Dennis & Julie: Blood and Water

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hi everybody, Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman. You can tell who's who, so I won't even say who's which. Which is who? Oh, by the way, you're going to love this because you're now falling in love with languages. So here is how I explain to non-Hebrew-speaking people, which is 99% of humanity, a very funny way of realizing that it can be confusing to learn a foreign language. Are you ready?

Yes.

Who is he? He is she. And me is who?

Explain. Okay, you mean in Hebrew? Oh, okay, I see.

Who is he? He is she. Oh no, gosh, I think we're thinking of learning Hebrew.

You know, I've been thinking about what you said on the last episode. By the way, I, I told Dennis before the show, I've been getting so many emails. I think this is the largest volume of emails in a single week I've ever gotten with D&J, and I get a lot of emails usually, so that's saying something. People loved when I talked to you about the Story of Language book. Remember we were sort of thinking, are we only just going to find this to be interesting? No, the audience loved it. They, they thought it was riveting. And I've also been thinking about what you said during that episode about how it's much more intuitive to say shoe red instead of red shoe. That's so, that's right. That's totally right.

Yes.

I wonder what other elements of our language are not as intuitive. Right.

Well, let me tell you, it was life-changing when I started studying French. See, I started studying Hebrew at the age of 5, so it came naturally. But French was already a foreign language in high school, and I learned it, and I realized there really may not be a right or wrong way to express something. So for example, I like it. And that— this is why I— this is part of the reason I think I think clearly is because of language study. In English it's I like it. In French it's it pleases me. That's not the same thing.

Isn't like one of your favorite words though?

Yeah, one of my 3 favorites. Yes.

Can you remind me why?

Oh, because it's way more important than love. And I go on. Yeah, oh sure. Oh, I haven't done this.

No, I, I— maybe you have, but in a rare way you remember. Oh, I know, in a rare Julie moment I'm forgetting. I, I remember earn, I remember should, and I remembered like, but I don't remember the reason.

Okay, you— there— everybody, just about everybody loves their child. Not everybody likes their child.

That's true.

And by the way, it even may be for a spouse. Well, you know, I love him, but I can't say I really like him. Oh, like goes way further than love. It's, it's different with the pet because there's nothing to like as much as there is to— like, you know, you love your dog. By the way, we're moving on to really many, many. So by the way, I love the fact that you're getting all this mail.

Oh, it's great. I know what you want to talk about, and it's your new dog.

Yeah.

May I first read to you a particularly funny email? So last episode, Sean, if you happen to have it on hand, you can play it. But if not, D&J listeners, just go back to last week's episode, the first like 2 minutes. We played a promo, which is the— what is it, 30-second sort of teaser?

I do a promo for every one of my radio shows.

Yes. And so Dennis Dennis hates doing a promo, honestly. And I understand it's hard because you don't always know what you're going to talk about the next day.

You're tired.

And so sometimes he just like today makes up nonsense, makes up nonsense. Today's promo was sometimes I like Sean McConnell. I'm going to give the reasons why there are some days when I like him and some days when I don't. On the next Dennis Prager Show, he just does crazy ones. So last week He did one on Asian versus African elephants. Sean, do you have it on hand? It's okay. Don't worry. Just go.

Just go back to the last one. This is one of those moments when I don't like him. You see, you've done this only so that I can illustrate.

My mom thinks you truly don't like him. Isn't that funny? Remember?

Is that right?

Yes. My mom one time said, oh, yes, because I picked on him.

Oh my God. Does she understand that men—

She understands it now.

But she— Men insult each other because they love each other.

It's just so true that women cannot— women just can't insult each other. Anyway, my mom goes, Julie, you love Sean so much, why does Dennis insult him all the time? Okay, so shout out to William from Germany. Remember William? He emailed— he's 25 years old. Um, I hope I'm not exposing William, but he wrote this hilarious thing where he was like, I would totally marry you except that I'm gay.

So what?

Yeah, come on, just deal with it. Um, Anyway, he wrote, and he just, he always writes the most thoughtful emails. And by the way, our listeners are so thoughtful. It's a sign of how good this show is. The quality of emails that we get are just astounding. So William writes, last but not least, I know it was a joke, but I'd be thrilled if you or Dennis did a show on the differences between Asian and African elephants. I love elephants, not like them, love them. Oh, apropos of what you were just saying. They're my favorite animals. I already know the differences between them. Here are some of them. Ready? African elephants have larger ears, of course, as Dennis said. Sure, you can't ride on African elephants, though their backs look close to a saddle, while Asian elephants' backs are round. With Asian elephants, only males have tusks, while with African elephants it's both sexes. That's really interesting.

I did not know that.

You know, my next book should be about evolution. Like, how do some species of elephants just have male Males have tusks and then others, it's male and female. It's my next read. Anyone who has recommendations, send them to me. African elephants have a flat forehead while Asian elephants have sort of two humps on their head. Least obvious, African elephants have two fingers on their trunks and Asian elephants only one.

And finally, what does that mean, two fingers?

I don't know. On their trunks. Interesting. Maybe, maybe like nostril. I don't know. And finally, African elephants live in savannas, Asian elephants live in forests.

I rode an Asian elephant. I believe it was— oh, in India. I rode an Asian elephant in India. I don't remember Sue laughing as sustained laughter as this.

I know. Yeah.

So it was very warm. I was wearing shorts. And she was— she wasn't. She was wearing jeans. And we were both on this Asian elephant. Within a minute, I realized this was a bad idea. These elephants have hairs that are essentially barbed wire. These are not human hair, soft, silky. They're, they're sharp and long. Every step the damn elephant made was painful, to say the least, on my thighs. By the end of the trip, my thighs were beet red and I was complaining with every step, and Sue thought it was absolutely hilarious. And oh no, oh no, oh I remember it like yesterday. I've not thought about this in a while.

It's like when Joseph, you said last week, laughed at you when you fell.

Yes, it is. Well, that— Sue's laughter made more sense because I was hyping it up and it was hilarious in its own way. Even I thought it was funny, although I was in pain. I did not understand why Joseph thought my sprained ankle was funny. Sprained ankles There's no light side to that. There was a light side to the elephant. Question. I really, I'm gonna bounce, and you know I want you to give me your honest take. So Otto, the great, wonderful, beloved Otto died 2 weeks ago. And yesterday we got another dog, another English bulldog. His name is Mr. Tubbs, which— oh, good. Sean obviously liked that.

Why is he cracking up?

I know it's a hilarious name. We got that name from the breeder. That's what they had named him. And we thought, that's a great name. Mr. Tubbs. T-U-B-B-Z. Anyway.

Oh, Tubbs.

Tubbs.

Oh, okay.

Zed. As the Prime Minister of New Zealand would say, Zed. So does it make you at all uncomfortable that within 2 weeks we got a new dog?

No, no.

Oh, good. Okay.

I understand what you're saying though. Um, what's it, what's an example? Sometimes I fear that I'm moving on from something sad too quickly. I'm trying, I'm trying to think of an instance.

Um, well, the most obvious instance in, in human life is the— if somebody meets and marries quickly after a divorce of a long marriage.

Yes, that's a great— that's an excellent example. It feels people odd.

Yes. Or, oh no, no, no, I take it back. After the death No, no, no, not divorce. It does. It makes perfect sense. But after the death of someone they presumably loved and they're married 25, 30, 35 years and a year later they're marrying.

Right.

So how do you instinctively react to that?

I'm struggling to find an example, but there are things that have happened in my own life. I mean, thank God, thank God, and I'm knocking wood that I haven't lost any women one close to me. Um, you know, I've lost grandparents, but that's to be expected when they're that age. But anyway, I've had times in my life when something sad happens and I feel that I'm moving on too quickly.

Close to any of the grandparents?

Not really, because they lived across the country.

I didn't think so the way you said it.

Yeah.

Okay, go on.

I mean, I love them very much.

No, no, I understand. Okay.

So, and also, they're— it's not that it makes the loss easier, but I guess maybe it does when they're, when they're older, and it's sort of, it's the way life works.

Well, of course, look, There's no question early death is much worse than late death, but I am very touched by how many people really loved a grandparent and their death was really a source of sadness. It's very touching.

It is very touching.

Okay.

So I wasn't—

I mean, yeah, no, no, I am.

So I under— I have had times in my life where I feel that I'm moving on from something too quickly. With a dog, I think it's okay. With a— with a— like, if a human died and then someone got married immediately after, I would personally find that to be a bit odd. But that's sort of my feeling. But my brain tells me, what are you supposed to do, wear a shroud over your face for 3 years? And, you know, I get into sort of— if I think about it rationally, You have to move on with your life.

I gotta write this down. I'm gonna do this on the male/female. It's really interesting if you were widowed, man or woman, you were widowed and then, uh, pretty rapidly met somebody and got married. So rapid—

this is a really good example of— I have to give credit to you for especially teaching it to me. Yeah, you really You're very mind-based, correct? You can sort of rationally unravel, if you will, your emotions.

Yes.

With— and I've watched you do that.

Yeah.

And I have adopted that. And so even though I emotionally would be a little— think it's a little odd for someone to immediately get married after someone dies, intellectually I can't find a rational reason why that's bad. I can't.

Well, the thinking goes, I assume, well, if you so loved that person, how could you love somebody new so fast? But I, I don't have an answer to this. I've not, I've not experienced this, obviously not personally, but I haven't seen it in someone I know. I'll tell you where it really manifests itself. Is with the children.

Oh yes. See, you know, it's, it's fascinating you say that because if my— again, God forbid, God forbid— if one of my parents died and my other parent quickly remarried, I would be so mad.

Oh, mad.

I would be— see, that's not mad, sad.

Okay, so hurt, right? So this is a really pregnant subject. I am angry at adult children who are angry at a parent for remarrying.

You know what, I totally understand that, but I'm just telling you, yes, that's why I said I love your honesty. I would just— I would be, I would be very mad. I would, I would view it as a betrayal of mine, right, of the other parent.

So give me a rough idea of the minimum weight The minimum weight? What do you mean?

Oh, wait, wait. I— okay, okay. Can I say something really bad?

Really bad.

I don't know if I would ever want my parent— I know, and I hate—

no, no, I love your honesty.

No, I'm being really honest here. I have, you know, I, I sort of obsess sometimes about my parents' deaths because I view it as the worst thing to ever happen in the world. Like, I am terrified of the day that my parents die because I'm so close to them. I adore them. And I have thought, God forbid one of them dies, like, I, I've contemplated this question and I don't know if I would ever want another. I would want them to be happy, of course, but I don't think I could ever be okay with a nun or a priest.

What do you mean, live as a nun or a priest?

I know, and again, this is my—

no, no, no, I, I, it's hard. I, I keep—

but I'm being honest.

Yes, I keep praising your honesty.

So I would not like that other spouse. I really don't think I would like them.

Did you hear Sean?

I know I can't hear him.

It was so stupid what he just—

what did he say?

What if your father passed away and your mother fell in love with a man named Mr. Tubbs?

How is it spelled?

It is truly The question is so stupid that I had to repeat it so that people understand what I undergo on a daily basis.

You know what? Can I make a side note? I mean, of course I can, because it's Dennis and Julie. All we do is tangents and side notes. So Dennis and Sean, before the show, dear viewers, horse around like complete idiots. You guys are always like goofing off.

We horse around, but I think sort of like complete prodigies.

Sure, sure. If you want to view it that way. But you know what, I'm about to pay you a compliment, even though I may have just insulted both of you.

Yes.

I like that. Because sometimes it's frustrating because we have to get started and I'm yelling at them to stop talking about dumb things and get going. But you know what, you're not moody. You're reliably fun. You're reliably goofy. It's fine. It's just, it's lighthearted. And I know I've said this on the show before, but working with women, Could you ever imagine two women horsing around like that? No, you can't. No, maybe they'd be more, you know, start on time.

But well said. I love your honesty. I want to get back to this. This is a— it's a— it's not answerable. So here is a perfect example of why I am mind-centered. Why you— and it might be tougher, a, because you're female and emotions run really powerfully in females, which is their strength and their weakness, just like we have strengths that are weaknesses and vice versa. Anyway, if you really love your parent who was the survivor, you said, I want, I want her or him to be happy. Well, why would they be happy alone the rest of their lives?

You're totally right. You're totally right. And look, you know what's interesting too—

wait, wait, wait, I don't want to leave the earlier point. You can forgive me, I hate interrupting.

It's fine.

It's why is it an insult to the, the the deceased parent. Listen, I expect to precede my wife into the next world, okay? To die before she does, to be blunt. Okay. I love her so much. I want her to be happy. That it— I don't think I'm honored if she never marries. I don't know why that honors me. It doesn't diminish the love she had for me that, that, that she would want to marry and have a home and have a companion the rest of her life, which would be years, many years hopefully. And I'm not speaking nobly, I'm speaking even emotionally. Now, to be honest, to really be honest, I don't want— I hope she doesn't love him more than she loved me. Okay, I'll admit that.

No, it's a—

but, but I— but to be happy with a man, uh, after I leave is my fervent wish for her. Why, why will people say if, let's say, 3 years later she marries him Oh, well, let me tell you, she really— I wonder how much she loved Dennis. Who's going to think that? Or if she never marries, what will they say? Well, you know, after Dennis, no man on earth could be a good husband. Why would I want that to be said?

You're right. And it's proof that, you know, you're very mind-based, and I admire that a lot about you. I rationally, as I said about, you know, couples sort of in the ether before I applied it to my own parents, rationally, there's not a great reason. I'm just coming— I'm just telling you emotionally it would be difficult. That being said, well, first, let me, let me try to explore, and this is me truly just thinking aloud. I don't know if it's going to be coherent, so forgive me. I'm trying to explore why I would have such an issue with that, because I agree with what you said. Why is it, why is it dishonoring the deceased parent to have the other parent remarry? It's a good question. I don't know, maybe it's something psychological, like then that person is really, your parent is really dead once your other parent gets another spouse.

That's interesting.

You know, maybe it's something psychological about holding on and sort of kidding yourself into thinking that there's not a permanence to your loved one's death. Perhaps that's what it is. Maybe it's sort of, again, this is being really blunt. Maybe it sort of gives the impression of like, oh, thank God she's gone, or thank God he's gone. You know, now I'm immediately moving on with someone else because with the immediacy after, maybe could give the impression that the person was seeking something else all along or wanted to move quickly.

I'm going to I'm going to give you a reason that literally just occurred to me. I've never really thought this through except that I, I do get angry with, with callers who tell me they're angry that their parent remarried. I think there's an— maybe there's another factor. This, it means the family died.

Yeah.

I never thought of that till now. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the hurt child. That's an official announcement. That family is gone.

Yes, totally.

Not that dad is gone or mom is gone. The family is. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely.

Did you think of that?

Oh yes, that's, that's sort of what I was thinking of with my first comment, that the permanence of that, that loved one's death, the family unit is, is is just, again, permanently different or gone, to use your words. I think I would want my parent to wait a certain amount of time. Again, I— this is with the acknowledgement I don't have a complete rational reason. It's just a feeling. And you, you will find this to be interesting. I think I would have a hard time if one of my parents remarried. Dating perhaps is okay. I don't know why.

Again, well, don't know why the remarriage— yes, it might be the family issue, because more than an insulted good old dad or good old mom, it's the family.

Because once— let's, you know, once the parent remarries, that's your new dad or your new mom, that's your step-parent. And so it sort of seems more of a replacement, whereas your— if your parent is just dating someone, it's that person that makes them happy. It's not step—

that's it. That's—

insert parent.

This is all new to me and all interesting. I think what you said— so in effect, including if they live together, they're not married but living together.

That would—

would you— would you emotionally— answer me purely emotionally—

I wouldn't like that.

3 years later— I don't know. No, no, no, wait, wait, wait. 3 years later, after— again, God forbid one of your parents dies— the other parent does not remarry, uh, but lives with his or her boyfriend or girlfriend?

I don't know. I don't think I'd like it.

I know.

What—

which would you like less, marriage or living together?

Marriage. Okay, totally marriage.

That's my point. So because that— there's no other Obviously stepparent. It's mom's boyfriend.

Yep.

Or dad's girlfriend. There's a distance whether or not they live together. Yes. Well, that, by the way, which proves my point why the people who were dating all these years and then, oh, what's, what's marriage? It's just a piece of paper. Excuse me, saying this is my girlfriend versus this is my wife ain't a piece of paper.

Totally.

That's a big change-a-roo.

Totally. Also, when people say it's just a piece of paper, I sort of think, okay, then why don't you do it? If it's just a piece of paper, then just then get married.

Did you get that line from me?

I might have, but I don't know.

I don't care whether you did.

I know. I, you know, you know, I would give you credit.

Yeah. No, no, I know that. So I have so said that so many times. I listen, if you came up with it, it's not an issue to me, but I so identify with having said that for so many years. Oh, it's just a piece of paper. Then why the hell don't you sign it?

Well, I'll give you another example. I remember during the Black Lives Matter summer, I remember, obviously I remember so much about that summer because that's when I became conservative and all the light bulbs were going off. That's when the newspapers started capitalizing the B in Black. Remember that? And not the W in white. Maybe they do the W in white now.

They're doing—

I don't feel either. Fascinating. Yeah. So I remember speaking with a friend about how stupid it was. And she said, oh, what does it matter? You know, it's just a capital letter. And my answer was, well, if it doesn't matter, why are they doing it? Yes. Then of course, why not do it my way?

It drives me crazy when people do that.

Clearly it does matter if you're defending it.

Yes. You've made a stance.

Yes.

So it does matter.

Same thing with marriage.

Yes.

But no, this is, this is very, very interesting.

Right. So you would rather they live together, boyfriend and girlfriend, than get married?

Yes.

Yes, because it is still boyfriend and girlfriend.

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Well, mom's only husband was dad, right? And again, as boyfriend, it's not your stepdad.

Yep.

So the same thing holds, but not— well, oh, not the same thing. A, a related thing happens when your parents divorce and then remarry. And it's— look, it's well known it's very hard for a lot of kids to bond with the stepparent. And it's almost— well, I I was going to say it's, it's almost insoluble, but it's interesting because I meet so many people through the radio, for example, and in person. So you would— I wonder if you would be surprised, you, Julie, the number of people who have said to me, well, the truth is I regard my stepdad as my dad. I, I get that a lot.

I'm sure you do. I know, I know people in my own life who view their stepparent that way.

Really?

Yes, because the other parent is so out to lunch.

Yes, that's right. Yes.

And it's a beautiful thing.

No. Oh, that's, that's the ultimate. No, that's, that's the best. But equal, probably equal, is nice guy or nice woman, but you know, it's my— it's this— it's a stepparent, it's not my parent, you know. And also interesting how my, uh, my son— this is— I don't— I think there's no reason to hide this. It's open and, and it's very sweet, actually. So my son has two of his own children and two children, two stepchildren, his wife's. Both he and his wife have had children from before. And the two daughters who live with them half the time call him Daddy, though they have a daddy whom they're quite bonded to.

Oh, that's very—

wow, isn't that interesting? And he always tells people, but they're my daughters. He doesn't say my stepdaughters.

How does the, the real dad, if you will, the biological dad, feel about it?

It is not— and I'm not really an issue for him.

Well, you wrote— maybe you said it to me, or you wrote it in some book that I read. I continue to read and reread your books because they're just so wonderful. You said— oh, I know what it was. Sorry. So I just finished Man's Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl's book. And then I watched the book club episode on PragerU that you did with Michael Knowles about it. And you guys highlighted a passage that Viktor Frankl talks about how love is sort of at the center of everything that you should do. And you become more human the more that you love. Of course, I'm losing my train of thought. Bingo, by the way. Dennis and Julie bingo is when Julie forgets what she's saying. Gosh, what were we just talking about? Oh, oh, yes, yes. So, and you said in this episode, the more, you know, I love when my children get close to another adult because they're loving more people. And by the way, my parents view that with with you, with my relationship with you. They have, you know, I've made it very clear to them, as you know, and everyone knows, you know, you're not a replacement of them, obviously, right? You know, um, even though we're very close. And my parents, to their credit, have never ever thought that. They, they know exactly what our relationship is. And my mom said, has said to me, why would I be threatened or upset by you loving another person or another person loving you? I'm so happy someone loves my child and my child loves someone else. I, I think it's a beautiful thing. I think that what you highlighted in the book club and what my mom has affirmed is great. That being said, if I— not to get too personal— if I were the parent of the daughters and my daughter's called someone else daddy, I might have a hard time with that. Or in my case, no, I understand. I would have a hard time. And it's not— I would be grateful that this— that the— their stepparent loves them and there's a good relationship, But calling that person dad, or again, in my case, mom. I would want that exclusive to me.

Yeah, I understand that. I mean, I don't wanna cause trouble here.

I know, sorry.

No, no, and it may well be to his credit because he has, you know, he's secure in their love for him.

Oh, it's actually greatly to his credit. I'm saying I don't know if I would be strong enough to do it.

Well, so I'll give you an analogy in my own life. So my, my older son, the one who has children, uh, the younger one just got married, doesn't have children yet. God willing, he will. Anyway, so— oh God, I know I'm having a Julie—

bingo!

No, no, this is a really, uh— oh yes, okay.

Yes.

So obviously my son has a mother and father. I'm his father. His, his mother had— he and I and she had David when we were married, obviously. So she is married to another man. She's been with him for like 25 years. And when, uh, when David had his first child, she— we, we discussed, why do you want our grandchild? Obviously we share a grandchild. Well, what do you want the grandchild to call you? I asked David's mom, my ex-wife. And what do I want the child to— the grandchild to call me? So she said, I want him to call me Grandma. So the logical thing is, if you're Grandma, I'm Grandpa, right? Right. But then she said, I would like my man, my husband, to be called Grandpa. And I thought the logical is if she's Grandma, I'm Grandpa. That's the logical. That's the truth. We're the grandparents, as it happens. But then I thought, if it's important for her that her husband be called Grandpa, I'll take another name. I'm calling Harvey, right?

Exactly.

Yeah. And, and I— but I, I'm, I'm really opening up here. I've never really even talked about this to, to my family. So my thought was, if my grandchildren are close to me, my, my name could be the Martian. It doesn't matter. And if they're not close to me, it doesn't matter if I'm grandpa or whatever it is. So what matters is the bond I have with my grandchildren, not my name. So there is an analogy for you.

I'll give you a different— I totally agree with you. And I think as we say, we say, or you say, it's to your credit that you handled that so maturely. And you're right. Why, why start a fight over that?

Yes.

Here's the difference, though. You have multiple grandpas too. You only have one father or one mother. I would want that one title reserved for me. I wouldn't—

I get it. I got— oh, I know. I said it was analogous but not precise, right? I hear what you're saying. Would I feel funny in a divorce where my kid called the other man Daddy? Well, first of all, interest— I think it's worth noting this is, and I think this is, this is relevant. I believe that he is called Abba, which is Hebrew. They're, they're— it's a religious Jewish family and they often do that. So he is not called Daddy, he's called Abba, which is Hebrew for Daddy. So they're not both called Daddy.

Okay, that, that actually Sorry to be judging your family.

No, no, no, you're not judging. You're judging you. Yes, I understand.

That to me would be more acceptable as long as the name isn't identical.

No, the name is not identical. I'm happy that I noted that. Daddy and Daddy would be odd. I agree with you.

So you're a stepparent. You, through your human laboratory, aka your radio show. I should say your radio show, aka your human laboratory. But I think, yeah, actually, Yes. You've, you've met and spoken with a lot of stepparents. What do you think is the norm as far as relationships with stepkids? Because, you know, growing up, I mean, I've never had a stepparent. Um, I, I hesitate to say this. I hope I never will because my parents are happily married. I want them to both be alive and married for a long time. But grow, you know, Cinderella comes to mind, the evil stepmother growing up. I remember hearing story, just fairy tales or, stories that, that paint stepparents as evil. Uh, again, what do you, what do you think the norm is? Do you think that most stepparents—

there is no norm. I, I, that's why I said there are so many who say I'm much closer to my stepdad than to my father. Uh, and, and there, there are those say we never bonded. Uh, there's The chemistry is a factor. Is the kid— is the kid angry? Is a big factor too. If the kid is angry at the divorce, yes, that, you know, by the way, in that regard, and you have not been touched happily by this, I have. My, my son has. Just, I'll be— my sons have. And, and my son again had it in his case.

Bingo again.

You know what it proves? Because this never happens on my radio show. We're so relaxed.

We're so relaxed. Yes.

Yes. It's a very, very odd thing.

Honestly, I think we both sometimes forget we're being filmed because we're so— we're just chit-chatting.

Yes.

This is just us. I've not been touched by this. I said, is it the norm, you know?

Oh yes. So I have said all of my life, because I, I came out to California and at the age of 26 to head this Jewish educational institute where college kids came for a month in July, month in August, lived there. So I got to really get into their lives. A lot of them came from divorced homes. So you'll find this fascinating. And I was not married, so I had no— I didn't come from a divorced home. I had no interaction in my own life with divorce, with divorce. So I had no agenda. And there were a few conclusions I drew because I got to know a lot of these kids well. I would meet with them privately. One, which I hold to this day, It is not the divorce. It is what happens after the divorce that can hurt a kid most. All divorce is painful for a kid unless the kid really wanted the parents to divorce, which happens. But how parents handle it afterwards— if they fight a lot— kids, kids can handle divorce. They can't handle fighting. They hate to see, because they usually love both, and to see the two people you love basically hating each other is horrible for a child. Also, how many parents poison their kid against the other? And women do that more than men. I am as convinced of that as I am that the sun rises in the east. But if either sex does it, it is just wrong. And here's another killer for you. So I really go where evidence leads me. I don't— I may have a predilection to believe something, but you know me, I'm very, very mind-centered. If the evidence says X, it's X. And I remember telling my dear, dear friend Joseph Telushkin at a certain point— and I, I, I was the head of that institute for 7 years, so I went through a lot of kids and college kids, and they're not little kids. And I remember thinking, it blew my mind, out of nowhere I said to him one day, you know, the kids from the divorced homes are a lot more mature. And I don't know if that's true, but I remember thinking that then.

Well, that's your thesis statement or the, the subject, I think on episode 31 minute. I don't know what episode it was, but sometime we've, we've done an episode on is it advantageous to have a happy childhood?

Yes.

In some ways, yes. In some ways, no.

Right.

What you're saying indicates no. Something that I've wondered, and we're really getting honest and into it here, which I love about this show. So I have, I actually, it's, it's interesting. I have a lot of friends who are adopted. I don't even know if you know that. And it's something I didn't even sort of consider until I was talking with someone recently who is adopted, and she was telling me that she, throughout her early childhood and teenage years, had abandonment issues, even though her— she's very close with her adoptive parents. They have a great relationship. She said she went through this sort of grieving process of, why did my biological parents want to give me up? That was fascinating. So once I had that conversation with her, then I started thinking, oh gosh, I actually have a lot of friends who are adopted. And I wanted to talk about it with them if they've gone through that. Then it made me think about children of parents who have divorced. This may be totally in my mind or it could be a very real thing. I'm interested to know what you may think. I would imagine sort of feeling, I don't know how to say this in the right way, biologically split. If you know what I mean, between like, I am the physical union of two people who now hate each other. That must be hard. Like, you know, thinking, and of course, I'm not saying that children of people who have divorced shouldn't have been born. That's not what I'm saying at all here. But I can imagine it's hard being, again, the product of two people who once loved each other and then now are so at odds. Because physically you are, I mean, you are the amount of—

As opposed to what?

As opposed to being the child of parents who are together and you feel sort of like soulfully unified with yourself. Does that make any sense?

Yeah. But what, so what is the point that you're making? That it, why it's tough to be the child of a divorce?

Yes. I mean, of course it's tough to be the child of a divorce because your parents are fighting.

Well, you started with adoption. That's why I'm confused.

Right. Okay. Well, I'm saying you're sort of, um, Your relationship with your parents can inform a lot about your psychological state or your identity. In the case of adoption, some suffer from abandonment issues, even if they have the best relationship with their adopted parents. Why did my birth parents abandon me? I'm saying the analog to that with regard to children of divorced parents may be that they feel sort of like, again, biologically abandoned, not abandoned, but But split, like, I, I don't—

again, well, that's a form of abandonment.

Yes, definitely. Okay, so do you see what I'm saying?

Or no, no, no. Okay, let me address the first part. So because one of my children is adopted, one of my children is biological, right? So I— and you know me, you know, I don't— it doesn't make any difference. It's a non— it's a non-issue to me, uh, and has been from the first day. But you should know this, and this is very rarely noted because people don't like to note, uh, sex differences. Overwhelmingly, it has been my experience that the children, adopted children, who feel abandoned are girls. The ones who go on search for birth parents, far more likely to be a girl than a boy.

Anecdotally, that's true in my own life.

Look, this is based on a lot of experience, of course. Of course, I'm not saying all by any means, but oh, it's way more girls. Uh, oh, I was abandoned, which by the way, as a male or as a human, I don't even understand. Did— what does it mean you were abandoned? That it's not like you, you had lived with them for a bunch of years and they go, ah, we don't want you. They didn't know you. You can't— it's like, how do you take personally— it's like when I say on the radio, this is a fair analogy, I say on the third hour on my Friday shows, which is call in on any subject, I always add, and if I let your call go, don't be insulted. How could you be insulted? I don't even know you. I add that. But there— so how do you, how do you abandon what you never had?

I think I disagree with you on this. I think that because biologically, you know, I mean, biologically, well, you— I think it would be hard. And again, of course I'm speculating. I— this is not from my own personal experience, but I think it would be hard thinking about the fact that I was created in a circumstance where neither one of my parents wanted that to happen. And for 9 months my mother carried me and was so, you know, perhaps upset or regretting the fact that she had— I think, I think that would inspire feelings of abandonment.

Well, I know that is true. I don't even— I know that people will think less of me for saying this. I'm risking that. I don't even understand what you're saying.

Really?

Yes.

Because to me, I don't understand what you're saying. To me, it's so clear.

This is a— since we share values, we're both rational. And somewhat bright, it's clearly the male-female difference.

It is. Because think about it, your, your origin story. I know it both. I get what you're saying because it both doesn't matter.

And so then do you feel that way about surrogate mothers?

Well, it's fascinating you bring that up.

No kidding. I didn't know whether— No, we were going to address this.

Well, again, à la Dennis and Julie, you can bring up anything. I'm there. Nothing. Nothing is off limits.

Okay, so good. So There's someone who carried someone we know for 9 months. Did she abandon you?

No, but she's not my mother. She willingly went into the arrangement. And no, actually quite the opposite. I— the thing, the thing about my origin story, and it's a great credit to my parents, my parents have made that, and especially my mom growing up, such a, such a big part of my life. My mom goes, we wanted you so much. I went through IVF, 2 gestational surrogates failed, and And finally, this, you know, this miracle happened because back in 1999 when I was born, it seems it was just 23 years ago, but there were only 2,000 babies in the entirety of the country that were born from surrogates. I happened to be one of them. And my mom talks about, you were wanted so much that we went through all of this pain and, you know, right.

But a woman, we carried you for 9 months.

But she's not my— she willingly entered the agreement.

So wait, so you, you acknowledge You're— it's ironic, incredible that it's your experience. Someone carried you for 9 months. Yes, right. But okay, she's not my mother. Okay, so what?

Well, that matters a lot.

Wait, wait, what? Okay, what?

How could she abandon me? She never— she— I was never hers in the first place. I'm not her child, right?

So, okay, so the carrying doesn't matter. All right. Is that— was that— are we acknowledging that?

No, we're not.

Because most women don't think that way. They think carrying is bonding.

Carrying matters to me if it's your biological mother. This woman was not my biological mother. She—

right.

She, through the miracle of science, she was basically— they say like she was the oven that baked me, you know, like the parent. My parents put together the ingredients. Put the ingredients in her oven and then she baked me. But I'm saying my origin story is that my parents wanted me so much, they entered into this, through the miracle of science it happened. I'm saying it must be difficult and it totally could be a male/female difference. And please, this is the benefit of this show, it's a human laboratory. If you're adopted, if you're— please write in, I really want to know. I'm saying it might be hard if your origin story, the two people entering in didn't want you, you were an accident or you were the product of rape, or you were the, you know, just the product of an unfortunate circumstance.

Well, first of all, a lot of couples who are married and love each other, the child is the product of an accident.

Right, but the parents—

So let's say they are the product of an accident. So the birth mother, in the case of the adopt child, had a choice. Oh, you know what? I'm not married to the guy. In fact, we broke up, and I'll abort. What? Why isn't there this incredible gratitude that she didn't take the easy way out and had me and gave me to people who want me?

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Okay. I just, I, I do. Since I've heard this all of my life. That child is 30, so I've been, I've been thinking about adoption for a big chunk.

You mean your child?

My child? Yeah. Okay. I said that child.

Yes, right.

Yeah. And I've never understood, and I have no agenda here because it's, it It's, it's, it doesn't benefit me or hurt me in either direction. Okay, that's why I have no agenda. I don't, I don't believe that it is rational. That doesn't make it wrong, right? No, I want to make that clear, but it's not rational to say you were abandoned. There was no you there.

But isn't that— okay, this is what— this is why I love this show. We're taking it in such a different direction. If there was no you there, isn't that sort of the approach? Isn't that sort of the pro-abortion?

No, not at all. It doesn't mean you are not a precious human being, but you can't— how can you abandon what you've had no relationship with?

You have when you're— maybe this is—

oh, but I thought— no, no, no. You just said carrying doesn't count.

No, I didn't. I said carrying did.

You said carrying.

No, I think— well, forgive me.

Just an oven.

Okay. No, no, no. I think in my case it was just an oven because this is not my biological mother.

Okay. So this is, this is someone, as I recall it, like the case I know best is my own child. She wanted the child. She thought she was going to marry the man who impregnated her. He split during the pregnancy and then she decided, I will give this child up for adoption. And did not abort, to her great credit. And she was 16 years old, okay, not exactly prepared to be a mother, and a single mother at that. So was he abandoned by her? Is that— why is that— why is that a legitimate term? All I see is for life has dealt me this difficult— I'm the woman, I'm the girl, right? I wanted to marry this man. He skedaddled. I can either abort or give birth, but this is no longer the product of a union of love. He doesn't love me. In fact, he left me, and I want this child to have a loving home. Why is that abandonment?

I don't think that it is abandonment from the perspective of the, the person who you were just talking about, the mother. That being said, I can understand from the child's perspective how, how he or she might have feelings of abandonment or feelings of, wow, this, this is just, this is a very, this is a sad thing. It's a loss. Abandonment is loss. Fundamentally, that is a huge component of what it is. And I can understand from the child's perspective, again, this is sort of the theme of the conversation, even when we were talking about, you know, stepparents, even if it's not rational, your feelings may for better or for worse dictate otherwise. I can get from the child's— I agree what you said a few minutes ago, I thought was totally spot on. And I think it's a tragedy nowadays that people don't appreciate when a mother makes a hard decision to bring the child to term. I mean, I mean, that is one of the most beautiful things. No, totally. No, no, no. Hear me. I am not. I am not on this, right? I am not judging the parent. I actually think one of the bravest things a mother can do, because— and this goes back to another Dennis and Julie where I talked very openly about abortion and I said whether it's good or not good, there's a part of me that may find it easier to abort my child than bring them to term because it would be so sad for me.

Well, of course.

So, so hear me. I am not judging the parent. I admire parents parents who bring it to term and give it up for adoption. Sorry, I shouldn't have said it, the child. But from the child's perspective, I can understand having a feeling of abandonment or having sort of an uneasy feeling about their origin story. I, I can get— maybe it's the woman in me, but I can understand how I may feel like, is my exist— of course I, I want everyone, everyone should feel that their existence is precious and unique and worthy. But I can understand how one might feel, I am, I am the product of something that, you know, people may have not wanted to happen.

That's, by the way, are you— since you're not adopted, I'm very curious to get your feelings answer, not your intellectual rational answer. Is there a part of you— I have no idea what you'll say, and I'm very curious— that thinks that it goes somewhat in the other direction? Do you think that an adopt— a parent with an adopted child or an adoptive parent feels differently than the parent of a biological child in terms of love of the child?

I think it totally depends on the parent. I used to say yes. I, I used to think, how could you? And it's, you know, I'm not saying this in a judge— it's just, it's just biology.

How could you love— I'm only asking No, I know. Emotion.

I used to say yes, there would be a difference between how a parent views an adopted child versus a biological child. You actually made me think otherwise because of your powerful writing about the, the nature of love and how it actually, you know, they say you, you've told me it's actually better to say you love someone like a friend versus you love someone like a family member. Because friends you choose and family members you don't, and love shouldn't be contingent upon blood. You have changed my perspective on that. But I think that's because, to your credit, you're a very rational person, right? But I think it's harder to love an adopted child as much as you would a biological child.

It's not true, though.

Probably not.

I think most people think that, except for those who have it. And I can prove to people, to the extent that proof is possible in an emotional issue, uh, so I give a very odd analogy, but it's pretty powerful. Just think, if, if you have a dog, how much you love your dog. Now, that's not just, not just your biological child. That's not your species, and you are crazy in love with a dog. How— why don't we do exponentially what it would be to be a human that you have as your child? Number 2, I'm a father, not a mother. When did I first meet my— I'm really a rare case. I have one of each. Yeah, so it's like God gave me this so I could—

and you have stepchildren.

You have like the whole— yes, that's right. This is not abstract.

Yes.

So when did I first meet my biological child?

I think 5 days after he was born. Is that—

No, no, biological.

Oh, sorry, I was thinking of Aaron. Um, the moment he was born, right?

The day he was born, right? When did I first meet my adopted child?

Was it 5 days after?

No, the day he was born. Oh, so as a father, what the hell's the difference to me where— what oven he was cooked in? Second, third, I don't give a damn about my seed. I don't. I care— I, as I say, and this I could prove this, and I will. I really got to write this up because it so would be helpful to people. So I, as I always say, I am only interested in transferring my values to my children, not my seed. I have no interest in whether or not— first of all, it's not my— see, I'm only half anyway. Half their DNA is their mother. So, so I'm preoccupied with half his DNA? I mean, it's— it— to me, it's, it's almost absurd. And I could prove it to anyone listening that what I say, they would feel. So I, I did this because I don't know why I stopped. I used to do one show a year, one hour a year of radio. On the case of Danny. Well, not— well, that's when Danny was— this case which I've written about in Think a Second Time. But no, no, I did it an hour a year on adoption, okay, on blood versus love. Guy calls me up. I don't know if— I wonder if you know the story. I hope you don't.

I don't think I do.

Guy calls me up, says, Dennis, really respect you and all, and I agree with you virtually all the time, but not on this one. And let me give you my circumstance. My parents— as a Jewish guy— my parents are Holocaust survivors. Literally, their entire families were murdered by, by the Germans. Murdered. All they had— they had nobody left. They lost their children, they lost their siblings, their parents. They had each other, okay? Which has happened to a lot of people. Every relative was murdered. It's, it's beyond imagination for us. So I am their one child, Dennis. They've only been able to conceive one child. I'm that child. Do you understand why blood would be important to them? Pretty good, good. Yeah, right.

I was gonna say, I wouldn't want to be you on the other side.

Well, this is what I answered. I said, so here's what I'd like you to do. I'd like you to call your parents parents, or next time you're with them, ask them this question: Mom and Dad, what would you prefer, a blood child who didn't identify as a Jew, or an adopted child who carried on the Jewish tradition and Jewish identity?

What did he say?

You know what he said? You're right.

Oh, wow.

That's what he said.

Only you. That's a very, very good response. You know what you were, what you were saying about, um, not caring about, you know, being half or, or I guess not having the same sort of biological connection. I really do think it is a difference between male and female.

Yes. That's why, that's how I began this discussion.

Totally. Men can very easily forget that they're, they have impregnated someone. With a woman, literally all day, every day. I mean, I haven't been pregnant, but I can imagine.

Right.

But even you literally cannot Right.

But you're— how ironic that this is even rarer than being an adoptive parent, that you were born to a surrogate.

I know.

I mean, so we have covered every base, but we really do. It's really amazing.

It is. It's cool.

But, but, but she didn't have that every day for 9 months, and yet was happy to, to do what she promised your parents. You mean the surrogate mother? Well, she, she carried you for 9 months, but But, but all, all of those attachment hormones or attachment feelings didn't, didn't apply.

And on the other side, my mom didn't carry a child for 9 months and the attachment did apply.

I'm only reacting to your point that 9 months of that does really cause something.

Yes.

So the male-female difference is not just on carrying. I don't know what it's about. I really don't. I know that it's there. It's that with adoptive kids, adopted kids, And by the way, a lot of adopted daughters are crazy about their parents. I mean, the people who raised them, right? And that's a given. But the, the sense of abandonment and, and searching for the birth parents is, I think, generally much more to be found among girls.

Yes, I think so. I want to clarify what I was saying earlier about about the, the children of parents who've divorced maybe having sort of a biological, uh, conflict. I think you're right that it is more pronounced in girls. Girls probably just think about this way more than guys. But let me give you some examples. And again, this is coming from my privileged, lucky position of being the child of people who are married and love each other very much. I feel, again, probably because I'm a woman, I feel very biologically whole because my parents love each other and are married. And like, For instance, when I express a— I have my mom's— some people may not see this in me because I'm so serious on the show, but I'm a character, as you know. My mom is a total character. So whenever I do something that's like my mom, I know, you know, my dad will compliment and go, oh, you're just like your mother, in a really fond way. And I'll see, you know, I'll have that part of my mom. Or then my dad is very cerebral and likes to read. When I do that, my mom will say, you're just like your dad. And I feel this sort of unity of great parts of my parents. Even when I look in the mirror, I have my mom's nose, I have my dad's eyes. I feel this unity. I realize it's just such woman stuff.

Yes. Well, no, no, no. Okay, so I don't know. I can only tell you, and I'm truly letting the chips fall where they may, okay? Because I could see people thinking Dennis is a bit weird on this one.

Yep.

None of that means anything to me. I— if my— if I had— if my biological son looked spitting image of his mom and not at all like me, it would make no difference to me. I don't yearn to have him look like me. I don't yearn him to have my habits or my idiosyncrasies or anything like that. I yearn for him to be a good happy, responsible man, husband, father. I know it almost sounds corny, but you know me, that's what animates me.

It's true.

Well, also, I, I just want to say, I don't, I don't know any of your siblings, obviously, but, uh, it— people, people, because they yearn to find traits that bond them to a parent will say, oh, you do that, it's just like mom. You do that, it's just like dad. But what if your siblings don't do any of that? They're also biological children. Maybe it isn't because you are their— you love to read. I don't know if either of your parents loves to read as much as you, and I'm not even asking, and it's not necessary for you to comment on it. But let's say, let's say they, they do. Do you think your love of reading is because of them? Do your siblings love to read? Do my siblings love to read? Did they get it from— did we get it from our parents? There was— if it's from parents, most biological siblings would be similar to one another. But it's rare that siblings are similar to one another.

That is true. No, I— it's also— this, this whole thing is very interesting because as much as I think about, oh, I have this part of my mom or this part of my dad. I think also what I like about myself is that in many ways I'm different from my parents. And I have, like, for instance, you just mentioned love of reading, even though I agree it's not necessarily necessary for me to comment, but, um, I have— my parents are not as voracious of readers as I am. And I like that I have something different. But still, I also sort of like having the foundation of feeling this biological unity. And maybe that's total woman speak. It probably is. It also could be unique to my situation because my parents really made my origin story as part of my life because they knew that it was different. They knew that I was probably never going to encounter anyone else who was born from a surrogate. And by the way, I have not encountered anyone else. Isn't that amazing? In my life, I have not. Maybe, maybe I think maybe we know someone who has a kid that was just born, but no one my age. I've never met anyone else that's born from a surrogate. And so maybe I think about my origin story more than, than others might. But again, I love the, the human laboratory. This is why, this is why I publicize my email address because I, I'm so interested to know what if, if other people can relate to what I'm saying or if they think it's just woman speak.

Well, I wouldn't throw the word just It might be woman speak and it's completely valid.

No, I didn't mean to dismiss it.

Yeah, no, no, I want to make my position clear. I— all I'm saying, but it's a big all, like I said to that Jewish guy who called me up, even all of you who value biology and value seed and so on and genes and anything else and characteristics, There is no comparison between having all of that and not sharing your child's values and having none of that and sharing values.

It is such a good point. It is a really important point. Yes, because your biological children can feel like strangers to you.

Well, there are millions, probably tens— every audience I ask I ask, raise your hand if you know a family. You don't have to be self-conscious. It's not necessarily your family. You know a family where an adult child doesn't speak to a parent. At least one-third of the hands go up. And that's— and the last time I asked, it was a religious Jewish crowd.

Yeah. Well, sadly, I think it's probably more heightened among religious crowds because children—

No, no, I don't think it is.

Oh, really?

Yeah. They may— no, no, you're thinking of not necessarily sharing their religion. No, no. That— don't talk to the parent. Oh, there are a lot of kids who abandon the parents' religion and they talk to the parent, right? Not talk to the parent. That's the ultimate. And these are all biological children.

No, I mean, I've, I've seen it. I've seen it in my own life. It's very—

if you couldn't conceive, or, or your husband, God willing, should you have one—

thanks.

You're the one who made that prediction before the show.

I did.

Okay. You can't conceive naturally, okay?

I would adopt, of course.

Okay, fine.

And I would love that child.

No, no, you have no idea how much you— the second the child would be in your arms, you would forget how he got there.

Oh, hear me, I would totally— I'm not anti-adoption.

I'm very pro-adoption. Oh, I know you're not.

None of this, my arguments were to say anything like that.

No, no, no, we're talking emotionally.

Right, I would be delighted to have a child. I would just want that child to be happy, healthy, good.

Yes, exactly. Yes, that's right. So, well, look, ask, ask people whose kid is a different race. You love them less than the kids of the same race.

I know, like the evil Amy Coney Barrett, who Ibram X. Kendi called akin to a slave owner because she adopted Black children. Is that, is that safe?

Well, he did say that.

Yes. I mean, maybe it wasn't akin to, but it was, it was something like, this is a legacy of slavery. White people thinking that they can own Black people, white mothers adopting Black children.

You own your child.

No, it's, I mean, it's beyond idiotic and it's evil actually.

It's evil. It is evil. It, the whole, that whole world of thought is evil. But I just find it hilarious. You own your child. My parents didn't think they owned me. I think by the time I was 7.

When you were tipping the porter at the airport.

Tipping the porter at the airport.

But see, this is also, I said on a recent Dennis and Julie, the stories that you're told as a child really do inform how you view yourself. I talked about the story at my preschool when I stood up to a bully in front of all these kids and all these parents, and that inculcated in me, I'm— I stand up for what's right. I'm not afraid to do so publicly. I think that's influenced where I am now. You talked— you answered on that show that, that the story was told to you constantly.

Oh yeah, so the stories were told about ourselves.

Yes. And I think— but I think your origin story, at least again, I recognize in my case it's especially heightened But I think your origin story really has a lot to do with that, or can have a lot to do with that.

Well, I'll just say this, uh, I, and I made, I made, I think, a good case. Look, it's touched you, so it's a good case. Uh, what you, what you really want from your child has very little to do to do with any of the biological stuff. That's, that's the bottom line when you really think about it.

Definitely.

And you know, sometimes we're so— look, look, you're an outlier, okay? I'm an outlier. It's the way it is. I mean, to be totally honest, my parents didn't know where the hell I came from, and they were the biological parents of me. My mother carried me 9 months. I have every reason to assume it was my father who impregnated my mother. And it is no— of course it's no knock on them. I mean, if you have a high school kid who does no homework but teaches himself Russian and to conduct orchestras, yes, you know you have a— you can't say, oh, we produced that. And I'm not bragging. I didn't produce me either. This is my nature. Dennis Prager. I don't take credit. I'm just saying I was so different, and you're so different. I don't know, I can't— I don't know your parents well enough, but I just know how different you are from the norm. Where do we come from? We are— this notion that, yes, you're the product of your parents in some ways. I mean, I hope that I influence both my boys. And I think I did. And that's it. That's it. I—

The randomness of life is a weird thing to contemplate. And you alerted me to it when you talk about natures. I see biological children who do not resemble their parents' values in any way, even though their parents are wonderful. I see non-biological children who are very close with their, you know, non-biological parents. I see—

Oh, here's a killer. How about bad biological parents with wonderful children?

Yes, yes. Or even, even stuff like ugly parents producing a gorgeous child, or vice versa. Even if you look at someone like— I hope it's okay I'm saying his name— Jacob. There is this 13-year-old boy at Dennis's Torah minyan, the synagogue, who is so mature. I mean, this guy is like— yes, I am— I can't even tell you how wowed I am by him. He writes emails to me explaining what Purim this. And he's so— I mean, where does he come from? Where the hell does a 13-year-old like that come from? And then there were 50-year-olds who might as well be 3 years old. It's, it's just so— yeah, you know, it's crazy.

You got to be, you got to be humble as a parent. The best you can do is not screw them up. You're— the capacity of a parent to really screw up a child It's quite great. Yes. But beyond that, and my dream was to share values. I mean, I told my kids, I don't give a damn about your grades. How many parents—

I know that's—

said that to their kids?

I don't know if I would even say that to my kids.

Okay. Yeah.

I wouldn't say that's the first thing that I—

Yeah.

The first thing I value is their goodness.

Well, I made clear, I mean, if you're not doing schoolwork, you're not going to be on TV. You're not going to be playing video games.

Names, right?

But, but the grades don't matter to me. Your character matters to me. And I, and I, I rammed that home, and I, I hope— I, I, I have reason to believe it took hold.

Yes, you do. You do. And it took hold in your grandchildren too, who are so cute. And I'm not a kid person, but they're really—

to my consternation, they have good grades.

I have to— I think about that story of, of, uh, Jack. Is it Jack, the younger one?

Yeah.

Raising his hand during that speech. He was sitting—

he was the only one under 60 to raise his hand.

So funny. Again, where, where do characters come from?

That's right, really, we, we should know.

God has a lot to explain. Well, the bad and the good, you know, just—

there's a lot. Yes, that's correct. You and my wife should make up a list. Oh, Sue, I would say at least once a week. I'd like to ask God. And then she fills in some unfairness in the world. Not that she's experienced.

She's been right. No, I—

yep, yep. Anyway, this was intense. This was—

it was— boy, we, we didn't even know. We never know where we're going to go.

This was really charm. I mean, it— this is magic. Okay, tell, tell everybody goodbye. Goodbye, everybody.

No, please write to me, julie@julie-hartman.com, which I'm sure Dennis Dennis knew and was going to say—

Julie Dash Hartman. But it's not Julie D-A-S-H Hartman.

Yes. Let's clarify that. It's the hyphen.

No, it's the dash.

Oh, okay. Yeah. You know, I didn't know that they— the— they— the was an article on my show Timeless. I didn't know.

You didn't?

No, I didn't.

Did you know the word article for English grammar?

No, I knew the word article, but I couldn't remember if the was an article.

And so was a. I don't know. I can't think of others. Just remember though, who is he, he is she, and me is who?

Yes, I will definitely remember that. Bye everyone, and remember to subscribe, please.

Yes.

Shalom.

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