Dennis & Julie: Darkness and Death

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello everybody, I'm Dennis Prager and I'm with Julie Hartman. And that's why it's called Dennis and Julie. There is no question this broadcast, podcast, show, program is unique. There's no doubt in my mind.

Mine either. And we're on week 41.

That's right. By the way, is it brand new, the music, or is it— didn't we use it last week?

We used it last week, but we didn't explain why there was new music. So I got a lot of emails from people saying WTF, but without the F.

Really said that? What, and what did you, what, what did you explain?

Well, we didn't explain it last week, so we'll explain it now that apparently we have a trademark or licensing problem with the music. Sean would be able to explain it better, but, but we can't use it, um, without getting it approved.

There was a time where you had, I think it was called fair use. If you use something for like a minute, you didn't need copyright permission. The deterioration of America through lawsuits, it's the unspoken curse in modern America, in contemporary America of the last 50 years. The lack of spontaneity, the lack of common sense, We used a theme for 30 seconds and, and the lawyers at our syndicator are afraid we'll be sued. I don't think they're right. I think the lawsuit would be laughed at by just about any judge.

Maybe not anymore though, and especially because we're conservative. I mean, I have a pretty cynical view about these things. They may try to just put up roadblocks unnecessarily for us.

Okay, well, whether it would be politically inspired or legally inspired, independent of politics, I agree with you totally about the legal profession. The license we have to use applies to terrestrial radio, so my AM stations, but not to what? To television.

It's ridiculous.

Okay, anyway, that's why— but we want to—

we're going to fight to get it back.

No, no, but this is a lovely thing.

It is a lovely thing.

Yes, I'm very happy with it.

It was made just for us by one of our call screeners' husbands. Husbands, I said it plural like she has multiple. She has one, just to clarify.

And what is his name? Because I know him, and I'm— that's right, Richard Friedman. Composer. Yeah, absolutely. So I have a super serious opening because it's— it's— I'll tell you how much it's hounded me. I go to sleep with a completely clear mind.

I know you do.

I do. My, my most worrisome thought when I go to bed is, what can I do to improve my audio system? Okay. Or is there a new lens out for my camera? That's what I go to bed thinking about. But not last night, because the night before I learned that that day, 2 days ago, a very, very beloved relative of mine, my cousin Dr. Shalom Mailer in New Jersey, his wife drowned in a, in a bay. She's a great swimmer. She's in great shape in her 50s. I mean, as a young woman, and it just— it is hard to shake me up. It's really hard. I take things in stride. I'll tell you how much it affected me last night. That's the night, the second night. I went to bed and I was in twilight and I thought, oh, I dreamt that.

That happens to me a lot.

Yes, really.

Oh yes, about good things and bad things. I think that I dreamt it.

Yeah, I've never had that, but you say you do. I have it frequently, even for good things.

Yes, well, also just for, for weird things. Like the other day I had a dream that my sister was married to someone other than her husband. And when I woke up, I'm not kidding, for the first 10 minutes I thought it was true.

Of course that's true.

And I went, oh wait, no, that's not true, right?

So anyway, uh, you thought you dreamt it. Yeah. So I raised this because I wanted to make, uh, first of all, her name was Elaine Mailer. She was a princess of a human being. A phenomenal wife, a phenomenal mother, phenomenal worker. Her company loved her. She, she was just one of these gifts in the world. So I wish they, they would perform an autopsy. Orthodox Jews generally don't allow for autopsies.

Really?

Yeah, I know you wouldn't know that. The, the theory, and I have respect for it, but I, I still think it's too strict. Is that the human body, even dead, deserves respect and should not be mutilated in any way. In Israel, after terror attacks, for example, there are special Orthodox Jewish groups that go and they find an arm, a hand, a leg to bury them properly. Oh wow, isn't that interesting?

That makes sense. You know, I, I've thought for most of my life it's a really grisly thing to be autopsied or to be cremated. I just feel like it's—

yeah, I'm not for cremation.

It disrespects the dignity of the body, in my view.

Yeah, well, their argument, and it's not silly, is why is it disrespectful to cremate the body but not to bury it? Well, yeah, but not to have you know, gnats, gnawed, or—

Right. I mean, yes, either way it's grisly, but—

Right. But, but I'm with you. And, but it doesn't make sense that a woman who was very fit and is a proficient swimmer in a bay, it's not even the ocean. There were no— there's no current. There are no waves. And she drowned.

People, I mean, yes, it does seem a bit odd.

She probably had a heart attack.

Or a leg cramp. I mean, and I know from being a swimmer— oh yeah, oh yeah. When I played water polo, I remember there was one time in a game where I was swimming down to the goal with the ball, and all of a sudden it felt like my leg just snapped, like my calf snapped. And I, like, I lost control of the ball and just grabbed it. It hurt so badly, and the ref stopped the game. And I've— I mean, It's never happened to me before. And I was convinced that I like broke a bone or something. Literally, I thought my leg snapped in half. And it was a cripplingly painful leg cramp. So that can happen.

It doesn't sound terrible, cramps, but they can be terrible.

Oh my God. Especially when you're swimming and you need, you know, you need to have full control of, of your limbs.

No kidding.

So yeah.

So, well, I, I could have happened to go from the the sublime to the less sublime. It's not ridiculous, but I have great respect for water polo players. I can't believe what you guys do.

You have no idea.

I'm sure I don't. I'm sure I don't.

It is really, really, uh, anyway, I just want to—

before I leave that topic, I just want to note I raised it in part, A, because it's preoccupying me, but B, because the fragility of life. She went down with colleagues for a couple of days to Florida. She lived in New Jersey, and, and they rented a yacht for the day, went into the bay, and they all went swimming.

And who—

it's like unbelievable that it would happen. It's like if you hear someone's killed by a drunk driver, it's horrible, but you understand it, right?

I mean, I do understand it because swimming is a different ballgame than other things. I— you can be a really good— and my mom tells me this all the time because she knows I'm a good swimmer, but she reminds me whenever I'm in a pool or when I'm in the ocean, always be careful. Make sure that you have people around you. Make sure if you're in the ocean, there's a lifeguard.

She went ahead of everybody. She swam ahead of everyone.

I don't, I don't even do that, and I am a competent swimmer.

Because, by the way, I think people would find it interesting— give a brief summary of your competent swimming. Oh gosh, you're more than a competent swimmer. You, you were a statewide—

I was champion. Well, it's funny because, um, I— there's this thing at Harvard where I think your junior year you can read the admissions notes that people gave for you, like the, the way that they annotated your application, right? And obviously, part of my application, when they ask you for your extracurricular activities, I would put that I was a swimmer, and then I put my events and my swim times. And so my junior year, I decided to take advantage of this offering and, and look at the application and the, the admissions people's annotations. And on the part of my application where I talked about swimming One of the admissions people wrote, what a humble girl she is. We looked it up and she's like the second fastest freestyler in all of LA County and she didn't even put that on her application.

Why didn't you?

Well, I didn't know. So I had no idea. So I was sitting there reading and I'm like, I was the second fastest, whatever it was, freestyler in that event in Los Angeles. It was news to me.

So by the way, is that what you did, freestyle?

Yes, sprints. Sprint freestyle.

What is most determinative of whether you win? Because it's all within split seconds. So is it you jumped exactly at the gun? Is it the turnaround at the other end? What distinguishes a champion from the guy in fourth place?

You have— I mean, obviously you have to be a competent swimmer and you need to be able to swim fast once you're in the water. But the way that you win as a sprinter is that you need to master the details. So it's, it's a very good point that you raised. I worked so much on my dive because right when you hear the beep go off, you gotta get off the block. You can't wait a second. You gotta dive into the water immediately. On your flip turns, I remember they said you have to be very tight with your streamline. Like you can't, you know, be loose with it because then it will—

And you're underwater.

And you're underwater. Also, a big thing is you shouldn't breathe that much, which made sprinting really hard. When I did the 50 freestyle—

Aren't you supposed to breathe every time your face comes out of the water, which is every stroke?

Oh no, my coach will get mad at me for breathing because it slows you down.

So he or she wanted you to keep your face in the water?

Oh yeah, it makes you faster. So when I would do 2 laps of swimming, my coach would say, you can breathe 1 time.

Pro-lap?

No, in the whole event, the 2 laps. 1 time you can breathe.

You're kidding me.

No wonder I hated swimming. People ask me why I hated it. You can't breathe. You can't talk to anyone. You still stare— excuse me— at the bottom of the pool.

Like, I would try to physically—

it's terrible. Sorry to people who like swimming. I didn't enjoy it competitively.

So that, by the way, that does raise an interesting question. Did your colleagues Like it?

My colleagues, my teammates.

Teammates. Yeah, that's right.

You've been in the professional world for way too long.

I have. You're entirely right.

My teammates, I don't know. I mean, I would say that most of them didn't, but I was in another category. I hated it. I just, I, I loathed it. It was like I would be in the car driving to practice and I would get this knot in my stomach.

Like, that's how I feel before my workouts.

I know it is. I can, I can relate to your feeling a lot. I had good coaches and I had good teammates, but it's so, it's so monotonous and it's physically extremely uncomfortable. And I felt like it was just, I prefer team sports.

By the way, who's it?

So individual.

Is a tall, uh, swimmer at an advantage?

I mean, I would imagine, I, I would suspect that tall people are, have an advantage in every sport. So yes.

But well, they don't as a jockey in horse racing.

True. And maybe not as a wrestler.

That I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. But, but so I think they did. But really, it comes from your athletic ability.

You do every stroke. Could you do the breaststroke? I could do the butterfly.

I could do every stroke. But you specialize when you get to a certain level.

Why do you specialize?

Because you want to get— you want to be the best at your event.

And that's what you were best at.

I was best at sprint.

Did you ever do the butterfly?

As punishment during practice, when I would mess up on a set, they would have me do 10 laps of butterfly.

You're kidding. 10 laps?

Oh, sometimes 20. Oh yeah. If you messed up on a set, if you, you know, they told you to do—

Very few human beings can do 10 laps of butterfly. Oh, most people can't do one lap.

I had to sometimes do 20 when I messed up.

Your, your muscular development must have been incredible.

Yes.

Just to be able to do the butterfly, forget the freestyle.

You know, it's, it's interesting that you say that because I was getting a physical about 2 weeks ago. And one of the things that I said to my doctor was, even when I go through periods of not exercising and eating a lot, there's an upper limit that my weight reaches, and it won't go over that limit. Whereas other people, if they don't exercise, or if they eat a lot, they will continue to gain weight, you know, in a ceaseless upward trajectory. And she actually said to me, that is— your situation, Julie, is not uncommon for people who were athletes at a young age, and especially elite athletes, because, again, I don't know the proper medical terms. So something about my muscular development and my metabolism has, I guess, served me well later in life, because it means that I don't gain a lot of weight all at once.

What are races in? So there's butterfly, breaststroke, freestyle, and backstroke. Backstroke. And so the back is like a back— a back crawl.

Oh yes, yes.

Not, not a backstroke like this.

Yes, yeah.

So there's no sidestroke. Did you ever— did you ever learn the sidestroke? Do you even know what I'm talking about?

What is sidestroke?

You're on your side.

There is no side.

Oh, that's funny, because when I was a kid, we were taught the sidestroke. It was called the sidestroke.

That, see, that sounds so fun.

And that was, it was my favorite by far.

That sounds so fun because you can keep your head out of the water.

Oh, you're right.

You can talk to people.

That's exactly right. Well, I didn't talk to people, but it kept your head out of water and you were basically in bed, you know, just lying on your side.

Yeah, trust me, folks.

Stroking away.

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I don't know how you did 20 laps of butterfly.

Oh, it was miserable.

Did a certain type become butterfly? Because that's the toughest, I think.

You know, it's interesting. I didn't pay attention. I'd have to think about that more if there were certain body types or—

Because I always ask that about orchestras.

Oh, that's interesting.

Oh, it fascinates me. It's very interesting. When I conduct orchestras, I have a whole thing, a series of things I do. People generally really love it, and they should. It's a lot of fun. I interview people in each section. So for example, when I go over the oboists, I will say, are you out of your mind? And everyone in the orchestra knows why I asked the question. Nobody in the audience does, but everybody in the orchestra does. And because I conduct, I, I know the question. Because oboists— that it's called a double reed instrument, so there are two thin reeds that make— that you blow into, as it were, but it's more pressure than blowing. And there, if you watch any oboist, you, you will see their whole face gets red. So all this pressure up in the brain, they think that oboist are all out of their minds. It's very funny. And oboists are not insulted if you ask them, are you nuts? So, and people in the orchestra think trumpeters have a certain temperament, violinists have a certain— it's very interesting. It's fun.

It is. So, you know, I will say a lot of the swimmers who I encountered, it was very easy to make them laugh. Like I was the jokester on the team and I would make my teammates just crack up, die laughing, you know, when we would get out of the pool or, and I thought for a long, and I noticed it by the way in school, you know, if one of my classmates happened to be a swimmer, I cracked a joke, she would laugh much easier than other people. And I spent a lot of time thinking about why. And I really think it's because when you spend all day staring at the bottom of the pool, you have a very low tolerance for, or for humor.

Right.

You know, like you— in other words, anything will crack you up. So if you ever want to feel funny, get a group of swimmers around you.

What was your timing? Do you remember any of your timings? And how many laps would you do?

So I would do— so you do 4 events in a meet. Every swimmer can only do 4 events. So I would do the 50 freestyle individual.

How many laps is that?

2. The 100.

So that's a real sprint.

I mean, that's, that's, that's the one where you're not supposed to breathe. Only one time can you breathe.

And when is one time? Any— your choice. Anytime in the middle?

Yes. Well, I mean, they suggest towards the end because obviously that's when you're most depleted. Most depleted. Yes. So you have to keep your head straight, like looking at the bottom of the pool, because if you turn your eye open Well, I had goggles on. Yeah.

Oh yeah, that's right. You had goggles on.

But you know what? Another thing.

You cried into your goggles. You told me.

I would cry into my goggles. Yes. When I was younger in swim practices, I was so miserable doing that. Oh my God. It's like.

It is tempting to ask why you did it since you hated it so much, but I won't.

Well, first, no, it's, no, you can ask whatever you want. The first, I'll, I'll answer first by, um, the events thing and then I'll tell you why. And then I want to go back to your cousin. Because I, I don't want to just zoom past.

No, no, I moved on. It's okay. You don't have to.

No, but I do.

All right. Okay.

I do have something to say about it. And also, that's worth talking about more. We shouldn't just zoom past it. But so to answer your question about the events, I would do 50 freestyle, 100 freestyle, and then I would do relays. So 2 individual events, 2 relays.

And the relay is 50 each person?

No, it could be 100. Yards or 4 laps each person. Or so I would do 50-yard freestyle, it's 2 laps individual. 100-yard freestyle, 4 laps individual. And then I would do those 2 again for relays.

Okay.

And, um, by the way, it—

how many are in a relay? 4?

Yes.

Right. So it is the fastest, the first, the last, or it's irrelevant? How did they choose the order?

Interestingly, it's about— see, this is— it was so good that you brought this temperament thing up. They would choose it primarily on the temperament of the swimmer. So the person who could handle the most pressure would go last in the relay.

Oh, fascinating.

Because— so I would often go last in the relay. Really? Yes, because my coach thought I could handle the most pressure. So, and it was— I mean, that is That is brutal because sometimes the relays are also at the end of the meet. So a lot of the times teams are vying for points and the relays give you a lot of points. So when you're, when you're the final leg of a relay, and especially when it's a sprint relay and it gets down to the millisecond, it is, it is a lot of pressure.

I would think so. Does it, did it ever happen that you would think, I doubt if you ever express it to a member of the team. Oh, if only so-and-so hadn't screwed up.

Oh, of course. And I'm sure people thought that of me. Yes.

Really?

Yeah.

Do you ever say it?

No, I would never say it.

Not you personally. Did anybody ever say it privately later?

No. I think there was this understanding of—

And blew it.

They wouldn't say it in a gossipy way. They would say, well, you know, she was a bit slow on that leg of the race. But there was this understanding that swimming is such a hard sport. It's so much pressure. It goes down to the millisecond. You can't control everything. So, so people wouldn't get mad at one another.

Oh, they didn't?

No.

Okay. That's really what I was thinking.

Yes.

Did you ever inherit that your team was behind and win?

I think so.

It's hard to remember now, but I'm sure that's mind-blowing. How about the other? Did you ever inherit the team was winning and lose?

Probably.

I mean, that's got to be the worst.

I swam for so long.

It's in football terms. You have a— you have a— your team depends on your field goal to win and you blow it.

I'm sure. I'm sure I did that.

I mean, team sports has a lot of pressure because— because the team relies on every one of you.

It's true. But I actually think a sport like swimming has more because it's individual within a team.

Yeah.

So it's really, you know, with an actual team sport like soccer, if someone made a bad pass, yes, they made a bad pass, but also there were defenders behind them that could have picked up the slack. So it is more of like a right group blame.

Yeah.

But in swimming, you know who messed up.

Yes, you do. All right. So what did you want to add about the my cousin?

Well, first of all, I want to say I'm sorry I told you that off the air, but it's just—

Yeah, I know. Thank you.

It is so tragic.

Well, the tragedy is— it is so tragic. He, you know, at 58 or whatever his age is, 59, 60, to be left alone. I mean, he loved her. I know this.

Do they have kids?

Yeah, they have terrific, terrific kids, by the way.

How old?

Early 20s.

Oh God, I mean, obviously I'm in my ear— I can't imagine losing my mom.

Oh, that— since we're on dark subjects, let me just tell you, when people speak about, let's say Stalin killed, you know, 20 to 40 million, all right, which is inconceivable to us. We can't conceive of a million anything.

It's true.

But people don't talk about the residue, let's say it's— let's compromise at 30 million. Every one of the 30 million had friends and relatives.

Yes.

The, the pain is so enormous, we, we can't begin.

It's a little unrelated, but you'll see why I'm bringing it up. I— one of the most powerful parts of your Torah commentary is when you— I think Alan Dershowitz said it, you cited a quote that he gave, or maybe it was someone else who said, you know, how many of you, they were speaking to a Jewish group, and they said, how many of you in the audience, you know, have a relative who was affected by the Holocaust? And maybe half of the audience raised their hands. And then I think this person said, you know, how many of you have relatives that had cancer or died prematurely, or, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And everyone in the audience raised their hand. And then that person said, Can you imagine how many cures for cancer went up in flames, you know, in the gas chambers? In other words, it's not just that those people died and that their friends and family suffered, but so many people are affected.

Yes.

So the thing that I was going to bring up, because I struggle with this a bit, I mean, I'm, I'm lucky that I haven't known a lot of people in my life who have died. The one that I can I mean, obviously my— I have grandparents who've died, but the most shocking one was one of my mom's closest friends died when I was a senior in high school and she had cancer and it was just a really fast and terrible death. And she was just such a lovely woman and it really shook me. And I remember that night that she died, I was just crying and crying and crying in my bed. And my mom said to me, And she obviously, my mom was devastated too because it was one of her best friends. And my mom said, you know, as horrible as it sounds, you're not gonna feel this way forever, Julie. In time it's going to hurt less. And it's true because now that I'm 4 or 5 years away from, she died in 2018, it's 2022. I don't think about her as much when I talk to you right now about her dying. Yes, I feel sad, but it's not the same pang that I had that night after, that night of her death. And I have to tell you, I'm a bit uncomfortable with that. I know that it's normal that time—

Oh God, but it makes me feel awful because, right, is it any less tragic 4 years later?

Yes. And am I a bad person for not absorbing the gravity?

So there is an answer.

What is it?

Well, first of all, you, you know that the tragedy remains a tragedy, right? That's not lost. It's not like the pain is diminished, but the, the, the knowledge that it was tragic and sad has not diminished at all. Number two, if we didn't have that, we'd all be— we'd all be killing ourselves. Yeah, it's true. Either God or nature has provided this mechanism. I'll give you a perfect example. I mean, I think of this a lot. You hear of an air crash in, let's say, in Korea, and you know it's a tragedy, you know, 60 people on board killed, okay? But obviously, if it's in Chicago, you feel it more. And if it's in your city, you feel it more. And if it's people flying to your wedding, you feel it incredibly much. That's the way we're made. And if we weren't made that way, if every tragedy hit us equally, we would all be suicidal. We could not get out of bed. So there, there is the same, same, same with the numbers issue. You know, Stalin said, which is a very cynical point, one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. Have you ever heard that?

Through you.

Okay. It's a very powerful statement and a very terrible statement, but there's truth to it, isn't it?

I just want to pause for a minute and say, isn't it a bad thing that I never heard that quote prior to encountering your work?

It is a bad thing.

Never heard it in school.

Okay. I can give you 50 worse things.

I know. The Gulag Archipelago.

Well, yeah. Well, did you know who Pol Pot was?

I did, because I went to Cambodia and I loved history.

How many of your classmates at Harvard heard of Pol Pot?

Very few.

Okay, how many of them heard of preferred pronouns? Okay, it's a rhetorical question. So it's really mind-boggling what, what do people learn. If you don't know about Pol Pot, then you have not learned contemporary history. The butcher of Cambodia. I mean, it's— how many of them even— how many of them know about the Rwandan genocide?

I actually have a story to tell you about that, but I want to, before I tell it, cuz we go off on exit ramps so often. You were saying about the statistic, uh, quote. So I didn't mean to derail you.

No.

Yes. I only raised it in that we, we have to have built-in protectors. Time is a built-in protector.

I heard you say that on your radio show, that if we all had perfect empathy, we would, we would, right? We'd go out of our minds.

Yes.

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By the way, we don't have any empathy. We have sympathy. You, you can't empathize with what you didn't go through. It's not possible. You think you can, but you can't. I know that, and I think about it a lot, people who have been tortured. And ever since I was in high school, I thought about people tortured.

I have nightmares about it.

Oh, I'm sure you do. I think I know, I know your soul. Uh, but I, I can't empathize with someone being tortured. I, I can sympathize, painfully sympathize even, but not empathize. Empathize means you know what they felt. You don't.

Mm-hmm.

It's like I can't empathize with childbirth.

You know, I'll, I'll tell you another thing in the realm of suffering that I struggle with, and maybe I shouldn't, is, well, the first one is this, this idea of, um, the gravity of the loss wearing off. That makes me uncomfortable. But also, you know, when I have nightmares about people being tortured, or when I think about other horrible things that have happened throughout history, I really wanna get away from it. Like I try to do cognitive behavioral therapy and not in my brain to myself and not think about it. And then I feel guilty about not wanting to think about it.

Right. Because I owe it to them.

We owe it to them to think about it. Right. And there obviously nowadays so many people.

That's why it's called Dennis and Julie. I'm not kidding. I know your heart. I know your soul so well. Most people, whether your age or mine, don't think that way. I owe it, which I feel we do. Yes, I, I read so many books on the Holocaust, mostly because I felt I owed it to them. And the same with Gulag. And, and, and I, and I visited virtually every site of, of the, the genocides, including Cambodia, as you did.

Oh my God, it was, it was just awful seeing the Killing Fields in Cambodia.

It was, yes.

And especially, you know, in Cambodia, by the way, these are all auto-genocides.

People don't realize that. Do you know the Holocaust—

good point—

is, is almost the only genocide of the other? I mean, there are— look, I know these things pretty well. So the Russian killing of the Ukrainians is the other. Russians and Ukrainians are not the same. The Germans of the Jews is, and the Hutus of the Tutsis. But Cambodia is completely their own. China is completely their own. Russia is completely their own. It's really the biggest, with the exception of the Jews, the, the biggest genocides were of their own. The Turks and the Armenians and other, it's a different one. But it, it's really astonishing when you think about it.

It is. I wanna tell you before I forget about this Rwandan genocide story that I have. So I was in an Uber about a year or two ago, and I love, as we've talked about on this program, I love chatting with Uber drivers and, and getting to know them because I have curiosity, unlike a lot people these days. And so I said, you know, where are you from? And he said, Rwanda. And I said, oh my gosh, you know, I said, I hope this isn't an impertinent question or getting too personal, but I can imagine that you had family members who were involved in the genocide, or perhaps, you know, you were, because he said he immigrated like 10 years ago. And I said, I just want to ask you about that experience if you have a connection to it. And we were at a red light. And I'll never forget this. He turned around and he looked at me and he said, I have been an Uber driver for— he said he again came to America 10 years ago. I've been an Uber driver for 6 years. And I've told hundreds, perhaps thousands of people that I'm from Rwanda. And you are the first person to ask me about the genocide. That's what he said to me. He said, no one has asked me that before because no one knows about it.

I'm quiet because I have nothing to say because I so know this to be true.

People don't know. People— when I told my friends that I was going to Cambodia, and by the way, I'm not trying to blame them. I didn't know about the Cambodian genocide until I was traveling there and did my research, but people don't know about that at all. And that, I mean, a third of the population died and this was 50 years ago.

That's right.

But to your point, we know about pronouns. It's ridiculous.

The education in this country, it's not possible to overstate how bad it is. That's my opinion.

You're right.

I would like to know, though, be very interesting how many kids are homeschooled through high school and can tell you about Rwanda. I'd be curious. I want to be fair in my critique. I know that they got a better education. I know that for a fact. But I still wonder if Cambodia and the others are taught.

I used to be so against homeschooling. The idea of homeschooling when I was younger because I thought, God, it must be so lonely. And now—

well, they're not lonely. Yeah, that, that's a misconception. I totally understand the misconception, right? They have— they probably have more close friends than—

how?

Because they don't homeschool alone. Homeschool doesn't mean you're home all day alone. That's what people think. Oh, with my parents who were teaching me— first of all, most parents can't— I couldn't teach math. It'd be absurd. I'm going to teach you algebra. I'm glad I didn't flunk it.

This is kind of a revelation to me. I was going to say that I was so against it, but now—

No, no, they're with other kids most of the time.

Really?

They go on trips around the world. I remember friends of mine, they homeschooled their kids, and I say, you want to come over next week? I said, no, no, no, we're taking the kids to England with their homeschool group.

That is cool.

That's what they do. So they can do it.

So can you explain? So are there like online agencies that— Yes, I know I really got to do my research.

Yes. And, and they get together, they, they are with others. And some— so for example, if I had a homeschooled kid, they might call on me to give talks on history, fine, or, or politics or religion. But, uh, otherwise, you know, I can't teach math. I can't teach science. They get somebody who can. That's right. Or a parent or an outsource. Absolutely. But my experience with homeschool kids is that they're polite. You know what they are? I'll tell you the thing that, that most hits me when I meet a homeschooled kid, and it like hits me within 30 seconds. They're innocent. They're not cynical.

That's hard to come by.

Jaded. They're jaded at the age of 6. And, and they're— what, by the way, that's what premature sexualization does to a kid. It makes you jaded. There's nothing exciting anymore.

God, you're thinking— I know a lot of people who are jaded. Oh, and I'm 23.

Yes. No, no, your whole generation's jaded.

Every— almost everyone.

Yes, there's no question. I loved the fact I was never naive, but I was innocent. And it—

me too, me too. I'm so grateful that I was. Yeah, I think it's made me a healthier, happier person.

Of course it has.

Oh gosh, thank you, parents.

Yeah, that's right. Well, you wouldn't be today if you were in high school. Robbing children of innocence is the job of, of American schools right now.

I know I've said this on this program before, but it's really sad because I loved my high school when I was there. I mean, there were parts of it that I wasn't crazy about, namely that it was incredibly academically rigorous to the point of absurdity. But overall, I loved it. I loved my friends. I felt like I had phenomenal instruction. Overall, it was a really great experience. And I, when I graduated on May 30th, 2018, I had every intention of being an involved alum and trying, you know, giving money. I mean, I can probably give like $10, but, you know, just over the years really trying to support the school. I got a, uh, a letter in the mail about a week ago from my school soliciting a donation, and I wrote it a note. I put it back in the envelope instead of a check. I put in a note and I mailed it back, and I said just what I said to you: I loved my school, and now I am so disappointed in it. It has changed so dramatically, and I've only been out for 5 years. I've told you this, in many classes, homework doesn't count for a grade, participation doesn't count for a grade because it's supposedly, you know, terrible to force people to participate because some people don't feel comfortable. They teach this radical, you know, gender and racial stuff. They have these healing rooms where if you feel offended or slighted, you get to go to a healing room and like light candles and sing Kumbaya. It's insane. The stuff that I've heard is insane. And it's so weird, Dennis, because it is unrecognizable from the school that I went to.

Is the principal a female?

Yes.

Are most of the teachers?

Yes. But, but that was the case when I was there and it was not this bad.

That's correct.

Another thing is that in many classes you can retake tests. Let me tell you something. If, if we had like a little fairy come to us in during the time that I was at the school and say in 5 years from now students will be able to retake tests, We would've laughed. We would've, I mean, it would, it would've been inconceivable. So anyway, I wrote that in the note and I mailed it back to them.

That's amazing.

I mean, retake tests.

What? 'Cause you didn't do well?

Yes. 'Cause you didn't do well. And it's equity to allow people to retake tests.

I, I, I will need a healing room.

Oh my God. When I was at the school and, but, and again, I'm grateful for this. It's made me so much a more competent, better worker, adult person. When I took tests at that school, you were done, if the period was done at 2 o'clock, and you were, you know, still writing, they would like pry the test out of your hands. They were strict. They were really strict. And I'm so grateful because now doing this job, which requires a lot of research and deadlines, like, I know I can handle it. I can't imagine what people, you know, young students are learning. They're just going to be crippled later in life.

Well, it's a very interesting question. In the land of the blind, the one-sided man, the one-eyed man is king. So if nobody has standards that they have to meet, how— why are you crippled? The society will be crippled.

Yeah, well, it's—

but none, none of you were competent, so everybody's equally incompetent.

It's, it's a good point because I remember someone saying to me, oh, you know, real life is going to hit people in the face when they graduate from these schools and have to go into the workforce.

That was true.

That was true. But now it's not because a lot of the real life places adopt this stuff.

Yes, correct. So, well, United Airlines announced a year ago it's reserving half of its spaces in, in flight school to women, either women alone or women and minorities. So they acknowledge we're not accepting candidates based on ability. We're so— whereas right now, and you know how much I fly almost every week of the year, I don't give a damn if the pilot is a female, but 5 years from now I will.

I have to tell you, Dennis, it's a really depressing thought, and I kind of can't believe I'm saying it. I have really started to fear that I am going to see the demise and the downfall of the United States in my lifetime. I don't know if it's gonna be around when I'm 40 or 50.

That's right. I know.

If we keep going down this road, it will not.

Well, if we keep going down this road, there will be two United States.

Can you believe, like, I think, and by the way, I'm not trying to pity myself. I was born into a, incredible situation compared to 99% of other people in the world. But isn't it weird that to think like, this is the time in history that I was born?

Yes, yes, I feel for you. I, I, I've raised this with you before. I don't know who I feel more for, me or you. I know if you've seen America at its best, as I, I have all of my life, and then you see this, it's very distressing. On the other hand, if you just have a future that's bleak, it's also very distressing. I, I— it's bad, it's bad no matter what. And it's all, it's all auto-homicide. I won't say suicide.

It's all contrived.

It's all contrived.

So much of this is contrived. And that's right, you know, one of the things that I'm trying to do A, you know, for my show and for the benefit of the viewer, but also just for my own intellectual enrichment, is to read more about the demise and downfall of the Roman Empire. Because there seemed to be, from the very little that I know, there seemed to be parallels. The Roman Empire embraced this decadent culture. Moral relativism took over. Sort of eerie similarities where they let their standards disintegrate, they let their population kind of run wild, do whatever they want. I want to do some comparisons on my show of other civilizations that have collapsed and see if there are some overlaps.

It's a very, very sad topic.

I thought you were going to say it's a very me topic to go back and Well, it's the year of credit.

Well, it truly is. So you got a message?

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That's right. That is how I end every ad read. To let— that's a service to Sean, to let him know that the ad is over.

Very serious show we do here.

It is, it is, it is. So I got a heavy-duty question based on the opening issue of the sudden terrible death of my cousin. And so I'm thinking, I think about this, it's fascinating. So you are very atypical. You think about genocide, for example. Okay, so I did— when I said life is fleeting at 23, does that make sense?

Of course, yes. Oh, definitely.

So when people say— I have an answer to this, but I'm much more interested in yours. Young people, they don't intellectually believe it. Everybody knows they'll die, but basically a young person's psychological makeup is that they're immortal. Do you have that?

I do. I don't think about my death. I'm sure I will later in life, but I do think a lot about my parents' deaths and frankly your death and other people who I love who are above the age of 50.

Right, which makes perfect sense. That, by the way, is the biggest difference, is the, uh, the amount you think of death. And I'm not being dark or, or even, even sad. It's just, it's inevitable. You mean as you get older? Yeah, because I re— I remember— that's what I would have said. Although I knew I could die and I took risks, but I didn't take silly risks. I still, I had the sense I have, I have all these years to live. That this, and every young person should think that. So here is, this is what you can't know, although you will understand it when I say it. So when you think 50 years from now It seems so long as to be almost inconceivable. 50 years from now, give me a break. I'm— 5 years from now is a big deal. But if you think 50 years ago, it's like that.

That's a good point.

Oh well, it's a point you would not know on your own. You couldn't. But it doesn't drive me crazy. It fascinates me.

Yes.

50 years from now is forever, right? 50 years ago is yesterday.

I think of the '80s and '90s as— I mean, again, it sounds weird to say because I was born in '99, so I never lived in that time. But when people refer to it, I think like, oh, it was relatively recent, but it's not.

Oh, that is interesting. Well, I didn't think you would think that.

Because isn't that what you're saying?

No, no, um, you don't have an ago as much as— because you haven't lived it. You have an ago for society, you don't have an ago for you.

I tend to think of the '80s and '90s as—

well, you see, that's odd to me because recently— because if I thought of the '40s and, and '30s, they sounded very, very long ago to me. When I was your age?

I mean, I guess in some ways they seem long ago, but I mean, because the wokeism didn't exist.

But well, they were. Yes.

But my point is, when people talk about the '80s, I think it was like 15 years ago or 20 years ago.

Oh, that is—

no, it's weird for me to think that was 1980 was 42 years ago.

Right. But that's a different point from mine. In your own life, 50 years from now, is beyond contemplation.

Oh yeah.

I remember thinking when I was in high school, wow, I'll probably be alive in the year 2000. How old will I be? And then I go, oh my God, that is so far from now. That is—

and then 2000 came and went and went, and now it's 22 years past then.

Time is a very eerie thing.

So this actually dovetails nicely with what I brought up a few minutes ago, that I really do fear that I will see the demise of this country in my lifetime.

Yeah, that's right, you could.

So when you just asked me about death, I obsess about my parents' death, which is— deaths, I should say, which I know isn't healthy, but it really scares me. I say to them often, I go, don't die, don't die, because I'm so afraid. But I answered that I don't think about my death, and that's true, but I actually have been thinking about it more because of this idea that I have that I will see the collapse of America if this continues. And by the way, I just wanna make clear, as you say all the time, this will not impede my will to fight.

Correct. I know that.

I'm dedicating my life to fighting.

Correct.

And in fact, not only will it not impede my will to fight, redoubles my motivation to—

That's the healthy response.

Yes. So I just wanna make that clear to the listeners that yes, I'm afraid, but I'm not discouraged and I'm not in despair. I'm going to charge forward. But I do think about my death a little bit more in that context because if we descend into a civil war or if China attacks us, I mean, you know, I do so much reading on China on my show, Timeless. I talk about China probably every episode They are really coming for us in every way. I mean, they are so much more technologically skilled than we are. They have a— I just wrote an article about how they have a more robust military than we do now. We used to have the top military in the world. They've surpassed us. They have all of these crazy ways of spying on us through TikTok, through drones, through artificial intelligence. And I do fear that one day they will attack us or we will face a really imminent threat from them. And so I think about my death in that way.

Here's the sad part, since we decided to discuss sadness. I don't see China attacking us. I see China assuming we're going to commit suicide.

True. Right now, they're—

I think all they have to do is prepare the funeral.

That is true. But they are also trying to hasten— hasten?

No, hasten.

Good. I always get self-conscious when I say words on this broadcast.

Well, it's very rare for you. There are people who say, given the T issue in the word.

Yes.

Yeah. People there say often and some say often.

Which one is—

It's often. But anyway, I've heard often a lot. I think I've heard often, often.

There you go. I, I do think China is trying to expedite the process though, because look at what they're doing with fentanyl. They make and create fentanyl and they're selling it to the Mexican drug cartels who are funneling it across our border. They know exactly what they're doing. They're trying to kill American citizens and they're succeeding. As we know, it's the number one cause of death for 18 to 45.

It's a form of suicide. It's homicide and suicide, right?

But I agree with your overall sentiment that as sad as it is, they don't even need to do that much because we are self-destructing.

Well, we're destroying our military under the left-wing regime that we have in the United States. It's become woke. That's why so few people are enlisting. I mean, it was very often the best would enroll, would enlist. They wanted to serve their country. They wanted to fight for it. But you don't have that nearly as much now. I mean, that the head of the military, the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, would say in Congress, we have to teach white supremacy to our, to our Sailors and Marines and soldiers and air cadets. I mean, it's beyond belief.

It really is beyond belief. And like my school, it took such a turn.

Yes, the rapidity.

It's very eerie.

Yes. Well, it's like they say, there's an old saying about somebody who becomes a star at, let's say, 40. He What was it? He's an overnight star after 20 years. In other words, you heard about him just now, right? But he's been working at it for 20 years. The left has been working at destroying the country.

That's true.

For a century.

That is.

So it's finally— they're like an overnight sensation now.

I was recently reading William F. Buckley's God and Man at Yale. Didn't you read that recently? Yeah, but It shows you that the rot went that bad.

That's right, that's exactly correct.

I was kind of stunned as to some of the things you were talking about. Well, I think people—

when I was in graduate school at Columbia in the '70s, I learned men and women were basically the same. I learned that the US and the Soviet Union were just two superpowers in, like, two scorpions in a bottle. I remember the analogy that they gave. They're two superpower scorpions in a bottle. And that's what I learned at the School of International Affairs. That's correct. It was not freedom versus tyranny. It was two superpowers battling for hegemony. So it's worse today. I mean, they would not have said then— I don't know if you heard this, I reported it on my show— a lesbian in Norway is being charged with hate speech, which is a crime in Norway. It will be here.

It will be here.

And she could go to prison for 3 years. You know what she said? Men cannot be lesbians.

Really?

Yes.

Oh my God.

Yes, it's worthy of an oh my God, which reminds me, you've got some comment about seeing God?

Oh gosh. See, I just said, oh gosh, instead of oh God. Yes. MyPillow is excited to bring you their biggest bedding sale ever and just in time for Christmas. For a limited time, get the Giza Dream bed sheets for as low as $29.98, a set of pillowcases for only $9.98, and rejuvenate your bed with a MyPillow mattress topper for as low as $99.99. They also have blankets in a variety of sizes, colors, and styles. They even have blankets for your pets. Get duvets, quilts, down comforters, body pillows, bolster pillows, and so much more, all with the biggest discounts of the year happening now. MyPillow is also extending their money-back guarantee for Christmas until March 1st, 2023, making them a great gift for your friends, your family, and everyone you know. So go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Hartman. That's spelled H-A-R-T-M-A-N. Or call 1-800-566-6745 and you'll get big discounts on all MyPillow bedding products, including the Giza Dream bed sheets, for as low as $29.98. And get all your shopping done now while quantities last. So Sean brought it to my attention before the show that there were some listeners who commented on my use of God when I say, oh my God, on the broadcast. And you had a response to that.

I do. I have been contacted for 40 years, first by letter when that's the only way people could contact you, then by email.

Wow.

And, uh, Dennis, love you and love what you say, but you use God's name in vain too much. You will say, oh my God, to a caller who says something. So I have, I have thought this thing through more than most people. In a nutshell, first of all, God is not God's name, okay? God's name is Yahweh or Jehovah, however you wish to pronounce it. So God is, is the English noun or pronoun, but now really personal noun for, for God. But it's not God's name. More relevant, or more deep, though that is, that is an issue. More deep is this, and it's in my Rational Bible, when I explain the commandment, do not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. And I have a very long explanation, and I wish people would read it. I'm going to have you say a word about the Rational Bible since it's Hanukkah and Christmastime. And you don't know this, I'm just going to ask you to do it. Nobody could do it like you.

Anytime, Dennis.

But I just want to explain, fascinatingly, it is the only commandment God says he will not forgive. So either God has a very skewed moral sense, because if people are right, if you say, oh my God, did you see that pitch at a baseball game? Or, oh my God, what a tough day at the office. God won't forgive that, but he will forgive murder and theft and perjury. That he'll forgive, but not, oh my God, What, what a home run! People don't apply common sense to, to religion. It's one of the reasons religion does not appeal to a lot of people. It doesn't seem that it's sensical. That's why I call my, my books The Rational Bible. And it drives me out of my mind when people do that. It's the only commandment that says God will not forgive. So it can't mean if you say, "Oh my God." It can't mean. And the Hebrew doesn't say, "Do not take." It says, "Do not carry." Do not carry God's name in vain. Who carries God's name in vain? People who do the opposite of what God wants, but they do it in God's name. People who do evil in God's name. It's the only group that God won't forgive. God will forgive an atheist who murders sooner than he will forgive a person who murders in God's name. That's what that commandment is about.

Dennis, you're doing the job for me. I mean, I am happy to say something about the Rational Bible whenever you want me to, but what you just said here is what I tell people all the time, that, you know, growing up I didn't really know a lot about religion, and I had an idea that it was kind of this mystical universe where things didn't make a lot of sense. In reading your commentary, you make everything make sense. You try and everything, everything. And even the things that don't make sense, you, you, you explain why they don't make sense and why it's valuable that they don't make sense. So you make the nonsensical sensical, right? We talked on this broadcast, I believe last time I commented that so many people nowadays need to have absolute certainty about things. They need to have a scientific proof or perfect logic to prove something. And I said, that's a very— that's a tragic thing because you lose some of the magic in life. Like I said last time, I love that we don't know for certain that God is real because that makes us better people. And I think it makes our lives richer having that mystery. And so anyway, that's just an example of that's something that you can't make perfect sense of, but you explain why that nonsensical part is there.

So let me just say, it's a great comic or Christmas gift.

Oh, it is.

It'll change people.

I don't know if I even told you, I have purchased it for Christmas gifts. Yes. Well, now I just gave it away for the people who are in my life watching.

And she didn't even get a special rate.

No, I didn't.

But I would sign them for them if you want.

Well, you've been very generous with that in the past.

Well, I'm generous. Okay.

And also, I mean, it's a— I think I've said this before, but it's worth saying a million times. I ordered The Rational Bible to buff up on history. I thought, you know, it's bad that I don't know anything about this work. And just to be an informed citizen, I should read this and understand the foundation of our received wisdom. Reading The Rational Bible helped me understand that, but you also made me religious. And that I wasn't going in expecting. You made it so powerful, so understandable, and so fun to read. That's the other thing about your book. It's really fun. Your language is incredibly clear. You explain everything in a riveting way that you don't— you kind of learn by accident. And you, you made me religious. And that really is the best gift that you've given me in my entire life.

I don't know what to say. It means the world to me. I look at it that God or life, you never know. I, I, people who attribute things to God without question, I envy them, and, and I'm, I, I, I don't, it's not my style. I, I don't know what God has done in my life. I don't know. I can believe, but I don't know. So I'll say either God or life has made it possible for me not to depend on book writing for an income. It's done out of idealism. My books have been bestsellers, it's true, but that's not why I wrote them. And certainly not a Bible commentary, as my favorite line. Nobody writes a commentary on Deuteronomy to get wealthy. Okay, most Americans never heard of Deuteronomy, and that's my latest. But if I've touched you, this is a compliment. It's rare. Usually when you think I'm complimenting you, I'm merely stating the obvious. But I don't think— okay, I know you don't. This is a compliment. If I only did that to you, it was worth all the work. You don't have to say a word because you're, you're sort of going to blush.

I am blushing. No, you've said that to me before.

Well, no, I mean, and I believe that. It— anyway, that we don't have to dwell on.

And I, I, and I know I said this before, but I think so much about— I mean, talk about the hand of God. I, I was really lucky that I happened to discover you at the time that I was having curiosity about religion, and that your Bible commentary was my first swing at this. In other words, I had a blank slate, and, and your work was the first thing to fill that slate. What if I had a bad slate?

Yes, you know, which is very common.

Which is very common.

Not that they are bad, that they don't— they They're not convincing. They don't make much sense. They rely on faith. Yes, that could easily have happened. But I need to say this to you because people come over to me a lot, obviously, and a common line is, I just want you to know, Dennis, you've changed my life. And I'm very touched by that. And that's what I want to do. I'm— that's why I've always felt I'm on Earth, is to change people's lives for the better. So I'm very touched, and I move on, you know, to my gate, imagining this is at an airport, which you are at a lot. Yes. But this is the interesting thing. Sometimes if I have time with that person, I will explain, I did change your life, but you get 50% of the credit.

I love it when you say that, because it's true. It is true. I'll take it. Maybe I get 30. I don't know.

No, no, no, you get 50. You get it. No, you get 50. You had to be receptive to logic. You had to be receptive to changing your mind. You had to be receptive to challenging predispositions that you had, things that you had thought of earlier.

See, this just— I feel like every episode we come back to this, and it's, it's very telling that we do. I'm not, I'm not lamenting that we do. I'm I think it's a great thing, but I will accept that I get some of the credit. But it goes back to this nature argument. I just— I was just born that way.

Oh, I know that. You know, this is a very tough issue.

It is tough. I know.

You know how much I struggle with it.

I don't want to sell myself short, but I'm reading a book now.

The Wall Street Journal had a review. This is it. And the review just riveted me. So I'm virtually finished with it. It is a book. I don't even know the name. I'm just reading it.

And the book or the review?

No, I don't— the book. I don't remember the name. I'm reading a book. You know, it's hundreds of pages and I don't even know the name. And it doesn't matter. Well, it does matter because I'd like you to know it. Yeah, it's very you, right? Yeah. And it's about a guy. It's about— it's a terrible story. It's about A young Canadian couple visiting Seattle from British Columbia, right over the border, just to have a night on the town, so to speak, go to Seattle. And he was brutally murdered. They were 17 and 18 years old. He was brutally murdered and she was raped and murdered. Horrible, horrible story. No one was ever found. For 35 or 40 years. It happened in— so, 35 years. Let's see, it happened in 1987. And now, thanks to DNA— not just DNA, thanks to DNA of finding family members— they, they can now, like 23andMe and that sort of stuff, they, they can find your relatives. It, it, it— I can't fully explain it, but it is remarkable. So that has led to the capture of a lot of people in cold cases where they gave up finding the murderer. They had his semen from the rape, so they had the DNA, but there's no D— but if you're not in a DNA base, it's useless. You had to be arrested or for some— for something to give DNA.

Yes.

So they had no match for 40 years, but they don't have to match now. They can do it via isolating relatives. So if they know your cousin, they can find you. It— I can't explain it, but it's mind-boggling that they can identify And it's mostly done for kids who were adopted and want to find birth parents, for people who want to figure out patrimony. Was it really the biological father, or was it the milkman, as they used to say? Anyway, they, after 35 years, they found this guy. Who has led a pretty upright life. Yes, The Forever Witness. Oh, that is Edward Hume's. Yeah, it's, it's riveting. And I, I, when, when, when he's described, he was a terrible kid. He tortured animals, which is always a giveaway you're going to hurt people. It's, it's, it's like almost inevitable. And Did you torture animals as a kid? Did I torture animals as a kid? It being conceivable. So this free will issue is very, very tough. That's all I'm saying.

It is tough. I mean, what— why? You know, I just want to say to God, like, oh, it's a— yeah, so you, you and my wife, why did you create some people this way?

Well, well, that's right, it is rough. But, but the only thing I can say— there's a Hebrew saying in the Talmud, the second holiest work of Judaism after the Bible, that human nature is the poison and the Torah is the antidote. That's exactly how they put it. And that's what I believe. Whatever you believe, whatever your nature, you take this Torah seriously You'll, you'll be a, a decent human being, maybe even a really good one.

And that is why I love religion. And that is why I love conservatism. Cuz that to me is the most empowering idea in the world.

I know. I heard you say it on your broadcast.

It is. It is.

I mean, yes.

That is the most—

I heard it on your broadcast.

I am happy. So I'll, I'll tell everyone we share a set. My set's right over there and Dennis and, and Dennis and Julie set, but primarily your show is here. And so when I started out doing Timeless, I wanted Dennis to leave the room because I was self-conscious. But then, did you hear it from sitting here and listening, or did you hear it by listening?

I heard it by listening.

Oh, after?

Oh yes.

Well, I was just going to say, I allowed you to stay yesterday when I was filming, so I'm getting more comfortable.

You are? Yeah, but you were at— you were, uh, you were interviewing.

Yes.

I wouldn't have stayed at all if he was solo. I don't— because I don't know. You'll have to tell me your comfort level, but you will be— you can say you'll be able to ignore my presence and I won't make noises and I won't go—

that's the thing, that's the thing, he will make noise. No, your newspapers, whenever you're—

oh please, I read newspapers silently as a cat walks. Anyway, uh, it is, it is one of the questions. And I just, before we go, I just want to echo your point about God. God could have made us without doubt have in his existence, could have made us any way he wants, or, or made his presence clear at every, at every second, like, like at least biblically, to Moses, or Christians to Jesus, but obviously chose not to. Because if there was no doubt that there was a God, if you couldn't doubt it any more than I doubt you are there, what free will would we have then? It's like, what free will do you have to speed if there are 3 highway patrol cars next to you? I mean, theoretically you have freedom, but of course you don't.

I mean, I know it sounds stupid to say because it's obvious, but I just love talking about this stuff. And I think about all of the people who never consider these issues, nature, doubt.

I know.

Can you imagine how stale and brittle and desiccating and desert-y their lives are? And by the way, that was, I mean, I always had curiosity about these things and I thought about them, but You can imagine my first 10 years of radio how happy I was.

My only— well, it wasn't my only show, but I started gradually. I had my own show within a few years, but my started— I was the moderator of a priest, rabbi, minister for 2 hours.

Religion on the Line, right?

And different ones each week. So I love talking religion. So do you realize I'm 32 years old which to you is relatively older, but it's still very young. And I'm being paid on the biggest talk station west of the Rockies and the second biggest in America to talk religion to clergy of all faiths. And I'm thinking like you're thinking, I'm paid to do this.

I know. I mean, we were— I want to make it clear, we work very hard.

Oh yeah, no, I deserved it, but it doesn't matter still.

I know. So Still, yes, so fun. And I just, I think about the date thing, the ethical monotheism date line. That is me on dates. I'm just like, so do you believe in God? Why not? Or why? Or did you know? I have.

And it's odd that, that they would find that problematic.

I honestly think they think I'm weird.

Yeah, well, you are an outlier. I wouldn't call you weird, but you're certainly not the norm.

Ditto.

Okie dokie.

You can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. Again, I'm so sorry I can't respond to each of you, but I read everything, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And I thank you so much for writing. And I pass it along to Dennis too, some emails, and he enjoys reading them.

I love reading.

Yes, we both find such joy in it.

This show is very important to me. The Dennis and Julie thing. It is not just another show for me.

Well, if only you knew how important it is to me and how much it's changed my— I mean, again, it's going back to what we were saying a minute ago. Yes, I view it as a job, but I also don't.

Well, of course.

I mean, it's, it's just right. It's so— I feel like it's like a seminar on life.

It is a seminar on life. That's a good way to actually—

yeah, that's what Dennis and Julie is.

I may use that term. That's a good one.

Thank you. We'll go with that.

You're welcome.

So you can follow this Seminar on Life show @DennisJuliePod on Instagram and Twitter and Dennis and Julie Podcast on Facebook. Maybe if we change the name one day, which I don't think we should do, we could call it Seminar on Life, or maybe it could be a subtitle.

That's right. I agree.

See you next time.

Bye.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure.

Why?

Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions? And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, You are, in effect, affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.