Dennis & Julie: Exciting versus Enduring

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hey everybody, Dennis Prager with Julie Hartman. Dennis and Julie, one of my favorite hour and 12 minutes of the week.

Me too.

Isn't that amazing?

Yes. And what's also amazing is that we actually do probably 3 or 4 Dennis and Julies a week that are not recorded because we talk on the phone so often. And sometimes— I don't know if you think this— sometimes when we're done speaking, I'm like, wish that were recorded.

Really?

Yes.

That's an interesting point.

But you know what's also great? We are very personal on this show. There's really I can't think of many things that we talk about privately that we wouldn't talk about publicly.

That's— I think people understand that. That's why that guy called me, and I've talked about this a lot, said, I have a great word for you, Dennis: transparent. Because I decided early on in my career that as unnatural as it seems Because you people obviously hide parts of their lives from, from others. I thought I'm going to hide as little as possible. That's why people say to me more often than any other things when strangers meet me, you know, I feel like I really know you. And I, I'm sorry. And I say, you do.

I can attest to that as someone who knows you off the air as well as on the air. Listeners really do know you. It's also just easier being transparent because it's— I can imagine that it's difficult to have to think, oh, did I say that? Should I say this?

Right.

It's just kind of your default.

It's like it's easier to be faithful than have an affair. The— aside from all the moral issues and the hurt of my spouse, all of that stuff putting aside, and they're all real. A major reason not to have an affair is because of the amount of hiding you have to do and lying. It is not possible to have an affair and not become a serial liar.

Well, one lie begets another lie, which begets another. It has to. I mean, if you say, I was at the doctor's, and they say, how was it? And then you go, yeah, let's say your wife runs into the doctor, you know, like It just, it's this tangled web of deceit that's, I can imagine, difficult to keep up.

You know, in that regard, it's amazing how our conversations just develop. So I'm gonna say something that will strike people at the outset as odd at best and maybe even bad at worst. So when I meet somebody who's having an affair, because people open up to me, um, in most instances my first reaction— I may know more and change my reaction— is I feel bad for them. I obviously feel bad for the spouse, that's a given. But my sense is— and I, by the way, I believed this when I was your age, well before I was ever married— I sensed that most people who have an affair, it is not because they're bad. And oh my God, I can't believe I'm saying this to you. One of my favorite Bible commentaries is by Richard Elliott Friedman. He is a brilliant scholar, University of California San Diego. Now I think he's at the University of Georgia, a major biblical scholar. And if I say that, you can believe me because I know my Bible. And he's written a commentary on the Torah which I love. I love it. And obviously I'm writing my own, so I refer to his Under Adultery. In other words, the commandment thou shalt commit adultery. He wrote— I wish I had the entire— I could find it, and but we don't have breaks during Dennis and Julie, but I would like to read it exactly. But he wrote And I just read this to my synagogue this past Sabbath. I read his, his line about this, that good people commit adultery, and he italicized good. And I thought that this guy's human, and I've been faithful, so this— I have no self-interest in this. But to assume that everybody who commits adultery is evil is, is beyond simplistic. It's, it's a— you commit murder, okay, if that's not evil, you could say, well, you could say a good person could commit evil, I could commit murder. It's a, it's a bit of a stretch. It could happen, but generally speaking, that's not true. But anyway, good, good people who commit adultery. And by good, I mean the non-serial adulterers, people who just go from affair to affair. I have no defense of as a human being.

You mean like a one-time thing?

Yes, or fell in love. If somebody falls in love with somebody else while married, it usually means there's a lot problematic in the marriage. People in love with their spouse don't fall in love with another spouse.

Okay, this is such a good topic, and I want to pause and say what we always say: we had no idea that we were going to discuss this. I, I love that about this show. It just blossoms because it's real. It's real. It's— and it's incredibly spontaneous. Okay, a lot, a lot of questions. This is where I'm going to evoke the, what do you call your radio show? The Human Laboratory. This is where this is particularly useful. So most people who tell you about their infidelity, I'm assuming most of them are male, or is it?

Yes, that's correct.

What would you say the percentage is?

So of those who tell me? Yes, it's high. It's 75% male. Yeah.

Okay. And usually do they tell you that they're unhappy in their marriage?

Yeah.

And what is the most cited reason for the unhappiness?

They don't, they don't feel loved by their spouse.

Loved in what way?

You're tough.

Oh, I'm not trying to be tough.

It is tough because you're all right.

Maybe. Okay, you don't want to go there.

We don't have to go there. It's genuine. Nowhere I don't want to go anyway. Even if I don't want to go, I go there.

That's true.

So, okay, for the record, generally speaking, a man who feels sexually fulfilled with his wife is going to stay faithful. This is so foreign to women that they just have to take my word for it. That's not how women think. Women do not have affairs because they're not sexually fulfilled by their husband. Some might, I fully acknowledge, but they, they don't feel emotionally fulfilled. That, that's much more a, a woman's reason. And I have just as much sympathy for her as for him. That it's not— all I'm saying is, and I don't even remember how we got on this, but it's amazing.

How did we?

Yeah, it's funny, I usually remember the genesis of a subject, but I, I— all I'm saying is, when I meet people my first reaction is not, wow, that's evil. If I met a murderer, yeah, or not even a murderer, frankly, doctors who give hormone blockers to 10-year-olds are doing evil. I have much more contempt for them than for somebody who had an affair.

Okay, so let me ask you this. Let's say you got a call from a guy who was 5 years into his marriage. He has 3 or 2 young children, and he calls you and he goes, Dennis, I am not happy in my marriage. It's not awful, but I'm not happy, and I have my eyes on another woman. What do I do? Do I stay in my marriage that's unhappy, or do I leave because I'm unhappy?

I'd say do everything possible to make yourself happy in your marriage, which by the way involves obviously working it through with your wife, but it also involves working it through with yourself. So I, I'm a guy's guy. I really— I'm, I'm, I'm as male as they come, so men really relate to me. Happily, a lot of women do too, but it's not the same thing. That's, you know, male, male is not the same as female, male. Okay, so men, I understand men really well, and I explain men to women. So both sexes have to adopt the Prager notion of not having too many expectations. I think it's fair to say nobody says this because this sex is ironic. We have a sexually drenched society and yet people talk, never talk honestly about it.

That's so— that is very well said.

It's, it's mind-boggling. It's mind-boggling.

You're so right. And people get upset when you talk about it. That's right, because I'm honest.

Yes. So here, sexually drenched, here are some—

yes, so true.

So here is something I would say to men. Guys, just know you are not going to have the sexual life you fantasized, uh, in, in the vast majority of cases. It's just the way it works.

You mean when you get married?

Yeah, when you get married. I'm sorry, that's right, I wasn't clear. Yes, when you get married. And therefore, you enjoy what you have. Now, obviously, that— I'm not going to give it a time factor limit. It's different when you're 25 than when you're 55 or 75. All of that is, all of that is real. But I, I, I remember when I was in high school thinking, Wow, to be married. God, you have this woman anytime you want.

Oh gosh, such a male thought. This—

exactly. This was worth the entire broadcast, my comment and your reaction.

I think I represent all women.

Yes, exactly. And I represent all men. That, that's the point. So that was my fantasy in high school. Oh my God, it must be the greatest possible situation being married. She's there whenever you want her. So men—

I just looked at the camera.

So men have to understand it's not going to be that way. Are there exceptions? I'm talking in general. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule in life. So I really ought to— if I had the time, I would write an advice book to men.

Oh, you really should.

Yes.

Who is it? George Gilder wrote that man book?

Yeah, yeah, that man book, right? Right. Sexual Suicide.

Yes.

Naked Nomad.

Yes.

Yeah, he deeply influenced me. So I would— I— men need to understand, by the way, we all need to understand what— I don't know what women's fantasies are about marriage. Her fantasies are not likely to be fully realized either. So it's best probably not to have fantasy. Well, I don't care if you have fantasies. It's fine to have a fantasy life, but in the sense of directing you in your emotional reaction is not a good idea.

And in your reality, it can't, it can't direct your reality.

Exactly.

Too much.

That's right. So I, I have told men that— I'll tell you where I feel for men, you know, and that is if they're married to a woman. I'm just talking the sexual arena now. If they're married to a woman who doesn't take care of herself physically, see, that's given the power of looks. In the human species, it's the female that attracts the male. I know there are gorgeous men who attract women, but most men are not gorgeous. What attracts men— what attracts women to men is not their— that they're gorgeous, okay? It's just the general— certainly when they're, you know, reached by age of 30. A high school girl is going to go, oh God, is he gorgeous? Oh God, you know, but so on. That's fine, that's part of life. But the need— the man— one of the biggest ways you show you love your husband is by taking care of yourself physically, trying to look good. And the proof is you tried to look good when you dated. Why did you stop trying once you got married? That's not fair to him.

You're right. And it's not fair when men have B.O. and also don't take care of themselves, which I know you recognize.

No, of course. But that's not, that's not the same thing.

It's not.

No, B.O. holds for both. But, but, you know, looking, looking gorgeous or as gorgeous as you can. I mean, looking looking cute. In peacocks, the male has the feathers, right? The female. In humans, the female attracts the male. It's just the way it works. And if she succeeds in doing it, he gets aroused and they make the next generation. That is how human sexuality works.

I really love what you said a few minutes ago about we live in this over-sexualized society that also gets so upset when people like you and me talk about sexual matters. Not to overhype our importance, but people who are brave enough to talk about sex within— with a Judeo-Christian good values worldview are so valuable. I don't understand.

Yeah, but a lot of them do, but they're not real. A lot of the religious people who talk about sexual matters are not rooted in the real world.

So what is an example?

Masturbation.

Wow, welcome to Dennis and Julie.

Okay, but the proof is nobody, nobody feels that they could talk about it.

Yes, that's true.

I mean, I, I debated a guy, very religious guys, seen by hundreds of thousands of people. It's on the internet. He said masturbation is evil, and he's speaking from a religious point of view. Evil? I said, I looked at him and I said, evil? I mean, if he says it's a sin, fine. Every religion has a whole list of sins, but evil? And I challenged him. I said, are you serious? It's evil? I mean, child molestation is evil. Genocide is evil.

I know, it keeps him in charge.

Of course it does. So religious, you're right about the Judeo-Christian values perspective. Unfortunately, a lot of religious people have made religion look silly and people have therefore rejected it.

You know, you're right. I think a lot of people point to something like that and go, that's just— that's, that's too far for me. It's too far.

Exactly.

It's, it's difficult, the job of being religious, because you obviously want to promote good values, but you also want to be real and recognize that there are certain thoughts and proclivities and actions that a lot of human beings partake in. And so it's about mitigating the— I was going to say mitigating the harm of those, but allowing them to happen as long as they don't go too far or as long as they're not harmful.

Yeah, that's right. So people should read a book by an Orthodox rabbi, Shmuley Boteach, who's a well-known rabbi. B-O-T-E-A-C-H. In English, Boteach, but it's pronounced Boteach. And it's called Kosher Sex. It's a great book.

That's a good title.

Great title. And he, his whole thesis is you keep sex within a marriage, but within a marriage, do whatever the hell you want, providing the other person agrees, obviously. And, you know, as raunchy as it may sound to the outsider, if you two agree to it, the only restriction is that it's not with another.

Right. You know, God, of course. And I forgot my train of thought. I just— I really marvel at how real this is. And sometimes when you make these comments, I think, God, he is gutsy. He really goes there.

You know why I'm gutsy? I want to tell you, this is very revealing about me. People will take it for what it's worth. I decided very early in my life, if I want to do good in this world— and that's all I've ever wanted to do— I will not shy away from putting myself out there and knowing I'm going to get slapped. And that's the reason I do it. It's not fun to talk about masturbation. But I know how many people are traumatized by the message, you're doing evil. And it makes religion and God look bad. And I don't like that.

And here's the thing also, it's uncomfortable to acknowledge, but it's the truth. People do the— like, I mean, this is the whole point of the conversation. People do these things. What are we going to pretend like they don't exist? We have to deal with them. And I think it's cowardly to run away. I look, I, I have told you, Dennis, that I grew up in a house that didn't talk about these matters. And I'm grateful, actually, because I think there are certain boundaries that ought to be respected. And I— there's a time and a place to discuss things like this. But we do have that forum to do it. And I don't understand. I don't understand when people deny reality. We are seeing the harm in the United States today of denying reality, including in the sexual arena. I mean, that's this whole hookup culture thing. By contorting reality to make women believe that they want sex as much as men is harming women, plain and simple. It is. Is it uncomfortable to acknowledge the reality of males' extreme sexual proclivities? Yes, but we have to. Because we're seeing the consequences when we don't. So I applaud you. And I do think sometimes I'm like, wow, he's really going there. He's gutsy. But people need a good role model for things that matter.

Well, you don't make a good world if you're not gutsy.

True.

You can't build a good world on cowardice.

And it's so hypocritical because people have sex, people do these things. And I dislike the people that are on some kind of moral high ground when they talk about this stuff. It's like, please, you do it too. You're a human being. Don't act like you don't partake in these things that you decry.

Right. And some of them probably don't. But my question is, are they better human beings in general? You know, we— I talked— I said to you what Richard Elliott Friedman said, that a lot of people who commit adultery are good people. Yeah, because it's its weakness more than anything, or, or something else. I'm not talking about serial adulterers, right? So everybody heard of Schindler's List. You heard of—

oh, of course, right?

Oskar Schindler was this German, a Nazi in fact, a businessman who saved 1,000 Jews single-handedly. It's incredible. It's a great movie. He was a serial adulterer.

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And I'll bet a lot of the, uh, a lot of the Some religious folks in Germany who didn't masturbate because it was a sin didn't do a damn thing for Jews.

Probably right.

Yeah, uh, you know, so then people say, oh, you know, he's pro-pornography. I think if all pornography disappeared, I would be thrilled. It would have no—

also, when you were—

it would have no effect on the amount of masturbation.

Well, when you were making those comments, you were not thinking of the way pornography is today, which is truly awful. So, okay, so another question for you, and this is something I actually got an email from a viewer about this. We— maybe it was you or I, I can't remember which one— said this a few episodes ago offhandedly, and someone caught it and said, I'd like you to expand on that. I think it was you that said, all is fair in love and war before marriage. And I think we were talking about, I think it was in our hookup culture episode, and we were talking about dating and finding the right person. And I don't know, I think I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. Like, what if someone is in a relationship and they're unhappy and they see another woman who they may want to be with, is it permissible to leave that girlfriend that they're with for the other person?

You mean leave permanently or leave for the night?

Oh, not for the night. I, I think you and I would agree that's, that's bad.

Wait, so are you asking, is it permissible to break up if you have a girlfriend?

I don't follow. If you are in a relationship and you have a girlfriend and you, and you see someone comes along who you think is better, right, do you think you ought to honor your girlfriend and try to continue to work things out, or should you feel free to leave?

My general belief, which is contrary to what people— most people think, is that's the reason we have marriage. If you're not married, I don't believe the same rules hold. You can— now, if the two of you agree to a rule book, then what am I going to say? You can violate your own rules, but that's why people get— that's one of the reasons people get married. Then you can't do what you just said. Well, here, I think I'm more real— not more realistic, but another good way of posing this question. I'm a woman, or I'm a man, and I'm attracted to— I go to school and I I like this guy, I like this girl, but they're in a serious relationship. Can I ask them out? Can I flirt with them? Whatever it might be.

Yeah, that's interesting. Can you?

Yes. If you're in a serious relationship, I believe it's up to that person to say, I'm sorry, you're a wonderful person, I'm even attracted to you, but I'm committed to my girlfriend or my boyfriend. You— it's up to you to say no. It is not up to the potential dater. If you're not married, you're— you're, in my opinion, you are available for dating. That's why there's marriage. You're not available for dating if you're married.

It's interesting because I do believe that— well, first of all, if you are unhappy in your relationship, whether you're dating or whether you're married, you should I believe you should try to work it out and do not have an affair until you are broken up with that person. Marriage is— I'm not condoning affairs in marriage. I recognize that marriage is a little different when there are kids involved. And you may just really not want for your kids' sake to leave. Again, I'm not condoning affairs here, but I think it's a more delicate situation. But in both cases, I think you ought to break up before you move on. And I do also believe that dating is kind of a microcosm of marriage. I don't know if that was the right term. It's basically like a dress rehearsal for marriage, and you should treat your girlfriend or your boyfriend the way that you would strive one day to treat your husband or your wife. But I also hear what you're saying, because there is a reason why marriage is different than dating. With marriage, you have entered—

Ask anyone who dated seriously, even 5 years, 10 years, and then got married. If it's the same thing, it's—

I, I like this.

This is my girlfriend. This is my wife. Hello. It's different.

I appreciate this subject because I have seen this so much in my own life among people who are dating, and there's this kind of like, people like to look around while they're in a relationship And I always morally didn't know how to feel about that because I feel like if you're going to look around when you're dating, then you're going to look around when you're married. But then, as we keep saying, there is a difference between marriage and dating. So you think it's fine to kind of look around?

I have always thought of this question in terms of the outsider asking someone for a date who is, who is in a relationship. That is, that to me is permissible. You can't ask a married person out on a date. That's not permissible. From the, from the perspective of the person in the relationship is what you're asking.

Oh, interesting. Wait, sorry, I want to go back. Okay, I'm now understanding your earlier comment. So you, you were considering it from a girl or a guy who is being hit on by someone who's in a relationship.

Yeah, I'm the hitter. I'm considering, is it right or wrong to ask a non-married person who is in a relationship out on a date? And I say, I'm saying it is.

I see. Okay.

They have, and I said, they have the perfect right to say, I'm sorry, I'm in a committed relationship. Thank you for asking. That's fine. You can say that. But if you're not married, I do believe that it is not immoral for somebody to ask you out on a date. If you are married, it's not moral.

Okay. This is interesting, and I agree with you. I think it's okay if someone outside of a relationship is asking someone in a relationship or indicating their interest.

Yes.

But now I want to consider it from the person. What if, what if the person inside the relationship is asking about the inside?

I was. And I think about the outsider. So it's a— the answer is there is no the answer, but a somewhat obvious answer would be if you two have made a rule, we do not date anybody else, and you sort of, so to speak, shook hands on it.

But that's what— sorry to interrupt you, but that's what dating is. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure nowadays there are people who are boyfriend and girlfriend, but they're in an open relationship. But I don't think you need to— I don't know, when you're establishing that you're dating someone, I think that's the whole— the whole point is that you are monogamous and that you're not— you're with one another.

Yeah, I don't know if it's the whole point, but it is a point. Look, I'm radically pro-marriage. If you're not, it's not the same thing to be seriously committed and married. It's just you're saying it's the same thing. I don't think it is.

No, I'm actually not.

You are. Tell me how they're different. Oh, neither one is allowed to date the married or the person in the committed relationship. You are saying there's no difference.

I think there is a difference in this realm.

How?

In—

I want to be clear, in the realm of dating. Yeah, I do think there it is less morally abhorrent to look around and potentially leave your relationship because you have not made that final commitment when you are dating. Yes, we do agree. When I— what you were saying was if you and your girlfriend have a rule that you won't date anyone, anyone else, my, my comment to you was I don't think people who are dating on top of that have a rule, we're not going to see anybody else. I think the presumption is given, it's taken as a given.

Yeah, but if then what they're saying is, in terms of fidelity, there was no difference between marriage and relationship.

This is so interesting. So I mean, I agree with you, I do, that marriage is different than dating.

But then, but you can't pinpoint a single difference in terms of dating. Well, he is committed and she is committed in their monogamy. You're using the word monogamous. I thought monogamy has to do with marriage. You've been telling me it has to do with relationship.

I'm really conflicted on this subject because as I've said many times, I do believe there's a difference between being married and dating. But also, you're right, I can't quite pinpoint I mean, I can tell you the difference.

The difference is it's a bigger commitment, marriage, than monogamous dating. Period. End of issue. It's a bigger difference.

It is. You're right. Well, what's interesting today, I actually did it.

That's why people should get married. If you really want a fidelity relationship, give marriage a try.

Well, interestingly, I did a show recently on, on my show, Timeless, shameless plug, about weddings. And how they've changed. And one of the biggest ways that they have changed is that the religious and the spiritual no longer play a big role in wedding ceremonies. I think according to TheKnot.com, one-fifth of heterosexual marriages in the United States today are conducted by a priest, minister, or rabbi or other religious— only one-fifth, only one-fifth. And that's— it was 50% in 1980 and it was like 88% in 1900. So it's gone way down. And there are these elements of the ceremony that are changing. For instance, it's more and more of a trend for the bride not to wear white. It's still a small percentage. I think it's actually also around 20% of brides who don't wear the white dress, but still it's ever-growing. And what I argued was that the reason why we're seeing all of these changes away from the religious and spiritual and towards more of just a party is that marriage is no longer a sacred transformation of a relationship. That's how I define marriage, because that's a good—

good— sacred transformation is good—

of a relationship.

Yes, that backs up my point.

It does. It does.

By the way, I just have to add, if you're both, uh, 60 and you, you've been together for 20 years, not married, I don't think you should be out there looking for, for hot dates. Okay, I want to make that clear.

Why not? Why can't 17-year-olds—

the emotional hurt would be similar as if you were married.

True.

But I would also say to people who are 60, why didn't you get married? See, this is enough. And this is another subject aside from the dating one. Marriage is important for society. We have no— the left has told us you and your feelings are all that matter. In Judaism, you get married for the sake of the society as much as for your sake.

Well, we don't consider any— I mean, we don't consider that we have any responsibility beyond ourselves nowadays.

That's correct.

We think we advance ourselves and we advance our families. There's no sense of we advance society, culture, right? Sadly. But going back to what I was saying about, about weddings, they're no longer a sacred transformation of a relationship because so many norms today that once were saved for marriage are now exercised and practiced by people who are dating. Intercourse before marriage, living together before marriage. The— I mean, there are more, according to Pew— you see, this is fresh in my mind because I just did the episode— there are more American adults aged 18 to 45 that have lived with someone, i.e., not married but have lived with a spouse, than there are in that category who are actually married. I mean, things are changing so rapidly. A lot of people have kids before marriage. Nowadays. So I guess with, with dating and marriage now, there's— people don't see a lot of difference, but you and I do.

That's right. And, and partially because we, we may have a religious sense of the sanctity of marriage. There's no sanctity in secular society. Nothing is sacred. By definition, it's not even a criticism. It's just the way it works.

Okay, so if you are a person outside of a relationship, it's okay to solicit or intrigue someone inside one. But let's say you're inside one. You're a guy, you've been dating this girl for what, 2 years, 3 years? And you see someone else. And you're happy with that person, but you see someone else who you want to date. What do you do?

Okay, you have the right, in my opinion, much more so than if you were married, to say, look, I'm not— we're not married, and I will I will throw the dice. Please understand, I would say to this person, you are probably going to end your relationship that you're in if you do that. This will kill this relationship. So you are betting on the unknown, which is rarely, but on occasion it works out. But please you know, you use your head and understand something. You have a right as a non-married person to, to date others in, in some, in some sense. It's— you do because you're not married. That's my whole point here. But you are going to probably kill your relationship that you acknowledge is a good one. The, the fantasy that there's always somebody better out there is exceedingly stupid.

Oh, people think about it. They, they apply it to potential spouses. They think about it with jobs. They think about it with everything. Everything.

Just for the record, I think about it with regard to one thing. Oh, my audio equipment. There's always a better preamplifier out there. And by the way, it's interesting. That's a good example because in that sense I am driven a little crazy. It does, it does in fact compromise my ability to enjoy what I have.

You know, you're right about that. You are always getting new equipment, and I've, I've thought about that for you because you must be here just to hear new equipment. Did you go to Berlin?

Not this trip. This was in Munich. I've been to Berlin many times. I was at Checkpoint Charlie.

That's amazing.

It is. Well, I drove through it.

Oh my gosh. Well, so what was—

they put mirrors under my car to see if I was sneaking out an East German.

What was the difference like between West and East Berlin?

Are we moving on from sex? No, no, that's fine. I'm just curious.

We don't have to. We can, we can put a pin in it.

No, no, no.

The Berlin thing.

Were there any other Any other issues that I didn't address in this regard?

No, I don't think so. But again, I think this is great because this is very real. A lot of couples before marriage experience this, and it's good to—

yeah, but I, you know what, I really— I'm telling you, you gave me a subject. This just gave me a subject for, for the male-female hour, or Even the happiness hour, either one, it would work. The thought that there's always something better out there.

Yes, I'm going to write that down. It's hard, Dennis, because I believe that there are objective moral truths, that there are universal rules and standards that we ought to abide by, and finding exceptions is not a great way to live. But as has been the theme of the— this episode so far. There are exceptions. There are cases when not rules need to be broken, but—

well, you're talking about in marriage, or are you talking about, uh, premaritally?

Premaritally. Well, I, I feel a little bit like a hypocrite because on the one hand I say that, you know, you— if you're in a committed relationship, you ought to be in that relationship. You ought to follow certain rules. But then here we are saying, well, it's kind of fine if you are dating.

If you're in a committed relationship and want to maximize the chances of the fidelity of the person you're with, marry them. That's what I would say to you. I don't care what age you are. That's the way it works. You're more likely to cheat on a girlfriend than on a wife.

So what would you say to young people who feel like they're with the person that they're supposed to be with, but they may be afraid to get married? I know a lot. I know a lot of couples.

I would say what God says to human beings more than any other thing: do not fear. Okay. Fear is a way of leading one's life.

You curse so rarely. Let it rip. It's fine.

This one would have been worth it. It's a way to live a life.

I know a lot of couples, a lot of friends who are with great, great guys, and both of them want to wait several years until they're older, maybe 30 years old, until they have more stable jobs.

They don't have a single rational reason, in my opinion. I don't understand why you can't get stable jobs while you're, you're married. I don't understand. It's what all of humanity did. My parents married, they were 22 years of age. My father was making almost nothing.

I think they're afraid that they'll— and I can't speak for them, I'm just, I'm surmising— I think they're afraid that they're going to become different people and then they're going to be stuck in a marriage. Like, why?

Oh, then they're married at 23.

What if I evolve? What if I start liking someone else?

So, okay, that, that's, that's a valid reason. You really don't think you'll be the same person in 5 years? By the way, I think you should tell that to the person you're with. See if they stay with you. Isn't it assumed that even if you're not married, you will be this person 5 years from now? Why would I want it? Why would I want a boyfriend who's going to change in 5 years? I never in my life thought for 10 minutes I'm going to be a different person 5 years from now.

Well, that's because you have great values that anchor you.

So people need great anchors.

That's what it is. That's what I think it is.

Okay, fine.

Because I've thought about this.

Then the issue is weak values.

I've thought about this before. I was more afraid that I would change as a person when I was younger. Afraid is the wrong word, but I thought I would change a lot over the years. And by the way, I did. I mean, I'm, I'm not radically different, but I'm, I'm somewhat different from who I was a few years ago. But now that I'm here, I don't think I'm going to change.

But most people don't marry at 18. You changed from 18 to 20 to even to 21. Okay, big deal. That's not a— it's not a danger. But you don't think you're going to change now?

No, I really don't.

And I don't think you will either.

Some people say to me, they're like, you know, you're so public with your values and your conservatism. What if one day you wake up and you realize you're not conservative? And then the whole, you know, your whole career was saying this stuff publicly. And I said, I, I could sooner imagine myself transforming into a Martian, right, than changing my life.

And there's a reason, really, by the way, there is a reason which I'd like everybody to know. It was given to me by a guy I met at the Philadelphia airport. I don't know if you know this story because, you know, most of my stories—

Is that the cute guy?

Yeah.

This is what I remember about the story.

That's right. So if I think a guy is cute, I know. He was as tall as I am, much thinner. I would say 30, 35 max. Handsome. And he comes over to me and slight, slight accent tells me how much he enjoys my work. And I go, I think I detected an accent. Are you American? No, I'm Norwegian. I go, wow, Norwegian, a Norwegian conservative. And he said, oh, I don't know if I'm conservative. I just know what makes sense.

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For you to stop being conservative, you would have to stop.

Absolutely.

With common sense.

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

I am never, ever conservative and common sense are synonymous.

Yes. I am never going to wake up one day and all of a sudden think it's going to— it's actually a good idea to give 10-year-olds puberty blockers. That will never happen to me. Yeah, because it's exactly—

or you'll wake up and think, wow, it's true. Race determines how you think.

Yeah, that will never happen. I could imagine a lot more things happening to me before those thoughts. But, but, but I think I've hit on something here that a lot of a lot of people think that they're going to change and they actually may not be wrong.

That's right.

You know, I mean, it's actually, it's actually not a thought to, to, to insult.

Right.

But it's that, it's that they, they don't have good values or they don't have an anchor.

They not, not psychological, not emotional, not values.

And it's not that they're bad people.

Actually, a lot of the people I'm thinking of are good, really nice people. But they're sponges. They're wishy-washy.

They're jellyfish. Yes, they don't, they can't, they can't outline their principles definitively.

They were raised to be weak. The weak change.

Well, they were also raised to be morally relativist.

That's philosophically, but you're just, you're concentrating and rightly on values, but I'm not even talking values. If you are raised by helicopter parents, You were raised to be weak.

Another thing I did a timeless episode on was helicopter parenting and how in the 1980s, the majority of parents were helicopter as opposed to free range.

When I tell people, younger people, that my parents never came to any of my basketball games.

Oh my gosh.

They think I was basically abused.

Well, see, that I don't have an issue with, with parents showing up and supporting their children at games or concerts. That's not to me. That doesn't signify helicopter parenting to me. Yeah, helicopter parenting.

Wait, wait, forgive me. It may not be, but I'm giving you as radical an example as possible. They didn't even come to my games. But in my mind, this is— I'll tell you, in my mind, you finish your thought.

No, no, no. Go ahead.

Okay. I'll just say I remember vividly in high school thinking, I don't want my mother at my games.

Why?

Because I'm a man. Mm. Mommy, that's— don't go to man's games.

That's what I never have thought of. That, of course, because I'm a woman.

That's right. It was unmanly to me to have my parents cheering for me at a basketball game. Wow. That was the reason. That was the— that wasn't that I didn't want my parents. I didn't love my parents. I didn't want them there Because I'm my man. I'm not mommy's son.

I have witnessed— I mean, I could do an entire show on this. I have on Timeless. I have witnessed parents go absolutely insane at sports events.

Oh, they, they scream at the referee or the umpire.

They scream at their children. They scream at other people's children.

I mean, it's sick.

I was on teams. I was on a water polo team that was extremely competitive. And we traveled all around California and played games. And there were parents on my team.

Yeah, you know why?

Would, would verbally abuse me.

They're really—

oh my gosh, you have no idea. Hartman, what the— did you just do? You know, um, one of them turned to my mom and said, I'm gonna kill your daughter. And my mom was like, you are nuts. My parents were the tame parents. I actually started asking my parents not to come to my games for a few reasons. I got so self-conscious, I didn't want to make a mistake. In front of them. Not that they were the type of parents to berate me in the car, but I so badly wanted to make them proud, and I got really timid when they were there. And also, I did not want them to witness my coach and other parents screaming at me the way that they did, because my— I think my mom, my mom a few times let the parents have it. But it is— I could not— I really can't imagine being that type of parent that is so animalistic. I mean, the, the word is animalistic. These people are animals. Absolutely animals.

Okay, first, they're fools because they're setting a terrible example for their child. Secondly, they're crappy parents. They— I'll tell you why they're doing it. They— the most parents in America— I don't know if this is true in Europe, Most parents in America for the last 50 years, their primary aim was to be loved by their child.

How does that inculcate a sense of love in the relationship?

Look at how I protect you against a bad call by the umpire.

No, no, no. Parents will scream at their kids too. They will not just yell at the ref. They will yell at their children.

Really?

Yes. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Scream at their children.

Okay.

See, I have a different— no, I'll tell you what it is.

Yeah. What is it?

This is what I came to in my answer.

How they live through their child.

Yes. Starting in the '80s and '90s, there was this— I'm struggling to remember what it was in the United States that changed. I think we became pretty affluent as a society. There was this unprecedented high standard in living for even people who were in lower classes. And there started to be this kind of commodity culture, what car you drive, what neighborhood you live in, and people started to see their kids as another commodity. It used to be, and this is going back to the decline of religious values, it used to be that you raised your children to be good people and they were examples of your family. Now, now it's They're still examples of your family, but they're not examples of virtue. They're examples of achievement. That's this whole college craze, which God knows I know a lot about.

All right. Sean tells me we have a clip talking about marriage and all that. Jordan Peterson was on with Bill Maher. Bill Maher, uh, that's how I put it gently, has decided to remain in the single state his whole life. And apparently they had a discussion on this factor. I didn't see it yet, but we'll all be watching it for the first time.

So there's just not that dimension to it that is always hanging over the head like the Sword of Damocles over relationships. The clock's always ticking on them for when the passion runs out.

And that's the dilemma everybody finds themselves in.

Everybody finds themselves in it. It's just how people handle it. Some people cheat, some people leave, some people don't care, some people just suck it up.

You know, everybody has their way of dealing with it, but it's going to happen. No one— I mean, and no one who's in a long-term relationship is going to say, oh yeah, 20 years on and we still like attack each other when we walk in the door.

It's just—

come on.

That's true in my case.

You still attack each other?

Yeah.

Okay.

I know it's— it's another—

We just played Stump the Band. You got me.

Sorry, man.

You got me. Sorry. You win dinner at Pepe's.

Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Wow. That's very impressive. That's really— It's really—

Well, you know—

Better man than I.

Let me tell you the story. Because it— so both my wife and I were very sick for a couple years, right? And she just about died every day for about 8 months. It was really not good. And she handled it with amazing grace, by the way. And at the same time, I was very ill, and we were actually separated, like, for about 2 years because I was in hospitals here and there.

Sure.

And so I was there with her for the bulk of her illness, and then when she recovered very suddenly and somewhat miraculously, up on our 30th wedding anniversary day, by the way, which she told me she was going to do like 3 months previously, which was like— I have no idea what to make of any of that. I got very ill after that, and so we were apart more or less for about 2 years, and we grew apart quite a lot. And when we got back together, when I moved back into the house, it wasn't— we didn't really know what to do with each other because it had been so long, and she had kind of gone her way and I was still very ill, but we had made a habit of dating 2 or 3 times a week. Like, we really set aside time to do that.

Each other?

Yes, yes, each other. Yes, an important, an important point.

Children?

Yeah, yeah. And so, and so we had practiced that continually.

Wow.

And we really set aside time to do that. And so when we got back together and we didn't really know what to do, we thought, well, We, we had this dating routine, like maybe we could start that up again. And I tell you, man, that brought us back together right away. And it was better than it was before.

Hmm.

Yeah, that's— no, it's dramatic. So this is what I would say to most people. Bill Maher is wrong, in my opinion, about not getting married. If, if, and his reasoning is very interesting. I'm not going to be as sexually active if I get married and stay faithful as I would be as a single man, presumably having my choice of women anytime I want. And he's probably right, that is correct. Although generally speaking, married men have more sex than single men. But in the case of a, of a famous man who can attract a lot of women, it may not be the case that he may well have more. So a man, or I would say a woman too, but it's not a— it's not, it's not the question that a woman would ask, that she has a different question. So I would say to a man, okay, fine. So what is more important to you, to have a companion through life and hopefully children and hopefully grandchildren, or have more sexual excitement as a single guy? To me, it's, it's such as if the question is stupid. It's like, do you want this or this? And I'm into sexual excitement. I think it's awesome. But It's not as awesome as all the other things. There is a trade-off. See, his answer, we attack each other after 30 years, is atypical, okay? And, uh, that— so he's blessed and atypical. And I try to help the, the average guy, the average woman. The average, not meaning average incompetence or decency, right?

Average couple.

Yes. And so I say to people, there are many roads to an exciting, fulfilling life. Yes, sex is one of them, and it has its time and hopefully its place in marriage as long as it's possible. But it, it's not everything, and it's not comparable to the enduring benefits of a marriage and a family. It's not comparable. I mean, do you want to have on your tombstone, he had a lot of great sex, or he had a great relationship, great kids, and great grandkids? What would you rather be, be on your tombstone?

You just used two E words that are operative here. Excitement. And then you said enduring. We are taught to chase and value the former and not the latter, right? We view the latter as unexciting. Enduring is unexciting.

That's right.

And if you look at culture today, what are things that we're into? Drugs, alcohol, sex, video games, social media. What is that all? Instant, exciting, instant gratification. We don't, we are not taught to value the enduring. We don't even hear about it. How can we be taught to value it if we don't even have good examples of people talking about it? People think that they're consigning themselves to a dull life by doing the things that you just said.

That's right.

You ought to do. So it's actually not a stupid question because a lot of people don't understand the value.

Well, it is a stupid question, but it has to be asked. It's a stupid question. By that I mean, are you kidding? You really think that's a viable alternative?

There's— I mean, there are so many reasons, Dennis, why you are so valuable as a figure, but one of them is that you make marriage and commitment and having kids and having grandkids and having a religious life cool. Because women can talk about those things, but it's not going to register with men.

And men are overwhelmingly the ones that Well, women aren't talking about them today either, to be honest.

Oh, that's certainly true. But men are far more going to be influenced by a man like you talking about it.

Well, I remember, see, I was given a few gifts, and I say that not to brag. I say that because I'm not bragging. I admit they were gifts. I don't take credit for gifts. I was given a gift of the pursuit of wisdom at a very early age. And it, it has been a tremendous blessing in my life. So I'll give you an example. Looking back, I realized that— I didn't realize it at the time, it just seemed common sense to me, but I realized now I was thinking clearly. So I remember friends saying to me often in my 20s, they'd say, Dennis, sex with when you're high. And then they said this, they would name some drug, or even marijuana. It's the best. And I remember thinking, you got to be kidding me. Sex isn't a high in and of itself. You need a high on a high. They were jaded at 25. That's what they were. They were jaded. And I didn't get it.

Yes. And it goes back to what we were saying earlier. You think something is always better.

You know, I just take this drug, I just do this better, better, better, better, better, better.

Well, what would you say to someone who would go, well, what's the harm, Dennis? What's the harm in me?

You know, well, you don't— doing that high, you don't appreciate life for what it is. You don't. You can't get excited about life.

You need to always need to—

you need an artificial stimulant. Artificial sweetener.

It's like good in coffee, bad in life.

It's like adding saccharin to, uh, Coca-Cola.

Adding what?

Saccharin.

What is that?

Sucralose. Fake sugar.

I'm gonna smile and nod. Yes, I know Splenda.

Okay, Splenda is sucralose. Okay, right.

Thanks for telling me.

It's not an important thing to know, but you're welcome.

I think we've said a lot of important things in the episode today. To suffuse the unimportant with the important is sometimes good.

Totally agreed.

Today was very real. I mean, every— everything is real, but we went there.

Today was R-rated.

Was it? Oh gosh, parents don't watch.

Parents don't watch. You mean parents don't have your kids watch?

No, my parents.

Oh, your parents. Oh my God, you know, I wanted to give one reaction because you said this is worthy of its own episode, or at least one topic. So you said you were grateful that sex was not discussed in your home.

Yes.

So I had the opposite home of yours in that regard. Opposite. My father talked about sex regularly, not constantly, but regularly. And he made it possible for me to talk about sex to the world the way he did at the dinner table. He just believed it was, it was part of life. Not to talk about it is to, is to not address the elephant in the room.

You know, I'm really grateful because my parents didn't— and it's not off limits.

I'm not saying— no, I'm not saying your, your parents were—

no, I know that.

I'm saying Both are defensible.

Yes. My parents, it's not that it's off limits, but it's not addressed really or discussed. And I'm grateful because I have that. But then I can also go to the Shabbat dinner table and it is discussed. And I think it's healthy to, to have both. I think, I think people need a place in their life where it is discussed healthily with good values directing the conversation. But I, now that I've grown up without them talking about it, I feel like it would be so weird if they did start talking about it.

So no, obviously, of course.

And I like, I really, especially today when there seems to be no boundaries anymore, I like that my parents have created that boundary. There are just some things that they, they don't discuss money with me. They don't discuss sex with me. And they just keep something separate. And I like that because, I mean, nowadays I was just reading about how most kids in American public schools call teachers by their first names instead of Mr. or Mrs. XYZ.

Oh, that's obviously a long time ago.

I know. Well, I thought it was just the case in LA.

Terrible. But it's all over.

And God knows 4-year-olds like in LA, you guys see—

because the teachers don't want to be regarded as in any way a hierarchy. There is— hierarchy has been destroyed. The parent is not above the child. God is not above the parent. The teacher is not above the student. The policeman is not above the civilian. There's— it's all French Revolution égalité.

True in some ways, but in other— the hierarchy, I think, has been shifted into a place where I'm going to teach your kid about sex whether you want your kid to learn about it or not, because I know better.

That's right. So it's like the expert has supplanted the parent.

Yes.

And the, the policeman and the teacher and God.

You know, it's, it's an interesting thing. Like, a virtue doesn't go away, it becomes twisted and put in a place where it doesn't belong.

That's right. That's right.

That's what we're seeing.

There are no atheists, it just depends what God you believe in.

Yes. So Dennis Prager, yes. How do they reach us? Through me.

But that is correct.

Through us.

Send a self-addressed stamped envelope to Julie Hartman.

I don't want a stalker to America. Julie Hartman. You know what? Someone wrote me a letter, a handwritten letter, and they, they put in the mailing address, Julie Hartman, comma, Hero. I thought that was so nice.

There are a lot of fun things in being a public figure.

Well, I don't know if I'm a public figure, but a budding public figure.

Yeah. No, no, you're a public figure. I, and whatever the degree, by, by just being, you're, look, you're in public. It's a fact. You're not, you're not Bill Maher. I mean, I'm, but that, that's, I'm not. You're not as well known as Bill Maher.

Gosh.

Well known is not, however, the key.

No. And this is a whole other episode. That's right.

It is another episode.

I don't, I really don't care about that.

Yeah, I know you don't.

I don't.

I, I have so many thoughts, thoughts on fame.

And you know the best thing about being in our position that is in public, you very quickly learn not to give a bleep what other people think.

Or you go into a madhouse.

Yes, I'm sure there are public figures who really do. I mean, they go into madhouses. You would doing this where we talk. I mean, look what we talked about today. Sex, masturbation, dating, marriage. I mean, we talked helicopter parenting. I mean, that's— but, you know, we talk about pretty, pretty intense things. And I am sure there are people who I went to high school with who watch me. I'm sure my old teachers watch me. I'm sure there are people who are like, what the heck is she doing? And you know what, I literally, in order to survive and sleep at night, you just have to learn to not care. And I really don't. And that is the greatest gift of all, to learn at 23 years old not to give a bleep what other people think.

So I'll leave everybody with one of my greatest lines, if I may say it about my own lines. If you let the compliments go to your head, you will let the insults go to your heart. You never heard me say that?

I have.

It's a good one.

Yes. So how do they reach me?

Julie.

We got off.

We got off on a Julie at julie-hartman.com.

I'm really proud. Of course. And Dennis, can you tell us what social media you have? You just got a new form of social media.

And we've talked about this. I can tell them what my preamplifier is.

Okay. But you, You want people to follow you.

I certainly do.

So what you should— it starts with an I. You have an Instagram.

Yeah, I do. I do.

Yeah. Every week. Every week.

Yeah, she's right.

Every week.

It is true.

@TheDennisPrager.

Yes.

Okay. I think this is time number 4. Time number 5, he's going to get it.

The Dennis Prager.

The Dennis Prager. You're the Dennis Prager. And I'm @JulieRHarman.

Why isn't it @theJulieHarman?

Because I'm not pretentious like you.

Oh, I guess so.

No, you're— you— Dennis Prager was taken, so they needed to add the— yeah, I'm sure by a meme account that makes fun of you.

Probably. Yep.

This was a joy, everyone.

It was. See you next week.

Shalom.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure.

Why?

Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.