Chaos versus Order

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hi everybody, it's Dennis or Julie.

You varied the opening.

I did. I just decided I want to make sure people listen from the first second. That would be very funny, actually, if we renamed it Dennis or Julie, or Julie or Dennis.

Someone asked me recently, why aren't you first?

Oh, okay, you know why? Age before beauty. Hello, what's the issue?

That's a good one.

Yes, there you have an answer for them. There you go. By the way, that reminds me, it's amazing, isn't it? Because we always ask before, what do we talk about?

And then we have no idea.

No, I— and then we have 8 ideas once we're on the air. So yeah, so listen, this is, this is funny that I said Dennis or Julie. You never heard of the television show, which just predates your birth by at least a quarter of a century. Truth or Consequences?

No.

So try to look this up. I'm sure it's on YouTube. There's got a lot of these old shows. Do you ever— which reminds me of another thing. Do you ever watch old TV shows?

I'm trying to.

Like what?

Well, I read the Epoch Times, as I've often said, and they profile sometimes shows. There's one Frank Sinatra one that I just added to my list.

Wait, a Frank Sinatra special or he's acting?

He's acting.

Yeah, because he was an actor.

You know, I growing up, I watched a show called The Big Valley, which was my mom's favorite show growing up, and she showed it to me. It's so different. It's like getting in a time capsule and going to another America.

Well, that's why you should watch it. Everybody listening to us now should go to quiz shows. It's a very popular genre.

Quiz shows.

Quiz shows.

Okay.

And I'll give you a few examples. You'll— you'll— it— so I haven't watched this in— I, of course, I grew up with it. I know all of it. So Truth or Consequences was— if I— Barb Barker, I believe, was the emcee who lived a very long life, happily, right? And didn't he have a monkey? I think there was a monkey on stage. Who would blow a kazoo or something when somebody got a question right or wrong. I don't remember, but the whole thing was a riot. So if you didn't tell the truth, you didn't get the answer right, you paid the consequence. So it was called Truth or Consequences.

So what's an example of a question?

I don't know. What's the capital of Albania? I don't know. You know, whatever it was. I don't remember exactly, but So when I said Dennis or Julie, I thought, oh, what's the other? Or Truth or Consequences. So I want— this is something though I want to relate. A few years ago I watched, uh, let's see, what was the, uh, I think it was Beat the Clock. Hmm, that's another one you should watch. That's from the '50s where you had to do something by, you you know, beating the clock, doing it faster than the maximum time you were allowed to do it. So there was a program called What's My Line? A person would come on and the panel, as I said, composed of generally celebrities, would ask the person questions and they could only— it was only yes or no questions. And within, I don't know what number, maybe 20, they had to guess the person's profession. Okay, so that was fun and so innocent. I mean, my God, when you think about it, all of it was innocent. This is so beautiful.

They find such varied ways to make life interesting and fun because they didn't have phones, they didn't have—

I know television was burgeoning, but that's a very good point.

Oh yeah, they had to be incredibly creative.

It's a very good point.

Like, I don't think we, we wouldn't really think of those games now.

No, no, you're absolutely right. But the only point I wanted to make about that show was when I watched it a couple of years ago on YouTube, they're smoking cigarettes. Uh, and you— it's inconceivable. It's not possible for you to imagine what life was like, how ubiquitous cigarette smoking was?

Well, I was watching a new Netflix show called Griselda with Sofia Vergara. It's about— what is it about? Who is that? That drug lord in Colombia in the '80s? Pablo Escobar. Pablo Escobar. His, like, girlfriend, whatever. The show's about her. And there's a scene of her on a plane and she's smoking on a plane.

Yeah, that's right.

And, and my roommate and I are watching, we watch shows together. We're watching this. We took a break from the Real Housewives to, to watch this show. Um, and we both literally like at the same time just looked at each other like, can you believe that they're doing that? And I'll give you another thing. I was talking with Dion, uh, who I interviewed on Timeless and has become one of my very close friends. Uh, he is, he's fantastic. And, and we, we talk about God a lot. Um, because he's a devout Catholic and he told me just kind of, as an aside the other day, that when you walked onto an airplane in the '60s or the '70s, they would, they would have Bibles at the front that you could take. Or maybe it was earlier, maybe it was in the '50s, not, and not the '60s and '70s. But he said you used to walk onto a commercial aircraft and there would be Bibles stacked there. And I, and I thought, first of all, wow, that would be seen as weird today. As someone who's read a Bible on an airplane, I can understand people look at you like you're weird.

This you don't know as well. Listen to this. Alaska Airlines, until, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago, which is not that long ago, certainly, meaning till the 21st century, Alaska Airlines, when they would give you your meal— that's also passé. They don't give meals now.

Yes. Well, if they do, it's despicable.

Well, you could buy something, you know, for $5 or whatever it is. They would give you— on the tray would be a verse from the Bible.

You're kidding! You're kidding! On the, on the, um, meal tray?

Yes.

Wow.

And of course some atheist group protested, and they, of course, they caved in.

Here's the thing that I don't understand.

I know, why does it bother you?

Why does it bother you?

Just let it go. Atheist— the— so there's a difference between atheists and atheist organizations. There's a difference between Blacks and Black organizations. There's a difference between women and women's organizations. Organizations overwhelmingly are composed of radical, angry human beings. They should all be driving Ubers, which is a great thing, by the way. My son drove an Uber. Friends of mine. I'm— my point is not to do anything else. That's far more productive, is my point. This is really important. Hold on. No, no, this is so significant. They represent nothing but power-hungry human beings. They are. The ADL supposedly fights antisemitism. They're the premier Jewish organization. They have probably fomented more antisemitism in the last 20 years than they have fought antisemitism in the last 20 years. These organizations, black, female, Jewish, overwhelmingly, there are always exceptions to every generalization, that's the point of a generalization, all they do is harm. The average atheist couldn't care less that Alaska Airlines gave a Bible quote on a piece of— the average atheist doesn't give a damn about saying Merry Christmas. The average Jew doesn't give a damn about people saying Merry Christmas. It's organizations that hate it. And if every— it's funny, if 90% of the organizations of the United States folded tomorrow, we would have a happier country.

Well, they succumb to what is one of the Ten Commandments, which is don't use the Lord's name in vain. Don't speak in the name of the Lord.

That's beautiful.

And you say that it's not saying, you know, goddamn, or it's not saying, oh my God. What they mean is don't speak in the name of God to advance your own agenda that God wouldn't approve of. And that's what they do. And you say this beautifully. You say that a lot of these groups care about their— the group that they're claiming to represent in the same way that communists claim to care about workers. They don't. They speak in the name of those groups to advance their own power. I mean, look at Black Lives Matter, a decrepit, corrupt—

Well, you don't even have to go there. —organization, which is— Why is the NAACP against school choice? Most Blacks are for school choice and they don't give a damn what most Blacks want, right? They give a damn about anger at whites, anger at America, making money, getting, getting on the front page of New York Times. That's what animates all of them. It doesn't matter. NAACP is just one example.

Black Lives Matter is an evil—

well, that's an evil organization.

That's correct.

Which has done nothing but, but ruin the Black community. But how many houses did the leader get?

Yeah, right, and embezzled money. So that's one point I wanted to make, by the way. I was furiously writing stuff down, so forgive me. I like making eye contact, but I wanted to write this down. So I really try to be intellectually consistent, and when I just said, or when I just admonished atheist groups for wanting to remove Bible verses from the airline trays, I asked myself, well, don't I kind of do the same thing in 2024? Let me give you an example. When I was on a plane a few weeks ago, I think it was United, unsurprisingly. Actually, this was a few months ago. It was in June. It was Pride Month. And on the screen in front of me, I took a picture of it. I can show it to you. They had like a Pride quiz. You know, what does the color red represent?

It's not a few months ago. It's half a year. You're right.

A few weeks ago to a few months ago to half a year ago. Don't you ever do that? You're like, recently I was talking with XYZ and it was like 10 years ago. So it was— you're right, it was June. And, and they have these, these quizzes. Who was the first, you know, drag queen to be on the COVID of a magazine? Pictures.

Wait, I'm sorry, this was where? This was on an—

I was on a— you know, I believe it was a United flight and it could have been a Delta flight.

No, no.

On the screen in front of me. Okay, they had a quiz and every screen had this quiz.

Who was the first drag queen?

Yes, you know, who was the first drag queen to be on the COVID of a magazine? What is the color red represent?

Wait a minute, one minute, one minute. Sean would know that. Sean, who was the first drag queen on the COVID of a magazine? Your cousin Ira. Your— wasn't it your cousin Ira?

No, don't look it up. Forgive me, I don't care.

See, wait, do people— the people— if people don't hear—

no, no.

So you have to— what I want my listeners to— our listeners—

yeah, yours. Hey, buddy.

And yours. They're mine. I mean, I corrected myself in a nanosecond. So, you know, 40 years of saying my listeners, right? Does— right. All right. So he didn't object to the fact that I said his cousin was a drag queen. What he mocked was the idea that he would have a cousin named Ira.

Yeah, you know, relatives can have weird—

like your aunt. By the way, is Ira a weird name?

Seriously, watch us have a lovely listener named— is there a— sorry, Ira.

Wait, is there a famous Ira? Think, think There's got to be. I knew Ira's growing up. You didn't, right? I think—

I don't think I've ever met an Ira in my life.

Did you ever hear the name?

Um, sure, I'm sure. Yeah, it doesn't— but let's be intellectually consistent here, okay? Because—

all right, so wait, why aren't—

okay, I lament the atheist groups who—

all right, I so I want to really— this is totally serious comment. I so admire you. You do the most important thing people— one of the most important things people can do. You ask yourself if the shoe were on the other foot. Yes, I, I try to do that all the time.

And I also try to ask, and I have to give credit to Clarence Thomas, who talks about this all the time. He says, let's go down to the principle of things. And I love that word. What is the principle here? And in everything I talk about, that's what I try to get to. So in this discussion, That's, that's what I'm trying to get to. Is there a principle I'm operating under?

I don't think so. You're being annoyed at their putting up on the screen that, first of all, everybody inevitably will see. You don't have to read the card on your tray. I'm sure most people didn't even bother. But let us say it's equal. That's not my point. In any event, Your question presupposes a moral equivalence between thrusting drag queen in front of people and thrusting a biblical quote in front of people, but there's no moral equivalence. The country was founded on more on biblical quotes. There's a biblical quote on the Liberty Bell. I, I'm sure that if the left could, they would remove that and put who was the first drag queen on the Liberty Bell. Well, look at city names.

Providence, the name.

What about all the Salems, all the Zions, right? Of course, of course, all the Bethlehems. I— if it go right. So, uh, how did we get— I want— this was the, uh, road to the Alaska Airlines point.

What they did, uh, oh, I was saying Bibles, cigarettes, and my roommate and I were watching the television show and then there were Bibles.

Anyway, I want to review though. There are so many important points already.

We need to track our tangents.

Well, what is important is to just periodically just say, folks, because when you're bombarded with a lot of messages, you don't remember all of them. You remember the last one or two. So how important it is that organizations rarely represent the group that— right, when you— when the issue— when I mentioned atheists objected, the average atheist couldn't care less. If they— if I flew Air India, which I have, and they gave a little card with a quote from the Bhagavad Gita I would not only not object, I would love it.

That's right. Learn. Yes, it'd be fascinating.

That's the amazing thing to me, that people are— the, the lack of intellectual curiosity alone is mind-boggling.

Well, people would say that I don't have intellectual curiosity because I didn't care to look at the 10 questions of the quiz, right?

Okay, again I return. Bhagavad Gita has a 4,000-year history as the culture of India.

Listen, I agree with you. I'm just really trying to be—

No, and you're fair. That is fair. But it's not a moral equivalent. I mean, you might as well say, uh, if they put, if they put a nude up on, let's say, a naked woman on the, on, on the screen and on your airline, well, is my objection to the naked woman Well, why is that any more noble than the guy's objection to the biblical quote? I mean, the substance of the matter is important in making an answer. It's not, well, we all have objections and that ends the issue. There is— that's why I'm taking a category that neither of us is a Hindu. Yet I would— I would— I would want a card with a Hindu quote on it on Air India.

Or if I were— if I were on a Muslim airline, I would— I would be fine reading a quote from the Quran.

I'd be fascinated to learn. Yes, exactly. Frankly, I'd rather have a quote from— from the Bhagavad Gita on Alaska Airlines than nothing.

Right. It's so true. Yes. And, you know, the question that you just asked or you asked a few minutes ago. It's like, why do you care so much?

Because they want to destroy Judeo-Christian civilization.

It's absolutely true.

Okay, well, here you go. That you have— you've really set me off on— I'm, I'm now going into orbit. I love that. So I'm going to share something very, uh, interesting with you. I'm doing the fifth of my five-volume commentary on, on the Torah, on the first five books of the Bible. And it's the hardest one, most people would say. It's Leviticus. It's very arcane stuff in people's views, a lot about sacrifices, purity and impurity, and so on. So I'm reading the finest thinkers who have ever written on the book, certainly of the modern age. And sure enough, the point I made in the 1980s in my Ultimate Issues newsletter that I sent out to people— it— I feel so vindicated that I came to this conclusion so early in my life. The issue is order and disorder. The left doesn't want order. That the, the line gender is not binary encapsulates chaos. Of course it's binary. You're either a man or a woman. Don't tell me about the 0.001% of people who have ambivalent genitalia, or excuse me, ambivalent, ambiguous genitalia. Dennis Prager here with a man I have come to admire for his work. So when I asked him, what do you do? This is the title he gave: Wealth Architect.

Very simply put, I am a wealth architect that helps my clients accelerate the way they grow your wealth. It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep. The Internal Revenue Code is embedded with a number of things that you can take advantage of. It's what I call playing tax chess. We take the time to play tax chess in your favor. We give our clients unbiased, independent advice across all areas in their financial life because we have no incentive to sell anything.

I was taken enough and impressed enough to have you do my work, and you have in fact saved me a serious amount of money. CharlesDombek.com/Prager. Okay, it, it doesn't answer anything. Anyway, their chromosomes are either male or female. In any event, you're either male or female. It is binary. Why the war against binary? Because that implies order. Most leftists don't know that they are ultimately fighting the divine order idea of the Bible. That is what the battle is really about. Chaos versus order. Yeah, I know you've heard me say this, but now, ironically, that's what Leviticus is about. Hmm. It is about— there is order. Why?

This is a hugely important point. It is everything.

It's everything. Yes. The reason for my hesitance is I don't know if I should start getting into Leviticus right now. That's fine. Well, okay, so I'll just make this point. Why, why were the sacrifices, which were central and literally central, it's the middle of the Torah. The third of the five books. Why did you have to bring an animal without a blemish? Isn't that interesting? And I'm sure you didn't know that. I didn't. Yeah, I don't expect you to know that, but it does seem to people to be odd. What difference does it make? You're killing and eating it anyway. And it's related to another, another law that moderns hate. You could not be a priest in Israel if you, if you had certain physical defects. It was, it was that Moses's or God's or the Bible's way of saying, we, the divine, we want to present the ideal. It is not an insult to a blemished bull. It is not an insult to a person with physical defects. They are just as much created in God's image. But if you have certain physical defects, You were invalidated from the priesthood. The people leading the temple service had to look good. I don't mean handsome. It doesn't say if you're not handsome. But you couldn't have, you know, one eye missing. You couldn't be a dwarf, or whatever the term for that is. I don't know if dwarf is politically correct today. You couldn't have crushed testicles. That was one of the, for whatever reason, which was not uncommon because there were so many people rendered, what's the term, eunuchs in the ancient world. And anyway, the idea of God made a world And we, we want to present the best. This was taken over by the church with the cathedrals. Why is that important? Why was it important to make the most beautiful possible building? You could pray in a barn, and I mean that literally. You can pray in a barn. Jews can, Catholics can, Protestants can, anybody can, right? But there's a difference between a barn and a cathedral. Did you ever go to, um, you know, the, uh, what is it, uh, Saint, um, the Basilica or the— what is it, Saint Peter's in, in, uh, in Vatican, in the Vatican? I am going soon.

You've never been there?

I've never been. Okay, anyone who is not moved Yes.

Is not normal. Well, perhaps. And I appreciate the sentiment of what was in Leviticus. Perhaps they took it too far with, you know, you can't have a physical blemish to be a priest. But I do understand.

Well, it was an extensive blemish. I mean, if you're right.

And also, this was 3,000 years ago. You know, like, let's— people go, oh my God, it's so horrible. It's so bigoted. Let's, let's give 3,000 years ago people a little grace. But I, I understand that, and I totally agree with this idea of wanting to glorify God with beauty. And again, I think the way you dress in church matters. I don't think you have to be— I think it's okay to have a physical blemish and be a priest, for the record. But I never understood, and this is said with profound respect for for Protestants. And as I often say on the show, that I am on a religious journey. I don't quite know who, where I am denominationally, what my religious home is. But, you know, a lot of Protestant churches are very stark and bare. And I also recently learned that in maybe not all, but many Protestant denominations, they don't allow you to have a crucifix in a church or wear a crucifix necklace. You can have a cross but not a crucifix, which is different. A cross is a bare cross. Crucifix is, you know, Christ on it. And I have to say, again, with respect to Protestants, I don't understand that. And this whole idea that it's idolatry with I-D-O-L, not adultery, idolatry, to make an idol of a statue. I don't quite buy that. When I go into a Catholic church, I am moved beyond belief by the beauty. And that doesn't mean that I'm praising the beauty instead of God. It means I'm praising God through the beauty. And I walk in—

why, that's not related to the crucifix and bare cross problem?

Well, I think it sort of is, because I think it's, you know, it's very powerful to look at a crucifix. I think more so powerful than a bare cross. In other words, making, making a holy site more detailed, beautiful. Obviously a crucifix isn't necessarily beautiful. Well, the Protestants have beautiful cathedrals. Well, some do, but—

In England, I mean, you know, Westminster Abbey is—

Well, I think that was Anglican, was considered to be really closely aligned with the Catholic Church, and that's why the Puritans came to our country to rebel away because they thought the Anglicans—

Isn't the York Cathedral I don't think that's Catholic. But anyway, look, the Catholic churches are very bare. On the other hand, it's very interesting. Bach was a Protestant. The greatest— now, what was Handel? I think Handel was Protestant too. Well, that's Handel's Messiah.

I mean, just during the Protestant Reformation, they beheaded statues. They both did great.

Is that right? Yeah, of course.

They both did great. I'm just saying, yes, they beheaded statues. Yes, they did in Catholic churches because they thought that it was idolatrous. I don't understand that.

Well, so I am neutral. Really? I'm neutral because I'm not a Protestant. I'm not a Catholic. But here, so I'll tell you why. So The Protestant will say, and I'm truly in the middle, I have, because I'm the one who mentioned after all, you know, the Vatican as the most sublime experience aesthetically a human could have, right? So the Protestant will say their claim, and I'm not going to, I can't get into it because I don't even, I don't know, I don't know enough and I don't have an emotional investment But they, they will say when I ask them, so what's your problem with Catholicism? This is a very interesting subject. I should, I should have a Protestant and a Catholic dialogue.

Let's revive Religion on the Line.

I've thought about that. I got to tell you the reason I'm not. You'll find it fascinating. But let me just not lose the track here. So they will say we pray We don't pray to an intermediary like Catholics do. We pray straight to God. We don't pray to Mary to be an intercessor, for example, or even to Jesus. It's in Jesus's name that they pray as Protestants, but they pray to the Father.

That isn't that an intermediary by their own definition? They pray in Jesus's name, but no, it's Well, maybe.

You'd have to ask them. But I'm just telling you one of their arguments only for the sake of intellectual interest. Yeah, I have— again, I don't have a side to take here. I'll tell you what, I'll tell you since you raised or I raised this issue. What is distressing in Christian history is the, is the amount of bloodshed between Catholics and Protestants, the religious wars in Europe. They were slaughtering and torturing in, in the, in vast numbers one another over theology, not over land, not over power. Well, it's not over money. You're right. Okay, but they're not— well, the only killing that I remember, at least in in my lifetime, it was the Iraq-Iran War, which took millions of lives, to the best of my knowledge. Iran is Shiite and— Well, there was a sectarian— Well, wait a minute. One minute. Now that I think about it, let me think. Iraq is largely Shiite too. It's also— that is an odd thing. That was Arab/non-Arab, but I don't know if it was Shia/non-Shia. Well, Because, uh, Saddam was neither, I think, wasn't he?

No, he— you asked me this on the show and I said Sunni, but you said he was Alawite. He was not, he was Sunni.

He was Sunni? Yes. Okay, so then Assad in Syria is Alawite, right? So I, I may have— it's funny, my whole, uh, my whole adult life I may have, or at least since that, those wars, it wasn't Really? Well, if Saddam was Sunni, then that was an element in it. He was. So it was Sunni versus Shia. But the majority of Iraqis are Shia.

I think it's a little over 50. I think it's like 60%. Well, that's—

well, that's remarkable, right? That there was so much death. Right. All right. But anyway, to the Protestants and Catholics. So it's a— it's its own subject. But I It's distressing when I, you know, I've made my life's work to teach people the deleterious consequences of the death of God, the death of Judeo-Christian values, the death of the Bible. But when I have to be honest, like you were asking about, you know, the airlines. Surprise, surprise. The Pride quiz, the record of the religious West is a very mixed one.

Well, as you say, the bad parts were universal, the good parts were unique.

Yes, I love being quoted back to myself.

You're like, yes, I did say that.

No, no, that's a very important point. I agree. I wonder though, did, like, I'm thinking of India, so Hinduism has its own moral problems obviously with the untouchables. I mean, the belief that you're born into a caste and you could maltreat You know, the lowest caste, the untouchable. And if you're Brahmin, the highest caste, you had a great life. The moral record of religions is mixed.

Well, yes.

But the moral record of the anti-religious is worse. That's why I always say the left keeps me religious. If the left were decent people and supported decent causes, I don't know if I would be as religious as I am.

Well, look at, well, hmm. Well, look at communism and Nazism. That's right. The two secular evils in the 20th century. The problem is, I think for most of civilization, there were religious people. You know, maybe I'm wrong on this. Right, you're right. So secularism in numbers is kind of new because people were— Right. It was paganism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism.

So all good and all evil done prior to the modern age, let's say the French Enlightenment, was done by religious people. They were the good and they were the bad because everybody, almost everybody was religious. Right. That's very fair.

It's actually, if I do say so myself, interesting observation that secularism is a pretty new thing.

Right. And its moral record stinks. Yeah, that's the irony. But no, I don't think 10 kids at Harvard know that. To take your alma mater, do you know there are two things they— well, they don't know. First of all, they don't know about the Gulag. Is that fair to say that your average classmate at Harvard did not know about Gulag? That's mind-blowing. Just for the record, did not know about the Cultural Revolution and Mao and the Great Reform.

They really don't know anything about it.

They don't. So they don't know. That between Mao and Stalin, you have about 100 million noncombatants slaughtered. Not to mention a billion deprived of all human rights. Okay. So they don't know great evil. They don't know that the great evils were committed by secular, anti-religious regimes. And they don't know all the evils, all the genocides of the 20th century. Real genocide. Now, what Israel is accused of was done by big government.

And mostly secular. I said secular. Right.

That was my second point. Right. Yeah.

But what was This is why we need a tangent tracker. What was the, the point? Oh, you were bringing up— see, we got, we got to trace it back here. Bring up Leviticus. And what was— well, the war before that. Oh, well, you were talking about the, um, beautiful— well, I, I'm actually curious. So you say that you're neutral on the subject of when I was saying, um, that a lot of Protestant denominations don't like having grand churches or crucifixes. And I said that I don't quite understand that. I don't understand how it's idolatrous. And I much prefer—

Did they call the crucifix idolatrous?

I'm not sure about that. And please, please, people, you know, I don't think so. Please correct me. I don't want to be wrong on this, but what I do know is that statues during and after the Protestant Reformation were beheaded.

Oh, statues.

No, no, that's different. Well, but in a lot of Protestant churches, the crucifix is not allowed. The cross is only allowed. And I would—

No, that I know. But I— Yeah, it is interesting that—

You said you're neutral on the subject. Obviously, the religion produces great people, and that's what I care about more than, you know, a crucifix versus a cross in a church. But you said that you're neutral on the subject.

Why? I said I'm neutral on the Protestant-Catholic division. On this subject? No, no, in general. Oh, well, that I understand.

Me too.

So, okay, since you're pushing me and since I never ignore when I'm pushed, I'm ambivalent. I'm not opposed. I'm ambivalent about the crucifix in that I mean, I'm trying to think of an analogy. Um, it's probably a poor analogy, but I'll use it anyway because I'm not speaking theologically or morally or even intellectually. I'm now speaking emotionally. Okay, I admit it, this is an emotional response. And I wouldn't want a synagogue to have a mural of a gas chamber. Well, that's a very, very— I don't think it is different. The suffering of the Jews is to Jews what the suffering of Christ is to Christian, right?

But there was a redemption in the Christian story.

Christ was risen, risen, correct, and died for us.

Okay, and he's the Son of God who, right, perhaps didn't will this but knew that it was happening and it was part of it.

So that's a very— it's a very good, uh, response, but it's not the risen Christ that's on the cross, it's the crucified Christ, right? You, you sort of have to know the end of the story. You do, but you do. All right, but you do. Okay. So I can't answer this. Maybe you can, although you may not be able because you didn't grow up in a particularly religious home. So when the Catholic sees Christ on the cross, including stigmata and including blood often, right?

Well, I, I don't know blood, but stigmata, right? Yeah, you see, you see the nails and Right.

But I— there is Renaissance art with, I believe, with blood. Yeah. So is the first— is the thought, oh, but he rose? This is very interesting. I think that— I don't think that's the first. No, it's not.

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Yeah, we may regret it, but okay, is that better?

Oh, well, it's a little— we've done it on the crucifix. Above the crucified Christ is the INRI, right? The King of Kings. And so when I would see the crucifix, my first thought was, look at how they treated Jesus, the King of Kings. That was always my first thought.

And wait, and what— well, finish the thought. Look at how they treated him, and what is the lesson that that taught you?

That he died for our sins, right?

Okay, okay, exactly. So it's not the risen Christ, it's that he died. That's what I said, right? He, he died for—

in a terrible way, but for a noble thing, right?

Whereas the Jews in the Holocaust had no— yes, that's, that's correct.

Well, they had no choice. They were, they were victims of the greatest—

yes, one of the greatest genocides. So here's an interesting question. I I'm going to ask my Daily Wire panel. Oh yeah, what did Jesus have a choice? Hmm, I, I don't know.

Well, he knew that he was going to be betrayed.

I mean, well, not only, not only knew that he would be betrayed, let, let us say he weren't, he wasn't crucified, then where is the, where is the Christian story? Didn't he have to die? Didn't he have to be killed to save humanity? That's why, by the way, it's of surpassing interest, and to the credit of the New Testament writers, that his statement on the cross, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, God, oh God, why, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me, that they included that is to their credit, which adds to the notion, which is very Christian, that he was fully human and fully, fully divine. So I presume the fully human is saying to his Father in heaven, why did you forsake me? But, but did the human not know why he was crucified? Wasn't he crucified? In order to save humanity? Do you know? Do you have an answer to that?

Can you say it one more time?

Yes. Well, there were two questions, so we'll drop the other one about— it's related, but we don't need to focus on his final comment on the cross to God. Okay. But the, the one before, you said the Jews in the Holocaust had no choice, correct?

And it represents— forgive me for interrupting— it represents pure evil, whereas with Christ it doesn't.

Oh, it's evil what they did to him.

Of course it's evil.

Okay, so, so, so it does represent— it doesn't only represent evil. Okay. Yeah, that's okay, an important addition.

Yes.

So did he have a choice? Could he have said, you know, I'm going to get in trouble saying I'm the Son of God here, I'm bugging the, you know, some of the Jewish authorities and I'm bugging the Roman authorities. You know, I'm going to go back to carpentry. Well, did he have that choice?

He may have had that choice, but he decided not to take it. Again, this is— I have very limited knowledge. I'm exploring myself. I don't claim to be an expert, but my best answer to you is that he probably had a choice, but he chose to be the Son of God, bring his ministry to Earth, set a good example, and face the consequences of doing that, including crucifixion.

So you'll find this of interest. When I spoke even at The Daily Wire with the Jordan Peterson event Exodus series, which has millions of views, I'm happy to say, So I said something, and I remember my colleagues at the table, they were moved. I, you know, I could see in their facial expression. I assume it was, even though it's in Genesis, not Exodus, but I assume it was with regard to Abraham prepared to sacrifice his son Isaac. And I said something to the effect that every Jew who raises a child to be a Jew and not to assimilate is potentially sacrificing his child. That's Dr. Marmor's. Yeah, that's right. So, well, we think very similarly. I'm not saying it. Yeah, no, no, no. I don't even know who said it first. The odds are we both came up with it on our own. And the odds are a lot of people said it before for us, right? Right. I'm not offering this as an original thought. I'm only mentioning that I did mention it and it moved those people. I don't claim that this is— I don't remember if I ever heard it, but I don't claim that it's original. I just, I want to make the point though, it's a very important point, that we— this is important— we read the Isaiah description of a suffering servant as the Jewish people. The Jewish people is God's suffering servant to Jews. It's Christ to Christians. Fine, I never argue theology. I get it and I respect it. But when you say the gas chamber has no redeeming value, whereas the cross does, it's largely but not entirely true. Hmm. So here's a point that I I've never heard another person say. I'm only mentioning it because here is an original thought which may be wild. Because I've thought of the Holocaust, I probably think of the Holocaust every day of my life, even though I lost no relatives. I mean, I learned later that I lost a great uncle, but you never knew him, right? And never knew even about him. So I think of the Jews entering the gas chamber, and I, and I, and I've said to audiences, I think there was only one difference that mattered. It didn't matter if you were male or female, it didn't matter your age, it didn't matter your wealth, nothing mattered. But one thing I think did matter, the one division that I think mattered, was those who thought, I am in this gas chamber because I'm a Jew, and this is the price Jews pay for carrying the burden of God into the world, to the God-haters like the Nazis. And those who thought, what rotten luck. I don't know why the hell I'm in here.

Both are understandable.

Not right. But one is worse than the other. If you think your death has meaning, it is more bearable. When October 7th took place, there was other than revulsion and hatred— yes, legit hatred and anger— the one thing I didn't have was bewilderment. People who hate Jews are evil, and they have been around since the Jews have been around. And these are the enemies of mankind. Jew haters are the scum of the earth. And they never end with Jews, and non-Jews don't know that, and so they think, oh, let's be neutral, which is its own discussion for another time perhaps. But it— so in, in some sense, there was nothing redeeming about the gas chamber. That you're 100% right. But Jewish suffering is not meaningless.

Oh, of course. Of course not. But we're taught— we were talking about this in the context of putting it up in a synagogue. You know, you said with— right. And you're right.

And your answer was, well, no, but there was nothing redeeming.

Well, what I really meant to say, and you cut in with the word only, is that, is that the gas chamber represents pure evil. But where is that?

Where is the crucifixion?

Represents what? Represents a very evil act. But there is a redemptive element. Of course. Right. And it represents something—

So I'm curious, what do you think the Protestant objection is? To the crucifix?

Yeah. Hmm. Well, I don't know the answer.

I feel bad.

Well, my impulse is to say the idolatry thing, but I think that applies to non-Jesus sculptures. I think that applies to like sculptures of Mary, right? Uh, look, this is not a direct answer to your question, but here's something I will acknowledge. I struggle with God, as everyone does, and I'm on— it sounds weird— I'm proud to struggle with God. I'm proud that I don't just, you know, buy it hook, line, and sinker. Uh, I, I hope to get to a place of more sturdy faith, but, but I struggle. And one of the things that I have to say, like It's so weird because when I look at— when I walk into a Catholic church and I see the crucifix, it really moves me. And it has a way of orienting me right to the center of what this is all about, which is that— that's great. It really does. It's like, it's like kind of, you know, you're walking in a— like, it's sort of, sort of like the North Star that the Magi followed to, to When Jesus was born to get them to the stable in Bethlehem. You know, it kind of orients me just right to the root of the issue, which is that this person was, you know, really the main thing for me in Christianity is the story. It's that you, if you are a righteous person, you will be persecuted. If you are a truth teller, you will be persecuted. Look at the Son of God, literally the most perfect person to ever grace God's earth, and he was crucified. But I will also acknowledge that there were times in my life where I thought there's something strange about putting a God on a cross. You know, it's— there's something, I don't know, unsettling, obviously, but perhaps— I don't know how to quite say this, but Perhaps not giving God the dignity that he deserves.

Well, on behalf of the Catholics in that regard. But I— that was a big part of his suffering was the indignity of it.

Well, but also, as I'm saying this, I'm realizing that when I look at a crucifix, I see dignity there. I see him handling suffering with dignity.

Did you look it up? Why Protestants object to the crucifix?

Yeah, yeah. According to the interwebs, uh, the reason Protestants have a cross and not the crucifix is they are more focused, uh, around Jesus's resurrection, and it distinguished them from the Catholics.

Was that heard on the air? Were you on the air with that? Yeah. Okay, so that's interesting. I'm so sorry, I couldn't—

I don't have—

Oh, you didn't hear it? Okay, that's really funny. So the audience heard it, muted me.

I know. Yeah.

That, that Protestants are more, more preoccupied with the resurrection than with the crucifixion.

See, that's— in a way, I'm more preoccupied with the crucifixion than the resurrection because it makes more sense to me.

Because that's what happens to truth tellers. Yeah, no, it, it perfectly made that— that perfectly makes sense. You're right.

And I see it happen on it. I mean, I don't, I don't see a literal crucifixion on a daily basis, but I see the— what the crucifixion represents on a daily basis, you don't always see the— a resurrection.

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Take as far as, as what?

Well, the crucifixion is meaningful to you on a scale of 1 to 10, let's say it's a 9 or a 10. The resurrection is a what?

I find the resurrection difficult to literally believe, and I don't have any problems acknowledging that.

You know, my ex-husband Christians ask me that question. You'll love it if you don't know it. If you don't know it? No. So, you know, I have so many Christians in my life and it's such a rich part of my life. So not infrequently I will be asked whether I believe that Christ was resurrected, and for about 10 years I have answered, I hope so.

Totally. I hope so, right?

You know, and I, I can't understand why any non-Christian would not have the same. Of course.

Of course I hope so. Isn't that great?

Well, you know, you can conquer death. What's better news than that? Mm-hmm.

I, you know, it's hard because as, as you know from the earlier discussion about the airplane stuff, I really, I, I try so hard to be intellectually consistent and I ask myself, why is it more believable to me, like kind of part A as opposed to part B? Why is it more believable to me that the son of God came in human form to live and walk among us and was crucified. But then part B, he was resurrected 3 days later, is not as— is harder for me to understand. Both of them are miraculous. You know, I don't— Yeah, that's why I asked you.

I was curious.

I wish I could give you a better answer. There's something about it to me that I don't— that's hard to believe. Really happened. And that I want to believe it happened.

I may get there. By the way, for everybody listening, one of the reasons this is all interesting— it's inherently interesting, in my opinion, starting with the Alaska Airlines Bible quote cards. It's, it's doubly interesting because we are watching in live What is the word? Not in lifetime, in, uh, real time. In real time, we are watching your struggle as to where you will end up religiously.

Yes. Oh, I think about this. I mean, when I'm 20, 25 years older, I'm gonna look back on these videos. Yeah, I look back, you'll have a diary. I was watching a Dennis and Julie a year ago, and I, I can't remember what it was about, but I was going, wow, I've evolved on that. Or in real time, I was processing that. Yes. But you know what it may be, and I hope so much I'm not offending any Christians, though I have to say it's a credit to Christianity and a credit to Christians that I feel so comfortable expressing these doubts because I've never gotten any scorn. I've gotten people who so desperately want to help me.

Christianity in America has been particularly—

I've never gotten so much as a mean comment. No, no, no.

Being an American Christian is a blessing.

Meanwhile, when I had Robert Spencer on my podcast to talk about Islam. Yeah. Whoo. A lot of bad comments. Anyway, I maybe, maybe it's because I sort of, it seems like a fairy tale story. Maybe there's something about it, like, you know, the hap, the whole like happy ending thing of, oh, well, this, this horrible thing happened, but then he came back. You know, maybe there's something about that that feels too much like a fairy tale, that it, that it wouldn't actually happen. Does that make any sense? What do you think about the— well, look, crucifixion and resurrection.

Okay, so I should, should make it clear, as I have probably 500 times, I never judge faith. I only judge behavior. And the behavior of America's Christians with all their flaws, with the slavery, with what I would call in terms of Jewish history petty but real antisemitism. Jews couldn't live in this area, couldn't join this law firm. But so what? This place has been a blessing to Jews, and it's thanks to America's Christians who were very Judeo. It's not coincidental they took a verse from the Torah for the Liberty Bell. Having said all of that, and who— my nightmare is the end of Christianity in America. It's my nightmare. I just want to make all of that clear. My issue is not a faith issue as much as it is just a— I don't want to say common sense because it implies that people who differ with me aren't using common sense, but to me it's just a common sense issue. First, I don't believe I need a savior. So the whole question of why don't you believe in Christ as your savior is not a question to me. I don't even understand the concept.

Meaning you already have God, why do you need a savior? Well, not only you have God—

well, but Christians have God too, obviously. But my view is that God will judge me based on how I live this life. The— and the idea that one sin renders me hell-bent, hell bent or hell-going. I don't know, there's no basis of that in the Torah, which is, you know, Paul cites, you know, if you just miss one law, you're doomed to hell. I know where he gets it from, but it's a misread. God, God looks foolish. I make you with flawed human nature, then you exercise one flaw and I send you to hell.

Well, is that the Christian belief, that one sin sends you to hell without Christ?

Yes. Well, the thing is, if you don't go to hell without Christ, then, then as Paul says in Romans 3:28, Christ died in vain.

The thing that I don't know—

is that clear?

Um, yes, yes, it is. Okay. The thing that I don't understand, and again, needless to say, I have as much respect for American Christians as you do, and I love the story of Christ. I mean, I've been reading the Gospels lately, and it is beyond moving. So, I really love the story. And I think for reasons we've talked about on Dennis and Julie, it's a more powerful story than a lot of the Old Testament stories. And I'm an Old Testament junkie, but I think it's a very palatable, powerful, central story that I think is very useful for people in a Judeo-Christian faith. However, the thing I don't understand is that God essentially outlined the rules or what he wants of you in the Old Testament. And made it clear that he would judge you accordingly. Why does Jesus need to come in? Well, in other words, why isn't that enough?

Well, that was what I said about— I don't understand why I need a savior when God is a God, a just God, as established by Abraham when he argues over Sodom and Gomorrah. And It is repeatedly stated that God is a God of mercy and justice, so I assume that he will judge me and you and everybody else justly. And look, it— I know you want to say something. No, no, I don't forget what it is. I had a blessing that virtually nobody gets it. I was given for 10 years a weekly 2-hour dialogue.

Oh gosh, that is so cool. Beyond cool.

And, and 2 hours with no commercials, I might add, on ABC Radio in LA for 10 years. I immersed myself in dialogue with Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and after the first 5 years, I opened it up to every, literally every faith on earth. The only faith that didn't show up were Jehovah's Witnesses. They were invited, it just, they didn't send somebody. I'm not blaming them, I'm just, every other group, Buddhists and Hindus and of course, regularly LDS, Latter-day Saints, Mormons, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Shinto, but especially Christians. And I remember realizing something, that the belief that you go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus bothers a lot of people who believe that. It's part of what animates them to want to save people. We don't want you to go to hell. It comes from a good place. But I remember looking at an evangelical Protestant broadcaster. He had a very famous Christian show, and he would be, you know, twice a year he would be the Protestant who came in. There's different ones each week, but some obviously came a few times. And I looked at him. It was a revelation to me. This was in my 30s, and I, I'd never had such an immersion with Christians before. And I looked at him and I said, wow, something to this effect: it bothers you way more than me— than it bothers me that you believe that I am going to hell because you do believe I'm a good guy. Dennis Prager here with a man I have come to admire for his work. So when I asked him, what do you do? This is the title he gave: Wealth Architect.

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I was taken enough and impressed enough to have you do my work, and you have in fact saved me a serious amount of money. CharlesDombek.com/DennisPrager You do know how much work I have done, right? Right. On behalf of God and the Bible, right? Well, he said, that's right.

Catholicism has kind of done away with that.

It has, as is the Second Vatican Council with John Paul II.

Yeah. Look, it's, it's funny because theologically I get Christianity, but theologically I don't get Christianity. Christianity makes God so personal, and that's what I was saying earlier about, I think, in many ways the story of Christianity is more powerful than many of the stories in the Old Testament. I think they're of equal importance, but I think the, the story of God coming to Earth, suffering alongside us, but being with us, healing us, setting an example for us—

it's a very powerful— it's so powerful.

And I went to church recently because I'm, I'm trying, I'm trying to explore, I'm trying, you know, I'll go anywhere to learn, but I'm really trying to advance myself in my faith and It was just, it really felt like home. It felt, you know, God felt so, I think in the Old Testament, God commands a lot of respect and reverence. And that's arguably the most important thing. You need to respect and fear and revere your God. But in the New Testament, God is so personal. And there was, at the end of this church service I went to, the pastor said, all of your doubts, lay them at the cross. All of your fears, lay them at the cross. All your disappointments, lay them at the cross. All your sins. It just, again, it felt very, very, very personal. And I think that's important for people to feel, especially when they're struggling, they're going down a dark road in life. I mean, how many, how many people in Alcoholics Anonymous say Jesus is, is the person that, that got them through it? It feels almost like God is friend is the wrong word, but God is a living person, a living presence who is walking alongside you. That's a very powerful thing. So theologically, making God personal, I love that. However, I don't understand the sins being forgiven part. I really don't. Because before Jesus, isn't it true if you sinned, you could ask for forgiveness? And, you know, at the end of your life when you die, God judges you. How does that change from pre-Jesus to post-Jesus? Isn't God still in the end judging you and can forgive you for your sins? Why did Jesus revolutionize that idea? I don't understand that. And I've asked a lot of people this question and I so appreciate their willingness to help me through it. But I have to say, I've never gotten a coherent response.

Sean, you wanted to, uh, say something or ask something?

And this is not a gotcha for Julie. I just really want to hear how her mind wraps around this. And I think you've said this before, Dennis, that faith requires exactly that— a belief in something that you do— you cannot understand, right? So my question to Julie is, why is it any harder to believe in a resurrection than that there is a God?

Oh, you're back to resurrection. She— she— yeah, which is fine.

I have an answer for the other thing too. It's important to Catholics and Christians that Jesus was here, that God sent his only Son to fulfill the prophecy, that that's how serious the redemption and the resurrection is, the absolvedness of our sins.

Right, but, but she's asking, but why only through belief in the Son are you forgiven?

Why isn't it belief in God that you're forgiven, or just your righteousness?

Well, by the way, belief in God doesn't forgive you either, in my opinion. Your behavior does, right? I believe atheists, a good atheist, can go to heaven. Okay, I do believe that. Judaism believes that. Yeah, Judaism believes that a guy who worshiped the, you know, the 47 gods of Egypt, if he was a good guy, he went to heaven. Not if he beat a Jewish slave, perhaps. That's a separate issue. Or any slave.

Well, let me pose this counter-question, and I—

It's because God so loved the world that he sent his only son. He sent, you know, that's why— Okay, but again, are they hearing him?

I assume. I think that's beautiful, but theologically I don't get that. I think it's very powerful and makes God personal, but the fact that he sent his only son so that we can be redeemed doesn't make sense.

It works beautifully for hundreds of millions of people. That is, you can't doubt that because it makes God personal. Yes, I agree with you. So it's a— that's why I judge what works, right? What is it? Faith without works is dead. But that's related. It's not identical, but You know, a lot of Protestants and a lot of Catholics have trouble with Mormon theology. So my response to them is, yeah, well, but I have trouble with your theology and you have trouble with my theology. So, but what matters to me is what does it produce? Mormonism seems to have produced some really wonderful people, some really beautiful families, right? It— you see, I mean, this is painful to say, but you raised the issue earlier as well. There are many wonderful Muslims. That is a given. Everybody knows that. But the— I especially, my best friend, devout Muslim, my best, best friend who you adore. Adore. That's right. Well, I don't know how devout he is. That's true. Yeah.

Grew up in a very devout house.

Yes. The product— Christianity seems to have produced some bad stuff, but a lot of really good stuff. I don't know what the really good stuff that Islam has produced is. I say it's painful. I wish I did— You mean on a macro scale?

Yes, on a macro scale. Obviously on a micro scale.

Yes, of course. I prefaced it with there are many many wonderful individual Muslims. But there are many wonderful individual everything. There were many wonderful individual pagans, but nobody argued that paganism produced beautiful societies, right? So, you know, this— it's a— look, I had a dialogue, it's on the internet, with a major Muslim spokesman, and the topic was— it was at a university Is Islam a religion of peace? And I said no. And he said yes. He— we then had lunch together. I know he did. He knew— I'm not saying this out of hatred or bigotry, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know that. I don't believe it is a religion of peace.

I want to go back for a moment to what you said about how you used an example of Egyptian something. If he's a good guy, yes, he can be saved.

If he believed in all the gods of Egypt.

So, so let me ask you this question. If an Egyptian pagan— thank you, right? If an Egyptian pagan had 4 wives, right, would you call him a good guy who could go to heaven?

Well, Solomon had 1,000 wives. He's king of Israel.

What I'm trying to get out here is I—

if he treated them well, yes, because this is—

I'm trying to understand the Christian belief that through Jesus you can— you only through Jesus can you go to heaven? And I don't believe in moral relativism. I think that's a problem in our society. What is your truth? This idea of your truth, right?

We all have our own morality. We all have our own morality. Okay, go on. But that's not related. Like, I think— how is that related to this issue?

Because if we're judging people based on their good actions, they may be doing good actions in the society that they're in, if that makes sense.

Yes, of course.

Like, they may have been true for Noah. They may have been bathed in a culture where you do have— you do take concubines, you know, and I judge that to be morally terrible. But I'm trying to be the— it's weird to say the devil's advocate for the Christian perspective— the angel's advocate for the Christian perspective that only through Jesus can you be saved. can you go to heaven. And I. I don't believe in moral relativism. I mean, our society. What is your truth? This idea of your truth? Right. We all have our own morality.

We all have our own moralities. But that's not related. Like, I think. How is that related to this issue? Because if we're judging people based on their good actions, And yet you believe, I think as I do, that the founders of the United States were among the greatest human beings who ever lived.

This is why we do Dennis and Julie. I mean, yeah, absolutely.

Well, we're going to get, we're going to get a lot of response, which is good. This is so just for people's knowledge, I a few times a year I do ask a Jew, ask Christian public dialogues, sometimes called Ask a Jew, Ask a Gentile, with some very, very prominent Christians. And people would find that very interesting. I have a feeling some probably on the internet and might be worth watching. But I don't know how else to judge people or how else God does. In the Torah, the Jew is prohibited from idol worship, but the non-Jew is not prohibited from idol worship. Even though it is the Jew's task to bring the one true God to the world, a decent idol worshiper got more reward than an indecent Jewish monotheist. And I love that about the Torah. That's, that's, uh, one of the reasons I so respect it.

People who don't take this seriously are missing out on such richness.

I'll end on that note because this is the great issue that one of the many, many, many you and I have so deeply in common in our nature is what you really said was How could you not be deep? That was really what your question was, or your statement. We don't get it. When I read that Taylor Swift can affect, uh, uh, what is it, 15% of voters— did you read that? And I thought, I don't— it's hard for me to believe Taylor Swift will come out. And by the way, I don't care if it's my candidate, that Taylor Swift will, will, will be your conscience guide. This is no knock on Taylor Swift. That's not her role, right? I mean, she's totally, I believe, totally free to come out with whatever she wants. I agree. Free speech.

But She's even allowed to urge her followers, her fan base, to vote for whoever she— but I agree with you. The problem is, well, why? Why are so many people following?

And by the way, this is new in America. Pop stars in previous generations did not tell people how to vote.

It's true. Okay. I know we're almost out of time. I promise you this will be fast. We could do a whole Dennis Dennis and Julie episode on this. There is a listener of Dennis and Julie who I have gotten to know, who— he's lovely. He goes to a prestigious American university, and I was texting him and I said, what classes are you taking? And he said, I'm taking one on the Old Testament. I said, wow, that's, that's really great that you're taking it, and it's great that your, your college offers it. I said, could you send me the syllabus? I'd like to look at it. And it's just, you know what, I'm not going to say all of this is bad because the fact that they're even having people read the Bible, I view as a small victory. But we could do a whole Dennis and Julie on this. One of the, one of the, sorry, weeks is called War of the Sexes: Male and Female in Scripture. Even just that War of the Sexes.

It must be so distorted. By the way, I just want to say how— and they say there's something profoundly dishonest in having people who are not religious teach religion. I, I, when I study Christianity, when I study it, I read Christians who believe in it. Yeah, it's okay for me to read others, but I make sure to read a person who believes in it. They're the ones who can explain it to me best. I want to understand why you believe it. To have a, I don't know, whatever school it is, professor who thinks religion is for morons, which is probably what the professor thinks, teach religion is probably worse than having no religion course.

And by the way, I interviewed Robert Spencer, as I just said, on my show, who's this prolific, right, Islamic Muslim writer, but he is not Muslim. And I had him on my show and he, I mean, people think he makes these gratuitous assertions. Everything he says, he reads aloud a Quran verse. But you know what? Some of the comments I got, many of them were angry, said, why aren't you interviewing someone who's Muslim on Islam? And you know what? That is a totally fair critique. It doesn't render my Robert Spencer interview any less valuable, but I'm having someone on my show who Who is, who is Muslim?

Well, the ideal would be, would, would any prominent Muslim get on a stage and have a dialogue with Robert Spencer? Right. Yes. That would be the ideal. I, as a believing Jew, I would welcome a non-Jew who— You've debated atheists. Yes, that's right. Oh, and I welcome it. That's right.

I know. Exactly. I love this episode. I've been telling you stuff that you've done and you've said, I love it. I really do. Okay. I'm just going to quickly read just one sentence of this syllabus. It's explaining what the course is about. The topics of potential relevance include such pressing matters as science and religion, morality and politics, parentheses, example, care for the poor and immigrant, and law and justice, not to mention philosophical problems like the existence of God, the nature of the good life, and the problem of ethics including violence.

So you'll know that the second coming is taking place for Christians and the first for Jews when they have my Bible commentary at that college.

Oh my gosh, they would benefit so much from, from your commentary. We should go over this next time.

All right, tell everybody how to get into the Bible and the environment.

Oh gosh. Yeah, you can email me at julie@julie-hartman.com. You can email Dennis at dennis@dennisprager.com, though It's probably a better bet to email me if you want to get to him. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRHardman. Dennis is @TheDennisPrager on Instagram and @DennisPrager on Twitter. And thank you so much for being with us. I love our Dennis and Julie audience. Most of you.

Bye, everybody.

99%. Shalom.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog. One-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality. Morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.