue about Moses, because Moses is human. That's why the answer is Moses is human. That's why he's angry. Okay, let's be honest. Uh, and there's another whole dimension about this issue that I want to raise. But what does faith mean? I mean it. I'm not sure I have an answer. Everybody thinks they know. Oh, I have faith in God. What does that mean? Well, the 2 most obvious answers are, I believe that there is a God. That's faith in God, right? The other is, I have faith, meaning I have trust. I trust that— in God, meaning that things will be for the good. Okay, is that correct? It also seems that faith necessitates what the theologians call a leap of faith, that the human being has to jump over reason. In other words, on reason alone, you don't know there's a God, right? Reason can argue for a God, but you still need faith. But what— but here is a man who knew there is a God. How could he then lack faith? That proves to me that there really are 2 types of faith. Faith that there is a God, which Moses obviously doesn't have a problem with, and faith that God will deliver. You see, those are utterly distinct. That's the problematic faith, and apparently even if God meets you You still don't know for certain without faith. You need faith in God, not that he exists, but that he's trustworthy. For which reason God's answer coming up is entirely about being trustworthy, because that's the faith problem of Moses. I don't— I obviously don't trust you. That's what he's saying. I don't trust you. And so God, by not getting angry or dismissing Moses but utterly answering directly, shows, you know what, my trustworthiness is has not been exhibited at all. You are right to have no faith in me. That's— I get the chills as I tell it to you, because that's the— that is the connection between his questions and God's answer in chapter 6 that's coming up. There's another incredibly important point in Moses's I have long believed, and I owe my dear friend Joseph Telushkin credit for really helping me crystallize my thoughts on this, many— we did it 20 years ago, probably. And we, we realized a very interesting difficulty. It is probably difficult, if not impossible, to love God and love humanity, humans, at the same time.

That's right.

You would think, what's the big problem? I mean, after all, love God and love man is, uh, it's just the basis of every decent faith. It is the basis of every decent faith, and it's a very difficult basis, and I'll tell you why. If you really love people, then you so cry for their pain that it's difficult to love God.

Hmm.

And if you're really intoxicated with love of God, it can come at the price of really feeling the pain of human beings. Because if you really feel their pain, it's gonna have to raise questions about God. That's why it's— that is the basis of great religiosity, and it's a very difficult one to meet. That is why I have no doubt that there have been people who loved God And, uh, who believed deeply in God, who could torture people because they were able to utterly separate the two. It's when you really feel for people that the questions about God arise. If you don't really feel for people, then those questions don't particularly arise. I think that's a very good point. And that's why I love Moses, and that's why Moses is the quintessential Jew, because for Jews there has always been that difficulty. And that is why Jews in the 19th and 20th century went off the deep end for love of humanity and became atheists. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. The Jews who embraced all the radical ideologies like Marxism and socialism were intoxicated with love of humanity and, and just inexorably believed it must come with atheism. I can't— if I love the world, I reject and even perhaps hate the notion of God. And by the way, They had some reason, because a lot of people who seemed to be intoxicated with God didn't give a damn about people. They would— whether, for example, they would see Christians, oh, let's say, who would be very deeply involved in monasteries, but around them was mass torture and and, and, you know, children dying en masse and being beaten. Now, I certainly don't characterize all of Christianity that way. Every one of you knows that. I'm just saying, though, they had reason to see that there were God-intoxicated people who didn't care about people. They loved God, prayed all day, and, and couldn't care less if people died of starvation. That's not true. Children died of starvation. And that's why you had atheist, socialist, radical, humanity-oriented movements. The irony though is, and that is why loving God and loving man is so critical, that when you end up without God, you also ended up with human destructive ideas. So the ideas founded by people-loving atheists ended up destroying more people than any religion ever did. We are stuck with God. God is stuck with us, and we are stuck with God. That really is, is the only way to resolve this problem. You have to love both. You have to love God. If you only love man, you will end up with moral chaos, because where will good and evil come from if there is no God? If you only love God, you will end up with moral chaos, because you will not care about the suffering of humanity. Both must be loved. At this point, Moses, the good man, Is angry at God and is not in love with God. He is in love with these Hebrew slaves who are being tortured. That's the power of these 2 verses. All of these, all of these ideas, the nature of faith, and that there is— there does seem to be a virtual exclusivity, mutually exclusive, Love of man, love of God. Given the serious nature of these points, are there any questions now? Because we're at the end of chapter 5, and I'm debating whether to start with God's answer because I don't mind, you know, ending in the middle of a chapter.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

When someone you love is hurting, what do you do? We're often quick to say, if there's anything I can do, just let me know. But what if we stopped waiting to be asked and simply showed up? On the If There Is Anything I Can Do podcast, Pam McConnell shares real stories, biblical wisdom, and practical ways to walk alongside people through grief, loss, and life's hardest moments. Learn how to show up and make a difference. Subscribe now at klovpodcast.com, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

I do want to take Going to the nature of what I just spoke, any comments or questions if you have them now? Yes.

The people that I know who are seem to be in hospitality with God, I think that they might say that they would not feel at all that they do not love mankind. It would be that they believe that God loves us all and that there are reasons. For the terrible things that happen, and that it is more reason to find ways to serve God when you have these terrible things happen to you.

Okay, you're saying that the people you know who are in love with God would argue that they are in love with God and they know that God loves everybody?

And that they do care about humanity.

And that these people care about humanity? Oh, I don't— I know that there are such people. I also know that there are others who believe that serving God is distinctive from serving humanity. Well, I'll give you a very simple question, and this is a tough one. I asked this to an Orthodox Jewish friend of mine. It's a very tough question to answer. If you spend— let's say you spend 8 hours a day studying Torah in the broadest sense, as the Orthodox would use it, for Talmud and all holy works. Those are hours that theoretically you could have also visited the sick. I'm not— this is not an attack on the study of Torah 8 hours a day, and certainly doing that is better than watching TV 8 hours a day or practicing some forms of law. But, uh, the, uh— but, uh, but that is a very honest question. And, and that to me, if you love man as much as you love God, how is your ratio so lopsided in serving God versus serving man? Why is the ratio 10 to 1? Well, And anybody who argues that studying Torah serves humanity is arguing in a mystical— on a mystical basis that I just can't relate to. In real terms, no other humans are benefiting.

I understand what you're saying. The people I'm talking about actually are Orthodox. I am not Orthodox, but I am fascinated by the subject. With, um, mitzvot. And if we follow God's word, he tells us that this is what we're supposed to do as we're learning, that we go out and perform.

Fine. She's saying, for the record and the microphone, that, uh, we are studying— that one studies the Torah, let's say, to continue on in the Jewish arena, and that teaches you how then to be better towards humans. I agree with you, but my question remains: if the ratio of study to doing is 10 to 1, we have a problem. And I mean it as a problem. This is not an attack. I mean it as an actual— I am saying to you, I do believe that there is a problem, that there is a terrible tension Of loving God and loving man. I am saying that to you. I'm not arguing this, uh, uh, to, to make problems for any group. I'm saying this is a legitimate dilemma Moses is facing right here. Said, I see the suffering of the people, so I am ticked off at you. These are not loving words spoken to God. You can— Abraham spoke lovingly when he argued with God. This is not loving. He is angry at an evil-doing God, period. You're stinking up the situation. Get me out of it. I'm angry at you, and it is not the anger of love. He may come later. He has love later. Right now, this is not. And I understand that, and so does every one of you. When you see pictures of Auschwitz, Or, or Rwanda or Bosnia or you name it, I— it does not fill you with love of God. It doesn't make me an atheist, but it doesn't say hallelujah, praise the Lord. It's not my reaction. Which is why, which is why you have to, however, look the other way at the interesting correlation. Just as human evil Gets you angry at God, or at least you, you feel a gulf. Human beauty and kindness makes you more religious. Seeing beautiful human acts, for the religious— for me at any rate, I'll just speak for me— brings me closer to God. Ah, now I understand that you've created a creature in your image. Now I understand. as you want us to? It's— it is an actual dilemma, and I think that a lot of people in religion, in Islam, in the 3 monotheistic faiths— Islam, Christianity, and Judaism— have, uh, have gone overboard in the love of God, and at a price. There is a price for the love of God. Not always. There are some people intoxicated with love of God, intoxicated with love of man, they're the best.

Agreed.

But for some, because if you're not careful, it can easily happen. Listen, uh, you know, I'll give you a, a not fully accurate analogy. How much time, if you are, if you are a married parent, how much time do you spend with your I argue you can so love your children that you can end up deflecting from your love for your spouse. And indeed, less common, but it happens, you can so love your spouse, your children suffer neglect.

I think that's a very good point.

Love is not an— you know, it's not an un— it's— theoretically, it's an unlimited commodity in feeling, but it's not an unlimited commodity in deed. And frankly, love of deed is more important than love of feeling. Well then, in that case, it is very important to know how you express that love, to really understand how much you love. Oh, I love my wife? And I check in with her, uh, for 2 hours a week. Well, that's, you know, it's an interesting notion of love.

Yeah.

But loving people is loving God. Loving people isn't loving God. Loving people is doing what God wants us to do, but I don't believe it is, it is the same. It, it could be an expression of love for God. It isn't necessarily, unless you argue that there are no atheists who can love people.

Hmm.

And I'm sure that there are atheists who love people. In fact, I know it. Yehuda Bauer has devoted his life— he is the greatest, one of the 2, 3 greatest Holocaust historians of the world— he has devoted his life to, to It's the scholarly pursuit of this horror. He's a member of a kibbutz and a professor. He is an atheist. I know him personally. He's one of the most decent people I have ever known in my life. If he were religious, people would use him as an example of the beauty of religiosity. And he's not agnostic, atheist. Yes?

Why do you have to put the onus of evil on God? I can separate what's happened Yes, you're right.

Why— she asked, why do you put the onus of evil on God? You can separate the evil in the world from God. So could I. Otherwise, believe me, I wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't be here today. I'd be at a Halloween party. Uh, the, uh— But Moses is right. You made it worse. Moses is absolutely correct here. There's no separation. I did what you said, and now they're tortured.

Why does God play these games?

Hold on a sec. Yes. Yep. Well, there's also the theological dilemma there, which isn't always practical, that if God gives all and everything, he then must take a share in that which exists in the world. Ah, so your answer to her is that in fact With all the evil in the world, God is partially responsible. He made the world. I, I believe— I think you're right. Uh, I— you're right, providing you also credit God with the good. You see, here's where balance is critical. People will say, look at all the evil, I blame God, but then they don't give God credit for all the good. It's almost like you can only have a prosecutor but no defense attorney for God. Of course, that theological basis is the justification for Moses' attack. God must bear some of that responsibility.

Well, no, no.

Moses' attack is more real than even what you are just saying. God is the source of the evil that just was increased to the Jews in Egypt, as directly. You cannot say God is the cause of Auschwitz. Okay? God didn't cause that. You could say God caused it insofar as Indirectly, he created a being that could enjoy freezing human beings to death. Or stepping back, he is the causative factor. Well, he's— but all right, but he's the causative factor of Mother Teresa picking up the dead in Calcutta too. That's what I'm saying. You're right. That's why love is difficult of God. Yes.

Isn't—

in plain language, isn't part of the lesson here Uh, that faith requires that we have a more long-sighted view rather than short-sighted, and if Moses could have looked ahead, he would have enjoyed a greater faith because he knew it was going to turn out okay anyway. Good. I, I wish each word were recorded that you said, and I'm smiling because you fell into a religious trap. You said, doesn't faith require a long-term view? Yeah, it requires a long-term view, but if you take a long-term view, you end up loving individuals living in the short term much less.

Okay.

I can't say to a Jew in Egypt who is now literally dying of work, listen, in the long run, the Jews are going to get out of here. You personally will be whipped and beaten to death, but you should feel really good. knowing that in the long run he's going to come through Jehovah. I, I, in all honesty, I— there is some truth to that. And to a truly believing Jew, uh, and there, and there certainly are many, uh, and there were in Auschwitz, they did go to the gas chamber, uh, singing the Shema. Uh, there were too many instances of this for this to be apocryphal. And they, they did take the long This Jewish people will outlive this Nazism, and certainly has. And there was an Israel, and Germany was cut in half. And Germany's name in the world, for, as one of the Nuremberg defendants said, will be an evil name, or associated with evil for generations. And it is. And the Jews have their state. And I just got a letter from a a German girl of 17 years of age in Germany who read my book on Judaism in German and is now converting to Judaism. And I felt when I read it, that's revenge! That, you see, I have always felt not buying Volkswagens was emotionally cathartic but stupid. The real way to get back is to convert convert Germany to Judaism. Agreed? Yes?

I think that, uh, we have some sort of written word that God toughened Hitler's heart. The entire debate on whether or not evil came because men did it to men, or it was God who actually directed it to men, Moses is right. God did it correctly. He strengthened Pharaoh's heart. And Moses wasn't saying that this was going to pass, but God said it's going to take— it's not going to happen right away, and I'm going to have to show my signs. He never said, and by the way, it's going to get a lot worse for you people.

Good point.

Moses is absolutely right that he had no clarity. Now he's saying to God, what position did you put me in? You did this. You did this to my people. You put me in a position. Now I have to explain it.

You're defending Moses' attack even more than I was, because I said God had a legitimate answer. I told you he wouldn't let them go. But you're right, it isn't. You're right, absolutely, because he— God didn't say it's going to be worse. The specifics were not given, just that he won't let them out. Uh, so it's, it's semi-legitimate, but your, your point, it makes, it makes it Correctly, it's a valid sharpening of Moses's attack.

Moses is right in the fact that God actually did it, not just that—

Oh yeah, I said that. Yeah, I said God did it, right, as opposed to Auschwitz. God did it. That's right. Yes, it is. I, I'm with you. That's why, that's why, I mean, I suspect that all of you, or nearly all of you, are familiar with Abraham's arguing with God if there are 50 righteous, or of God wanting to destroy the Jews and Moses arguing. For some reason, these 2 verses just don't get any attention, and I consider them the most radical verses of the Bible. They speak to us today so directly. This is what we would ask.

Not 50.

Why?

What if there are 50 righteous people in Japan, you know, will you still drop the bomb? Which is an interesting philosophical question. This is directed at God directly. You're the cause of evil. I'm sick of this. Get me out of this. And God, you will see, uh, so it does work out perfectly ending chapter 5. You will see God Finds the question legitimate. He actually enters a defensive mode. That is what is so fascinating about the next chapter's beginning. You're right. God doesn't say the words, you're right, but doesn't have to. The God that you are yelling at, God will say, is not the God you know. To a certain extent, it's not the God that we know. Because except that, can a Jew today say that God keeps his long-term— where's my long-term friend— long-term promises? See, that's the difficulty. On the one hand, the resurrection of a Jewish state argues incredibly for the existence of God. There is no parallel to this on this planet, correct?

Correct.

Prophecies coming true 2,000 years later after people should have died out. No other people got dispersed and stayed alive and then resurrected itself. On the other hand, was it worth all the suffering of 2,000 years of Diaspora Jewry? Was it worth the Holocaust? Was it worth the pogroms? Was it worth the Crusades? It's not for us to know. It's for us to have faith that God might think that so. Yes, I fully agree with you. He says— I fully theologically, not humanly agree. He says it's not for us to know. It's only for us to know that God does have a system here. This itself raises a tremendous interesting question which I won't answer. Because I don't have an answer. I grew up Orthodox, and I'm very happy I did. And it was a given that every Jew in the Middle Ages who died rather than converted to Christianity when that was their choice— accept Christ or be killed— was a martyr who died sanctifying God's name martyrs who died sanctifying God's name. I accept that totally. It's a fact. When I had my first child, I saw them differently. When, as a single young man, martyrdom made— was just clearly the option to take. You're a father now? If somebody said to me today, accept X or we kill your family, I don't know what I would do. And I am a deeply believing Jew. But am I going to say, oh sure, kill my wife, me, and my children? Me, I can handle. Me, yeah, I know, I know, my principles are pretty inviolate. I'll die. Like my wife and kids? I'm going to give their lives up for this, for the long-term view? I'm agnostic on that question. So you'd be loving God more than what's here and now?

No.

Well, yes, I guess to use the framework that I put it in, one other way of putting it might be I would be I would be saying there are things more important than life. Not so much I'm loving God more than my family. If I spent all my time studying Torah and neglecting my kids, I could say I have chosen God over my family. I think that's a very different thing. But give up what you believe in, live a life that you don't believe in for the sake of keeping your people, your family alive as inauthentic people, is a different question.

On tomorrow's Sunday Fireside Chat.

I was in the Soviet Union at the age of 21. I was sent in to smuggle things in and smuggle things out because of my knowledge of Russian and other reasons. And anyway, I So I, I became aware, although I was even before I went, of what totalitarianism is at a very, very young age. So let me tell you something. This is not new. When I came back to the US and I started lecturing immediately, I started at a very young age of 21. People would invite me, young man just came back from the Soviet Union. You know, nobody knew the name Dennis Prager, of course. But I was sort of somewhat of a collector's item having been in the Soviet Union and what was it like. And I knew how to speak, so I got these speeches. And after about a year, maybe even less, but let's say a year, I actually would say in my lectures, ladies and gentlemen, it is clear to me that speaking to people living in freedom about totalitarianism means very little.

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