Dennis & Julie: For Goodness Sake

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hey everybody, Dennis and Julie, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. I hope you enjoy this as much as we do, and that's something we do. What number is this, like 80-something?

80-something, yeah. 82.

Yep.

Holy moly.

The first one, Julie was in 8th grade when we began.

Julie was a senior in college. I think it was March of my senior year.

Now here is my prediction. I remember making it to you was how rapidly college will seem far distant. Was I right?

Yes.

Don't tell me to make me feel good.

It actually scares me a little bit. Because I'm 23 years old. I feel old, but I know intellectually I'm not old yet. But I feel like college is so in the rearview mirror. You know, the other day I was actually quizzing myself where certain buildings are that I used to go to in college, or names of the buildings and names of professors. And it's amazing how quickly you forget.

Well, without dwelling much on it, it's not only true about college. When something ends, any period of life— I mean, when I got divorced, that marriage seemed like it was so long before. When you make— it's a radical change to leave college, right? That it's a cocoon, it's its own world. Now it's gone, completely gone. And so that's, that's the way life works. Once it's— if something's over, I wonder if that happens with regard to loved ones. I don't— that I, I can't answer that because I haven't lost— you know, I've obviously lost my parents, but that's part, part of life in a normal scheme of things, things. But I, I wonder, you know, let's say there's so many widows and widowers out there. Does their married life with them seem like the far distant past within a few months? I don't know the answer.

I don't either. Question for you. I talk about this a lot with some of my former classmates. I have many friends from college. I feel very blessed. And I have many friends from high school who went to different colleges, and we discussed this really kind of ending the college years and being catapulted into quote-unquote real life is a, is a daunting and at times difficult experience. I mean, that's not exactly new. People talk about that. But I'm wondering, do you remember that transition? Because one of the things that we discuss, especially for, for people who I went to high school and college with, because we all kind of had similar upbringings where we worked super hard in high school, did sports, you know, we're, we're getting straight A's to get into a good college. And we were in college, we were also trying to get really good grades, trying to do all these activities. You know, I, I am a very, ambitious, motivated person, and a lot of my friends are, are similar in that we're very hard workers. But now that we're in real life, we talk about how it's much harder to define success and define happiness because for the pre— for the past 10 to 15 years, the path was prescribed for you. You knew that you had to get good grades, you had to have good activities, you had to get into a good college. Of course, that's the milieu that I was in. That's not the case for everyone. I'm just talking about my cohort, to use your favorite word, which, by the way, Dennis and Julie listeners, thank you. They always take my side on that one, the cohort issue. Just saying, just saying. But, you know, it was, it was very prescribed in college. It was very prescribed. And now it's like you can move to Montana and become a ski instructor if you want to, or you can go work, you know, You can never get married. You can get married. There's, in other words, there's, there's no longer the prescribed path. And I think for, for, for me and some of my peers being just thrown out like that without your next accomplishment ahead of you is difficult. Cuz you have to figure out who you are, what you want. Did you have that?

Well, I, you could now go to the ladies' room and come back and I'll still be talking because I have so much to say about that. First of all, you asked me, did I have this realization of the transition from college to real life? So I, I don't know if I laughed on camera or not, but I—

You did. Well, I saw you.

Yeah. Well, so I'll tell you why I laughed. I had the opposite of college experience. My college was real life. There was no different, almost virtually no difference between my college life and real life. I didn't, I missed most classes. I did very well, but I, they didn't care about attendance. I did my papers and I did my exams. The third year I was in England. There was during that time I was sent to the Soviet Union by the Israeli government.

Yes.

It's not like I had not been in real life during college. And, you know, I've told you the very, very funny Prager family story. One day, I was on my first years, 'cause it was Brooklyn College. My parents lived in Brooklyn. I lived at my parents' home. I wasn't dorming at school. There was no dorm at Brooklyn College. It was all commuter. So I said to my mother one day, I love, I truly love this story 'cause it's so, describes me and my iconoclastic personality. I said to her, Mom, I'm off this week. And totally seriously, she looked at me and said, oh, I thought you were off last week.

Yes.

She didn't even know when I had school because I missed so many classes and because I would spend so much time in Manhattan going to cultural things and bookstores and concerts and so on. So there was very little difference between real life, quote unquote, and college life. The next arena that you raised was what again? Because I really did want to comment on that too.

That you define your own happiness.

Oh, that's right. Okay, this is critical. This is really critical. So I am about as much my own person as— you know me. I am my own man. I march to my own drummer, etc. But I want to tell you something. I did have a prescribed life, and thank God I did. I knew I would get married and have children like you know that you will get up tomorrow. It was, it was not in the realm of, gee, I wonder if I'll get married. I wonder if I'll have kids. I mean, obviously, if I couldn't have kids, I couldn't have— by the way, indeed it did happen, right? That my wife couldn't conceive at the time, and I did adopt the child. So I knew I would have a kid. I don't care, adopted, blood, that, as you know, my—

Blood schmud, as you say.

Blood schmud, that's exactly right. So that was a huge help in my inner stability. When you have to even decide, gee, I don't know, will I get married? Gee, I don't know, will I have children? Well, what the hell do you know? And then the other thing you said, which is really a very common phrase, and I'm not a fan of it, well, you know, I want to find out who I am. I never, I don't know if I spent 10 minutes in my life trying to find Dennis. I was trying to find who Dennis should be. This is a great subject. Not necessarily for us now, but for everyone's life. Looking for you is a waste of time. Looking for whom you should be, that's, that's key.

I agree with you. However, the reason I said that is because, again, I— and I'm speaking about a particular cohort now. I'm just saying it to tick you off. I'm just going to keep Throwing it in there.

It is a little obnoxious.

I really don't get your opposition to it. Anyway, we could fight about that all day, but I'm speaking about a particular cohort where a lot of the people who I went to high school and college with, we were so on the overachieving track, which by the way, for many of us was kind of handed down by our parents. I would say about—

Of course.

80 to 90% of people at Harvard are the products of helicopter parents, right? And so I think that a lot of people graduate and they, they just follow, you know, I'm gonna go to business school, I'm gonna go to this firm, I'm gonna go to law school, I'm gonna do this. And I don't think that they know who they are. I mean, I hear you when you say who you should be.

Okay, no, that's very fair.

But in high school, you know, you talk about, I knew, I knew who I was. I knew that I liked conducting symphonies, I wanted to learn Russian, I liked, you know, going to whatever the heck you did instead of going to high school. And I don't think a lot of my peers— and I'm not wagging the finger, I kind of went through this in high school, like, I need to figure out who Julie is and not what Julie thinks Julie should be— but I'm not so convinced that many people in my cohort, haha, know what their interests are.

And I hate this word passion because I just think I like the word passion.

Really? I don't like it. I think passion is for like the heat of the intimate sexual moment. That's when I hear the word passion.

Well, your mind is so often on sex.

Yes, so often.

I'm telling you, there are other subjects.

Oh, right. Hilarious that Dennis Prager is saying this to me.

Total joke. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, no, no, passions are a big— that's a very, very valid point. And I don't know, I don't know the, the perfect answer. So let me modify what I said. You can spend your life, as I put it, in a dismissive way, which is wrong, but the way I put it, contemplating your navel, which is a dismissive way, I fully acknowledge. So there's got to be, there are really two things. Who am I, or what is my nature? What is, I don't know who am I, fully means, but what am I composed of? What, what do I really care about? What, what, what makes me tick? What are my habits? What am I good at? What am I not good at? These are very important things to know. But at, at least as important is what do I want to be? I don't mean by profession.

Yes.

What person do I want to be? I knew very early on I want to be a good man. That, that's a very big deal. How many young people would say that?

Very few, because many young people and many people in general, not just young people, don't view your character as your accomplishment. They view your, your job, your salary, what car you drive, what jewelry you have or your wife has, you know, material items. That's how they define their success. I know you, and you really believe— screw that. I mean, I know that you're, you're proud of yourself and your work, and as you should be, but I know that, that for you, your greatest accomplishment in your life is the man that you have made yourself into. Not the radio host, not the famous conservative commentator, not the head of or the founder of PragerU, this extraordinary organization. It's you. But a lot of people don't view it that way. They view that as maybe a nice accompaniment to the on-paper accomplishments, but they don't view your character as an accomplishment. You know, when I, if you don't mind, I know, do you want to go before I continue?

No, no, no, please.

So I know I talked about this on Timeless. I don't know if I said it on Dennis and Julie, but I was— I had a moment recently where I really realized that your character is your greatest accomplishment in life. I've always believed that. I've known that. But there was something that really drove it home to me. I was in London about 2 months ago during that London-Berlin trip. And I love whenever I'm in London to go— I love going to Westminster Abbey. Have you been to Westminster Abbey? Oh my gosh. It is not one of my favorite places on earth. It is my It is the favorite place on Earth for me. It's extraordinary. And so even though I'm lucky to have been several times, whenever I go, I block off like 5 hours just to go and be in there. Kings and queens are buried there. Darwin, Newton. I mean, it just— the artwork, the architecture, it's extraordinary. So when I was there 2 months ago, I decided that I would try to go into parts of the Abbey that I hadn't spent much time. When you put on the earphones and do the guided tour, they take you to like where Queen Victoria's buried. I decided to go off into like a little corridor where everyday people were buried. Because 3 centuries ago, you could pay a sum of money to have your wife, your deceased wife, your deceased daughter, son buried in the abbey. I went over, Dennis, I was reading these people's gravestones. These are just everyday people. And I was moved to tears by the inscriptions of them. I was expecting it to be like, Lord Duke Grantham VIII from, you know, this place was buried here, et cetera. It wasn't. It was a soliloquy about the person's character. And specifically, every single inscription had to do with the way that those individuals dealt with hardship. There was one that said that there was a 20-year-old girl who died of typhus, and there was this beautiful inscription like, she faced her illness with the stoicism of a true Christian. I mean, it was just— they talked about what kind of wives and mothers and friends these people were. And I was reading it, and I know it sounds so corny, but I was crying. And I felt the strangest emotion that you can feel in front of a gravestone. Envy. I wish I had known these people because they seem to be so wonderful. And that's when I realized who, you know, because many of these people did come from the lord, duke, whatever backgrounds. It didn't matter. It didn't matter that they were in Parliament. It didn't matter that they were the, you know, number one advisor to the king. The inscriptions about who they were and how they made other people feel, that's what mattered.

There's a great video up on the internet. Anyone could watch it called For Goodness' Sake.

Oh yes.

It's the video I made 30 years ago with Alan Estrin. I'm the quote unquote star of it. And there are a lot of famous at the time Hollywood stars in it. It's funny, but it's all my views on goodness and ethics. So there's a great scene there of a scenario. You know, I make up scenarios a lot. And the scenario is a pastor eulogizing a guy who has just died. And what does he talk about? Of course, the guy's moral achievements. And then I said, but in an— and then I gave an alternate speech, which is hilarious, about what a great car collection the guy had. You know, who cares?

Right.

It's sad. The point that I was making in those scenes is that it almost takes death for us to understand what really matters.

Oh yeah, it does take death.

Yeah, nobody says, unless there's nothing else to say, nobody says, well, you know, he was such a terrific lawyer. Who gives a damn? But was he a good father? Was he a good friend? Was he a good husband? Was he honorable? Did people admire him and like him? That's, that's what matters. So, and that's how I raised my kids. I, as you know, I didn't care if they went to college, and I don't care if they went to college, what college they went to. It was all character. I never asked them their grades. I didn't give a damn about their grades.

You know, you read what you just said about that scene in For Goodness' Sake, which by the way I think is an incredible film. It's a really, really good one. It's funny and there's a great moral message. So shout out to that. But it got me thinking, a lot of modern-day obituaries are kind of resumes. Have you noticed that? If you go to the New York Times, you know, obituary section, a lot of it—

Well, obituary, they're not going to comment on your character. That's true. I mean, you can't.

Why not?

Because they don't know it.

Okay, I see that. That's fair. But Well, I think the family members write the obituary and submit it.

Really? No.

Or even— okay, all right, maybe for the New York Times it's different, but if you read a local newspaper—

oh, I see.

You know, in the, in the family— I remember when my grandpa died, my uncle wrote it and put it in the Massachusetts—

all right, and that was about character?

I don't honestly— I can't remember, it was so long ago. I'd have to reread it. But I, I, I noticed because I like reading obituaries. Maybe it's weird, I don't know, but It kind of fascinates me. How did the person die? What did they— but it's a resume. I would rather read about the character of a stranger in the New York Times than what they did for a living. So if you could make— I mean, your whole career has been making the case for this, but if you could make like a 3 to 5 sentence case for why one's character is their greatest accomplishment, to— what would you say to someone who's graduating from college? This whole, you know, going back to—

I have the answer in my film, For Goodness' Sake. By the way, people should watch it. As I said, it's free. It's on the internet. Just put in For Goodness' Sake, Dennis Prager, and it'll— it should come up. But I give the answer there. I was always going to say, if nothing else, it'd be interesting for people to see me 30 years ago.

People get that with your huge glasses.

Yeah, with my huge glasses.

And your hair too is different.

So I give the answer there, and that is what, what do we want most from everyone else on Earth? There is an answer from everyone on who we will ever come into contact with. What we want is that they be good.

People so don't think in those terms. You're absolutely right.

Absolutely right. That's the thing we most want from others, is that they be good. It's the— but it's not the thing we most want from ourselves.

Mm-hmm. So we want everyone else to be good so we can get away with whatever we can get away with, or concentrate on something else, making money. Okay, indulge me for a minute. I just want to read one or two of these inscriptions. I think it will be very touching to you. I'm literally standing there crying. These people I didn't know. I think everyone in the abbey is looking at me like, cuckoo. Okay, ready? Uh, piety to God and benevolence to man were the principles which occupied his thoughts and directed his life. Actuated by a lively sense of religion, he enjoyed that serenity of mind and cheerfulness of temper by which Christianity is so peculiarly distinguished. His extensive bounties were dispensed with liberal but secret magnificence, seldom disclosing even to whom the— even to those whom they received the source whence they flowed. Public institutions, distressed individuals, private friends experienced the benefit of his well-regulated economy. I mean, just stuff like that. I mean, you read that and you go, don't you wish you knew that person?

Well, it says more than anything what they valued.

Yes.

I mean, they didn't talk about his outer accomplishments.

No. This is the typhus 20-year-old. Her form, the most elegant and lovely, was adorned by the native purity and simplicity of her mind. Um, which was improved by every accomplishment education could bestow. It pleased the Almighty to visit her in the bloom of her life with a lingering and painful disease, which she endured with fortitude and Christian resignation. Mike Lindell has a passion to help you get the best sleep of your life. He didn't stop at the pillow. Mike also created the Giza Dream bedsheets, which I use. They look and feel great, which means an even better night's sleep, which is crucial for our overall health. Mike found the world's its best cotton called Giza. It's ultra soft and breathable but extremely durable. Mike's latest deal is the sale of the year. For a limited time, you'll get 50% off of the Giza Dream Sheets, marking prices down as low as $29.98 depending on the size. Go to mypillow.com and click on the radio podcast square and use the promo code Hartman. There you'll find not only this great offer but also deep discounts on all MyPillow products, including the MyPillow 2.0 mattress topper, MyPillow kitchen towel sets, and so much more. Call 1-800-566-6745 or go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Hartmann. It's about— it's all of that is about how you helped other people, how you reacted in the face of hardship. It was, it was Just amazing. Okay, I want to find one more. I'm sorry.

Religion doesn't matter.

Really? Yeah, exactly. Religion is antiquated. Who cares about religion? Okay, another one. He had unblemished conduct in every relation of life, of manners gentle and prepossessing, combining with great legal knowledge extraordinary powers of persuasive eloquence. He attained with the esteem, admiration, and goodwill of all who witnessed his brilliant character.

How old was he?

Uh, let's see, 63. No, no, much younger. Looks like he was about 40 when he died.

That was the average age, I suspect.

Yes, he died in 1846.

Oh really? Oh, that late?

You should go. You would, you would love it. Everyone go to the parts of Westminster Abbey that are not frequently visited. This is a big problem though. This is, I mean, to, to state the obvious, that people really don't think your character matters. There, I, I did a show on—

Oh, they think everybody else's character.

Well, exactly. I did a show on Timeless about this growing, uh, worldview, especially among people my age, that life is a game. I heard someone in college say this.

Really? What does that mean?

Well, there was this, there was this guy in college who was a total blankety blank, one of the worst people I've ever met in my life. And he would brag about how he cheated on exams. And I said to him once, we were in a common room, and I said to him once, why are you— why do you do that? And why do you brag about it? And he looked at me and he said, life is a game. There are winners and there are losers. And if you play the game well, you win. And if you don't play the game well, you lose. I'm playing the game well because everyone else is playing the game. So I've got to beat them at the game that we're all in.

You know what I wonder? I wonder if he's happy.

I truly hope he's not because he's such an awful person.

No, no, I agree with you.

I don't think he is. That's the thing. The one source of comfort in addition to the belief that you say is the— is that gives you sanity, that God will punish.

There's an afterlife, right?

Yes. But the one thing that I think is a form of cosmic justice on Earth is that I think it is impossible for someone like that guy to truly be happy, to your point. Because if you're seeing everything from what angle you can go at it from, how to manipulate the situation, how to use this person, this class, this professor, this test to advance yourself, you're not going to attract genuine good people and relationships into your life. And I think too, and maybe this is just again what I tell myself to comfort myself, I think he knows he's a fraud. I don't think he ever feels the sense of pride and accomplishments that you feel when you know that you've done something the right way and really earned something based on your own merit. He doesn't have that.

He bragged about cheating on tests?

Yes. And by the way, this was one person. I don't want people to think this was like everyone. You know, who I went to college with. I went to college with many great people. But yes, there's this one guy, of course, he was like an 8th generation, you know, legacy, filthy rich, so entitled. And yet he would literally go around and brag about all of— like, it was a badge of honor the way that he manipulated this situation, how he got an A on his economics exam without even studying because he you know, he paid some kid to sit next to him and cheated off his exam. It was this weird, like, I can manipulate, I am so smart and cunning that I can manipulate this situation and do no work but get the outcome that all these fools who did do work get.

I have a distant relative who married into the family. That's all I'll say. He'd be unidentifiable even by people who are in my family. And he passed away years ago. He was my age. He passed away at a young age, relatively speaking. Anyway, I remember visiting him and his wife who was originally in my family. He married in, as I said, and I'll never forget on two occasions he told me how he figured out ways of sneaking things in to the country and not paying customs. Today they've pretty much abolished it. You could bring in anything basically. But then you had to fill out a form if you brought in more than $100 worth and they would pay some duty on what you brought in. So a lot of people lied, you know, or they just, they're bringing in $80 worth when they're bringing in $800 worth and they get through and it's fine. I'm not even judging that because people pay so many taxes anyway in America that I'm not judging people who did that. I am judging him though on this. This is really important to me. He told me the ways he, with great, a great sense of pride, he told me how he cheated the government. When he came into the country. He would actually give other passengers some of the things he had bought so that they would be taking it in because they went under the limit, right? And he would have much less to report. Or suitcases with hidden compartments. And all I thought was, listen, if you don't pay your fair share of duty when you come into the country, I'm not here to judge you on that one. But don't brag about it like this is a great achievement on your part. That, that's— that was to me worse. Does that make sense to you?

Of course. Yes, yes, it is. Because you're—

because at least there's some shame if you keep it to yourself.

Yes.

You're not proud.

That's what it is, being achieved. That's exactly what it is. A lot of people, when they choose to behave well— and, and I, and I relate to this to, to an extent I think a lot of people do it because they feel better behaving ethically than behaving unethically. And I've always wondered, I want to ask you, is that, is that not a great thing if one of the primary reasons that you are behaving well is because of the good feeling that you get? In other words, shouldn't you just—

This is okay.

This is classic Christian question.

That's right.

I knew you were going to say that.

Yes. And by the way, I'm thrilled that you knew I was going to say that. Because it means that what I have been saying has been clear to you. It doesn't matter. And this is worthy of—

It might matter a little bit.

No, it doesn't matter at all. Okay. This is my old— this is my old— one of my oldest themes in speaking in speeches. If a guy gives a lot of money to a hospital, For— whoops, my, my, uh, can I just pause for a minute?

You know that always happens to you on your radio show.

I know, and on this show it's terrible.

Can I ask you a non-judgmental—

yes, why don't I set it? Yes, it's a total—

not learn to turn it off?

No, I do not. That is exactly correct, I do not. Okay, so this has been an ongoing, uh, example that I have given in lectures as far back as I remember. A guy gives a certain amount of money to build an oncology wing at a hospital.

Oh yes, I know.

And the reason he did it was because he wants his name on the wing. Okay. The Fred Cohen Oncology Wing. And do— and the only reason that we know of, at any rate, or even he admits to, the only reason I did it is I want my name in perpetuity on this oncology wing. At XYZ Hospital. Your mother gets treated effectively for cancer thanks to this guy's oncology wing. How do you feel towards this guy? 100% grateful.

Yes.

Let us say the guy did it solely because he wants to help people with cancer. Will you feel better toward that guy? I doubt it. You know, it's very interesting how this has become such a big subject publicly. Dennis Prager and his arguments that thoughts don't matter nearly as much as actions. Actions, like, have it 10 times more important, 50, 100 times more important than thoughts. I'm passionate on this issue.

I agree with you on that.

So therefore it— and by the way, there's another reason it doesn't matter. You said, well, doesn't it matter a little that— or Dennis, does it matter at all the reason that the guy wanted it because he wants his name on the building or the whatever it is? And how the hell do we know why we did that in any event? We do not know all our motives. None of us. The most self-aware human being does not know all of his or her motives. It is not knowable to the human being, let alone the next guy's motives. That is why I judge me and I judge others by their behavior. The number of people— I get so passionate on this issue, it's amazing.

I love it.

Okay, well, thank you. I, I, I, I, sometimes I'm afraid I get too passionate. The number of people with good intentions who do crap, who do evil, who do horrible things to human beings is in the tens of millions. Every piece of crap human who supported communism meant well.

I hear you. Well said. Agreed.

So then let's get this out of our minds. It doesn't matter what you think. I think it matters how you act, and how you act shapes how you think. Do good, do good, do good, do good, then you'll think good. Think good, think good, think good, think good, you won't do good.

Harrumph.

Okay, I got it out.

No, but you're right. You're right. The reason why I said I think it matters a little is because let me give you another example. You talked about the guy.

Hold on, I got to put my phone.

You know what? We should just pick up whoever's calling and be like, you're live on D&J.

Hold on.

It's so funny. I hear you. I hear you on your radio show.

No, no, it's depressing. It is depressing. Okay, go ahead.

Okay. You gave the example about the guy donating, and it's a great example. It is. I, in high school, I actually, I need to write an article about this, this, this trend. Then again, I went to private school. I think this is a lot more common among people who go to private school than public school. But in high school, a lot of my peers would start charities. To get into college, to put on their college application, okay? And it was like a phenomenon and it was absurd. You have all these privileged people who were like, and you know what the charity was? You go on a damn website and you click donate and they have a link for you to donate to whatever. I mean, it was obscene. It was totally obscene. And so there's an argument, oh, well, if it means that, you know, $500 more was donated to whatever, then more people were benefited as a result of that. But there was something to me that was so hollow and frankly, I think immoral to, in the name of helping people, use that for conveniently only like 9th through 12th grade. The second these people got into college, poof, the charities disappeared. How shocking. You think the charities quote-unquote charities continued into college. No, all of their concern and their volunteer work and all that stuff evaporated the second they got that acceptance letter. And I just, I don't know, I think people like that deserve to be called out. And so I get your argument that maybe it did do some good, but I don't think those people are going to go on for the rest of their lives and be charitable. I think what the lesson that they learned from that was I can use charity when it helps me with something that I want, and then I can throw out charity once I've gotten it. So I think these people deserve to be called out. Okay, maybe, and exposed for their true motives because they stopped when they graduated.

I, I understand that your ability to judge them is exists. You don't really give a damn. You just want to get into a good college by showing you the charitable work. So I have the following responses. First of all, obviously charitable work only matters if it really helps people, right? If it's just a resume filler, then you didn't do charitable work, right? You did pseudo-charitable work, or the act of charitable work. You, you acted. That doesn't count. But if, let us say, to use my example, somebody got chemotherapy thanks to that charitable work, do you— so what would you say to the recipient of the chemotherapy? There's no reason for you to thank this kid. They only did it to get into a good college.

No, no, I hear your point.

Okay, not that.

Yes, but this is— but what we're arguing about isn't an all or nothing situation. What I'm saying is I think this matters a bit.

All right.

And I think people do deserve to be called out.

So I would say this. If we have built a society where you impress people by your charitable work, that's a good society. There are a lot of societies where that would not go over that well.

Yes, I agree. But we live in a society where people are impressed by pseudo charitable work.

How about this? What? So wait. You don't have a problem with a person getting into a good college because they were a very good bowler or tennis player. Okay, maybe bowling teams don't exist now. A tennis player or a rower. I got into Harvard not just because of my grades, but because I was on the so-and-so champion high school rowing team. So that's okay. I rowed to get into college, but I gave charity to get into college. That's suspect. I don't share that view.

No, Dennis, it's not that if someone really did and went out.

No, no. Even though, even if they did it just to get into college, let's say, listen, you swam largely to get into a good college, right?

Yes.

I don't hold it against you.

No, no, no. Listen, what I'm saying is this. If you go down to the LA homeless shelter or you go to the chemotherapy ward at UCLA Hospital and you give your hours to get into college and you're helping people, I agree with you. That's like rowing or swimming or whatever to get into college. What I am saying is that these people were, were creating these websites. Really? They weren't actually doing it.

All right. Well, that was my first question. How much good does that charity really do? Well, you're arguing that it was a pseudo charity. Pseudo charities don't count.

I'm arguing that it was a pseudo charity.

However, maybe, you know, what if it was a real charity and it was just done to get into college?

I just said I agree with you. I think—

oh, so where do we differ?

I'm telling you, we differ because the pseudo-charities in some ways helped people. For instance, I told you it's very common to have these websites with these links, donate to XYZ. And so maybe as a result of that pseudo-charity, maybe 10 or 100 people went and gave some money. And you know what? I can say that that's a good thing because maybe, you know, $1,000 or $2,000 was raised to help people who wouldn't have otherwise gotten that money. However, I do think it is worth at least calling out that those people didn't get their butt up and go and volunteer. They just created some dumb website and to take credit for this charity. And I don't think that we should be celebrating people who do that. And I don't think that colleges should be rewarding people who do that, cuz it's fake and it's using—

it's only fake if it did minimal good.

It's using people who are, who are suffering to get into college.

All right. All right.

And not actually really helping them.

Okay, then we don't differ.

We don't—

I, I don't think it doesn't really help anybody. Of course it's phony, and this— the college shouldn't be seduced by it. Yeah, but if they did an actual charity just to get into college, I agree, good was achieved.

I, I agree with you.

And it is also possible— it may not be likely, but it is possible— that when you get into the habit of giving charity or forming charities, it may stay with you.

Fair enough.

Even when you're not trying to get into college, just like you continued swimming.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Oi, oi, swimming was so awful.

I'm telling you, it is.

I also want to pause. Just— I didn't get recruited to play or to swim in college.

I know that.

So I don't want people to think I swam, got recruited, and then stopped. I didn't get recruited.

But there's no doubt that your swimming ability was a big help because so many people have great grades.

Well, also I demonstrated that I worked at night.

And you played oboe while swimming.

Oh yeah.

Which, that was remarkable to be able to do that underwater.

But on this subject of these, and again, We agree if someone's going and doing the work, even if it's to get into college, I appreciate that they're doing it. But these pseudo-charities with the websites, they drive me crazy.

Gotcha.

I— what do you think? Do you think that person deserves to be kind of— you know, when I say a person—

all I care about, all I care about is did the charity do good? The motives for making it But he— that, you know, the motives for making it are, are only important to people who are determining whether to incorporate this person into their personal life. In other words, let's say it was a guy and you were set up on a date with him, okay? And you were told, you know, I just want you to know this guy set up a charity to get into Harvard. Or to get into wherever, some prestigious— another prestigious college. You, in deciding, do I want— do I want to take this man seriously as a potential mate in life? I really want to know what makes him tick. That's very fair. For the rest of us, I— the only question of interest to me, since I'm not going to marry him or try to make him my best friend, is did his charitable work do good?

Yes.

Doing good is my bottom line. Yes, it is not the only bottom line if you want to marry the person or be a friend of the person, but for the rest of humanity, the other 7 billion people, that's the bottom line. Did it do good?

The problem I have with these websites, even if, you know, they, they give some money to people who otherwise wouldn't have had it, is because then I think it perpetuates this pseudo-charity cycle where people are going, oh, that's what you need to do to get in. And I just think it fosters a disingenuous—

Well, all right, so how about this? Let's say everybody who tried to get into a prestigious university started a charity, then they would compete on effectiveness.

True.

And that would increase good on Earth.

See, well, actually, the evidence, at least that I saw, doesn't bear that out because Because none of them do any good. Well, because so many people had these websites.

Right.

So they weren't competing for being better.

Okay, then the colleges won't be seduced.

They are seduced.

Well, if everybody has it, I mean, if vast numbers of kids— why is it seductive?

Well, they continue to accept students.

Colleges are that stupid that they think that this thing is important when it's not doing really any good work? All right, anyway, I can't address that. I just wanna go to my bottom, bottom line that—

Oh, sorry.

Can I say one thing? We overrate thoughts and underrate actions.

Can I say one thing that's really, really, really important? The thing also that bothered me about these pseudo charity websites is there are people in our own community that need help. You know, like for instance, there was this person who started this charity about like immigration and there were people who worked at our school who were probably immigrants. They were immigrants, you know, and or they lived in immigrant community. And it's like, help the people in your own community, you know, don't go so global. Put your name on a website. You're the CEO of the immigrant charity.

This is another great scene in For Goodness Sake, by the way. And you will be very happy to know that the Talmudic principle There is a principle in the Jewish religion. I'll say it in Hebrew to give it credibility: Ani Eir Chakodmim. The poor of your city come first.

Gold dealers are a dime a dozen. They're everywhere. What sets these companies apart, and who can you really trust? This is Julie Hartman for AmFed Coin and Bullion, Dennis Prager's choice for buying precious metals. When you buy precious metals, it's imperative that you buy from a trustworthy and transparent dealer that protects your best interests. So many companies use gimmicks to take advantage of inexperienced gold and silver buyers. Be cautious of brokers offering free gold and silver, or brokers that want to sell you overpriced collectible coins claiming that they appreciate more than gold and silver. What about hidden commissions and huge markups? Nick Grovich and his team at AMFED have always had Dennis Prager's back. Nick's been in the industry for over 42 years, and he's established a reputation built on trust, transparency, and fair pricing. If you're interested in buying or selling, call Nick and his team at AmFed Coin and Bullion, 1-800-221-7694, americanfederal.com, americanfederal.com. Yes, that's what it was. Help the people in your own community. You know, the global, like, USA Against Homeless. There are people on Skid Row 2 miles from our school who you should be going out and handing out baguettes and water to. Let's, you know, let's start in our own community instead of putting your face on some WordPress thing and saying you're a CEO.

So it just comes down to the bottom line: was it effective? If it's, if it's a sham charity, it's not impressive. If it did good for the, for the sole reason of getting into Harvard, I don't care. We can't rate people on their motives. And that's, you know, one of my lectures on Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, the High Holy Days that I led, you were at some of the services, it was about that and I cited source after source because People who differ with me, religious people who differ with me, they'll say, well, you know what, Dennis, don't bad things start with bad thoughts? And that, that's like saying, Dennis, don't hit-and-run drivers start by driving, right? Every, every hit-and-run driver started by driving. But the argument against driving is absurd. The number of people with bad thoughts who do good is gigantic, and the number of people with good thoughts who do bad is also gigantic.

I think we agree about the bad thoughts and the good thoughts. I think our discussion, at least to me, is more about motives.

Yes, even motives, yes. Right, yeah, that's true. It's not the same as thoughts.

It's not the same. Let me give you a contemporary example. Vivek Ramaswamy. Vivek is both loved and hated by Republicans. It's really been interesting to see. There are some people who really—

what do they hate about him?

They call him Vivek the Fake. They say that he apparently— and again, I'm— I really want to be careful before I say these things because this is what I read, but I haven't substantiated. I'm telling you what I heard. Okay. It could be false. I heard that he was on like the COVID board in the state of Ohio and he voted for lockdowns or he advocated for lockdowns in 2020. People are saying he took like a Soros money grant. Again, I could be— my details could be off on this, but what I've been hearing and reading, this is what people are saying, that he was— said some critical things about Trump and then kind of turned around. Anyway, here's the point. I think that Vivek says when he's railing against the administrative state and climatism and the victim mentality that we have in this country, I think he's excellent. I think he would be an excellent president. But a lot of people are focusing on his motives of getting into the race because they say, although what he is saying right now I agree with, there's evidence that this guy may not be what we think he is. And we don't want him to win the presidency and turn out to be a fake.

So that's not motives. Is he lying about what he's saying now in light of what you're reporting might be true then? Here are the— here are your options. It's— he's saying everything he is saying just to get elected. He doesn't believe a word or very little of what he says. Number 2, he has changed his mind and does mean what he says. Number 3, the things that are reported in the past are not accurate.

Right.

So there are— those are three possibilities, right? He has changed his mind. He is insincere. He is misreported. Those are your three options. So being a public figure, let me tell you, the number of people who believe, for example, that I advocate people use the N-word. Oh yeah, is in the millions because of the left lying pure lies about what I actually said. And they, they, they quoted just as Bill O'Reilly, by the way, is fascinating how he said there's a 6-second video on CNN when they're doing a report on Fox on CNN and, you know, the stars of the past. And so he said, I mean, show Told me what they took, and then he told me the context. When you don't give the context of a comment— when I said it is absurd that we can never say the N-word, and I even said it is despicable to call a Black the N-word, but I said we can say kike. We don't say the K-word, right? And that's the N-word with regard to Jews. That's all I was referring to.

We say fuck.

Oh, we say yes, but it is horrible to say it about a gay person.

Of course.

But to say the word, right? The Jacksonville— in a recent, I don't know, I think some racial incident, the Jacksonville— I believe it was Jacksonville, Florida— police chief, a Black man, used the N-word, the whole word, in a press conference. To say what was said, was that wrong? Of course it wasn't wrong. Was he going to say he used the N-word? It almost sounds— do you know there is no other word that people say that about?

No, it's a good point. And the point is you were not advocating that.

Yes, that's right.

Like when I just said, fuck, it's horrible to call gay person that, but we can say the full word when we're referring to it in this way.

Yes, that's all it means. Just like, do I want Jews called kike?

Of course.

If you do, you're a despicable human being if you do that. But that I can't say the word? Am I? I was talking about McCullough's biography of Truman. Truman used both the K-word and the N-word. And I said I could say the K-word, kike, but I can't say the N-word. That's absurd.

Right. So your point, bringing it back to the point, is that, is that we're talking about—

Yes, about Vivek. So I don't know. That's— it's a big problem. The press is utterly untrustworthy.

It is.

I literally do not know when the New York Times is telling the truth. I have no idea. They don't always lie, but they lie so often, or they omit so often and thereby lie, I never know when it's true. The only time I know that the New York Times is telling the truth is if there is no political dimension.

Right.

The number of people killed in an earthquake in Ecuador, I believe the New York Times.

Yes. Yes. Can I pivot for a moment, shifting away just for a second about this motives discussion? Because what you just said about the press is so true. You know, a moment— and I know this is sort of not common for Dennis and Julie because we kind of stay, stay macro, but I'll relate this to a macro— this, this micro news story to a macro subject. But you know what really shook me recently was when Tucker Carlson released the video that Speaker McCarthy handed over to him, the 40,000 hours of January 6th footage that was not shown to the public by the January 6th Committee. Tucker Carlson showed the QAnon shaman, Jacob Chansley, that guy with horns who was thrown in prison for a 41-month sentence for insurrection or whatever the heck he was charged with. Tucker Carlson showed this footage of 9 different Capitol Police officers escorting Jacob Chansley through the inside of the Capitol, opening the doors of the Senate to him. Jacob Chansley goes up to the front of the Senate and leads a prayer in which he thanks the Capitol Police officers for helping him get into the Capitol. The officers on tape are right there, and that was not shown to the American people. Until the House switched to Republican. The speaker got the footage, handed it over to Tucker, and Tucker showed all of us that. I mean, that alone. And this guy, this guy was, thank God, released from prison as a result of that footage because that footage was not shown during his trial and it was exculpatory evidence that was not, that was not provided. So he was released from prison. And obviously there are so many examples of the media. The Hunter Biden thing was, was Russian. The laptop was Russian disinformation. COVID came from a bat. Donald Trump colluded with— I mean, we could write paragraphs of lies, but for some reason that one really shook me because I'm like, how can the American people not see what's going on here? That this— I mean, that was a bombshell thing that Capitol Police officers were leading people on January 6th through the Capitol and that he led a prayer on their behalf. What do you— I mean, What an old America would be so outraged by this. People would understand even if they didn't, you know, even, even if they're not Republican, you know, even if they're the staunchest, most Trump-hating Democrat. The American people used to be able to see something like that and understand we have been lied to. Are we just jaded? Do people not care that they're being lied to? I don't understand why that wasn't more of a, of a Received as a bombshell.

A number of people don't know they're being lied to, don't care to know that they're being lied to.

But I tell— I'm sorry to interrupt you. I have shown that clip to Democrats and they go like, oh, well, you know, there's a lot, a lot of shady stuff that they deflect. They just say something stupid. All right.

So that's what— well, isn't that what I just said? They don't want to know the truth.

Well, you said— well, right. The first thing you said is they don't know that they're being lied to. The thing that frightens me—

that's fair, that's correct.

The thing that frightens me is when they are—

yeah, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter why.

Well, it was so last night, uh, at Arizona State University, uh, or last night, uh, a few nights ago, to be precise, for when this is aired. So, uh, Charlie Kirk and I were speaking to a large student group, or a large group of students, to be more precise. So a guy got up because Charlie kept saying, if you differ with us, come up first. So a guy comes up to the microphone on the floor and says, it's not a lie when we say men give birth. We're not saying that 'XY chromosomes give birth.' Is everybody clear what I'm saying?

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

Men have XY chromosomes, women have 2X chromosomes. I believe it's—

So I'm sorry, repeat what he said.

So he says, 'We're not saying that XY chromosome people give birth. We're saying that men give birth,' or something to that effect. 'We're not— you are being irresponsible, Mr. Prager.' in implying that the left says men give birth. So I said, but that's exactly what the New York Times, the American Medical Association, the Washington Post, CNN, that's exactly what they say. And I looked at the audience and said, my friends, one of us is not telling you the truth. So finally he said, this was precious, well, Both can be right. And what this man, this young man, did, and millions of Americans are doing, is figuring out how to lie, because the lie is the narrative that keeps them from confronting evil. He made up this joke. It's a joke. We can both be right. You can't both be right. Either men give birth or they don't give birth, right? But he had— he had— he had the— I don't remember dialogues as well as, as you would, uh, for example.

But because I'm a woman, I'm XX.

Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right.

I'm a woman and I'm XX.

Wow, on every grounds. The, the convoluted reasoning people will use, because if a liberal had to confront— a liberal, not a leftist— if a liberal had to confront the amount of left-wing lies that permeate our society, they would enter cognitive dissonance. How do I vote Democrat when I'm being told you went through your own list of lies, big lies, Not the Trump lies of exaggerating how many were at his inauguration, which I couldn't care less about.

Right.

Big lies that affect society, that your daughter could become a boy. That's a giant. It's a horrific lie. It's not just a lie. It's a Goebbels-like lie. It's gigantic. It's a life-shattering lie. It's a society-shattering lie. But liberals Won't, won't either. They say, oh, it's just a fringe. The numbers, they always say that's what they say. Oh, look, that's crazy, Dennis. But, but, you know, who thinks that way?

Like Bill Maher said to you on that famous clip about men menstruating. People.

Oh, no, no, not even small amount of people. It was worse. Dennis, where'd you come up with that one? He thought I made it up.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. You know, what you say is so true. There are people who don't, for whom it is too like life-shattering to comprehend and internalize that they have been wrong and that they have been lied to. There are some people who clutch on to their worldview like, you know, it is the most important thing to him, to them. And they can't, they, no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary, they will not relinquish that worldview because I think they view it as an indictment of their whole way of thinking. And it is, it is. No, it is.

They're right.

I'm just explaining that, that people—

no, that's why I said cognitive dissonance, it would be shattered.

It's almost like coming to the realization that your husband has been cheating on you for your whole life.

That's right.

I think some people would rather say, oh nope, nope, right, right, not cheating on me, not— that didn't happen.

Excellent, excellent analogy. Analogies are important.

Yes, I learned that from you. You're— you are the analogy shaman.

The analogy shaman.

Jacob Chansley's the Q. And by the way, Q, I just want to say for the record, did you ever hear of QAnon before the left started talking about it? Never.

I give you my word. I would be prepared to take a lie detector test.

Me too. Never heard of it.

I have never seen a Q. I don't know what QAnon is.

You— they talk about it.

This is a good example of a left-wing gigantic lie. Yes, we get our marching orders from something none of us know anything about.

And by the way, Dennis Prager is saying, I mean, you, you are, you have a conservative politics like, like no one else, you know?

Well, certainly among the most.

And right.

Alan Estrin, who does so much research on these matters to send me articles every day.

He never heard of it either.

Well, we all heard of it now, but none of us go to it. We don't know what the hell it is.

I still don't know what it is.

I don't know what it is.

Is it like a chat? I don't know. A site, and I don't even want to go on it. I have no interest.

Or the, the, these horrific charges against PragerU of this professor that they all cite. Well, they don't really have racist things on their site, but they have dog whistles to racists, or people going to their site will be led to go to racist sites.

Mm-hmm.

What does that even mean?

You know, I said on this show recently that ideologies are as much of luxuries as fine cars, jewelry, vacation homes, etc. In addition to ideologies being luxuries, ideologies can also be as irresponsible as drunk driving or as, you know, going to school high on marijuana. We don't see our ways of thinking that way as being A, luxuries, and B, what was the word I used? Not reckless as— damn, it started with a D. Bingo. Dennis and Julia bingo is when you forget certain things.

Doesn't matter though. Go on.

I love the audience is listening going, they just heard me say it and they're screaming it in their minds.

Painful.

Okay. As reckless. But you know, like, so recently I was, I was talking about what's going on with Russell Brand. He's being accused of, of rape and sexual assault.

And what, 18 years ago or something?

Yeah. From 2006 to 2013. Look, we don't know if he did it. We don't know if he didn't do it. But the UK Parliament, a member of the UK Parliament, do you know this? Sent Rumble, which is the video platform, a letter. Dennis Prager saying, are you going to still have Russell Brand on your platform in the wake of these allegations? Are you going to allow him to monetize, get money off of his denying these allegations? That is terrifying. And one of the things I said when I reported on it is this is the offshoot of the believe all women slogan that has been passed around. I literally, if you look at the past, like 8 years. I can chart this on a graph. It starts out in a classroom or at a restaurant or, you know, just chatting casually with friends. Oh, we have to believe all women, believe all women. Then that ideology, that idea circulates like a virus. Then it becomes mainstream. People believe or people really adopt this idea, believe all women, believe all women. And then it becomes such a part of our culture that it goes all the way up to literally a member of the UK Parliament now trying to demonetize this guy because he's been accused of something. He hasn't even been proven to have done it, but because we should believe all women, he should be deemed as guilty before being proven innocent.

Believe all women means women can't lie. It is an offshoot of something I heard in the '70s at college or university. It was graduate school then. And that was blacks can't be racist. Blacks cannot be racist.

Yes.

Women cannot lie. They don't. They're the opposite of everything I believe. The left, we— they don't divide the world between good and bad, but between male and female, black and white.

We need to start stigmatizing those ideas as being— as this is the word— irresponsible. That was the word I used.

Yeah, you said it began with D.

I know, I realized that was so stupid. I don't know, I thought I had—

was it—

I thought it—

irresponsible.

Irresponsible. That's what it was. Yes, I know, I realized that was— that was wrong. Um, I— we, we need to stigmatize those ideas as being irresponsible. We don't think of ideas as being irresponsible. We think of of drunk driving is being irresponsible. But, but saying that no Black person can be racist and all women should be believed, that is irresponsible because it leads to what we're seeing now.

It's, it's immoral. Irresponsible is too mild. It is literally the opposite of morality, right? Because it doesn't judge truth. It judges who says it.

But people don't care about morality. I'm not disagreeing with you, but people don't That's not going to resonate. It's immoral. Reckless and irresponsible might resonate more.

That's interesting. I wonder. Well, I would say this among those who already believe that Blacks can't be racist, which is we're talking about a broad swath of society. Blacks cannot be racist is not even just left. It's now liberal. So I don't know who, whom it would register among, but it is, it is worthy of making those points, which is why we exist.

We try.

Thou et moi. Any final thought?

What's your Instagram?

My Instagram is doing well. And yours?

I said, what's your Instagram? Not how's your Instagram.

That's very personal. I mean, you know, I'm very open.

It's actually not that personal.

What's your Instagram?

Well, your handle is @thedennisprager. So it's— if you're the Dennis Prager, you're public.

The Dennis Prager.

Yes. Your Instagram's great. They post really good clips from Dennis and Julia and radio. Yes. So you can follow Dennis at @thedennisprager. You can follow me at @julierhartman. I haven't been elevated to the status of the yet. Maybe one day I will. And you can catch Dennis and Julie—

So would you rather be the or happily married?

What do you mean?

Would you rather be the Julie Hartman?

Yes.

Or a happily married woman who isn't the Julie Hartman?

Why can't I be both?

I didn't say you can't. I'm asking which you want more.

What do you think?

Happily married.

Yes. The first question Dennis Prager ever asked me was if you had one guarantee in life, would it be career or marriage?

I said marriage.

And I was still kind of a liberal back then.

Yeah, yeah.

See, that's final point shows you, I used to say that I was like awake or I like came to conservatism. I actually think it was always in me and PragerU brought it out and people like you gave me the vocabulary to attach to it.

That's fair.

So I think there's a lot of people for whom that is, True for, but they need things. They need PragerU. Anyway, you can watch Dennis and Julie every Monday on this channel, the Julie Hartman YouTube channel. It premieres at 1:00 Pacific, 4:00 Eastern. And of course you can listen to it anytime by downloading it on Apple and Spotify. But I think watching it is particularly fun.

In this case, yes. In my radio show's case, I hope Salem doesn't mind me saying, I don't think it matters. For us, I think it, it's very more engaging.

So you can see my outfits at the very least, and Dennis's outfits too.

That's the first thing on people's minds.

Shalom everyone. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you indeed.

Oh, and Julie at julie-hartman.com. Forgot to throw that in there.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, are sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values are Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

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