Dennis & Julie: Condemning Anti-Americanism

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I like this opening music. Hi everybody, Dennis Prager, the Dennis and Julie Podcast. Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman, and we got a big announcement, so Take it away, Julie.

We do have a big announcement. Well, first of all, the big announcement is that I'm graduating from college in a week from today. I will not lie to you, Dennis, and to our viewers, that there were some tears shed before I came on this podcast today.

Really?

Yes, there were.

You know what, before the big announcement—

Yeah, there is another one, by the way.

Another announcement?

Yes, but this is the one that's happening.

But so I want to, I want to just dwell on that for a moment. The tear, tear, the, the sort of bittersweet tears of graduating and leaving friends and so on. Is that what you're referring to?

Yes, it's mainly about my friends.

Well, that makes sense. How many— I know it sounds a little odd test, but I am curious. How many friends would you say you made at school?

At school, close friends, I would say about 6 or 7.

That's a big deal.

Totally.

So I'll ask you another question then, in light of that, and I, I have no idea what you'll say, but my assumption is that they don't all share your, your views on life.

Oh, definitely they do not. Many of them don't.

So this is a very nice thing to hear, actually, and it's because it's a big problem in a lot of people's lives where friendships of decades are lost, and even, even family members are alienated because of political, social, moral differences.

How do you explain you and your friends Well, look, let me just start off by saying I have certainly suffered some losses since I've become conservative and been publicly conservative. I have lost several friends. So that has definitely happened to me. But what I will say about these friends now, as I mean, maybe this sounds self-impressed to say, but I'm a really good friend. And I think that my friends just see that. They see that I love them. They see that I'm completely supportive of them. And again, in the spirit of full honesty, honesty, Dennis, women are competitive with one another. Not every woman wishes another woman well. That's just a little secret I'll let you in on. You probably already know that, but let me tell you, as a woman, it's very, very common that we're competitive with one another. And I really, really try as a friend to be supportive and look out for them and be in their corner. And I think my friends see that and they overlook the fact that we have disagreements.

These are— I'm very happy I asked you about this. That's a very— you just gave me a topic for a male-female hour: women's competitiveness. See, men are known for competing, but we don't take it personally. I think that's the difference, right? So, you know, the guy beat me up, or the guy won, okay. I thought it's like in hockey at the end of the playoffs. They bang each other senseless into the boards and fall on each other and sometimes fight, and then they line up and shake each other's hands. Sometimes they hug.

I know.

That's male.

Yes. Women don't be each other up, but we beat each other up with our words, right? And then—

and don't hug after it.

That's the point. And, you know, I just said what I think draws my friends to me. What draws me to my friends, first of all, they're also great friends, and I see that first and foremost. And second of all, you know, again, maybe this sounds self-impressed to say, or maybe this sounds like something I would want to think, but I do think that they are drawn to my points of view because it's, first of all, it's very unique on this campus. I don't think I've really encountered many other people who think the way that I do or who are open about it. And I think I really do have this, even though I would say overall, unfortunately, I'm a bit of a pessimist. I do have an optimistic view that if you are speaking the truth and you are being bold and brave and open about your values, I think people are drawn to that. And I've seen that with my friendships. Whether or not they always overtly admit it, I think they're drawn to it. What do you think about that, Dennis?

Well, I am thinking— no, I am thinking about that. So I have a few thoughts. First, it's a credit to you because you're, you're very, you're very strong, and we'll come to that because of your senior class speech that you gave. You're very strong. You're— look, you wrote an article that the average student at Harvard is somewhat of a sheep, and that was in the Wall Street Journal. I mean, you would think that that would have alienated your friends, but it's hard to be alienated from you. You're a kind human being. Forget the brains and the strength and all that. You're just a good, good human being. It's part of why I'm drawn to you. So I think that that's a credit to you, but I think there's another factor as well. Not but, and I think there's another factor as well. They will be able, once they graduate, to associate only with people with whom they agree. At college, you're sort of stuck with each other, right? But once you leave the cocoon, you will really enter a bigger cocoon, or, or even I should say a more constricted cocoon. Then they will choose friends with whom they agree. So this was their last opportunity to have a conservative friend.

Yes. And you know, sometimes I— when I said that point about, um, how people are drawn to bravery and they're drawn to openness. You know, I think about— I remember I was going to say I remember when I was little, but this still happens to me. You know when you're in a conversation or a fight with your mom and your mom is saying something to you and you don't want to admit that she's right, but you know that it's true and it leaves an impression on you even though you would never say it? Sometimes I get that impression with my friends. Sometimes when I'm Being so open, I mean, it's a nice segue into the senior speech because I gave this old senior speech about anti-Americanism. And I talked about how we members of Harvard University and we Americans have shirked our responsibility as the most privileged cohort on earth by undermining the system that we've benefited from. Anyways, I gave this old senior speech and some of my close friends were giving me a hard time for it. I remember this moment just really explaining to them and being so open and forthcoming with my beliefs, and I could just see it in their eyes, they sort of got it. I want to tell people, especially people my age, I want to encourage people, you will make an impression on people even if they will never admit it. I really believe the most powerful thing that you can do in life, the most lasting thing you can give to a person, you can give them money, you can give them opportunity, but the thing that will stick with them the longest is the power of your your example. And that's what I try to do. I try to be a good example. And I, again, maybe I would just like to think this, but I really, really do believe it influences people.

There's no doubt about it.

No doubt, right?

Oh, so Sean wants to know, should we play your speech? So it's an interesting question. Hey, what is it, 8 minutes? 6? Is that right, Jules?

It is. We can, we can also play excerpts too, or I can—

Do we have excerpts? Do we have prepared excerpts? All right, we'll start and stop. So explain the circumstances, why you were even— how many were asked, why you were asked to give a talk representing the senior class at Harvard.

Sure. So there is this tradition at Harvard where— so let me start off by saying that there are 12 upperclassmen houses. So freshman year you live in Harvard Yard, and then you're assorted for your remaining 3 years into one of 12 upperclassmen houses. And Harvard has this tradition when you're graduating that they select a member of each of the 12 upperclassmen houses to deliver a 5-minute speech at Memorial Church. Which is the church in Harvard Yard. Every morning they have these morning prayer exercises, and in the month of May you are assigned to a day. And because I'm in Winthrop House, one of the upperclassmen houses, I'm the representative for Winthrop.

Who, who determined that you would be?

My faculty dean. So each house has a pair of faculty deans, and they sent out this email saying, you know, if you'd like to give a speech They said, you know, you can give it really on anything. I remember this line in the speech, nothing is too trivial, nothing is too profound. And I wrote to them and I wrote this really long email saying how much I wanted to talk about it. I said in the email, actually, I really don't remember what I wrote. I said that I didn't have a definitive topic in mind, but I love public speaking and I really wanted the opportunity to do it. All right, so—

To Harvard's credit then, and I just want to be fair, and just— but tell me if I'm right— I assume they knew you're conservative and still chose you, right?

Well, I don't know, because this email— I mean, I was selected in March. I remember I was in Israel when I got the email. So that's just to say this was a long time ago. I can pull up the email, but I wrote to them and I expressed my interest, but I did not say that I was going to give a conservative speech.

Right. But still, you're right. And wasn't your Wall Street Journal article already printed?

It was already printed, yes. So, yes, kudos to them.

Yes, kudos to them. I don't think this would have happened at Princeton or Yale or Penn, to be honest, or Columbia.

Absolutely.

Actually, it's another topic for another time, and it is a good one. We should put it down. Of the Ivy League colleges, they're all woke, but I think that Harvard allows a little more dissent than the others.

Yale, I would say, is the worst.

I always think Yale is the worst, and then I, I tell a story like I did on my radio show just recently about Princeton, and then I look at the University of Pennsylvania. It's a very hard pick. Which Ivy League school is the worst, but Yale definitely is the benchmark.

Yes, Yale is unbelievable.

All right. So, so someone from each house gives a senior class talk at the church. By the way, even that I find atypical that they would continue to use the church locale.

Right. Yes. That was, that was lovely. It was a really moving service. I mean, the choir sang and they were just beautiful. And it was, it was not long. It was only about the, the entire service was only about 20 minutes. My speech took up 5 to 6 minutes of it. It was short, but it was, it was really lovely. I had never been in Memorial Church and to go in there and give that speech, I just thought, boy, I should have Spent more time.

What did the choir sing?

Oh, I don't know.

I mean, I don't mean the specific song, but were they religious songs or just songs?

To be honest, Dennis, I was so nervous.

Okay, I get it. That makes perfect sense.

I was focused. I was really focused.

Yeah, I would be very interested too, because this is one of the big things I want to talk to you about today. In any event, all right, so let's hear a little of your talk because it was, it was a courageous thing. Where can people watch you? Is it on YouTube yet?

On YouTube, yes.

So what do they, what do they do to find you?

They can type in Harvard student condemns anti-Americanism in senior speech, or you can just write in Julie Hartman Harvard senior speech and it should come up.

Or Julie Hartman condemns anti-Americanism at Harvard in speech.

Or Julie Hartman, who does a podcast with Dennis Prager, condemns Julie Hartman of the Dennis and Julie. I love that. I should change it. I should change the title.

Exactly. That's right. No, no. You know, like they, they, they have, uh, you'll see a nickname like Joe you know, Killer Kowalski. And so you will have Julie— Dennis and Julie Hartman. Yes, the new— your new middle name. Okay, so let's hear, uh, let's hear Julie at Harvard.

If we lose freedom in America, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth. President Ronald Reagan. Last spring break, I went on a trip with 100 other Harvard undergraduates to Israel. It was one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life, and I will always be grateful to Harvard for that. I recall the trip with awe and joy, but a certain moment rattled me. Our group attended a Shabbat dinner at a Tel Aviv synagogue. The rabbi proclaimed, "Welcome to Israel! You are all here from America, the best country in the world." He paused, but not a single person clapped.

Let's hold it there. This, I will tell you, when you told me this story, I thought two things. One, I— how many people noted what you noted? I want you to answer that if you can. And secondly, I want to, I want to just talk to you about that phenomenon. But first, do you think everybody noticed the silence?

No. In fact, I brought it up to some of the people who were on the trip. Um, I sent the YouTube video to them actually, and they watched it and they said, I don't remember that moment. Did that happen? And I thought, oh my gosh, you don't— it's not shocking to me that they didn't.

That's right. So this is— I thought it was a statement about you that you— that this made such an impact, but I wanted to make sure I was right. That they don't even remember that silence. That is— that's devastating. And the very fact that these are all non-Jewish kids who went to Israel from Harvard and would go at all, it means they're not woke, they're not radical. They may all be liberal/left, but they're certainly not woke or radical. They wouldn't have gone to Israel. And even they, A, didn't clap, and B, didn't note the silence.

Right.

So let's continue with your talk.

Yes.

The Israelis stared in disbelief. Americans are the freest, most privileged people on earth, yet many of us are ashamed to show any, even the tiniest trace of national pride.

Why?

Because we Americans of recent generations have been swaddled in prosperity and security, and in consequence have become ungrateful for the blessings we enjoy. It requires vigorous athletic imagination for most of us to consider the basic brutal realities that much of the world experiences daily. Even worse, we have consumed a cultural diet that reduces America to its ugliest moments and dismisses its noble ideals and accomplishments as jingoism.

Wait a minute, another beauty, reduces America to its ugliest moments. This is worth the price of admission along with your previous insight as to the silence when the rabbi said you come from the best country in the world or or freest country, whichever he said. So this, this, what was this a point that I wanted to, what did you just say that I wanted to stress?

Reduces America to its ugliest moments.

So this notion of reducing America to its ugliest moments is doable with any human being. Forget America. There is not no human whose reputation could survive intact. In other words, no matter how kind, fine, decent the human, if we, if we reduced that person to their ugliest moments, no one would survive. That is the, that is the immaturity and viciousness of the left. And people buy it. They, they don't understand that that could be done to the finest country, the finest people, the finest individuals. The— we are, if we're reduced to our ugliest moments.

Well, by the way, what's so interesting to me about this is, isn't it a leftist mantra when they're talking about people to say, oh, you know, they shouldn't be judged for their worst moment. So you committed—

it's only about the evil. They judge the good by their worst moments and they judge the bad by their best moments.

Exactly. But exactly. So when it comes to someone who's done something wrong, you know, we shouldn't judge them. We should give them another chance.

Wrong, I mean, by what we're talking about, criminal activity. I mean, serious wrongs, violence.

But with America, we can only talk about its worst moments, and that's it.

That— now you'll know why. I don't know if you've ever heard me say this about Howard Zinn's A Popular History of the United States. I've always called it—

it's in the speech, you'll hear it in a few minutes. I talk about it because you introduced me to it in your book Still the Best Hope.

Well, but I don't know if I put in my book my description of it that I regularly offer orally a proctologist's history of the United States.

Wow.

As some of you may know, I am graduating from Harvard in just one week, and I'm very proud of that accomplishment. But I want to tell you about another great college, the King's College in New York City. The King's College is a Christian liberal arts college in New York City's Financial District, providing a disciplined curriculum with a Christian worldview both in person and online. Every program is rooted in a politics, philosophy, and economics core curriculum, which provides students with the framework for understanding the way that the world works and how it's influenced. Because of this, King's graduates are well-rounded critical thinkers. King's faculty pride themselves in not sharing their opinions on topics, but instead teaching the historical context that roots the issues of the day. I guess you can say that King's College students come to earn their opinion. King's faculty don't teach them what to think, but how to think. If you are interested in pursuing your bachelor's career today, please check out the King's College by going to tkc.edu today. Don't just go to college, go to King's.

All right, we'll go on.

You're gone. Well, you'll hear the world from global catastrophe 3 times in the 20th century.

This nation has grown to treat racial, ethnic, and religious minorities with equality and respect compared to other places and times on Earth. This is the nation where people are not constrained by their gender, religion, or class, but can work to achieve a better life. In this nation, we can criticize our government sleep, secure in the knowledge that we will rise the next morning and our country will still respect our rights. We view these things to be our birthright, our permanent and guaranteed condition, but they are not. They exist only because past generations have sacrificed to secure and maintain them. And to our discredit, we have used these blessings not to strengthen our country, but to tear it down. We members of this university and we Americans have shirked our responsibility as the most privileged cohort on Earth. We have remained cringingly silent in the face of corrosive ideas, woke culture that has corrupted our institutions and severed the bonds that hold our country together. The New York Times won a Pulitzer Prize for reporting that the sole purpose of the American Revolution was to preserve slavery. And we remain silent. The Oregon Department of Education asserts that showing your work and finding the right answer in math is white supremacist. And we remain silent. The American Medical Association has stated that the US should remove gender from birth certificates. And we remain silent. Howard Zinn, the author of the most widely read history text in American public schools, said that America has done, quote, more bad than good. And we remain silent. A huge percentage of the donations to the national Black Lives Matter organization have been spent on compensation and benefits, including several extravagant real estate purchases and questionable consulting contracts. And we remain silent. On this campus, we often hear how oppressive America is. Just outside of this church, there was a sign for Israeli Apartheid Week of an upside-down, faded American flag with painted bullet holes in it. And we remain silent. We must not lie to ourselves or to one another by denying that a large reason that we remain silent is that we see personal and professional advantages in doing so. We are ashamed to be American. The shame should be on us.

Great line.

The people who excoriate religion live in a society where their freedoms are based on teachings in the Bible. Many who say that the nuclear family is antiquated grew up in two-parent households. Those who condemn the police as oppressive still summon them when they are in danger. And too many use their right to free speech to advocate suspending it for all who disagree with them. What a litany of dishonesty. We are using our privilege to undermine the very system that has given us that privilege. America despite its failings, is the last great stand on Earth. We must speak up against this now, or our civilization will face a somber reckoning. As President Reagan said, if not us, who? If not now, when?

Thank you. No one clapped.

Really? That's great.

Yeah, no one clapped.

That's awesome. So it's sort of like when the rabbi in Israel said America is the best country.

I know. By the way, you— I mean, I cue off of you in so many ways, Dennis. I could write a book on it. But one of the things that you said to me once, and I think about it all the time— I remember I asked you, you were at a speech and you were booed, and I said, how do you deal with that? This was like a year, year and a half ago. How do you deal with that? And you said, are you kidding me? It is of a health benefit to me when people boo me because it means that I got to them. You— I will never forget you said that. You said it is a health benefit to me when I'm booed. And I thought, what a great way to look at it. And when they didn't clap, I was actually so— I mean, I obviously, I would want them to clap and I would want them to agree, but I was weirdly encouraged. It gave me strength. Yes, good.

I'm glad. No, no, that's really important that you know that. That is exactly how I look at at attacks. It means I got to them. Ignored is the worst in any event. Anyway, it was a terrific speech. One of the questions I have is, were the people who picked you regretful?

Well, this is very interesting. First of all, before I answer that, let me tell you, I remember standing on that podium giving the speech and looking and seeing the reactions of the audience members, like it kind of hitting them that I was giving this really, really bold speech. And that was very interesting to see. To answer your question, my faculty dean came to the speech and it was really lovely of him to come. I appreciated that so much. And he said to me afterwards, you know, good for you for speaking up. Congratulations. So I give them enormous credit. I will tell you, though, So interestingly, the speech that's on YouTube is actually not filmed in Memorial Church. I gave it again in my house, my residential dorm, in front of a group of people, a new group of people, because Memorial Church only recorded an audio of it. When I actually delivered the speech in Memorial Church, you can listen to the audio, it's online and it's linked in the YouTube video. When I gave it, I asked one of my friends to videotape it, and his camera died, unfortunately, halfway through the speech, so I didn't get a video. I asked Memorial Church— this is fascinating— I asked them in the days afterwards if I could come back to film it, and they immediately wrote back saying, "Yes, you know, the church is open for many hours a day. Here are the dates and times you can come in." 5 minutes later, once I get that email, I get another email from a higher-up in Memorial Memorial Church saying, oh, I'm so sorry, actually those dates don't work for the building. So I called her and I said, oh, okay, those dates don't work for the building, can I come in another day? And she said, well, actually you have to get approval to film from the Harvard Communications and Media Department. Okay, well, that's different than the building not being available. So I go, I contact the Communications Department, and they finally responded to me and said, we have nothing to do with this, this has to do with Memorial Church, you know, go back to them. So I went back to them and then they said, well, we actually have a no filming policy. So I just went, okay, I'll, you know, I'll get a group of people and I'll redo it in my residential house. Isn't that interesting though, that there were 3 different reasons why I couldn't go back?

And well, if they had a no filming policy, why did they allow your friend to start filming while you spoke originally?

Right.

All right, they have a no filming policy like I have a no filming policy, and it's, it's absurd. It doesn't matter. I mean, obviously it works out, but it's just an interesting anecdote. Look, I, I will say, and I, I, I repeat, it is to Harvard's credit that you were chosen, that the dean came, that the dean saluted you. Uh, as I say, in, in the general moral cesspool and intellectual wasteland of the Ivy League colleges, I think Harvard is the least offensive.

I would agree. Yes.

I don't know if that will— I don't know if that will continue. I mean, there's no way to know, as they have a more radicalized student body, and their movement toward diversity is not likely to increase the number of conservatives. Though I told you, and this is very touching to me, a very young woman, younger than you, came to a speech of mine in LA just about 10 days ago and said she was going to Harvard. And of course I put her in touch with you, and now you're in touch. And it will be very, very interesting to monitor her loneliness, her aloneness, not loneliness, her aloneness at Harvard.

Right.

Because I think it will increase in terms of those who hold our values. So you do have, and I'm delighted to focus on these aspects of your life here. So you have a wonderful announcement about you and Salem.

I do. Yes, that was the announcement that you were asking me about at the beginning. And I'm sorry to our listeners, I had to just say the college graduation thing because it's— I'm packing up, it's all over my room. Anyways, the, the, the great big announcement is that today I signed a 3-year deal with the Salem Media Group, which of course is the media group that, um, does this podcast and does Dennis's shows. And it is a three-pronged, three-year deal. The first prong is that I'll be doing a one-hour TV show for them on the weekends with their new TV network, which is very exciting. Prong number two is that I will be guest hosting a few times a month for the Salem Talent. Anytime you or Hugh Hewitt or Mike Gallagher are out sick, on vacation, need a substitute, host, I will be filling in, which I'm so excited about because Dennis, when I filled in for you this past summer, it was the highlight of my year and the honor of my life. And then the third prong is that I'll be doing my own podcast in addition to this one. So you will be hearing a lot from me, dear viewers, and I'm very, very excited to work with Salem. They've just been lovely.

So let me, let me reflect on this for a moment. With everybody. First of all, it's incredible for anybody. This is very rare stuff, but it's even more so for somebody Julie's age. But I— not but, I keep saying but when I sometimes— I'm not contradicting what I first said. There's no but. I want to add a thought. This is for Julie, by the way. All of you listening or watching are welcome to hear this, but this is to Julie specifically. So this is what is going to happen. You have been given an extraordinarily fine brain, or better, mind. Brain— I don't know how much brain matters. Mind matters more, but it doesn't matter. You have been given a wonderful mind, and you've been given the gift of an original mind. You see things others don't see. I think I have such a mind, and I regard it as a gift, so I have no problem saying it. I'm not bragging. What will happen is, because I know this from my own life, because of this, what you just signed, you will be forced to plumb the depths of your own mind on a regular basis. And that's fantastic, because even if one is given this mind, an original mind, if you're not forced to come up with thoughts, you won't.

You know, that's one of the things that I notice about you, Dennis. I mean, even when we just have lunch, you're so funny. You have theories on everything. We could be sitting at lunch and I'm, you know, talking about the way that I use my fork, and you go, I have a theory on that. And it shows you that you are seriously— you're just constantly going there. And as you said, you know, reaching into the depths of your mind, right?

But there's no question I do that naturally. You're right, I would do it about the fork. But yes, you— when you're forced, it's like if I didn't have deadlines on books, my natural desire to just surf the internet with, with my hobbies would, would always win. So being forced— this is true for everybody— put yourself in a circumstance, in a situation where you're forced to produce, and you'll produce. Very few people produce without, without coercion, right?

So, well, that's one of the things I've learned in school.

That's right. Yes, that's right. I fully understand that despite my antipathy to most schools. In your case and in some others, that is exactly what is correct. So you have already tasted the life on just a few occasions of a national talk show. There is nothing in the world like it, that you sit and you talk to millions of people is almost miraculous. I never lose sight of the miraculous nature. But also, there's a tremendous amount of learning from the callers.

Yes.

I, by the way, I'm going to give you a piece of public advice because I could write a book on being a good talk show host. I really— I maybe I should. Because I, I hear other shows and I, I hear terrible mistakes that, that could be easily solved and make the show better. Don't— having just said how much I have learned from callers, I am equally adamant about not taking calls just because they're there. They have to be a good call. and you sometimes just don't know in advance. Just seeing the topic doesn't guarantee a good call. I let go of the caller the moment a good point was made and I don't think it's going to be important to keep the person on more. I regard a time on a talk show like Manhattan real estate. It's exceedingly valuable Don't waste it. And I'm just telling you that. I'll tell you one other trick that I tell anyone who goes into talk radio. The fact that you see people calling, you'll see the lines lit on your board, does not mean you're doing well. It is effortless to get calls. Just start talking about guns or abortion or 10 other subjects, and you could be a dummy and get calls. So it's very tempting to think, oh, I got a lot of calls, I did a good show. The relationship between a lot of calls and good show or fewer calls and bad show, there is no direct relationship. So I'm just giving you an interesting insight as you embark in this great career.

What advice, Dennis, do you have for me? And I think this is very applicable to our listeners. So sometimes I think about— you are so good at the way that you phrase things. You are very diplomatic and nuanced with your assertions. But you also, you know, sometimes you hear people and they're inserting too many buts, or they're adding, you know, too many things to try to make their point nuanced. How do you— because it's so— I mean, I gained such an appreciation for this when I was on your show this summer and then when I sub-hosted for you. There's so much pressure. You know, you're there, you're on air, you want to get your point across. Sometimes you have the producer in your ear going, you know, 30 seconds, get your point out. But of course, as we all know all too well, when you are a conservative you have to be so careful with what you say because they will pick it apart in a way that they will not do with someone on the left. So how do you, in your mind, or what, what are some tricks you have with how to phrase things? Well, and again, this is very applicable to our, to our listeners because just in everyday conversation we experience this as conservatives.

People don't know how important and intelligent a question that is. I regard every show and— or even every speech, because I'm monitored all the time— and I regard, let's say, every show as a chess game. It takes that much mental energy to do it right, to say things with strength and conviction and clarity, but not say them in a way that those who loathe you can pick you apart. So what I try to do is— and you're right, this applies to everybody because people have to know how to make the case for our wonderful value system and not fall into a trap of saying things that can easily lead to dismissal. I'll give an example because examples are the only way to almost understand any generalization. So I never speak of abortion as murder. I've never once used the word murder. And it's very deliberate because it is not possible to have somebody who is pro-choice hear you once you use the word murder. You have said goodbye. And if I say goodbye to anyone I might want to persuade, of what use is what I said? It's useless. People, people need— I, I never— I'll give you another example, keep staying on the subject of abortion. I never ever, as deeply religious as I am, as rooted in the Bible, as you know, writing 4th volume of my Bible commentary, I never cite anything religious when I talk about abortion. I've never once made a religious argument with regard to abortion. I think that religion is fundamental to America and the West's survival. But I don't— you have to— what you have to do, and this— I do this so instinctively that it's in real time. I'm thinking, did I just say a word that will turn people off automatically? And I avoid them like the plague, as they say.

That is a very good suggestion. You know, it really is about how you position things. I think I've said this before on the podcast, but I want to repeat it, that one of the things that was so Actually, people think that I discovered you through your conservatism. Actually, I first, uh, the first book I ever read of yours was the Torah commentary, even before Still the Best Hope.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yes, because I was, I discovered PragerU. I was very, very taken with their videos and I started listening to your show and then you publicized your Torah commentary. And, and during that time I was thinking to myself, I, I just have to learn more about religion just to be an informed citizen of the world. And so I thought, oh, this, this Torah commentary will be a great introduction. And when I read your preface or the introduction of your book, I remember being so drawn to it because the way that you positioned it was so powerful. You didn't use those kind of turn-offy words for people. Unfortunately, they are turn-offy when you say to young people, Oh, you know, God will save you or save your soul. You know, that, that turns people off. You, you positioned it in such a compelling way. You said, I'm not trying to convert you. I'm not trying to make you a Jew or a Christian or anything. I am simply trying to show you that a world with the values of the Torah and the Bible is better than a world without it. You talked about ethical monotheism. That was your pitch. And it was such a compelling pitch because maybe I would have been turned off if I had read an introduction where you you were using that kind of language, but you didn't. So then when I went into the book, I was thinking about it from that point of view. And not only did you convince me to be an ethical monotheist, but you actually brought me to religion because it was pitched to me in a good way. So that is such a good point. And I can't— I mean, I am proof. I am a testament to it. It is so important to choose your positioning carefully.

All right, compliment alert.

Thank you in advance.

If all, if all of my biblical commentary writing just brought you to our side, so to speak, then it was worth all the work. And I— and you know I mean that. And it's so— it just— and you don't, you don't even have to react, but I— this brings me great joy.

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So yes, that's all of my writing and all of my speaking. I avoid those. I also avoid clichés, generally speaking. That's another— now, some clichés are inevitable. They become clichés because they're true. Most clichés are true. But still, uh, a saying those words, saying whatever the cliché is in non-clichéd ways, is another invitation to people to listen.

Yes.

So hopefully—

well, I'm someone who gets very turned off when I hear someone say something trite. One of the things I hate—

I think I said it right today. I hate trite. Yes.

I I said this to you the other day on the phone, Dennis, when we were talking off the air, and I can't believe I said it because it's so unlike me. We were talking about my Salem deal and I said, Dennis, it sounds so corny, but I just want to make a difference. And the second that came out of my mouth, I wanted to slap myself. I hate that term, make a difference. I mean, it's true. It's true that I want to make a difference, but how many damn times a day do you hear that? I should have rephrased it.

That's funny. When I heard you say that, I did not have the reaction, the severity of the reaction that you had to yourself. By the way, I was going to raise as a topic of our podcast today this, the issue of God and the Bible, ironically, which you just perfectly led a segue to. And that you have come to take them seriously. I just interviewed Yoram Hazony, who's an Israeli, an American who moved to Israel many years ago, and his family's obviously Israeli, Hebrew-speaking. They're also fluent in English. And he's one of the leading conservative thinkers in the world today, and he just wrote a book on conservatism. So he summarized, I always ask people to summarize their ideas, If you can't summarize them, you're not going to win anybody over. You need to be able to say things concisely. Not tritely, but concisely. So he said, yes, so fine, here's conservatism. And he said, it's, let's see, it's religion, nationalism, and economic freedom. And I said, that is exactly what I have argued with the American Trinity. E pluribus unum, In God We Trust, liberty. And he said, that's right. In other words, so he had put in his words exactly what I had been saying for decades, is the American value system, as you know from Still the Best Hope. And so he said religion. I said In God We Trust because I took it from our coins. He said, uh, economic freedom. I said liberty. He said nationalism. And I said e pluribus unum, from many one. That's nationalism. What is the one? The one is the one nation of American. So that's, that's what we stand for. And then I developed the, the discussion with him. The catastrophe of America, and even of many conservatives, is that they thought that they could preserve these values without In God We Trust, without religion, and that, that is not possible. So that's, that's what you now understand, and, and you didn't when you entered college.

Boy, one of the things that has been the most alarming to me is how much people On this campus, and I'm not just trying to pick on Harvard, as we've talked about several times throughout this episode, Harvard is kind of the best of them in regards to the woke stuff. But just people my age in general have such hostility to religion. We talked about this on the last podcast. I remember I said to you, the single biggest indicator of whether or not someone is a good caretaker to my autistic sister is whether or not they're religious. But you notice in that senior speech I gave, One of the things I said was, "The people who excoriate religion live in a society where their freedoms are based on teachings in the Bible." That actually is one of the lines of the speech that I am the proudest of, and that was the most important to me. Because even more than people criticize conservatism, let me tell you, they criticize religion. They say that religious people are simpletons, and that religion is so oppressive, and it's anti-gay, and it's You know, even people— I was having a debate with my friend recently about actually your book, Dennis. I gave him Still the Best Hope. And in that book, you talk a lot about Islam and how it's really become radical and in many parts of the world. And one of my friends said to me, well, you know, the Christians had the Crusades. And, you know, Christians burn people at the stake, so why is Dennis picking on Islam? My point in bringing that up is just to say there is— people always look for the opportunities to excoriate religion. They always look for the opportunities to pick out, just in the same way I said reduce— they reduce America to its ugliest moments. They do the same thing with religion. And I don't know why. This is a question for you. Why are they so threatened by it? Why do they think it's so awful and weird? And I mean, my friends have flat out said to me that they think it's quote-unquote creepy. Why do you think that is?

Well, that's what I've been working on most of my life, because the moment you understand why there's such antipathy to religion, you understand why religion— and I mean good religion, there's the bad Christianity, bad Judaism, bad Islam, bad Buddhism, bad Hinduism. I mean good religion, and specifically I do mean Judeo-Christian. I'll talk about the Islam issue in a moment. The answer is actually in the Garden of Eden story, and I don't care whether people take it literally or not. It's of no interest to me. The serpent speaks to Eve. Eve and says, you know, you should eat from this tree that God told you not to eat from. And remember, the Garden of Eden was paradise—no suffering, no pain, nothing. So why would one want to jeopardize utopia, as it were? Paradise, right? But the serpent made a promise. To Eve that was more important than Paradise. Eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That's the tree's name. The one thing they couldn't do was eat from that tree, and you will be like God, knowing, really determining good and evil. Apparently there is And I say apparently because I don't happen to have this for whatever reason, but there is this characteristic in the human race of a desire to be God in the sense of I determine what is right and wrong. I am 100% convinced that the hysteria over abortion is not over abortion. It is over the idea that I might be wrong. I, the one— I, the woman who want the abortion, that I am wrong by some standard higher than me. That, that is the single greatest infuriating aspect of what religion says. There is a moral transcendent source, and it isn't you. That's, that's the reason for the antipathy.

That's very compelling. I would agree with that. Well, I mean, I, I think the thing that I'm trying to show my friends again is that the thing that I really tried to convey in the speech is that we are the beneficiary beneficiaries of these things that we are trying to tear down. We are all the beneficiaries of Judeo-Christian values. I mean, dear God. And it's just so, it's so, I use that word in the speech, it's so dishonest to me when I see people who are so blind to the fact, to the ways that they've benefited from this, actively trying to harm it. I mean, why do they? It's just preposterous to me.

That's why it's so important for them to depict us as awful, right? There's nothing— there's nothing to give religion credit for because the product called America stinks, right?

Well, I think religion gives people— on this point of why they think we're so awful— religion gives people a framework to understand good and evil. In life, people want to identify heroes and villains. And what leftists do, because they're not religious, because they're secular, they view themselves as the messianic figures, and they view us conservatives as the evil ones. And again, I think that comes from the fact that they're not religious and they don't have a real understanding of good versus evil. You said that to me when you were telling me about why you when you were way younger, why you left the left. Well, you weren't really ever on the left, but why you were convinced that leftism was bad. And you said that they didn't condemn real evil. They did not condemn the evils of communism. And that is totally because of their secularism.

That's correct. I wish I learned that from you. Thank you. Well, you learned it from me, and you will carry it on. To be really personal. Knowing you will is a great comfort to me. That's part of the reason that we do this stuff together, the Dennis and Julie podcast. Who to, who to thunk, huh? Boy, I mean, I imagined I would do a podcast with another human being like you could imagine doing it with a zebra. Let alone somebody half a century younger than me. It's not what I expected.

I was mentioning that I was crying earlier today. I think I was just— I was really thinking about my journey at this school. I was looking back at photos of myself when I was a freshman, and I, um, I had this awful brown hair. Thank God I now have blonde highlights. I don't know why I'm I'm telling you, that's okay. I love that. That was the dominant thing I thought of. But I looked at myself in those photos and I just thought, boy, you had no idea what was ahead. Not just with the COVID but with Harvard.

Oh, what a good point. What a good point.

You had no damn idea. And I remember sitting in Harvard Yard during our convocation and looking up at the big Veritas banner. And it was this weird kind of movie-like moment where I was thinking, what am I going to do with school, what is this going to be like for me? And now I'm going to be sitting at graduation and looking at that same banner and going, holy moly, that was—

it won't be going moly, she'll be doing a more colorful word. Yes, knowing Julie. By the way, I would do the more colorful word in my brain as well, just for the record. It just thought I would I should be honest about that.

I remember cursing in front of you for the first time, Dennis. We were at Shabbat dinner, and of course I've listened to every single one of your recordings you've ever done, and you talked a lot about how cursing in public, we shouldn't do that, just not right, good manners. And I remember we were at dinner and I said, holy blank, and then I turned to you and went, oh my God, I can't believe I just said that in front of Dennis Prager. And then you turned to me and you said, yeah, you're right, it is a holy blank moment. And you said, I don't care what people do in private as long as they do it in public—

don't do it right. Which we had a great podcast on that whole subject of what people say in private, which is a good reminder to all of you that these things are not dated. It's like my fireside chat, people binge on them. And I hope you'll binge on the Dennis and Julie podcast and and send them to others. So, you know, obviously where to find us because you're listening. You can view it as well on YouTube if you just search for it on YouTube. You could see the visual, but it is, uh, it works either way. It doesn't matter as long as we get these ideas to more people. So I would ask all of you to send this along and each week double the number of people who hear this stuff. So what's your, uh, your website again for people to contact you with questions or comments?

julie-hartman.com. That's easy.

H-A-R-T, folks, not H-E-A-R-T. H-A-R-T-M-A-N. Well, that's right. It is a, it is a true joy. I am off to Alaska. You haven't been there, right?

I've never been there, Dennis. You have to send me lots of photos and you're giving a speech, right?

Yeah. A few speeches. Yeah. It's the only reason I go anywhere. Right.

You know, Dennis has been to all 50 states. He told me that on the phone the other day.

That's right. And so has your dad. Yes. And he's— which further raised him in my estimation. There are very few of us. Yes. Now, by the way, as I also told you, I've spoken in 48. I've been to all 50, but I have not spoken in either of the Dakotas. So if any of you were listening, I really want to get there and give a speech.

We have to get you there.

That's right. Exactly. All right, Julie, it was great. See you all next week.

Yep. And goodbye to my dorm room, you guys. For those of of you watching, you'll be seeing me in a different set.

Oh, bye dorm room. Everybody wants the same thing.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning.

You can only save one.

Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality If morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.