Dennis & Julie: God and Country

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hey everybody, it's Dennis and Julie. I think it's pretty clear who's who. Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman. And Julie, will you agree with me? And you don't have to— that goes without saying. But I have this observation. I may have made it to you on our podcast or not, but it doesn't matter. So we just did one a week ago, right?

Are you going to say the fastest unit of time?

Yes.

We have discussed this.

Do you feel that too? Because I wonder if it happens as you get older. You feel it too?

Absolutely.

It's mind-blowing. It's just mind-blowing. By the way, there's another, another lesson in all of this. Forgive me. Anything— this is really— Alan Estrin is the, is the living embodiment of this. Do anything regularly and you will achieve an immense amount. I People don't know the power of good habits.

Oh, absolutely. I mentioned this, I think, a few weeks ago. I listened to you at the very beginning say— when I say the very beginning, when I first discovered you, I mean— I remember you said just read for 5 minutes every single day.

Yeah.

If you think you don't read enough, and then at the end of the year you will have read 7 books or 8 books.

Right.

And that's something I've taken with me.

It's the, it's the regularity that, that accomplishes something. And just so, so here we already have— what, what is this, number 17?

17.

This is mind-blowing.

I know.

I, I— that, that really does, uh, even amaze me. So anyway, yesterday was Independence Day, and I, I covered this subject on my show because it really It bothers me a lot. For two generations now, that means yours and even your parents, that's a lot. And I would say even going back, no, no, not to mine. I had God and country. My generation was raised with the significance of God and the significance of country. And your generation, and even the one preceding you, has not, generally speaking. And so I ask the simple question: if God and country are not central to you, what is?

Well, they're central to me, but they're not central to people my age. Oh, I know.

Yes.

Right, just to make that clear. I think you were raised that God and country are significant. We were raised that ourselves are significant, and that's it.

God bless you, because my, uh, my show was that question: what does a generation without God and country get raised with? So you, you've— your answer is the self. All right, expound on that for a moment.

Well, I'm actually— I was just telling you before the show, I have it here in my lap. I'm reading G.K. Chesterton's book Orthodoxy. I have to make a plug for it, you guys. It's an incredible book. And he talks about— he says that a motto of the modern world is that you believe in yourself. And he says that that's very damaging because you need to obviously believe in something greater than just yourself, because if you just believe in yourself, then you really don't have any moral compass. By the way, you— I know you've mentioned this before— one of your most controversial PragerU videos is when you said that without God, murder is wrong. Everyone freaked out. Oh yes, sorry, isn't wrong. Everyone freaked out about that. I didn't quite understand that. But if— I think your point was that if you are just— if you just believe in yourself, then you are your own god and you get to dictate your own rules. And that's what we are told. Oh, throughout my life, I was always told to believe in myself. I was always taught that morality is relative.

Well, yes, hold on, hold on. Just on morality is relative is of course a given, but you have really made me think about something. I don't think my parents or an uncle or an aunt or a grandparent ever once said to me believe in yourself.

I'm very lucky that my parents did not say that either. They said, you know, have confidence in yourself and your abilities, but it was never, you get to decide your own rules in life. You know what's funny? I was thinking the other day, um, G.K. Chesterton's book made me think about this. How often do we hear the saying on the left, speak your truth?

Oh, your truth.

There's no such thing as your truth or my truth. Okay. There, there's your experience or my experience, your opinion, but there is the truth, right? And so now it really is an appropriate saying for the left because you are the determiner of your own truth.

Now I'm still transfixed. Forgive me, every point you made is valid and correct. Oprah Winfrey, I remember saying, well, the, you know, what's your truth? And it shook me up. But the believe in yourself— so you will find this of interest I know I didn't talk about this on our podcast, so I'm curious if you've— you, you know my history with the self-esteem movement.

I think I've heard you discuss it, but remind me.

All right, so, and remind us, I was in my 30s when the self-esteem movement began, of course in California, like most bad ideas. And I remember the man who developed it, John Vasconcellos, for— I Vasconcelos, I believe that's the pronunciation. He was a state senator, if I'm not mistaken, in California, Democrat. And he came up with this. He said that this is the most important issue to, to, for society to address. Evil comes from lack of self-esteem. That was his theory. So you'll find this story fascinating.

That's So wrong, it's the dead opposite.

Right, other than that, it's perfect, yes.

Yes.

So he was a Catholic. I don't know if he stayed Catholic. And no, he was an ex-Catholic, right. And he said he grew up Catholic and they told him what a sinner he was and all this stuff. And then he went to therapy as an adult and the therapist made it clear to him his lack of self-esteem was his big was his big problem. And so he extrapolated from his own issue with self-esteem to society, and they started the program at $250,000, which at the time was something, but it didn't matter. It rocketed into orbit, the self-esteem movement. I actually interviewed him.

Really?

I wonder if there is a video of that interview.

So wait, I just want to understand. So when you say that he was the quote-unquote founder, maybe that wasn't the exact word.

Yes, he was.

What do you mean by that?

Oh yes, he was the one who pushed California to start the Commission on Self-Esteem.

Was he a politician?

Yes, he was a state senator.

Okay, got it. Yes, you may have mentioned that.

Yes, that's right, I did. Doesn't matter. So he He took the micro and made it into the macro. I lacked self-esteem. That was an issue in my life. Therefore, that's the issue in society's life.

What a typical left-wing view. Me, me, me. I can— well, that's what we're seeing all the time with these liberal policies. It's that they just believe in themselves. They don't think that they're beholden to anyone but themselves. They think that they know better. They are wiser than all the rest of us, and they can enforce their worldview onto us.

Oh, he totally believed that. Yes, he, he, he, it isn't even that he was arrogant. It was that it was a given. If this is true for me, it's true, right? By the way, just, just, there are two incredibly important things to note on that. One is the number of people who have done massive good in this world who had low self-esteem is enormous.

Yes.

And there are many people, because of low self-esteem, they do a lot of good to make up for or the defects that they feel about their own character.

Yes, that is what Chesterton says. Chesterton says that once upon a time we had a very healthy balance where people doubted themselves appropriately but they believed in the truth.

Yes.

And now it's the dead opposite.

Yes. Yeah, that's the dead opposite. And the other is told to me by— oh God— a, a very, very prominent criminologist. His name will come to me later. He was, he was at Case Western in, in Cleveland, and then he went to University of I believe, and he was on my show a few times. I had great respect for this man. He said that the— and he's been working with violent criminals his whole life as a psychologist— the people with the highest self-esteem, he said, are murderers.

Yep. Well, look at Stalin and Hitler.

Yes, well, all right, that's mass murder.

You don't need that high self-esteem, right?

Yeah, no, no, that's a very good point. That's exactly right.

Yeah.

But it's true for the individual too. Look, wait a minute, let's make it— it should be obvious. I murder thinking I am important, you're worthless.

Yes.

If you believe the other person is as important as you, you can't murder them.

You're right. No, it's a problem. And by the way, I want to define for our listeners what I mean by— and what Chesterton meant by believe in oneself. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have confidence in yourself or that you should doubt your abilities. But what, what I mean by when I say that people believe in themselves is that they think that they are the arbiters of their own truth. They get to decide in life what is life and wrong. So what is right and wrong? Did I say life and wrong? Right and wrong. Forgive me.

Okay, it's not a big deal.

It's a holiday weekend. My brain has been shut off. I'm still on vacation.

Yes, Roy Baumeister. Yes, thank you very much. Roy Baumeister, B-A-U-M-E-I-S-T-E-R. Yes, and he's written about that. So, uh, oh, I had the— Roy Baumeister threw me off. There is something I wanted to just tell you. Uh, we were talking about the, um, uh, believing in oneself, believing in one's— all right, it'll come to me later. The, the importance of this, it can't be overstated.

No, it can't.

The, uh, that's the way Kids are raised to think so highly of themselves. Oh yes, here's my perfect— yes, I remember, a perfect story to illustrate the point. So I have had 3 big dialogues with the famous lawyer Alan Dershowitz. Alan, he's—

Oh yes, Harvard Law professor.

That's right, he's a Harvard Law professor, exactly, and he is a lifelong liberal, lifelong Democrat. He's not a leftist. And he's very courageous and he's lost all his friends because he's not a leftist. Liberals who are true to liberalism are anti-left. That's the way it works. But anyway, so we dialogued in New York City, in Miami, and in LA. The first one was in New York City. This is at least 20 years ago. And it was about should Jews be liberal or conservative. And the issue arose about belief in the Torah, the central book of Judaism and of Christianity for that matter. And that's the first 5 books of the Bible. So I, at some point I said, ladies and gentlemen, I just realized the biggest difference between Alan Dershowitz and myself.

When Professor Dershowitz differs with the Torah, He thinks he's right, right, and the Torah is wrong. And when I differ with the Torah— this is you speaking— I think I'm wrong and the Torah is right. Yes, you said that in your commentary.

In which commentary?

In your Genesis commentary.

Oh, oh, did I?

Yeah, you quoted that. I thought that was great.

So did I write in the commentary what his reaction was?

He said, that's absolutely right.

Yes, the first time tonight Dennis said, I agree.

I highlighted that. I mean, of course I highlight everything. I'm sorry, it's a compliment, but it's true. I highlight everything in that, in that commentary. But I really appreciated that because I, I identify with that so much. I feel the same way when it comes to religion or to, um, you know, my elders, people who are older than I am. Of course, I don't just blindly follow my parents, but I I am happier knowing that I am not as wise as the Torah. I am happier knowing that I am not as wise as my parents. I don't view that as a knock against myself. I view that as a great thing because I have an opportunity to learn, and I'm happier as a result of that.

The thought that, that everyone who preceded me was dumber than me—

that's a terrifying thought.

Terrifying.

Terrifying.

You have no guardrail. There is nothing You're on complete— you're on quicksand.

Yes.

And yet that is what every leftist, every— there is no exception. If you don't believe it, you've left the left.

Yeah.

I am smarter, wiser, finer and kinder than everyone who preceded me. The founders are scum compared to me.

Okay. I know I've mentioned Chesterton like 80 times and I'll probably mention him 80 more times throughout this podcast, but he makes a point in I'm going to bring it back to this, where he says that he's comparing insane and sane people. And he says that, you know, we think of insane people as the ones who have such a crazy imagination that their mind has just gone way too far. He says actually, the people who are insane are not the ones who have too grand of an imagination, but they are the people who are too rational. So he says, look at someone who, for instance, thinks that they're Jesus Christ, and someone says to them, "No, you are not Jesus Christ," that person may respond, "Well, of course you're saying that to me because everyone doubts Jesus's divinity." Or he gives another example of how someone—

Wait, so how does that apply to the rational part?

Because it is sort of a brutally rational thing to think that someone would deny that you are Jesus because Jesus' divinity was always doubted. So another example, it's probably a better example than this Jesus one, is he says, you know, someone who is very paranoid and a cop comes up to them and asks what that person's name is, they may think to themselves, using brutal rationality, "Oh, well, that cop actually knew my name before and approached me because he's out to get me." because that would be something a cop would do. A cop would probably be able to have the information to get your name beforehand, and they would probably be able to find you, etc. So Chesterton is saying that a lot of the times the people who are purely insane view life with such a rigid rationality that it goes way too far. Anyway, bringing it back to the point that we're discussing now, with that Jesus example that he gave, the person that's thinks that they're Jesus. He says, what a sad existence to think that you are Jesus Christ. I am like, wouldn't you be so much happier knowing that you are not and that there is some right great divine figure who, you know, knows better than you, right? Sees everything.

It is frightening to me, right? I've often thought this: if I'm the best guy around That is really scary.

It is terrifying.

I don't want— I, I would like to be as good as possible, but yes, I all— I pray there are a lot better people.

Well, Chesterton's point in both of those examples was it's a burden and it's, it's just, it's not fun. I mean, well, first of all, let me back up. He's making two points. He's saying that the insane people are too brutally rational, but also the second point is It is a very sad life when you think that you are important enough to be Jesus Christ. When you think you are important enough that a police officer would approach you on the street and secretly know your name and have an entire vendetta against you. When you put yourself at the center of the universe, that's actually a very isolating thing.

So in a sense, paranoia is a form of narcissism.

Oh, totally.

I never thought of that.

That's what he's arguing.

Until now.

Yeah.

Right, so every paranoid person should adopt my friend Joseph Telushkin's high school revelation to me.

Yes.

Dennis, I realized something. What's central to you is peripheral to everybody else.

Yes, that's a great line.

Isn't that a great line?

That is. I agree with that too. Well, another example that he gives, I think it will illustrate the point better. It was a slog, this chapter. I had to read it over a few times to really understand it, but I think he makes an important point. And again, he's arguing that you need— so this book is a defense of Christianity. And what I appreciate about it is that he's not arguing from a glory of God, Jesus will save your soul standpoint, not that there's anything wrong with that. But I do think his argument is unique. And he essentially posits that when you have a religious life, you see the world as a magical place. You have such a greater sense of imagination and mystery, and it leads to a richer life. And he says that that sense— it's sort of your point, Dennis, when you say that people need irrationality in their lives. They need some kind of outlet to have an imagination, believe in something mysterious.

Safe outlet.

Yes, a safe outlet, exactly. Because we, as we see now, people who don't have religion, they bring their irrationality into their politics. But Chesterton says that a sense of imagination just makes you a healthier person. And so he gives an example of, you know, someone who's very carefree in life just walks down the street and they click their heels on the sidewalk, or if they have a cane, they'll just swipe a blade of grass because they're healthy, you know, they're just, they're walking down the street, they're doing sort of bizarre things that mean nothing to them because they have an imagination and they're healthy. But he says that people who are very rational, again, would see someone walking down the street clicking their heels and go, oh my gosh, why are they doing that? They must be signaling to an accomplice who's hiding in the bushes to jump out and come attack me. So in other words, what Chesterton is trying to say is he's using this as an analogy to say that if you see the world from a very secular, desiccating, rational in a very rational way, you lose your sense of those small, sort of imaginative things that people do that make you healthy.

Well, beauty isn't rational.

Right.

The most powerful things— being moral isn't necessarily rational. The people who hid Jews in the Holocaust were not acting rationally. Oh, totally.

Absolutely.

They were just acting beautifully.

Sometimes telling the truth isn't rational.

Yes, look, but it's a value. The reason it's very important for me to say this, because we live in the age of irrationality. The secular world is more irrational than any modern religious world I am aware of, or in the Judeo-Christian world at any rate. The Iranian regime is religious and completely irrational, but reason is like oxygen. You can't live without it, but it's not enough. Yes, it's necessary but not sufficient, right? That's what the, the, the secular thinker doesn't realize. Reason— their promotion of reason, I share, but it's not enough, right? It's necessary but not enough, right?

And these people strive to be so rational that they actually become irrational. I think that's Chesterton's point and your point too.

Irrationality believes—

Well, I wish that, yeah.

The only, I don't know exactly. I don't know if they're, they think they're striving to be rational.

Right.

I mean, please, America is systemically racist is not rational.

I know. By the way, 'cause we started off this conversation talking about the 4th of July, I have to tell you yesterday I was on my Instagram and I did not see one patriotic post. Not one. In fact, I saw about a dozen posts that were blatantly America-hating. I can read some of them to you. Yes, it was, it was—

so what does it mean? These were sent to you or what?

No, they were, they were posted on Instagram. Um, so this one individual posted a picture of an American flag with flames in the background burning, right? And said, I don't think America deserves a birthday party today.

And so where was this? Where did you see this?

Again, on Instagram.

I understand that. So was it an Instagram account that you normally view?

Yep. So you have followers.

So you were a follower of this?

Yes. These are people who I've gone to school with.

Okay, that makes it more powerful. This is not random.

Um, and then another person wrote, the Fourth of July. America doesn't deserve a birthday party today. Yep. So then another one goes, and by the way, I'm sorry, I know I bring up my college a lot. These are all Harvard graduates, you know, graduates of private school, uber privileged people. Okay. These, and I think that's an important point.

It's very important.

So the people who have benefited the most from America are the ones that are the biggest ingrates. Yes. The biggest ingrates. So then another one goes, the 4th of July represents the settler colonial urge to celebrate American independence from Great Britain. On occupied indigenous territory. Okay. Then—

Who?

Oh, sorry. Let me just say this one and then I'll— 'Cause you're really gonna hate this one. This was my least favorite. There's a girl holding up a sign. Apparently she was at a protest yesterday. Can you imagine spending your Fourth of July going to a protest? And she wrote, the Fourth of July is canceled due to a lack of independence.

What does that even mean?

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So That's the Pima County— it's in Tucson area— issued an F— then they use the word, the whole word— F the Fourth.

Can you believe it?

Because there was a women's rally also on July 4th, women's protest called F the Fourth. That was the name of the rally.

Oh, I believe it. It's, it's so—

so when I say kids aren't given God and country, I'm I'm literally accurate.

Oh, you are. Oh, absolutely. So I was, you know, Dennis, I, I think I've mentioned this on the podcast before. I very rarely, if ever, post political things on social media because I think that's, I mean, our whole world today is, has turned very political. People really don't know how to talk about anything else but politics. I have found in, in my circles, an example of that is my 4 days of graduation festivities a few weeks ago. Every single speech was political. Now there is no insight into life other than the realm of the political. So anyway, that's just to say I really am against it. I think I like social media for being a place where I can keep up with people with their lives outside of the political realm. But I was so mad seeing these horrible America-hating posts that I had to write a response. And so then I posted this, I posted two messages. The first one I said, I would like to respectfully ask the people who have been posting America-hating messages today. Why do you still live here if it's so terrible? And a lot of people, by the way, were very encouraged by my message. They wrote to me and they said, thank you, Julie, thank God you wrote that. But I also got a lot of responses.

I mean, do you have any of the responses?

Sure, yes. Well, let me first read you the second thing that I posted, and then I will read the responses. So the second post, I said, we have no idea how lucky we are to live in this country. So much of the world would kill and has killed to come here. This nation is not perfect, but those of us who are lucky enough to be American should be bursting with gratitude today. I know I am. Happy Fourth.

Great.

Because you know what? I know that I need people to see—

bless you.

Yes, I could not stay silent and just let that happen.

Before you write the response, I just want to make clear one of my arguments for people to come out of the closet who who love Judeo-Christian values, love this country, etc., they will have support. That's right.

And they will encourage other people to do the same.

You can't be found by people who are like you if you're in the closet, right?

So here's one of the responses I got, um, respectfully. This girl wrote to me, not everyone can just pick up their lives and move. It takes a very privileged and financially stable family/person to be able to make that choice. Even discounting money, you have to factor in what relationships and social ties you have. I think in light of everything that's been happening with climate change, guns, and abortion, it is not unreasonable that people don't feel patriotic today.

Okay, by the way, I have a lot of responses. So yes, and I want to hear them, but I respectfully— I don't tell people if you don't like it, move because those are— she has legitimate answers. Everybody I love is here, right? If I pack up, I pay a terrible price and I don't know Danish. So I understand that. Yeah. Although theoretically they should move to Canada, which is so left-wing they'll feel truly at home. If you don't agree with the government on vaccination mandates, They ban you from using your credit card and having access to your money, which is what Trudeau did for a few weeks there until the outcry around the world was so great. He is really Castro-lite. But so we, you people like you and I, should develop an answer to if it's so awful I like to ask, where is it better?

Well, that is—

Rather than you should move there.

Well, I phrased the question. I said, again, I would like to respectfully ask the people who have been posting America-hating messages today, why do you still live here if it's so terrible? I don't know if this is going to make sense, but I meant it more as a rhetorical question than a genuine question.

No, I know, but they have the right to answer.

No, and they do, and they do, and I understand that. I'll give you a response to that.

Or, but if you wrote, just for the record, there is a country that we board that is exactly aligned with your values, Canada. Give it some thought. Something like that.

Well, also I think again, and I mentioned this a few minutes ago, but it is very important to reiterate. I had a specific audience in mind when I posted this. Again, I think every single one of the roughly 12 posts I saw came from uber, uber privileged people who, trust me, have the means.

Oh yeah. That part I don't think—

to be able to move.

It's just the loved ones that are here.

Yeah. So when I asked that question, again, I am, I am asking a very specific audience. I totally recognize that, you know, what that person said that some people do not have the means to move. I get that. But again, these people that are posting the America-hating messages, they could move, but they don't. And that's why I was asking them. I'm going, if you really think it's so bad and you have the resources, why do you stay here?

Well, also, I would like— I am interested to get their answer. What— who's better? Well, right, because, uh, like the New York Times has these articles about how The world's happiness list, which they make every year, I think the UN does or somebody does, and they always find Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland are at the top. But that completely contradicts their line that diversity is a blessing. They're the least, among the least diverse countries on earth.

Exactly, very homogenous.

They're all white, They're all Christian, whether they're believers or not. They all speak the same exact language.

Mm-hmm. I also really dislike— I mean, you're absolutely right that it makes no sense because these are not very diverse countries and they think that diversity equals happiness always. But I think I mentioned this a few episodes ago when we were analyzing Jacinda Ardern, the Prime Minister of New Zealand's commencement address at Harvard. Dennis Prager, you know, she was talking about the policies that she's implemented, implemented, excuse me, in her country. And I just, I hate it when people compare the United States to other nations. It's like, it's like comparing, you know, the way a huge university runs with a tiny, tiny, tiny—

with a homeschool.

Yeah, with a homeschool. I mean, it's just, you cannot, you can't compare the two.

You compare America. That's why on all of these things Oh well, Denmark does this, Finland does this, or whatever. No, compare America to Europe. Same number of people, very large.

Right.

Okay.

You mean the entire continent?

Yes, the entire continent.

Yeah, right. Well, back to this point, I do want to— I hear where you're coming from, Dennis, when you say I don't ask people that question because the girl who wrote to me does have a legitimate point. I agree and I disagree. Again, I phrase that question as rhetorical, and again, it was targeted to a very specific uber-privileged privileged audience. However, I still stand by it because no, yes, it is very difficult to move, but I would venture to say, and people could tell me that it is a very easy thing for me to say as someone who is privileged, and I can understand that, I don't even think the least privileged person in America would want to move out of America. In other words, the least privileged person in this country is infinitely better.

No one wants to move out of America. And they should, but you want them to confront that.

That's what I was trying to get at. Why do you still live here?

It's worth saying what's better. Yes, what is better? I think just even phrasing Canada, because moving to Canada is distance-wise no different than moving from California to Chicago.

Right.

And people do that all the time.

Yes.

So that's a fair one, and it also is a knock on Canada, which I think is deserved.

See, I think the reason why these people don't move to Canada is because they say, secretly know that we have it better in the United States. At some level, if they truly— again, we had this debate a while ago, may have been off air, you know, do leftists believe what they say? And I'm torn. But part of me thinks that they don't. I mean, of course, I'm speaking in generalizations. It depends on the leftist. But let's take this individual who wrote to me. You know, if she really thought America was the horrible place that she says it is, she would move. All those people would move to Canada who have the means to go, but clearly there is some part of them that recognizes that we have a better situation here than other countries. So it's, it's a bit fraudulent. It's a bit dishonest.

I, I totally agree completely, right? I, I just know they have an answer, and she gave her answer.

Yes, she did.

Yes, that's all.

I try to ask questions that they don't, that they don't have an answer to.

Well, you know, it may be Anyway, I mean, I'd go on.

No, I was just going to say it made me really sad because, you know, that, okay, maybe that question, you know, that was a bit controversial or could have gotten, you know, a few responses. I get that. But that second post I wrote saying we have no idea how lucky we are to live here.

That I love.

We, you know, people have killed to come here and of course this nation isn't perfect, but we should be bursting with gratitude. That also got a lot of bad responses and that Terrifying.

What did they say? I'm very curious.

Someone wrote to me.

Yes, what is it? I'd love to know the answer.

Someone wrote to me, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Well, that doesn't answer it.

That doesn't answer it. Um, I had someone write, um, oh sorry, let me find it.

There's a lot of responses. Wait, what are we disagreeing on? Aren't we agreeing that— so you, you, do you disagree that that vast numbers of humanity would like to move to America? Are the— as I always ask people, are all the blacks in Africa and the Caribbean who moved here— I know, you know, 3 million, uh, are, are they out of their minds?

Well, that's the point. You know, the left says that we have to let all of these immigrants in at the southern border, but I thought America is a horrible, evil, systemically racist place. Why would they want to let all of these immigrants come to this terrible country?

Yes, I know. So they answer, well, it is terrible But it's, it's better economically, right?

Yeah, right. Well, I think the thing that scared me is—

yeah, but wait, I just—

oh, sorry, no response.

Forgive me. There's no, no, no, there's an answer to that though. Okay, so is Switzerland better economically, right? Every European country is better.

They would say it's more convenient for the, you know, and it's a legitimate point from Central and South America.

But, uh, but for Africans, uh, the United States is less convenient than Europe, right? And they want to come here.

Well, a lot of people— again, that was in that girl's response that I read to you— said to me, you know, with all that's been going on, it's, it's not unreasonable for people to dislike America today. I had someone write to me—

because of what? Climate change?

She gave me 3 things: abortion and guns, she said. I had someone else write to me that she knew someone, or maybe it was a distant family friend who was involved— well, I shouldn't say involved— who was a victim of the shooting that happened yesterday. Where was that shooting again?

Chicago.

Yeah, it was in Chicago, a suburb of Chicago. You know, to write— this girl wrote to me and said, my family friends ran for their lives yesterday, you know, so as to make me feel guilty for saying that America is a great place. That was her response. And this really terrifies me, Dennis, because the left and right used to agree on this. You know, it wasn't controversial. Actually, you tell me. I've only been alive for 22 years.

The left has never agreed America is a great place. The liberals did.

Right. Liberals.

Well, and if we have liberals on our side, we win because liberals outnumber leftists.

But what I'm saying is there used to be swaths of people who did not identify as conservative or left wing. or excuse me, right-wing who would agree with that post and think that it's not controversial. All I said was we are so lucky to live in this country. Why is that liberal?

The liberals, liberals founded Hollywood and they kept making patriotic films in the 1930s and '40s.

Right.

Then, but they gave birth and raised leftists.

It just, it strikes me as so unbelievably spoiled, especially for these privileged people to put— I'm like, are you kidding me? Do you know the way the rest of the world lives? The answer is they don't. I sometimes tell people, you know, I was thinking I should write an article or a book with just bullet points of facts from other countries. For instance, I told my friend the other day, do you know that there are still slaves in many parts of the world, like Ghana? Ghana has a huge population. People couldn't believe it.

All right, so, well, you're right. Another one is You know how many— ask people how many slaves did we get from Africa. Ask people and everyone will say millions. It's 360,000.

But I was going to say 2 million.

360,000.

See, this is— if I even— I don't know this and I research all the time.

I'm very happy that— that I'm not happy you didn't know it, but I'm happy that, that this came out.

Yes.

Brazil, on the other hand, did have millions, right? And why isn't everybody speaking about how systemically racist Brazil is, how it was born in sin? And by the way, this indigenous thing that you mentioned, you know, we're all on indigenous colonialism. What group on earth?

I know, exactly.

Probably including American Indians. They didn't take lands over from Was it empty? Were there no humans here?

Right.

Maybe they weren't. Maybe they truly were the first people. That's what they're called in, in New Zealand, the First Nations. That's the term for them. Maybe they truly were the first people to ever inhabit New Zealand. But let's say they weren't. So are they on somebody else's land? And, and is that at all unique to America? Belgium is not on somebody's land. There weren't tribes before Belgium was there.

I had this debate the other day with someone a woman who said gentrification is evil. And I said, well, with all due respect, the businesses that are now being gentrified were the gentrifiers. That's just how history works.

Why? I never understood why is that bad? Because it prices the poor out of the area?

I think they would say that it, you know, it's a very sad thing if a mom-and-pop shop has been there for 50 years and it's, you know, it can't survive anymore. It's just, it's a passing. It's a sad thing.

No, that is a sad thing. Of course it's a sad thing. But it was a sad thing— it depends why it happens. I mean, it was a sad thing that all these guys who made a living making horseshoes were put out of business because of the car.

Right. I mean, we have to progress.

Yeah, well, we know that, and we mean economically, but they mean changing the value system. I'm very— I don't think we need, in terms of morality, I think love your neighbor as yourself, the Ten Commandments, you know, if your neighbor's ox is burdened, lift the burden off even if you hate the owner. That's the reason I have my Torah commentary, my Bible commentary. I don't know what I have learned morally that I didn't know in 5th grade? It's an interesting— I never thought of this.

That is an interesting question.

It really is. I can't think of a single moral insight. They always talk about moral progress, and to a certain extent there is. I mean, you know, the banning of torture and so on, that's a good thing. But in terms of insight, I don't know what I didn't know morally. I mean, I didn't know a lot about life, But morally, well, I actually think we've regressed massively because the best moral thing you can do is fight you.

Yes.

And that's not taught. It's fight America, not fight you.

Not only is it not taught, it's disparaged.

Yeah, well, yeah, well, you blame everyone else. Well, this goes back to the opening of our little podcast here, right? Believe in yourself.

Yes.

I— oh God, I can't believe it. So this is what I just did in my brain. Since I learned all these moral things in Hebrew because of my yeshiva study till 18, 19 years of age. So all of these things I learned in Hebrew, and I was thinking, did I ever hear the phrase in Hebrew, believe in yourself? So in Hebrew it's tamin batzbecha. And I thought, yes, there was one phrase in Hebrew, an ancient phrase that says, "Al taamin bat," don't believe in yourself. Really?

Oh, that's hilarious.

"Ad yo motcha," until the day you die.

Oh my gosh.

That's the phrase.

See, that's not good.

Everyone who studies Judaism knows that phrase. It is not obscure.

Well, let me tell you, you know, I mentioned my graduation a few weeks ago. There were two things I took away from it. I mentioned one a few minutes ago. Every insight nowadays is political. There is no insight into life that is non-political. Every single speech was about climate change or abortion, about changing the world. There was no just life talk. There's no wisdom.

No wisdom talk. Right.

A second thing I noticed, and this is not shocking, but it was, oh my God, it just, it really grossed me out. The amount of times that we were told, you guys are brilliant, you're the leaders of the world.

Oh no, oh no, oh God.

You, I mean, all the time. Oh, it's painful.

It's painful. And they believe it. And they believe it.

And there was someone at my house graduation who got up and said, I have no doubt that this generation will make the world a better place.

Who said this?

The news anchor? One of the deans. No, not the news anchor. I'm sure she said something along those lines, but one of my deans said that. And I thought to myself, And I'm sorry if this sounds cynical. I have no doubt if we continue the way that we're going now, make the world a worse place, right?

We'll make the world a worse place.

But, you know, I even thought to myself, even if, even if members of the audience believe that, even if they really think that we are going to make the world a better place, I would like to think that once upon a time, people disliked that kind of praise, that kind of just—

right, of course—

puffing people up, that's right, you know. I mean, right, it's so trite. It's— again, even if you believe it, if someone says to you, Dennis, you're amazing, even if you believe it, there's probably some— that's like, oh God, so trite.

See, what we were told in the traditional religious, in my case Jewish, world that I grew up in: carry on the values you learned and you will make the world better.

Right.

You won't.

Yes.

These values will.

Well, that's right. You used to doubt, as Chesterton says, you used to doubt yourself but believe in the truth.

Yes.

And now it's the opposite. I know it just—

that kind of just scared me. Well, you know, at the risk of complimenting you, the—

Oh, fine. You can compliment. Twist my arm.

Okay, fair. But you see, you— I'm only hesitating because I know exactly what I want to say, but I— it's— it sounds a little clichéd, but I'll risk it. You get it.

Thank you.

Well, and to be honest, it wasn't even— I didn't say it as a compliment.

No, I know. But still, thank you.

Yeah, you're welcome. You, you do. And I, I truly am convinced that the light goes on one day. I mean, it gets brighter and brighter until the light goes on. It doesn't necessarily overnight, but as soon as one allows oneself to question the orthodoxies of the left that have been drummed in from kindergarten to graduate school, and in the media, and television, and social media, and mainstream news broadcasts and papers. The moment— it's an interesting question, like What, what does it take to open, open a person's eyes?

That is an interesting question. I will tell you, I've said this several times, that when I quote unquote discovered conservatism, it was like walking into a dark room and having the light switch turned on. Or rather, I was in the dark room for most of my life and all of a sudden the lights and I went and I have never seen the world in the same way.

Right. I know that about you.

I don't know what it takes, but I have to tell you, it is so obvious how bad the left is now. I could sort of understand 10 years ago how people would still say that they're liberal, or again, we talk about how we should distinguish. But now it's just— it has gotten so bad. That I don't understand what it takes. I mean, again, this Fourth of July thing really hammered home just the fraudulence and dishonesty.

So listen to this. So forgive me for interrupting you because I don't want to forget this point. In their hearts, almost everyone on the left knows that they have to censor us, which they do. And the left has always done this, from Vladimir Lenin to Columbia University. And why? They are afraid that their acolytes hear anything different. I have said at colleges when I've spoken, I have said the reason they don't want me— and not just me, those who share my views to come to speak here is they, they are not confident that 4 years of indoctrination can withstand 1 hour with an articulate conservative.

Exactly.

It shows that they are not confident because we would have them in a nanosecond.

We're so confident. We know they could talk for hours and we don't care. Say whatever you want. As you know, MyPillow strives to help everyone get the best sleep of their life. They didn't stop by simply creating the best pillow. Now they have introduced a new product, MySlippers. Mike Lindell has taken over 2 years to develop these slippers. They're designed to wear indoors and outdoors all day long. They're made with MyPillow foam and Impact Gel to help prevent fatigue, and they're designed with quality leather suede. For a limited time, you will save $90 on a pair of MySlippers. This sale will not last, so order now by calling 1-800-566-6745 and use the promo code Hartman, or go to mypillow.com and click on the radio listener square and use the promo code Hartman. That's your whole point, where you have invited so many people.

Liberty University invited Ted Kennedy.

Oh God, Ted Kennedy.

All right, but I'm just giving you an example.

And was reelected to the Senate for 40 years.

Don't start me on that. That he was adulated by the left is all you need to know about the left's moral compass.

That's right. Meanwhile, Donald Trump is the worst person to ever live. But Ted Kennedy's fine. Ted Kennedy's a saint because—

because what? They don't measure what you do. They measure your personal life, which is—

they measure who does it.

By and large, none of our business.

They measure actions by who does it, not what the action is. I can tell you. Yeah, if you tell me who did something, I can tell you whether or not the left approves or disapproves of it.

Of the person?

Yes, of the person.

Yes, that's right.

Well, and actually of the action too.

Well, he, he used to, uh, have sex with waitresses with another senator, and it was called the sandwich. It was actually known Oh God. I know, I know, yes. And I never talked, by the way, I never talked about this because I don't talk about personal sins.

Right.

About public figures, I only care what they do to the public. You live an awful personal life, it's between you and those people and you and God. My task is to ask, how do you affect America? Not the people you interact with on a daily basis. That is what I argued on Trump the whole time.

Right.

I don't care if he's a fine or non-fine man.

Right.

I care if he's a fine president.

Look, I do think there is a line. I think with Ted Kennedy, when you— we know when he— oh, well, what he drove that car off the bridge like that disqualifies him for me.

That should—

we had an episode on this. Donald Trump, you know, saying that thing about, you know, grabbing, grabbing, grabbing women. You know, I thought it was awful, but it wouldn't disqualify him for me. Well, okay, that raises—

because he does such good for Mayor, or he did such good. Well, and to be honest, that raises another very important issue, which I learned from Judaism. Private and public are not the same thing.

We had this debate.

This is true.

One of our early episodes.

Yes, and I, well, only you would remember.

I do have a good memory.

Oh, good.

But I'll be honest.

No, no, no. I didn't remember at your age.

Really?

Yes. Well, first of all, women remember what is said much more than men. That's why women always say to their husbands— this is a line I do when I talk about Bedded with It and people love it— I go, ladies, you think your husband doesn't listen.

He does.

I promise you he does.

He forgets. Right.

You even know that line?

Oh yes. Oh yes.

All right.

So now that you've alerted me to it, I see it.

Of course it's true.

Right.

And it's nothing to do with age. Right. Men don't remember dialogues. They don't remember what they said, let alone what the other person said.

That's funny.

We remember batting averages.

Women remember how many times you blanked.

Oh my.

In a conversation, especially this woman.

Uh, well, you know my theory. If men were given a woman's brain, yes, they would shoot themselves.

Yes, you have said that. And you know what? You're probably right.

Yes. And if women got our brain, they would go No wonder he says nothing when I ask him, what, what do you think? Really, there is nothing going on.

Oh my gosh, that is funny.

It is true.

Yeah, it's true.

So how are you sleeping these days?

I'm actually sleeping quite well.

Well, that is worthy of its own discussion. You know, it's obviously personal, but No, I'm, I'm an open book. You have told me, and I believe it, and I have, I have actually mentioned this in talking about you, that, uh, you're not hiding who you were.

Oh, it's, it's everything.

Enabled you to sleep better.

Oh, it's everything. And I think the reason why I sleep better is, is truly because of this podcast. Because sometimes I would lie awake at night and think, oh my gosh, I want to make this point. I wish I, you know, How can I move the ball forward in America in some kind of way? And now that I have this, and my responsibilities are only going to grow once I start full-time at Salem in September, even though I'll probably, you know, be very busy and stressed out, I, I think I'll sleep great because—

you will.

I did my duty today.

I have an older brother, he's a very prominent physician, he's a professor of medicine at an Ivy League college. I won't say where, I don't want to get him in trouble. You're Dennis Prager's brother.

Oh my gosh, that poor guy.

I know. So the issue with him was many years ago, he said to me once, he said, I got to say, I envy you. I said, really? Why? I get annoyed about things going on. I tell my wife. You get annoyed, you tell millions of people.

Yes, it's very cathartic. Yes, there's no question, it's very cathartic. And I really do appreciate, again, when people write in and they say that something influenced them. Or as we read aloud yesterday— or yesterday, God, I really am in vacation mode— last week when we talked about, um, the praising issue. By the way, I had a lot of people write in saying how much they appreciated that we confronted that, and a lot of them said that they had noticed it too and they were slightly annoyed by it.

Oh, this is a very important thing that you're raising.

Yes, but many people wrote and they said, I really admire that you confronted that issue head-on. And I think one of the reasons, upon reflection, that it was really important for me to do that in that episode— hey, as you said last week, it's important to confront the elephant in the room in life. You're just healthier. It's just, it's a better way to go. But also I think it was really important for me to show how to take criticism, to provide an example, especially to young listeners, of how to do that. Because so often, and again, this dovetails nicely with what we were discussing earlier, believe in yourself. People nowadays will blame, will point the finger at anyone or anything but themselves for their failings. It's society's problem. It's my parents' problem. Blah, blah, blah. And with, with that example that we brought up, Juliet and Virginia writing to us saying that we praise each other too much, I really wanted to show, you know what, I can take that criticism and I will say I failed, or I could do better, and I take responsibility for it. And that's it. I'm not going to blame anyone else. So I'm really glad we did that, and people appreciated it.

So let me offer a thought on criticism, please. Uh, so I— and I think you know this— so for example, when I write, certainly my Bible commentary, I have about 6 editors. 6. Every one of whom is brilliant.

Yes, your wife is one of those editors, and she is brilliant. She is.

And they— the slightest logical— forget factual flaw, but logical flaw, and they will pick on. And so not only does it not bother me when, when they edit and change— you love it, of course, because it produces a better product.

Well, exactly. I mean, when you get callers into the show, you thank them for correcting you.

Yes. Why would I want to?

Why do you want Of course.

Yes. So, in fact, but I did say something last time, since you raised it again, and appropriately, I might add. I'm very happy you did, actually. I was right in pointing out to the, to the person who wrote that she couldn't listen any longer, right? That's a mistake.

Yes, I agree with that.

I do. And I, I remember there was a guy is a generation older than me. I, I, my first full-time job was the head of a, of a Jewish retreat center where we brought the greatest Jewish thinkers. Oh wow, that's— oh, I met the greatest Jewish thinkers of, of the last generation, every single one.

What a life you have.

Oh, I've had incredible— I can't wait to write my autobiography. Anyway, so one of them was a brilliant man and a liberal, not a leftist at all, a liberal, and beyond belief arrogant. I mean, it was almost— he was almost like a parody of himself. And I remember saying to my friend Joseph, who was with me at the Institute, Joseph, I don't give a damn. I learned so much from this guy.

Yes.

I couldn't care less how pompous he is. And that was my view. The package idea.

Yes.

So what do I— so he's pompous, so what?

Totally.

So, right. By the way, I don't think I'm pompous. Of course you're not. I'm not making a parallel.

I know what you're saying.

I'm just saying though that I have lived by—

You don't have one iota of pomposity, for the record.

Well, thank you. There you go, you see. But I think that's okay. Oh, compliment? Compliment, yeah. It's okay.

Sorry, Juliette, we're only at 2 today.

Anyway, pretty damn good. And we're human, which is, you know, I— we, we have to be real. But in any— that's an interesting subject unto itself, by the way. So you'll find this interesting because you, to my great, truly great joy, are consuming, not reading, my Bible commentary. I, I can't tell you— you don't know— you You— I think you know, but how much it means to me that you're assimilating that stuff. So I am now working on the, on the fourth of the five volumes, the Book of Numbers, the fourth, the fourth book of the Torah, of the Bible. And in it, it says— it's really remarkable because it's, it's called the Five Books of Moses, and there's a line in there, it says Moses was humble the most humble man on Earth.

You mentioned this, I think, last week or two weeks ago, and you said he's allowed to say that he's humble because he truly is.

Isn't that fascinating?

Yes. Well, that's the, the idea of when God declared his creation good, it was good, and he was taking credit for it.

Good one. Did you make that one up?

No, you said it. Oh, this is so funny.

That really proves I don't remember.

I really need to tell our listeners this happens a very good amount where I'll make a point and you'll go, God, that's, that's really good. And I'm like, it is your words. It's— I can tell you the page number where that comes from.

That proves I'm not pompous.

That exactly.

That's really the proof. I don't have a good enough memory to be pumped to get the credit.

You know, my dad says— my dad does that too, where I'll say something that he taught me or some story and he goes, oh, that's funny, or that's— it's your life, you told this to me.

Oh, by the way, that is a fun subject. We should try to always end with fun subject if possible. So you will see, God willing, when you'll be a parent, which needless to say I'm rooting for.

Yes.

Uh, so one of the things that has brought me great joy, but totally surprising, is when one of my sons will come out with a line and say, you know, Dad, as, as you, as you used to say.

And I'm thinking, holy crow, I made an impression.

Yes. So here's my theory. Me and theories. So here's my theory. Your kids are recording what you say. Not hearing, recording. And they will play it back, hopefully, much later. But they will play it back.

They will.

It is recorded.

You're right. You're right. I think about things that my parents said to me when I was—

which you couldn't think about then. Yes. It didn't mean much. You didn't want to hear it.

Only with life experience does it really set in.

And then it really does help.

And, you know, and I know we talk about this a lot, the importance of actions. I mean, the great thing about my parents is, yes, you know, they said to me, you, you be polite, you say your pleases and thank yous, you, you tell the truth, et cetera. But I saw them do it and that made more of an impression on me than whatever they told me. I saw my mom in the grocery store being very, very kind to the bag lady. You know, I saw my parents with my sister with severe autism visiting her every week. Actions, actions, actions.

However, however, however, actions without speech is not enough.

That's a very interesting point.

And I use the piano analogy. If you're a great pianist, you still have to give your kid piano lessons. Watching you play piano will not make them a great pianist, right? So, uh, both I would say are equally important. And that's where parents failed. They didn't speak about the good values that animated them, macro or micro.

That's right. Wow.

See, for example, let's say— here's the perfect example. So let's say your dad and you, you periodically curse. Right, use curse words, right? Four-letter words is sometimes called. So you tell your kids, you know, you shouldn't use those words. And then in the car, you know, some guy cuts you off and you utter an expletive.

Mm-hmm.

So you can say, look, I'm right when I tell you not to curse, but I'm a human too. And so are you. And sometimes it will happen.

Yes.

It doesn't nullify the rule that I have taught you.

Right.

You have to say that. Otherwise, the silly kid will think, oh, what a hypocrite.

That is exactly the right response. And I think that's a more powerful response than going, oh my God, I'm awful, I'm awful, I just cursed, I can't believe I did that. You have to provide the truly human response.

Right. Be real.

Be real. And when someone when someone is trying to teach a lesson but they're not being real— to use that example, the dad in the car, you know, condemning himself vociferously for cursing— it doesn't have the— it doesn't produce the result that you think it does, right? Being genuine and real makes so much more of an impression.

Yes. Isn't it interesting that you have to practice to be real. You would think you have to practice to act and be fake.

God, you're right.

But oh, you'll— oh God, this is going to make an impact.

Oh, Tal, please.

I could tell already because you understand the depth of what I just said. I worked very, very hard in the beginning of my speaking to not sound like a speaker. That's not easy.

No, it's not.

The moment people get up in front of an audience or talking to a microphone— hi everybody, it's Dennis Prager here and it's great to be with you on another great day—

it seems disingenuous. It is, right?

And I, I— look, you know me off the air. There is no difference in the way I speak, is that correct?

Oh yes.

That, by— that took effort.

There's no difference in who you are in any kind of way.

Right, that doesn't take effort.

Right.

But it took effort for me not to speak like a speaker, right, to speak totally normally to 1,000 people or on radio 1 million people as to one. And I tell that to everyone who goes into public life who cares to hear from me?

You know, sometimes I think that people think it is a sign of weakness to admit that morality takes effort or authenticity takes effort. We have to acknowledge that it does. For instance, I know I said this, I think it was our last episode, I was coming home from Shabbat dinner and I almost turned on, turned left without the light because it was so late. And I thought to myself, there's no one here, I could just go through the light. And I stopped myself because I really think that, you know, if I did it that time, I would get, get the idea that I could do it subsequent times. But, you know, of course, I don't think that makes me a bad person to say that I was tempted to run the light. I don't think it makes me a bad person to say the other thing. Of course.

Although it's so important. It makes you a good person.

It makes you a good person. For instance, the other day I had plans with a friend and I was really tired. I honestly, I love this friend, but I just didn't want to go. I was exhausted. And I start typing the message going, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, my mom needs me to run. And then I thought, no, she doesn't. My mom doesn't need me to run an errand. That's a white lie. And even though it's not malicious, I have to practice being truthful at all times. And I am truthful 99% of the time. The 1% is when, you know, in an instance like that where I want to get out of something, I don't want to hurt their feelings.

That's right, you don't want to hurt their feelings.

But you have to, you know, even in those small things, you have to practice it because the small things inform the big things.

I, I was also thinking of another thing when you said that. It's hard for me to think of a day that I don't do something I don't want to do.

Really?

The—

you always do things you want to do?

No, no, no, no. I— it came out wrong if it— if that's what you heard. Every single day I'm doing things I don't want to do.

That makes a lot more sense.

Okay, that— so I should have put it in the positive.

Right.

The kids should understand from the get-go, whether you want to do something or not is usually irrelevant. The issue is, what should I do? Not what do I want to do. But do you know, beginning with my generation in the '60s, There was a common phrase from, from psychotherapists, oh, you should have no shoulds in your life.

Oh God, you know, we talked about this. I feel like I'm saying throughout this podcast, we talked about this last episode, we talked about this, whatever, but we did. Um, when I said that I was burnt out from swimming and, you know, schoolwork in high school, and I said that one of of the things I appreciate is that it made me, you know, I wasn't getting caught up in the bad stuff that teenagers do because I was so busy, and it made me very disciplined, and it gave me this idea— yes, that I can, I can really do anything I set my mind to. I would also add, though, it made me— it imparted to me this very lesson that sometimes you have to do things that you don't want to do. Sometimes most of the time. Do you think I wanted to go to swim practice every single day after school and morning practice and drive to God knows where, California, on the weekends and play water polo for 3 straight games and get mauled under the water? No.

I've written 10 books. There wasn't a day in the writing of 10 books that I thought, "Oh, am I excited, another day to write." I know.

And now, and now that I've done those things, You know, like, again, the other day I wanted to— I had to drop off dry cleaning and I had to go to the post office and just, you know, errands that are not fun. And now I look at those things that I don't want to do, I go, oh, piece of cake, I'm not getting drowned in the water.

Oh, that's funny.

10 straight hours, right? Oh, you know, waiting in line at the post office and mailing a package or getting my dry cleaning, what, you know, walk in the park compared to the stuff that I had to do. So I'm grateful for that experience.

So bringing it full circle as we end our podcast, the, uh, the notion believe in yourself is, is a somewhat faulty idea. Believe that you could be something Right, is a better one.

That's right. This was fun.

It's really fun. You know why? It's really real.

It's real. I, I tell you guys, this is the exact conversation we would have on the phone or off air.

That's right. That's correct.

All right, julie-hartman.com. Actually, the email is now julie@julie-hartman.com, and I've been better about responding to everyone.

So thank you, Julie, at Julie— still Hart— it's still a dash. Yes, Julie at julie-hartman.com. See you next week.

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