Dennis & Julie: Hate Speech IS Free Speech

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I so identify this music with us. Dennis Prager here with Julie Hartman. Dennis and Julie, what episode are you? You know what, 72. '72. You know, it's so funny. Everything we do is spontaneous on Dennis Prager.

Everything. We have no idea what we're going to talk about today.

It's really amazing. And it gets deep. I mean, this is not superficial stuff. But I do want to say something immediately. Nothing— I don't think anything evokes instantaneous emotion like music. Music is unique in human expression. The second that comes on, I get into a good mood. I mean, thank God I'm usually in a good mood, as you know, but nevertheless, you know what I mean. And the ability of music to do that, uh, utterly independent obviously of Dennis and Julie, because I'm a It's, it's sort of my drug music. I, you know, I think music is an argument for God's existence. You know that?

Oh, absolutely. Yes. What music does is it, among other things, makes you feel and process emotions that you didn't even realize that you have. For instance, there are some songs I listen to and it makes me think of wanting to get married, and I'm not I mean, certainly that's a priority in my life, but I can't say it's something I think about all the time.

By the way, I just want the record, I hear Beethoven's 7th and I think of Julie getting married. It doesn't matter what music comes on, I'm thinking of you getting married. Go ahead.

Oh, we know.

Yes, exactly.

And I appreciate it. Right. But there will be certain songs that'll come on and I'll picture getting married or I'll picture having a family. And that's, it only really, well, I can't say it only really happens, but it comes up when I hear those. Those lines. Or I'll hear a song and I'll think about this random memory from my childhood. Isn't that amazing that music can do that?

I wonder what's more powerful in that regard, music or smell, because smells are very powerful. You're right, they're rare. Music is much more ubiquitous than smells, but a specific smell that you identify with a moment in life, bad or good, right? It, it really goes deep.

Well, there's music too. Some songs that I played either in a happy or not so happy time in my life, and when that song comes on, I immediately— yes, I go right back to what I was feeling.

That's right. Now, so let me just say why I think it's an argument for God's existence. So, so often I have read And I don't have great respect for the general trend that everything is explainable by evolution. I think it's a stretch. But they admit they can't figure out an evolutionary explanation for music. It doesn't seem to play any role in the necessity of procreation, the survival of the species.

I wonder how—

it's just a gift.

I wonder how staunch scientists, i.e., those who don't allow for the existence of religion or God's hand in anything, I wonder how they would consider or explain music.

Well, they don't. I think that that's—

how do you think they would answer if the question were presented?

That they, as they do with everything, one day science will explain it, right?

But that's a kind— but, but that's a kind of faith. That's what they don't realize. Having faith that science will explain is the same thing of having faith that God or religion will explain something. That's right.

Yes. Well, they call us— they call us believers. You ever hear this? God of the gaps. You ever hear that phrase?

No.

Yeah, that's a very big common put-down. Where there is a gap in human understanding God fills it. And they don't, but as if they don't have science of the gaps. Science will fill it. Really? You know that science will one day explain how we got from inorganic to organic? Maybe not. That, you're right, that is a complete leap of faith.

Well, as you very brilliantly write in your commentary, science doesn't explain how life emerged from non-life. I think that's what you're just saying, right? Inorganic from inorganic. It's so true. Like, we can understand maybe how humans evolved from earlier, more primitive creatures, but why don't we ever consider the question, well, how did even a creature get on the Earth in the first place? Seriously, do they just think it popped up? What's their answer? I don't know.

They don't have an answer to a lot of, or any of the biggest. How did anything come from nothing? No answer. How did, uh, life come from non-life? No answer. How did consciousness come from no consciousness? No answer. And it doesn't bother them.

That's right.

The biggest questions of all, and oh, it doesn't matter. The thought that there might actually be a creator, it— that's the unacceptable possibility.

Guess. Well, you ended our last episode, which by the way, I will even say, and you know I'm very hard on myself, I will even say that was a magnificent—

No, let me say you are not hard on yourself. You, you remind me about yourself like the, uh, Shiite self-flagellators who, unless they bleed— it's a certain, uh, Shiite holiday where they actually whip themselves with chains. That's what you do most days.

I think that is the first and only time in my life that I will be compared to a Shiite Muslim.

No, no, to a Shiite self-flagellate. Yes.

Well, okay, so there's this really good book, which by the way, if our viewers have read it, I want you to write into me. It's like Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton. I always ask people to write in about that. It's called The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown. Great book. And in it, he describes this militant Catholic group, which does something called corporal mortification, where they will take a chain and put it around their thigh and tighten, tighten, tighten the chain so that the chain digs into the flesh and then you bleed and maybe even break a limb. And they did it, or do it if that group still exists, in order to become closer to God. It's this idea that you will feel the suffering that Christ felt on the cross. Anyway, when I read that in Dan Brown's book, I underlined it, starred it, and I wrote, "This is what I do, but in my mind." I quote, "I mortificate myself in my mind." Yes, that's what you do. God, I'm probably— people at home are like, "Is she a lunatic?" I'm not.

You're not a lunatic. No, no.

I'm just—

that is your— what's the word? I, I have— I, I don't think you'll know this word. Dybbuk. Have you never heard the word? No. There's a play you'd love it. D-I-D-Y-B-B-U-K or B-U-K. I don't know if it's two B's or one. It's, it's having inside of you, um, a sort of devil that, that, that gnaws at you? That's yours.

If I may for a moment, and I really actually don't mean to make it about myself, I want to say this because I think it may be helpful for other people who are overachievers. I think that my intense self-criticism comes from this upbringing I had, and it was really something that I pushed myself to do where I wanted to get into Harvard. I wanted to be the best, one of the best swimmers in California. And in order to reach that level of accomplishment, and this isn't said as a brag, it's just, it's just true. In order to reach that level of accomplishment, you can't just be good. You can't just be great. You have to be extraordinary in what you do. And so in school, I couldn't just be an A student. I had to be a straight A, you know, near perfect on every exam. That I took in order to, you know, have the academic credentials to get into Harvard. And swimming, when you get to a certain level of speed, it is down to the millisecond that where you are competing with someone. Literally, if you're, my coach used to talk to me about my pinky. If I were coming into the wall to end the race and my pinky was out a little bit, there would be friction in the water and it would slow me down by a millisecond. You have to think about your pinky literally in order to get to a certain level of swimming. And I think that intense self-criticism where every detail had to be flawless has endowed me for better or for worse, and probably in some cases for worse, with this intense great isn't, doesn't cut it. It has to be perfect. So anyone who has that, get rid of it. It's not fun.

That's right. Try to listen to this. So this is a great example when I say to people, because I'm really honest, when I tell people that Dennis and Julie bring stuff out of me that I just— as open as I try to be and am on my regular, you know, solo podcasts and broadcasts, this is a good example. So I don't have that at all.

I know.

And I have accomplished a lot without that. So I'll tell you an interesting thing. I know I've never said this publicly. So at a recent PragerU gala, Jordan Peterson was the guest. And I know you— I think you know this.

I was there.

Oh yeah, that's right. But I don't know if you know this comment that he made to me. So we had a dialogue, which I always love, and afterwards, to his credit, he did what I do, hang around for selfies with people, talk to people. He didn't have to hang around. It said a lot about him that he did. And he walked over to me. We were very close to each other, but he walked over and he said something to this effect. You, you, Dennis, uh, are remarkable in that you are very deep and preoccupied with the, the big issues of life and suffering and evil, and you are so lighthearted. And it was such an interesting observation when intelligent people view you It's such a gift because no one can know themselves in that sense like others know them. And I thought, wow. I didn't think, oh, I'm terrific. I thought, oh, I'm so lucky. I was endowed with this easygoing personality, and yet I'm as intense as he is, as you are.

Right.

And it's so that that quality that you described in yourself, it may not be indispensable to success.

Right, well, I mean, I think it has been a huge contributor to my success, but it's come at a great cost. But what I will say is over time, I have gotten way better at it. I know you probably don't believe me, but compared to how tightly wound I was in high school, I'm way better now. Honestly, Dennis, and I'm not, you know, sorry.

No, I could have, I have, don't finish your sentence, I will. I know I played a role in that.

Yeah, you played a huge role in it.

I have no doubt about it.

Just, just.

And I'm glad.

The power, having a really good example around you in life.

Yes.

People gravely underestimate the power of that. I, and I think the most, this is what I say to people, like I was giving a speech in Washington State and someone raised their hand and asked me the question, which I always get, I'm sure you get it very often. How do we change things? How do we influence young people? And sometimes when people ask that question, I say this with all due respect, it's really hard to answer. Like, I don't, I don't have the answer as to how we, you know, help young people see the light. But what I always, always say is that the most powerful thing that you can give a person isn't necessarily money, isn't necessarily opportunity. It's the power of a good example. So if you wanna change something, do it in your own life. People will notice. And never admit that, that they are being influenced by you. That's what you've done with me. And then the final thing I'll say about this is I think one of the ways that you've helped me with this is through teaching me about the power of the individual and free will. Like, yes, you're— the way you live your life has influenced me, but also your writings about human nature have influenced me. It's a really empowering thing to think that you can work on yourself and better yourself. That's one of the biggest reasons why I'm a conservative, because it's a shame what the left says about, oh, well, you're just a collection of your experience. And if you grew up in a certain neighborhood or if you grew up experiencing something, it's very difficult to overcome. I hate that. And I don't think it's true. You can overcome your circumstances. You can overcome the more malignant parts of your nature if you work on it. And I'm working on it, and I'm over—

well, that's my one of my oldest lines. The difference between religious education— I don't know who is that, who is this the picture of behind Julie?

It's a real show.

Oh yeah, real things happen.

People pop up.

Oh no, I wasn't even critical. I was just curious. It was like, is that a future husband? I mean, I just—

that's where your mind goes.

That's where my mind goes. By the way, I, I can prove that I met a guy.

Oh no.

Yes, in Phoenix, on the train from the rental car place to, to the gate, to, to your— where your gates are, the terminal. And he was a good-looking guy, I would say about 30, and he was a big fan of mine. And we got a picture together. He was originally from the Soviet Union. And my first question to him was, are you married? He's married with 2 or 3 kids.

I just want to tell people that Dennis, at speeches, will say 'Are there any single men in the audience? I have a magnificent young woman.' And then I usually probably look awful, and so I just— I start kind of running out the back to go to the bathroom whenever you do that, because I don't want—

I do that in your presence?

Yes, you did it at your, uh, um, really? Do you not remember the times you've done this? You did it at that speech in the Valley.

In your presence? I know I do it, but I didn't realize you were present.

I do.

Anyway, I want to comment. This is really big, seriously, very big. The model issue.

Okay, the role model.

The role model. Yeah. So I have said on many occasions my, my parents were not particularly affectionate. That's just the way they were. They were affectionate to each other, but, but not, not to to their sons and especially to me, because I, I, I did not bring them reasons for accolades. Let's put it that way. At least at an early age, right?

Yeah. The guy with the 40-year-long radio show did not.

Yeah. Well, no, no. Later. Okay. Later they were big fans. I mean, I have to admit that that's not— that's not the punchline. Is not that. That's the preface. My father didn't hug me. My father didn't say he loved me. My father provided a role model. I— there was no comparison between which is more important for a boy, a father as a role model or a father who was affectionate. That's all. I just want to say that that's what matters. I knew what a man should act like watching my father. What? Okay. Would it have been nicer if he also on occasion was warm and affectionate and fuzzy? Yes. Did I survive it? Yes. I don't know if I would have survived as well had he not provided a role model.

It's interesting to me because you are quite affectionate. Yes, you're, you're quite effusive to everyone in your life who you think highly of.

Certainly my own sons.

Yes.

By the way, I— so that brings me to Prager's Theory number 44932 subsection B, that The— I've all— I believed this in high school. I kept saying to myself, I will make a home that, that does not lack what my home has lacked as a child. I believe that life gives you a second chance at a better parent-child relationship than you had with your parents.

Isn't that cool? And also perhaps a third chance if you're a grandparent.

That's right. That— no, that's absolutely correct. And by the way, I think my parents had that. They were super affectionate to the grandchildren. Wow. So who find it very hard— these are my nieces and nephews. They find it very hard to believe that they weren't affectionate with me.

Did you ever ask them, Dennis, when they were alive? Did you ever say, look, no hard feelings, I know you loved me, but why didn't you ever hug or kiss me or say that you love me?

I never asked them that. I, and I'll tell you why, since they're not around, I could tell you. I was so afraid of hurting their feelings that I don't think I— I think that they lived in, in a sort of make-believe world in that regard, not in general, uh, that I think they thought the home was more idyllic than I did. Let's put it that way. None of the— I want people to understand there isn't a residue of negativity, anger, hurt. If you don't know your parents are human, you will not grow up. Growing up entails many things. One of them is to know your parents are mortals. So you have a choice. Do you emphasize the crappy parts of your upbringing Or do you emphasize the better parts of your upbringing? That, like everything in life, is a choice. Everything in life is a choice. You choose how to regard your own upbringing. And I know, I literally, unfortunately know people who all they remember is the bad and exaggerate how bad it was and have this permanent anger toward their parents. It's very destructive.

This is one of the subjects actually that we wanted to talk about on this show was how easy it is to disappoint many people nowadays, especially children. Or by children, I don't mean like 8-year-olds. I mean children of parents. But before we get to that, I want to make a point about this role models thing that we're discussing. We hear often from the left that representation is important. That's what they said about Kamala Harris. That's what they said about Ketanji Brown Jackson. That's what they say about having transgender individuals, people who look like you, having people who look like you or who are the same sexual orientation. It's important, the left says, to see them on your TV screens. I mean, look, people are going to say, well, of course, Julie, you don't think that's important because you're a white person and you see white people on your TV screens all the time. But that just shows how little wisdom there is on the left. What do you think is more important for a young person, whether they're black or queer or trans? Doesn't matter. What do you think is more important, seeing someone who has their skin color on a TV screen or having someone of any skin color, any gender, any sexuality in their lives who is a good source of morality and, and character. I mean, why don't we ever hear that being discussed? It's, it's asinine. So, so seeing someone on your screen is like going to change your life. Really?

That's the real question. How will it change your life? How?

They've never identified how that changes your life.

Right.

Well, they would say that it, that it, you know, makes you feel like you can—

But a lot of people, a lot of people have it. I have relatives, I won't say who, who are wonderful people, and I remember when Joe Lieberman was running for vice president, Al Gore, he was Al Gore's running mate. And my relatives, all of whom obviously are Jewish, and they, I remember one of them who sometimes voted Republican, sometimes Democrat, So I said, who are you voting for? He goes, Gore. I go, and why? Oh, well, you know, Lieberman is a Jew. It would be great to have a Jewish vice president. And I remember thinking, why?

And you're saying this as a Jew.

Of course. Yes, exactly.

Just to point out.

Yes, though, you're right. And I meant it.

Why?

It's like my old thing about, you know, at my bar mitzvah, I got this book, Great Jews in Sports. And I remember thinking, why? What do I care? And it's not like I'm an alienated Jew. I mean, I've written the most widely used guide in English to Judaism, among other things. Much of my life has been intensely involved in Judaism and with Jews. But I don't understand that notion that I have to see— I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish world, and I remember when I would see— what was it? Was it Dick and Jane? Do you know the early readers? You wouldn't know. See Spot run. Are you familiar with that phrase? See Spot run?

Dennis, I didn't know who the Three Stooges were on your show.

Yes, I know, but see Spot run is better. Even—

I don't know what your reference is.

No, no. Early readers.

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Oh, okay, okay. So anyway, it was, it was, you know, I think Dick and Jane and Spot Was the Dog. I believe that was one of my first readers. But I remember thinking, by 8th grade at least, you know, I haven't seen one figure wearing a yarmulke, which is my whole world growing up as an Orthodox Jew, you know, skullcap. And I remember also thinking, so what? And that was the end of the issue. So what? Let's say I had seen one. Do you realize how low your self-esteem has to be that you gather steam, or if you will, esteem, I should say, gather esteem from seeing somebody who looks like you?

It also reduces that person to their immutable characteristics and not the accomplishments that they have worked hard, whether it's in their character or in their professional lives, to attain. For instance, there was this dance teacher who I had in high school. Dennis, you say that you're bad at skiing and bad at basketball. I am so bad at dance. Comical. I had to dance in front of the entire school, uh, once a semester, and I took the dance as an art requirement for 2 semesters, and people were laughing because I was so bad. They were laughing in like a loving way because they, you know, they knew like I was this athlete and I wasn't good at dance. Anyway, I had this dance teacher who happened to be a Black woman, and she was magnificent. She was the epitome of elegance, and she just— she had that like dance posture and she really kind of used dance as a way to teach us to be elegant. It didn't matter that she was Black. It mattered that she was a good— I never thought of her as like a Black woman who's made an impression on me. I just thought of her as a person. If I thought of her as a Black woman who made an impression on me, again, I would be— it reduces the essence of who she is.

Right. Did I read Tom Sowell because he was Black or because he was brilliant?

Well, another thing I've noticed on the left, and by the way, this isn't just confined to the left, but I think it's more on the left than on the right, is that you have to go big in order to quote unquote make a difference. This is the whole like, oh, we're gonna change children's lives by having a Black vice president. By the way, is she even Black? I don't know, I'm confused about it. I've heard she's South Asian, I've heard she's Black, I don't know.

Yeah, I think it's Black.

Kamala Harris, okay.

But so that is South Asian, right?

So they say, oh, in order to change children's lives, you need Black actors or queer actors. Even if you look at what they say about fight racism, fight climate change, why don't you start with fighting yourself, fighting the things that you may do wrong?

Oh yeah. Well, I was about to say that and I think I went off as usual, but usually I come back. But I was going to say, Unless I did say it. I've said nearly all of my life the great difference between a religious Jewish or Christian education and secular is that in religious life you are taught that your greatest problem is you. In secular life, at least in the modern period, you're taught your greatest problem is America. That is the great right-left dividing line.

Right.

Do I fight me and my nature or do I fight America?

Well, what about starting small? I mean, you never hear like, you know, create a— for instance, when we hear about educational differences between, you know, white students and Black students, you never hear like people, leftists encouraging people to open up a tutoring clinic in their own community or volunteer 5 hours a week in their own community. What you hear is we have to spend $1 trillion on this reform. Why is the answer to go big? Sometimes the answer is actually to go small, but not, not according to them. All right. The fountain pen's out.

Yes.

Oh, are you writing a response?

No, I want to, I want to write a column on what I just spoke about. Fight yourself or fight America. It's so important.

Yes. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said fight racism. The conservative counterpart to that bumper sticker would be fight you.

Yes. Fight yourself.

Fight yourself.

I have another answer to that bumper sticker. Fight people who say fight racism. Right. Want to make a better America? Don't starve me because there's so little racism in the country and it almost all emanates from the left anyway. But anyway, that's another issue. So you saw my speech At the Arizona State Capitol. So for those listening or watching or both, I spoke at the Arizona State Capitol on the hearings that they convened on Arizona State University. 37 of their professors objected to Charlie Kirk and my speaking there. It be— the issue went viral when the Wall Street Journal published an op-ed piece by a woman who lost her job because they invited me. A lot of terrible things happened. That's why I told this bitter joke from Soviet dissidents. They used to say, in America— no, no, in Soviet Union there was freedom of speech. In America there was freedom after speech. That's the key, is there freedom after speech. Arizona State University has a commitment to free speech, but look at the repercussions of going there. So you saw the speech, which I want— I really hope goes viral. I'm gonna put it up everywhere I can. And look, I give a lot of speeches. I have thousands of speeches. So if I feel one really needs to go viral, it's because I really believe— it's only 20 minutes. But I, I, I think I demolished these 37 liars. I mean, to say that this guy Dennis Prager devoted his life to fighting evil like, like Nazis, that I am a white nationalist— the, the combination of lying and, and hate is unparalleled. And this is 37 out of 40, 37 out of 49, I think it is, professors at this Barrett College, the honors college.

Well, you did— I mean, I have so many reactions to the speech. We played it for the entire third hour of your radio show a few days ago. It was just magnificent. And sorry, Juliette and Virginia, who thinks I compliment you too much, but it's worthy of the compliment. Everyone should watch it. I think it should be the model for how to fight against leftists like those despicable human beings who are trying to cancel you for daring to share your values. I'll say a few things. First, you did really a magnificent job of proving How they're calling you the hater, they are the haters. Isn't that interesting? We've remarked about this on this program several times, excuse me, but on the left, up is down, left is right, good is evil, evil is good, racism is not racism, not racism is racist. It's all like backwards. And what they were doing to you by accusing you of being the hater is the epitome of that. The people, they are the haters for trying to cancel you and tear you down. I thought you explained that really well. Also, it's funny that they were saying that hate— was it one of the congresspeople that said that hate speech is not protected by free speech?

Yeah, one of the— not Congress, but the state legislature.

So how interesting, because I would consider them calling you a white nationalist hate speech. So when it's hate speech that they like, it's protected, i.e., they think they should be allowed to call you a white nationalist. But when it's hate speech that they don't like, it's not protected. Which one is it? And then another thing that came to mind.

Right, you won't forget your next point, right?

I won't, I have like 10.

Okay, good. That's a very important point.

Yes.

Why is that not hate speech?

It is. It is the opinion.

This Jew is a Nazi.

It's awful. I mean, it is. I would consider it to be hate speech.

And so, well, if it isn't, there is no such thing.

Right.

But, but of course that's protected, right? You're— no, no, you're— I'm just amplifying your point.

No, I mean, I would have— I mean, I want to say that to them, that, well, do you consider what you just called me as a religious Jew? You basically just called me a Nazi. Do you not consider that hate speech? You think you ought to be allowed to say that? But then my talking about my happiness books and my, you know, thoughts on male sexuality, that's hate speech.

My favorite is actually the Charlie Kirk issue.

Oh, that was brilliant.

Yeah, that was brilliant. Is a hater. He spoke the entire half hour he spoke on why he keeps the Sabbath as a Christian, that you should turn your cell phone off for a day a week. That's, I mean, the epitome of hate.

No, the best thing was when you said, I've written books on Judaism and Torah commentaries. Yeah, haters really do that. I've also written a book on happiness. Big hater here. I mean, the whole thing is absurd. A final point I want to make on this free speech issue, and then I actually have some questions for you about the hearing, is that whenever I see people who want to tear down free speech. I think it is the ultimate despicable irony because they are using their free speech to advocate for the suspension of free speech. The only reason why they can toy around with putting limitations on the First Amendment is because they have free speech to be able to toy around with tearing down the First Amendment. Does that make sense? They are literally using the vehicle to tear down The vehicle they use. How does it make sense?

They use conservative, traditional Americans' tolerance to promote intolerance. Same thing.

Yes. I mean, they are literally slashing the foundation that they stand on.

That's right.

I don't know if they realize that, but at least to me, it's glaringly obvious.

This is the history of communism. It is a— as the biblical phrase goes, it is a land that eats its own inhabitants. So you wouldn't know this, this was obviously my field of study. So the Soviet Union, so I'm laughing, it's not laughable, but the only alternative is to cry. Virtually every leading Bolshevik, comrade of Stalin's in making Stalin possible by Lenin died in 1923, Stalin was in full power by '29. Took years to consolidate. So in the '30s, he had vast show trials. Most of the time they were against his colleagues, fellow Bolshevik leaders who were tortured in prison into confessing. And you can obviously torture people into saying anything. And usually they would say to their torturers please tell Comrade Stalin that I'm here in prison. You'll see I'm not an anti-communist. I'm not anti-government, whatever you're accusing me of. Not knowing Stalin ordered them to be tortured. The, the, these people who, who are undermining free speech They will be eaten up by their own revolution. That happens in every left-wing revolution, from the French Revolution to what's happening now.

Yes, that is absolutely true. Going back to a Supreme Court ruling a few weeks ago about the designer, the website designer who was asked to make a website that was pro-LGBTQ, not that she was asked by gay people to make a website, but she was asked to make a website that was pro-LGBTQ causes. She said for religious reasons, she did not feel comfortable making that site. The Supreme Court ruled in her favor that just as you cannot restrict speech, you also can't force people to say certain things that they don't want to say. And Clarence Thomas, who we both adore with good reason, wrote this amazing concurring opinion. And he said, this is as much a win for the people who, who don't want to design LGBTQ websites as it is for people who don't want to design anti-LGBTQ websites.

That's right.

You know, that's protecting those individuals too. If someone comes into your— if you're a wedding designer and you're a leftist, or if you— and someone says, a really uber religious conservative comes in and says, I want you to make this site about how transgenderism is a mental illness, that person under that Supreme Court really has the right to deny it.

Marriage should be between a man and a woman, right? You should be forced to make that cake in the case of the woman, the baker in Colorado.

But they don't, they don't see that, especially within the matter of free speech. It's a win for all of us if free speech is protected. It is a win for them as much as it is for conservatives, because as you very well said in that in that speech of yours, when you start saying some things aren't allowed, it will, it will surely come to you at some point.

Yeah. The example I used was the recent demonstration of real Nazis, not left-wing accusations of Nazis, real Nazis with a real swastika in front of whatever the distance was, but in front of a Georgia synagogue. The police didn't stop them saying they had freedom of speech. And I agree. And I said to the Arizona legislature, if you stop Nazis' speech today, you will stop Zionist speech tomorrow. And I'm a Zionist. Zionist, for the record, just means someone who believes that the Jews' return to Zion is a noble enterprise.

AKA Israel.

Right. That's what Zionists are. AKA Israel.

So I have a question for you. One of the thoughts, the recurring thoughts that I was having watching that speech, and frankly, I have it a lot when I just listen to you talking about any subject, is how could any decent person argue with what you're saying, especially that speech you gave? I mean, you were incredibly fair. You very clearly outlined how free speech is a win for all of us. And so to consider that someone like the congresspeople or the state legislators who were confronting you, it's really difficult to consider what it is about them that makes them hate you and your ideas so much. It is so obviously decent and egalitarian. So my question for you is, why do they hate you so much? Are they like seeing a different reality than we're seeing when they're listening to that same speech? Do you think they're really seeing a hate mongerer, or do you think that they feel obligated to oppose you because they know that members of their political party will like them better if they oppose you?

Oh, no, they oppose me without asking themselves what's politically astute.

So they watch that and they see— they really see a hate.

Okay, so here's the beauty. You will not see this in the— what I'm putting up, because it's just my, my talk and the Republican legislators' questions. The Democratic legislators didn't say a word while I was up there. They all spoke, every single one of them, after I sat down.

Isn't that amazing? They're terrified of you.

They are.

They really are.

They are. And what they said For example, I remember one of them saying how wrong I was for calling these 40— these 37 professors lowlifes. The woman— and they, interestingly, they were all women—

the woman called you a white nationalist?

No, no, no, no, no, it's worse than— it's, it's more illogical than that. My calling them lowlifes is indefensible. They're calling me a Nazi, right, is defense. Oh, is that what you're— I'm sorry.

Yes, all right.

So, okay, so my— I, I said to friends of mine who were, who were present after it was over, I I'm debating whether to even say this because it sounds like all it is is a throwaway insult, but I don't mean it as an insult. With one exception, the comments were not just, you know, hateful or whatever. They didn't reflect fine minds.

That's putting it lightly.

Well, it is, but it's actually— it's not that they're stupid, it's that their mind doesn't function properly. It's a very hard thing to explain. They made comments that reflected having heard nothing of what I said, and they may not have heard anything I said. I believe that's possible.

Well, Astrid told me, for those who don't know who Astrid is— where have you been? Astrid is this Danish woman who Dennis befriended when he was in Denmark, and she's magnificent. She's conservative.

Yeah, she has her own broadcast.

Yes, she's in Denmark, and she's become one of my dear friends. And she came with you to Arizona. And so we were catching up about it, and she told me that one of the state— my urge is to call them congresspeople— state legislators, I guess it's the same thing, was talking. She was Native American and she was talking about the genocide that she says that Native Americans had to endure. And then when you were on the stand, you brought up that it is such a— it's vicious and libelous for them to call you a white nationalist because you are a Jew who has whose family were victims in the Holocaust, and also your father was a fighter in the Holocaust for the cause of goodness. And then Asher told me that then that woman, the Native American woman, said, well, when I was talking about the genocide of my people, you didn't want to hear it, but now you're talking about the Holocaust and we have to hear it. That is a total non sequitur. It shows you that they're very confused people. And I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it shows a level of confusion. First of all, you're on the stand. She's not on the stand. It's a non sequitur for her to bring up a genocide that may or may not have happened to her people when she's a questioner. You were being accused of being a white nationalist. So of course you're defending yourself, among other things, by citing your history as a Jew.

It's like, does she not understand that Well, unfortunately, she kept saying that hate speech is not free speech.

Right, except the hate speech against you.

Of course, but that's not hate speech in her mind. That's just accurate statements. But of course, everybody who engages in hate speech thinks they're speaking accurate statements. So that's the reason all hate speech should be allowed. The only hate speech that's not allowed— oh, by the way, she said, well, not all speech is allowed. Like don't cry fire in a crowded theater. Everybody uses that example. Right. Fine. But that's nothing to do with hate speech. It's not. That's imminent creation of chaos and danger. Yes.

So no, but like sometimes leftist individuals, not all, but many will like make these statements that literally just don't make sense given the context. I'll give you another example. Was I posted something on my Instagram where I was talking with Larry Elder and I cited this fact that in 2019, 12 unarmed Blacks were killed by police. And I was saying this hardly indicates the presence of systemic racism with cops if only, and the number should be zero, but still only 12 unarmed Blacks were killed.

Well, it can't be, no, no, it does, with all respect, it doesn't have to be zero. How do we know that all 12 did not merit being shot? The fact that you're unarmed doesn't mean You're not a mortal threat.

Exactly. But I was saying, I said 1,200 Blacks were killed in 2019 by police. Someone comments and says like, you're crazy and your facts are wrong. And so I wrote back, I said, which fact? What is wrong? And she writes back saying, well, Black people have known this fact for a long time that police kill Black people. And you as a white person, you know, you didn't have to confront that reality. And then I wrote back to her and I said, so we agree on the fact, like she, she just made a non sequitur. Well, and this happens.

She would— the whole thing is non sequitur. The issue isn't— the issue isn't who said it. The issue is, is it true?

Right. But that's the point. She made a non sequitur. And what I'm trying to say by bringing up all these examples is that I've noticed Many leftists tend to do that. They will take a context and then bring up another context and it will have nothing to do with the other. And it supports what you just said, that, that they're very confused.

Well, it was certainly evident at the, at the hearing yesterday and it was, it's, I have to admit, even for me, it's a little disconcerting because I'm thinking, Did you not hear anything I said?

Well, that's my question. Are they— did they— did they hear it and they know it's true and just feel obligated to oppose it?

I don't have an answer.

Or did they literally not understand?

You don't have an answer, and I don't have an answer. To enter that mind is not possible for us. By the way, that's why I said— you said why? I said because the bad hate the good. This question of why they hate me I raised this and I think I mentioned this. Yeah, I'm sure I mentioned it on one of our podcasts when I spoke for Moms for Liberty in Philadelphia a few weeks ago. So there's a big demonstration, anti-Moms for Liberty, LGBTQ Pride demonstration against it right in front of the hotel. So I walked over to them and I forgot. I'm recognizable. I know it sounds silly, but I figured maybe the left doesn't know who I am, but I was wrong. Anyway, they came over, and I— and I'm sure to their shock, I just very calmly talked to them, and I said, I'm just curious, I think I've devoted my life to goodness. Why do you hate me? So do you know the only answer I remember? Was fascinating. You want to return America to the 1960s. That's what— that was the answer.

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And tell me how you— did I tell you this? Is this new to you?

You told me about the Jewish student who told you that you support Nazis.

Okay, so you mean you haven't told me this? Okay, good. I'm glad. But even if I did, it's worth reviewing. So I thought that was actually an understandable response. They have in their mind that America prior to the '70s was a black lynching, Jim Crow, gay-bashing, even arresting, woman-hating society. That stuff existed. Well, the lynching had already ended, thank God, but that's not the totality of America of the 1950s, 1960s. What— and okay, here is the rule to weigh the way you judge any society. Was the bad it did unique, or did everybody do it? Was the good they did unique, or did everybody do it? That is the only legitimate way to judge the past. So here's the answer: every evil America engaged in So did the rest of the world. Wherever there were multiple races or even just tribes, as in Africa, there was hatred. Okay. Gays were a problem virtually everywhere to any society. It's not a defense, it's a description. But freedom that existed in this country was unique.

And the way that we overcame that bigotry is unique.

Yes.

Hello. Half of Africa's 54 countries criminalize homosexuality, and several of those countries are other companies, countries immediately punish it with the death penalty. Hello. We have overcome, even though, yes, there were some horrible things in our country. We have largely—

Right. But they again, they were universal.

Yes.

The uniqueness of America was not its bad. The uniqueness of America was its good.

So I have a question for you. I think that is an excellent way to judge societies. Do you think that can be applied to judging people?

Yes, totally. You have to judge people in their generations as Noah. That's right. That's what it says. He was righteous in his generations. There is no other way to judge a human being because we will all be judged. I always give the example, there will probably be a vegetarian future. I'm not sure, but I think—

What do you mean by that?

I think that there will be a time that most most people will just be vegetarian.

Not me.

Okay, I'm with you on that. But I, I, I, because they may well really create perfect substitutes. Yeah, they might. And then every one of us who lived now and ate meat, they were meat eaters, tear their statue down. That, that's the equivalent. When, when, when they will do X.

Yes.

Or not X and we did X, we will be shoved down the memory hole, as Lenin would put it.

You know, the people who judge the 1960s so harshly, I would like to ask them this question. If you cannot stand up against wokeism, if you cannot stand up against the moral atrocity that we are seeing in the United States today, that is allowing 13-year-olds and minors to get their breasts cut off in the name of gender-affirming care.

Well, it's more 17 with the breasts cut off, but People as young as 13 have that happen to them in the US.

Yeah, there was a case of a 13-year-old that got a double mastectomy.

Really?

Yes, I'll send it to you. I mean, look, it's, it's not rampant, but it's certainly, it's happening.

Well, no, even if it's rampant at 18, it's right. It's evil.

Well, gender-affirming care, which is hilarious, is gender-denying care. Another example of the inversions of the left. The point is, if you can't stand up to that, You can't stand up against wokeism. You really think back if you were in the 1960s, you would have stood up to all of these things?

You know, superb.

Come on, give me a break. You are— you are such a coward now. You get so offended by the small. You can't even stand up to the most obvious evil. But you would have been a civil rights activist 60 years ago.

So depressing to me about the herd-like behavior during COVID Yeah. That's when I wrote my two columns, The Good German and The Good American.

You know, I was thinking about COVID recently because I'm doing a show on Timeless about art. Another example of how you and I— people probably think of us as just like political creatures. We love talking about the nonpolitical more than the way— more than the political, actually. Yes. I was thinking about COVID and because I looked at this painting of Napoleon visiting plague victims. And he actually— Napoleon really did that in the 19th century, probably in part because he knew that if he did it and he didn't get the plague, he would be seen as this kind of like deity figure. But still, he went and visited people under his jurisdiction who were seriously ill. And the plague was no joke. The plague was not COVID. The plague was like life-ending. And I just think, look at that bravery. And yet we, what do you think Napoleon would've thought of us? And we are like, people are like Lysoling their Frosted Flakes and they're disinfecting their groceries. I mean, virtue has, real virtue has been killed. We have killed it.

The, the woke-ization of the armed forces.

Oh, I, I just did a show on that.

Yeah. So give people an example.

Okay. Well, according to the United States Pacific Command, which is a subset of our Navy, you cannot call people by gendered pronouns. You can't call someone young or old. And get ready for this one. You can't even call someone a sergeant because there are some people who aren't sergeants and it may make them feel sad that they're not a sergeant. They're removing military titles in, in this one part of the Navy, the US Pacific Command. Which is, by the way, in charge of dealing with China. I'll send this to you. I'll put— I'll send this to Sean and we'll put it in the description down below. There's a list of things.

So what do you call them? Jerry?

I guess you just call them by their first name. I played a video.

What if it's a gendered first name?

Great question. I don't know.

Like Julie.

No, honestly, that's actually— that's a really good point that you just made because once we start getting rid of pronouns, you're right. The next thing is to get rid of like, Feminine sounding name. So what are we just going to call people? Object?

Or first letter?

That's a really good point. God, we need to remember that. You should say that on your radio show. But oh, there is a video that is shown to the Army, not a subset of the Army, the entire Army, that has these two people who like say their pronouns and they're talking about the ways to avoid using gendered language and they talk about creating a safe space. As Elsie pointed out, a safe space in the military— the whole point of the military is to go to unsafe spaces. It's sick. It's sick. And also, I mean, I mean, literally, these people are— I'm sorry, they're deranged.

Just a place where your feelings can't be hurt in the Army, Navy, or Air Force.

And the literal whole point of enlisting is that you go to unsafe spaces.

That's right.

That is the ultimate irony. I mean, I just had this— I shouldn't laugh because it's so—

police, we will not send you into any danger.

Yes, I had this, I had this, uh, thought as I was broadcasting that kind of made me laugh, even though it's, it's so awful. So they're talking in that video about how to like confront people with and talk to them about their gender. So let's say China invades Taiwan and we, the United States, go in to defend Taiwan and we encounter— and our military people encounter some Chinese military people. Do you really think it's going to work out for our military people to go, hey, before you shoot me, what are your pronouns? Like, do they think that's what's going to happen? Honestly, I know it sounds like kind of like a cheeky or like cute question. I'm being dead serious. Do they want that?

Well, you know, this is the lowest, I think, enrollment rate, enlistment rate in the armed forces since we have a volunteer army.

Yes. And according to the Epoch Times, 80% of American men aged 17 to 24 are unfit to serve. Like physically unfit. Yeah, we're screwed. I'm sorry.

Wait, it doesn't mean that 20% that are physically fit are mentally fit.

Well, exactly. What I don't understand—

they may be safe spaces guys.

What I don't understand, and it's the same thing with these ASU people. By tearing down free speech, you're ultimately just harming yourself. You're going against your best interest because it will come to you by making our Army, Navy, our military writ large weaker.

That is going against one of their best interests to be safe. Devoted my life to studying the left. One of the things that they never consider is what precedent am I setting? And will it hurt me? So, for example, arresting a former president of the United States and the leading candidate to be the nominee of the opposition party, arresting that person— we've never done this in American history. They don't think that one day when Republicans have power, they won't do it to them? And by the way, they should do it to them. There is no other answer to evil than hurting them. And if in the way they hurt you, I don't mean torturing them or anything like that, but if you arrest our candidates, we will arrest your candidates.

Also, we have reason to arrest their candidates.

Yes.

Hello. Our president is bought off by China. Well, and Ukraine.

Okay, I'm not going to go there because it's so true, but politics is not my first choice. I just, I'm just offering the general principle, right? Aside from the, I believe, the most corrupt administration in American history, the Biden administration. Let even if it were not the most corrupt, there was always— what is it? There is a— have you heard this phrase? You can— how easy it is for a prosecutor to get someone indicted. You can indict a ham sandwich. Did you ever hear that phrase? Yes, it's a very famous phrase. Look it up. You'll enjoy it. You could. And it's true. A prosecutor to say someone is indicted tells you almost nothing. You can— there's no defense, basically. There's no attorney for the other person. You, you just bring any evidence and some jury will indict you. It does— it, it doesn't mean almost anything, but unless it is egregious criminality, arresting the opposition leader must happen to you to put an end to it. If you think you're the only ones which evil always believe, we're the only ones who can get away with what we do because there's a self-righteousness with regard to political evil that is always present. So they think, well, Trump deserves it. Your man doesn't deserve it, or your— we can't find a man of yours that will deserve it. And That's the only way to— it's like, I'll tell you the perfect analogy, MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction. Only if the left understands we destroy you, we get destroyed, will we stop this.

That is absolutely true. Well said. It's a sobering thought, and it's one that I hesitate to say, but I have to be, you know, when we have this rule, When you're hesitating to say something on Dennis and Julie, you say it. So it's not even worth mentioning that I'm hesitating because it's going to come out anyway. I really worry that I will see the United States end in my lifetime. I'm not saying I think for sure it will happen. There are reasons for optimism. I do think more people are being alerted to how crazy these leftist policies and ways of thinking are because it's It's really, especially over the past 2 years, it's come, I would say it's come into almost every American's life in their working life, in their personal life. I'm sure a lot of people have been canceled by friends or family members. I'm sure a lot of people have seen the woke gender racial stuff in their workplace, in their kids' schools. There is reason for optimism, but boy, things are so bad. There is such a large contingent of people that really hope to see this country go down, not just our accomplices in, or not just complacent or accomplices in the demise, but really actively wish to see it go down. I'm 23 years old. I really look ahead to my life and I go, when I'm 40, will there be a United States of America?

I don't know.

Will I be, I mean, I seriously fear, and again, I'm sorry if this sounds dramatic, but I'm being honest. Especially with the job I have, I fear that I may one day be arrested on some phony charge. If Mark Houck, who is praying in front of an abortion clinic, praying, wasn't harming anyone, was arrested and 25 FBI SWAT members were sent to his home, it could happen to— I say things that are a lot more angering to the left than praying in front of an abortion clinic. It's a really terrifying thing.

When did that happen?

Oh, this happened like 9 months ago or a year ago.

He was just praying.

Yes, he was praying in front of an abortion clinic.

What was he charged with?

Trespassing.

Was he?

Well, I think he was on the lawn of the abortion clinic. Yes. So maybe technically he was. I think there is a law that you can't pray in front of an abortion clinic.

Well, the point is well taken. The amount of destruction in the 2020 riots that went unpunished, unarrested, unindicted.

How about all these examples of people walking into CVS and there are videos and they're literally just putting merchandise into trash bags and walking out? They're trespassing, they're stealing, and they don't have 25 FBI SWAT members.

Not only that, even if they're caught in California anyway, if it's under $900, It's just a misdemeanor.

Yeah.

And you could do it daily. They don't add it up. They don't— you don't have an account.

Or the— or the people, the Tennessee state legislators who let those 400 rioters come into the state Capitol after the shooting at the Covenant School. The Biden administration invited those legislators to the White House, the ones who were letting the people in.

That's right.

There is a— there is There is political persecution front and center right now in the United States. If people don't see it, they are blind or they are willfully blindfolding themselves. And so, yeah, I worry. I worry for my future. On that happy note.

So a final word on that. It can't, it can't, it can't work geographically. It's just, But I will admit, national divorce. Yeah, that if, if all— and it really is all— if all the major cities of the United States made a left-wing America and left the rest to us, it would be sad. But I'd much rather raise my child in a society without San Francisco, LA, Philadelphia, etc., as they are now, than with them. I have much greater fear that my child will be hurt in a Philadelphia or an LA or San Francisco school than in a Kenosha, Wisconsin school, right? I mean, is that, is that not obvious?

Absolutely. Look, it's not my first choice by any means.

No.

But if it would get— if If they would agree to it, I would— to the national divorce, I would say you can have whatever 25 states you want. We'll take the rest. You can have the coasts.

We'll do it. We'll do a transfer.

Yep. We'll take the rest if that's what it takes to get them to agree. I will go take the best.

But I'll tell you what will happen. I'll tell you, I've thought about this. So let's say that we're done. There's no question that the states with Judeo-Christian traditional middle-class values will prosper more than the others. There's no question. Just as San Francisco has been ruined by the left, those 25 states would be ruined by the left. So what would happen? They would move. I know they would move to our states and then ruin them.

Well, I would think that in our hypothetical United States 2.0, we would have a very, very strict immigration policy. We would have a big wall. We would have a really big wall. I'm laughing, but I'm actually not kidding.

I think So we don't keep you out by ethnicity or nationality. Yeah, we keep you out by ideology.

Well, that's what's— you're right, that's what's happening. Like, people are leaving California to go to— that's what happened with Washington State. Washington State used to be conservative.

That's right.

And now it's a liberal cesspool that ruled that if a kid runs away from their parents because their parents don't affirm their pronouns and go to a state shelter, the state shelter doesn't have to notify the parents. That is Washington State.

By the way, have they passed the bill in California, or is it?

I'm not sure if they passed it.

That, I mean, it actually states, yeah, in, in child custody cases, the, the preference is that the child go to the parent who is to— wants to affirm that minor child's new sexual identity. So if your daughter is 10, says she's a boy, and you divorce, the parent who says, no, you're really a girl, loses custody.

They're classified as an abusive parent.

Right.

What would you say to someone like me and I'm sure other young conservatives who really fear for our future?

Look, I never patronize people. You have every reason to fear for your future. On the other hand, you have every reason, therefore, to fight. It's not hopeless. There is hope. There, there is reason to fear for your future, and there is reason to hope for your future. So the only question is, what will you do? Get more of your peers to awaken to, to what is happening to what was the greatest country on earth.

By your example, to hearken back to earlier.

In part, in part.

Yes, in part.

Because you do have to articulate it as well. What a happy note to end.

I know, but you know what, it's real. We can't sugarcoat it. As you say, you don't patronize anyone.

Also, uh, you have to— people need to realize something. The aberration has been America. The, the ability to grow up in a free and affluent society was essentially unique to America and then some Western European countries and Canada, Australia, New Zealand. I mean, it's— these are aberrations in human history. It was normal to understand that life is painful. So the tragedy is that the left is destroying this beautiful aberration. That's the tragedy.

And they may not see it, but they are really working against their own best interest by doing so. It will not work out well for any of us, including them.

Just remember, mutual assured destruction.

I know, that was really good. I'm going to borrow that. And what was the other big insight from this episode that we have to write down? The, the the getting rid of gendered names. You're right. That's what's coming next.

Well, I think it's already begun. A lot of parents opt for— what do they call them? Gender-neutral, whatever names that's happening.

But it's still confined to like people just deciding to name their kids differently. I think you are prescient here. I think just as now in schools, they're actively teaching You shouldn't use pronouns. I think they're going to start actively teaching you shouldn't.

Nouns.

Nouns. Yes.

Yeah.

Pronouns is going to turn into nouns.

Tell everybody how to contact.

No, you do.

If you want to contact Julie.

So you're going to get it.

She—

take your bets.

Here is her address.

Oh, God, please don't do that.

I don't know your address. I think you do. Julie at juliehartman.com.

Julie at julie-hartman.com. Oh yeah, I only say it every week.

All right, but I don't listen. All right, when you go into this, uh, boilerplate, as the lawyers put it—

hey, I remember your Aunt Chippy. If I can remember that your aunt was Chippy, I think you can remember my email that I say every single week.

I'm just saying, my aunt Aunt. That's fascinating. You never said aunt, you always said aunt.

Aunt is— aunt is a creature.

I know. And I would like to know what percentage of Americans say aunt and what percent say aunt. I called her Aunt Chippy. Her name was Aunt Chippy. She was not named after an insect.

She gave you a lot.

But I'm very touched that we're mentioning her.

Yes.

She was a relative I loved.

Yes. You can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. You can also follow me @julierhartman, and you can follow Dennis on Instagram. See, I'm publicizing your own Instagram for you.

I have an Instagram?

Yes, you do. Yeah, it's called— it's @thedennisprager.

Oh, he wants me to show you how Aunt Chippy laughed. That was my Aunt Lottie.

You had an Aunt Lottie?

Yes.

How did she laugh?

So Aunt Lottie, who was older than my Aunt Chippy— Aunt Lottie would visit our home once a year for the Passover Seder. And Aunt Lottie had everything basically from the shoulder up was artificial.

Aunt Lottie loved plastic surgery.

No, no, no.

Shoulder up.

There was pre— this is pre— eyelashes, hair. Uh, something would, would come off if she, if she moved too much. So if, if something funny were said, yeah, she would laugh like this. So for those listening and not watching, her head was completely still and her shoulders went up and down.

You know, Kim Kardashian, who we mentioned last episode, and I think you got her name, which was Quite impressive.

And Khloe.

And Kourtney.

Uh, that's the one I didn't remember.

No. Yeah, okay. Anyway, she— I saw a video of her and she's obviously very into vanity, and she says that she tries not to laugh anymore because of the laugh lines. So when she wants to laugh, she just goes—

she said that?

Like, she— yeah, she puts her lips together.

Laugh lines?

Yeah. Hey, I love when I see laugh lines on people. I'm like, you've You've earned those laugh lines. Good for you.

You've had a happy life. They're actually called laugh lines.

Yeah, I think I probably have them because I laugh a lot.

I probably have them. That is a riot.

We all do.

Julie at julie-hartman.com.

And your Instagram is @thedennisprager. My Instagram is @julierhartman. And you can catch every D&J on this YouTube channel.

But they should write you because you read everything.

Yes, I read everything. Deeply appreciate it. Shalom.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure.

Why?

Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality, and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.