Dennis & Julie: Ladder to Heaven

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hey everybody, it's Dennis and Julie, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. What the number is this? What are we up to already?

16, I believe.

You're kidding me.

Can you believe it? It's flown by.

This is the 16th?

16 weeks. Is that 4? That's 4 months.

Well, I'll tell you, I would know this better than you for obvious reasons. It flies. Everything flies. I will be in radio 40 years next month. Wow. In August.

Congratulations.

Well, I didn't say it for that, but thank you. It is worthy of a congratulations, but that's not why I said it. I said it because I can't believe it. I remember day one like I remember last week's broadcast with you. Just, it's just the nature of life.

What was day one like?

Oh, it's funny you should ask because I don't think I've ever described it in a nutshell. ABC Radio in LA invited me to try out to be the host of a program where they had a priest, minister, and rabbi, which sounds obscure. It was actually one of the 2 or 3 most popular radio shows in all of Los Angeles, which is the home— because people are in their car so much— the home of talk radio. So they were— they either— she resigned or they got rid of the previous host And my name was brought to the general manager by a woman who had heard me speak. She was the head of the Board of Education of LA County or LA City, whatever it was. And he said, this is what I want. I want a young person who knows religion but who is not a clergyman and knows how to speak. And she goes, My God, you just described this kid I just heard, this 33-year-old kid named Dennis Prager. Didn't know me, of course, from Adam. All right, we'll try him out. The program was from 10 to midnight and with an incredibly huge audience, but that's a separate issue. And at 11 o'clock, the talk radio general manager— or not the general manager, the program director— slips me a note: tell them you'll be back next week.

I remember you told me that. You should have saved that.

No, it's, it's probably the most important note I ever received. I knew my life was changing at that moment, so it's very exciting. Anyway, time flies. That's, that's the, that's the thing. So you have a, um, shall we say mixed review email.

I don't know if I would call it a mixed review. The, the person said that they were positive but critical. Yes.

Okay, so we— the reason Julie's going to read it is we both believe, and this has been my motto in my life, always confront the elephant in the room.

Absolutely.

It's better in your personal life and in your professional life. Take it away.

I want to share an email that a very kind woman named Juliet wrote to me, and I really appreciate this message. She said, "Hi Julie." By the way, before I start, I want to tell you that you can email me at julie@julie-hartman.com. I just got this brand new email so people can email me directly instead of submitting—

Oh good, julie-hartman.com.

julie@julie-hartman.com. That's the email.

Right, yes. No, no, I meant you have a, you've set up a website.

Yes. An email from my website.

Yes.

Okay. I just wanted to tell you all that because I love hearing from people, good, bad. I really appreciate it. So here's what Juliet wrote. She said, hi Julie, I am a big fan of the Dennis and Julie podcast and have learned so much from you, but I do have a suggestion that I truly believe will improve your show. It is understood that you and Dennis are fond of one another. You tend to go overboard in your compliments and appreciations of one another in each episode, even to the point that I had to turn it off and listen to something else today because I don't have endless time to listen to the Dennis and Julie compliment hour. When you fawn over one another, it gets in the way of your message. I hope you take my criticism in the best way possible and continue on with the good work that you are doing. Kindest regards, Juliet in Virginia. Thank you, Juliet in Virginia. Sorry, I just threw my phone.

So Juliet in Virginia Juliette. Juliette, I'm sorry, what did I say?

I think you said Julianne.

Okay, Juliette in Virginia.

Yes.

So I have a number of reactions. First, A, I have zero issue with criticism. In fact, I actually appreciate it because I always want to do better. So I want to make that clear. I have, however, a thing to say, because Julie, I, I use these things as learning and teaching moments. So I have gotten emails in the course of my career that go as follows. Uh, you know, I've listened to you for 25 years, so I have such respect for you. 'But then you said,' and then they write something I said, and I realized this is not what she's writing. I want to make that clear. I'm just talking about a learning moment that I have had about human nature through correspondence from listeners. So you have said this, and in the worst case of the email, it will be, 'I now realize you're a fraud.' 'Or I can no longer listen to you.' And I, I, I have actually talked about this on my radio show when I, when I, on some occasions that I got those messages. And I've learned a lot about that, the ease with which we can disappoint people, especially if you are placed on a, on a high pedestal The ease with which you can fall off the pedestal is remarkable. So I wrote back to one guy, "So you've been fooled for 25 years?" I mean, think about what you wrote me. And people are always shocked if I respond, especially if they wrote me something negative. So why do I raise that? And then it's— this is not in that category at all. This woman is not leaving our show. She was very sweet. Let us say I listened to two people for an hour and they spent— and it's inconceivable to me it's more than 2 minutes, but even 2 minutes may be too much of how much we like each other or how much we admire each other.

I think it's more than 2 minutes.

Okay, well, that would be interesting. Let's say it's 3 minutes. Let's say it's 4 minutes. Which is really too much, I fully acknowledge. Let's say it's 4 minutes. So I would say to myself, I'll slog through the 4 minutes for all the good stuff that it's worth it. People need perspective in what they do in life, right? It's like books. I have bought books since high school, and my theory always was if I get one good insight, if I have to slog through 200 pages to get to one great insight about life, it was worth the time and it was worth the money. And I think people need to put things in perspective. What I, I, I have no issue with her raising the issue. I think it's important. I have an issue with, I just had to turn it off.

I don't have an issue with that. I actually, I think she may be right. And maybe this is because as you know, I'm intensely self-critical. I can see Juliet's point that it gets distracting. Look, we have a very special relationship. Sorry, Juliet. I know I'm acknowledging that again, but it's true. I mean, Dennis's work really just changed my life. It changed the way that I think. It brought me to this career. And I don't want to speak for you, but I think from your perspective, it has been rewarding for you to see a young person in this world.

Well, yes, that's true. Okay, so here we go. It's really terrible. It's like my dear friend Joseph Telushkin wrote a book on gossip. He said, if as soon as you— he said you shouldn't even praise people too much because then somebody will come along and criticize. Or in this case, they criticize and we're going to end up doing the same thing that she criticized us about.

I'm sorry, Julian.

All right, let me just say this. I adore her for her, not just because I see this much younger person carrying my message to the world. That's a great joy to me on an ideological, idealistic basis. You're remarkable. End of issue.

Well, thank you. I do think that I can see how it would be a bit distracting.

So could I. I had a problem with they're really worthwhile, so I won't just patiently, you know, whistle Beethoven's Third Or, uh, or, you know, ladder to heaven or whatever. What is the famous, uh, Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven? All right, all right, ladder. Okay, Sean, don't mock me for ladder over stairway. Do you know Stairway to Heaven?

I don't.

So this is interesting. Will Led Zeppelin— Led Zeppelin, will they go through the generations Or like the Beatles have. The Beatles have definitely transcended generations.

Absolutely. I love the Beatles.

Yeah, that's— that was interesting that you didn't know Stairway to Heaven. No, that's really— it's been seminal to my—

I am remarkably unclued in though. I don't know.

I don't— I don't know. It would be interesting to find out if the average person your age knows Stairway to Heaven. I, I don't know, and I don't have a vested interest. By the way, does the average person your age know Frank Sinatra?

I would say that people know his name, but they wouldn't know any pieces of his work.

Do you?

I bet if I heard—

What do you listen to written prior to the last 25 years?

I listen to a lot of Billy Joel. Actually, when I guest hosted for you, Sean, our lovely producer, said to us, "See, Sean, I just gave you a compliment." Oh, I immediately removed that. By the way, before we move on from that, I just want to say we get it. And thank you for raising that.

And I love getting— we're gonna devote a minute to insulting each other from now on.

Let's do that.

Yes, you're too self-critical.

That is true.

Which just will lead to more compliments. I know.

You're too complimentary.

I engineered that well. Wait, so go on with Billy Joel. Yeah.

Yes, so I listened to a lot of Billy Joel. When I guest hosted for you, Sean said to me that morning, what music would you like to have open the show? And I thought to myself, my God, I have no idea. And the first thing I thought of was Billy Joel because my mom is a big Billy Joel fan. And growing up, we would listen to all of his music in the car. My favorite song is— I actually can't pick— Piano Man, Tell Her About It.

You— I love Piano Man.

Oh my gosh, it's spectacular. Scenes from an Italian Restaurant is one of my favorite ones. I think, I think Sean, you played Tell Her About It when I opened the show. And that was, that was such a full circle life moment because I remember my mom driving me to swim practice when I was all of 7 years old and listening to that music.

And then you began serious swimming at 7?

Oh, I began, began, excuse me, serious swimming at 5.

Was that obviously, that was your parents' idea?

Yes.

And then you became a competitive swimmer?

Yes, and water polo player. Yeah, I played sports from a very young age. Every day after school I would go to 2-hour practices.

But you still swim?

No, I, I am so burnt out from swimming that I will not go into a pool. You know, during my 4 years at Harvard, although it wasn't 4, it was 2, 2 and a half roughly, I never went into the pool once. And I was right next to the athletic center and there was a pool that you could go in and I just, I could not go in because I was so burnt out. I will swim in the ocean though. I love the ocean, but pool, forget about it.

You mentioned the term that it would actually— I won't dwell on it, not because it's not a compliment issue, but I, I have so much other stuff that I want to talk about. But this burned out thing, I have a lot of thoughts on. You know, I laughed through high school. I spent 4 years cracking myself up.

Yes, but as we mentioned during the last podcast, you were doing substantive things outside of school.

Oh yeah, no, no, no, I was doing very many serious things but not high school. High school was a total crack-up for me. I enjoyed it, I had fun, I laughed, I did silly things, and I, when I meet people who were spectacular in high school and then spectacular in college, I think I have a big advantage I have never ever come close to burnout because I didn't start that stuff till much later in life. I was sitting next to a woman— this is— I know you don't know the story. I was sitting next to a woman on a plane. I was speaking— I spoke in a small Northern California town, so we were on a small plane out of this town to get back to LA. So I could, I could, uh, well, even if it was a big plane, you overhear anything that the person next to you, she was on the phone before takeoff, sitting on the plane with clearly her son at Harvard Medical School. It all became clear and I couldn't help but hear it. And I was, anyway, I was riveted. He, and he said, and basically he was telling his mother, I'm leaving. I'm, uh, I burnout. So I said to her, look, I obviously am sorry, but I couldn't help overhearing your conversation. Do you have thoughts on why your son is burned out? She said, well, all he did was schoolwork intensely to get the best grades to get into Harvard, and now he's there and now he's burned out. And I'll never forget that conversation, and my theory on why I've never burned out. I didn't start going crazy on that stuff. That you're burned out on swimming is so interesting.

Oh, I cannot go into it.

Okay, so it's— you are burned out.

And also, by the way, until my junior or senior year of college, I did not read books recreationally. I was so traumatized because I went to a very academically rigorous high school where we had to read, I mean, like 2 or 3 books a week and we were constantly tested on them. And it was really unfortunate, but when I graduated from high school and I no longer was working to get those great grades to get into college, I just, I really took time off from reading. How unfortunate is that? And thank God I've come back to it now and I really, all I do now is read. But I had to take a major pause and I had to have a talk with myself too and say, don't let yourself get burnt out by this. Reading is too precious for you to succumb to this. But still, it was real. They sucked the joy out of it for me.

It proves everything has a price.

Oh, absolutely.

So you get your kid into a Harvard or some other prestigious university, they work their tail off to get great grades. Don't think that it didn't come with a price.

It did come with a price. I mean, of course, that doesn't mean that all of it was bad.

No, no, I fully agree.

I just said there's a price.

Totally.

But it's It does come with a price.

I paid a price for fooling around for 4 years in high school.

What was that price?

The price was I got into Brooklyn College rather than a prestigious college.

But was that a big—

But for me, that was zero price. To my parents, it was a huge price. My brother had gone to Columbia, then to Harvard Medical School. And Dennis, Brooklyn College? It was like an insult to the name Prager. I thought it was a blast.

By the way, one of my friend's grandparents. I hope he's listening. Grandpa Marty, he went to Brooklyn College and he is like a replica of you. I think you must have overlapped. I'll tell you his full name off air.

Okay.

But he is this fun, vibrant, magnanimous, irreverent old Jewish man.

So he's conservative.

He's awesome.

So this is so interesting. I would love to do And I'm not predicting what the results would be. I would just like to do a happiness test of kids at Harvard and kids at Idaho State.

You know, I think that's such an interesting point. It's something that I've reflected on a lot. Look, going to Harvard was an extraordinary experience.

I agree with that, by the way, and it's one of the only ones I agree with. I think Harvard is not as bad as Yale.

Going to Harvard truly was an extraordinary experience, and I, as I've said to you many times, I made great friends. I had a great dorm. I mean, just the, the reach that they have. I went on that trip to Israel, which was essentially all paid for, and we met with the president of Israel. Only it's not said in a brag way.

It's just true.

Only when you go to Harvard do you have that kind of access. However, you'll find this to be interesting, I think. The other day I was thinking to myself, how many people would still go to Harvard if they could not brag about it? Let's say you got in, and a condition of getting in was you can never put it on a resume, you can never tell people that you went to Harvard. How many people would still go? I'm— I don't know.

That's a fascinating question.

Well, that's a question I ask myself a lot, where I say to myself, Julie, who would you be if you are on a desert island and you didn't have the influences and pressures that everyone in the daily world has. I want to be— of course, I'm not advocating that we should not live in a civilization, but what I'm saying is I want to be as close to the person as I genuinely am, uncorrupted by societal influences and pressures. And I don't know, I look at a lot of students in the Ivy League And I'm not convinced that if they were on a desert island, they would be that person that they are at these schools.

Because their identity is the school.

Yes. And their identity is cranking out accomplishments.

Yes. Which is what you wrote in the Wall Street Journal.

Yes.

So again, I return to my question on the happiness issue. Is the average student— and I'm not saying I have an answer, but I'd like to know if the average student at the 5 most prestigious colleges whatever they may be, versus 5 non-prestigious colleges. I went to a non-prestigious college, so obviously I don't have an axe to grind here, but I would like to know, because not because of the college— I don't believe they're unhappy because of the college, right? But because of what they had to do to get into it. That's my point. How much of high school was robbed of just joy in life to make sure that they got the grades and their extracurricular activities to get into, into Princeton, right?

I would say that most people at these schools would say that they are happy, but I don't know if that's true. I think that a lot of them think that they're happy, but really inside there's a There's a soullessness, and I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.

Yes, there is.

But I actually was reading— this is fascinating, I should have actually— it may be in my bag, I may have brought it today. I was reading a 1960 commencement address at Harvard delivered by the former president Nathan Pusey, and he— the title of the address is "Why Are We Afraid to Believe in Anything?" It was crazy to read, Dennis, because so much of what he said in 1960 is ever true today. And one of the things he said was, students at this university may know a lot, but they don't have passion and joy and the sense of vigor in life. You know what, forgive me, to our listeners, just give me a minute. I really think I brought it, and it's, it's worth bringing out because it's— I did bring it. Well, God bless me.

It just gives you an idea of the radical deconstruction that has taken place.

Yeah, yeah. So, so the title is, 'Why Is It That So Many People Now Fear to Believe in Anything?' And again, this is the president of Harvard in 1960 delivering a commencement address. He talks about excessive specialization that he witnesses among the students, and he says here The Western world has for some time seemed to be adrift with little sense of purposeful direction, lacking deeply held conviction, wandering along with no more stirring thought in the minds of most men than desire for diversion, personal comfort, and safety. There has been a deficiency of passion and of concern. And he says, oh, this is, this is the best part. There can be something desiccating about an intellectual life that has become excessively cerebral, liberal, critical, abstract, and detached. It used to be taken for granted that at least youth was always ardent and enthusiastic. So essentially what he's saying is, in our quest to be intellectual and be rational, we've lost our passion and vigor for life that makes you a whole person.

It's worse than that. They've also lost their rationality.

Well, right, that— well, that's certainly true.

The death of religion is what I always come to in my mind.

Absolutely. Well, another thing that this essay made me think about— of course, I think the, the main problem is that there— we live in a largely secular environment and these universities are secular. But also, even the way that I wrote essays in high school and college, it was always criticizing something, it was always dissecting something. I never got a positively framed prompt, if you will. It was always critique this essay, critique this movement in history, et cetera. You know what would have been a great essay question? I would have loved to have written on this. What if someone just said, what do you believe in? What matters to you? And you could just write about that. I never in my entire educative experience encountered a prompt like that. It was always dissect this.

Well, the left can only dissect, right? It builds nothing. It's a horrible aspect of it, right? So I got a question on my, uh, on my PragerU weekly podcast, the fireside chat, and it's mostly young people watching. So some young 18-year-old from somewhere wrote in something You know, Dennis, give me some help in choosing, you know, what do I do with my life? And I spontaneously came up with the following thought that is constantly now asked by young people: What do I do with my life? That was not constantly thought through human history. Everybody knew what they were going to do with their life. They were going to get married. They were going to make a family. They were going to get some job to feed that family, right? They were going to be— they were going to go to church on Sunday or synagogue on Saturday. They were going to join some other group, Bible study group, Rotary Club, bowling club, and enjoy fellowship with other people. And that would be a pretty damn fulfilling life. So when, when kids today ask, what am I going to do with my life? None of what I just said means a damn thing, right? If they, they've been told marriage is pointless, you could do it if you want, but it's point, you know, family, you know, you're going to bring kids into a world where they just pollute the world with carbon dioxide. Religion is for morons, if not fascists. Simpleton's, and, uh, there were no more associations that— they've been to a large extent, they're, they're gone. The Rotary Club and then this, and the Lions Club and the Bible Club. Bible Club, please.

I've never even heard of half of these. Can you believe it?

You never heard of Rotary Club?

I've heard of the Rotary Club, but the latter two you mentioned—

well, I don't know, just any Bible study group. Yeah, so It's fascinating. What— what, Dennis, what do I do with my life?

All—

only means what of excluding all of that, which is what does give life meaning. Yes. What—

it's—

isn't that fascinating to think about it that way?

It is, absolutely.

Like, what's wrong with, you know, getting married, making a family, joining a religious congregation, and, and, and all sorts of clubs with friends? That's a pretty damn rich life.

Well, I can tell you that's the problem. A lot of people would say that that is a boring and conventional life.

That's it. That's right.

Conventional.

Traditional. So I had a happiness hour within the last couple of months on another revelation, and it cracks me up that I keep coming to these at my age. I thought in my 20s I had really pretty much discovered it all, and that is We talk about gambling addiction, of course, alcohol addiction, drug addiction, sex addiction, right? There are all these addictions. I really believe the biggest addiction is excitement addiction. And that's what that guy's letter was about. What is going to give me excitement is really what he was asking me.

Yes. And what people fail to recognize, recognize is how much excitement later in life you will get if you follow these seemingly boring, conventional, traditional paths, which are certainly, they're traditional and conventional, but they are not boring. They will lead to a very rich life. And it's so, it's so unfortunate that people throw that out. I mean, look at those who pursue the alternatives. Are they happy in life? Are you telling me that a single man at age 70 is happier than the average married man at age 70?

Or woman.

Or woman, of course.

No, no, but of course.

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Anyway, just, just for the record, careers don't bring the meaning that the other stuff does.

Well, another thing, because I talk about this a lot with my friends— of course, I just graduated from college, and in those final months we were all asking ourselves, what are we going to do with our lives? And one of the points that I made is, especially at a school like Harvard, these elite institutions, everything is seen through the prism of the professional. And one of the things that I am really trying to do right now, and I've been trying to do over the past year, and it's, it's a lifelong project, is really get to know myself. Even just ask myself basic questions that you would ask someone else when you get to know them. What's your favorite music? Who is someone that you really admire? If you could identify 3 principles that you like to live by, what would those be? I do that almost every day. It's, it's It's an exercise. I just write in my journal. I come up with a question that I would like to ask you or anyone, and I ask myself. And maybe that seems a bit contrived or like you're studying yourself, but I think it's a really— you have to study yourself. And let me tell you, well, I remember a few years ago, I was watching an interview that I was watching Andrew Yang. Remember, he was one of the Democratic contenders for president in either 2016 or 2020. I watched an interview of his. The interviewer asked him, what kind of music do you like to listen to? It's what you just asked me a few minutes ago. And he said to, I think he said, oh, I like to listen to a lot of different things. And the interviewer said, like what? It was sort of like the Sarah Palin question. Remember when Katie Couric said, what newspapers do you read? And she said, all of them. But Andrew Yang couldn't, he was pressed on it and he could not come up with a single artist to name. And that was not shocking to me. And I did this experiment at Harvard. I would go around and I would ask people just basic questions. What's your favorite book? Just not professional questions, just life questions. And you would be stunned, Dennis, as to how many people do not know how to answer them because that's not what they value. They don't value personal enrichment. They value professional enrichment. And in high school, I remember I would meet a successful person and I'd go online and I'd look up where they went to college because that was just the cultural diet. that I can sense.

Do you do that now?

No. God, do I— I don't do that now.

Why don't you do that now?

Because I recognize that it's so stupid. I judge people based— and by the way, and I'm really not just saying this to make myself sound better, but I want to be fair to myself— I always first and foremost cared about the individual and their character, not where they went to college. But of course, you know, it was fun for me to look it up, and I did care a bit where they went.

Do you look it up now?

Well, to get back to that question, no, I don't. And I recognize that where you went to college says so little about you. It's a— it's almost like when you say, I heard you say this the other day, you said, um, race doesn't mean a thing. What do I know about you if you're Black? I don't know if you're kind. I don't know if you're smart. I don't know if you're athletic. I don't know anything about you. I just know that you're Black. I would like to say that's the same thing with people who go to college. I don't know a damn thing about you.

Well, that's— there is one thing that I do know. If you went to Harvard, Princeton, Berkeley, etc., and that is you worked your tail off in high school.

That's true.

So that's— and we got to that because of the burnout issue.

Yes.

Okay, so I—

yeah, which by the way, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. As you know, I've been reflecting a lot on my high school experience And I certainly was very burnt out by the end of it. Although I have to say, now that I look back, I am oddly grateful for how overstretched I was. Because now that I look and I see the trouble that teenagers can get into when they have too much free time on their hands, I think to myself, you know, maybe it wasn't the worst thing that I was studying on the weekends and swimming on the weekends. Of course, there's a balance. It doesn't have to be either or.

You don't have to make—

Right.

No, that's a, that's a, that's a good point. Look, busy with anything that is not bad.

I didn't do drugs, I didn't drink, I didn't— I mean, I was, I was a Puritan and I worked really hard. And, and I think for that reason I'm grateful for it. And also, I have to tell you, after doing that in high school, there is nothing that I think I can't accomplish. I see sometimes when I'm in difficult moments in my life where just, just as far as workload or obligations or time constraints, I think to myself, Julie, you took 5 AP courses, were a 2-varsity athlete, did club swimming and water polo on the weekends, and you had a 45-minute commute both ways to school. You can handle this. And that's empowering.

I have the opposite. Dennis, you graduated in the bottom 20% of your high school class, and look at where you've ended up. You can do anything.

That's funny. I love that.

Is that awesome?

What?

You could take the exact opposite.

I know.

And come to the same exact conclusion. Actually, I don't do that. This doesn't play any role. By the way, in speeches, you know what I say, right? Maybe you do or don't. I mentioned what— whenever it comes up, I go, I want you to know, folks, I graduated in the top 80% of my high school class. And there's no reaction often. And I keep quiet until somebody starts laughing, and then gradually the entire audience starts laughing.

Right.

So I want to bounce off on a completely different issue with you.

Sure.

On my show, I, I, my radio show, I talked about all of these young women on TikTok, especially announcing that Okay, you guys, you, you want abortion illegal? Well, that means no more hookups. And I read— oh, you have no idea how ubiquitous it is now on the internet, of all these young women going, no more hookups, guys. I'm not, I'm not going to gamble with an unwanted pregnancy from some guy, some random guy who's drunk and I have a hookup with. And I, I, I used that as well as— did you hear about those who said, you know, as long as Roe v. Wade is overturned, we're going to go on a sex strike? No, no sex with—

I am not aware.

Yeah, okay, so all right, fine. So I, I made the point, weren't all of these women told that their sexual nature is identical to a male?

Yes. And now they're— I actually originally had a quasi-positive reaction to your saying that because—

oh good, no more, right? Yes, I think less, fewer hookups will actually increase female happiness. It won't increase male happiness, but it will increase female happiness.

You know, the most controversial video that I have with you was from last summer when I was on your radio show once a week and we did a male-female hour and you interviewed me about college students and hookup culture. And I said that hookup culture is rampant and it's harmful to women. Women do not want to participate in it as much as you might think that they would want to, but they feel like they have to. And they've been told, oh, you want meaningless casual sex as much as men do. And as a result, they have meaningless casual sex, and the next day the guy doesn't text them, etc., etc., and they're unhappy. That was the most controversial video that I did. I remember people brought that up to me a few times a week at school in the beginning, and a lot of it usually was a lot of guys joking around with me and saying, oh, you're a prude, etc. And there were some girls who criticized me for it, and I couldn't believe it because I also have a lot of women who have privately said to me, good for you, it benefits— it plays right into men's hands. So I'm glad at least that there are finally acknowledging that there are differences.

Yeah, but that's the irony. I don't even think they would acknowledge there are differences, even though the whole statement that they're making—

that's true—

is, is that we're different.

That's an important—

they don't put two and two together. Yes, this is what drives me the nuts most— nuts about people left of center. They don't put two and two together.

Well, I think about that a lot with regard to this abortion issue. And look, as you know, Dennis, I am not a pro-life absolutist. I do think that in certain unusual and rare circumstances, I would allow abortion, but they have to be unusual and rare. But I remember I saw a post a few days ago on social media from someone I think I went to high school with. And actually, I saw it from a lot of people. This was a post that was being circulated around. And it said, I now have fewer rights than my mother did. And I sat there and I thought to myself, The only reason why you have rights at all is because your mother took the pro-life position, because your mother was functionally pro-life and valued your life enough to bring you to term. So the only reason—

great response—

the only reason why you have rights, period, is because your mother did not exercise a certain right that would have eliminated you. And so in that way, they don't put two and two together. And look, again, as I said, I am not a pro-life absolutist, but I can put two and two together that That makes sense.

It's precious. I'll show you these TikTok things. You know, the, the lack of self-awareness, which I speak about regularly about the left— this is a perfect example. It is. Oh, men and women are basically the same, but now that we can't get an abortion as easily, or in some states at all, uh, No more hookups, guys. But hey, I thought you wanted hookups.

Well, you want to know another one? I know we've talked about how many times in the past few days. You would not believe I have seen posts that say, oh, this overturning Roe is white supremacy. How does that make sense? Because abortions overwhelmingly, vastly, disproportionately affect minority children, especially Black children. How does that make sense? If you are— if you really want to get rid of minorities, you would be pro-choice. It does not add up that these pro-lifers are so-called white supremacists. Again, it just— the worldview does not add up.

Well, you know my line, truth is not a left-wing value. That's a perfect example. All of these white supremacists want more black babies, right? All these progressives want fewer black babies. So how does that add up?

It doesn't.

It doesn't have to add up. Whenever leftists say anything, it's that it be effective at the moment. Not— they, they never, and I mean literally never, ask, is it true? They want to know, is it effective?

Yes. Well, I also was thinking You know, I hear all the time that from, from leftists and from liberals, that we have to address the root causes of things. There are no simple solutions. We have to look back to the origins of problems. Well, look at this abortion issue. They, what they're saying now, and it's, it's a legitimate point, that a lot of children will now be brought into a world where they are unwanted and maybe will live in homes that are not good for them. But I look at that and I go, wait a minute, Isn't— why is the solution to kill the child? Why is the solution to punish that child that did nothing wrong? Shouldn't the solution be to alleviate the problems that create a home where the child is unwanted? What about addressing fatherlessness or poverty or education? So in that same vein, they say that, you know, there are no simple solutions and you have to address the root causes. But then when it comes to abortion, it seems like the very opposite, where they're not addressing the root causes of these problems, problems, and they're succumbing to a simple solution: kill the child.

Well, the same with guns, right? I have a very simple question for everybody on the— on this issue. Do you think gun violence will be reduced with more gun laws or more fathers? Which do you think will have a more successful resolution?

Look, the gun does not pull the trigger. A person pulls the trigger on the gun.

Just saying that means you're not on the left, right?

And look, again, I have nuanced takes on these issues. I do think that we should probably expand background checks, and I would support raising the age from 18 to 21 to buy a weapon. But the guns are not the problem with violence. The people who are pulling the triggers on the guns are the problem.

Well, I always use nuclear weapons as the proof. We're scared of Russia having nuclear weapons. We're scared of Iran having nuclear weapons. We're scared of China having nuclear weapons? Are we scared of France and Britain having nuclear weapons? They have them. Or Israel?

Right.

We worried about an Israeli attack on New York?

Nope.

The falafel attack. They'll drop falafel.

Oh gosh, Dennis, I want to go back to Israel so badly.

Oh, that's all I had to do was say falafel and that did it.

I know. I know. I was telling my mom the other day at dinner, I said, we could be talking about snails and I will find a way to bring it back to Israel.

Right, even though snails are not kosher, just for the record.

You know, Israel— this is fascinating. I know we're veering off a little bit, but I have to ask.

I love veering.

That's true. Veering is what makes it fun and interesting. I hope you— you be the judges of that, dear viewers. I feel like Israel is becoming woke now, like pretty militantly woke, and I'm shocked.

So I spoke— I want to hear why you think that in a moment. I just want to tell you, who was I speaking to? A non-American. I don't know what country he was from. And he said, if it's— it all starts in America, but it never stays in America. And in America, it starts in California and it never stops in California. It is the first time in my life— and this is a source of sadness. I'm a happy guy. But this is a source of sadness. America has always exported wonderful values, and now we're exporting garbage.

You know, I was thinking about this the other day, and I'll ground it in a personal example. I was driving home from Shabbat dinner that I go to with you every Friday night just a few days ago, and Shabbat dinner ends pretty late, as we both know. And so I was heading back home, it was about 11:30 or midnight, and right by my house, there's this particularly crazy intersection that's just kind of poorly designed. And, you know, there's a blind spot. Anyway, it's a mess. And they put in this light. Now, if you want to make a left turn, you have to get the arrow. You can't just go on green and make a left when all the cars have passed. So I'm sitting there, it's 11:30, it's midnight, and I'm thinking to myself, no one's here. I don't hear a car. I don't see a car. I'm waiting for this light to turn green and I'm thinking I could just go. No one would know. It would be totally safe and it's fine. And then I thought to myself, no, Julie, because, and we talk about this a lot, you have to develop good character and, and good virtues through habit. And I thought to myself, if you go this time, You'll think that you could do it the next time, and you'll think that you can do it the time after that, and you may be fine for the first time, second time, or third time, but there may be a time when you are not fine. But I would even take it a step further. Not only if I turned left during that time would I be teaching myself that I could break the rules, but if someone saw me doing that, they would also get the impression that they can break the rules too. Well, that girl got away with it, so I can get away with it. And to bring it back to our discussion of America and Israel, bad actions do not just end with you. Unfortunately, to your point, Dennis, now what we're seeing is that America gets the idea that it can promote these bad values and be woke, but we don't know the collateral damage that this is causing. In my analogy, Israel right now is the other driver that would—

so give me an example of woke values that are hitting Israel.

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On Birthright?

On Birthright, yeah.

Birthright— most of our listeners won't know this— Birthright was founded to kindle young American Jews' interest in being Jewish.

It's a beautiful thing.

It's a beautiful thing, and in Israel. And it was very wholesome, truly wholesome. And to hear that that's gone woke.

Well, also, I mean, a good piece of evidence is the way that they handled COVID and mandating vaccines.

Well, that was very disappointing to me about Israel. The— they were as bad or even worse on the lockdowns as America, shuttering businesses, schools. It's But that was almost universal. I mean, that's— but it was still sad. I've always wanted to think Israel marches to its own drummer, and it didn't turn out that way.

I even noticed, by the way, it's not just anecdotal evidence that I hear secondhand from my friends, although I do talk with them a lot because they're there right now on the ground in Israel. When I went on my trip, When I travel, I like to pull people aside just on the street and ask them questions and just try to get a sense of the culture. And there were a lot of young Israelis who seemed more woke than I thought when talking about Israel or when talking about America. A lot of the times I would ask them about America. And I was shocked. Look, it wasn't universal. But there were more Israelis than I thought that sort of subscribed to this idea that America is a systemically racist place. And that scared me because I really thought that Israel always preserved at least some level of rationality. Because in many ways, Dennis, and I wrote an article about this, which I have yet to publish, I think that Israelis are less woke than we are because they have to. They are, they rather they can't be woke. Look at how many threats they receive every day from every single one of their borders within their own borders. They don't have the luxury of being woke. Wokeism in America is synonymous with spoiled brat syndrome. Only a beautiful, prosperous, wealthy, affluent, free society such as ours would have the time to debate about whether there are 38 genders and come up with a million different pronouns. Israel does not have that luxury. I'm seeing it creep in more. Why do you think that is? Why is it creeping in more in Israel?

Because of what started this discussion, the influence of America on the world.

Well, do you— I mean, that's interesting.

Yeah, there's, there's no way around it, tragically. At the same time, it is worth noting that America has the, by far, the most robust conservative reaction to wokeness. This is the strongest conservative movement on earth, is in the United States.

So that motivates me, by the way.

Oh, it should.

That really motivates me.

European conservatives are jealous of us.

So you don't think it— I totally agree with you that the influence of America is right now.

It has been throughout history. It was Liberty. If you want liberty, you wave the American flag. They did this in Hong Kong 3 years ago, 2 years ago, right? They were waving the American flag, right?

I agree with you that what's happening in America is influencing Israel, but do you think any of it is coming from within? That's what, that's what I meant by my question.

It's impossible to know. I think it's been exported and then And then they pick up on it. You will find this fascinating. So I was interviewed on Benjamin Netanyahu's son. He has, Yair Netanyahu has a podcast. And he invited me on and I was on. He was in Israel. I was here. And, you know, he's a big conservative. And at one point I talked about the lockdowns and how injurious they were. They were. And he said to me, he said, Dennis, I just have to tell you, this is the one area where Israeli conservatives and American conservatives don't agree.

Wow. Why? So the Israeli conservatives are—

were 100% behind the lockdowns.

Wow.

And the vaccinations.

So again, why do you think that is?

That's not the influence of America. Well, I have a theory. No, it isn't. That one I have a theory on. And that is that Jews, mostly Jewish country, Jews worship doctors. That's my theory.

Why?

So that's a very interesting question. So it's a two-part answer. One is Jews tend to worship, and by— and obviously I'm not using that as a positive, It's like a false god worship. They worship the intellect, right? And because Jews had no physical might and Jews were not farming, they couldn't farm in antisemitic countries. They couldn't even have the land to do it. So Jewish life sort of contracted in and of itself into this highly intellectual realm. Including in religious life. And I think there's worship of intellect, false god worship of intellect, even in Jewish religious life. Oh, you don't know, you wouldn't know this, of course. A, you're not Jewish, and B, even if you were, you wouldn't have grown up in a yeshiva like I did. The kid who could recite by heart the most pages of Talmud, and that's Aramaic, I mean, that's not even Hebrew. He was the ilui. He was the intellectual giant of the class and the teachers fawned over him and so on. And I remember thinking, the kid memorized 10 pages of Aramaic and he's worthy of adulation? You know, I'd rather listen to Beethoven in my case, or play baseball than do that.

Right.

So I think the worship of the intellect— and now the second part is doctors, and I have a theory on that too. So, uh, and I have bounced this off Christians, and they, they, they thought it had merit. Jews and Christians— and I, I know both communities equally well, I'm blessed to be immersed in both— and here's my theory. They have a different take on suffering. For Jews, suffering stinks. End of issue. Get rid of it as best as you can. So the doctor is an adulated figure. For Christians, suffering is— to suffer is to be Christ-like. There is something religiously uplifting in suffering.

That's interesting. So how do you think this relates to doc—

or so medicine? Why I said why Jews worship doctors. Doctors are the army of suffering alleviators, right?

Well, this segues very nicely into a question I had for you, uh, about the Torah. As you know, and I'm sorry if this is coming off as a compliment, but it's true, I, I love your Torah commentary and I read it all of the time. And I've been meaning to ask you this question because I think, and look, I will admit that I've read most of the Bible, but I need to go back and reread many of the stories. I think so far the most important story I've read is that the Adam and Eve one, the one that fascinates me the most is the Garden of Eden origin story. And what I found to be so fascinating about your take on that story, if you will. It actually relates very much to what you said about the nature of suffering, is that you see the Adam and Eve story as the choice of man rather than the fall of man. You quoted this, I believe it was a rabbi, or maybe it was, or yes, it had to have been a rabbi because it was talking about the way Jews see the Garden of Eden. And he said something along the lines of Jews believe that people sin as Adam and Eve sinned, not because Adam and Eve sinned.

Right?

So I want to ask you, I really appreciate it because honestly, before reading your commentary, I never had heard it framed that way— the choice of man rather than the fall of man. I do think though there is something negative about that story because it's not— in other words, I don't know if I believe that it's simply a choice, or that it's sort of like presented as morally neutral, because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. And not only did they disobey God, as you write, they twisted God's words. The serpent twisted God's words, and then Adam and Eve twisted God's words. And then when God came down and said, did you eat from the garden, they blamed God.

So they blamed God or blamed the serpent?

They blamed the serpent. And then they— I think Adam said, the woman you gave me.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Yes, the woman you gave me told me.

Everybody was at fault except him.

Yes. So if this is a story about choice— well, let me rephrase it. Do you think that there— that God is disapproving of this choice?

Of course.

So do you think God would have preferred for us to just stay innocent and docile in the Garden of Eden? Because that's what perplexes me.

I don't know what God would prefer. There's a great Hebrew phrase. It's only 3 words in Hebrew. It's a few more in English because Hebrew can contract words into one. "Luyedati v'hayitiv." If I knew him, I'd be him. So I never speculate. I can't say never. I tend not to speculate on what God would do, will do. I only speculate on what God God wants to teach me and wants me to do. That's, that's my 99% preoccupation, right? It's a completely legitimate question you asked, though. Presumably, but not definitely, it was God's intention that the humans stay in the Garden of Eden, somewhat childlike, obviously. But the story is not about God. The story is about man. We don't want to live in the Garden of Eden. We think we do. It's a maturing story. You think you want to live in the Garden of Eden. Well, guess what? You rather live with the potential of real suffering, right? But have free— but have free will and experience all of life and experience sex as sex, not just as an act of procreation like eating is an act of digestion.

Well, this is why I, A, I brought this up because I was just planning on bringing it up, period, because I'm interested in it, but B, it relates to our discussion about suffering. I do think the Adam and Eve story in a way conveys that there is something ennobling about suffering. That's where I agree with you about the— it is being presented as the choice of man, where it's saying, look, you would rather live in a world with suffering because a world with suffering means that you have free will and you are living a full life, even if that full life comes with bad things.

And more joy.

Would you agree? Both, right? Absolutely. And with more joy.

So, okay, that's, that's a very insightful view. But that's when Christians speak about noble suffering. I don't think they're referring to suffering for the sake of suffering. They're saying suffering for the sake of suffering.

They are saying it.

They are.

Right.

Right. And by the way, I gave the Jewish-Christian difference on suffering. I did not say which one I thought was right because the truth is I think they're both right.

I agree.

There's a part of me that says that the Jewish idea, you know, we got to find cures for disease, we got to alleviate people's suffering as much as possible. By the way, Christians say that too. Of course, Christians built all these hospitals. They send these missionaries to the poorest places on earth, right, to cure them of diseases. I have Christian friends who are doctors who go to, you know, the poorest places in Africa to perform surgery for free on African kids. They obviously— so Christians may think and do that suffering is Christ-like or is ennobling, etc., etc., but they certainly act to reduce it.

Yes.

So I want to make that clear. But for Jews, there is no— well, there is, there is a, um, there is, there are notions among the the ancient rabbis that suffering is God's form of love for us. There are phrases that speak of suffering in those. They're not generally quoted, but they do exist. I'm sure Jesus was familiar with them. But by the way, when Jesus is crucified, he does say to God, 'Why did you abandon me?' Right. So he doesn't—

I appreciated that line when I read the New Testament.

Well, it gives the New Testament great credibility that it kept that line in there. Yes. Oh God, oh my God, my God, why have you abandoned me?

When I read that line, I was reminded of what you said in Genesis about how God— it's a— God said it's not good for man to be alone when he created woman. And you wrote, God here is acknowledging that a relationship with him isn't enough, right? In a way, it's not preserving God as this perfect figure.

Well, even if he's a perfect figure, he's not enough.

He's not—

God is necessary but not sufficient. God himself is saying— because Adam wasn't alone, he, he, he knew God, right?

So I appreciate those moments in the Bible where they're acknowledging the human reaction. That—

well, that's two things. That's the whole credibility issue.

So I want to ask you— and I, by the way, I really do take your point, and I deeply appreciate this point that you make about, look, sometimes the technicalities of this stuff does not matter. What matters is the message that God is trying to convey. Whenever I have debates with people about religion, they often focus on, well, how could a serpent speak if God created animals to not speak? And I say, again, that doesn't matter. Why don't we focus on the lesson that God is trying to convey here? I'm going to break my rule, though, and sort of ask a more technical question. So, just humor me for a moment. Why do you think God created that binary that he did in the Garden of Eden? That either you live a life that is innocent and docile and without suffering and with immortality, really kind of a utopian life in the Garden of Eden, or you eat from the Tree of Knowledge, you know good and bad, you suffer, but you also live a joyful life and you die. Why do you think he presented those two options that way?

So the alternative would have been that we eat from the Tree of Knowledge, we do know suffering, but not as much suffering as, as has happened. You remind me— and it's a highly— sorry, it's a compliment of my wife— I would say Sue comes up with a question for God about every other day, and it just cracks me I think I told you should write a book, Sue's Questions for God.

I love that.

And this, this would be one of them.

Wife is Sanskrit for flaw finder.

Yeah, but yeah, well, that's flaw finder and God, right? I said it was flaw finder and husband, right?

Well, you actually did just say flaw finder. You didn't say in husband, but I know you meant—

Oh, really?

Yeah, you just said it.

Oh, I thought I said in husband. That's hilarious. Uh, I, I don't have an answer to that. Again, if I knew him, I'd be him. I can only explain the text. The text makes it clear that we— to me anyway, this is my read of the Garden of Eden, as you so pointed out and value, which I'm thrilled you do— the human being confronted with the choice of the Garden of Eden with no suffering and the whole world that we now have with suffering, we, we would opt for the latter, right? I mean, otherwise, why, why would the— why would Adam and Eve have eaten from the tree, right? They would think, what, jeopardize this utopia? What, what, am I out of my mind?

Well, I guess— and I'm just thinking out loud here— I guess free will really does require the existence of suffering.

Of course, because you could make the wrong choice.

Because you— exactly, because you can make the wrong choice.

Yes.

Well, I have another— I mean, I have a million questions to ask you, but this one just popped into my head. One of the things that I love the most about your Torah commentary is that you look at the way that God designed the world and you show that the functional and also like moral and spiritual purpose of it. So let me ask you about this practical design of the world and what you think the lesson is from it. I am astounded by the dazzling array of emotions that people have. It's not just happy and sad. If you look inside, you know, the, the category of happy, there's excitement, which is different from Being enthusiastic, which is different from contentment, which is different from joy, which is different from pride. Similarly, on the, you know, sad side, if you will, under the umbrella of sadness, there's grief, which is different from anger, which is different from longing, et cetera. Why do you think there is such a dazzling array of emotions? And by the way, Sorry, I know I'm going on, but also within emo— emotions, I've often thought it's, it's so interesting and complex that within certain emotions, within like bad things, for instance, there are good ingredients. For instance, someone who is ruthless often has the good qualities of being disciplined or being ambitious. And similarly, someone who is optimistic, which is a good thing, may within them have bad ingredients of being, um, too willing to accept things as they are, etc. Why do you think God created this ever-complex—

Well, I, I've never thought of it that way, but it's, it's clearly true, and it's a credit to God. I mean, that is what enables the richness of life, right? I'm crazy about life.

I know you are.

Yeah. And, and part of it it has always been, has been a big chunk of it actually, has been understanding people. So, you know, and many of my listeners know, when I was in high school, I wrote, I know what my mission in life is, to influence people to the good, which is remarkable on so many levels that I would even think I could influence people, right? At, you know, I was 16 years old.

And that you valued that at 16. You don't value that at 16, or ever.

Yes, it was— I'm not normal. So, just a fact. I don't mean it in a bad sense, obviously, but I wasn't a normal kid. I was a happy kid, kids liked me. In other words, you wouldn't have thought of me as abnormal, but I knew inside I wasn't normal. But I had another ambition as great as influencing people people to the good, understanding people, understanding life. Right. That was a— that was part of the reason I, I've traveled to 130 countries. I wanted to see as much of this world as, as possible. So that richness— so I think, Sean, is— what is our time here? Yes. All right, we've gone, we've gone over.

We could go for, you know, it's clear we could actually—

oh no, there's no— we could do a marathon.

We, we really could.

I couldn't agree with you more. Yes. It's not. So I wanted to make one final point about understanding people. And oh yes, so I've come— you would think I would have known this a long time ago, but I've actually— I came to it through Donald Trump, interestingly. And it is really helpful for people. I know, I think I tried this once on the Happiness Hour. We need to understand everyone is a package. And it's sort of like, just take, it's almost silly, but it's not too silly. You go to the supermarket, come back with a package of goods. One of them leaks. You don't throw away all the rest of the package.

Great analogy.

Good. All right, I'm glad it works. Every one of us— I am, you are, Trump is— obviously some to a more, a greater extent than others, and some are just leaking bags. I mean, some horrific people, true. But yes, most people are packages. And that's the old— there's a whole Hebrew, an old Hebrew saying Uh, I— you have your choice in life. If you want honey, you have to be prepared to be stung. You don't want honey, you don't get stung. Or you don't want to get stung, you don't get honey. That's the way life works. And most people opt for stings and honeys. But there are times where I think this thing is not worth it. I'll keep your honey. That's, that's perfectly fine. But that's a good example of a life lesson in light of what you were talking about, the package issue. And by the way, ironically, this is a perfect ending back to the letter that you opened up with. We're— we, like every human, this broadcast is a package that she stopped listening because of a couple of minutes that she didn't enjoy.

That she stopped listening?

Oh, not for me. No, I know, but no, no, I want people to understand. No, it's not for me at all.

I get it.

It is a lesson for everyone listening and for her. So what you do is tune out so that you don't miss all the good stuff in that package, right?

Well, our responsibility is to improve that package.

That's—

that's— you're right. I hear your point.

Yes.

Yep.

That's good stuff. It's always good stuff. Sean, is it good stuff?

He just said he refuses to compliment us.

The problem with Sean is he's very fast and partially lovable.

Only partially.

You find him more than partially lovable.

I adore Sean.

I know, it's disgusting.

If you wanted, you guys, if you think I compliment Dennis, you should hear me compliment Sean.

And I tell you, it's just to suck up so that he does a good job with the video and audio, with the editing.

He doesn't zoom in on a blemish on my face. Love you, Sean. You're great.

That's a good ending. See you next week, everybody.

You got time, you're on the main base, and everybody wants the same. Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.