Should Being Loved Be Your Goal? | Ultimate Issues Hour

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On today's episode of Timeless Wisdom.

Hi Dennis, thanks for taking my call. I just want to tell you thank you because you're one of the few people out there that are truly addressing issues such as clergy members desiring to be loved and the unhealthy consequences of that. I've seen this firsthand. It's happened to people that I know and care about. And what I was telling your screener is you wind up with at least 2 So you have 2 unhealthy extremes. You have a pastor or a reverend who wants to be loved and develops unhealthy, inappropriate relationships with people in his congregation.

Right, and not even necessarily romantic or sexual, just unhealthy.

That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

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To be or not to be, that is the question.

Where was God?

Isn't God supposed to be good?

Isn't he supposed to love us?

Does God want us to suffer? 10 years, you're not finished yet?

Morty!

Why did you do this to me?

Who are you?

Bruce, I am God.

Bingo!

Yahtzee!

Is that your final answer? Our survey says God! Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing!

Well, it was nice to meet you, God.

Thank you for the Grand Canyon, and good luck with the apocalypse. And welcome to the Ultimate Issues Hour. Every week at this time, I, Dennis Prager, bring to you a discussion on one of the great issues of life. And I welcome you again. Today's is about love and a very specific aspect of love, my friends, and that is who and when should seek to be loved. Should a person seek to be loved? Under what circumstances should that, that be The most important thing you want from somebody else. And I will give you, I will give you some answers. You may differ with me, obviously, and you are welcome to call, but if you take this seriously, it could transform the way you relate to everybody, literally everybody in your life, and the way in which we perceive our leaders and Our teachers and our clergy and even God. And here it is. There are 2 types of relations in life. This is very simple. There are horizontal and there are vertical. Horizontal are relations between equals, and they are generally relations between you And a friend, or you and your spouse, who ideally should be your best friend.

All—

just about all other relations are vertical. That means up and down, right? Horizontal— if in case you are confused about horizontal and vertical, Just remember that horizontal comes from the word horizon, and so you'll never forget what the, the horizon is. Left, right, right, left, and up, down is vertical. Because of the word horizon, you'll always picture the horizon. The vertical relations are very common in life, and they are any relationship wherein one has a role in a person's— in the other person's life, wherein they have to lead them in some way. A teacher and a student have a vertical relationship. A clergy— a member of the clergy and a member of the congregation should have a vertical relationship. In the last generation, Many have sought horizontal, and I'm not being cute about that in any other term, but I mean horizontal in the words, I'm your equal, and I will give you the worst part of it in a moment. A leader and his constituents is a horizontal relationship. God and us is a horizontal— excuse me, a vertical, I'm sorry, is a vertical A leader and us is vertical. God and us is a vertical relationship. Now, that too has its own fascinating questions, and I will deal with all of these. But here is the rule that I'm talking about, because I said this was about love, and here I am talking about horizontal and vertical. What is the connection? Here is the connection. In horizontal relations, It is a good thing to make wanting to be loved your paramount desire. Your paramount aim, I should say, even better. If your biggest desire or your greatest aim vis-à-vis your spouse is that he, she love you and that you act in such a way as to be lovable, that's wonderful. That's terrific. That's the best. But in any, any vertical relationship, if your primary aim is to be loved, it is disaster. Disaster. No leader can lead, none, if he seeks before all to be loved. And a leader can be a political leader, can be a religious leader, of course, can be an opinion-making leader, can be anything. Wanting to be loved is a very, very deep and primary human urge. It must be resisted except in the case of a spouse and a friend. If you want your friends to love you, that's wonderful. That's great. You want your husband or wife to love you, that's great. It's even in parent-child. If you want your kids to love you, you will not be a good parent. You will not be a good president if you want your country to love you. You will not be a good talk show host if you want your audience to love you, because you will compromise. You will always compromise on what you believe if you want— if you want to be loved by people for whom your task is not to be loved, but to give the truth, but to give— to honestly offer what you can in the way of thought. In the case of what I was just talking about, my own profession, and in communication, in talk show host, in writing, or whatever. A lot of clergymen and clergywomen in the last generation have desired to be loved more than anything else, and they have compromised their religious message as a result. There was a, uh, there was a I think a 19th century rabbi who wrote a lot about ethics, and he had a very good line. He said, any rabbi whose congregation doesn't want to fire him is a failure, and any rabbi whose congregation does fire him is also a failure. It's a great line, isn't it? And that's true for so many things. In other words, they should want to fire you if you are a priest, Rabbi, minister, they should want to fire you because you are— you're not there to be loved. You're there to, to give the message of your religion, which often will offend some people or at least annoy some people. But you also can't do it so, so rigidly and so annoyingly that you get— that you really do end up getting fired. That's the greatness of that, of that phrase. As a parent, You can't look to your children for love. That's why the ideal is to get your love from your spouse and to get respect from your children. They'll love you anyway more if they can respect you. That's true, by the way, even in spousal relations where if they respect you— well, you can respect a spouse and not love one, obviously.

1-800-PRAGER-776.

I want to repeat the theme of this Ultimate Issues Hour. 1-800-PRAGER-776 is the number to call and talk to me. The only time where your primary aim should be, I want to be loved, or your primary aim should be to be loved, is with a spouse or a friend. That's it. In all other relations, all what I call vertical relations, where I have a responsibility toward you, That is not what you should seek to be. It's nice to be liked by people. It's wonderful. I'm not opposed to it. But you can't aim for it. And that is a particularly, particularly important lesson today. Parents want to be loved today more than I think they wanted to be loved 100 years ago. That's not the way parents thought. Will my kids love me? They much, much more thought, will my kids, uh, will my kids listen to me? And there is a big difference between will my kids listen to me and will my kids love me. Anyway, I have a— an old saw: your kids are gonna hate you anyway, so you might as well do the right thing. Then one day they'll love you for it. That's the irony. They'll love you for not raising them. With the intent upon— of being loved all the time. Alrighty, let's go to some of your calls at 877-243-7776. I'll begin them as soon as we return after this break. Too many people seek to be loved. I'll even deal when we come back with, well, doesn't God want to be loved? After all, there is a commandment, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might. So I'll explain that too. If God acted in ways just to make us love him, he would have made a very different world, certainly intervened a lot more. We'll be back in a moment. You're listening to The Dennis Prager Show.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now, back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

Hi everybody, Dennis Prager here. This is the Ultimate Issues Hour. Every week, this hour is devoted to some great issue of life, what I call an ultimate issue. It's 21 minutes past the hour. And this one is, should we make being loved our primary aim? And the answer is only in what are called horizontal relations, relations between peers, friends, and spouses. But nowhere else. A teacher whose primary aim is to be loved by his or her students will fail. A political leader whose primary aim is to be loved by his country will fail, or his state, or his community. And it doesn't even— anywhere. To be loved by your local— Kiwanis Club. If you are the president of the Kiwanis Club, it's the same thing. If you want the members of the club to love you, that's— you won't be a good leader. This is particularly important for 2 groups, I think, to hear. One is parents, many of whom their primary aim— and it's totally understandable. As a parent, I totally relate to that. You want to be loved by your kid. Of course, it's very painful when, when you feel your kid is not— doesn't love you. But you can't do a good parenting job if that is your constant aim. Your constant aim is to raise a good kid, not to be loved by your kid. They'll love you when they become a good kid later. You're investing in it. 1-800-PRAGER-776. The other group is clergy. Too many clergy want to be loved by their congregants, so they, they feed them fluff and talk about love all the time. Your task is to give the standards of your religion over to your people. Let's go to Pasadena, California, and David. Hello, David. Dennis Prager.

Hello.

I wanted to know, you were talking about the different vertical— the vertical relationship, but I didn't hear you talk about Excuse me, I didn't hear you talk about, um, the, uh, relationship from the, let's say, student to the teacher, or the individual to God. Should I feel— should I want to be loved by, by God? Should I want to be loved by my teacher? Should I want to be loved by you, the guy I listen to? So I didn't hear you discuss that relationship. You said that—

That's right. It's an excellent, excellent question. And let's take each one individually. As a general rule, I would answer to you that I would want to be liked, appreciated, respected, but not loved by the person in the higher position of the vertical relationship. I remember in school, I was never particularly fond of the kids who tried to be loved by the teacher.

Hmm.

They were known as goody-goodies or goody-two-shoes, and there was an unreality to their behavior. Do I work to be loved by God? No, I work to be respected by God. Of course, there are people who say God loves you no matter what, and I'm not going to get into— well, I don't know if we did an Ultimate Issue on Issues Hour on unconditional love, but that's— I don't know where that term ever developed. It's not my favorite term, period.

Right. Yeah, that seems to— it seems to make sense. I mean, I guess it comes down to the definition of what love is and how you define love. If you define being loved, if you want to be lovable, uh, that's— I guess, you know, goodness comes, comes into play there. I want to be lovable to you, but that, that's really—

What is your— do you have a job?

Yes, I do.

You have an employer?

Yes, I do.

Well, what is your—

actually, it's me.

It's the same thing.

I'm my own employer.

You're self-employed, so I, I think you should work.

But there are people that I answer to. Actually, you know the person I answer to. I answer to Ronnie Vance. He's my publishing agent.

Oh, how ironic. Yes, that's right. All right, well, all right, well, I don't know how you— what your relationship is, but, uh, if your primary aim is to be loved by him, I'm not sure that you will do your best work.

You want to know—

you want to be appreciated and respected as someone's employee.

That's exactly right.

All right, so sometimes, yeah, sometimes it's a, it's a, you know, it's a gamble. I don't— I, I do it in in lieu of the fact that I might not be loved by him in the moment.

Yes, that's right. That's it. That's why love— love is great, but we need to have— it needs to know its place in our lives. That's the point. And I can speak to— I can speak about this in very personal ways because all of us can speak about it in personal ways. But being a public figure I have yet an additional way to understand that issue. And I am the recipient of a lot of love, and I am very appreciative of it. But I will say, and I hope no one, God forbid, is offended, that's not what I seek. I am touched by it, but it is not what I seek. And that, ironically, I think is why I get a lot of it. And that's the truth for a parent or anyone else. You can't— if you don't seek it, you will probably— and you can't fool people. I mean, you really can't seek it. You can't go into your parenting day or your broadcasting day or your politically— political leadership day with, how am I going to be loved today? You can't. All right, let's go to Dallas, Texas, and Adrian. Hello, Adrian. Dennis Prager. Hi, Dennis.

Hey Dennis, how you doing, buddy?

Okay, thank you.

I think you left out one major group.

Yeah.

And that's politicians.

Oh, I talked about them a lot. I said politicians can't do a good job if they want to be loved.

I missed that, I'm sorry.

That's all right. No, but I was speaking about presidential presidents and political leaders, but it's okay, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, you know, they—

I think they tend these days especially to be— they seem to be running for a popularity contest rather than—

That's right. That's right.

And the most good for the people of the country, you know.

That is exactly right. Well said, Adrian. Yep, he's right. That's not good for them, not good for us, not good for the country. That's exactly right. But it drives me nuts, actually, when I see this behavior, especially this— you know what group I really find it Troubling in clergy. Clergy are the representatives of their religion and its standards to the community. If you want to be loved, that's your primary aim as a, as a priest, minister, or rabbi, then you are setting yourself up as the purpose and not God and the religion. You have become an end in and of itself. Oh, it's a terrible thing, terrible thing. And then you will compromise the religious message. But it's true anywhere, and parents need to know this. That is why I suspect couples who really love each other have less of a need to have their being loved need fulfilled by their children. That's why I suspect it's particularly hard for a lot of single parents, because there's nobody to love them on a horizontal level. So they instead look for this love from their child, and that, that compromises their ability to parent, because we all want to be loved. 1-800-PRAGER-776, the Ultimate Issues Hour on the Dennis Prager Show.

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This is a big hour on the Ultimate Issues Hour. Dennis Prager here, 34 minutes past the hour, past the Ultimate Issues Hour in fact. Yes, I talk about some great issue every week, uh, at this time. And, uh, I often say this, they don't get bigger than this. It doesn't mean it's the biggest. Remember, they don't get bigger means that there are some that get as big. But this is big. Look, we all want to be loved. And that is a good and healthy thing. A person who does not want to be loved by anyone is not healthy. That's so obvious, I feel silly for saying it. The question, my friends, is therefore, since it is such a primal need in just about everyone, from whom is the question.

From whom?

And the ideal by far is a friend.

A friend.

And/or a spouse, period. Not your students, not your congregation, not your political constituents. Did I say children? Not your child. That's really important.

Yes.

Alright, 1-800-PRAGER-776. What happened to our teacher in Plano? There was a guy who called, or a woman, I don't know. Plano, Texas. When he stopped wanting to be loved by his students, became a much better teacher. Just summarizing a call that has gone the way of all flesh. San Francisco, California. Scott. Hi, Scott.

Hey, Dennis, I had to tell you, I had a real treat, me and my stepson and my wife, when we met you out in front of the Jewish Policy Center Forum. We were out in front at the beginning, so thank you for that.

Oh, thank you. That was a, that was a great night in San Francisco.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, at least my 11-year-old got something out of it. So, uh, hey, listen, I'm a psychologist intern and I'm in the Army, and, uh, 2 of my specialties are domestic violence and PTSD. And I would have to say—

Wait, wait, wait, what's PTFB?

PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.

Okay.

And, um, oh, by the way, one of my dreams is to one day write a book and have you interview me on your show.

All right, that's a good— now that's a good dream. Now you notice he didn't say that I dream that you love me, just dream—

No.

That's a fine dream, because you want me to so respect your work that I would have you on. That's a wonderful dream. Okay, go ahead. Yeah.

Well, I would have to say that we probably don't disagree, which I've learned from you over the last 15 years is an important thing, the clarity issue. And it's maybe just be a clarification thing, but if you were to ask most of my domestic violence victims, those on the victim side of it, They would probably say— they probably wouldn't articulate it this way, but they would say that, yes, in my horizontal relationships, I seek love overall.

Right.

And look where it's got them. And I think that the issue then becomes—

No, that's— no, that's— OK, go on.

Healthy love versus not-so-healthy love.

Well, that's true for anything. That's true for anything. You might as well speak about healthy respect and unhealthy respect, because you could respect people solely because they have power, As opposed to that they have earned your respect. There is nothing— I mean, there's healthy water and unhealthy water, there's healthy air and unhealthy air, but if I say that we all need air, it's presumed that I mean healthy air.

Right. And I think that I would presume that, but I'm not sure if the entire audience does. And that's the only reason why I brought it up.

No, and you were right to, because if you're battered by a partner or spouse, And you, you know, you're just constantly seeking the person's love. Well, you are seeking love from someone who doesn't love you. And that, that in and of itself is not good. The horizontal relationship has to be reciprocal.

Right.

All right. So write, write your book and send it to me.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you very much. That's very— that was very sweet and very— and then the point is important. But you see, you see, here's a good example of where people will learn the wrong lesson. If you are mistreated by someone whose love you properly sought, that doesn't mean you stop seeking love. It just means you start seeking love from the right people, from people who could give it. I always forget how basic one has to be. Seriously. And I don't say this contemptuously. Back in a moment. I'm Dennis Prager.

Dennis, Bobby Spiegel calling from Corona, California. L'shana tovah. We've been praying for you, and, uh, I, I just want you to know how much we appreciate you. We're with a little synagogue here in Corona, California called Congregation Beth Shalom. Thank you, Dennis, for your life and philosophy. I gave my life to Jesus years ago, and I've been praying for you earnestly. Keep fighting, keep the faith. I believe God has more for you to do. God bless you, Dennis. Hello, Dennis. No question, just, um, wanted to send lots of love and prayers for you and your strength, your recovery, uh, for, uh, your whole family and yourself. Miss you so very much. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Are you enjoying Timeless Wisdom? We'd love to hear from you. Call 877-243-7776 and leave a review, share your thoughts, or just even an encouraging word for Dennis. Your voicemail might just make it on the show. That's 877-243-7776. That's 877-243-7776. Thanks for listening. And for your support.

All right, I'm resisting the temptation to whistle along. Do you know that's, that's one of those things like if you see somebody scratch, you want to scratch, or yawn, you want to yawn? Isn't that funny? I never thought of whistling like that. Welcome to The Dennis Prager Show, The Ultimate Issues Hour. This hour is on in what relationships should seeking to be loved be our primary aim? The answer is horizontal ones, and that means that they are of equals, friends and spouses. But wherever there is a role to be played in the other person's life, no. A teacher should not seek to be loved by students, a clergyman by congregants, a politician by, by the electorate, or parents by children. Now, what about God? God does not— God so does not act in ways just to make himself loved that there is a commandment to love him. He knows that. He knows he doesn't act in ways that are just created so that he will be loved. You know, in the opening of the Ultimate Issues Hour, we have— what is it? It's not Bruce Almighty. It's which again? Yeah, it's Bruce Almighty. It's Bruce Almighty? And it's a terrific film, by the way. Theologically terrific, funny, well-acted, well-written. It's a terrific film. And the character that gets divine powers because he's so annoyed with God, God says, okay, you be God for a while, decides that he wants to be loved by everybody. And in one scene, which is just magnificent, says yes to everybody's prayers. And so what happens is, for example, they all prayed to win the lottery. So he said yes to everybody and they all end up with about 10 cents. And then there are riots. It's a great scene. If God said yes to everybody and, you know, I want to be loved, I will say yes to everybody's demand. Now, I know it gets a lot more complex. What if God said yes to everybody's health? There wouldn't be riots over that. I fully understand. And that's where the question of theodicy comes in. How do you reconcile a good God with all this unjust suffering? That's a very fair and ultimately not fully answerable question. But God obviously has not made a world in which his primary aim is that we love him. That's all I'm saying. So even there, that is the case. All right? All right. All right. All right. We go all the way out to Los Angeles, California, and Ernie. Hello, Ernie. Dennis Prager.

Yeah, hi.

It occurs to me that one of the ways to prove your point is to show how forbidden the opposite is. For instance, there are child molesters who actually honestly love the children that they molest, but because it's a vertical relationship, it's totally inappropriate.

That's right. That's very good. And in fact, they— although it's completely narcissistic and they're using the child, They, they want the child to love them back.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

The idea of not— in the military, of not fraternizing with people of another rank. It's the same idea.

That's right. That's right.

Of an employer dating an employee. These are all totally recognized as incorrect.

Yeah.

Which just helps prove your point that it should be peer-to-peer relationships.

Yeah. I, I have, I must admit, That I have ambivalence about banning employer-employee dating. Well, that, that, of course— Because adults— yeah, that's right. I was—

we—

you and I are thinking so similarly. I was just going to say adults, meaning mature people, you know, should be allowed to do that. And if, and if the workplace— 2 single people can meet each other, you know, more power to them. But anyway, Your point is entirely well taken, very well taken. Okay, let's go to Sacramento, California, and Chris. Chris, Dennis Prager, hi.

Hi, I am calling because I, I want to make a quick point here. I think out of your desire for clarity, which I respect, and I guess that's the reason I love your show, I want to say that I think one of the problems today that I see around and pushed by some in the media and society in general, advertising I would say, is the fact that love is considered to be just an emotion and not an action and not a responsibility. And I think that's what—

Yes, you are entirely right. It's not— that's not germane specifically to what we're talking about. That does— it's not a criticism of what you're saying, but you're entirely right. If love does not express itself in behavior, then it's pointless. It's worse than pointless. It's false. That's very good. I agree with you. Let's go to a pastor in Minneapolis, Pastor Scott. Hi, Pastor Scott. Dennis Prager.

Hi, Dennis. Thanks for taking my call. I just want to tell you thank you because you're one of the few people out there that are truly addressing issues such as clergy members desiring to be loved and the unhealthy consequences of that. I've seen this firsthand. It's happened to people that I know and care about. And what I was telling your screener is you wind up with at least 2 unhealthy extremes. You have a pastor or a reverend who wants to be loved and develops unhealthy, inappropriate relationships with people in his congregation.

Right, and not even necessarily romantic or sexual, just unhealthy.

Right.

And then of course you touched on the other extreme, which is pastors and preachers have a responsibility to deal with difficult issues that people don't necessarily want to hear about. And if their primary objective is to be loved, they're never going to get to those issues. They're going to water them down.

Yeah.

And they're doing a disservice to their cause.

Yeah.

Here is one of the great ironies of life, is that when you are in a vertical relationship and you do a good job and don't seek to be loved, you will get a lot more love.

Yeah.

It's like desiring to lead and desiring to be loved. Mix like oil and water.

That is, they are mutually exclusive. I am happy that you, a clergyman, thanked me for specifically addressing the clergy issue, because it means to me that I, you know, I'm not whistling Dixie, as they used to say.

That's right.

Yeah, thank you for that. I, in fact, I will go further. I even emphasized parents and clergy were my 2 biggest examples. Because going now to many synagogues and churches is like going to a therapy session. Let's all feel good, I hear your pain, instead of, you know, this is right and this is wrong. Back in a moment.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now, back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

This hour reminds me, in light of my sense that it has struck a chord in many, many, many of you and been helpful, that there is a CD of the best of Ultimate Issues hours. You just call 800-225-8584. 800-225-8584. Or go to DennisPrager.com. And this Ultimate Issues Hour has been about who should seek as their primary aim to be loved, and the answer is only those in a horizontal relation, and that means a relation with a peer. So that would be a friend or a spouse. In all other relations, they're vertical— teacher-student, clergy- Congregant, politician, constituents, parent, child, you must not aim to be loved. You must aim to do the right thing. And the right thing will not get you loved on many occasions. Alrighty, let's see, let me summarize some calls here. And, uh, well, let's, let's, maybe I can take one.

Hi, Dennis.

Huntington Beach, California, and Jason. Hi, Jason. Dennis Prager.

Hey, Dennis. Thanks for taking my call.

Hi. Thank you.

I was wondering, what about a younger sibling?

I mean, should you have a vertical relationship with them?

No, it's an excellent, excellent question. There is a time in siblings' lives where vertical rather than horizontal should reign. Like an older sibling who has responsibility for a younger sibling. You're a surrogate parent.

Right.

As a surrogate parent, you take on both roles. And so I would say you're not a parent, and therefore you can't quite act like one. And— but you're not just a sibling. But that should end fairly soon in life. It should end, I have to imagine, by the late teens at the latest.

So by 17, you should pretty much—

I would think so. When you're 17, you still— you don't want to see your 25-year-old sibling as a surrogate parent. I don't think that that's a good thing.

Right.

But the sooner that you can get into the horizontal relationship and make wanting to be loved by your sibling a major aim, if not the major aim, would be a terrific thing.

Okay.

But because we don't choose siblings, we do choose a spouse, we do choose friends, I don't make the demands of sibling love as central. I just be nice to your sibling. I guess that's pretty much like, you know, wanting to be loved. You really raised a great question. And I hope that this has been beneficial because almost all of us, no, not all, all of us are in vertical relations. In either, you know, in one part or another. Good luck. It's part of life. Thank you. This is the Ultimate Issues Hour.

Tomorrow on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

We have talked about the issue of the man seeing his wife as a sex object, and I am all for it. And I defended it on every ground, from holiness to eroticism. It is a good thing. Imagine, well, as I always say, imagine if he didn't. But that's in the realm of the marriage. What about outside the marriage, just in day-to-day social interaction, strangers on an airplane, at a restaurant, on the street, at a social gathering, at a dinner party, when men look at you, quote unquote, That way? Should you be uncomfortable? Is it a bad thing? Well, let's be, let's be clear. Of course it can be a bad thing, but if a man stares continually at a woman, it's, it's awful. But for that matter, if a man stares at a man continually, it's awful.

I was calling because I tend to disagree with the first couple women that called and said that they enjoy being looked at regardless of what age they were, because I think it's a small percentage. Because there's a, there's a club, and I don't know if it's nationally franchised or not, it's called Curves for Women, and it's, it's an exercise club from what I understand. And from what I've read about it is it's for women only. They don't allow men in these clubs, and it's because I've read that The women do not want to be looked at in that way while they're at college.

Right, yes, that's a very interesting point you raise, Larry, and it's a good one. There are 2 factors, as I understand it, with something like that, and they're quite ironically opposite.

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