Dennis & Julie: Great People

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hi everybody! Hey, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. I'm Dennis Prager. And you are?

Hoolie Jartman, as someone called me in high school.

Is that true?

Yes.

People don't forget the nicknames from high school.

Oh, you know what I would do when I would write my homework? I would do Julie and then I'd draw a heart and then I'd draw a man. And I also called myself Big Heart No Man.

Is that right?

Yes.

At what age?

I don't know, like 13, 14. I'd go big heart, no man.

Things haven't changed much.

Oh, thank you. I knew you were going to say that.

You still have a big heart.

I'm picky with— I should say big heart, very, very picky with the men.

Fair enough. You have a right to be. It's Dennis and Julie, everybody, and we really do talk about life. Did you share the 12-year-old girl's, uh, letter yet?

No. Oh my goodness, thank you, folks.

Julie got a letter. I must tell you, when she read it to me, all I thought was, I can't really believe an under-13-year-old wrote this.

Oh, it's beyond belief.

But I really think it's worthy of sharing because people don't realize how much good they could do with little things. If you let people know about Dennis and Julie, especially young people, This, this could turn their lives around because it's so real, and the real really affects people. You have it up?

I do.

Okay.

And by the way, I'd like to tell the audience, and specifically Elizabeth, who is the lovely young woman who wrote this email, the fact that Dennis remembered that— no, no shade, you don't have a great memory sometimes, correct? With just, you know, names. Yes, it shows what an impact By the way, it shows what an impact it's had.

I wanna take issue with you.

Oh, here we go. This is very important. I know what you're gonna say and I agree with you.

What?

You forget names, but you don't forget concepts.

No, no, it's about what you said.

No shade?

No.

Okay, what? I'm just gonna shut up.

She's a girl, not a young woman.

Okay, that's fair. Actually, as I was saying it, well, I didn't wanna say a young girl.

No, just say we got something from a girl.

I think of her as a woman.

Yeah, you're right.

It seems a little, you know what I mean? Even though it's not condescending, it seems—

well, little girl. I don't want to drop girl and boy from our vocabulary. That's the only reason I'm reacting.

But woman is binary.

Oh no, not because of binary.

No, I'm saying woman reflects the boy and girl.

I know, of course, I know. But my reasoning has nothing to do with the binary nonsense. It's just that there's such a thing as a boy, forgetting— I'm not talking binary, we're talking age. When I was 12, I was a boy.

I hear you. It's more about the problem of innocence rather than confusion.

And, and woman means adult, adult female.

You're right. I think that's a very good point. By the way, I called her a young woman because she's clearly so much younger.

I do get it.

But I, I take your point. I think it's a good one. Okay, let me read. So this is from Elizabeth. Dear Julie, my name is Elizabeth. I'm not going to say her last name. And I am almost 13 years old. By listening to the Dennis and Julie podcast, I learned that we have so much in common. "I live in Boston, so I know the J.P. Licks ice cream place where you used to go. My mom and I go whenever we can." I love, loved that ice cream store. Cappuccino Crunch, best flavor. "I have a brother, but he's much older than I am. He's 29 but married, and we're really close, but since he lives in a different house with his family, I feel like an only child just like you. I adore your Dennis and Julie podcast. Sometimes I watch the same episode 3 times. It's so much fun, and I know, and I think I know a word that would really suit the show." Live. It's a very live show. If that's confusing, what I mean to say is that it's really about life. You have fun but also talk about the good and the bad of life. It's about the real world we live in, and I think that's one of the charms of your show. I've always loved Dennis ever since my mom— and then she puts in parentheses, my parents are conservative— started showing me different conservative figures. I always felt Dennis was special. He's wise but also so much fun, and I'm so glad I now hear him every week with you. You really are special, and ever since I started watching the show, I've wanted to know you, I think we could become friends. I really want to be an author, a child author. I write books and poetry and hope to have them published one day. I also want to influence people and touch their lives the way you and Dennis do. Thank you for all that you do for young people like me.

I have the chills again.

She's incredible.

Incredible. Everything about it is spectacular, including that it gives you hope for the future. She's 12 years old, but that's what is Did you write like that at 12?

I will say, I don't mean it as a brag. No, no, that's fine.

No, not a brag. I'm asking you. I started writing well at 15. I couldn't, I don't think I could have written that at 12. I have no idea, but I don't think so. In any event, it's not only well written and constructed and all of that, but it's deep.

And I didn't even read—

If she, let me put it to you, forgive me, Julie.

No, please.

If she'd have said, hi, I'm Elizabeth Elizabeth, I'm a 28-year-old living in Boston. Nothing in you would have thought— this doesn't sound like a 28-year-old.

Yes.

That's what I'm saying.

And as you said to me on the phone when I read it to you a few days ago, you said this would have been an impressive email had she been 30.

Yes.

And by the way, I don't know why I didn't read these because they're so fun. She wrote, P.S., I'm a bookworm. I also love A Series of Unfortunate Events by Lemony Snicket. That was my favorite series. What other books did you like as a child? One book you must read is The Westing Game by Ellen Raskin. It's the best mystery and puzzler you'll ever read. I'm ordering it. PPS, I wanted to tell you my religion. Can you guess? She says. Actually, I'm going to kick it over to Dennis. Can you guess her religion?

Well, if she wrote, can you guess my religion? The assumption is she's not normative Christian. I, that would, that Otherwise, she wouldn't ask, can you guess?

I don't, by the way, I don't think I told Dennis this on the phone.

So no, no, obviously, we're not gonna, I'm not gonna act like we're cheating.

I know. Just clarify.

Well, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I'll guess Mormon.

No, Orthodox Christian.

Oh, interesting.

But it's very, very good guess. I bet you've never, I mean, I wouldn't have been able to guess it. I bet you've never heard of an Orthodox Christian, but we're on the list with Catholics and Protestants. Please tell Dennis about us. I've always wanted him to know about us.

I do, I do, in fact. And I'm scheduling a major Orthodox theologian on the show, really, to learn more about Orthodoxy.

She writes, uh, just two more sentences. She says, we do believe that atheists can go to heaven if their actions are good. Maybe you can visit our church when you next come to Boston. What a gracious person.

Well, that's because I said that, and, and, and The fact that she resonates, I mean, that she picks up on these— how many 12-year-olds are thinking, can a good atheist go to heaven?

I know, I would love to know. So how did you find us, Elizabeth? I'm going to write back.

Well, she did because she said her parents listened to me. I was in her life, so now you're in her life. It's a great gift.

We totally will be friends, by the way. She said, I think we will be.

Well, here is a beautiful thing I, I have done for you, and I am— I can't tell you, uh, how meaningful it is to me bringing all these wonderful people into your life. But the beauty is, from 12 to 90.

I know. And I, I— there are, there are young women in the, the, uh, description I, I said there is apt, who write to me. Stephanie comes to mind, Ruby. There are two girls who I've mentioned on the show. I think they're both 18 years old. They're seniors in, in high school, and They wrote to me. I consider them to be friends. They're, they're listeners of the show. They are remarkable, deep people. You met Stephanie, um, when you went to Florida, I believe. And now they're friends. I put them in touch.

That's right.

Because I thought, you guys, you guys are so alike. And now they, they write to each other and they're friends.

I, I, I love bringing wonderful people together.

You do an incredible job of it. I don't give a bleep if I'm complimenting him too much. Dennis has so many wonderful wonderful people in his life. And you, you have really—

I mean, well, you have done me a solid by introducing me to them, the Shabbat crew, and them to you. And I agree with you, and I love it. I love bringing people together. And I don't only mean, you know, men and women to get married— any, any two people. I just want to give you one. I really— I knew, I knew as I live and breathe this would work.

I know you're gonna say— and I was just— the musicians. Oh, I was gonna say Astrid.

Oh, Astrid and you. That, that's, that's correct. That, that gives me great joy. That was not a shock. This is not a shock though either. So I have a very close friend, uh, in the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra and a very close friend in the Philadelphia Orchestra, and I knew they would love each other. And these guys are now so close, and they, you know, they're magnificent musicians. But they have everything together.

I'd like to tell a story that I feel comfortable sharing about Dr. Marmer and how our connection. But before I do that, I'll just say there are people my age and younger, and this was, this was a, a thing in high school, I remember, who don't like introducing friends to one another. There, people tend in, in my age group to be territorial with their friends.

Yeah.

And I'm not, I'm not trying to give myself a gold medal here. I promise you. I know it sounds like I'm congratulating myself. I never got that. I'm actually not congratulating myself because it would be more of a triumph if I wanted to be territorial, territorial, but I overcame it. I didn't even understand it in the first place. You could have two of your best friends sit with— love each other, and then you could hang out not just with them one-on-one but together. Why wouldn't you do that?

So here comes a cliché, which I don't like. But it's so true, I'm gonna say it. Love is not a pie.

Yes.

Does everybody understand what I mean? If you take a piece of pie, then there's less of the pie. But it's not true for love.

That's, that's very interesting. You know, my mom was telling me about that a few weeks ago. She was just remarking that when you have more children, it's not that you love your other children less, or there's less love to go around.

You know what, God willing, you will know this one day after you have your first child. You really do think, I can't, I'm not gonna love the next one as much.

Really?

Oh, every parent thinks that. It's inconceivable to them. 'Cause how could you think I'm gonna love the unknown as much as the known? And then—

And then you do.

Yes, and the fourth and the eighth, depending on how many you have. Obviously I have two, but it's exactly what happened.

So I'd like to tell the audience a story about Dr. Marmor, who is Dennis's friend and my psychiatrist, which I feel comfortable sharing 'cause we talk about him so much. I think everyone should have a psychiatrist if they need one.

So, well, everyone should have a good one.

A good one, of course. So I— Dr. Marmor, it's so funny, we spent our appointments, um, talking about the Torah. We do, um, and it's, it's wonderful. But anyway, I first sought Dr. Marmor out— this is really— you, you all are getting to know me— 2 or 3 years ago. God, it must have been almost 3 years ago when I first went on to Dennis's show. The whole background is I emailed Dennis, he invited— he very graciously invited me to sit in and listen to an hour of his show. He invited me onto his show with the stipulation that— with the warning, I should say, that if I did so, it would have some consequences for me. I did go on his show. The video went on YouTube, and a lot of people in my life saw it and gave me a hard time. I lost friends. It was very painful. I'm not kidding. I thought I ruined my life. No one— I thought, people are going to Google me. They're going to see this video. They're never going to hire me. They're never going to date me. They're never going to be friends with me. Awful. Sought out this psychiatrist at a recommendation of a friend, Dr. Marmor. I had no idea that he was friends with Dennis Prager. No idea. That's not why I sought him out. It was a recommendation. I'm meeting with him. This is during COVID so we're on the phone. And I say that because I wish I could have seen his face. And I was, I was like truly in a hole, depressed. And I start talking to him and I go, Dr. Marmor, I know you don't know me and I don't know you. I have no idea what your politics are. But I just, you know, I've recently realized that I'm inherently a conservative and I went on this guy Dennis Prager's show and I said, I don't agree with everything he says, but I think he's really wise and smart. He on the other end of the phone must have been like, OMG, because they are best friends. They do the tour.

30 years.

30 years. They do the Minion together. And I just said, I just ask you to put your, because he's an LA doc, I'm figuring he's super liberal and wants to like prescribe me some bad pills in revenge for my conservatism. Turns out he's— well, I shouldn't say that, but he's—

he is open.

He's open. Um, and, uh, he— anyway, he doesn't acknowledge that you guys are friends, which, by the way, was brilliant, right? It was totally brilliant. Very professional, because it would have made me feel bad.

He never mentioned to me that you were a patient.

No, he's— he's very, very professional. Um, Anyway, it was just so funny because the whole time I'm like talking to him on the phone about how my life is ruined by going on your show and how I'm sorting through my conservative feelings.

No, I tell you, I tell your story all the time. And your words were when I had you on like 6 months later. So, Julie, what happened? Was I right? I predicted that bad things would happen to you and I warned you. I didn't, I didn't want to pressure you in any way.

You didn't.

And I didn't. I, I was very, very neutral. So you said, I went into— I had 2 weeks of hell. Do you remember saying that?

I do.

And then I said, what happened after that? And you said, I then went to heaven.

It's true. It was such a turn.

And you've still been in heaven?

Oh, of course.

Yes.

It's been the best thing that ever happened to me. But I'll, I'll say that the end of the story is that This is the real kicker. 2 days after I met with Dr. Marmor, do you know this part? I get these text messages from PragerU when a new 5-minute video comes out. I am— I will never forget this moment. I am sitting on my phone. I get a text message from PragerU. New 5-minute video out. Psychiatrist Dr. Stephen Marmor talks about the importance of growing up. I, I almost dropped my phone.

Of course.

And so then I go on to PragerU. I'm like, That's Dr. Mark. That's who I was just telling. And then all of it kind of— and then I Google and there are photos of you, and I'm like, I don't know whether to be angry or thrilled. But anyway, that's—

yeah, that was the blow to your mind. Oh, the timing. That is—

that's God. See, what did I tell you the other day? I had an imaginary friend growing up named Dennis when I was 5, and then this Dennis comes into my life. God has these ways of sprinkling humor. Well, Sean said God creates coincidence, and I think that timing was so divine that two days later—

God created Sean.

Well, that's, that's debatable.

It takes a divine being to construct Sean. I just thought I'd throw that out.

Back to Elizabeth. She's wonderful. We're very blessed of incredible viewers.

I, I'm sure you will meet one day, and I look forward to it. I, I know you do. Well, I'm just happy that what is happening gradually is young women are seeing in you a model. And I've always asked this question, it's a totally serious question. We all know how badly boys need male models. Models. Otherwise, they don't know how— they literally don't know how to grow up. Girls, I don't think, need a female model as much, but they need female models. It's not the same depth of need. They're not going to necessarily go wild, but, uh, they— girls need both. The girls need a male model and a female model. Boys need a male model particularly. But having said that, I just tell you, and you know this to be true, my wife Sue, whom you know is quite special in many ways— yes, in many ways— she, she was a single mom and she did a phenomenal job. So that That is also a factor. It is, I don't wanna get into it, but it's an interesting question. Is one terrific parent enough to undo the damage of one bad parent? I don't have an answer, but it is an interesting question.

That's an Ultimate Issues Hour question.

Yeah.

Gosh, I have to tell you, your radio show is so unbelievable. I really, I mean, I've always had a sense of it, but when I guest hosted for you a few weeks ago, I did my third hour, as I always do when I guest host for Dennis, and I'm guest hosting for him in the next few weeks, so look out for that. Anyway, I did a history hour on Iran, the history dating back to Mosaddegh, bringing the Shah back, the 1979 revolution, just trying to understand how Iran got to the place that it is today, and we see every day in the news that it's a nightmare. Sean remembers this, I'm sure. After the first segment, you know, I open the show, I give the background, I say, you know, doing this history hour on Iran, please call into the show, 1-800-PRAGER-7, 776. We turn off the mic, Sean comes in, and we both think we're gonna get no callers. None. We were so dead wrong. We got— not only did we get so many callers, there were Iranian Americans, there were people from, from not in Iran, but, but in the Middle East and in Europe who are Iranians who fled Iran calling. I was— I couldn't believe the reach. I could not believe it. And now that I'm guest hosting the next few weeks, every time I guest host, with my history hours, because I used to do them basically on American history. I'm going to do international history because what you have in your audience is so unbelievable. I want all of these people to call in anyway.

Well, now you know why I constantly refer to and speak about my talk show. It is my laboratory of life because of all the people I talk with. Not to— that's a separate issue.

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You know my theory, right? I, that I've spoken with more people than any living human being. I think that is true, cuz I don't know who else has 40 years of talk radio. A lot of people have talked, not a lot, but a fair number have talked to more people.

True. But not with, but your call-ins, right?

I, I, no, I have, it's with. That's unique to talk radio. And so I know what you say is true. If I were to talk about Armenia and Turkey, Armenians would call in. Even some Turks would call in. And I love when they do. I learn from these people.

I learned so much in that hour. And I have to tell you, I'm so annoyed. And just in the slight chance that he's listening, there was actually a man named Shah himself who called in, an Iranian-American and he was so smart. And so, I mean, the stuff that he told me—

I think Iranians are particularly intelligent.

If he's listening, Shah, please email me.

Yes, do that.

I hate that I didn't get his contact information.

What the ayatollahs have done to Iran— that country could be one of the most significant forces of good and influence in the world with the The raw brain power of that and culture power of that society, and these Islamists— I don't mean all Muslims, but these Islamists— so ruined a great place. And the brain drain— do you know how successful Iranian immigrants are all over the world? And they did, they did another thing, the ayatollahs. They created the, the largest number of atheists in any one generation, I suspect, in history. Young Iranians look at the Islam that they have been given. It's awful. It's evil. It's backward. It is intolerant. It is sick. It's just sick. I mean, just look at the Salman Rushdie fatwa. And they say, oh, there's no God. Which is an understandable reaction. I had that with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, one of the greatest human beings I think alive. This woman is a true, true giant. She's brilliant and powerful and moral and cultured and everything.

And you had Masih Alinejad on the show too, another Iranian female who's a terrorist. That's right. Oh, you're totally right. Yes.

But I just wanted to say about Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I've not not only had on the show, I had at a PragerU event. She's an atheist. And why? Because she grew up in Somalia and saw and had the horrible thing done to her that they do to girls. I mean, it's— by the way, she's married and I believe happily so to a great man, one of the greatest. You like history, you gotta read Niall Ferguson. Are you familiar with him?

I'm not.

N-I-A-L-L, spelled the English way. Neal Ferguson. He's a first-class historian.

Have you met Iraqis? I'm sure you've met them, but have you met many Iraqis? Because I haven't. I haven't met many Iraqi Americans. And I was reading last night about, about the Iraq War and the sectarian conflict that emerged, and I didn't realize that al-Qaeda came in after the Americans toppled Saddam. I knew that there was Sunni and Shia sectarian conflict, but al-Qaeda came into the country and wreaked a lot of havoc. And I just, I Reading about it really—

you know what Iraqi I had on my show?

Yeah, who?

Miss Iraq.

Oh, I know why. It's very interesting. You know why they canceled the thing?

No, it's— no, they— no, they did. It's a very interesting story. A few years ago, Miss Iraq took a selfie with Miss Israel.

Oh yes, yes, yes, yes.

She had to flee Iraq. Her whole family was threatened with death. Death because she took a photo with Miss Israel.

What was she like?

Oh, she was classy. I mean, she, she believes in goodness.

I know this, this sounds corny, but I am just at the point in my life, and I, I hope and think that it will be this way for the rest of my life. I want to like grab the world and learn about all of it. Like, I'm— I am—

yes, that's how I feel.

I'm like I felt, yep. Every, it's almost sometimes painful for me.

And you can do it. You can do it.

I know I can. And I'm, I, I'm so lucky, but I sort of like my quest again, I know it sounds so corny. My quest to learn is so deep that I like, if I'm not learning at one moment, I'm thinking about all the rich things I could be learning about. And I, and then if I'm reading about Iraq, then I start wanting to read Bernard Shaw's book on Islam. And then I switch to that. And then I, so like, I'm just constantly, moving about different things because I'm like, I want to satiate my desire.

Bernard Shaw?

Oh, sorry, Bernard Lewis. Yes, his book on Islam.

Bernard Shaw is the English writer.

I'm aware. I'm sorry, I actually stole that Islam book from his—

Yeah, yeah, no, no, he— I was on a program with him some years ago. The man was in his mid-90s and gave a speech.

Wow.

He was—

May that be you.

That's correct. That's right. That would be my dream. That is exactly right. It is doable. Let's put it that way. It takes luck and attitude, both.

But I just, I think about people who spend their lives scrolling on Instagram or—

It's painful.

I mean, it's like—

I know.

And by the way, I scroll Instagram too. I'm not, you know, wagging my finger.

The issue is how much.

The world is so interesting.

Yes, exactly.

And I don't think people who do that realize how interesting it is. And literally just go to a bookstore. My favorite thing is to go to a bookstore, just browse, pick out a great history book, and your world is just opened. You've got a slice of how interesting life is.

The book, the institution of the book is one of the great gifts in the world. When I think of how much this person worked, worked so that I can digest in a few hours this massive amount of information and insight. I'm so grateful to them. And as you would know, I do know that's exactly right. Well, you know my motto, and this I do, I think, pretty well: I work hard so that the reader doesn't.

I know you said it to me.

Yeah, the first time we ever met, the hardest part of my writing is to make it easily accessible. Because I write on, you know, heavy, heavy-duty stuff. Talking about heavy-duty stuff, so you attended my Ask a Jew, Ask a Gentile event, which I do around the country for the last— I have done it for years. And this time it was— it should be called, by the way, I don't know why they do Ask a Jew, Ask a Gentile, not Ask a Jew, Ask a Christian.

Christian, but it rings better, Jew and Gentile.

Yeah, maybe so. Okay, that was not a big deal. I'm just saying though, it's always a committed Christian that I'm in dialogue with, and this time it was Eric Metaxas, who is truly a significant thinker and writer and gutsy. It's what I like about him. So what did you think of the evening? Because you had already read Metaxas' biography of Luther.

Of Luther. I loved it. Remember when I walked— I walked into the green room before they went on, and you were sitting with Eric and your family members and friends, and you all were talking, and I just saw him, and I just walked up to him, and I was like, I love you, I love your book. And then I realized, oh God, why did I say that?

That was— I think he was happy to hear it.

Yes, it was just— it was a little awkward. He probably didn't think so. I'm just being self-conscious. Anyway, the reason why I pull out my phone is because I took notes throughout the entire speech. I didn't I didn't bring my notebook.

I mean, not speech.

Sorry, dialogue. Dialogue. Well, first of all, just, this was a really big moment of the night. I think you would agree when Eric talked about faith and works in Christianity, because that's something that we discuss on the show a lot that historically or sort of traditionally people understand Christianity to be faith-based. Indeed, Christians understand Christianity to be primarily faith-based. If you believe in Christ and in God, you'll go to heaven. If you don't, you will go elsewhere. I thought Eric clarified the point very well where he said that faith— well, he quoted the James verse where he said faith without works is dead, and he said you know your faith by your works. That's what indicates—

That's right.

But I guess my follow-up question for him, and I'd like to ask you, is my convenient spokesperson, at least for right now, of Christianity. So let's say—

which is ironic given that, right, of course it is, but I, I can be—

but that was a theme of, of the night too, that you're so trusted and loved by Christians and you understand Christianity so much and you don't have a theological axe to grind with that, that you can, at least in terms of this conversation, serve as a spokesperson. Anyway, my question for Eric and for you is, I understand his argument that the works reveal the faith, but let's say you have someone who is very, you know, who does good works, but then if you ask them if they believe in Christ, they kind of go, "I don't know." They're a church-going Christian, but they can't fully buy that Christ was resurrected, for instance. Would that person be considered a Christian? Because by all other marks, they fit the Christian category, but they can't go all the way with that one belief. How do you think he'd respond?

So I'm thinking, because I want to do complete justice obviously to Christians, I think you have to affirm the Nicene Creed in order to be considered Christian in normative churches. I think that would be Catholic and Protestant, and basically that there is the God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I do— it's an interesting question I never thought to ask. Does any other belief— is there any other belief necessitated for you to be considered a Christian, because Christian is defined by beliefs. Judaism is defined by beliefs and also birth. This is a huge difference between the two groups, and I'm just making that clear.

And primarily works.

No, no, no, but whether you are a Jew.

Oh, I see.

Okay. You could be a bad Jew, but you're still a Jew. So It's an interesting question. Do— does a person— if a person says, I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but, uh, you know what, I just can't wrap my head around the resurrection, is that person considered by, by Christians, by Christian theologians, a Christian? I can't answer on their behalf. Uh, it is, is In other words, in effect, the question is, is the resurrection as central as the Trinity? Well, I can only say I've never met anybody who believed in the Trinity but not the resurrection. It's an interesting theoretical— I don't know if, if it actually happens.

Yeah, it's just interesting to contemplate where the line gets drawn, because when Eric says, you know, your works sort of reveal your faith, your works certainly reveal if you take Jesus Jesus and his values, or God and his values seriously, but that does not necessarily reveal whether you believe in the divinity of Christ. And, you know, I mean, obviously the crucifixion historically happened.

By your works is your faith is known is meant, I believe, to say as follows: you can say you believe in Christ till the cows come home, but if you don't act in a Christ-like manner, which doesn't mean perfect, But if you act, let's say if you do evil, right, it doesn't matter. It means you're fooling us and you're fooling yourself that you really believe as a Christian. That's what I— that's what that statement of Metaxas and of James, I think, means. Don't fool yourself. It's like that. I mean, to a certain extent, it's like the guy who 'Oh, I love my, my wife/girlfriend, and I periodically beat her.' So I think it's fair for one to say you may think you love her, but your beating her seems to invalidate that sentiment, right?

That what you just said reminded me of a great point that you made in, in the discussion where you said it doesn't matter what Jews believe or what Christians believe. The question is, what does Judaism hold, or what does Christianity hold? I thought that was really, really important.

Oh, I'm glad. Well, you, you always pick up on, on the really important stuff. Yeah, that's— look, that's why I know this is a Jew. People say, so Dennis, what do Jews believe about the afterlife? And my answer is, it's irrelevant. The question is, what does Judaism believe about the afterlife? It's, it's like you might as well say, what do Jews believe about It's not the Sabbath. Most Jews don't observe the Sabbath. So who cares? I mean, it's sad, but it doesn't reflect on whether Judaism believes in the Sabbath. It's one of the— it's the fourth commandment of the Ten Commandments.

Your argument about the Sabbath was so good too, where you said you're only following 9 of the Ten Commandments. Oh, when I said it to the 1,000 Christians who were present? Yes.

Well, that is an interesting— I've only asked it— I never ask to win an argument. I have no interest in winning theological arguments. Arguments, because theology is a set of beliefs. I never argue beliefs anyway. I argue values and a whole host, but I don't argue beliefs anyway. This is a case of— what was the point you just made? Because I was—

when I was just thinking about the 9, you're only serving 9 of the 10. And you say you don't— it doesn't matter to win an argument to you.

That's right. Well, it was— darn, it rarely happens, but it happens.

You know what? There's a Dennis and Julie bingo that Zach and Sean and Rick made.

And what is it?

And oh, it's so funny. It totally ribs us. And one of them is Julie forgets what she's going to say. I'm very happy with this moment right now, Dennis, because maybe we have to add one Dennis forgets.

That's right. Which is, I think No, it doesn't happen. Rarely happens.

It shows how relaxed we are.

Well, yes. Also, by the way, I have a whole theory on that, like I do on most things.

Shocking.

Yes. You know what I do not to lose my place? This is hilarious.

Oh, it's so great.

You ought to put this up on your thing.

I did, I did.

That is very— Dennis hits the mic. O-57. Dennis Prager.

It also says, um, uh, Julie talks about Harvard kind of hurt, I gotta say.

Oh, that is so unfair.

Oh, you're making me out to be like, I went to Harvard.

It is not true.

Thank you.

I'm looking at Sean, who should, you know—

I don't talk about it that much. It's when Dennis Prager brings it up.

That you are sinning during Lent, even though you're a lapsed Catholic, it should mean something to you. And where were your ashes yesterday?

One of them is they complement each other.

Okay, I don't care about that. I can live with that.

The left is destroying blank. The left destroys everything. Let's just be honest.

It does, yes. So here is what I was going to say on the issue of not forgetting where I was. I always go off on tangents in speeches, on the radio show, and with us because it's interesting and relevant. The tangent is not completely unrelated. So how do I know where to go back? Do you know what I do? And you should do this. I actually say a word in my mind so that I remember the subject that I went off from on the tangent.

I do that too, actually.

And if you don't do it, it's extremely hard to remember.

Sometimes I just write down the word.

Okay, yeah, but during a speech it's harder. Or— you're right, it's worth doing. Anyway, so the evening was this dialogue, and you raised this issue The Sabbath issue for Christians has always intrigued me. When I started having serious dialogues with Christians, which I did for 10 years on the radio each week, I realized they were completely conflicted on the Sabbath commandment. This is not an attack, it's not a criticism, It's a lament because if you don't have the Sabbath in your life, it's poorer.

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No, the conflict was, am I as a Christian commanded by the Ten Commandments to keep the Sabbath? And, and it's 50/50, the results that I get.

So I have a question for you, something that you brought up during the discussion that I'm embarrassed that I don't know. You were talking about, and I think it was with regard to this very point, the Sabbath. What commandments or what laws in the Old Testament, as the Christians—

well, really the Torah, because there were no laws after the Torah, the first 5 books, yeah—

which Christians are obligated to follow? And you said something along the lines of Jesus fulfilled some, or which ones Jesus didn't fulfill according to the Christian worldview. So, again, I'm embarrassed that I don't know this, but why do Christians believe that they are not obligated to some of the ritual laws, for instance? Or parts of the Ten Commandments? Well, all right, so you're asking me—

this is where we really need a Christian. It's not fair for Christians that I am— I try to defend, I defend Christians my whole life, in fact, because if Christianity dies, the West dies. Which is what is happening. But there are times where I will admit I just can't provide as eloquent a defense as a Christian might because I don't understand the basic, basic Christian concept. I've never actually said this. I should say it at one of these dialogues, actually. Actually, because I feel totally free to say anything, which is a credit to the Christians that they, you know, 1,000 Christians come to hear a Jew say what he thinks about Christianity. There's no other religion that would do that. It is so, uh, I don't think anyway. Uh, so when Christians say Jesus fulfilled the law Have you heard that? You've never heard that statement?

Honestly, no, until you said it the other night.

Well, or you mentioned that they believe that Christians say that. So I have heard this for literally, uh, 50 years, since I was very young, and I didn't understand it 50 years ago, and I don't understand it today. There is a notion in Christianity, and this is where I wish we did have a Christian present. There's a notion in Christianity that because the law cannot be perfectly fulfilled, we need a savior. We mean presumably anybody.

Well, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but why can it not be perfectly fulfilled?

Well, no law can be perfectly fulfilled. It's not— the human being is not capable.

So how does the Savior do that?

Because that, that's the point. So I mean, I hope I'm not misconstruing Christian thought, but write to us, please write to us. Right, but I, but I just say, I— it's not like I heard this once. I've heard this for half a century, so I think I'm getting it right. That because— because this is Paul's notion Because it's in the New Testament. Paul says because the law is a curse and Jesus is in effect a blessing, and it's a curse because no one can fulfill it, and therefore you are doomed, as it were, by your non-fulfillment. Anyway, I don't want to get into the weeds here. I can. I know what he was referring to. There is no concept in the Torah, in the Old Testament, in Judaism, that if you can't fulfill all the laws, you go to hell. There is no— it would— I think it makes God look foolish. I'm giving you laws, I know you can't fulfill them, and I'm gonna punish you for not fulfilling them. And then I'll send a Savior so that you are bailed out because I knew you couldn't fulfill them. The purpose of the law is not to curse the individual, obviously, and God doesn't believe we can do it perfectly. That's why there— if you drop one or you're mistaken, you bring an atonement sacrifice, and if you couldn't do it with an animal, then you brought it with grain. I mean, does anybody fulfill any set of laws perfectly? Does anybody drive perfectly? It's easier to drive perfectly than it is to live ethically perfectly. The purpose of the law is to make you a better person and to bring you closer to God. And, and, and, and that's, that's the, that's the whole purpose. Anyway, why did you raise this? Because it was raised on— in the—

yes, it was, it was something that, that I was contemplating and was a bit confused about. But, um, I, I'd like to raise something else. Just again, I'm just talking about my impression.

By the way, people will be able to watch the evening.

I, I'm sure it's going to go up on the internet. Yes, it was filmed.

Yeah.

So, okay. Something else, and I know that, that you say this too, but I— it's such a good point, one that we need to remind ourselves about often. Eric Metaxas said during this, this talk, he said evil is hatred of God.

That's right.

He said people doing evil in our country right now, they are at war with God's reality. They want to deconstruct and destroy God's reality, male and female, good and evil. He mentioned marriage. And then he also said a few seconds later, he said they want to get a god. I thought those were two excellent points. Not only is it a hatred of this God and his reality, but also in it, and this is, you know, Dennis Prager, one of Dennis Prager's big points is that no one is No one is without religion. No, it's not that if you believe in— in don't believe in God, you believe in nothing. You believe in anything. And I think they're— they are looking to believe in something. They're looking for their own god while trying to construct this.

The irony is they are their god, right? They have found him. It is they—

their rabid commitment to their stupid ideology.

Well, well, if you, if you say that it doesn't matter if you're a boy or a girl and you are born one, that they have reduced it to assigned, the sex you're assigned at birth, that's, that's like that the number of fingers you were assigned at birth. You weren't assigned a number of fingers. You were born with a number of— you're born a boy or you're born a girl, right? The one out of millions— I don't know, one out of 10 million— what I think is called hermaphrodite, where there, there are ambiguous genitalia. I mean, it doesn't prove anything. There are people who were born who are not capable of seeing But blindness is not normal.

Yes, yes. Oh gosh, now I'm forgetting what I was going to say. Congratulations to someone at home who's playing the bingo. Hey, that's one on the bingo, you need five or something like that. Oh gosh, what, what was it? Oh yes, I remember. See, does it count if I remember?

Yes, it does. So you drop it.

And by the way, I remember because I used— I put a word in my head. Said, so that as I'm getting off on this tangent, I don't— it's good.

You did do that.

I just did right now. The word is inversion.

Yes.

I'll tell you.

It works.

Yes. What's so eerily fascinating about leftism is that it really is a direct inversion of God's values. Like, it really is so stark the way that they are rebelling against a Judeo-Christian God. I mean, everything, even if you just look at the few chapters of Genesis when you talk about the distinctions that what God does when he's creating the world, the first thing he does is he makes distinctions between light and dark, between land and sea, between male and female, between holy and profane, between man and animal, between clothed and unclothed, the list goes on. And what they are trying to do in each of those situations, I mean, not land and sea, but if they could, they might, because they would say that it's terribly bigoted for land to be land and not sea. My point is, it's just, it's so stark the way that the left left directly retaliates against each of God's principles. I mean, it's like a direct negative photographic image.

I want to write a book. Judeo-Christian values versus leftist values.

It's opposite.

They're opposite. Oh, it is. It's exactly correct.

And it shows that leftists, that's really at the heart of their—

It is the heart of everything.

Of their problem, because it would be similar to if I were a doctor, Marva, or if I were a therapist and someone came into my office and was sitting across from me and was, you know, had really like straggly hair and, and was wearing bad clothes and was smoking a cigarette, whatever. And then that person's mother came in and was perfectly dressed and put together. And I would speculate that that child was rebelling against the mother because it's so— it's such an inversion. That is exactly what's going on here.

That's a brilliant analogy.

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That was excellent.

Oh, thank you. See, as I— shows me, as I was saying it, I thought, God, this is so bad. He's gonna think this is so bad.

I thought it was superb.

Thank you.

That is—

wow. I mean, yes, I'm thrilled.

You have given me a way, because I always think in terms of analogies, and I always think in terms of, uh, of physical. For example, how do I— how have I all my life explained humans are created in God's image and animals are not? If your dog and a stranger were drowning, which would you save first? It's so real, and that, that it makes the point. Your point was superb. This guy is totally disheveled, stinks.

Yeah.

Uh, uh, is foul-mouthed, and, and his perfectly, uh, uh clean, ordered, clean, distinguished, classy mother shows up, or father.

Yeah.

And it's so obvious that is exactly what the left is. It is a rebellion against their orderly father.

It's exactly what it is. If you look, I mean, again, one of the guideposts of Judeo-Christian, of the Judeo-Christian worldview is the distinction between male male and female.

That's right.

And they're totally rebelling against that, you know, holy and profane. They do that every day.

And ironically, the only distinctions that they emphasize are completely the opposite of Judeo-Christian.

Yes.

God doesn't give a damn about your color.

Yes, it's true. What you write in the Torah commentary is God is ethic-centric, not ethnic-centric. The left is the exact inversion.

That's right.

They're ethnic-centric. They, they If someone does commit an act, we Judeo-Christian conservative abiding people can tell you who was right and who was wrong based on the act. The leftists will tell you who is right and who is wrong based on the race of the people who committed the act.

That's right. That's right. They ask who, not what.

Yep. I'm seeing if I have one more point to bring up from this. There were so many great ones.

Yeah. We'll announce it when, Sean, do you have any idea when the Metaxas-Prager thing goes up? Sometime next week.

Cool. Just also very interesting too, Eric said that— or maybe it was you who said it— that in the Book of Revelation— yeah, which by the way I know is Revelation instead of Revelations, correct? Even though there are multiple. What the thing that casts you into the fiery lake excuse me— is cowardice. That's one of the things.

That was a great point.

I love that point.

So you will love this. I came up with a talk and something I just wrote for Larry Elder's upcoming book because he's running for president and he asked me to write something for it. So I devoted an entire hour of my radio show to this brand new theory of mine, the 4 characteristics of a great person.

Oh, I am so eager to hear.

I have no doubt you are. Oh gosh, so, so thinking of mine, I— yes, you know what, I'm not going to tell you.

Next, next, next week.

Yes, let's talk about it. And wait, here's even better. Should everyone aspire to being great?

Well, you said— I actually was thinking about that before the show because you were doing an ad read for your radio show, and the ad read started off where you said there are people who fight and there are people who support those who fight, right? It's not an exact, you know, parallel to this point, but, but I— do you see why I'm bringing up that?

Yes, but of course people supporting the fighters is a good thing, right?

But being So not everyone can be great.

No, every— no, that's it. I appreciate my mind.

Strive to be great. Is that what you're asking?

Everyone can be great. Not everyone can do macro great things, right? That you have to be in a macro position to do macro great things.

So it's like the fighter supporter point. You need people who are doing macro great things.

No, it isn't exactly, because The supporter is doing great things. So I would, I would leave that aside. I understand, you're right to a certain extent. I really want people to think though over the, over the next week is because your answer would have been mine until I thought this through. I think everyone should aspire to greatness. And when I give the form characteristics of great, you will realize they are accessible to everyone.

I agree with you that everyone should aspire to be great. I think maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.

Right, but not everybody can be because they can't— okay, being great and doing large great things are not the same thing.

True.

Well, it accords with my wonderful, if I have to say so, And it's not even fully original to me, so I don't mean wonderful that I came up with it. But I've said for years, and it's really important for people to know, the famous are rarely significant and the significant are rarely famous. See, let us say— let me put it to you in very personal terms in your life. Your sister who was quite severely autistic. Your sister has not had particularly good help. But let us say you found someone who devoted a good chunk of their life to making your sister laugh, comfortable, secure. Would you deny that this person was great?

By the way, we do have a person. Her name's Diane. She listens. I want to give her a shout out because she's a godsend. But, um, Would I deny that that person is great? I think I'd be insane to deny that that person is great.

Okay, so that's my point. You don't have to do great things like Winston Churchill to be great, right?

But I view that— I view that as a macro great thing, which Churchill or the—

oh no, no, what, what Diane has done is micro. It's not macro.

It's done to one individual, right?

Yes. Absolutely.

In my life it's a macro, but I hear that it's—

Absolutely greatness is available to everyone. It's amazing how these things develop. So do you know, we'll end with this because I'm so excited as you are, which is one of the many reasons I love you. And it is how it happens. And so Larry Elder asked me to write a piece for his book about his running for president. And I'm the one who brought Larry to public life, and it's one of the greatest things I ever did in this country. And we're very close and have been for decades. So of course I said, yes, I'll write this for you. But I never, ever, ever write pablum. It is like a sin, a big sin. If I am going to write something, even just 700 words, they have to be meaningful, or I've wasted my time and the reader's time. And so I thought, what can I write for Larry? Well, I think Larry is a great man. I really do. And then I thought, well, why is he great? And then, and that's how it happened. I came up with 4 characteristics. I spoke about it the same day I wrote this piece for Larry, just this past week, at a PragerU donor board meeting. And I saw these really highly competent and successful and good people taking notes. Because if you say to somebody— there are two big questions here. This is like a trailer for next week. Isn't that funny? Because we never did this before. But it's so important. A, should everyone aspire to greatness? My answer is yes. And B, what does it mean? So I want you to come up by next week with four, or if it's five, fine, three, fine, I don't care. Of characteristics of what it means to be great. And I have, I have my 4.

Deal. And the audience should do it too.

And you should. That's exactly right. But first, answer the question. The, the fact that you had your response is my, my worry. People think greatness is only available if you're in a very high, powerful position. In media or in politics, but it's not true. Greatness is available. So I asked— here's a beauty, I get the chills, this is so powerful to me— ask yourself, I'm saying this to those listening to us, do you know anyone in your life that you would say is a great person? By the way, if you don't, it's very sad. But if you do—

not uncommon, probably.

Unfortunately, I don't know. That's an— I need to do this on the radio. This is where I— that's why I call my radio show— that's a perfect—

that's why I brought up the Iran thing, because you can just get so many callers who have a—

by the way, the way you sit in for me, uh, in the not too distant future, You should always feel free if you hear a point we raise on this, or, or I just raised on my show, and say, I want to give you Julie's take on Dennis's thing about great people. He made me—

it's a great idea.

Yes, he made me think, and I'd like your feedback.

I'm just sitting here thinking how lucky I am that I'm 23 years old and I get to basically do these seminars on life and character.

Oh, you're very lucky.

Including the one next week. So that I get to think about this and talk about it with all of you, that's really—

it is. You're 100% right. I never, I never stop pinching myself over my luck in having had this. At the same time, it, it, you're very lucky, there's no question, but you, you have, you have earned it. Now there are people who earn it and they're not that lucky. They're— they get a disease or they're hit by a truck or they, they don't meet the right people. I mean, a million things. That's another great subject. Did we ever do luck, Sean?

I know I'm the human recording device.

Yes, you are the human.

I don't think we've ever spent a long time talking about it. I think offhandedly we have.

Disturbs people a great deal. Feel when I— religious people, they think I am denying God's power when I say that there is a lot of luck in life. Yeah, all right, so that's another, another great subject to write down.

Oh my gosh, okay, we do this every week.

How do people—

we do this every week, and I hope it's not annoying to people. I don't— that's just the way my mind works. You know, my tortured little mind.

That is so true.

I know. Okay, uh, again, when I was giving that analogy of the disheveled—

okay, I don't care if we're delaying it, I have one more point to make.

Oh God, I'm sorry, you got to be quick.

So be it.

No, because I'm filming after.

I don't care, I'm very selfish. This— you will love this.

Quickly. Julie at julie-harpman.com. Follow Dennis Julie Pod. That's it, go.

Okay, so you and your mind, and you're always thinking, what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? What did I get wrong? I don't know, what did I look wrong? What did I think wrong? Right?

Yes.

So I was speaking to a board member last night, PragerU, PragerU, and his wife is a surgeon, very talented surgeon. Surgeon. She said, as a general rule, women make better surgeons, and she's no feminist. And I thought, I— if she says it, I take it seriously. And she said, I'll tell you why. When, when a woman does a surgery, all she thinks about is what did she get wrong.

Totally.

Oh, I believe guys do surgery, they think, oh, I did a good job, I'm going golfing Oh, it's true.

Dennis and I, we were talking about—

isn't that interesting?

It's totally— we were— remember we were on the phone and you said something like, uh, we were talking about an idea and you said, oh, when I think of a good idea, I think that was a great idea, Dennis. When I think of a good idea, I think, why didn't I think of it sooner? What don't I know about it? Why am I— why have I been a lazy bum that I haven't written it down and tried to, you know, flesh it out?

All right, how do they reach you?

I already told them, julie@julie-hartman.com and @dennisjuliepod on Instagram and Twitter.

Bless you.

Bless me? Oh, thank you. I thought I sneezed.

You're saying no, you didn't sneeze.

Bless you too, Dennis. Bless all of you.

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