Dennis & Julie: Decline in Prestige

This is the story of the one. As a procurement manager for a hospital system, she keeps every facility in her network stocked and ready. That's why she counts on Grainger to be her single source for thousands of products, from disinfectants to lighting, air filters, and more. And with fast, dependable delivery, Grainger helps her keep every facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

Well, hello there, the pair that never miss a week.

It's remarkable.

It is remarkable.

And it's getting harder.

People have no idea. You know, I travel and you're joining gradually as well.

Yes.

Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. I'm Dennis. That's Julie.

Shalom.

There we go. It's really adorable. The non-Jew tells everybody shalom and the Jew says hello. Okay, no problem. Jules, does everybody know I call you— does anybody know I call you?

You know, you've done it a few times on the podcast, but because I do it a lot, I almost never call you Julie.

I know it must be a very serious— yes, a very serious moment. Well, got a serious subject. I got a few things on my mind. I had a Harvard graduate student Dennis Prager, who wrote a piece in the Wall Street Journal, you know, in some ways very analogous to your piece when you were at Harvard.

Really?

In the— well, you criticized Harvard.

Yeah.

And he criticized Harvard over totally different issues. But it is interesting. His issue was their tepid response to the Nazi-like activities of Hamas and How many student groups are anti-Israel, how uncomfortable it is for a Jew on campus, which is really disturbing. You know, I was a Jew on campus. Nobody gave a hoot. My one friend at Columbia was a yarmulke-wearing guy, and he walked around with a yarmulke. It was a non-issue. And now, I mean, students are afraid to wear a Star of David around their neck.

Wasn't there a student at Harvard that was knocked over during one of the sit-ins, I guess, by the Palestinian groups?

Well, can you imagine? People need to understand this, and I know exactly why they don't. They don't understand what I'm about to say because they don't want to. My old line, evil is not dark. It's easy to look into the dark. Evil is bright. You can't look into the sun. So they don't want to. The fact is, there is no difference. Actually, there were two differences, interestingly enough, which I'll get into because I already raised the issue between the Nazis and the enemies of Israel. And it's not just Hamas. It's not just Hezbollah. It's not just Iran. It's all those who support them. They admit they want to exterminate the state of Israel. They, from the, from the river the sea, Palestine will be free. Well, what exists between the river and the sea? The Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Guess what? Israel. They announced they want to exterminate a state. They actually clearly would exterminate its inhabitants, and yet people don't want to acknowledge it. So my point is, what is it like For a student, not just Harvard, really almost any college, when you know that a certain percentage of your classmates want to murder all your co-religionists in Israel, that's, that's got— it's— I can't think of an analogy where if you're a Black student and you know that a certain percentage of the kids are pro-lynching It's a strange thing, isn't it?

It is. I will say, as horrible, horrible as these groups are and as horrible as the petition was, I'm not convinced that every single student who signed that wants to see the extermination of Jews. I think maybe some of them do, or— but I think more of it is for them. They want to get back the lost land. I don't— I don't think that most individual Harvard students are Hamas-like in their wanting to kill Jews.

Agreed. But the, but the, the activists do. I mean, the chant is exterminatory. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. It means that.

See, look, I'm not trying to condone it. I always understood that as retaking land. I didn't understand that as—

Right.

But killing, killing the people who are on the land.

Right. To retaking. Okay. So even let's analyze that because it's important that it isn't even fully clear to you that that's important.

Yeah.

So what does retaking the land mean? If, if there were any analogous thing, if let's say, but it wouldn't be comparable, but I'll still use it. Mexico says we want Texas back and from the Rio Grande to Oklahoma will be Mexican. So it does not necessarily entail the killing of all Americans who live in Texas. But it does entail the extinguishing of Texas as a state.

Right.

It is now incorporated into Mexico. But in this case, it, it, it does. October 7th proved it does entail killing the Jews there.

Right. I, I hear you. I just think that the students who are stupid and who may have, many of them may be more than stupid, many of them may be downright evil. But I think that most of the students wanna see the land taken back. I'm I'm not convinced that most of the students want to see Jews be exterminated and killed as the Hamas leaders do.

Okay. I'm glad you— again, I'm glad you said it because I also want to believe in the lesser evil. We won't say goodness of those people, but after October 7th, you can't believe that it's only about land.

That is definitely true. And that's one of the scary things about the petition because It would be one thing if— and I'm not saying this is okay, but it would be one thing if, you know, Gaza fired another rocket into Israel and there was kind of this bombardment and people then signed a petition about holding the Israeli regime responsible for the rocket. That would be one thing. And that's not okay either. But to say after we see these videos of, of Hamas coming in and slaughtering, mutilating, kidnapping, raping innocent civilians. You're right. There's no black and white. This is not— this is not about land.

I mean, it is black and white.

Oh, sorry. Excuse me. Yes, you're right. It is black and white. There are no shades of gray in this. This is not just about land. This is about exterminating Jews. You're absolutely right. So I agree that in the wake of October 7th, these students—

you can no longer fool yourself.

Yes. And they're saying we hold the Israeli regime responsible for all unfolding violence. This was not This wasn't just like a rocket exchange. This was one group coming in and slaughtering another group. It is black and white. But, but still, as much as I acknowledge that, and I am not trying to give a hall pass to these individuals, honestly, as the days go on, I'm actually more kind of coming around to— because we debated about this the last Dennis and Julie, whether their name should be exposed. I think their name should be the more that I read about this. But I still— I don't think that every individual signee really would want to see Jews killed.

I don't believe every German wanted to see all Jews killed, even every German that voted Nazi. But if, if there were— if you supported Hitler after 1939—

very true.

Okay, all right, so So I have a different issue related. I asked this graduate student, this Jewish graduate student at Harvard who was on my show, it was very interesting. He has a piece in the Wall Street Journal, as I said to you. His name is J.J. Kimchee, or Kimchee, K-I-M-C-H-E. People should look up the article. There was another article by Andy Kessler who writes for the Wall Street Journal. And it's— I'm seeing this more and more, and I want— obviously I want your reaction. We have raised this, but the context, the ante has been raised. The reputation of, of the Harvards of the country. And obviously, see, since you went there, I'm particularly interested. I, I think, and it's one of the rare times that I have I know it's dark, but I have an optimistic view. I don't tend to gravitate to optimism about the world. I have a very optimistic personality, but that's not the same thing. I do believe that the name of any university has deteriorated in the recent past. The number of articles of people writing, we can no longer support the university. It is unprecedentedly big.

Yes.

So, so do you feel that? Do you feel that they— I have it on two levels. One, do you think that, and this is completely related, is saying I went to Harvard the same today as 2 years ago?

Hmm. Well, that's a complicated answer because in the world that I'm in, no one gives a bleep that I went to Harvard. I think if I worked at Goldman Sachs or if I worked at Morgan Stanley, they would care. But in this world that, you know, this office I'm in, no one cares. And by the way, I think that's great. I don't want them to care because I'm proud of the work I did to get in there.

Well, you're truly in the best standpoint. Correct. Yes.

To be my whole identity. But so I just want to acknowledge that factors into my answer. But yes, I do think it has dropped down in prestige because of this, unfortunately, but maybe also perhaps fortunately, because these universities need a wake-up call. And as I said last, Dennis and Julian, I know I said it a few times and I'm going to say it again, I'm really upset that it has taken this to wake up many of the donors and the alums.

Thank you.

And the administration. Yeah, that really bothers me. And I think— and again, I know I'm repeating myself, but I don't see anybody else talking about this. Oh, really? Now, when these students sign this letter condoning Hamas, now you're pulling your money, but you didn't pull your money all the times that they, you know, spread lies about the United States of America, wanted to suppress free free speech on college campuses, wanted to inculcate people with gender and race theories.

And right, that was okay.

That was okay with you.

All Black storms were okay with you, right?

You supported Black Lives Matter.

BDS was okay.

Yes, it was. You supported Black Lives Matter for 3 years, donated to them, marched with them, put lawn signs in support of them. And then now they post a photo of a Hamas paraglider and you're like, oh my God, Black Lives Matter is so bad. Where the hell have you been, fools? So I do think this is a turning point, but frankly, I think it's like a small turning point. I think it's gonna take something even bigger, and I hate to say it, than this to really knock out the cancer of radical left-wing thought. I think this is a nice kind of start, but it's not finished.

Nothing will knock out the cancer of radical left-wing thought. What might be knocked out is the prestige of going to college and the prestige of prestigious colleges. That's what I'm talking about. I wonder how many American parents 20 years ago and for the last 50, 80, how many parents right now care less about whether their kid goes to college or care less about what college their kids go to than 25 years ago.

I have a newsflash for you. They don't— this has not changed it. The same people who want their kids to go to Harvard are unfazed by this. Now, the reason why I said that's important— oh, it is. I am convinced of it. Jewish parents as well as non-Jewish parents, they still want their kids to go to these universities. That I'm certain of. That's why I say it's going to take something even bigger to really knock these places down in prestige. And I say this very, you know, regrettably, because I worked my tail off to get into Harvard. I gave up my whole life to get into Harvard.

God willing, you'll have children. Will you— this is independent. It's related but independent. I've never asked you this, and I'm really curious.

Will I care if they go?

Yeah.

No, I wouldn't care.

So will you push your children?

No.

To succeed in high school as you were pushed?

No, no. I think about that a lot. Nope. I will, I will expect them to work hard. I will expect them to take school seriously, assuming that, I mean, I'm gonna make sure they go to a good school. If, if they're going to one of these California public schools and are learning, you know, are have an assignment about misappropriated land, I'll be like, yeah, you can, you don't have to care about that assignment. I will, I will have standards for them, but no, I will not, I will not have them do what I did. In fact, I will go out of my way to make sure that they did, they don't do what I did. I want them to come home from school and I'm going to say no, not that I was on my phone, but I was at swim practice all the time from the time I was 5, just going to swim practice after school. I remember thinking like, what is it like to go home and just be? Just watch TV or run around. When my kids come home from school, especially when they're young, I'm going to take away their phones and technology and I'm going to say, go out and play. I'm going to make sure that they don't have that kind of rigidity. I think, I think it's terrible. It's— I will say it's benefited me in a lot of ways, a lot of ways. I'm a hard worker. I have thick skin. I, I'm resilient. There's no challenge that I don't feel that I can, that I can't handle. And that is really useful. But boy, I will make sure my kids don't have that same rigidity. Well, if they go to— I would love if they went to Hillsdale instead of Harvard. If they end up going to Harvard, great. But I won't, I won't pressure them.

This is the story of the one. As a procurement manager for a hospital system, she keeps every facility in her network stocked and ready. That's why she counts on Grainger to be her single source for thousands of products, from disinfectants to lighting, air filters, and more. And with fast, dependable delivery, Grainger helps her keep every facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

So will you say to your kids— and I'm not saying you should, uh, this is just exploring, Julie.

Yeah.

So I said to my two boys I, I don't care about your grades. I only care about your character. It's fascinating that very few parents, certainly middle class, upper class, upper middle class parents, said that. It has turned out— I, I think, I believe it's partially luck how your kids turn out. But to the extent that I am at all responsible, I think that attitude had a big impact on them.

Well, I will say the same thing, though I will amend it to say that your character matters more, but your grades do matter to me.

Okay, fair enough.

I want them to perform well.

Right.

And the reason I want them to take— I think that taking— I know, I know that you are an exception, and I really mean that, that you are an exception.

And it may not apply to most people.

Yes, but most of the times Most of the time.

Or they're just slacking off.

When they slack off, it's this lack of respect for the teacher, it's lack of respect for the school, and I don't want that. And I want them to learn. But anyway, back to this Harvard prestige thing. As I said, it makes me really sad because I worked my tail off to get in there. And also, as you know, in many ways I had a lovely experience. I really did. I had a great dorm. My freshman year and upperclassmen years, I made great friends. I chose my professors really carefully. I had a lot of great relationships. And so it's really sad for me because I know the Harvard that I went to and the Harvard that I made for myself. And were there problems? Yes. And I wrote about, you know, some of them. I wasn't ever shy with my critiques. But there's this whole— I feel like I kind of created this world at Harvard that was so separate from the world that we're seeing in the headlines. And I know that part of Harvard exists, and it's sad that those individuals have to drag down all the rest of us.

Right. But the rest aren't speaking up.

You're right. They're not.

And you can't defeat evil with quiet. Simple as that.

I totally agree with you. And I gave that senior speech at Harvard talk about another critique about anti-Americanism. And I ended the speech, I went through a litany of all, it's actually very prescient. I went through a litany of all of these things, Black Lives Matter embezzling money, the American Medical Association saying that they want to take gender off of birth certificates. I said, outside of this church where I was delivering the speech, there was an upside down American flag with painted bullet holes in it for Israeli Apartheid Week. And after each of those things, I said, and we remained silent and we remained silent. I was criticizing the silence. And I ended the speech by saying, we have to be honest that the reason that we remain silent, or the reason that we don't speak up, is that we fear personal and professional consequences of doing so. That is cowardice. So I am with you. I was very upset a lot of the time where people would just kind of have this resignation, this shrug of the shoulders. But again, I think it's going to take something even more catastrophic than this to further wake up donors and alums and students and the administration. Administration.

This is something, but it's hard to imagine because if there were another 9/11.

Yeah.

And there might be, by the way.

I think there probably will be.

Well, my evidence is simply the number of people crossing the border.

Oh, of course.

A friend of mine who was very, very bright, a Persian American, and He has some high-level contacts, and he said two guys, former government guys who know a lot, said that a serious number of terrorists have crossed the border. And here's a fascinating question. If God forbid it happens and there's some massive terrorist attack, and they— it's clear they came from through Mexico. Will the Democrats pay a price?

Perhaps. Again, it is horrible to me that it would take that. People should see this now. But I think they might, just as universities are paying a price right now. The question is, how grand of a price?

Something— yeah, you said it needs to be something more serious. The only more serious is something anti-American.

Yes, I don't wanna get, you have wisely advised me to not get into the realm of predictions, but I think if I may break the rule for a moment, it will take something like a terrible recession or a terrible terrorist attack or a terrible breach of cybersecurity and intelligence shutting down the grid which I think could be in the near future because China is so— is such an evil power and an ever-encroaching power globally. But I think it'll take something like that that really shakes up Americans' way of life, that wakes people up from their blissful, privileged slumber of, oh, we in America, we're always going to be fine. We can advocate for whatever stupid ideas. It's never going to touch us. It's going to take something like that to, I think, really make people go, okay, we can, we can no longer coast here.

Welcome to the Dennis and Julie Happiness Hour.

Well, that's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it is the, the Dennis and Julie Realistic Hour.

I couldn't agree more. But the realism is not a happy realism.

It's not. No.

We have discussed this many times. I don't care. Frankly, I, I, it doesn't matter to me because every time it's different language. And, but I, I really, really do wish that you could have, even in a dream, yeah, dream about the America I grew up.

Oh gosh, I know.

So when I look back, I'm got, I gotta tell you, the innocence, the lack of worry about America. You see, it's very hard to imagine something missing, so that we didn't, that we didn't have any of these things. And I grew up, I didn't grow up rich, or I didn't grow up poor, I didn't grow up, but I, as I always say, I could prove I was the middle of the middle class. You know, oh, this you'll love. Do you know that people's income were in most cases completely associated with the car they drove?

No.

And I will tell— this will fascinate you, I, I, because I know you so well. So, uh, General Motors produced 5 vehicles. Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Chevrolet. And that is the order of wealth. Oh, so if you were, if you were really wealthy, you had a Cadillac. If you were pretty wealthy, you had a Buick. If you were in the middle, you had an Oldsmobile. If you were below middle, you had a Pontiac. And if you were the least income earner, you had a Chevrolet. My— so my father had an Oldsmobile. That's how I know how middle of the middle class we were. He could not afford a Buick. Forget Cadillac.

Right. So anyway, how different it is today. I see people like rolling up to the mall in a Mercedes and I'm sorry, but I'm like, you have a Mercedes? There's a lot of confusing signals.

Well, yeah, because you can rent. What really cracks me up is when they use a BMW then to rob a store.

Well, that's a great example.

Yes. So by the way, did you ever hear of Pontiac?

No.

Did you ever think—

I'm going to Google it.

You ever hear of Buick?

Yes. Yes.

And Oldsmobile?

No.

So Oldsmobile and Pontiac were two new names for you. I love that.

By the way, to brag for a moment, because a lot of girls can't do this. I can identify almost any type of car on the street.

Why?

If— because growing up, I had so many swim meets and soccer tournaments all around California. On the— every single weekend, my dad and I were in the car driving to San Bernardino or to, to wherever the hell God knows where I was playing sports. And my dad would point out to me That, that's a, that's a Range Rover. That's a Ford. That's a Mazda. That's a Lexus, which is on the road, which is a part of Toyota. That's it. And now every time, if I'm ever on a date, I do this. I tell the guy, I'm like, watch this. Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Mercedes, Ford, Honda, Honda Civic, Lexus, which is a part of Toyota. And they're like, they think it's so cool. Anyway, that I think something to put on my resume.

I think it's cool. So back to, I wish you could experience— so when I think about it, I had issues in my family, nothing terrible, but I had issues in my family. But I can't think of one social issue that bothered me growing up. I didn't think about it. All I knew was I'm lucky to be an American. End of issue.

That is so true. I mean, I think about this too, for the first 20 years of my life, I never worried about my country ever. And I know that's a blessing and a privilege. And I was, I sort of appreciated it. But now that I'm older and I do worry about my country, I realized just how much I should have appreciated it. But I even had that growing up. I mean, we never, we never talked about like gay marriage or anything. It just didn't, it wasn't a deal. And the thing that's so upsetting now, and I know I've observed this on Dennis and Julie and you've agreed, that so many of these issues are contrived. What's sad is that increasingly more issues are— that started off as contrived are becoming real issues. Like, for instance, the border, the border protection. I mean, we used to have a robust functioning system of border protection and immigration screening. Yes. And now we have this contrived issue of throwing it open and, oh, are we going to be xenophobic? Are we not? And now we have a real issue of, as you said, 7 million plus undocumented immigrants coming into the country since 2021, and we don't know who the hell they are. Many are coming for a better life, of course, but many are not. And another contrived issue is this, you know, climate change thing, that climate change is an existential threat to our existence. Well, that's what it is. Existential to our existence is an existential threat to our country, to our world.

And by the way, that was impressive.

Well, that was stupid, actually. No, no, no, it was stupid.

It was impressive.

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If we took a vote with 100 people—

you're wrong, you're wrong. They'll comment. They'll go, yeah, she corrected Dennis Prager. You just—

half the people listening don't even know what you corrected. You said existential threat to our existence and said it's redundant. That's what an existential threat is. Yes, I got it. I loved it. Okay, go on.

But think about that again. It started as contrived. Oh, we got to do all this new green energy stuff. And now it's becoming a real issue where we are seeing states banning the sale of electric-powered vehicles by 2035. You mean banning the sale of gas-powered? Of gas-powered. See, I'm, I'm just messing up today. You know, moving off of the electric grid, trying to support this, this, you know, green new energy policy, stopping drilling, all of these issues that weren't issues. We didn't have problems. They made them into problems. And now they really are problems. That's the sad thing. And that is what makes the United States unique. Every country has issues. But the problem is most of our issues started off as contrived.

I couldn't agree more. You feel your first 20 years, which is absolutely— were blissful vis-à-vis America?

Yes.

Really?

Yes.

That's so interesting.

Totally.

I think the decline happened during that period, but it doesn't matter. I'm just— it's interesting. By the way, you, you often We have never explored this, and I even— I didn't explore this much with you privately, and that is your swimming background. So I think people should know, including me. So I have a lot of basic questions. A, how high did you get? What were you on? Were you the captain of your high school team? Yes, you were. And what was your stroke? Is that the proper question? Freestyle. Hey, I have a few. This fascinates me. How often did you practice?

5 days a week.

What time of day?

Afternoon, 3 to 5 p.m. And then sometimes morning practices on the— on Saturday mornings.

Oh, really? And where did you go to practice?

Well, it varied. I did club swimming and then I did school swimming, so Either at these Olympic-sized pools you did?

Yes. Yes. All, all the competition is in an Olympic-sized pool?

Most, most. But yes.

What age did you start?

5.

Why?

My parents enrolled me. They wanted me— and I, I don't blame them for this, but they, they wanted me to learn how to swim. And it's an incredibly useful skill to have, A, for your safety, and B, living in Southern California. And I got really good at it really fast.

Oh, so that's what happened.

Yeah.

Did you enjoy it at the age of 7?

Hated it.

I hated it so much. Wait, wait, wait. You got— so this is how my mind works.

You may find this— I don't know if the audience will find this to be interesting.

We have to talk about that. I know what people find interesting, and I will talk to you about that in a moment. But I I had another question. This is— and that— this is, by the way, it plays into your question, because what I do is I take the specifics and I draw giant conclusions.

Yes.

Because otherwise it isn't of interest to me if I can't make sense of life better. It's not just that I'm interested in Julie the swimmer. I, I think that they're— so here's a fascinating question. Overwhelmingly, people associate being good at loving the thing?

I despised it.

Okay, so this is a fascinating, not common thing to be gifted in something and hate it. It's somewhat like a guy I know who hated his dog. It can happen.

Are you talking about yourself?

No, no, not at all. I love my dogs, or I like them a lot.

Yeah, you like them.

So I never hated any of my dogs, even Cuckoo, who's—

yeah, right.

But anyway, no, this is, this is very interesting because we often think, and I think it's correct, but maybe it's not, if you love what you do— no, no, if you are great at what you do, you will love it. If it's hard to imagine a gifted pianist saying, the truth is I hate piano playing. Right?

Yes. Well, I will say this. I liked the— I liked the swim meets. They were both when we would compete because you only had 4 events, which means you were only in the water for probably 5 minutes total, and you could cheer other people on. And I always kind of liked the adrenaline. And frankly, I'm sorry if this sounds awful, I won. I won almost every time. And so that was fun. Winning was fun. But the practices were dreadful. I despised them. And interestingly, this is where I'll take a specific and then mushroom it to a larger point. I had really abusive coaches, like truly abusive, male and female, who would scream at us in the pool, scream so loud I would see their veins bulging out of their, of their necks. Hardman, you didn't go fast! You gotta go faster! You didn't hit the time! Like, just, just so throwing the clipboard. I mean, if you— because they give you these sets where you do, you do 5 200s on this time, and, you know, half of it is butterfly, half of it is backstroke, and then you did it, and you had to like memorize it all in your head, and they'd repeat it once and then you'd go do it. And if you messed up, you know what they would have you do? They would either have you do a sprint butterfly for 20 laps, which is really hard, or they would have you stand out of the pool and, and stand in streamline. I would do it, but my shirt—

what does that mean, streamline?

I, I will— again, I would do it, but I can't today because of this shirt. But you put your hands above your head and you like kind of squeeze that, your arms together.

For how long?

Oh, uh, we would be standing out there for like 10 minutes.

So it's a punishment?

Yeah, it was humiliating. It was, it was, you know, you're in a swimsuit, you're a young girl, and you would be standing in streamline out in the cold at night for messing up the set. And then they'd yell at you, and it was just so— it was really abusive. I'll, I'll say this to you, and then I'll shut up. And let you analyze, but I want to make two things really clear. Number one, my parents didn't know a lot of how bad the coaches were. I don't want people listening to be like, why did your parents keep you in this? I want to protect them, and, and they deserve my— I'm not just blindly protecting them.

They—

I, I didn't really tell them. It wasn't, you know, I wasn't being physically abused, it wasn't terrible, but it was bad. I didn't tell them because I just kind of thought that's like that's normal, you know, and I didn't want to come off as a wimp. And I think had they known, they probably would have pulled me out. So that's the first thing I want to make clear. The second thing is, I'm strangely grateful for it. I'm strangely grateful for all my crazy coaches, especially when I was really young. It was awful. I would cry in my goggles. It was humiliating. It was terrible. But there is no doubt that my swimming background both as an adolescent and as, you know, a teenager has laid the groundwork for what I'm doing right now because I can take heat, I can take criticism, I can take competition, I can take pressure. I mean, when I was launching Timeless and we were going live, I'm like, oh my God, this is so stressful. I'm 22 years old. I don't know what I'm doing, but I feel that I can handle this job that I'm in because of my swimming. So anyway, I didn't, I didn't want to just play the violin and have pity. Pity.

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Well, so you now have answered your own original objection: will people find this interesting? This is fascinating.

Interesting.

Okay, well, no, it's not fascinating, uh, the details of the breaststroke. Or the backstory. That's irrelevant. And I didn't ask about that. The fact that you regard your abusive coaches in the, in the final analysis as having played a positive role.

Yes.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Yeah.

You are far more hurt by coddling than by toughness. Even unfair toughness. I had that. And there was no question that that has helped me be able to take all the crap that I have to take. I am attacked daily in the national media, daily. And I'm finishing my tuna sandwich as I read it.

Yes. You know, it's so true. It doesn't surprise me that you also had that because in order to do this, especially at your level. You know, hopefully I'll be at your level someday. But, but to do this, you— there needs to be like some kind of grit that you have developed.

That's right.

As a child.

I'm going to tell you my favorite. Do you know my story about my basketball coach?

Oh, yes. The Prager's like, yeah, yeah, the worst. But he's tall. Yeah.

Well, well, that was the— so in a nutshell, the only reason I made my school varsity basketball team in high school was because I was the tallest kid in the school. It was a Jewish school. Jews aren't 6'4", okay? Especially a generation ago and especially in high school. So if the fact that I wasn't essentially in a wheelchair meant I would make the team, and I knew it. And by the way, this is hilarious. I hated basketball. I loved racket sports, racquetball, tennis, squash. I loved them. But I did not like— I still don't like basketball. I don't like to play it. I don't even like to watch it. Okay, that's not here or there, it's a matter of taste. But it's the only team they had in sports. They didn't have a baseball team, they didn't have a football team, nothing. So anyway, I made the team, and on the last day of the cuts, the coach looks at the team, he goes, you know, Prager made the team. We really scraped the bottom of the barrel. And in front of all of the kids, and I remember thinking, Do you know my reaction? Uh, so I—

right, yes, that was—

I was 16 years old and I remember vividly my reaction. This man is an a-hole. I use the word in my brain for saying that, but he's 100% right.

Yep.

And, and that's good. There was no, oh, you know, you're great, Dennis. Oh my God, we're gonna really— we're gonna go far with you. That— you're the man.

Yes. And you know what? There were times when I messed up a set and I got screamed at. I would also think, you know what? I just, I deserve this. But there were also times when a lot of the times when we'd have to stand outside doing streamline, the whole team was being punished cuz one guy messed up and it was this kind of like collective, no, no, they must have done mean things and wrong things. Yes. I knew.

Oh, so that re— that raises another interesting question. I— if I were the coach of some team, I couldn't be like that.

I could never be like—

I know, so, okay, right. So here's the question: does that profession draw a certain type?

Oh yeah. Oh, I could write a book on this one. I have had so many coaches in my day, and by the way, I've had great coaches in addition to terrible coaches. But yes, it's a certain type. I think a lot of coaches, and I say this with respect, again, I've had great coaches who have shaped my character, shaped, shaped me in many ways. But I think a lot of coaches go into that profession because sort of like, sort of for similar reasons that someone goes to work at the DMV. Power. They want to have their moment of being able to make your day or ruin your day.

I agree with you, and my analogy was not DMV. My analogy was prison guards.

Yep, I think they were.

There are undoubtedly wonderful people in the profession, but a lot are not. And the utter unquestioned authority they have over people, most human beings do not have over anyone. What a prison guard does over prisoners Which, by the way, now do you take back your worry about this?

All right, I take it back.

No, no, this is— I'll tell you, I said I would get back to this. Then I want to go to the power issue. As if I could write— you could write a book on coaches. I could write a book on being interesting, not only because I know I'm interesting. If I weren't interesting, I wouldn't have been on radio for 40 hours and people wouldn't read.

40 years. 40 years.

40 hours.

Yeah.

Oh, all right. 40, 40 years. Exactly. So I know what constitutes things being interesting. And here, this is very good for you and everybody listening to know this. And I'll tell you how I learned it. Do you know this about me? That I, when I went on boring dates when I was single.

Yes.

How I made them interesting.

Yes. You figure out why they're boring. That's right.

It was because it actually made boring dates—

I do that too—

fascinating.

You, of course, I interrogate them, right? Oh no, but the boring ones.

Yeah, well, that's because they're not interrogating you. That's one of the— that's the irony. So I really learned what rendered people boring. One of— there were a number of items, and I won't get into that now, but one of the items was they had no passions. And what renders a person interesting, one of the things, not the only, is passion. And I have the perfect example, a man named Leon Kaplan, who's got— thank God is still with us. He had a program on my former station, ABC Radio in LA. He was a nationally syndicated program. On cars. My interest in cars is zero. If it gets me from A to B, I'm a fan of that car, okay? I don't— I never subscribed to Motor Trend or Car and Driver, and I subscribe to everything, okay? I have no interest in cars. I always listen to his show. I mean, the guy would talk about fixing your carburetor. What the hell do I care? But he had passion. He was so passionate about his love of cars, it was infectious. And I remember thinking once, why the hell am I listening to this?

Gosh, I need to— I need to internalize that. I think sometimes on my show, or when I guest host, I'm so determined to give the audience useful information that I need to use more passion, because I am genuinely passionate. I love reading.

I love— anyway, that's the reason you you want to learn. It's because of your passion to make a better world and understand the world.

Right. But I'm so interested in making sure they come away with usefulness that maybe sometimes the passion gets lost.

I can't— that's an interesting question. I find you so interesting in large measure because I'm learning from you, and that's all I want to do. Look, you know, lefties are passionate about their awful causes. So that in and of itself, the lack of passion is more important than having passion, as odd as that sounds. In other words, laughing, lacking passion in real life. I'm not in radio or broadcasting, podcasting, whatever it might be. It's also But by passion, I don't mean yelling or— that it is clear you care about the subject, right? That, that's, that's what matters.

Yes. So going back, because I want to go back to the power. Oh, okay.

Remember I said that? Remember why you want to go back?

Sure.

The power thing is a very, very important subject. So I asked you about coaches. I, I'm sure you are right. You know where else I feel it? Sometimes when I see guards, or if that's what they're called, at crossings, you know, you come, let the children come, let's stop the cars.

Oh, yes.

Right. What are they called?

Cross guards. I think, right?

Crossing or crossing?

Crossing guards.

What are they called, Sean?

Cross guards.

What are they called? Sean said they're called fullbacks. I don't understand why he said that. Sean's not in a bullying mood today.

Sean Z.

All right. Anyway, yeah, crossing guard. So the The, uh, there are times when it is clear they're reveling.

Oh, you can tell?

Yes. Now, I'm not even— I'm not knocking them even. All I'm saying is there must be some urge in a lot of humans to have power over other humans. But, and here is the, the The key point I want to make in some of us, I don't think that exists. I have zero desire to have power over anyone.

Me too. I'm sorry to sound predictable because I usually agree with you and because we're so similar, but me too. I've never really desired that. I do desire influence over people.

But never power, right?

Honestly.

So I, and I don't think we're alone, by the way. I think we represent a fair percentage of people. So this is a huge point that I have thought about. All leftists, all by definition, and I'll explain that, want power over others. It is the, it is a defining element of all leftism. The proof? They want bigger and bigger government. We— our motto, the non-leftist motto, is leave me alone, right? I don't want power over you, and I don't want you to have power over me. Have a nice day. Yes, it's a huge issue.

Well, that's the pronoun stuff. I mean, a lot of it is a lust for power. Are there some people who genuinely think it is the compassionate thing to do to have everyone go around a circle and say their pronouns? Yes. But I think it's like they want a gotcha moment. They want an opportunity to proselytize you, to make demands of you, to affirm their moral superiority. And I think it's like they want to snap and have you jump. That's what all this social justice crap— I mean, I saw it during Black Lives Matter on social media. I mean, you saw it too, but I'm saying I saw it on this particular forum after George Floyd died. All of these mostly Black people, I will say, but also white people, but I tell the truth even when it's uncomfortable, mostly Black people on social media would say, if I don't see you posting Black squares, if I don't see you giving the Venmo receipt of your donations to BLM, if I don't see you standing up and condemning, you know, Derek Chauvin, I'm gonna expose you. I'm gonna put your name on my Instagram story. I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to unfollow you. I'm going to this. And then you saw all these white people like, oh my God, I don't want to be called a racist. I don't want to be this. And they would all jump however high people wanted them to jump. But I saw the way that instead of a lot of people really, again, both Black and white, wanting to take that moment and learn or teach people something in not a proselytizing way, in an earnest way, they used it as I have power over you now, and anything I say you have to do, or I'm going to call you this name and ruin your life. That's weird, and that's not genuine, right?

So it's part of— yes, the power issue. For those of us who don't have it, we, we don't even think about it, right? And yet the world is ruined by those who want power. Name me any good that comes from people who yearn for power. I can't think of anything good. I don't want power over you. Well, Bernie, I don't— forgive me. No, I don't want to control. The only time in my life is when I had a role of authority and had to— I had to control a classroom when I taught high school kids. I didn't love it. I didn't yearn for it, but I would fail at my task if I didn't control the classroom. If I didn't control my children's behavior, and it would only matter in the moral sphere, as I said, I would be a crappy parent. But beyond that, it doesn't register with me. Here is, and here's the darkest element, a rabbi/thinker, whom I knew many years ago. We've somewhat lost touch, and not for bad reasons, just the way life works. Anyway, he made a very interesting point that I never ever thought of, and he said— we were talking about torture. Prager Talk.

Again, happiness happens.

I know, yes, I think about stuff like that. And the thought that I would enjoy inflicting excruciating pain on another human being— right, exactly.

It's even— it's like telling me who I hate.

Yes, exactly. That's right.

I think deserve it.

That's correct.

Evil human beings.

I'm totally with you. Totally with you. So he had a very interesting theory. He said the torturer's high, so to speak, is because of the power.

I bet.

I never thought of that. I bet that's how powerful the yearning for power could be, how awful— powerful and awful it can be. But again, I just want people to understand that is a— the defining element of leftism. I will tell you how much This is their dream. I will tell you what temperature you can keep your house.

Yes.

I will tell you when you can drive your car.

You know, it's interesting. I remember being 6, 7, 8 years old and having those coaches screaming at me and thinking, this is, this is fucked up. I'm, I'm too young for them to be.

That's right.

And it was so interesting.

That's a great point.

Yes. And thinking, I'm 6, and you're right, 35.

Yes, right.

Why are you screaming? Why is this fun for you? And it was this kind of, you know, it's actually kind of cathartic for me to talk about this because as I get older, for— to be honest, for a lot of, for a lot of years, I really resented my swimming time. And when I would talk about it, I never cried, but I would, I would feel the tears kind of going up to my face because I would just remember really, really bad moments. But now that I'm older, and especially now that I'm in this job, as I said, I see how much those difficult moments made me who I am. And they actually— it's actually— it's a great blessing, really, because I sideswipe a lot of potentially difficult moments that would have crushed me now. But now I have the resilience to handle them because I endured them all those years ago. Like, but, but still, that doesn't negate the fact that I was 6 thinking, this is strange, this person has a bizarre desire to—

that is fascinating.

Why do you— I remember thinking, why are you so angry at me? And I rarely messed up, you know, a set, but, but there would be kids, you know, especially boys, like boys at 8 years old who would, you know, try to dunk each other in the water, or you just, you know, like put water into their mouth and try to make like a water fountain rainbow thing. They were just stupid little boys. And our coach would scream and throw the clipboard and have us stand outside in the cold because of those boys. And I just remember thinking like, why does it so incense you that kids are being kids?

Oh, you thought that?

That's, no, that, that's, this is bizarre. This is really weird.

Well, that, that means you were self-aware at a very early age. Totally.

But, but quickly, I want to outline just briefly how that experience has shaped me, because maybe I will have my kids play sport. I don't know. I'm sort of changing my mind here on the air because I'm realizing how much it helped me. The screaming. Now when people comment mean things— I had these girls, I think I said it on Dennis and Julia— these girls from my high school who I was once friendly with comment on my Instagram that I'm evil and I'm mentally ill and I'm spreading misinformation about minorities. A lot of people, that would break them. I just shrug it off. I'm like, I had grown men screaming at me from the time that I was 5. I can handle some little twerps.

And women.

And women, right. I can handle some little twerps. You learn how to stand up for yourself. I remember having a conversation with my soccer coach when I was 10 saying, you're too mean. I pulled her aside and I said, you are way too mean to us. There's a way to get across what you want without being so cruel. You learn even in swimming. Swimming is such an individual sport. I remember standing up on the block. It's all you in your lane. You've got to prove yourself. Talk about pressure. And they're going, take your marks. And you're literally on an elevated platform about to dive into the water. You learn how to how to take the heat. You learn how to take eyes on you. Getting up in the morning is nothing to me now because I had to get up at like 4 AM from the time that I was little to go play sports. Being exhausted, I know how to power through. Just so many things. And especially for this particular career, which is so much pressure, requires so much resilience and a strong core. I would not be me without that, without that bad experience. Mike Lindell has a passion to help you get the best sleep of your life. He didn't stop at the pillow. He also created the Giza Dream bed sheets. These sheets look and feel great, which means an even better night's sleep, which is crucial for our overall health. Mike found the world's best cotton called Giza. It's ultra soft and breathable but extremely durable. Mike's latest deal is the sale of the year. For a limited time, you'll receive 50% off of the Giza Dream sheets. Marking price is down as low as $29.98 depending on the size. Go to mypillow.com and click on the radio podcast square and use the promo code Hartman. There you'll find not only this great offer, but also deep discounts on all MyPillow products, including the MyPillow 2.0 mattress topper, MyPillow kitchen towel sets, and a lot more. Call 1-800-566-6745 or go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Hartman. And it's important to talk about because we live in this culture today where I think my coaches when I was young were too abusive, but something—

Right, this extreme is worse than that extreme.

Yes, exactly. We now live in this extreme.

Oh, you're terrific. You're a hero.

Yes.

You know, oh, it doesn't matter whether you win or lose. In sports, that's what matters.

Yes.

I'm sorry, it is what matters.

Yep.

That's the point of the game, is to win.

It—

but, but it is so common. Oh no, that— no, no, the point is to play. No, the point is to win. Of course playing is playing, and you enjoy playing, or you wouldn't be doing it theoretically, although you were swimming and didn't enjoy it, but that's a separate issue, right? But you loved winning. You acknowledged it.

And yes, I loved winning. And I played water polo, which it was another thing that helped me hugely, because you— do you know how physical water polo is?

I do. They try. Whenever I see water polo players, they look like mountains.

Yep. Oh, I know. They claw you. They grab, they kick. I got kicked in the gut so many times. And you know what you learn? You can't go, ref, the girl just kicked me in the gut. You know what you do? You swim after her and you kick her in the gut. Damn it. Like, you just learn. You just learn to be tough.

Maybe that's the reason. I may have said this to you. I keep saying that, so I shouldn't say it's awful. It's irrelevant to everybody else if I said it to you. But I remember speaking at Stanford quite a number of years ago. The Hoover Institution brought me in for a week to give lectures and to broadcast.

That's very prestigious.

Wow. It was?

Oh my God, the Hoover Institution.

Okay, good. I'm glad. All right. No, no, I met some wonderful people there, but it's not here or there. The only reason I'm mentioning it, although thank you for noting that, is that of all the people I interviewed, of the professors and students, the only conservatives— and I had no idea, this was an ex post facto realization— were the members of the sports teams.

Yes, that was the same thing at Harvard.

The athletes were the only conservatives.

That's the same thing at Harvard. All of the teams loved me. When I did the Wall Street Journal article, the little lacrosse team—

oh, I didn't know that. I did not know that. Yes, that's fascinating.

A lot of them were a part of this Final Club, and there was a party like 2 days after I published that article at the Final Club. And Harvard is so weird because they have these listed parties, which is this whole conversation unto itself, but I wasn't on the list of the party. And this guy, this athlete, I think it maybe was on the like hockey team or something, to the front door and I said, oh, I'm Julie Hartman, I'm not on the list. And he goes, you're the Harvard students are COVID sheep girl, come on in, high-fived me.

No kidding.

Yeah, and then he went, guys, this is the Harvard students are COVID sheep girl. Oh, they all loved it. Yeah, they were all conservative. They— I said what they wanted to say.

I love that story.

I know, I know.

COVID are COVID sheep girl.

Yeah, that was my—

does it— no, I hope everybody— and you wrote an article while at Harvard that your fellow students were sheep.

Yes. In the— yes, front, the main thing of the Wall Street Journal.

Yes. Oh, the sports teams, they loved me. Well, yes, because in sports, even the girls, there's no coddling in sports.

Exactly.

You win or you lose, end of issue.

Yes. And you know what, you actually alerted—

and there's no affirmative action.

Totally. Yes. And there's no— I mean, even thinking about water polo, it's kind of amazing to me because is we live in this culture where words can so offend and debilitate and tear people down. And then I think, like, so I kind of want to go to a high school water polo game to see if they still allow the stuff that I had to go through when I played water polo. Because as I said, you have no idea how physical it gets. And people break the rules all the time because you can't see under the water.

That's right.

They will, they will go out of their way to inflict physical pain on you, and you just expect expected that, and you had to deal with that.

So you see this now? Do you take back—

I take it back.

Thank you.

I do.

I take it back.

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Here's another realization from this discussion. I mean, or another illustration. I've realized this, but I realize it even more now. I have said for years, tough parents are much better than hugging, loving. I'm not saying you shouldn't love or hug your kids. I was a lover and a hugger, but tough parents are more important. Not abusive.

Right.

I always have to add this for the fools who don't understand what you're talking about. And here is a fascinating— you will love this. Because you have even been moved by this story of my wife, whom you know well. When she was 20 and a waitress in LA, the manager on occasion would grab her breasts. She would take his hands off her breasts and continue serving the meal, tell the guy, you know, buzz off or whatever it was. And that was it. She wasn't traumatized. She didn't go to court. She didn't accuse him of sexual aggression. And my wife is as tough as nails.

Yes.

But do you know why? I'm now— I'm putting two and two together. She had very tough parents.

And I had tough parents. Not abusive, but tough.

Right. And the coaches.

And the coaches.

And I had tough parents.

I mean, my parents growing up, and they're wonderful parents, they were never, ever abusive to me. Not one time. That they would not hesitate to, to, to yell at me when I did something wrong.

I have a friend—

they gave me timeout. They would—

that's right. I have a friend, wonderful human being. I'll just leave it at that, and then so nobody knows who I'm talking about. And but I know him very well and know him long. His parents were only loving, and he He did not become a fighter. And he's a wonderful human being with wonderful values. But he doesn't want to take the arrows of the world. They didn't prepare him for the world's arrows.

Boy, this is so interesting that we started off this conversation by your asking me how I would raise my kids, because I do want— and I said I want to, you know, exact standards. I, and as you heard, I sort of had more of this idea that I'd give them a more relaxed upbringing than the one I had.

I don't know anymore.

I don't know anymore.

Well, you see, it's an interesting question. I was hard on my kids, but admittedly only in the ethical realm, not, not schoolwork. I was a very abnormal parent. I didn't give a damn about their grades. I just didn't. By the way, it is— you'll get a kick out of this, and it just shows how open I was. People always say, so what's the difference between your show and Dennis and Julie? And I say, as open as I am, and I am on my own show, I'm even more open because with Julie it just comes out. So this is not something I could imagine saying. I mean, theoretically I could, but it wouldn't have been drawn out. So my older son said to me years ago, and he's a truly, you know, he's a wonderful human being, and he's a married dad with two kids, and he's a good soul and a very successful soul. Anyway, so There is no child on earth that does not have some complaint about their parents. That human being has not been invented, nor will that person ever be born. Okay, just want to make that clear. So I don't know how it happened, and he knows he could say anything to me. So I was— so I said, so what about me? Well, what, what did I do in your— in your view, what did I do wrong? And he said, I'll tell you that. Said, I wish you would have pressured me more to do well in school.

Hmm, why?

That's, that's ironically exactly what I thought. You know, you're a pretty damn successful guy, you're an extremely hard worker, you're doing quite well, you have a great family life. What ex— how did I mess up with So did you ask him why?

What did he say?

You know, I'm pretty happy with how you turned out with all my non-pressure on homework. And I don't remember his response. I will. I will ask him the next time I see him. But it's— that's all I'm saying. That's proof that I didn't push in those arenas. But he would not. Otherwise think, you know, I was, oh, whatever you do, Dave, you're terrific. There was no such message from me. You're terrific. You're, you're this. I laughed at his participation trophy the day he got it. I said, what the hell? You, your team came in last. Why do you have a trophy?

Mm-hmm.

Now, by the way, he agreed, but it's good that I made that point.

Yes.

Most parents would not mock the trophy.

Yep.

I mocked my son's trophy. That's, that's almost called abusive today, you know.

Oh gosh, bingo. This shows how relaxed we are. Yes, totally went right out.

And that we get so into the subject on the end. I wish you would remember. I'll give you 5 minutes, you know, I'll pack my bag.

It went right out of my brain the second I opened my mouth.

So by the way, here's a trick for you Remember the word.

Yes, I know.

Make a mental— I, I remember that I wanted to go back to power because I, I kept the word power in my brain.

I remember.

Yeah.

And you know the word Sue? I just remembered it.

Oh, okay.

Oh, so it was Sue's? Yes. Okay. It— when you were talking about your wife having, you know, the guy put his hands on his breast or her breast and she just threw them off, you know, I think about my swimming years And there I could say that I was verbally abused. And frankly, it actually wouldn't— it wouldn't be an exaggeration at all. Yes, I could say starting from the time that I was 5 years old, I was physically— I was verbally abused by coaches. And I, you know, and then in water polo, I was physically abused. You know what? First of all, it doesn't even occur to me to say something like that. It sounds so absurd, right? It doesn't even occur to me. And you know another reason why I don't do that, in addition to just my nature? I just wouldn't anyway. I don't do that for me. I am the one who gets harmed by that.

Oh, bless you.

But this is what I wish people understood, right? You making yourself a victim harms you. That's right. It doesn't harm or exact punishment, even if the perpetrator— even if that perpetrator, you know, using those terms and blinking quotation marks, deserves punishment. My lamenting those coaches, I can't go get in contact with them and make them feel bad. You know, like, it doesn't change that it happened. It doesn't affect them. The only thing it would do is drag me down and make me think of myself as someone who is oppressed and who has a cloud hanging over their head and who, because of this, is unable to succeed. I don't entertain that stuff for selfish reasons, and I wish the victim e-left would see it the same way.

So important.

And that's why Sue— and by the way, that guy who did that, he, he was wrong. Was he sexually assaulting her?

Right.

No. Was he sexually harassing her? Yes. Was that wrong? Of course.

But there are gradations of wrong.

Of course there is. But Sue doesn't— I know her so well, like me, she doesn't even consider it a possibility to victimize herself.

Exactly.

But she would be— she would be the one dragged down by it.

So you will love this because this is another of the pathology of the left. Not talking about liberals, but again, the left. It applied to some liberals, but it is left. So I wrote about Sue and the guy who grabbed her breasts.

Yes.

Many, many years ago in a column. So, you know, I read comments. The— not only comments, but my article was cited to show how awful I am.

What a chauvinistic—

Well, I don't even remember whatever, but one of the things was, why is it admirable that his wife was not more disturbed by— that's not admirable. The woman was attacked and she lives in denial about it. Oh, of course. And she said, oh, and the other great argument was, well, if she'd have, you know, reported him, then she would have saved another waitress from having— about being sexually assaulted. So in other words, there is your— by really being disturbed By what is essentially an inconsequential act. By the way, let me just say as a man, A, I never did that. B, I cannot even imagine doing it. And C, it's just uncouth and wrong. You're a boar. B-O-O-R. Nevertheless, in the realm of life's evils, it is really, really low.

Yes. You know, I would love if I had the opportunity to do a study and take these individuals who we see on college campuses who protest you and Charlie Kirk at ASU, or who, you know, those students that walked up to Candace at, what was it, like, University of Albany, and Candace said, get a helmet, man. Remember that? I would love to take like a random sampling of 100 of those, those individuals and just ask them some questions. Did you ever play a sport? Did you ever have, you know, did you ever have a teacher or a coach treat you unfairly? Of course, they'd probably say, yes, the teacher took a point off because I did. You know, they would make something up. But I would really want to understand, did you— have you ever really had a tough experience in your life? I would suspect that a lot of them haven't.

Well, tough in the sense of quote-unquote somewhat mistreated.

Yes, like, like truly being treated unjustly. Yes. No, a parent dies, of course, of course. Or, you know, anything, money problems. I get that. But that's— thank you for clarifying. You're right. Like, have you ever had an experience in your life where you really felt you were treated unfairly, and did you move on?

So to put this all together, you will get another fun insight here. Remember I said I hate having power over others, and I want no one to have power over me, just God if you really push it. And my ache, my built-in loathing of being controlled is part of why I always hated communism. And I know for a fact, to the best of one's ability to know something that didn't happen, I know because I went to communist countries a lot. I know that I would have spent my life, uh, either, either in a gulag if I lived under a communist regime, or I would have been killed. I could not have kept quiet at a society of lies and control of the individual. Do you know, you'll get a kick out of this, I rented a car in the Soviet Union one of my trips there. The company was incredibly poorly run. They didn't know what the hell they were doing. And they screwed up on something. And I speak Russian, not fluent, but I speak Russian. And I yelled at them. I actually, and I don't yell often at people.

No, you don't.

But I was so annoyed with their incompetence. And I yelled at them and I actually said, now you're the only rental company because this is a communist country. So no one can go to another company because you screwed up. Now you know why I believe in capitalism. You can go to another company.

Wow, how did they— that was gutsy of you to do. I know you could have been punished.

Well, theoretically, but I had American passport. It wasn't that courageous, but it was, it was, it was gutsy. But my only point is, can you imagine if I lived under that system? If I got angry over the crappy rental car, how I would get angry over all of life?

Yep.

That's why I hate the left. The left— there is no example of the left not controlling people. There is no example of them not suppressing dissent. People know nothing about history. Nothing.

No, I know. And you know what is so— I was I was thinking this the other day as I was driving, and it hit me like a lightning bolt. Out of— I mean, we should be— we in 2023, and we in America in 2023, should be the most enlightened, well-read, wise people to ever grace God's green earth, because we have— we are the beneficiaries of centuries and centuries and centuries of human existence before us that we can look back and learn from. We are also the beneficiaries of amazing technology that makes understanding the past— you can go online and learn. You can go and order, you know, Solzhenitsyn's book and have it at your doorstep tomorrow morning. You can listen to Elie Wiesel's Night on your phone. I mean, My God, we have not only so much time before us of different societies, different peoples, different events, different, you know, the ways to react to things, to look from, but we have the technology to access it. And yet we are some of the most ignorant people who've ever lived. And going back to the, I guess, one of the themes of the episode, having a charmed, accessible, plentiful, blessed life sometimes isn't the best thing.

I have actually asked on the radio the childhood question. That's right.

I knew, I knew you were gonna say childhood, all that great.

Now I don't— I— and it sounds so— of course, isn't that great? I don't know. Does it prepare you for life? I don't know. If the question is not Not to imply I know the answer is no. Maybe the answer is yes. There is a middle road. I don't think you should have it— obviously not an abused child. That's awful. That can be permanently crippling, right? But, uh, easy and just happy, it doesn't seem to work out that well. You know, to your point, you're an example. I'm an example. Sue is an example.

To your point about how sometimes really awful things can cripple you, I want to go back because I want to be fair. When I was saying I'd like to take a random sampling of 100 protesting leftists, and I think I said something like, I doubt they've really had an experience where they've been treated unfairly. I would venture to say this. Either I'm right and many of them haven't had experiences where they've been treated unfairly, which is separate from having difficulty or tough things in life, but, or they've had it so much that now they're really fucked up. I wouldn't be shocked if some of them had terribly abusive fathers or something, you know. So anyway, I just want to make that clear because I don't want to assume—

abused by her father.

Was she?

Yeah. And she's so healthy. And by the way, interestingly, she— though he never apologized, she forgave him. I don't believe we have the right to forgive others what they did to others, but we do have the right to forgive those who've hurt us. And she did. And it's— nothing is inevitable. You— let's end with this because this is so empowering. I hate the word, but it is. And, and it is almost never said: we choose all our reactions.

Yes.

If you're hurt, you choose to be hurt. You choose to be happy or unhappy. You choose to be grateful. Everything ultimately is a choice.

On that note, those who haven't read Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, I highly recommend it for many reasons, but especially to really understand this point. And I credit you, Dennis, because you said that was one of the books that influenced you the most. I read it and obviously influenced me hugely. Viktor Frankl writes about the utter, I mean, abuse and degradation and evil in these concentration camps. And those are obviously words of understatement. There are no words to describe just how depraved it was. And he writes that the one thing that he found empowering— again, I hate that word too— but the one thing that he could cling to to get through it was that he had a choice as to how to react to it. I mean, think about that. That is an amazing thing. They took away their clothes, their names. You just had a tattooed number. Your, your items, your hair, your— the fat on your skin, these, you know, your dignity— they were reduced literally to skeletons. And Viktor Frankl said, and it made the biggest impression on me, he said, the thing that kept us from becoming like animals in the camp when we were treated like animals was holding on to our moral fiber, having that choice as to how to react, maintaining our set of standards. And he talks about how he would want to steal a ration of bread from someone else. But he realized, no, that's wrong to do. And by maintaining my moral fiber, that is the way that I triumph over the animalistic degradation to which I am subjected. And so if he can, you know, find the strength of character to have the choice to react to Nazis, we can do it when a microaggression is levied against Long live my swimmer. No, you're a former—

you know, I never saw you swim. You have no idea.

I have videos. I have videos.

That'll suffice. I'm so curious. But you never go now, right?

I, I, I never went in the pool at Harvard, and I will probably never go in an Olympic swimming pool again. I love a hot tub, and I love the ocean. I love the ocean. I love snorkeling. So it's not all lost.

All right, this was a good one.

This was a good one. Thank you all so much for being here, and thank you for writing to me. It's painful beyond belief. I understand you now because you get probably 10 times the mail I get and you can't respond.

It's painful that I can't respond, but sometimes I get a mail from a Julie Hartman.

That's right, and I get a lot of similarly great pieces of mail. So please keep writing to me at julie@julie-hartman.com. You can forward it to me if I didn't respond respond. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRHartman. You can follow Dennis on Instagram @TheDennisPrager. And we'll see you back here every Monday for Dennis and Julie at 1:00 Pacific, 4:00 Eastern on the Julie Hartman YouTube channel.

But before we go, I need to bang my microphone one more time. Okay.

I don't even notice when you do it anymore.

He does.

Shalom.

He rolls his eyes. Bye, everybody.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and 1/3 aren't sure.

Why?

Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian Values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.