Dennis & Julie: Chicken Shawarma

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Hey everybody, welcome to Dennis and Julie. I'm the Dennis of Dennis and Julie. I think people have to make that clear these days. In any event, welcome. This can be heard on Spotify and Apple and YouTube and the Salem Podcast Network.

Is it?

Is that the word? Network, Sean? Correct. Very good. Julie and I are with you every week at this time. And of course, it stays on the internet. You can watch it anytime. You can have others do it. And we talk about life. I just want everybody to know again, I have never co-hosted in 40 years of radio. So it gives you an idea of how highly I think of Julie, Julie Hartman. Julie has just returned from a week in Israel. She has never— she had never been to Israel before. I told her we're not going to talk about this off air, so I have no idea what her responses will be. But before Ukraine and before life and before school, and anything else on our minds. Julie, how did you react to your first trip to Israel?

To say I loved it is an understatement. Before I get into my takeaways, I just want to quickly give people a background of the trip. So I went on this trip through the Harvard Hillel. They took about 100 undergrads to Israel, and interestingly, it was primarily a trip for non-Jews. To show Gentiles Israel, although of course they brought some Jews. And it was a totally student-led trip led by Israeli Harvard students. And we were there for 8 days. And I said at the beginning of the trip, I think this is going to be the best trip of my life and the hardest trip of my life. And that was true. It was the best in that I learned so much. I am coming away with such gratitude for my upbringing and to live in America and such gratitude to been able to tour such an interesting country. But it was very hard in the fact that it was obviously very emotionally exhausting and physically exhausting. But also I got food poisoning in Nazareth while I was there. So that was a little bit difficult. I think my biggest takeaway is that I am just utterly in awe of the state of Israel. That doesn't mean that I completely agree with everything the country has done or continues to do, and we can get into that. But if you just take a step back and look at what the Jews have had to endure for 2,000 years, I mean, even starting back in biblical times, the land of Israel was conquered by the Babylonians and the Persians and the Romans. Then the Jews were exiled, and everywhere in Europe turned them away, and they were the victims of antisemitism, pogroms, which are very famous in Russia. And then fast forward to the Holocaust, which is arguably the biggest atrocity of humankind, when an already very tiny group, 6 million of them, were exterminated. And then 3 years after the Holocaust, they come back to Israel and have to fight a brutal war of independence that established the country. And then 20 years later, they're invaded by every single neighboring Arab country, and they win that war. And then today they continue to face such threats. Hamas, the terrorist organization in Gaza. The Hezbollah, which is a terrorist organization in Lebanon. There are Iranian and Russian outposts in neighboring Syria. Not to mention that there are frequent suicide bombers in the West Bank. In fact, during our trip, one of our tour guides', uh, best friend was hospitalized because he was stabbed by a Palestinian in the West Bank. I mean, say what you want about Israel, but that is just a remarkable story, and that's what I'm coming away with. What a story of resilience.

Wow, was that beautiful. Why do you think Israel's so hated?

I don't know. I'm sorry I can't give you a better answer. I wonder that. It really is hated. I don't know if I told you this, Dennis, but before we left, our trip was heavily protested. All around the dining halls throughout Harvard, there are signs saying if you go on Israel Trek, you are supporting an apartheid state, you're supporting ethnic cleansing, you're supporting white colonialism. It's just so sad. And I actually was in the dining hall a few weeks ago. I sent you a picture of this. I remember they have takeout containers of hummus and they have Sabra hummus. And I opened it and inside there was a sticker sticker that says, "Do not eat this hummus. It is funded by—" It is an Israeli company, or actually, I don't know if it's an Israeli company, or it's funded by an Israeli company. And if you're eating this hummus, you are supporting apartheid. I mean, how ridiculous is that?

What do you say after your visit about the apartheid charge?

Look, obviously the situation is incredibly complicated. I do have sympathy for the Palestinians. I can understand how if someone came to my house in Los Angeles and said, this is my land, I belong here, I would say, I'm sorry, this is my land. I've been here. What are you doing? So I think obviously the situation is very tragic, but I think apartheid is way blown out of proportion. I do not think that that's the case. I think that unfortunately, the Palestinian Authority is a large problem, which is the de facto government in the West Bank that is incredibly corrupt. It jails dissidents. Steals money from its citizens. Obviously, Gaza has been taken over by Hamas, which is a terrorist organization. I— my heart goes out to the many Palestinian refugees who were forced off of their land in 1948. I don't think that all of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are moral. I think that something needs to be done about that. But to say that it's ethnic cleansing and to say that it's apartheid, the reality that just doesn't reflect the situation. What do you think, Dennis?

Well, uh, that was a lot. In a nutshell, the Israeli Arab is the freest Arab in the Middle East, which is why they continue to live there. It's like, why do Blacks— why did 3 million Blacks move to the United States if it's systemically racist? The answer is They're not stupid. It's the best place in the world for a black person to live. The best place in the world for most Arabs to live is Israel, the Jewish state in the Middle East. That's why they stay there, and that's why so many would like to move there. So I think that the movement of 3 million blacks to the United States from Africa and the Caribbean puts the lie to the systemically racist charge, and the fact that so many Arabs don't want to leave Israel and so many Arabs want to move to Israel gives the lie to the apartheid charge. Israeli Arabs are in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliament. One is a Supreme Court Justice. They have ambassadors. They're part of Israeli life. They speak Hebrew fluently, as you probably mentioned, or not mentioned, noted there when you were there. Although obviously you don't speak Hebrew, so you wouldn't have conversed with them, but they do. So it's just, it's just a lie. As regards the West Bank, I don't know what Israel is supposed to do. If Israel leaves the West Bank, then it becomes Hamas-run, just like when they left Gaza. When Israel left Gaza, it was immediately destroyed by the Palestinians themselves. And that's exactly what would happen in the West Bank. No country on earth would like to be surrounded, would make it possible to be surrounded by people who wish to exterminate it. So, to me, the issue— you're entirely right, there are complexities, of course there are. And there is a Palestinian tragedy, of course that's true. But otherwise, it's a pretty morally clear issue, and the apartheid charge is as vile as the America systemically racist charge. And the proof is again the way Arabs want to live there and stay there. Does that make sense?

It does. You know, another point I want to make, seeing Israel made me realize how in peril America is because one, one of my biggest takeaways is that Israelis are so proud to be Israeli. They have such spirit. And it's so interesting to me that something so beautiful that is their spirit is animated by something so tragic. That is the Israel-Palestinian conflict and the long history of antisemitism. And the Israeli Jews who are Harvard students who are leading the trip, they know how precious Israel is. They know why it's important to preserve it. And that is something that is just so lost in America today. So much of this country is, so many people in this country are not proud to be American. I'll tell you the story that really, really hit me. One of our last nights in Israel, we went to a Reform synagogue for Shabbat dinner, and the rabbi got up to give a speech to us to welcome us, and he said, "Well, hello everyone. Wow, you are here from the United States, the best country in the world." And he paused, and no one in the audience clapped. Not a single person clapped. And so the rabbi then says, where's the enthusiasm? And then people started clapping. And I was just sitting there. And by the way, full disclosure, I didn't clap. I mentioned earlier I had horrible food poisoning. I was sitting in the back in a daze. But I, I just observed that. And it was so startling to me. And what a better story to indicate the difference between Israeli spirit and lack of American spirit. How many— really sad.

I wonder, as a Jew, I wonder how many Reform rabbis in America would say to their congregation, America is the best country in the world. My suspicion is quite a few— excuse me, quite little, very few. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my suspicion. The— it's so— it's a certain irony that a Reform rabbi in Israel said this. I'm obviously happy that he did. By the way, on the food poisoning, what was it you ate? Do you know?

I ate chicken shawarma, and let me tell you, Dennis, even saying the words chicken shawarma makes my stomach—

it was really— will you ever have it again?

No. And by the way, you want to hear the supreme irony of the situation? We're sitting in this restaurant and the people were so nice. They were so welcoming to us and they were so shocked that we were from Harvard. It really made me appreciate Harvard. They just almost fell to the floor when they heard that we were touring there. Anyways, I digress. I'm eating the chicken shawarma and I turned to my friends sitting there and I said, are we going to get food poisoning from this? And they all just laughed at me and said, don't say that. And then 5 hours later, I'm throwing up on the bus. And unable to move. Were you the only one who got it? No, one other person got it, and now he's my best friend. That we bonded so much.

That, that, that is— yes, that's very funny to think that you bonded over regurgitation. I, I had food poisoning a few times in my life, uh, and it's terrible. It's the word poison Is this appropriate? Anyway, I just was curious what it was that you ate. I was hospitalized, actually. Yours took place in an Arab restaurant, if it was Nazareth. Mine took place in a kosher restaurant in Jerusalem. Oh no. Yeah, when I was your age. And I was hospitalized. I mean, I was truly in— I was in bad shape. It could be pretty lousy. But it's the inevitability of travel. It's like, it's one of those perfect examples of if people are scared of something, they won't live a full life. If you're scared of food poisoning, stay home. Although it could happen at home too, obviously. Your appreciation of America and the lack of the clapping, that's such a fascinating tale that you told there. There's another example is the Ukrainians. I mean, I wonder how many Americans who have no great love for this country look at the love that Ukrainians have for their country and wonder, hmm, we don't have anything like that. You think it occurs to people to— because there's universal support for the Ukrainians in this country. It absolutely does not occur to people, right? I can tell you that. Interesting. I'm curious, are there any Ukrainian flags up at Harvard?

Yes, they rose the Ukrainian flag in Harvard Yard, which was very moving.

Is there an American flag at Harvard Yard?

I think there is.

Right. So my suspicion is that there are more Ukrainian flags at American campuses than American flags.

You're probably right. And they need it right now. But we also should have our flag.

No, no, I'm not against— I'm totally for waving the Ukrainian flag. No, I know you are. Yes. But I'm just saying, it's really, there's an irony here that, yes, well, we're embattled as well. I assume you feel that upon your return.

I want to hear about your feelings about Israel. When was the first time that you went? And have you been there for long periods of time?

Well, so I've been there about 25 times. I lost count at, I think, at about 18. I don't know why I lost count there, but I did. I mean, it's about 25 times. I used to go when I was in my 20s, I went every single year. So what I would do is every summer I would go to a different part of the world. That's how I spent my money because I always wanted to see every country in the world. And as you know, and I've never ceased bragging, I've been to 130 countries. And you know, I'm approaching 200, but it's going to be a long, tough slog now. The countries that are left are not your everyday, you know, like the Congo. These are not— or Rwanda. These are not easy. And I've been to 20 African countries. Anyway, every year I would go abroad in the summer somewhere in the world, and before I went back to the U.S., I would go and stop in Israel wherever I was. I had a lot of friends in Israel. I stayed with friends on a kibbutz every time I was there for Shabbat. For Sabbath. And it had such a powerful impact on my life that I don't talk— you're right, your question is apt because I don't talk about it much. I talk about Israel in terms of explaining it and defending it, but I don't talk about its role in my life almost ever. And it's an interesting sort of gap But Julie, I got to tell you, it was, and it's very hard for a non-Jew, I think, to fully feel this or empathize with this. The sense of security that a Jew has going to Israel is given the deep sense of insecurity because of Jewish history is not something fully explicable to a non-Jew. And I certainly felt it because when I was your age, it was right after the Six-Day War. And that was, of course, a time where I remember before the war I thought Israel could be destroyed, and I was, I was distraught over the possibility that so soon after the Holocaust there would be another one. And that's how Jews all over the world felt, that this could happen again so soon. This was 19— let's see, the Holocaust ends in '45, this was '67, 22 years later. So my first time in Israel I was younger than you, in fact. I went after the Six-Day War. I was 18. And I just, I was overwhelmed by it. So it has played a very deep emotional role in my life. My life has been really a an affirmation of, as I write in what I hope will be my autobiography, so I, there are three me's. I'm a man, I'm a Jew, and I'm an American. That's my three me's. And the American part developed the slowest. I didn't realize how American I was till I was 20. And I remember even when it happened, Christmas in Morocco when I was 20 years old, and I thought, my God, I'm really missing Christmas back home. And I, you know, I'm not a Christian, so why am I missing Christmas back in America? And then I realized how much— I started to realize how much I loved America. So to have those two— I'll end with this Julie, I think you'll be touched. I don't know if you've heard me say this, but you may well have, because you've heard a lot from me. I was asked many, many years ago, maybe 25 years ago, Israelis living in LA asked if I would come to their group, and they wanted a free speech. I remember that. And I said, okay, I'll come for free on one condition. They said, what? That you interview me in Hebrew. So they were shocked. You know Hebrew? I said, yes, I know Hebrew. So they said, that would be great, we'd love to interview you in Hebrew, it's better for us. So the guy asked me, so are you first an American or first a Jew? It's one of his first questions. And I came up with an answer spontaneously which has guided my life, and that is, I said, I want you to understand I have two fathers, George Washington and Abraham. And that is how I have felt my whole life. That's very rich to feel you are so deeply embedded in two peoples. Most of the kids, as you said, don't even feel embedded in one. How many, right? That, that's, that is, the loss is stupendous. To feel you are part of nothing is— and I feel I'm part of so much. The richness is, uh, something I never lose sight of. I assume— did you ever hear my George Washington Abraham answer? No, I've never heard that. It's a good one though.

It's a great one. You know, speaking of Abraham, I want to tell you how much I enjoyed your Torah commentary, and how enriching it was for me to read before I went to Israel. We went, one of the first sites we went to was the Dome of the Rock, which is of course the site where Abraham was believed to have almost sacrificed his son Isaac before, of course, an angel intervened. And also that site has importance to Muslims as well, as it was believed, I think, where Muhammad ascended to heaven. That's right. Right. And it was just— it made such a difference in my trip having read your Torah commentary, because when I went to each of the sites, I really felt like I understood the historical and religious significance. And so when I went to the Dome of the Rock, that Abraham and Isaac story specifically, and the lessons that you drew from it of how it's really an example of how if you're devoted to God, God will protect you and how God doesn't want you to sacrifice your children or your loved ones. All of those themes that you drew out were very powerful. And I'm making a shameless plug for the Torah commentary. You know, everyone asks me how I became acquainted with you. And I said, shockingly, it actually first was not through his conservatism. It was through his religious books. Hmm.

That's very touching, actually. So did people on the bus know that you and I are affiliated?

Oh, yes. I was reading the Torah commentary on the bus, and I was passing it around to people, and I have to say that people were also very grateful for it because also it's very short and to the point, which is great when you're on a 20-minute bus ride and you want to understand the historical significance of the next site. In two pages. So I, that was really special for me because I think people got a little bit of a glimpse of why I admire you so much.

Well, for the record, and as I think everybody knows, the, the admiration is mutual. Thank you. Was there, was there talk in Israel about Ukraine?

I think it was referenced a few times. Honestly, not a lot. We really stuck to the Israel-Palestine conflict.

It makes sense. I was just curious.

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It's, uh, as I told my listeners on my show, I'm hounded by it. There are, there are now 3.5 million refugees in a country of 40 million, 10 million people displaced from their homes. One out of every four Ukrainians is not living in his house. We're talking about something, a first since World War II. It's really, it's really horrific, Julie, I got to tell you. I'm sure obviously it'll be, it'll be more present in your life you know, having returned home. Although when I talked to you about this before you left, you made it— you made a point. I think it was on our broadcast, but maybe just privately, that— and I agreed with you— college is a time to find out who you are. And so people tend to somewhat tune out the world. Was that correct, that I got you right on that?

I think I said it on the broadcast. I may have said it to you on the phone, so we will have to go back and check. Right.

But that— yeah, that's the gist of the message. Yeah. So it's not particularly a passion-filled subject at Harvard.

Well, it was a few weeks ago, right when Putin invaded. In the days following, there was a large protest in Harvard Yard and people were talking about about it. Now, of course, that's dissipated. And I think I said to you, Dennis, on the one hand, I sort of understand how college, college is the time to prioritize yourself and people aren't going to be checking the news constantly or they're not going to be extremely plugged in into the happenings of the world. But I think actually, not to bring everything back to this Israel trip, although it did really change my life, seeing how engaged the Israelis are engaged in the conflict, of course, because they have to be engaged, really imparted to me how not engaged we are and how important it is to be. Because it's a privilege to not fully understand these issues. It's a privilege to not read the news every day. And so I wish that Ukraine was talked about a bit more. It was at the beginning, but not really now.

There are two things that strike one, and I wonder if the other, the second one, struck you while you were there about differences between Israel and America. So one is the patriotism of Israelis. You, so you mentioned that, but here's another one. How many children they have. Did you notice that? Many.

So you did notice it. I did, yes.

It was so— it's statistically accurate and it's accurate in terms of just perception. There are so many kids being wheeled in strollers in Israel and so many more than, than here. And it's, it's a true American tragedy. People are opting not to have kids, and in Israel it is common to have 4 kids.

You know, of course, the most kids I saw were with Orthodox Jews. And I want to ask you, because I've been really thinking about this, I know that you're a very devout Jew. What do you think about the Orthodox community in Israel? One of the things that I learned, which was really shocking to me, was that Orthodox men do not have to serve in the IDF, when of course all other Israelis do. What are your thoughts on that?

I was always opposed to it. It was started by the founder of Israel, Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister. And he was asked, and he said, look, there are so few of them, let them study Torah all day. It's okay, that's their thing, that's their contribution to us. Even though he was completely secular, he was a big lover of the Bible. And so at that time, with so few Orthodox Jews, and making up such a small percentage of the population, not having them serve in the army was fine. But as they became bigger and bigger a part of the population, it, it was not morally or Jewishly defensible. And by the way, I don't, I don't know exactly why they told you that, because that has been somewhat changed, and a lot of Orthodox, certainly modern Orthodox, do serve in the army. You, you will— I'm surprised if you didn't see soldiers with— wearing a kippah, yarmulke. Did you, did you not notice that, or did you not see soldiers?

Oh, I saw many soldiers. I didn't notice whether or not they were wearing— yeah, I don't think I saw many.

Right. Okay. Yeah, that may well be, but, but there are. And so I would be very interested to know what the current rule is. With regard to maybe the ultra-Orthodox still don't enter the armed forces, but I know all the modern Orthodox do. And so it— but just know, since you asked me, I think it was a terrible policy. I think it hurt religious/non-religious relations in Israel. I don't think it, I know it. And the notion of, hey, we're dying so that you can study Torah, that doesn't make the study of Torah all that admirable, right? And I obviously love the Torah, but look, life, life is messy, and that's true in Israel. You know what you have to watch? Shtisel. Have you ever heard of Shtisel? No, I haven't. Julie, there are many wonderful things I hope that I have brought into your life. This will be one of them.

Oh, wow.

This, this, yes, this is a, uh, what do you, what would you call it, a, um, a series, a TV series, I guess. So a TV show, TV series. It's there. I think there are 4 years worth, uh, and I have seen every episode Sue and I have absolutely— we, we barely breathe while watching it. We are so riveted, and this stuff doesn't often rivet me, these series. So now that you've been to Israel, it's about an ultra-Orthodox family, and it, it is brilliantly written, brilliantly acted. Shtisel, S-H-T-I-S-S-E-L, and that'll, uh, that'll help you see a world that you would not know much about. I know a fair amount. I grew up Orthodox. It was modern Orthodox, but I had some ultra-Orthodox relatives. So this is not a world foreign to me, but it doesn't matter. It's foreign to Sue, and she is at least as riveted as I am. So welcome back. I have another quick question for you. For you. How was Turkish Airlines?

Oh, it was fabulous. We, we had great meals, although yesterday on the plane they were serving chicken shawarma and I said, oh, oh God, give me something else. So did you not eat it?

Did you not eat it?

Oh, Dennis, I can't get— there were people next to me eating it. Actually, you know, it may not have been chicken shawarma, it may What's the other kind of chicken? Honestly, any kind of chicken right now I have to stay away from for a minimum of a year.

But the airline and its service was good? Were good?

Fabulous. Fabulous. They were so nice to us.

And how was Ankara Airport? I mean, Istanbul. Sorry, Istanbul Airport.

Oh, Dennis, let me tell you, that place is a complex. We had a 3-hour layover, so we flew flew from Boston to Istanbul and then we had 3 hours and then we flew from Istanbul to Tel Aviv. And it was like, it resembled a futuristic shopping mall. They had so many fun stores and restaurants and it was just a maze. It was really fun to walk around.

Have you been there? Yes. And I'm curious to ask you, but I haven't been there in a while. Uh, the— was there— was it obvious how much security that the Turks have on flights to Israel?

Oh, so much. We went through, I think, 3 rounds of security, right?

I believe that because there are people in Turkey who would like to blow up a plane going to Israel, whether it's Turkish Airlines or— El Al flies there too, if I'm I'm not mistaken. I don't think it's just Turkish, but they're very smart Turkish Airlines because there's a huge number of people who go to Israel. They want to go for less money and the Turks have made it possible.

Well, it just made me so sad because everywhere we went, we had to be inspected. I mean, we went into going into the, going into the airport. 3 IDF soldiers came on our bus, which is so obviously filled with Harvard students, and just had to inspect everything. And I thought, what a sad existence. And one of the, one of the Israeli leaders of the trip is a freshman at Harvard. He's 26 years old. Of course, he took a lot of time off to serve in the IDF. And he was telling me about the attacks last May from Gaza. Last May, Gaza shot, I think, 3,500 rockets into Israel. And he was saying that he was in his apartment in Tel Aviv, and he was looking up and seeing the rockets, and his parents were going into bomb shelters, and he had to get a call from his IDF commander that he had to go in to serve. And boy, it just, it made me feel so grateful for my life. Talk about being disengaged. That's a reality that I have never even had to try to imagine. That's right.

Well, welcome back. It's great to be with you, great to talk to you. And just a reminder, everybody, this is Dennis and Julie— Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman— and we do this every week, and I, I really enjoy it. Okay, Julie, see you next week.

And before we go, I want to tell you that this podcast is is sponsored by MyPillow, and the promo code, much to my delight and my family's delight, is Hartman. That's H-A-R-T-M-A-N. And I also want to tell the audience that we would love to have questions from you. We've already gotten some emailed in that we'll address next week, and you can send them to me at my website, which is julie-hartman.com, again, H-A-R-T-M-A-N.com, and we'll read them aloud.

Great. All right, see everybody.

Shalom, everyone. Shalom. Shalom.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits 3 ways. 1/3 chooses the dog, 1/3 chooses the stranger, and 1/3 aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.