Dennis & Julie: How It All Began

Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Hear thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to dennisprager.com.

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On today's episode of Timeless Wisdom, Young woman here. She's going to be a senior at Harvard. And I witnessed truly a metamorphosis, a transformative moment, as I called it last segment, when she debated whether to come on my show and knew that she would have hell to pay among her peers. Do you have evidence to support your saying that Dennis Prager is a bigot?

Well, they would point to things like your opposition of gay marriage or your pro-life, you know, and to them, that is very, very bigoted. I happen to see it differently. I think that you have, I may disagree with you on some of those issues, but I think you have very principled stances on them. But they, here's the thing, if you just have a different policy perspective, they're immediately going to brand that as bigoted.

That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

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Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Hear thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs. And to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to dennisprager.com. Hi everybody, welcome to the Dennis Prager Show. In studio young woman who just completed her 3rd year. They don't say junior year now in some colleges. For some reason it's considered sexist. I can't figure it out. Freshman is clearly sexist. It has the word man in it. I mean, the thought that a young woman would say, I'm a freshman, I mean, that alone is candidate for PTSD. But they somehow— remember what college was it? Penn State? I don't know. Yeah, that was the one they've abolished. Freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior. It's now first year, second year, third year, fourth year. Anyway, she's going to be a senior at Harvard, and her name is Julie Hartman, and she has experienced life in the last couple of years, in the last year in particular, In a way that I think all of us can learn a lot about America from her and through her life. So in a nutshell, she had contacted me after reading some of my books, and I don't know, did you also hear the radio, or is it also mostly from the reading?

PragerU videos mostly, and then your books.

Okay. And I, I I responded, we met. She lives in Southern California, which makes it much easier, obviously. And would you say, how would you characterize your political views 2 years ago?

I really wasn't very engaged politically, but I would call myself liberal because that was just all I knew.

And it's the default position.

Definitely.

Right.

If one doesn't think politically and socially and morally, one is a liberal. That is, that's— it's right, it's the birthright, as it were. And then you saw the videos, read my books, it had a big effect on your thinking, and then I invited you to come on the show. So may I tell the story?

Yes, please do.

So You had second thoughts about appearing on the show. Tell me if I get anything wrong.

Well, just to clarify, you invited me in here to watch your show, and then once I was here— Ah, yes, thank you.

That's important. Good.

Then once I was here, you asked me, are you willing to come on?

I really— yes. You know, it's like, do you see that guillotine? Right. Okay. So this is really important for you, my listeners, to understand. She had zero expectation of coming on the show. I just invited her to sit in. And then I thought, well, why not tell everybody about the metamorphosis that you have undergone philosophically, intellectually? And that was a very, very difficult question for Julie because to appear on my show meant that you were, I guess, coming out of the closet. I mean, not just coming out of the closet, with a megaphone, with an orchestra, and a marching band. And what happened was, it was— this really is etched in my memory. She said— I said, listen, please know in no way is there pressure for you to come on, and I won't think any less of you or Anything. I— but I know what it means if you appear, a student, Harvard student, on the Dennis Prager Show. I, I know what that will, what that will mean. So you thought about it and then said during a break, may I call my mom? And of course, yes. And I don't know what the conversation was like, but you came back in and said, I'll come on the show. And I witnessed— it's not often in life you witness a transformative moment in a person's life. By the way, it's not common that people have transformative moments. Most people don't. That was. So now I would like you to tell me And my listeners, what happened after that?

Well, first of all, that was such a lovely experience, and you were so kind to me. You didn't put pressure on me at all, and I had a lot of fun speaking about it, and it felt very cathartic to finally be open about my beliefs. So that day I go home, I tell some of my supportive friends that I appeared on your show, and they were very happy for me. The next morning I wake up, and your show— I'd put a clip of it on YouTube, which of course, they're allowed to do. I agreed to appear on the show. It goes, you know, on these various sites. And it started circulating around Harvard, around a lot of the people I go to school with, some people who I went to high school with. And there were many people who were supportive, but boy, did I get slammed. I mean, I had so many people coming at me. And interestingly, a lot of them actually didn't take issue with what I said on the radio. Radio because it was pretty benign. I really just said that, you know, I was very influenced by PragerU and your radio show and your books. But they, they took great issue that I was on your show. They thought that by me coming onto this platform, I was supposedly supporting bigotry, white supremacy, you know, all of the typical idiotic liberal party lines. And I said to them, well, first of all, I just reject the notion that Dennis Prager is all of those things and that his platform espouses any of those kinds of views. But second of all, I am only responsible for what comes out of my mouth. I'm not responsible for what comes out of Dennis Prager's mouth or what— I am just responsible for my own words. But these people were just very, very vicious. But another thing I want to say, and I hope this gives some encouragement to people who who might wanna, as you said, come out as conservative themselves. I also had a lot of people in my community reach out to me and say, I would never say this publicly, but I'm really proud of you and I support you and I agree with you, but it's just the cost is too high for me to say that publicly. But I have to say, for about a week or two, it was so bad for me. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep. It was just, I really started tormenting myself because I thought, did I do something wrong? You know, was I wrong to go on the show and say it? And, and with, you know, now we're about a year after it, I really am so much more comfortable in my conservatism. I realized I did nothing wrong. I am doing exactly what a college kid should be doing, exploring her beliefs, you know, seeking out other opinions. And I've just realized how, how wrong and inappropriate it is for them to smear me like that. They have no tolerance for diversity of thought.

I did not know all of that. I had a sense of it. I did not know all of that. I knew you went through the mill. It's sort of coming out of the closet. I'm telling this to all of you because I would say a vast number of you listening are in the closet, fearful of putting out on a Facebook page, uh, I mean, just a column that I wrote, or, or, or Ben Shapiro, or, or Larry Elder. I mean, it's endless. Victor Davis Hanson. And, uh, you're afraid to do that, and you're right to be afraid to do that. And there will be a 2-week auto-da-fé, to use a Spanish Inquisition term. You will be burned for 2 weeks. And then, sort of like— what is it that Navy SEALs go through, that crazy horrible period to test who has the strength to survive horrible conditions? That's a great analogy.

It's so true.

Yes, it is. It is a good analogy. And that's why I make this appeal. A friend of mine in one of the major orchestras of the country— obviously not necessary to say which, but it's one of the top ones— and he finally did it. He finally came out of the closet. He is the happiest man I know right now.

Well, you find that it— I found at least that it was causing me more pain to stay silent about my beliefs than it was to be open about them and to be hated.

I want to get that quote. No, no, really, because I think I want to write my next column Advocating that people come out of the closet.

It is liberating. It really is liberating.

What did you just say? Do you remember what you just said? Because I want to try to commit it to memory.

Well, luckily it's on the radio, so we can go back. But I think what I said was it was causing me more pain.

Ah, that's it. That is so— that is so right.

It is.

It was, it was actually causing me physical pain because I look at so many of these leftists And they are using their freedom to subvert freedom.

Right. Hold it there. Julie Hartman, Harvard student, my guest, 1-800-PRAGER-776. The Dennis Prager Show. This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Now, back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom. Young woman here, she's going to be a senior at Harvard, and I witnessed truly a metamorphosis, a transformative moment, as I called it last segment, when she debated whether to come on my show So she knew, and she didn't know how bad it would be, as it turns out, and I'm learning that now, coming on my show would be known at her school, among peers, etc. So you said off the air that they were 2 of the toughest weeks of your life after you appeared on this show.

Yes.

You want to get her mic on there? It was?

Yes.

Right. Describe it in more detail.

Well, I think at that point, I really was— I was at the beginning of my journey with conservatism. So I found PragerU, I read your books, and I wasn't yet— I have read so much more now. Again, as I said last segment, I'm so much more comfortable in my conservatism. But then I was just kind of at the beginning of it, so I didn't really have the tools to to kind of come back at people in the way that I do now. But people were just so unkind. And interestingly, I— when I saw the YouTube video, a lot of the people commenting on the video were actually really lovely, like a lot of your listeners, which I'm very, very grateful for. You know, they say that people on the internet are so terrible. They actually were really lovely to me. It was the people in my life Interestingly.

Mm-hmm.

It was the people who I went to school with or who had— I had gone to school with or played on a sports, you know, it was those people that gave me the toughest time. And, you know, I'm a good person. I care. I don't wanna hurt other people's feelings. And it was so hard because people were, they weren't just saying that they disagreed with me. They were saying that I was condoning and supporting bigotry and that, you know, And it started to get to me. And I look back and I go, Julie, how did you know? You should have just blocked out the noise. You knew you were not doing anything wrong. But, you know, when that— when you have such a crowd of people telling you that you are doing something so wrong, you— I think as any good person would, you just look inside yourself and you go, okay, did I? But again, it was It really— I had a friend who said to me, Julie, you are doing— it's what I said last segment— you are doing what a college kid is supposed to be doing. Again, you are seeking out new perspectives. You are learning. You are evolving. You're not just catering to the party line or what you've been taught. You're seeking out different perspectives. And that is what pulled me out of it because I thought, you're right. You're totally right. I'm doing what any college kid is supposed to be doing.

Out of curiosity, did you— I'm interested on a personal level and obviously on a larger level. Did you actually confront any of those who attacked you for coming on the show?

Yes, I did. I did.

And did you ask any of them, do you have evidence to support your saying that Dennis Prager is a bigot?

Well, they would point to things like your opposition of gay marriage, or your pro-life, you know, and to them, that is very, very bigoted. I happen to see it differently. I think that you have, I may disagree with you on some of those issues, but I think you have very principled stances on them. But they, here's the thing, if you just have a different policy perspective, they're immediately going to brand that as bigoted. They're not even going to listen to what your reasoning for that is. They're just going to dismiss you. And that's what I really learned. Because sometimes arguing with these people, what I've noticed is there are some people who just don't fundamentally understand conservatives. I fell into that camp before I found you. But then there are other people who blindfold themselves. They don't want to understand why conservatives have these arguments. It's not just that they see us as villains, but they need to see us as villains. It's like intrinsic to their worldview. That's why, you know, you often say that leftism is a religion of sorts to these people. It's true, because they, they confect these mythologies about conservatives. They refuse to see that they can have opinions that are not rooted in bigotry. You know, they see us as the satanic figures, and they see themselves as the messianic figures. It's very bizarre. They will not, they cannot accept that you have certain opinions that are not rooted in bigotry. It's unbelievable. It's really shocking.

Yeah, they— it's so interesting because the left has historically argued that they're nuanced and we're not. I know we're Manichaean and they're not, but it, it's all inverted. They are Manichaean. The world is divided between light and dark. And we're dark. That's why you can't see— there is no left-wing show. If, if there was a show called We Hate America, I would appear on it. It wouldn't— I would be thrilled to appear on a left-wing show, but they don't want to appear on our shows. Why is that? No, I'm serious. Why is that?

I really think— well, they'll say because, you know, they don't even want to give a voice to bigotry. That's their classic response. But what it really is, is they don't want to debate you.

That's right.

They know they don't have the ammo to do it.

They don't have the ammo to do it.

And they don't have truth on their side.

Well, it is one joy to have you on our side.

Thank you.

I have in studio the Harvard student that I interviewed last week, and it got, got a lot of wonderful feedback from it. This young woman was turned around by things that she had read that I had written. Is that fair to say? You want me to give the microphone, Sean? To Julie, and Julie is about to be a senior at Harvard, and she has nicknamed herself the Harvard Heretic. Why did you take that name?

Well, actually, you gave me that name. We were on the phone a few months ago.

Oh, I did? Oh, all right, go on.

Well, no, I mean—

And you like it?

And I love it. I think it's a nice alliteration. It gets the point across.

That's right, it does.

It's funny.

So right now, now that you have come out as conservative— and by the way, if I'd have told you in your freshman year you will be on a national conservative show and telling the world you're conservative, what would you have thought?

This is probably not the answer that you expect. Believe it or not, it wouldn't have been unbelievable to me.

Uh-huh.

No, no, fine. I want to know exactly. I don't know. Go on.

Because I was, I mean, I thought of myself as liberal, but I was always very, again, as I said on your show a few days ago, I wasn't very politically engaged, but I was always very skeptical of the left. And I have some conservative members in my family, and I know they're very smart. I know they're very good people. So it wasn't So out of reach. But I mean, yeah, it would have been a little bit shocking. I mean, it's certainly a cool thing to do.

So you— I guess that's how I was. I was liberal and not left.

Right.

That— and that— so it would have made the transition believable to you. Okay, so you have some theories on your fellow students, whether it be Harvard— really, it doesn't matter what school it is, but But it is important for people to know the H-bomb. By the way, let's just talk about the H-bomb for one second. That was a term given to me and I, when I used to have interns, my first 2 were Harvard students and they told me, is the term still used, H-bomb?

Yeah.

Okay. If you say in a conversation, I'm saying this to the audience, not to Julie. If you say in a conversation, yeah, I'm at Harvard, to peers, it has an impact like nothing else, I think. Is that fair to say? I mean, if you say, you know, I'm at Princeton, some people say, oh, that's interesting. But I'm at Harvard, maybe I'm wrong. I mean, because there's no P-bomb. They don't say a P-bomb for Princeton or a Y-bomb for Yale. They say an H-bomb for Harvard. So what happens?

What happens when I tell other people?

Yes, yeah.

Well, people are very nice about it, and a lot of them, you know, they say, oh wow, that's great. But I also— well, you love talking about this. We were talking about it the other day, and sometimes you get people who, if you come out with it immediately, like if they ask you where you go to school and you immediately say Harvard, they're like, oh, you were just waiting to say that, right? Oh, you were just You know, you wanted to brag. But then if you say like, oh, I go to school back east, and then you have to kind of narrow it down, then they go, oh, you were hiding it. You're, you know, you're so, you know, you're not really— you're pretending to be so humble, but you were just waiting. So you're kind of damned if you do, or you're damned if you don't. But obviously it's a very good problem to have. I'm not complaining about it.

No, no, I understand. You have a theory about anger and your peers. Go ahead.

Well, I've noticed in college, it's, it's been very fascinating to me to see the way that people react to conservatives. And I've noticed that there's just this visceral, fierce reaction to them. They have like a Pavlovian-like response to conservatives. You know, the psychological study where you ring the bell?

Pavlovian. Yeah.

For them, they hear the word conservative and they like start foaming at the mouth. They just, they have the instinctive anger. And I think that a lot of the times, they're sublimating their anger and their rage about other things. And they're taking it out on conservatives because that's kind of the socially acceptable thing to do. I think a lot of the things that they're actually angry about are products of secular humanist environments. I mean, not entirely, it would be too simplistic to say that's the entire reason. But there are just, there are a few features of it that I think are very harmful and fill people with a kind of emptiness that then they direct towards conservatives. One of those, and we've talked about this a lot, Dennis, is how I think my generation has really been robbed of optimism, and that we've been, you know, it's been imparted to us that 10 years away, the world is going to be underwater, we're going to be in the midst of a— You know, destructive climate crisis, it's going to end the world as we know it. People don't want to have kids. I've heard some of my friends say that they're afraid to have children because they don't want them to inherit this terrible world we're living in. You know, white supremacy— look at what Biden just said yesterday that you played on your show. Biden said that white supremacy was more lethal of a threat to America than ISIS or al-Qaeda. How does that fill anyone with optimism? I mean, you— when these leftists talk about the state of America and the state of the world in such draconian terms, that's really scary to young people. It doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about issues, but they are catastrophizing these issues. And I don't think they understand the harm that it does to young people. I think relatedly, young people are very risk-averse. I think that we're— I mean, obviously, we're really afraid to say anything wrong lest we be called a name. I think, you know, we're afraid to write anything or speak or have anything on the internet because we've been told that it will follow us around for the rest of our lives and our lives are going to be ruined if we, you know, are out of step in any kind of way. And I think crucially, the biggest thing I've noticed, and this is something I really learned from you and from your books, Is that there is no reverence for wisdom anymore. We live in a really, really hypercompetitive world where people are very obsessed with climbing the socioeconomic ladder, getting into an elite college, you know, getting— landing an elite job, that something like the Bible, which is filled with wisdom, is like this antiquated old book you just throw out. even down to things like, very few of my contemporaries, I've noticed, have hobbies, or like read for fun, or have these kinds of worldly pursuits and interests. And again, I'm not saying all people, but I've kind of noticed this among my generation. And I think it's because, in a way, we've become psychic amputees. We've eliminated parts of our— personality, parts of our interests, because we're, we're, we're not focusing on anything that doesn't allow us to climb that ladder. And again, I think that's a result of the loss of wisdom. And that, that leaves people feeling really hollow, really purposeless. When there's so much that goes into a resume, there's not very much left in a person. I think all these things It's very hard to pinpoint where they come from, but again, it fills people, as I said, with a sense of purposelessness, and they direct that at conservatives because it's socially acceptable.

That was a brilliant analysis. Dennis Prager here. Julie Hartmann is known as the Harvard Heretic, at least on this show, and I told her to start a website called the Harvard Heretic. Although it'll be interesting What happens when you graduate?

Right, I've thought about that.

So that might be an issue. Hmm, we could always change it to, I don't know what, have to come up with some name. Julie is the rare conservative, almost on any campus today, I used to think it was just the quote-unquote elite campuses that were the most effective brainwashing, but it doesn't matter where you are. I, I read about what teachers are teaching, you know, in rural Arkansas, and, and it's woke stuff. This is, uh, this is a crisis at any, at any college. What is it you want to do eventually?

Well, I want to be you, quite frankly. I'm— I've always wanted to be a talk show host of some kind, and now that I've found conservatism, I— that's kind of what I want to do.

Hmm.

So I'll tell you, do you know my, uh, what I tell young people who say they want to be a talk show host? Oh, you will love this. So they say, so how do I know if I could do it? I said, there's actually a pretty easy test. I want you to go into a room alone and be interesting for 3 hours.

It's hard. It's really hard.

Well, I think you— I, I do truly believe you have the makings of one.

Thank you.

This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

Service can radically change us as God shapes our hearts to look more like His. I'm Kristy Graham, host of the show On the Ground with Samaritan's Purse, and this is what happened in Angie's life, a volunteer I met in Mississippi. And I believe that God is going to use all of us, and if people will just be brave enough to tell our story— and it gets raw, but I'm living proof that God can do anything. Listen to this episode of On the Ground with Samaritan's Purse wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom. My guest is Julie Hartman, and for those of you who don't know, Julie and I have been doing a podcast. How many have we put up now? 36 or something?

Close to 40. 38.

38. That is amazing. 38 consecutive weeks.

And we started it out of my Harvard dorm room when I was a senior.

Beautiful room, if I recall.

On screen it was a beautiful room. You should have seen off screen.

Well, it wasn't beautiful on screen, and it was clearly less beautiful—

Hey, I thought it was beautiful on screen.

No, no, it was a wall. That's all I remember is you and a wall.

Fair enough.

Anyways, a dorm room, who expects it to be beautiful? So it's called it's called Dennis and Julie, and it's it's very different from everything else I've ever done. I've never had a co-host, and it's very different from anything else you can hear. We just talk about life and ourselves a lot. So anyway, it's called Dennis and Julie, and it's easy to find anywhere you you listen to podcasts, and you can view it on. YouTube. But the reason I am having Julie on the Ultimate Issues Hour is that, well, today you inaugurate your podcast, which is called Timeless with Julie Hartman. And it's called Timeless because?

Because I was thinking that the reason why I'm conservative is that I believe that our values are timeless and eternal.

Do you believe the data That approaching half of your generation is depressed?

Not only do I believe it, I see it with my own eyes. In high school, almost the entirety of my class was medicated with— they're either on antidepressants or anti-anxiety medications. And that was the same in college.

Wow.

I did not expect that answer. So, so when I think back to my, my years at your age, I don't remember anybody on meds. Do you remember?

Very rare.

Very rare. You're 10 years younger than me and you don't remember. Now, people might claim— well, they might claim 2 things. One, it wasn't diagnosed in those days.

Right.

Or B, nobody would tell you if they were, whereas there's much less shame today. I, however, I don't believe that those, those are, are real responses. I think that in my age group, at your age, there were, there were many more happy people, or at least not depressed? What's happened in your view? This is why it's an ultimate issue, because obviously I have views and I'll share them, but I want to hear yours first.

I think the answer is that we are spiritually suffocated. We don't have religion in our lives. You know, I was just mentioning that I call my podcast Timeless. We don't have timeless and eternal values in our lives. We don't talk about them. We don't embrace them. Instead, we've really run towards an accomplishment-obsessed culture. A lot of people my age are obsessed with getting into college. They're obsessed with going to a fancy graduate school or getting a good, i.e., fancy-named job. And that's their purpose in life now. And What happens is that leads to a very stale and brittle and desiccating life. When you run away from spirituality and religion and the wisdom that that gives you, and you run towards these materialistic things, I think it leaves you feeling empty.

Okay, I fully agree, as you know, and as my listeners know. So here's an interesting question. What do you think your roommates at Harvard would say if they heard you say this?

In response to the fact that we're spiritually suffocated?

Yes.

They would say that we are not because we have literature. We don't need religion to provide us with wisdom or a sense of purpose in life. A lot of the same values that are espoused in the Bible are espoused in literature and TV and movies. So they would say we have— we have that.

That's what they would say.

Boy, you really caught me off guard here.

Really?

Yeah. I, I assumed the answer you would give is because it's the answer that I, that I thought up is, well, you're just wrong. It has nothing to do— we're depressed because of global warming. We're depressed because of inflation. We're depressed because we're not getting the jobs that we really seek. were depressed in part because of the hookup culture that didn't really work out as we had been promised.

They wouldn't say that though. They would say all those other, but they wouldn't say the hookup culture.

They would not acknowledge, even the girls.

No, they would not acknowledge. The girls would not acknowledge that that contributes to their depression. No, no.

That's fact. They tell it to their therapists.

Perhaps, I don't know. I'm not in those therapy sessions, but they deny that it causes them any kind of problems or angst. But yes, you're right. They would answer that way. They would say, you know, give the laundry list of grievances and say that's why we're depressed. But with regard to the spirituality issue specifically, because I've raised this with people, they get very defensive. They don't accept, yes, we don't have spirituality or religion in our lives. They don't want to accept that we have a, again, stale, brittle, desiccating culture. They'll go, no, of course we're full people. We're interesting people. We, you know, we have a vibrant life. We go to movies, we watch TV shows, we read books. That's how we get our meaning in life. And my response to that is, first of all, the TV shows and the movies and the books that are coming out nowadays have nothing to do with spirituality and religion and wisdom. They're all about the social justice issues. And number two, to the extent that literature and movies and TV shows deal with timeless, eternal values, they are getting those values from religion. That's the thing that drives me crazy. My generation disparages religion and yet, The influence of it are all around us.

Well, certainly that was true. I tell you, though, it's an interesting question. I wish I could— boy, if I could, I would love to have your roommates or any 5 of your— any 3 of your fellow students. By the way, if you were at the University of Montana, I would say the same thing.

Right.

But I— so I'm just saying Harvard because that's where you attended. But I don't think it's— I don't think it's worse. Although that's an interesting question. Is the level of depression at the University of Montana the same as at Harvard? If you had to— if you had to guess, what would you say? I have— I have no answer. I'm curious what you might say.

I would say at Harvard it's more.

Well, okay. That's worth exploring.

Yes.

So, folks, the ultimate issues question: why are so many young Americans depressed, more so than ever recorded in American history. I have a member of this age group, Julie Hartman. Dennis and Julie is now in its 39th week. Every week we do about an hour and a half of remarkably open talk with each other, and she's beginning her own podcast on the Salem Radio Network.

We're doing it live because we have a call-in number, which—

Who's we?

Well, me, but I say we because it takes courage.

I love it. She has really adopted the jargon of a politician.

Well, I actually—

So we decided to run for Senate. Who's we?

Me?

I've actually done that consciously because I think— well, I just did it myself, but I think nowadays people use the word I too much, and I'm really trying to be conscious not to do that. And I think we is appropriate because yes, I'm the one in front of the camera, but as we know, see, there we go.

Yeah.

There's 5 to 8 people in that control booth that are—

Sean is standing and saluting you now. You, you really know how to, how to butter this guy up. Okay. I never say we. I have no idea what I say in that regard, but I will be conscious of it. So I asked you why you believe so many of your contemporaries are depressed, and we both have the same answer. Ultimately, it is the death of the ultimate, if you will.

Yes.

Look, every single poll says that religious people are happier than secular people, every single poll, whoever puts it out. So why would it not hold true? But I think what I said they would say is also true. I just read another thing. 7 out of 10 little kids, you know, like 8 years old, are severely worried about climate change. They won't survive into adulthood. So much the lying, scaring of the left has done to their lives, like it did with regard to lockdowns and masks and so on. And it doesn't matter how much they scare people, people still believe it. So do you think that it plays a role? You have no future. Or as I put it, the left says at college and at high school, you have no future because of global warming. And you have no past that, that is worthy of being proud of. You are in a racist, genocidal country.

I think it does play a role, but I think above all else, what it more so does is it makes the entirety of our lives political. So you go to school and you are just bombarded with all of these leftist party lines about climate change, racism, sexism, homophobia, et cetera. Then you go home and you want a little bit of a reprieve and you turn on the television and your TV show has a woke storyline, or you go to the news and they're peddling the woke storyline at you there. Even, you know, we talk about this on Dennis and Julie. You go to a coffee shop and I see nowadays these people, they have their computers open and the back of their laptops have these computer stickers on them. I voted, just got vaccinated, Roe, Roe, Roe your vote. And Roe is spelled R-O-E. People just, it seems like wherever—

Oh, I didn't know that one.

Yes, I saw it the other day at Starbucks and I—

Roe, Roe, Roe your vote.

I know. Can you believe? But I think the point is we, we can't escape. People my age cannot escape politics wherever we go.

Right.

And again, it goes back to what I was saying about the absence of spirituality and religion. You, you need your life to consist of more than just politics. Where is the room in our lives to talk about, as you just said, the ultimate?

About even to just laugh.

Yes.

I, I, I, you've— I'm sure you've heard me say it, but it, of course, predates you by many years. Late night TV was not political. It was— there was a legend named Johnny Carson. Nobody knew his politics. And he really believed, I have one role, to bring some lightness into people's heavy lives before they go to bed.

Well, that's—

Not anymore. It's let me bring some heavy into their heavy lives. Hi everybody. Why are so many young Americans depressed? The Ultimate Issues Hour question. I have a young American, Julie Hartman. We do the Dennis and Julie podcast each week. It goes as long as an hour and a half many times. It's very, uh, it's a very Beautiful and powerful thing. You should get your— get young people to watch it. I mean, there's a big difference in our ages, and yet it doesn't seem to matter.

And we don't talk about politics very often.

That's right. That's correct.

Apropos of our last segment.

Right. And Julie's beginning today, today, her own podcast. So I asked you, and then we're going to take calls in a moment, But I asked you, and I forgot to go back to it, 2 segments ago when I asked you what percentage of your— you feel, obviously we don't have the data, but you think about half of your fellow students at Harvard were taking medication for depression.

Yes. Okay.

So I asked you—

Probably more.

Probably more. Do you think that the same ratio holds true at, let's say, the University of Montana? And you said no, you don't think so. Why don't you think so?

As Dennis just said, I want to emphasize I don't have any data. This is just my subjective observation.

Right.

I mentioned, I believe in our first segment, that many students nowadays my age are obsessed with getting into college. And I would say I would amend that I don't know about other areas of the country, but especially in affluent coastal cities, that is very true among people my age. And I think if you end up at a school like Harvard, you are— you especially care about the name. You especially care about accomplishments and credentials. It's just a fact. And so the reason why I would say that I think more people at Harvard are depressed than other schools is because in order to get to a school like Harvard, and I know this very well, you have to sacrifice your life and your happiness. From the time that I was young, I was playing sports every single day after school. I was obsessed with getting good grades. I was, you know, on the honor council at my school, which adjudicates honor code violations. I was on the student council. I just did so many activities, and all of my peers at Harvard did the same thing. And one of the things that I realized when I was a freshman, and it really hit me hard, but I'm so glad I had the realization, is that when so much goes into a resume, there's not much left in the person.

I want— you've told me this on a few occasions, so now I will respond about me.

Okay.

I— because we all do that whenever we hear something, we think, oh, how does it apply to myself? What's the That's perfectly normal and appropriate. And so how do I know you're right? I know you're right because I did the absolute opposite.

I know. I'm so happy for you that you did that.

Oh, I believe— I'm not kidding— it was either a gift of God or nature. I could never tell because as much as I believe in God, I don't know how much he intervenes in any given in a person's life, but it was a gift. I knew that that stuff doesn't matter in high school, which coming from a Jewish middle-class home where my brother went to Harvard Medical School was a big leap to say, I don't give a damn what college I, Dennis, go to. So what did I do for 4 years in high school? The opposite of you. I laughed. That's right.

You worked hard, though. You say this, but you worked really—

No, no, no, no.

Oh, I worked hard in college. I did not work— oh, no, I didn't do one homework in high school.

But you learned Russian and—

Oh, yes.

So what? That's not hard work?

It was fun.

He's so funny. He's so funny.

Yeah, so I learned how to conduct orchestras. I went to the New York Philharmonic Library.

Well, you didn't do any hard work.

Well, I did— no. All right, so let me put it to you this way. I did only what I wanted to do. I wanted to learn Russian. I wanted to learn how to conduct symphony orchestras. Look, I was an abnormal human being.

I did only what I didn't want to do.

That's right. Okay, so it was the opposite. That's what I'm saying. So I realized you, you, you marvel and I marvel at my energy. It's the same as a 22-year-old and maybe more. But I really sometimes think the fact that I have no even possibility of burnout is that I did what I wanted in high school. Right.

You're totally right. I even find as I'm preparing to guest host for you or go on my podcast, I approach it from a very academic-y, I must get everything right, I must know every statistic by heart, uh, way of going about it. And I've had to unlearn those things so I don't get burned out.

Okay, this is, this is intense. Now anyway, now you know what happens on Dennis and Julie because we could go on on this subject. We should own our thing. This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

Service can radically change us as God shapes our hearts to look more like His. I'm Kristy Graham, host of the show On the Ground with Samaritan's Purse, and this is what happened in Angie's life, a volunteer I met in Mississippi. And I believe that God is going to use all of us, and if people will just be brave enough to We tell our story, and it gets raw, but I'm living proof that God can do anything. Listen to this episode of On the Ground with Samaritan's Purse wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom. So today is something different, not subject-wise, but personnel-wise. So in the course of The next couple of weeks, the 3rd hour of my show, I will frequently have Julie Hartman on with me. Many of you know her from her own show Timeless and from the Dennis and Julie podcast, which we do every week. And I have to say, is one of the most enjoyable moments of my week. And I might even add, I have an enjoyable week aside from that. So that is a real compliment to how much I enjoy it. I have never co-hosted in 40 years of radio. It's just not my style. And then she walked into my life and it hasn't been the same since. And we, we talk about Everything. That's the beauty, because I love to talk about everything. So, Julie, welcome to the Ultimate Issues Hour, the first co-hosted Ultimate Issues Hour in its history.

Boy, I hope I live up to the hype. No pressure, but I feel so comfortable on the show. I mean, I've got—

No, no, but that is a good— that's a good reaction.

I know. When there is pressure, when Dennis Prager says, I've never had a co-host in 40 years, Right. But I'm here with you.

Yeah, it does.

Your heart skips a beat.

Yes, that's fair enough. So one of my— if I had 10 favorite Ultimate Issues subjects, this would be one of them. It might have been the very first one on the first Ultimate Issues Hour. Are people basically good? And why, why did I decide on this one? A, because it's so significant. And B, because I'm so curious to get someone's take who's in their early 20s and what she thinks her generation would answer if I asked them that question, which I have not. I would love to know that. Let me just say the following. There are few ideas I have as much contempt for as the idea that people are basically good. It is a profoundly stupid idea. There is no basis upon which to believe it. Forget religion. I mean, if you're an atheist, you should— it should be irrelevant to the question. I don't believe people are not basically good because of religion. I believe it because I have common sense. Julie, I opened up the show today with a description of what Japanese did to Filipinos. I did not know this. I knew what they did to Koreans. I knew what they did to Chinese. Most people don't know. The only thing they know is Hiroshima, which drives me crazy because as if America dropped it, you know, for no good reason.

Right.

The Japanese did to Chinese what the Nazi doctors did to Jews in concentration camps. The Japanese rounded up vast numbers of Korean women to gang rape every day. And they— now I learned that they treated Filipinos the way they treated Chinese and the way they treated— with regard to the women, the way they treated the Korean women. And I mention this only because when people read about this, and then go, oh, people are basically good. It does, it drives me crazy. So I am curious, if I, before we met, which is now what, 3 years?

3 years this month.

Is that right?

Mm-hmm.

I sent you the first email. And it's a miracle, it's a miracle, everyone, that Dennis saw it because—

Yeah, I don't see most of my mail. I apologize. Dennis is a busy man today. No, that— everything about us is a miracle. It's 3 years this month?

Mm-hmm. Wow.

That's really something. Has it affected your life at all?

Slightly. Some days.

Some days. Yes, exactly. If it— you know, I'll tell you which days. The ones that end in day.

Yes, exactly. The ones that end in day. It's affected me. I mean, I'll just say this quickly. So obviously it's affected me in, in the professional realm, but it's affected me in the personal realm too. You've transformed the way that I view myself, the way that I view life. I have respect and reverence for things that I never once did, such as great works of art and architecture and literature. Also, you've introduced all these wonderful people into my life. Oh, thank you. For instance, I'm best friends with Robert Florczak, who is a great artist I had on my show to talk about the 5 most important pieces of art. So literally, people think that Dennis has just transformed my life by, you know, in the hours that I show up at Salem to do work. When I go home, the stuff I'm reading, the stuff I'm watching, the stuff I'm consuming, you've had an outsized influence on that too.

I'm glad. I really am. It means a lot to me. So, okay. So 3 years ago, before we met, and I— if somebody would have said to you, Julie, do you think people are basically good? What would you have said?

I would have said no, from my own life experience. As many people who listen to Dennis and Julie know, I have a severely autistic sister who has gone in and out of government group homes, and her caretakers have often tragically been very abusive and negligent to her. So I saw for a lot of my life that people are not basically good. However, you asked a few minutes ago, or you pondered what people in my generation would say. I would speculate that a vast majority would say that people are basically good. And that actually goes back to a point that, that you made where you were saying, how could someone look at what happened during World War II with all of the atrocities committed by the Japanese and the Nazis? and think that people are basically good. Well, that's it right there. My generation has grown up in a really prosperous, peaceful time. We have not lived through a World War I, World War II, or Cold War. We barely even know that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars happened, and we weren't personally affected by those. We haven't experienced something like the Great Depression. Many of us have been— of course, there have been tragedies in our own lives. No human being in the history of human civilization is immune to a parent dying or some tragedy befalling us. But overall, our daily lives have been really good. So we haven't had to encounter the basic fact that people are basically not good.

In a nutshell, now you know why I asked her on. Okay, just to be totally open about this. That was great. That is the point Americans are more likely to believe people are basically good than most of humanity. They're naive because it's been so easy.

It's a luxury to believe that people are basically good, just as it is a luxury to talk about microaggressions. If your biggest problem in the world is that someone leveled a microaggression against you, You are the definition of privilege. And isn't that ironic? Because we hear all about privilege— white privilege, male privilege, hetero privilege. Our attitudes towards life are privileges to have.

That is perfect. Uh, let me explain to people what microaggressions are. First of all, they even— the people who invented the term acknowledge it's micro.

Right.

Because there are— there's so little macro discrimination against Blacks in the United States that they had to go to micro. So, ladies and gentlemen, you should go— this is an important tangent— you should go to the University of California website, type in University of California list of microaggressions, and you will see what they list as examples of severe racism. For example, if you say There is only one race, the human race. That, according to the University of California, is a microaggression. Your point, therefore, is the key point. There's so little discrimination against Blacks in the United States. There's so little racism outside of the left that they have to create. Just— that's why there's so many made-up instances. We'll be back in a moment. Ultimate Issues Hour. I'm on with Julie Hartmann. Take your calls. So when it brought me to my knees, well, I had everything.

So tell me, would you please?

This is the Ultimate Issues Hour, every Tuesday, 3rd hour. To be perfectly opened. I'm experimenting with the idea, with evolving the show, that the 3rd hour each day be with, with Julie Hartman. I think it would enrich it because it gives you another perspective from an extraordinary human being. It's just worked out that way. Anyway, she's on with me on this Ultimate Issues Hour. We're talking about what is, to me, the second most important question. The first is, is there a— is the God of the Bible— because to say, is there a God, is irrelevant— is the God of the Bible real? Is there such a thing? And the second most important question in life Is, are people basically good? Because if you believe people are basically good, it shapes many of the utterly destructive ideas of the world. For example, you blame America for people's problems instead of blaming yourself. But, you know, I had Tim Scott on earlier.

I do know. Yeah, that's fantastic.

But to hear him speak, It was as if he had heard my show, but I have no doubt that he didn't get it from my show, 'cause it would— which I'm happy about. It means that, see, it's widely understood. You have a choice in America for your problems. Do you blame you or do you blame America? And the left blames America and the right blames ourselves. That is the difference in a nutshell. And I've said that all of my life. So we're talking about the naivete of so many in America who have it so good. You said it so well. They just don't know.

They—

it's abstract. Evil is abstract to most Americans.

And for all that individuals in the United States today talk about respecting the plight that other people have. They so superfluously throw around terms like racism and homophobia and misogyny, and it is actually offensive. It is an affront to people who really do experience those things, which are, are, are very stark realities in, in the vast majority of the world. For instance, did you know that half of the countries in— half of Africa's 54 countries criminalize homosexuality, and actually a handful of them criminalize it with the death penalty. If you are found to be gay, and even in some cases if you support organizations or people who are gay, you will be punished with the death penalty. For people who say that the United States is a homophobic country, that is such an egregious affront to the people who have to go through that. Or when people say that the United States is a misogynistic country, can you imagine what women in Iran think of that? Oh, my God. who have to get permission from their husbands to go to school or to work, who need 2 male witnesses in court to corroborate their story if they are accused of rape? Do you—

If they accuse of rape?

Yes. If, if, excuse me. Yes. If they are accusing that someone raped them, they need 2 male witnesses to corroborate their story. Can you imagine what they would say if they knew that women in the United States view the United States as misogynistic?

Look, this misogynistic, racist, homophobic country is the place that most people persecuted for being gay or for whatever their color is or being a woman want to come to.

Mm-hmm.

It's— we live in the world of the lie. It's so overwhelming. You can choke on it. I, I want to get back though to that original one. So you said when I asked you about your generation, obviously you didn't do a scientific test. We all understand that, but it doesn't matter to me. I believe that if I would have asked your, your fellow students when you were in college just over a year ago. Do you believe people are basically good? You and I both believe most—

most—

well, a lot of them are foreign-born. I wonder if the foreign-born and the American-born would have the same answer.

I bet they wouldn't. I actually encountered a lot of foreign-born people at Harvard who were quite conservative. They wouldn't label themselves as conservative because they didn't really understand what that meant in the United States, but by all measures, the we would assess they were, because they don't have the luxury that we have in the United States.

How do people who believe that explain the amount of evil? But I don't think they know the amount of evil. You know, it raises the issue which drives you crazy too. So okay, you went to Harvard, we'll reveal the H-bomb, and But it wouldn't matter. It just happens to be the most prestigious college, but it wouldn't matter if I asked this question there or at Montana State. And I'm not knocking Montana State, I'm just picking a state college that doesn't have the prestige of Harvard. If I asked the students, can you identify the Gulag Archipelago? Do you think that most of your fellow Harvard students could?

No. I didn't know what it was until I encountered you. I didn't know who Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was, who, who wrote the famous essay Live Not by Lies. I didn't know what E Pluribus Unum meant. I had never heard of it.

You need to write an article.

I know I will.

And no, I'll tell you what it is. Well, she will. I didn't even tell her what the article is.

Well, I can guess. She will.

She knows she will.

Hey, I can guess.

Wait, wait, wait. Guess. What do you think I'm thinking? I am curious.

The ignorance of people who are supposedly highly educated.

Yes, that's right.

And yet we are not.

Yes. So, so title. That's right. Something to the effect, What I Didn't Know.

So you were saying a few moments ago, is it that people my age don't know about evil and thus that's why they think that human beings are basically good? That is certainly a component of it. But also, I think the greater reason is that we have consumed a cultural diet which has taught us that we are not responsible for our actions. This is the Rousseauian idea that human beings are born perfect in the state of nature and that it's society that corrupts them. I mean, every— this is the whole, you know, people commit crime because they're in a desperate situation. When all of the cultural influences are telling us that, no wonder we don't think that, that, or we don't acknowledge that people aren't basically good.

You didn't know what Gulag was?

No, I didn't. And I'm very— I'm ashamed.

Well, no, no, no, no, don't be. Harvard should be ashamed. Your high school should be ashamed. Ultimate Issues Hour, 1-800-PRAGER-776. Go to your calls. I'm Dennis Prager with Julie Hartmann.

Words unspoken will be there soon for home.

Ultimate Issues Hour, 3rd hour every Tuesday. Little drives me as crazy as the belief that people are basically good, that human nature is good. The only thing that drives me crazier is when a religious Jew or Christian says it. As if God saying the will of man's heart is evil from his youth doesn't mean a damn thing to them. There was an Orthodox rabbi who said that people are basically good. I got so incensed, I wrote a whole article against that. And then he agreed, to his great credit, to debate me. You could watch the debate. I should put it up, but I don't know why I didn't. You should watch the debate. And when religious Jews and Christians ignore what God himself says in the Bible, you realize— and this, by the way, I do realize— most people's religion is what they want to believe. I should do an Ultimate Issues Hour on that subject. Most people do not believe in their religion. They believe in what they believe and then attach their religion to it. That would be an example. I believe people are basically good, and by golly, I'll prove my religion says that. It's— Anyway, the whole question of how much How much does religion make people better when it should is, is a very real question, but I won't get into that now. All right, let me go to calls. Can you hear calls?

I believe so. Okay, we're gonna test it out.

Yeah, we haven't done this. You may have to wear something in your ear. Okay, let's go to Philadelphia. Nancy in Philadelphia, hello.

Hello, Dennis and Julie.

Uh, nice. That was nice that you added Julie. Thank you.

Of course.

I'm very glad that you're talking about this topic, and you should talk about it periodically. And I guess I should be glad, um, I'm the daughter of a Holocaust survivor. So growing up, I never thought people were basically good. Um, my brilliant father, by the way, For many, many years, who passed away in 2008. He said that, um, 50 years of unrelenting prosperity will be the ruination of this country, and I think he was right.

20 years of what? I missed the word because I, I was, I was distracted for a second. What was it?

He said 50 years of unrelenting prosperity.

Oh yeah, he, he was, he was a wise man. That's correct.

Yes.

That's right. That's the great challenge to wisdom is not poverty, it's affluence. The poor are wiser than the rich. They know, they know what life is about. That is, that's the way it works. So he was a, so he was a Holocaust survivor. Had I asked him, do you think people are basically good? What would he have said?

He probably would have laughed.

Nancy, if I could give out awards for great calls, you'd get one of them. Gracias. Gracias. So Jules doesn't have headphones. We'll have to get you that. We're working this thing through. So her father was a Holocaust survivor, and he's the one who said 50 years of affluence have had a decimating effect on America. And he was right.

Well, there's an ignorance in believing that people are basically good, but there's also an arrogance too. You think, well, I don't need certain moral codes that thousands of years of human history has produced, I'm, I'm good on the inside. I have a good conscience.

That's right.

I can direct myself.

That is exactly right. So it's an interesting question. Do people believe— people who believe that people are basically good, is it because they don't want to acknowledge their own nature, or they're just naive? Because you just offered the, the latter, and it, uh, or, I mean, or the The first, excuse me, the former. That's a very interesting point.

I think it's a cocktail of things with several ingredients, but I don't— I think a lot of people really think that they are good people even if they do bad things.

Oh, oh, that— well, that— I don't know anybody who does bad who thinks they're bad. There wasn't one Nazi who thought that they're doing bad, one communist who thought that they're doing bad. The left in America ruining children's lives and the country and every city. They think they're doing good. We'll be back. Ultimate Issues Hour, Dennis Prager Show.

You can see it in a clear blue sky. You can see it in a woman's eye.

You can hear So, 3rd hour of the show, and I have Julie Hartman on the 3rd hour in the next week or so. Julie and I do a podcast called Dennis and Julie. If you want to introduce people to great ideas, but they— especially a young person, they are afraid if they hear, oh, Dennis Prager's a conservative Send them Dennis and Julie.

Then they'll be afraid. Oh, Julie Hartman's a conservative.

She really blew that little plug, I have to say, in one fell swoop. No, no, it's— it— people love it. You should love it. Dennis and Julie. Anyway, talking about people being basically good, your last point is very important. But I have to tell you, I don't relate to it. It has— if you're arrogant, which is part of what you're saying, right?

Yes.

So you want to believe you're basically good, or human nature is basically good, and therefore I am. Here is the irony: you can be good despite the fact that human nature is not basically good. That's the whole point. Then isn't your achievement all the better? If human nature is basically good and you're good, there's no achievement.

All of this comes back to the killing of God, the death of religious values, because part of this is that people think that they don't have free will, that we are just products of the way that we were raised. That's the Freud approach, or were the, you know, were influenced by the circumstances that befell us. So it's interesting because once you see one death of a religious value, it leads to another death of a religious value, and on and on and on. The death of free will equals the lack of seeing that you are inherently flawed.

Show me where they're connected. Because why? Oh, because if we're basically good, we don't have free will to be bad.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And we're not saying we're basically bad. Then you wouldn't have free will either. We're basically capable of either. That's why I always phrase it, we're not basically good. I never said we're basically evil. If we're basically evil, then you can't blame people for the evil they do. Just as if we're basically good, you can't— you can't praise people for the good they do.

That's a really important point. Yes. A lot of people will reject the idea. They'll go, oh, conservatives think we're basically evil.

No, it's a really important—

it's a really, really— people just think it's words. It's a very important distinction. Yes, not good is not the same thing as evil.

That's right. All right, Rabbi Kraft in Los Angeles. Is this the Rabbi Kraft that I have known nearly all of my life?

That's right, 45 years.

Holy crow. Wow. I knew you from when I was born.

I met you in Jerusalem, actually, before you took the job with Brandeis.

Really?

Yeah. You're wearing shorts and sandals, you know.

That's me.

Remember well.

Shorts and sandals.

Birkenstocks, everyone. Dennis Prager wears Birkenstocks.

Oh, you know, that is not fair for you to speak.

And he drinks almond milk.

Rabbi, we got to teach her. She's not Jewish, but you should teach her about the laws of lush and hurrah.

Anytime, be a pleasure. Send her to my store.

Exactly.

Anyway, Dennis, you know, I don't want to get you upset with me, but, uh, to a certain amount I disagree. And, uh, there's a very important piece of wisdom I learned many years ago from one of my rabbis, and it's a way to focus people in. See, I think the confusion people have is they, they call their evil part good. They think they're good. They're calling the evil part good. What do I mean? I ask people, I say, do you believe I have a soul? I ask people, do you believe? What do you think most people say when I ask them that?

Yes.

They say yes. I say, no, you don't have a soul. You have a body. You are a soul.

Oh, interesting.

The mistake people make is they identify with their bodies and they think that's them, their essence. The truth is, after 120 years, they'll have no bodies. Their soul will go on and live on for eternity. That's the real them. And you know, the sages of 2,000 years ago in Ethics of the Fathers said, "Chaviv Adam shenevar b'tselon." Human beings are dear because they're created in the image of God. Right? This from the sages who lived in the times of the Romans. They saw tremendous barbarism, destructions of the temples. They they knew evil very well, but they still said human beings are dear. Why? Because we're a duality. We have a good inclination. We have a bad inclination. And the problem is—

So where do we differ? We don't differ.

No, but see, it's mistaken because the essence, our essence, our eternal essence of us forever, the human soul is created in the image of God. That's the real us. God in his genius gave us a duality so that we could use it as a foil against ourselves. When we defeat our evil inclination, that's how you become good. And that takes nurturing, that takes effort.

Right.

And that takes education. And that's what it's all about. People are essentially evil or essentially good. The beauty of God's creation is he made a duality out of it.

I agree with every word you said, by the way. So, which I had just said before that—that's why I don't say we're basically evil. I only say we're not not basically good. We have a duality.

Yeah, you have to be careful. I think people basically hear when you say.

I know what they hear, but they well, they didn't go to yeshiva like you and I did and learn to parse words.

One last point is we say in the Shema every day, "בכל לבבך", our hearts. We say with the— do a double letter. You're supposed to serve God with the evil and the good. You're supposed to elevate it, and that's what life is really about.

Tell everybody, I'm gonna give you a free plug because you have the biggest Jewish bookstore in LA. Tell them where it is or what its name is.

The Mitzvah Store. It's on Burbank Boulevard in Los Angeles near La Brea.

So you visit Rabbi Kraft, tell him you heard him on the radio, and then take a picture with him. Take a selfie. You're a good man, my friend. Thank you. You know, Julie, you'll love this. So the Jewish traditional teaching is everyone has a yetzer tov and yetzer rao, a good will and a bad will, which is fine. I agree with that. But the rabbis of the Talmud, they made a brilliant point that they asked, why did God make The bad urge. And then their answer is mind-blowing, because without the bad urge, a man wouldn't get married, wouldn't make a family, wouldn't work hard, wouldn't build a house. And so I remember as a kid learning this and thinking, well, wait, if all of that comes from the bad urge, what the hell does the good urge do?

Also, without a bad urge, how do you know what a good urge is?

There's no such thing then.

That's right. How do you know that light is light if you don't have darkness?

That's right.

That's correct. It's not a defense of evil, of course, but it's defense of the possibility of it. Yes. All right. We return. 1-800-PRAGER-776. Ultimate Issues Hour. Ultimate Issues Hour, 3rd hour Tuesday with Julie Hartman.

Shalom.

Really arrived. This is one of her idiosyncrasies, the, uh, completely non sequitur shalom.

It's how I start and end every D&J, and this is D&J hour.

In a certain way.

In a certain way, yes.

Um, anyway, thank you. 1-800-PRAGER-776. The subject And I'm co-hosting it with Julie. The subject is people being basically good. The key point is you'll get a very different answer in countries that have not been as good as America. That's the irony. Affluence and secularism make a very, very bad brew. But that's, that's the, that's the issue. Okay, let's see here. Uh, Battleground Washington. Is that really a name? Battleground?

Dennis, I can't even tell you how great of a privilege it is to talk to you.

Oh, that's very kind. Thank you.

Thank you very, very much. You have impacted my life. I know you have a very short segment, but I have to, uh, compile on your point. So I have like a substance abuse issue, and, uh, it's, it's, it's my human nature to have it, but I have to fight it all the time.

Are you sober now?

Uh, I have been for a couple days. Um, but it's just, it, it's, uh, it's kind of like, uh, talking on your point, you know, that, uh, you have to fight your nature.

That's right.

It's really hard because our nature is sinful. And so, you know, you have to rely on the Bible.

Well, so let me say this to you. If you conquer this, And, and have a lifetime of sobriety, you will have achieved more than almost any other human ever achieves. That there— I have an inkling as to how staggering an achievement it is. I want you to know that, and I want you to aim for it. My son is sober for— my second son is sober for 7 years. He's truly one of the joys of my life. He told me something that taught me so much about people who get high. They can't imagine enjoying life while sober.

But you can.

But you can. Tomorrow on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Alrighty. Today I want to talk to you about this metaphor for life that I use and that is absolutely helpful to me. And it has to do in part with expectations about life. I assume that life will be filled with obstacles to happiness. I just assume it. It is such a given to me that when those obstacles arise, They don't smack me in my face because I have already assumed they will happen. There are people who think this is a dark way of looking at life, and yet it has produced a very light me. It has been a major source of happiness. When I have confronted very difficult things in my life, I have taken them as an assumption. Well, everybody gets it. And that is the nature of life. Join us tomorrow to hear more on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit DennisPrager.com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles. We want to take just a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast. Go to lifeaudio.com to find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network, including shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. This has been Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit dennisprager.com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles. Looking for ways to stay positive? Brighten your day with the free Story Behind podcast.

Hear weekly short stories that showcase true joy, love, and hope. Listen now at lifeaudio.com or by searching for Story Behind wherever you get your podcasts.